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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, `  the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything?  it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other.
This even happens with regular remaps to some degree and to an even larger degree with patrol/hold being rebindable:
[I]rradiate
M[i]nes
Siege M[o]de
Patrol/hold becomes super relevant when we think of e.g. Vulture or, more crucial, Mutalisk micro.
Overall all of these things will have *some* impact. The question is how much is 'good' for the game we love. Broodwar being mechanically challenging is part of its core gameplay and appeal after all.
Personally I'm highly skeptical that removing the need to move your left hand at all is a good thing, simply because it makes things easier for everyone when it comes to dexterity and precision.
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On May 21 2017 18:16 Cascade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first.
I'm sorry, I wasn't being too accurate. I ment that keys 0-8 does not matter because blizzard has informed those keys can't be remapped. I disagree with TT1 when he is saying being able to remap rest of the keys doesn't affect the balance. Who knows maybe he has been using 3rd party to also remap his keys before and wants justify this act.
On May 21 2017 18:26 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing  .
I'm up for the bet. How much?
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On May 21 2017 01:26 Dazed_Spy wrote:
No one who cant beat me is going to start beating me because to siege he didnt need to move his hand quite as quickly, and I'm not going to start taking games off Sero because i rearranged my hotkeys a bit.
This is completely irrelevant. It's for people whose skill levels are essentially identical that it will have an effect that matters. And it's only at the highest, competitive level that we should worry about it.
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On May 21 2017 20:29 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 19:53 aQuaSC wrote:On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else. It sounds a little more than elitist, it's self-destructive. "Get off my lawn" That's unfortunately the case here. While I am ok with key-binding, suggesting unlimited unit selection and multi-buliding selection is an instant "Get off my lawn" trigger for me. You call it self-destructive, I call it self-presserving and self-interest. It would rather be self-destructive to go the path many newcomers want to go. They are unlikely to stand for long no matter what changes are made. Veterans on the other hand are already proven in their "loyality" to the game and they know very well what they want, what are their expectation as players/audience and have a strong agreement what minimum features must be preserved.
I never had in mind anything other than custom hotkeys and my "self-destructive" comment was targeted at the last paragraph where FlaShFTW seemingly says that any change is not acceptable no matter what.
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On May 21 2017 21:21 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing . I'm up for the bet. How much?
10 bucks? I'm a poor student
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On May 21 2017 21:21 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 18:16 Cascade wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first. I'm sorry, I wasn't being too accurate. I ment that keys 0-8 does not matter because blizzard has informed those keys can't be remapped. I disagree with TT1 when he is saying being able to remap rest of the keys doesn't affect the balance. Who knows maybe he has been using 3rd party to also remap his keys before and wants justify this act. Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 18:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing . I'm up for the bet. How much?
Building/unit hotkeys wont matter, ability hotkeys won't matter as much at the highest level either (maybe just a bit for a few players). Players like Flash won't care about changing ability keys, he can already irradiate/siege/mine with ease. I bet most of them won't even change their hotkeys. I know for a fact that Scan won't change any of his hotkeys because he's already extremely comfortable playing with the normal keys.
That said ability and building/unit hotkeys will have an impact on lower lvls of play, it'll help lower end players (even players such as myself) to play more efficiently. Innovation uses BW hotkeys in SC2 and he's still a dominant player (whereas everyone else uses super efficient hotkeys), these kinds of stuff have very little impact on the highest lvl of play.
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On May 22 2017 00:25 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 21:21 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 18:16 Cascade wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first. I'm sorry, I wasn't being too accurate. I ment that keys 0-8 does not matter because blizzard has informed those keys can't be remapped. I disagree with TT1 when he is saying being able to remap rest of the keys doesn't affect the balance. Who knows maybe he has been using 3rd party to also remap his keys before and wants justify this act. On May 21 2017 18:26 Ej_ wrote:On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,). I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing . I'm up for the bet. How much? Building/unit hotkeys wont matter, ability hotkeys won't matter as much at the highest level either (maybe just a bit for a few players). Players like Flash won't care about changing ability keys, he can already irradiate/siege/mine with ease. I bet most of them won't even change their hotkeys. I know for a fact that Scan won't change any of his hotkeys because he's already extremely comfortable playing with the normal keys. That said ability and building/unit hotkeys will have an impact on lower lvls of play, it'll help lower end players (even players such as myself) to play more efficiently. Innovation uses BW hotkeys in SC2 and he's still a dominant player (whereas everyone else uses super efficient hotkeys), these kinds of stuff have very little impact on the highest lvl of play.
Again, there is no point on referring to SC2 when mechanics does not play as big part on that game than they do (currently) on bw. I seem to have to repeat this over and over again. And I am pretty damn certain there will be ex-pro terrans switching their hotkeys for irritiade, siege and mines. It really does not take that long to adapt to new hotkeys no matter if you have used the old ones for over a decade. There is no point keeping unit ability keys on the other side of the keyboard when you can move them closer to A-button. You seriously think there is no benefit from doing that?
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On May 21 2017 07:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\
You could apply that to competitive gaming in general, with MOBAs overtaking RTS and less mechanically demanding, but more strategic FPS taking over more mechanically demanding ones (Counterstrike & Quake scenario.) The team based aspect has a lot to do with it but also there has been a shift in gaming apart from the Sc2 boogey man that is used by a lot of unwarranted elitists.
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I must say, that i completely support this and am impressed blizzard is taking the steps to implement this. Kudos.
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On May 20 2017 04:09 Lazare1969 wrote:
When you join a game they need to add an togglable option so people can see who is using custom hotkeys or not in the game lobby.
I really like this idea. Remap is fine but I think its good that players that don't like it can choose to not play people who use it.
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No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so.
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On May 22 2017 03:48 AndAgain wrote:
No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so.
The possibility has been raised already and I can definitely see somebody say "No good reason to do so" as well.
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On May 22 2017 03:54 JungleTerrain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 03:48 AndAgain wrote:
No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so. The possibility has been raised already and I can definitely see somebody say "No good reason to do so" as well.
Because there's strong chance it will create worse gameplay, and no real chance it will create better gameplay. The technical difficulty of the game is perfectly fine as is. Custom hotkeys are only good to lower the hurdle for new players.
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I wholeheartedly agree with TT1. Like I've been saying, it won't change how the game is played as a whole. You look at the high level players and see that a) they are comfortable with their hotkeys b) they are extremely good at adaptation. Think of this as a setting, as opposed to a buff/nerf.
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On May 22 2017 02:21 KrOjah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 07:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\ You could apply that to competitive gaming in general, with MOBAs overtaking RTS and less mechanically demanding, but more strategic FPS taking over more mechanically demanding ones (Counterstrike & Quake scenario.) The team based aspect has a lot to do with it but also there has been a shift in gaming apart from the Sc2 boogey man that is used by a lot of unwarranted elitists.
The problem is that easy games are hard to master. Anyone who played sc2 or mobas at master level know how frustrating it can be. The game becomes unforgiven to small mistakes. But you know, SC2 is not bad because of easier mechanics, it's the design of the game, units, pathing, etc, thats make it more volatile than it should be. It's my thought on the subject 
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On May 22 2017 04:01 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 03:54 JungleTerrain wrote:On May 22 2017 03:48 AndAgain wrote:
No one raised the possibility that tournaments will disallow custom hotkeys. No good reason for them not to do so. The possibility has been raised already and I can definitely see somebody say "No good reason to do so" as well. Because there's strong chance it will create worse gameplay, and no real chance it will create better gameplay. The technical difficulty of the game is perfectly fine as is. Custom hotkeys are only good to lower the hurdle for new players.
We don't know that for sure. Everything in this thread is mostly speculation. We will only know actual effects to gameplay once we've seen people play with these settings within a set of time. Back during the PTR, we didn't get to see top Koreans using these at length so we just don't know yet. Personally I only tried changing the Probe and Pylon hotkeys to "S", and I would not say these had any effects on my gameplay (just a convenience thing, but obviously this is a very mild hotkey change).
And I am mostly playing devil's advocate here.
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On May 22 2017 05:04 StarscreamG1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2017 02:21 KrOjah wrote:On May 21 2017 07:23 StarscreamG1 wrote:
The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\ You could apply that to competitive gaming in general, with MOBAs overtaking RTS and less mechanically demanding, but more strategic FPS taking over more mechanically demanding ones (Counterstrike & Quake scenario.) The team based aspect has a lot to do with it but also there has been a shift in gaming apart from the Sc2 boogey man that is used by a lot of unwarranted elitists. The problem is that easy games are hard to master. Anyone who played sc2 or mobas at master level know how frustrating it can be. The game becomes unforgiven to small mistakes. But you know, SC2 is not bad because of easier mechanics, it's the design of the game, units, pathing, etc, thats make it more volatile than it should be. It's my thought on the subject
Ya I think it's more design issues. Not that I think Sc2 is bad at all, but it did not reach its potential. Not doing better in Korea was the biggest fail. Personally I haven't played the game in years and doubt I ever will again. Nothing wrong with the pathing mind, it actually a less volatile game in that regard. Units react well to instructions generally.
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i'm sorry, i think the game should be EXACTLY like 1.16.1 other than whatever "graphical improvements" they're adding. i consider any modification to broodwar from a gameplay perspective a downgrade, and i think it'll just end up splitting the kr community.. which sucks, because i'm assuming 1.16 will eventually die because fish will prioritize the casuals and blizzard will obviously say no to 1.16.1 tournies and as a result i'll be left with this shitty noobified knockoff with key reybindings.. we've had the game for nearly 20 years, through blizzard's multiple attempts to kill it, and now they finally found a way to do it in for me... "we're not going to touch the iconic gameplay" my fucking ass. everytime i lose it won't be like it has been for the past 20ish years: "wow, that guy really played well, his macro was on point!" instead it'll be "hm. i wonder if he optimally rebinded his keys instead of actually having good mechanics." it's a travesty to the game's legacy.
edit~ 1.16.1
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On May 22 2017 09:19 Endymion wrote:
i'm sorry, i think the game should be EXACTLY like 1.16.1 other than whatever "graphical improvements" they're adding. i consider any modification to broodwar from a gameplay perspective a downgrade, and i think it'll just end up splitting the kr community.. which sucks, because i'm assuming 1.16 will eventually die because fish will prioritize the casuals and blizzard will obviously say no to 1.16.1 tournies and as a result i'll be left with this shitty noobified knockoff with key reybindings.. we've had the game for nearly 20 years, through blizzard's multiple attempts to kill it, and now they finally found a way to do it in for me... "we're not going to touch the iconic gameplay" my fucking ass. everytime i lose it won't be like it has been for the past 20ish years: "wow, that guy really played well, his macro was on point!" instead it'll be "hm. i wonder if he optimally rebinded his keys instead of actually having good mechanics." it's a travesty to the game's legacy.
edit~ 1.16.1
lol you are the epitome of a old school bw player stuck in his ways. I've been playing bw for 20 years as well and I'm not opposed to the change. They are leaving control keys and f keys, it's literally just the ability and structure hotkeys.
As others have said the pro's currently play near perfectly with default keys so it won't make a difference rebinding for them. Noobs aren't suddenly gonna start randomly taking games off pro's because of these magical rebinds. There is so much more to winning than rebinding a few keys.
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On May 22 2017 09:19 Endymion wrote:
everytime i lose it won't be like it has been for the past 20ish years: "wow, that guy really played well, his macro was on point!" instead it'll be "hm. i wonder if he optimally rebinded his keys instead of actually having good mechanics." it's a travesty to the game's legacy.
How is that any different to the way it's played now? Anyone you play atm could be using a key rebinder. Other people have already mentioned they know of top players playing in online tournaments who rebound their keys. The only thing this changes is adding support for it in the UI.
IMO if you're looking to blame your loss on what the other guy may or may not have been doing rather than your own skills then you've got the wrong attitude.
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EPT
