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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, `  the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything?  it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other. "To preserve competitive balance" is not correct. "To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of saying it...
The only balance that matters, is at the highest lvl of play. So as u agree that control groups and F keys can have an effect on play.
The management of hotkeys is a resource that requires skill and effort to learn/master, players can use the management to differentiate themselves from others the 8,9,0 keys are not exactly comfortable to reach for everyone. There are players willing to put effort into being able effectively use them (jaedong as a player has mentioned he doesnt use those hotkeys simply because when he started they were bothersome and far away), compared that to bisu's hotkey arrangements where he uses all of them and not only that but he continuously reassigns them through the game (unlike standard play like stork's control groups where 1,2,3,4 are units 5 is obs, 6,7,8 are production 9,0 are nex/production)
Its a part of brood war that allows differentiation of players tho its effect may be smaller than say unlimited control group selection, the principle is the same. Your removing something that affects one player from another.
The main point of blizzard's post at the bottom is to explain why control groups are not going to be rebindable, not to argue semantics.
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Japan11286 Posts
On May 20 2017 17:55 gngfn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 16:34 arb wrote:
Speaking of random stuff, did anyone notice they finally renamed the Robotics Support to Robotics Support Bay? People have been calling it the wrong name for years It was always called Robotics Support Bay in the tooltip in the build menu. It's just called Protoss Robotics Support in the main window thing because the word "Bay" doesn't fit.
I've only noticed 'Bay' isn't on the main window thing again after like 15 years lol. I've always assumed it has 'Bay' after I kinda forgot about this. Wow.
I think making movement hotkeys rebindable will make it too easy for players (not that I mind that, although I want some mechanics to be a bit challenging), but the real question is will easier patrol-micro etc change competitive balance?
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The ultimate solution is if obviously:
Contextual Hotkeys or Optimized Hotkeys
to be able to assign hotkeys depending on which unit/building is selected
Example: If you got a unit:
Q - Patroll
A - Attack (or switched with Patroll)
S - Stop
D - Hold Position
more specifically a - high templar:
- W - Merge
- E - Storm
- R - Hallucination
If you've selected a building with either units, upgrades or abilities one would use Q, W, E, R, A, S, D, F
A Probe would have to be able to use all action commands (when selected in a group with attack units) and have enough keys for 2 types of buildings, so:
Q - Patroll, A - Attack, S - Stop, D - Hold Position, W - Resources, E - Building, R - Advanced Building. When selecting to build the keys reset and and the following take over: Q - Nexus, W - Pylon, E - Gateway, R- Cypernetics Core, A - Cannon, S - Shield Battery, D - Forge, F - Citadel, or if you want an advanced building pressing the other modifier and have Q - Stargate, W - Robo, E - Templar Archives, R - Robo Support Bay, F - Fleet Beacon, A - Arbiter Tribunal
My optimized hotkey setup layout:
Q - Patroll, Probe, Nexus, Stargate, Zealot, Corsair, Air Weapons, Ground Weapons, Scarab Damage
A - Attack, Cannon, Dragoon, Carrier, Air Armor, Ground Armor, Scarab Capacity
S - Stop, Shield Battery, Scout, High Templar, Air Shield, Ground Shield, Research Storm, Research Stasis, Mind Control, Interceptor Capacity
D - Hold Position, Forge, Dark Tempar, Arbiter, Research Hallucination,
W - Resources, Robo, Observer, Dragoon Range, Merge, Build Scarabs, Interceptors, Zealot Legspeed, Observer Sight, Templar Energy
E - Building -> Gateway, Templar Archives, Storm, Feedback, Shuttle, Shuttle Speed, Drop off / Pick up, Dark Templar Energy, Arbiter Energy, Corsair Energy, Recharge Shields
R - Cybernetics Core, Advanced Building -> Robo Support Bay, Hallucination, Recall, Mind Control, Research Recall
F - Citadel, Fleet Beacon, Scout Speed
Control groups: `(~) to 5 ^ z to v
Positional: tab, caps, windows key
Fkeys to switch between online in-game-themed radio frequencies (one can dreams)
I'd switch Ctrl to Alt, Shift to Space, Alt to Shift and Space to Ctrl.
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On May 20 2017 19:59 SHODAN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 19:50 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:44 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:39 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:34 SHODAN wrote:On May 20 2017 19:28 TT1 wrote:On May 20 2017 19:17 SHODAN wrote:"To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" this part makes no sense to me. why do they single out control groups hotkeys? what makes control group hotkeys so much more important to competitive balance than the other hotkeys? I was hoping to change 7, 8, 9, 0 to Q, W, E, ` the fact that you wanted to change 7 8 9 0 to closer/more accessible hotkeys doesnt tell you anything? it tells me nothing. if every player has the option to remap control groups, then every player enjoys the same advantage. but you seem to be under the impression that remappable control groups will favour one player over the other... spell it out for me. how would remappable control groups upset the competitive balance? everyone plays the same game right now as well. so you tell me, whats the problem? this does not answer my question. the problem is this statement: "To preserve competitive balance, F keys and Control Groups will still not be remappable" player 1 uses traditional 'M' hotkey to build marine. player 2 uses remapped 'A' hotkey to build marine. player 2 has an advantage, because A is more accessible to the left hand. player 1 uses traditional '7' hotkey for scan. player 2 uses remapped 'Q' hotkey for scan. player 2 has an advantage, because Q is more accessible to the left hand. why is it OK to remap marine, but not OK to remap a control group? both have the exact same effect on competitive balance. Players at the highest lvl of play have no issue producing marines or probes, unit hotkeys have no impact on the gameplay for them (they only do at lower levels). That said there's a separation between players when it comes to f key and control group usage and that has an impact on how someone macros, micros, engages battles etc. Hotkey and Fkeys have an impact on gameplay even at the highest level (and so do hotkeys like Patrol which is why a lot of us are against having it be rebindable), unit hotkeys don't. Being able to change unit hotkeys lowers the entry barrier for newer players without having an impact on the highest level of play. Changing f keys or control groups will have an impact on the highest level of play tho which shouldn't be allowed to happen. sure, I understand that control / F keys would have a massive impact at the highest level of play. but impact is not the same as balance. I don't understand how the impact would benefit one race over the other. "To preserve competitive balance" is not correct. "To preserve traditional mechanics" is a better way of saying it...
Rebinding control group hotkeys would help some races more than others. If Jaedong doesn't use the hotkeys 8-0 and boxes units to move them late game giving him three more easy army hotkeys would give him much more army control. On the other hand Protoss doesn't benefit nearly as much because a max Protoss army already fits on 5 or 6 hotkeys.
Anyone saying that SC2 lets you rebind those keys and it didn't change anything needs realize they are different games. BW has a 12 unit selection limit and SC2 has smart casting and a button to let you select all your army units on the map at once.
I'm personally hoping tournaments use standardized hotkeys.
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I'm personally hoping tournaments use standardized hotkeys.
Well...they wont. If the official patch on the game is that custom hotkeys are acceptable, and then we go months where tens of thousands of ladder games are played with custom hotkeys, custom hotkeys will be accepted invariably. Even if they do increase a persons ability to play the game through mechanical simplification, bw truly is a strategy game. No one who cant beat me is going to start beating me because to siege he didnt need to move his hand quite as quickly, and I'm not going to start taking games off Sero because i rearranged my hotkeys a bit.
The games too complex for something like this to totally upend everything.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play.
I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it.
I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top.
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On May 20 2017 04:58 chocorush wrote:
Oh no, it's so unfair that you unskilled players no longer have to risk hitting f1 on the keyboard anymore, because that was a very important skill to have.
I had just removed my F1 key whenever I was playing starcraft. Can't press a key that isn't there.
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On May 20 2017 06:46 highsis wrote:
They should allow remapping all hotkeys, allow unit groups more than 12(but disallow more than 11 air units from stacking), allow multiple building control groups.
It is supposed to be a 'stregegy' game not a APM competition. Let strategy, decision making, and micro decide the victor instead of how fast your hands can do the same repetitive work.
I was GM in WOL and I do have fast hands but I just despise how strategy games have been without strategy. Both in SC1 and SC2 faster player is always favoured over smart player.
I think UI improvement is always a good thing. ALWAYS.
There isn't too much to do, it is either mechanical skill or RNG as happen with TBS games.
Even though im a bad player prefer to lose a competitive game because i wasn't fast enough not because the dice hated me.
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The "funniest" thing we get from this topic is there are a lot of people that want BW to become more strategy focus and less mechanical. That means how much SC2 has failed, unfortunately :\
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On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top.
Yeah it seems like people believe that all of a sudden players are going to get worse/better at the highest level because of hotkeys. It's really not going to change anything at all. Hero is not all of a sudden going to start crushing Flash/Last/Bisu/etc just because he switched hotkeys.
Some new player isn't going to come out of nowhere and start beating top players because of hotkey changes. I would bet money that Flash/Last could still use default hotkeys while Hero or any foreigner/korean switches theirs and the results would be the same as when they used to default hotkeys.
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On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top.
You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level.
JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
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On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
Only thing i think ill be changing is siege and mines
probably to E(siege) and Q(mines) anything else i'm not gonna bother though
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On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
TT1 seemed to say the opposite, unless I misunderstood. That changing the ability and building hotkeys won't change much in competitive, while changing the number or F hotkeys will. Seems from the OP that blizzard agrees. I never really made it up from D on iccup, so I wouldn't know myself. I do know that I'll be happy to change hotkey when I come back from sc2, and that I'd happily change the number and F hotkeys as well. But I understand that pro-level balance has to come first.
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On May 21 2017 11:48 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 02:14 EsportsJohn wrote:On May 20 2017 15:43 erin[go]bragh wrote:
Hotkey optimization providing some measurable advantage is an interesting theory but I feel like some people are skipping the data gathering step and just concluding that it must be advantageous because your fingers won't have to travel as far. I'd love to see some actual data on this. Didn't someone show that SC2 players who switched to The Core layout didn't see any significant effect on win rate? I seem to remember reading about it but I don't have a link so I might just be pulling that out of my ass. Regardless it would be cool to see some hard data.
That being said, if you assume that optimizing hotkeys provides a tangible advantage it seems weird to me to restrict the control group and F keys, which function the same for all three races. Structure and unit hotkeys however are different for each race and so by definition offer different benefits.
A related anecdote: Jaedong has said that he uses 1-3 for units, 4-7 for hatcheries, and doesn't use 8-0 at all. I feel like people vastly overestimate the effect hotkeys have on the end result of actual gameplay. I'm not saying the effect is zero, I'm just saying it's most likely so minuscule that it can be easily overlooked against the backdrop of every other variable that has an effect on your play. I brought up the Core several times when talking about custom hotkeys. It helped a lot of intermediate players who didn't make full use of their hotkeys improve, but there was not a single case of someone going from Gold to Masters in a few weeks or anything like that. At the top level, only a few foreigners adopted it (the only notable ones being StarNaN and PiG). Neither player had outstanding success, or even improved success, after switching over, and I don't know if either stuck with it. I constantly bring it up because it's a perfect example of how having a "perfect" keyboard layout still has a nominal affect on how well people play. The reason why many players improved with it was largely due to the fact that they became conscious of using hotkeys regularly and consistently. Changing buttons on the keyboard speeds up the process a little bit and maybe opens up an extra 10-20 eAPM for the player, but far more APM and skill comes with mouse accuracy, and that's why Jaedong is so good even without using the extra hotkeys at the top. You're talking about different game tho that has way easier mechanics to begin with. It's a different game come on, you're comparing it to bw that is ridicilously harder mechanics when you reach a fairly moderate competetive level. JD not using the 8-0 keys doesn't really prove anything as they're hotkey groups. But it certainly does sound like JD knows that having far away hotkeys is a huge disadvantage (PS. I=for irritiade, I=lay mines, P= patrol, O=siege and unsiege,).
I'm willing to bet you money that no ex-pro will switch any of their hotkeys, which should ultimately prove that it doesn't strengthen whatver race you're playing  .
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United States10266 Posts
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else.
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Does broodwar also oblige a standardized keyboard? because there's compact laptop style keyboards that have the f-keys way closer than on a standard keyboard. Does using one of those change game balance too? What a weird discussion this is...
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On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else.
It sounds a little more than elitist, it's self-destructive.
"Get off my lawn"
On May 21 2017 19:53 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
Does broodwar also oblige a standardized keyboard? because there's compact laptop style keyboards that have the f-keys way closer than on a standard keyboard. Does using one of those change game balance too? What a weird discussion this is..
Why switch from ball mouses to optic/laser ones was even allowed? They give you an upper hand against someone who plays on the former, make the game detect ball mouse and not run if a modern one is plugged in.
I'm curious whether people will change their minds or not if collective Korean scene gives a definite ok to custom hotkeys, maybe they are more elite than them.
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On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else.
If you make sc:r as a gift to the people already playing sc:bw, then I agree with you, makes sense.
If you want to bring in more people to the game, then I think it's important to understand the potential newcomers or returners. Not blindly following whatever people want of course, but take into consideration.
I get the impression that people are a bit split between these two angles of approach and I think blizzard is trying to do changes that they think fit both of these.
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On May 20 2017 11:27 FiWiFaKi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 11:18 playa wrote:
People still use lack of APM for why they lose in BW. Sad. If you can't win with around 150 APM, then you don't know what you're doing. When OOV was the best player in the world and had ridiculous win streaks, he was always around 220 APM. If you can't win with considerably less than that vs non Koreans... jesus...
BW takes no more APM than SC 2 does. You just have to actually hotkey stuff, unlike Zergs in GM. BW takes tremendous APM, and it's also a bit deceiving, because you might have 150apm because you're inefficient, for example you might have decent APM because of muta micro, or quickly building many zerglings at once, but when someone like Lancerx plays with 150apm and usually floats top 10 on iccup, his apm if he played like me would be at least 200. Also protoss is a bit of the exception, I've played with many people on Shieldbattery, and I don't think I've ever seen a B or higher zerg or terran average less than 200apm (of course I only have a sample pool of like 30 people I've played with at that level). If you have lower APM you can try to combat it by playing shorter games, but myself, playing at usually around 140apm, the difference between TT1 and myself is night and day when it comes to trying to manage 4 or 5 bases, even though I know exactly what to do. Either way, when I started BW my APM was 60, and now it's a lot higher, and I'm still extremely inefficient with my hotkey usage. APM isn't really a hard cap, by playing smarter you will increase your APM significantly. For example by building gateways next to one another you'll build units faster than if they're spread out, and therefore also have higher APM. Hotkeys will tremendously increase APM, etc.
Not true. I was around B+ with Terran when I had 150'ish APM. Beat like every ToT member with that APM. The closer you get to 200, the more preferable, but it doesn't mean you're going to play like a noob.
You don't need a lot of APM to play T vs P. And, anything around 200 APM is sufficient for T vs Z. With Toss.... simply having a pulse is enough. No APM excuses vs non Koreans. It's about having proper mechanics. Using F keys, hotkeying things properly. By simply being a spam monkey, you're going to inflate your APM by at least 50. So, you can have 150 APM and accomplish even more than a 200 apm player, who no one would bat an eye at for playing too slowly.
The most important thing, as always, is knowing what to do. No matter how fast you play, if you're not making the right decisions, you're simply shooting yourself in the foot faster. I would say APM was more important in SC 2, because the game wasn't as complex, so by simply doing more, odds are your chances of winning increased.
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On May 21 2017 19:53 aQuaSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2017 18:35 FlaShFTW wrote:
im curious how many people in this thread who are in support for custom hotkeys... and then custom F and control group keys... and then even unlimited unit selection and buliding selection are either newcomers who haven't played BW seriously in the past, or are vets. Just a curious thought here.
as elitist as this might sound: newcomers, you do not, and should not, have a say in how a game should be changed just because you want it. you are a newcomer for a reason. this game was not designed for you, then you should be playing something else. It sounds a little more than elitist, it's self-destructive. "Get off my lawn"
That's unfortunately the case here. While I am ok with key-binding, suggesting unlimited unit selection and multi-buliding selection is an instant "Get off my lawn" trigger for me.
You call it self-destructive, I call it self-presserving and self-interest. It would rather be self-destructive to go the path many newcomers want to go. They are unlikely to stand for long no matter what changes are made. Veterans on the other hand are already proven in their "loyality" to the game and they know very well what they want, what are their expectation as players/audience and have a strong agreement what minimum features must be preserved.
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EPT
