I have a bunch of questions on the resurgence of BW, it's potential regrowth. Some of them are probably only open for speculation now, but that's interesting as well!
Here they are:
How big is the viewership for this ASL? How many viewers has there been on the Starleagues before? How big are the prizepools, how have they grown?
How popular is BW in pcbangs nowadays? Has it increased as the BW pro scene has re-emerged? KT is a big company. Will others come along? More importantly is OGN or MBC looking to get back into it?
Is AfreecaTV doing well in South Korea? Is streaming viewed as a serious competitor to E-sports on TV? Is streaming taking over in korea as well as in the west, as in MBC, OGN having a lot of their views from vods and non-tv streams?
Do you think any of TBLS would like to join a team again or would they prefer a personal sponsorship, the freedom of living of their streaming, tournament winnings, eventual sponsorship? Why is Stork so nice and will win this ASL? Do you think OGN, MBC look at BW as a competitor of viewers to lol, or as a possible new income?
On January 04 2017 08:41 ruypture wrote: not super qualified to answer this many questions but mbc doesnt do gaming anymore, and I don't think ogn does anything game related either.
lol what? ogn still remains the #1 gaming channel in korea. they just don't do any starcraft.
On January 04 2017 09:50 RPGabe wrote: I don't know if BW regrowth is going to happen in the long term, but I'm hype for ASL and have roped several friends into following it.
I'm doing my part!
Glad to hear it!
Theoretically that could mean that bw will happen in the long term.These friends don't happen to be Korean E-sport-bigshots?
On January 04 2017 09:10 SirGlinG wrote: So E-sports in south korea is pretty much all streaming services today?
No, OGN broadcasts LoL, and a few other games.
It actually wanted to get back into televising Brood War with SSL, but the SbenuCEO got into some legal troubles so I think they either got scared off again, or hopefully they'll try again producing a league on their own, without KESPA and a Proleague it might be less of a headache for them to just run a Starleague.
Yes Brood War is thriving as a streaming content in Korea as of now. Every Brood War content you see today are based off this platform, and the fans who support the living of these ex-professionals who have become streamers who sometimes compete in tournaments.
No Brood War as a competitive gaming scene has been dead for years with zero investment from big corporations. Perhaps if you really lower the standards, and compare the current Brood War scene to some other scenes based on other gaming titles, where streamers compete for prize money in various tournaments (not for the prestige, but mainly as an advertisement for their streaming), yes the competitive scene has room for growth in the sense that there is sufficient viewership, personal sponsors, and increased success of internet streaming as a content in general.
What you see today is not professional Brood War. Even the ex-professionals have said as much. It's casual streaming with tournaments hosted as a service for the thousands of fans who have supported these streaming careers. Any growth you see is made off the pockets of generous Korean Brood War fans, while the corporate sponsors have had minimal role, unless you count Afreeca TV, who has been a fairly good host to the Brood War streaming in general. Yes there are some sponsorship here and there, including some recent involvement from KT to cash in on the viewerbase, now that the Korean fans have shown their willingness to support the livelihood of dozens of Brood War streamers. Maybe more will take participation, but the root cause, and the pillars that support the streaming scene today are not these sponsors who would have left the scene for dead had the generous, true fans of Brood War not been involved in making streaming a viable career option for these ex-professionals.
On January 04 2017 10:34 Letmelose wrote: Short answer.
Yes Brood War is thriving as a streaming content in Korea as of now. Every Brood War content you see today are based off this platform, and the fans who support the living of these ex-professionals who have become streamers who sometimes compete in tournaments.
No Brood War as a competitive gaming scene has been dead for years with zero investment from big corporations. Perhaps if you really lower the standards, and compare the current Brood War scene to some other scenes based on other gaming titles, where streamers compete for prize money in various tournaments (not for the prestige, but mainly as an advertisement for their streaming), yes the competitive scene has room for growth in the sense that there is sufficient viewership, personal sponsors, and increased success of internet streaming as a content in general.
What you see today is not professional Brood War. Even the ex-professionals have said as much. It's casual streaming with tournaments hosted as a service for the thousands of fans who have supported these streaming careers. Any growth you see is due made off the pockets of Korean Brood War fans, and the corporate sponsors have had minimal role in that, unless you count Afreeca TV, who has been a fairly good host to the Brood War streaming in general. Yes there are some sponsorship here and there, including some recent involvement from KT to cash in on the viewerbase, now that the Korean fans have shown their willingness to support the livelihood of dozens of Brood War streamers. Maybe more will take participation, but the root cause, and the pillars that support the streaming scene today are not these sponsors who would have left the scene for dead had the generous, true fans of Brood War not been involved in making streaming a viable career option for these ex-professionals.
Yes, I definitely get the vibe like the ASL is basically an advertisement for the players on the side of Afreeca, it is in their interest to promote the players using their service, and it is in the interest of the players to play in it to keep their relevance alive.
What I'm wondering is;
1. How sustainable is the scene currently?
2. How many Brood War streamers can Afreeca actually support, I see Flash, Bisu, Shuttle, Sea, etc, get plenty of viewers, but what happens to less popular streamers like say Tyson or Sky, are they getting forced of the service now that bigger BW names are back? Did their audience diminish, can we expect them to leave the streaming scene and find another job?
3. Are there any mussings on whether OGN is willing to give Brood War another shot, they already tried it with SSL, but since Sonic got into hot water did they decide it is simply too much of a risk? Or furthermore is there any chance we get any "big" league besides ASL, for the longest time I thought it was going to be SSL alongside Kongdoo, but with SSL gone, I'm a bit worried that this is it.
4. Is there any chance we might ever get any dedicated Teamleague-type event?
On January 04 2017 10:34 Letmelose wrote: Short answer.
Yes Brood War is thriving as a streaming content in Korea as of now. Every Brood War content you see today are based off this platform, and the fans who support the living of these ex-professionals who have become streamers who sometimes compete in tournaments.
No Brood War as a competitive gaming scene has been dead for years with zero investment from big corporations. Perhaps if you really lower the standards, and compare the current Brood War scene to some other scenes based on other gaming titles, where streamers compete for prize money in various tournaments (not for the prestige, but mainly as an advertisement for their streaming), yes the competitive scene has room for growth in the sense that there is sufficient viewership, personal sponsors, and increased success of internet streaming as a content in general.
What you see today is not professional Brood War. Even the ex-professionals have said as much. It's casual streaming with tournaments hosted as a service for the thousands of fans who have supported these streaming careers. Any growth you see is due made off the pockets of Korean Brood War fans, and the corporate sponsors have had minimal role in that, unless you count Afreeca TV, who has been a fairly good host to the Brood War streaming in general. Yes there are some sponsorship here and there, including some recent involvement from KT to cash in on the viewerbase, now that the Korean fans have shown their willingness to support the livelihood of dozens of Brood War streamers. Maybe more will take participation, but the root cause, and the pillars that support the streaming scene today are not these sponsors who would have left the scene for dead had the generous, true fans of Brood War not been involved in making streaming a viable career option for these ex-professionals.
Yes, I definitely get the vibe like the ASL is basically an advertisement for the players on the side of Afreeca, it is in their interest to promote the players using their service, and it is in the interest of the players to play in it to keep their relevance alive.
What I'm wondering is;
1. How sustainable is the scene currently?
2. How many Brood War streamers can Afreeca actually support, I see Flash, Bisu, Shuttle, Sea, etc, get plenty of viewers, but what happens to less popular streamers like say Tyson or Sky, are they getting forced of the service now that bigger BW names are back? Did their audience diminish, can we expect them to leave the streaming scene and find another job?
3. Are there any mussings on whether OGN is willing to give Brood War another shot, they already tried it with SSL, but since Sonic got into hot water did they decide it is simply too much of a risk? Or furthermore is there any chance we get any "big" league besides ASL, for the longest time I thought it was going to be SSL alongside Kongdoo, but with SSL gone, I'm a bit worried that this is it.
4. Is there any chance we might ever get any dedicated Teamleague-type event?
1. As long as the generous Korean fans keep up their donations, who knows. Streaming in general is a very fickle business. That's not specific to Brood War. 2. Sky and Tyson has around 200~300 viewers. Tyson earned around $2,500, this month according the source below (in Korean). More popular streamers like Sea, and Flash earned around ten times as much this month. Of course, Terror[fOu], reigns supreme above all Brood War streamers, but he has become more of an Afreeca TV icon, rather than the pure Brood War streamer he started off as.
3. No idea. From what I've heard, Ongamenet is doing fine with their League of Legends content. And perhaps you know the extent to which how they like to keep sticking what is tried and tested. It's why they fought so hard to keep Brood War as their main content despite Blizzard suing their asses off when they didn't televise Starcraft 2. I don't think there's any real incentive to clog up the schedule with Brood War, although Ongamenet does have its roots in Brood War. 4. Anything is possible. If it makes within the realm of this streaming era, it could happen. I think you're better asking people like classicyellow83 on upcoming future events.
Thanks for your reply! I have the same thought on how OGN would consider this. They're at a safe place now with Lol, why risk that? It's about money. What I can see happen now though is separare support for the players, as in Samsung Khan supporting Stork, hwaseung supporting JD, Kt Flash etc. That's not the investment of a whole team 365days a year. It's a safe small investment with a lot to gain. But then comes the possibility of confucius pride and money in case Afreeca has a deal with them now and wouldnt allow sponsors like them. Does aeeca have a deal like this or do they simply want them just stream through their service?
If that would happen though, then the money would grow, the financial interest in being a main sponsor for a starleague could grow. And samsung supporting one player could easily lead to supporting one more. A slow snowball effect like this could lead to a small teamhouse. More "teams" could do this.
Thinking of these steps of growth from multiple old teams or new ones, teamhouses could come alive and with them a teamleague. Kespa was once there, so was pro league. knowing how to organize such a thing is there, the amount of fans who once followed BW and still like the game is huge.
My point here is that there is a market, there's know-how, it' nnot out of the question that it could grow back into a smaller similar organization of kespas kind.
I didnt like kesPPPa, but my understanding of south korean culture and their e-sport industry tells me that it's the only way for it to grow somewhat closer to what it once was. (Not saying it's the right way). Teams are needed for the game to keep on living. Or another way for amateurs to not completely fall behind the pros. If it's going to be cartied by the stars streaming, then what happens of half of them do their military service? New blood is needed for growth and continuation, a way for new blood to hsve a chance to compete.
But we could get some nice years of bw the way things are now, it could slowly grow more and more from this. A lot of the dissapointed fans who disliked sc2 and followed into lol, could probably follow bw as well. But a backside of that coins is the confucucius culture of following the mainstream which now is lol so perhaps enough of that won't happen.
Btw. What happened when Ogn wanted to sponsor SSL?
BW has definitely been regrowing in popularity thanks to ASL and return on TBLS.
I am however concerned that the current economic model of BW where bulk of the revenue for pros come from streaming/donation is unsustainable. Take a look at the number of viewers for each stream on side of TL website and its obvious that handful of top streamers get thousands of viewers while the majority of streamers struggle to attract even a hundred viewers.
I recently watched a group talk show featuring Britney, Horang2, Last, Guemchi, Rain, and couple of others. Part of their discussion was return of TBLS to BW scene and how that made it much more difficult it is for the other streamers to attract viewers. While those streamers and myself agree that TBLS deserve their success thanks to their BW accomplishments and skills, you can't have a sustainable BW scene with just a handful number of full time players.
My guess is that one needs around $1500~$2000 monthly in Korea to subsist, but many streamers won't earn that amount forcing them to leave the scene
One thing that's pretty encouraging is Fish numbers are back to what they were in like 2011/12. They were at the lowest in 2014 or so, with like ~13k players online at Korean peak hours. These days they are around ~20k as far as I know.
I think 2016 was a huge growth year for Brood War. There is a lot of growing interest. The right people night to step forward and take chances on investing in the scene. Like ZerO said in his interview, everyone is afraid to take chances. The people who are working tirelessly to try things are making very little money off the scene too. I think in 2017 we will see new people step up to the plate and also sponsors like KT will continue to invest too.
as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
To put it bluntly, I think it's ridiculous how some people here are asking how there should be more money in the scene, or why there isn't a fairer distribution of wealth as if they are entitled to it.
This entire conversation we're having is only taking place due to the non-stop donations of various Korean fans over the years. No investments. No teams. No corporate sponsors. Just thousands of viewers who put their hard earned money into the pockets of these players, and once the streaming industry grew, we now have more interest from people all around trying to get their share of the pie. Now that these donations helped the scene grow large enough to pique your interest, you think you get to say who gets how much? Where's this arrogance coming from?
Who are you to decide who gets what? How much money have you donated towards these less popular players? Who are you to make light of the amount of money fans of less known players are donating? You don't get to say a single say, unless Flash somehow took the money from the donations you personally gave to these players. If you are just a free loader like I am, don't judge the people who are generous enough to donate their money to these streamers. It's an very poor taste.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
As long as streamers keep bringing in huge viewers like they currently are (huge is debatable of course..) I think eventually it will foster a tournament regrowth.
But it may not, BW is an old game and I'm just happy to see the streamers happy and making money, definitely better then nothing. And now we have TBLS streaming? Amazin <3
I think BW will have an indefinite place in esports, the graphics have retro appeal, the skill level is ridiculous thanks to TBLS and others, if it can get fostered by foreigners somehow it can be a beautiful thing for a very long time imo.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
On January 05 2017 22:18 Hildegard wrote: I think the big question is whether BW attracts new players and if new players can challenge the old ones over time.
I feel that's a very important point that is almost never discussed. Yes having TBLS playing is cool but the scene can't revolve around them forever. To keep the scene alive you need new blood not just people 25-30+ years old. At some point we need new faces who can challenge TBLS.
Will it happen ? I doubt it. Teenagers play league of legends or overwatch not a game which was released before they were even born... Maybe if OGN starts broadcasting it again it could spark some interest but it most likely won't happen because it's just easier and less risky to broadcast lol/overwatch/hearthstone
Fish is regularly getting 25-30k at peak thanks to Ums random tower defense and tbls. Bw viewership overall has increased tremendously. I'd say at peak(Asl or terror tourney) it reaches up to 150k. Lot of other famous streamers are now streaming bw because it has gotten so popular
I'm not qualified by any means to answer about the future of BW involving $$$, but Fish broke 24K the other day and it's pushing 25K on weekend nights. There's a growth in players, that's for sure.
I've stopped using PC bangs as a measure because of the changes in how they work, how games are logged, and the people that go there. Full grown adults are becoming less common and PC bangs are turning into an after-school event for kids. That's not to say BW isn't popular with the young ones (we have preteens in our clan), but rather what the young ones tend to play. Lots of League, lots of Overwatch, and some other games that have discounts and perks when played in PC bangs.
In fact, Fish is well known for conflicting with PC bang internet connections. A good chunk of PC bangs can't handle UPnP on so many systems at once, it's a better experience to just play from home.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move:
1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans
From what i understand there's Overwatch and League of Legends in Korean gaming so-called "prime time" with what we can consider closest to mass appeal. To paraphrase one Korean person from Twitch chat: "Besides LoL and OW there's nothing", which is why i don't see Brood War going anywhere near the mainstream prominence in once enjoyed.
Good luck to all streamers in all their endevors, I'm genuinely jaelous of the money they make.
To add to BisuDagger, clans (especially neOx) have been around for a very long time and support their players the best they can. More and more clans are doing this as clan owners are getting old enough to have a lot of disposable income. Neox and Moo are especially enormous because Neox is paid out by Terror and Moo is paid out by Britney, both making more money than they know what to do with.
On January 05 2017 14:04 alprostadil wrote: BW has definitely been regrowing in popularity thanks to ASL and return on TBLS.
I am however concerned that the current economic model of BW where bulk of the revenue for pros come from streaming/donation is unsustainable. Take a look at the number of viewers for each stream on side of TL website and its obvious that handful of top streamers get thousands of viewers while the majority of streamers struggle to attract even a hundred viewers.
I recently watched a group talk show featuring Britney, Horang2, Last, Guemchi, Rain, and couple of others. Part of their discussion was return of TBLS to BW scene and how that made it much more difficult it is for the other streamers to attract viewers. While those streamers and myself agree that TBLS deserve their success thanks to their BW accomplishments and skills, you can't have a sustainable BW scene with just a handful number of full time players.
My guess is that one needs around $1500~$2000 monthly in Korea to subsist, but many streamers won't earn that amount forcing them to leave the scene
Honestly this is a similar problem to what has always affected bw, but its less severe. It used to be that lower tier pros only got the benefit of practice and free room, they didnt even get paid. Even the lower tier pros who actually got proleague time were getting hardly any money at all. Now lower and mid tier pros can supplement tourny income with streaming, and they can meaningfully get more views if they are entertaining. If pro teams are ever to come back, they would continue to be pretty marginal income wise for most of the pros, as they always were.
On January 06 2017 01:49 Letmelose wrote: Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Don't know anything about Overwatch or Sudden Attack, but I wonder if LCK (League of Legends Korean pro series) starting again later this month will have an impact on BW numbers, for better or worse.
On January 05 2017 14:04 alprostadil wrote: BW has definitely been regrowing in popularity thanks to ASL and return on TBLS.
I am however concerned that the current economic model of BW where bulk of the revenue for pros come from streaming/donation is unsustainable. Take a look at the number of viewers for each stream on side of TL website and its obvious that handful of top streamers get thousands of viewers while the majority of streamers struggle to attract even a hundred viewers.
I recently watched a group talk show featuring Britney, Horang2, Last, Guemchi, Rain, and couple of others. Part of their discussion was return of TBLS to BW scene and how that made it much more difficult it is for the other streamers to attract viewers. While those streamers and myself agree that TBLS deserve their success thanks to their BW accomplishments and skills, you can't have a sustainable BW scene with just a handful number of full time players.
My guess is that one needs around $1500~$2000 monthly in Korea to subsist, but many streamers won't earn that amount forcing them to leave the scene
Honestly this is a similar problem to what has always affected bw, but its less severe. It used to be that lower tier pros only got the benefit of practice and free room, they didnt even get paid. Even the lower tier pros who actually got proleague time were getting hardly any money at all. Now lower and mid tier pros can supplement tourny income with streaming, and they can meaningfully get more views if they are entertaining. If pro teams are ever to come back, they would continue to be pretty marginal income wise for most of the pros, as they always were.
I don't know about that.
On the plus side, it's probably a bit more open because people aren't needing to prepare against players who have an entire full time coaching staff behind them. But at the same time, there is probably a sacrifice to the level of play when you do have players streaming, entertaining,
I would think streaming, being a popularity contest, would be way more top-sided than anything. If thats the case, how many pros could donations actually sustain over the course of an entire year?
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This is called communism. Do you have a job? Imagine you have to work N hours, but you like to do N+1 hours because you like to work. Imagine what you do, e.g. making pizzas, is better than what your colleague is doing. So, your pizza is tastier than the other guy's. Do you still have to be paid the same salary? If you say yes, then you are lying.
Do you want to earn more than Flash? Play more than him, win more than him. You should earn more than him in this case. It's called competition. This is what sports is about.
There's some momentum going on with BW currently as all-time best players for each race are currently streaming, no doubt about that. I am not an optimist how long this positive momentum will go on as some have to enlist to the military. Although some will return from their military to replace the ones enlisting, I still think it's just the old faces returning while there are no new faces challenging the top players. The big guys must invest into some sort of a Jeja league where they get some gosu pupils and personally invest to train them to get chogosu and even better than their mentors. They could battle each other out in sponsored tournaments. I don't know if it is possible. Letmelose, feel free to share this idea (if you like it of course) if you happen to know any chogosu BW streamer.
Bisu streamed with terror, sea, and flash for over 20k people last week and all they did was drink and talk about girls so I would say its doing pretty well lol.
Tasteless said the viewership is over 100k in total for the ASL stream, and if you look at the YT VODs then the Korean ones have over 100k views by themselves. Pretty insane numbers for RO16 really.
I no longer care to speculate on anything relating to the health and future of BW. It keeps living against sometimes apparently insuperable odds, and I keep playing despite being self-employed and eternally busy, and with a girlfriend and social life and sports and other commitments. I feel like... If all this hasn't stopped it being such a hugely enjoyable game which people play, and I play, then what will? Maybe something, maybe not, but it's not really even worth contemplating any more.
Also, the Starcraft on show in the ASL right now is such good watching and there was fantastic turnout and plenty of young faces both for the qualifiers and as audience for the live shows, so I see no cause for gloom there.
If you want BW to survive and want to be a part of that, at least play. Otherwise, commentate, run a tourney, a news update vodcast, watch the great tournaments and tweet about them, paint Kerrigan on your stomach and go forth into the streets...
As others have mentioned, I think that the biggest blow to continued growth in BW will be military service. None of TBLS have completed their military service, meaning that the biggest names in the game will leave us soon, for 2 years. When they come back they will be pushing 30, will they go back to Brood War at that stage in their lives? Where will Brood War be when they return? There are actually very few top name progamers that I can think of that completed their military service, largely because of SC2. Sometimes I wish all of them went to the military instead of participating in SC2; then the BW revival now would have more steam. Ah well, no point in talking about it now.
Closer to the subject at hand, what I'm trying to say is that the growth, in my opinion, is largely due to one big name after another returning to BW these past 1.5 years. The dissolution of SC2PL opened the metaphorical flood gates for all of the players that were in SC2Jail like Jaedong (although I've heard people saying he's played BW for a while even during SC2 career). With no such future "major" transitions and with all the top players already playing, I don't see the resurgence gaining as much traction in the future as it did recently. In other words, the growth will slow down now, imo.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This is called communism. Do you have a job? Imagine you have to work N hours, but you like to do N+1 hours because you like to work. Imagine what you do, e.g. making pizzas, is better than what your colleague is doing. So, your pizza is tastier than the other guy's. Do you still have to be paid the same salary? If you say yes, then you are lying.
Do you want to earn more than Flash? Play more than him, win more than him. You should earn more than him in this case. It's called competition. This is what sports is about.
Hot tip, when you use a metaphor in an explanation, it can be a useful tool for giving listeners shortcuts to understand what you mean. When you use metaphors in a retort, it's called a strawman and you fool yourself into thinking you're making a point when you're really attacking something no one said.
I don't agree with shady, just saying. Usually there's a small piece of a bigger pie argument to be made in these types of situations, but in this case the pie isn't gonna get larger just because you share more. I think afreeca is doing a good job, I am enjoying ASL, and if and when there are more resources, maybe the scene can support a larger player pool. But as far as Flash making 25k a month? Yeah, I am siding with you Shield. Flash's personal income has nothing to do with supporting a larger scene. There's no reason to think the scene would be more healthy or strong if he gave half his income to weaker players getting no views. He would just be paying people to play StarCraft with no one watching.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move:
1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans
It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious.
I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite.
1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand.
People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine.
On January 05 2017 14:04 alprostadil wrote: BW has definitely been regrowing in popularity thanks to ASL and return on TBLS.
I am however concerned that the current economic model of BW where bulk of the revenue for pros come from streaming/donation is unsustainable. Take a look at the number of viewers for each stream on side of TL website and its obvious that handful of top streamers get thousands of viewers while the majority of streamers struggle to attract even a hundred viewers.
I recently watched a group talk show featuring Britney, Horang2, Last, Guemchi, Rain, and couple of others. Part of their discussion was return of TBLS to BW scene and how that made it much more difficult it is for the other streamers to attract viewers. While those streamers and myself agree that TBLS deserve their success thanks to their BW accomplishments and skills, you can't have a sustainable BW scene with just a handful number of full time players.
My guess is that one needs around $1500~$2000 monthly in Korea to subsist, but many streamers won't earn that amount forcing them to leave the scene
That's interesting. Streaming could be a very difficult financial model for bw. It seems that way. This could lead to a scene with only tbls able to practice as a living, amateurs having no chance of reaching them( except expros like sea etc).
Streaming as a financial base would need more options, maybe continual streaming events including other talent could give more players a chance but that's a risky financial build compared to teams in a league.( For up and coming players and for a growing scene.)
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
At which age do they have to do their military service?
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
I hear you Letmelose!
My perspective and many others here(I believe) is a outzoomed one, where focus is on the survivability of the scene. No meaning to condescend on those who helped broodwar keep breathing as it "died".
For example when a user suggested a communistic teamhouse where streaming-incomes would be shared, that is to me a suggestion for the future, not a comment on how it has been.
We, teamliquid, could try to raise money to organize special events to try to tackle some of the issues the brood war scene faces (new blood, military service, tournaments,...). One example that springs to mind could be a special kind of coach-pupil tournament. I'd definitely be willing to pitch in as much as I can.
The plan would be to get the best of the best (Jaedong, Flash, Stork,...) to take on a pupil and to foster their growth. The pupils would be the one's that have to play in a tournament. Winnings are divided among the winning pupil coach couple. The tournament could just be an online event with the coaches streaming, and even the pupils.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it?
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
At which age do they have to do their military service?
Most people do it at a much earlier age than the current ages of TBLS. AFAIK you can no longer do it once you've hit somewhere around 30? It should be noted that according to Korean age, Bisu is 29 I think; not sure if this is the age that has to be less than 30 or our western idea of age is the qualifying factor. It is also heavily frowned upon to not complete military service. It is seen as transition to respected manhood AFAIK.
If the AFAIK haven't tipped you off, I'm not 100% sure about the above information so if I'm incorrect about anything I'm sure someone will correct me but I'm pretty sure this is the case.
On January 06 2017 03:51 notgayDragon wrote: I'm not qualified by any means to answer about the future of BW involving $$$, but Fish broke 24K the other day and it's pushing 25K on weekend nights. There's a growth in players, that's for sure.
I've stopped using PC bangs as a measure because of the changes in how they work, how games are logged, and the people that go there. Full grown adults are becoming less common and PC bangs are turning into an after-school event for kids. That's not to say BW isn't popular with the young ones (we have preteens in our clan), but rather what the young ones tend to play. Lots of League, lots of Overwatch, and some other games that have discounts and perks when played in PC bangs.
In fact, Fish is well known for conflicting with PC bang internet connections. A good chunk of PC bangs can't handle UPnP on so many systems at once, it's a better experience to just play from home.
That's sad to hear. But a situation BW will have to deal with to survive. How do they reach new bloods? Young players who didn't grow up with it, or just follow the mainstream of gaming.
If the scen keeps on growing, and it had an impact on younger players then PCBangs would have to adapt to that. That shouldn't be impossible at all, if it's still the 6th most played game then that shouldn't be at risk atm at least. But it's an issue that could cause problems if Bw does not grow and for example a windows 11 would arrive without easy compitability with BW.
Glad to hear about the Fish numbers though! This issue shouldn't be an issue within at least this year.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move:
1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans
It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious.
I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite.
1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand.
People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine.
I suggest you calm down. You keep on saying that we, yourself included, have no right to formulate an opinion. And you sort of express some weird paranoia that we all criticize and blame others. We just don't. We're all friends here. We all play and have been playing this game, which is already great and actually one of the best ways to keep it alive. Investing money is a thing, and yes we need to participate to make it a sustainable and profitable economical activity. But playing the game, and being so faithful to it is already something great. We are all brood war fans here, and we're all here for a reason : we love the game. Our concerns about the game's future is totally legitimate. A certain thing called freedom of speech makes us totally entitled to express our opinion just about anything. That's actually the very principle of a forum in the first place. It's like on this other thread (general discussion) I asked why terror's walls are so disgusting (which they are except if you consider weird shit on a wall to be clean) and you did not give me the start of an answer in like three replies. All you did was basicaly explain me that I was nobody and that my opinion was worthless... Just caaaaalm down. You make some good points, but your tone makes it impossible to pay attention to them.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
At which age do they have to do their military service?
On January 06 2017 08:32 ImbaTosS wrote: I no longer care to speculate on anything relating to the health and future of BW. It keeps living against sometimes apparently insuperable odds, and I keep playing despite being self-employed and eternally busy, and with a girlfriend and social life and sports and other commitments. I feel like... If all this hasn't stopped it being such a hugely enjoyable game which people play, and I play, then what will? Maybe something, maybe not, but it's not really even worth contemplating any more.
Also, the Starcraft on show in the ASL right now is such good watching and there was fantastic turnout and plenty of young faces both for the qualifiers and as audience for the live shows, so I see no cause for gloom there.
If you want BW to survive and want to be a part of that, at least play. Otherwise, commentate, run a tourney, a news update vodcast, watch the great tournaments and tweet about them, paint Kerrigan on your stomach and go forth into the streets...
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it?
If a constructive disccusion took place, and most of the comments were about how we can help the scene further, and how we should find ways make this all better, I would have been much more greatful in my tone of voice.
Instead, I got triggered when people just started to point out all the flaws in the scene, and seemed to demand certain things from the donators, or the streamers themselves as if they were entitled to such opinions without providing any solutions themselves. Considering how all this active discussion is taking place because of the donations that kept the careers of these streamers alive after people left it for dead, I thought it was incredibly arrogant of people to suggest Flash shouldn't receive the donations he gets, or how the current scene was unsustainable. I expressed my frustrations not just on the current state of the scene, but the way in which some people who did nothing to help it in times of need started to voice their discontent on how the way things are currently. Deal with it.
@letmelose actually if you don't mind me asking, why have you not donated to any player yet? a few posts alone show you are definitely a big enthusiastic BW fan, so it was quite surprising to see such an admission from you.
Was it a convenience issue? I think you will see more foreigners or even people outside of korea in general chipping in if Afreeca haven't make it so difficult in the first place for anyone outside korea.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move:
1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans
It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious.
I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite.
1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand.
People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine.
I suggest you calm down. You keep on saying that we, yourself included, have no right to formulate an opinion. And you sort of express some weird paranoia that we all criticize and blame others. We just don't. We're all friends here. We all play and have been playing this game, which is already great and actually one of the best ways to keep it alive. Investing money is a thing, and yes we need to participate to make it a sustainable and profitable economical activity. But playing the game, and being so faithful to it is already something great. We are all brood war fans here, and we're all here for a reason : we love the game. Our concerns about the game's future is totally legitimate. A certain thing called freedom of speech makes us totally entitled to express our opinion just about anything. That's actually the very principle of a forum in the first place. It's like on this other thread (general discussion) I asked why terror's walls are so disgusting (which they are except if you consider weird shit on a wall to be clean) and you did not give me the start of an answer in like three replies. All you did was basicaly explain me that I was nobody and that my opinion was worthless... Just caaaaalm down. You make some good points, but your tone makes it impossible to pay attention to them.
"Call me a purist, but I actually like the professionalism of bw players, and how gentleman they act."
I don't know, isn't this demanding certain standards of behaviour from the streamers like Terror[fOu] without doing absolutely nothing to create the sort of environment under which he can satisfy your purist requirements?
Just as you can voice your discontent about the way in which the current streaming industry works, I can also point out how you have no right to complain about it as someone who did nothing to stop the fall of the professional industry to Blizzard, did nothing to aid the dire situation of people either needing to make clowns out of themselves to sustain their streaming careers, or play Starcraft 2 like big-daddy Blizzard told them to (but not win that much because people don't like Koreans versus Koreans), and is still doing nothing apart from pointing out how certain actions on stream makes you cringe. This cringe worthy behaviour, and all the things you point out as things that make you uncomfortable came at a cost of people literally supporting these players' livelihoods out of their own pockets while you just stood there doing nothing. Without these donations, and the realities of streaming that come with it, you wouldn't even have anything to complain about.
I can somewhat understand your concerns if you played a pivotal role in the scene, or even if you weren't, did what you could do to help the scene financially, but why pretend to care for the welfare and dignity of these players, and raise yourself to the position of a purist? Can you not see the way in which your own tone of voice could be triggering to others?
On January 06 2017 10:51 Probemicro wrote: @letmelose actually if you don't mind me asking, why have you not donated to any player yet? a few posts alone show you are definitely a big enthusiastic BW fan, so it was quite surprising to see such an admission from you.
Was it a convenience issue? I think you will see more foreigners or even people outside of korea in general chipping in if Afreeca haven't make it so difficult in the first place for anyone outside korea.
or was there some other ethical/personal reason?
I am a worthless fan with no money. I will earn money once my alternative army service is over, and try to donate what I can.
On January 04 2017 09:50 RPGabe wrote: I don't know if BW regrowth is going to happen in the long term, but I'm hype for ASL and have roped several friends into following it.
I'm doing my part!
Same here, maybe annoyed old BW guys into watching/following streams again like 35 of my pals aged 29 to 40 years old haha
One question I have is, are there any Fish amateur gosus that have any inkling of making it into the pros? I mean, this will not last 3 years if all we see are the same faces, Broodwar really needs a bunch of 14 year old nerds practicing nonstop now if we're even dreaming this is going to last. I don't wanna get hurt again lol
the problem is there is absolutely no incentive for kids to play brood war when league and overwatch are the games to play if you want to make it big in korea e-sports wise.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it?
If a constructive disccusion took place, and most of the comments were about how we can help the scene further, and how we should find ways make this all better, I would have been much more greatful in my tone of voice.
Instead, I got triggered when people just started to point out all the flaws in the scene, and seemed to demand certain things from the donators, or the streamers themselves as if they were entitled to such opinions without providing any solutions themselves. Considering how all this active discussion is taking place because of the donations that kept the careers of these streamers alive after people left it for dead, I thought it was incredibly arrogant of people to suggest Flash shouldn't receive the donations he gets, or how the current scene was unsustainable. I expressed my frustrations not just on the current state of the scene, but the way in which some people who did nothing to help it in times of need started to voice their discontent on how the way things are currently. Deal with it.
You can create your own thread if this only gives you a headache. This thread is a discussion on the growth of BW, based on questions I had and others who have continued a discussion here. Not about your idea of what this thread "should" be about. You contributed with information on how the scene survived through donations, that's very relevant for where BW is now and where it could go. So again. Thanks for contributing! But also please chill! There's like two posts out of 60 suggesting what TBLS "should" do with their money. No need to bring out the bash-hammer on all of us!
You say that if a more "constructive discussion" was taking place your tone of voice would be different. Well again. Your expecations of this thread differ from it's purpose. Your idea of a "constructive discussion" is not what this thread is about. Feel free to create that thread though! My expecations and OP was going for a objective and informative discussion on the state of BW, it's possible future. Not purely a constructive discussion of how to aid BW's growth. Quite the opposite actually if you read it. But we're all here now aren't we? Out of all the people in the world we're the ones here, I'd think we're all for BW growing. If you have ideas of how we all can help it grow then feel free to add it here or create your own thread, but don't go nagging on everyone for not following your example when it's not what this thread is about. In the end, if your goal is a constructive discussion on helping BW then how does all this complaining help that cause?
On January 06 2017 12:40 GTR wrote: the problem is there is absolutely no incentive for kids to play brood war when league and overwatch are the games to play if you want to make it big in korea e-sports wise.
Yeah outside of BW being a smaller scene, the lack of new talent is what is eventually going to kill it.
On January 06 2017 12:40 GTR wrote: the problem is there is absolutely no incentive for kids to play brood war when league and overwatch are the games to play if you want to make it big in korea e-sports wise.
Yeah outside of BW being a smaller scene, the lack of new talent is what is eventually going to kill it.
Great (and important) thread...
Sadly, what you say seems correct, unless a resurrected BW scene can provide enough incentives to attract new great players... i.e. enough money and exposure in major tourneys and/or team contracts to attract new talent, which can then make a name for itself, which can then still stream on the side successfully if all else eventually fails.
The big names make a lot of money off of streaming now... Flash is earning at, what, a $300K USD per year clip right now? He has no incentive to stop ringing that cash-register, nor do any of the other top names who are successful in the same way.
The 'death scenario' for BW though would be where the tourney/team scene fails to re-ignite sufficiently, AND the streaming revenue remains confined to a tiny handful of top names, while no one else can really make it via streaming.
In which case, you'd then have no new talent, and of the existing talent, most everyone except a very successful few would eventually leave for greener pastures. BW would then just be a very few top ppl streaming until that too finally died off.
Seems like you'd need revenue-sharing and more organization on the streaming side, plus a string of at least medium-sized corporate sponsors on the tourney/team side (forget the big boys for now). Plus teams/organizations/sponsors being very understanding towards streaming.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it?
If a constructive disccusion took place, and most of the comments were about how we can help the scene further, and how we should find ways make this all better, I would have been much more greatful in my tone of voice.
Instead, I got triggered when people just started to point out all the flaws in the scene, and seemed to demand certain things from the donators, or the streamers themselves as if they were entitled to such opinions without providing any solutions themselves. Considering how all this active discussion is taking place because of the donations that kept the careers of these streamers alive after people left it for dead, I thought it was incredibly arrogant of people to suggest Flash shouldn't receive the donations he gets, or how the current scene was unsustainable. I expressed my frustrations not just on the current state of the scene, but the way in which some people who did nothing to help it in times of need started to voice their discontent on how the way things are currently. Deal with it.
You can create your own thread if this only gives you a headache. This thread is a discussion on the growth of BW, based on questions I had and others who have continued a discussion here. Not about your idea of what this thread "should" be about. You contributed with information on how the scene survived through donations, that's very relevant for where BW is now and where it could go. So again. Thanks for contributing! But also please chill! There's like two posts out of 60 suggesting what TBLS "should" do with their money. No need to bring out the bash-hammer on all of us!
You say that if a more "constructive discussion" was taking place your tone of voice would be different. Well again. Your expecations of this thread differ from it's purpose. Your idea of a "constructive discussion" is not what this thread is about. Feel free to create that thread though! My expecations and OP was going for a objective and informative discussion on the state of BW, it's possible future. Not purely a constructive discussion of how to aid BW's growth. Quite the opposite actually if you read it. But we're all here now aren't we? Out of all the people in the world we're the ones here, I'd think we're all for BW growing. If you have ideas of how we all can help it grow then feel free to add it here or create your own thread, but don't go nagging on everyone for not following your example when it's not what this thread is about. In the end, if your goal is a constructive discussion on helping BW then how does all this complaining help that cause?
I was bashing people not following the example set by others who helped the scene survive to this point, then having the audacity to nag about the less-than-ideal situations of the current state of Brood War with astonishingly arrogant phrases like "as a purist", or "as a Flash fan", and diminishing the contributions of the generous fans like it was detrimental to the scene or something. Of course the current set-up is not sustainable, of course all these people can't make a living out of these donations, but at least there are donations. That was my point.
I agree that I was ranting, and generally being unconstructive with my efforts. This does not help Brood War no matter how badly some of the posts triggered me.
Young talent can also live on 1k usd a month and be absolutely fine playing 14 hours a day. Older gamers have families to support, that's really how I feel about the lack of the "new" talent and how it's going to eventually catch up and viewership starts to drop off again.
On January 06 2017 15:52 Broodwar4lyf wrote: Young talent can also live on 1k usd a month and be absolutely fine playing 14 hours a day. Older gamers have families to support, that's really how I feel about the lack of the "new" talent and how it's going to eventually catch up and viewership starts to drop off again.
I'm not sure "absolutely fine" is appropriate to say. Anyone that invests 14 hours a day for $1000 a month is simultaneously earning a shit wage and hampering their potential future elsewhere, not to mention their health. When there were organized team houses that provided good food, work out regimens, etc. It was different, but even after that we see the effect it has had on some progamer who don't know what to do with themselves outside of the gaming industry.
Where is this new talent right now, anyway? They should already be practicing now if they hope to fill the void of big names in the future, streaming most of the time. Maybe we don't see them and they exist; if so, I'd like to watch some VODs of theirs, haha.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This is called communism. Do you have a job? Imagine you have to work N hours, but you like to do N+1 hours because you like to work. Imagine what you do, e.g. making pizzas, is better than what your colleague is doing. So, your pizza is tastier than the other guy's. Do you still have to be paid the same salary? If you say yes, then you are lying.
Do you want to earn more than Flash? Play more than him, win more than him. You should earn more than him in this case. It's called competition. This is what sports is about.
I agree that it is pretty absurd, but on the other hand every country has taxes and we don't call it communism, I don't necessarily think pooling together 5% of all donations across all streamers towards a league where in return all of the players who donated could participate in as "bad".
It is important to note that this needs to be volunteery, for instance you contribute 5% and in return you are allowed to participate in the league and all the money is converted into running the event and prize distribution, which wouldn't be as top heavy as ASL currently.
Forcibly taking money from one player and giving it to another is pretty fucking stupid though
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move:
1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans
It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious.
I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite.
1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand.
People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine.
While I agree with most of what you've said, tone down the condescension, you most certainly aren't winning any friends or arguments either.
You also seem to forget most of us on TL live on the other side of the planet, it is out of our hands. Do you think people like say, Day[9] or maybe Artosis who played in the US scene for 10 years somehow cared less about the Game than somebody who did the same in Korea?
Do you think somebody following BW on TL cares less than Koreans? Do you think somebody who went through the trouble of doing write-ups on TL cares less than somebody who supported the scene differently in Korea?
The fact is that this is entirely out of our hands, and we can't do much, but speculate and hope for the best. Koreans will ultimately decide what happens to the scene, but there is no need to be a condescending prick about it.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it?
If a constructive disccusion took place, and most of the comments were about how we can help the scene further, and how we should find ways make this all better, I would have been much more greatful in my tone of voice.
Instead, I got triggered when people just started to point out all the flaws in the scene, and seemed to demand certain things from the donators, or the streamers themselves as if they were entitled to such opinions without providing any solutions themselves. Considering how all this active discussion is taking place because of the donations that kept the careers of these streamers alive after people left it for dead, I thought it was incredibly arrogant of people to suggest Flash shouldn't receive the donations he gets, or how the current scene was unsustainable. I expressed my frustrations not just on the current state of the scene, but the way in which some people who did nothing to help it in times of need started to voice their discontent on how the way things are currently. Deal with it.
There always were and always will be people with either dumb or uninformed opinions on the internet in any online community, what you do is tell them why they are wrong while refraining from personal attacks or being condescending. You most certainly aren't making yourself any favors if you want to win an argument while calling them ungrateful, name-calling or making general blanket statements about them.
I think you might have amateurs for a long time in the future but once the current generation of ex-pros retire, the won't be replaced. There's no system for attracting, training, and child laboring pro-quality players into existence.
I do think after a certain point, Broodwar might come back a long time from now when SK start to miss it but that might be decades down the line as an cultural/tradition/historic artifact of the early 2000s with corporate and government sponsored leagues.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move:
1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans
It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious.
I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite.
1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand.
People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine.
While I agree with most of what you've said, tone down the condescension, you most certainly aren't winning any friends or arguments either.
You also seem to forget most of us on TL live on the other side of the planet, it is out of our hands. Do you think people like say, Day[9] or maybe Artosis who played in the US scene for 10 years somehow cared less about the Game than somebody who did the same in Korea?
Do you think somebody following BW on TL cares less than Koreans? Do you think somebody who went through the trouble of doing write-ups on TL cares less than somebody who supported the scene differently in Korea?
The fact is that this is entirely out of our hands, and we can't do much, but speculate and hope for the best. Koreans will ultimately decide what happens to the scene, but there is no need to be a condescending prick about it.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it?
If a constructive disccusion took place, and most of the comments were about how we can help the scene further, and how we should find ways make this all better, I would have been much more greatful in my tone of voice.
Instead, I got triggered when people just started to point out all the flaws in the scene, and seemed to demand certain things from the donators, or the streamers themselves as if they were entitled to such opinions without providing any solutions themselves. Considering how all this active discussion is taking place because of the donations that kept the careers of these streamers alive after people left it for dead, I thought it was incredibly arrogant of people to suggest Flash shouldn't receive the donations he gets, or how the current scene was unsustainable. I expressed my frustrations not just on the current state of the scene, but the way in which some people who did nothing to help it in times of need started to voice their discontent on how the way things are currently. Deal with it.
There always were and always will be people with either dumb or uninformed opinions on the internet in any online community, what you do is tell them why they are wrong while refraining from personal attacks or being condescending. You most certainly aren't making yourself any favors if you want to win an argument while calling them ungrateful, name-calling or making general blanket statements about them.
Tone it down.
First of all, I'm more or less aware of the level devotion, passion and dedication to the game the likes of Day[9] and Artosis showed towards Brood War. I have basic knowledge of their exploits as amateurs and content creators. I watched their little documentary about competing in WCG USA, watched their vlogs about their past, watched some of the Day[9] Dailies, and watched every single content that Artosis released on SCForAll. I think I know a little about how much they cared, and what their input towards the industry was in general. I also am aware of their careers in Starcraft 2, although I did not follow them much in that regard.
Let me ask you, are you aware of the level of dedication, and fidelity some of the people in Korea showed throughout their involvement in the scene? Can you even name of them, like you did with Day[9], and Artosis? How aware are you about the level of dedication some of the people here had for the scene? Are you sure you know more about the Korean scene, than I know about the icons of the English-speaking realm that you've listed? I may not be the best judge of passion and loyalty, but I get the feeling you are being a little too fast to pull the trigger here with all those grandiose statements about caring for Brood War.
Further more, how many other sites have you used besides Team Liquid? Do you think you are the most qualified person here to judge exactly how much passion, dedication, and fidelity the fans from various communities showed to the game of Brood War? Are you aware of the amount of content that was released on some of the other sites? Do you even know any articles weren't posted in the English language? What do you know about the Korean communities that makes you so sure, that this site supported the scene just as much as any other? How do you know people here loved Brood War just as much if not more than the other communities?
I may be a condescending prick, but I think I may have a better grasp of this particular topic than you do. I'm fine with the name calling, because I've been the first to pull the trigger in terms of hostility. However, I believe some of the posters on this thread, including yourself, are guilty of engaging in a topic with the kind of bliss that only ignorance can bring.
Message me in private if you want to engage further, let's get down to the bottom of this.
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move:
1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans
It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious.
I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite.
1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand.
People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine.
While I agree with most of what you've said, tone down the condescension, you most certainly aren't winning any friends or arguments either.
You also seem to forget most of us on TL live on the other side of the planet, it is out of our hands. Do you think people like say, Day[9] or maybe Artosis who played in the US scene for 10 years somehow cared less about the Game than somebody who did the same in Korea?
Do you think somebody following BW on TL cares less than Koreans? Do you think somebody who went through the trouble of doing write-ups on TL cares less than somebody who supported the scene differently in Korea?
The fact is that this is entirely out of our hands, and we can't do much, but speculate and hope for the best. Koreans will ultimately decide what happens to the scene, but there is no need to be a condescending prick about it.
On January 06 2017 10:37 Letmelose wrote:
On January 06 2017 09:47 SirGlinG wrote:
On January 06 2017 02:34 Letmelose wrote:
On January 06 2017 02:06 neptunusfisk wrote:
On January 06 2017 01:49 Letmelose wrote:
On January 06 2017 00:33 Harem wrote:
On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote: as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case)
Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about.
You have realised the perfect post, a self-ironic masterpiece
Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out.
Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it?
If a constructive disccusion took place, and most of the comments were about how we can help the scene further, and how we should find ways make this all better, I would have been much more greatful in my tone of voice.
Instead, I got triggered when people just started to point out all the flaws in the scene, and seemed to demand certain things from the donators, or the streamers themselves as if they were entitled to such opinions without providing any solutions themselves. Considering how all this active discussion is taking place because of the donations that kept the careers of these streamers alive after people left it for dead, I thought it was incredibly arrogant of people to suggest Flash shouldn't receive the donations he gets, or how the current scene was unsustainable. I expressed my frustrations not just on the current state of the scene, but the way in which some people who did nothing to help it in times of need started to voice their discontent on how the way things are currently. Deal with it.
There always were and always will be people with either dumb or uninformed opinions on the internet in any online community, what you do is tell them why they are wrong while refraining from personal attacks or being condescending. You most certainly aren't making yourself any favors if you want to win an argument while calling them ungrateful, name-calling or making general blanket statements about them.
Tone it down.
First of all, I'm more or less aware of the level devotion, passion and dedication to the game the likes of Day[9] and Artosis showed towards Brood War. I have basic knowledge of their exploits as amateurs and content creators. I watched their little documentary about competing in WCG USA, watched their vlogs about their past, watched some of the Day[9] Dailies, and watched every single content that Artosis released on SCForAll. I think I know a little about how much they cared, and what their input towards the industry was in general. I also am aware of their careers in Starcraft 2, although I did not follow them much in that regard.
Let me ask you, are you aware of the level of dedication, and fidelity some of the people in Korea showed throughout their involvement in the scene? Can you even name of them, like you did with Day[9], and Artosis? How aware are you about the level of dedication some of the people here had for the scene? Are you sure you know more about the Korean scene, than I know about the icons of the English-speaking realm that you've listed? I may not be the best judge of passion and loyalty, but I get the feeling you are being a little too fast to pull the trigger here with all those grandiose statements about caring for Brood War.
Further more, how many other sites have you used besides Team Liquid? Do you think you are the most qualified person here to judge exactly how much passion, dedication, and fidelity the fans from various communities showed to the game of Brood War? Are you aware of the amount of content that was released on some of the other sites? Do you even know any articles weren't posted in the English language? What do you know about the Korean communities that makes you so sure, that this site supported the scene just as much as any other? How do you know people here loved Brood War just as much if not more than the other communities?
I may be a condescending prick, but I think I may have a better grasp of this particular topic than you do. I'm fine with the name calling, because I've been the first to pull the trigger in terms of hostility. However, I believe some of the posters on this thread, including yourself, are guilty of engaging in a topic with the kind of bliss that only ignorance can bring.
Message me in private if you want to engage further, let's get down to the bottom of this.
The only thing I've been in this thread was inquisistive, I haven't made any assumptions, nor do I claim I'm some kind of old guard of Brood War, I do however realize that a lot of people in this community have sacrificed much of their personal free time for this game and the BW Community, I don't claim nor think I am one of those people. I've never claimed I've ever contributed much to this community, I watch Brood War games occasionally, I play the game and I seldom post on TL.
See, this is what I meant, you are making assumptions, blanket statements and generalizations about myself, you assume I hold some kind of delusions of grandeur and self importance to the Brood War community on TeamLiquid and at large, I don't.
How do you know people here loved Brood War just as much if not more than the other communities?
I don't and I've never claimed to know, rather I'd ask you, How do you know people elsewhere loved Brood War just as much if not more than the this communities?
You don't, because you can't possibly know how somebody feels about something.
Letmelose i think you are overextending,i think everyone in the BW section really appreciated your insights about progamers and the korean scene in general,(even if you did it in way to prove wrong some of the posters and comming with your information)but now you are judging also we dont love bw enough or dont support.hell it even sounds like you are blaming everyone outside Korea for the end of the bw scene,and i think is not fair.just to the point how much the non kor scene loves bw that in the 2017 Teamliquid has still a BW section.(not to tell i myself donated to afreeca streamers like Movie eagle,and the this korean SKT1 playeer i forgot his name,he was part of a foreign team also.he plays terran...
On January 06 2017 20:13 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Letmelose i think you are overextending,i think everyone in the BW section really appreciated your insights about progamers and the korean scene in general,(even if you did it in way to prove wrong some of the posters and comming with your information)but now you are judging also we dont love bw enough or dont support.hell it even sounds like you are blaming everyone outside Korea for the end of the bw scene,and i think is not fair.just to the point how much the non kor scene loves bw that in the 2017 Teamliquid has still a BW section.(not to tell i myself donated to afreeca streamers like Movie eagle,and the this korean SKT1 playeer i forgot his name,he was part of a foreign team also.he plays terran...
Pretty much, I think the problem is that people do too much penis measuring online, I think the community would be better for it if people didn't feel self-righteous for knowing more about a certain topic than somebody else.
The numbers got even higher. I just saw Stork having 34k viewers and I read that the ASL semis (Sea vs. Best) had 160k concurrent viewers. I don't know the numbers of other games like CS, LoL and HS - but my guess is that puts BW in the top 5 of most viewed games.
On January 16 2017 04:48 Netto. wrote: Probably yes. And in tuesday it will jump to top 3 most viewed games I guess
You made a typo - The most viewed game*
You should probably not police grammar if you plan on nitpicking like this. It's a low content post that is also wrong. "Top 3 most viewed games" refers to multiple games that fill the first three games in a priority list. Making games plural is acceptable here although your edit is also acceptable. Inference must be used.
On topic: It will get very exciting to see Flash vs Jaedong numbers. Those numbers may even out perform the finals for the ASL.
On January 16 2017 04:48 Netto. wrote: Probably yes. And in tuesday it will jump to top 3 most viewed games I guess
You made a typo - The most viewed game*
You should probably not police grammar if you plan on nitpicking like this. It's a low content post that is also wrong. "Top 3 most viewed games" refers to multiple games that fill the first three games in a priority list. Making games plural is acceptable here although your edit is also acceptable. Inference must be used.
On topic: It will get very exciting to see Flash vs Jaedong numbers. Those numbers may even out perform the finals for the ASL.
Edit (sorry for offtopic): Do you know if there is a url to see the latest vods of a channel or even better the channel you are casting on on afreeca.tv? I can only find an archive for all vods.
On January 16 2017 04:43 Hildegard wrote: The numbers got even higher. I just saw Stork having 34k viewers and I read that the ASL semis (Sea vs. Best) had 160k concurrent viewers. I don't know the numbers of other games like CS, LoL and HS - but my guess is that puts BW in the top 5 of most viewed games.
it peaked at 184,274 viewers according to Fuzic.nl. This is about 20k more viewers than any WCS final ever had (or any SC2 event)
On January 16 2017 04:48 Netto. wrote: Probably yes. And in tuesday it will jump to top 3 most viewed games I guess
You made a typo - The most viewed game*
You should probably not police grammar if you plan on nitpicking like this. It's a low content post that is also wrong. "Top 3 most viewed games" refers to multiple games that fill the first three games in a priority list. Making games plural is acceptable here although your edit is also acceptable. Inference must be used.
On topic: It will get very exciting to see Flash vs Jaedong numbers. Those numbers may even out perform the finals for the ASL.
Edit (sorry for offtopic): Do you know if there is a url to see the latest vods of a channel or even better the channel you are casting on on afreeca.tv? I can only find an archive for all vods.
If you go to the link: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2 From here expand the left side tab and make sure to click channel archive. All videos will be listed there. Here's an image for visual reference:
I really really really wanna see BW get a serious place in e-sports again.
I feel so sad about the way it went away, imagine if it was like that with regular sports. We don't play Fotball anymore, now everyone has to play land hockey instead.
BW is the only game that has survived over this extended time and still works so well on so many levels.
I wish that e-sport leagues where mature enough to focus on those kind of games instead of the flavor of the month.
I wish I was a billionaire so that I could create an e-sports league and focus on games with longevity like BW and SSBM etc. Even though I find SSBM boring myself.
Sure, add in flavor of the month games and see what gains traction and what can keep its popularity.
It hurts my fucking soul that BW went away not because the viewership did but because Blizzard was pushing SC2.
Imagine if we had the kind of high quality international streaming of today with the scene we had back then.
On January 17 2017 12:28 Barneyk wrote: I really really really wanna see BW get a serious place in e-sports again.
I feel so sad about the way it went away, imagine if it was like that with regular sports. We don't play Fotball anymore, now everyone has to play land hockey instead.
BW is the only game that has survived over this extended time and still works so well on so many levels.
I wish that e-sport leagues where mature enough to focus on those kind of games instead of the flavor of the month.
I wish I was a billionaire so that I could create an e-sports league and focus on games with longevity like BW and SSBM etc. Even though I find SSBM boring myself.
Sure, add in flavor of the month games and see what gains traction and what can keep its popularity.
It hurts my fucking soul that BW went away not because the viewership did but because Blizzard was pushing SC2.
Imagine if we had the kind of high quality international streaming of today with the scene we had back then.
I see such huge potential for this game...
That's one thing I don't understand - why does it need to be in a serious place in eSports? All I want is for it to be big enough to attract new players in Korea for leagues that we can see on stream. I couldn't care less about this Western concept of "eSports." BW already nets enough viewers and numbers to generate interest in dedicated youth, but I don't think it will ever compete with more "user-friendly" games like DotA.
On January 17 2017 12:28 Barneyk wrote: I really really really wanna see BW get a serious place in e-sports again.
I feel so sad about the way it went away, imagine if it was like that with regular sports. We don't play Fotball anymore, now everyone has to play land hockey instead.
BW is the only game that has survived over this extended time and still works so well on so many levels.
I wish that e-sport leagues where mature enough to focus on those kind of games instead of the flavor of the month.
I wish I was a billionaire so that I could create an e-sports league and focus on games with longevity like BW and SSBM etc. Even though I find SSBM boring myself.
Sure, add in flavor of the month games and see what gains traction and what can keep its popularity.
It hurts my fucking soul that BW went away not because the viewership did but because Blizzard was pushing SC2.
Imagine if we had the kind of high quality international streaming of today with the scene we had back then.
I see such huge potential for this game...
That's one thing I don't understand - why does it need to be in a serious place in eSports? All I want is for it to be big enough to attract new players in Korea for leagues that we can see on stream. I couldn't care less about this Western concept of "eSports." BW already nets enough viewers and numbers to generate interest in dedicated youth, but I don't think it will ever compete with more "user-friendly" games like DotA.
I think the idea is that you have all the incentive in the world to try, train, and compete.
Like, what would the state of Brood War be if everyone in the scene had a 9-5 job and could only invest a few hours a week into practicing? Surely, even the best of the best players in Brood War, they might have to sacrifice skill and preparation for their day job of being an entertaining streamer, as oppose to the peak of Brood War where they were able to just focus on improving and nothing else.
Has anyone else been watching the Starcraft AI bots battle each other at https://www.twitch.tv/certicky ? Loving the fact that the stream is running automated 24/7 and i can just tune in for an hour when i've got the time.It's literally the first time i've watched brood war in years. Tourney starts tommorrow (Wednesday) i believe, may the best bot win!
On January 17 2017 14:08 Jealous wrote: That's one thing I don't understand - why does it need to be in a serious place in eSports? All I want is for it to be big enough to attract new players in Korea for leagues that we can see on stream. I couldn't care less about this Western concept of "eSports." BW already nets enough viewers and numbers to generate interest in dedicated youth, but I don't think it will ever compete with more "user-friendly" games like DotA.
We are basically talking about the same thing. If it is big enough to attract and have an avenue for new players to focus on the game full time to be able to improve and eventually compete with and beat the elites of today it has a serious place in eSports.
It doesn't have to compete with mobas or whatever, it just has to be big enough to support new players. And it really isn't today. Today BW players make their money streaming and there really isn't an avenue for new players to focus on the game professionally.
On January 17 2017 14:08 Jealous wrote: That's one thing I don't understand - why does it need to be in a serious place in eSports? All I want is for it to be big enough to attract new players in Korea for leagues that we can see on stream. I couldn't care less about this Western concept of "eSports." BW already nets enough viewers and numbers to generate interest in dedicated youth, but I don't think it will ever compete with more "user-friendly" games like DotA.
We are basically talking about the same thing. If it is big enough to attract and have an avenue for new players to focus on the game full time to be able to improve and eventually compete with and beat the elites of today it has a serious place in eSports.
It doesn't have to compete with mobas or whatever, it just has to be big enough to support new players. And it really isn't today. Today BW players make their money streaming and there really isn't an avenue for new players to focus on the game professionally.
Luckily we have military service, so dominations have to end so that new players have a chance to shine, until they come back so the new players have levelled the playing field.
Eventually old players retire and new players will come back, as long as the new players are inspired by these legends.
I like how everyone is repeating the same doomsdays stuff people said when Boxer went to the military. Look how that turned out (TBLS anyone?)
On January 18 2017 01:40 duke91 wrote: Luckily we have military service, so dominations have to end so that new players have a chance to shine, until they come back so the new players have levelled the playing field.
Eventually old players retire and new players will come back, as long as the new players are inspired by these legends.
I like how everyone is repeating the same doomsdays stuff people said when Boxer went to the military. Look how that turned out (TBLS anyone?)
New players have to have made something of themselves before they go off to military service otherwise the interest will plummet when that happens. And that is what worries me.
It is amazing to be part of this BW resurgence but is it gonna be a last hurrah of the old pros or is it gonna be a true revival?
I don't know, I am hoping for a true revival and I am doing my best to support it as I can.
I have donated lots of stars of the afreeca stream, both the Tastosis and the FTWDagger streams. More people should do it!
And, is the crowdfunding page up for the finale yet?
On January 17 2017 17:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Has anyone else been watching the Starcraft AI bots battle each other at https://www.twitch.tv/certicky ? Loving the fact that the stream is running automated 24/7 and i can just tune in for an hour when i've got the time.It's literally the first time i've watched brood war in years. Tourney starts tommorrow (Wednesday) i believe, may the best bot win!
I have ofc. The Brood War AI tournaments indeed bring in people who aren't BW players themself.
The first games of the Ro16 start tommorow at 20:00 CET.
On January 17 2017 12:28 Barneyk wrote: I really really really wanna see BW get a serious place in e-sports again.
I feel so sad about the way it went away, imagine if it was like that with regular sports. We don't play Fotball anymore, now everyone has to play land hockey instead.
BW is the only game that has survived over this extended time and still works so well on so many levels.
I wish that e-sport leagues where mature enough to focus on those kind of games instead of the flavor of the month.
I wish I was a billionaire so that I could create an e-sports league and focus on games with longevity like BW and SSBM etc. Even though I find SSBM boring myself.
Sure, add in flavor of the month games and see what gains traction and what can keep its popularity.
It hurts my fucking soul that BW went away not because the viewership did but because Blizzard was pushing SC2.
Imagine if we had the kind of high quality international streaming of today with the scene we had back then.
I see such huge potential for this game...
That's one thing I don't understand - why does it need to be in a serious place in eSports? All I want is for it to be big enough to attract new players in Korea for leagues that we can see on stream. I couldn't care less about this Western concept of "eSports." BW already nets enough viewers and numbers to generate interest in dedicated youth, but I don't think it will ever compete with more "user-friendly" games like DotA.
It depends on how you define "serious". For example, I just want it to be like it was before, that's "serious" for me. I don't care about player streams, so I only watch tournaments. PL and OSL/MSL were perfect for that.
On January 17 2017 17:46 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Has anyone else been watching the Starcraft AI bots battle each other at https://www.twitch.tv/certicky ? Loving the fact that the stream is running automated 24/7 and i can just tune in for an hour when i've got the time.It's literally the first time i've watched brood war in years. Tourney starts tommorrow (Wednesday) i believe, may the best bot win!
I do, pretty much every time this time of the year (December/January). Back then, they only streamed the tournament matches, iirc.
On January 17 2017 14:08 Jealous wrote: That's one thing I don't understand - why does it need to be in a serious place in eSports? All I want is for it to be big enough to attract new players in Korea for leagues that we can see on stream. I couldn't care less about this Western concept of "eSports." BW already nets enough viewers and numbers to generate interest in dedicated youth, but I don't think it will ever compete with more "user-friendly" games like DotA.
We are basically talking about the same thing. If it is big enough to attract and have an avenue for new players to focus on the game full time to be able to improve and eventually compete with and beat the elites of today it has a serious place in eSports.
It doesn't have to compete with mobas or whatever, it just has to be big enough to support new players. And it really isn't today. Today BW players make their money streaming and there really isn't an avenue for new players to focus on the game professionally.
Luckily we have military service, so dominations have to end so that new players have a chance to shine, until they come back so the new players have levelled the playing field.
Eventually old players retire and new players will come back, as long as the new players are inspired by these legends.
I like how everyone is repeating the same doomsdays stuff people said when Boxer went to the military. Look how that turned out (TBLS anyone?)
I think the big question is: will the Korean fanbase and viewership transition to a newer generation of amateur players? Will this transition keep the scene sustainable enough when the current generation of players eventually fade from competitive play?
The benefits of the KeSPA pro scene allowed new pros to create storylines and build starpower through exposure in multiple televised leagues, all while being trained and nurtured in the stability of a teamhouse supported by corporate sponsors.Those storylines were further enhanced by connecting to the storylines and lineages of previous pros. Because that infrastructure has collapsed and must be rebuilt, it's uncertain whether or not these storylines and starpower can still be built up in a scene centered mostly around streaming and online leagues.
On January 18 2017 04:49 IntoTheheart wrote: How "serious" do you consider the current ASL just for comparison's sake?
I think it is pretty serious, howerer imho next ASL will have slightly less hype and attention from viewers. The same thing will happen that happend on Flash / Jaedong first streams - huge hype but every next one had a little less and less.
I might be wrong though and I wish all the best for ASL and BW in general
I think it's time we emulate the generous Korean fans and pull together some money to host a tournament for our beloved foreign scene. As a community we could keep the ball rolling and interests hot.
Crowdfunding the first tournament would be fine but It takes a long time to develop. Look how long it took the fighting game scene to be at the same level as year 2 brood war. If your content keeping things community ran like they do then building up the scene would be radically different from trying to secure corporate sponsorships.
On January 18 2017 05:36 mutantmagnet wrote: Crowdfunding the first tournament would be fine but It takes a long time to develop. Look how long it took the fighting game scene to be at the same level as year 2 brood war. If your content keeping things community ran like they do then building up the scene would be radically different from trying to secure corporate sponsorships.
Why do you always need some huge sponsorship for tournament? I'd bet most foreigners are already satisfied with a small LAN where people get a not huge price money, and transport is done via carpooling. Now there are quite a few TL.net members around Germany/belgium/netherlands and I bet most would be in for a small community gathering/tournament.
On January 18 2017 05:36 mutantmagnet wrote: Crowdfunding the first tournament would be fine but It takes a long time to develop. Look how long it took the fighting game scene to be at the same level as year 2 brood war. If your content keeping things community ran like they do then building up the scene would be radically different from trying to secure corporate sponsorships.
Why do you always need some huge sponsorship for tournament? I'd bet most foreigners are already satisfied with a small LAN where people get a not huge price money, and transport is done via carpooling. Now there are quite a few TL.net members around Germany/belgium/netherlands and I bet most would be in for a small community gathering/tournament.
Because that's how you get enough money in the scene for it to be worth to make a living professionally instead of just hobbyist stuff you do in your offhand.
On January 18 2017 05:36 mutantmagnet wrote: Crowdfunding the first tournament would be fine but It takes a long time to develop. Look how long it took the fighting game scene to be at the same level as year 2 brood war. If your content keeping things community ran like they do then building up the scene would be radically different from trying to secure corporate sponsorships.
I don't think most Korean fans are big fans of crowdfunding. It seems they'd rather just tip their favorite players. You have a good amount of the old guard getting six figures a month in balloons but you have a lot of crowdfunded stuff that seemingly gets neglected.
This post also got advertised in their B.net client and even inside the SC2 client, though just modestly among other official news.
I do think patch 1.17 is just part of their efforts to update their legacy games and isn't indicative of any big shifts in resources. The main RTS team is likely still busy working on cosmetics and co-op content for SC2, and any new project is likely at most in the earliest stages of pre-production.
That's probably a passion effort and just to show that they still recognize BW (and its players in 2017 moving to newer hardware). Obviously some people in Blizzard are excited about the ASL. I wonder how much the B.net servers cost to maintain for BW; I've always appreciated that they've kept them going. No one is buying SC1/BW so no sense in pouring many resources into it.
I wish there was some bucket in some convenience store where I live that says "donate for broodwar scene" lol I don't really do afreeca streams or follow ygosu stuff, but for sure im balls deep whenever there's a tourney and the lineup is good. SSL was really depressing in a way for me, still watched most of it but dropped off until i heard bisu was back. I'm a casual fan who played in 1999 never really got good at it but this is the only game I've ever loved, about 30 of my friends are similar but me being the most obssessed with watching the highest level of BW play.
On January 18 2017 12:23 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I wish there was some bucket in some convenience store where I live that says "donate for broodwar scene" lol I don't really do afreeca streams or follow ygosu stuff, but for sure im balls deep whenever there's a tourney and the lineup is good.
Then donate to the ASL tournament streams on afreeca. Like the one hosted by Bisudagger. Give stars to that tournaments if you wanna support the scene.
I know they run all their classic B.net servers through virtual machines. The cost may be minimal compared to what they use for any of their recent games.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/BIc5URh.png)
