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Hi there!
I have a bunch of questions on the resurgence of BW, it's potential regrowth. Some of them are probably only open for speculation now, but that's interesting as well!
Here they are:
How big is the viewership for this ASL?
How many viewers has there been on the Starleagues before?
How big are the prizepools, how have they grown?
How popular is BW in pcbangs nowadays?
Has it increased as the BW pro scene has re-emerged?
KT is a big company. Will others come along? More importantly is OGN or MBC looking to get back into it?
Is AfreecaTV doing well in South Korea?
Is streaming viewed as a serious competitor to E-sports on TV?
Is streaming taking over in korea as well as in the west, as in MBC, OGN having a lot of their views from vods and non-tv streams?
Do you think any of TBLS would like to join a team again or would they prefer a personal sponsorship, the freedom of living of their streaming, tournament winnings, eventual sponsorship? Why is Stork so nice and will win this ASL?
Do you think OGN, MBC look at BW as a competitor of viewers to lol, or as a possible new income?
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not super qualified to answer this many questions but mbc doesnt do gaming anymore, and I don't think ogn does anything game related either.
brood war is definitely top 5 popular in pc bangs, next to league, overwatch, sudden attack.
obviously playerbase and viewership increased with flash, bisu, jd, stork coming back. I don't even think that counts as a real question.
as for prize pools and exact viewer numbers, I dunno go watch it on twitch/afreeca and look.
as for other corps business plans? definitely have no idea.
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So E-sports in south korea is pretty much all streaming services today?
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51507 Posts
On January 04 2017 08:41 ruypture wrote:
not super qualified to answer this many questions but mbc doesnt do gaming anymore, and I don't think ogn does anything game related either.
lol what? ogn still remains the #1 gaming channel in korea. they just don't do any starcraft.
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I don't know if BW regrowth is going to happen in the long term, but I'm hype for ASL and have roped several friends into following it.
I'm doing my part!
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On January 04 2017 09:50 RPGabe wrote:
I don't know if BW regrowth is going to happen in the long term, but I'm hype for ASL and have roped several friends into following it.
I'm doing my part!
Glad to hear it!
Theoretically that could mean that bw will happen in the long term.These friends don't happen to be Korean E-sport-bigshots?
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On January 04 2017 09:10 SirGlinG wrote:
So E-sports in south korea is pretty much all streaming services today?
No, OGN broadcasts LoL, and a few other games.
It actually wanted to get back into televising Brood War with SSL, but the SbenuCEO got into some legal troubles so I think they either got scared off again, or hopefully they'll try again producing a league on their own, without KESPA and a Proleague it might be less of a headache for them to just run a Starleague.
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Short answer.
Yes Brood War is thriving as a streaming content in Korea as of now. Every Brood War content you see today are based off this platform, and the fans who support the living of these ex-professionals who have become streamers who sometimes compete in tournaments.
No Brood War as a competitive gaming scene has been dead for years with zero investment from big corporations. Perhaps if you really lower the standards, and compare the current Brood War scene to some other scenes based on other gaming titles, where streamers compete for prize money in various tournaments (not for the prestige, but mainly as an advertisement for their streaming), yes the competitive scene has room for growth in the sense that there is sufficient viewership, personal sponsors, and increased success of internet streaming as a content in general.
What you see today is not professional Brood War. Even the ex-professionals have said as much. It's casual streaming with tournaments hosted as a service for the thousands of fans who have supported these streaming careers. Any growth you see is made off the pockets of generous Korean Brood War fans, while the corporate sponsors have had minimal role, unless you count Afreeca TV, who has been a fairly good host to the Brood War streaming in general. Yes there are some sponsorship here and there, including some recent involvement from KT to cash in on the viewerbase, now that the Korean fans have shown their willingness to support the livelihood of dozens of Brood War streamers. Maybe more will take participation, but the root cause, and the pillars that support the streaming scene today are not these sponsors who would have left the scene for dead had the generous, true fans of Brood War not been involved in making streaming a viable career option for these ex-professionals.
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On January 04 2017 10:34 Letmelose wrote:
Short answer.
Yes Brood War is thriving as a streaming content in Korea as of now. Every Brood War content you see today are based off this platform, and the fans who support the living of these ex-professionals who have become streamers who sometimes compete in tournaments.
No Brood War as a competitive gaming scene has been dead for years with zero investment from big corporations. Perhaps if you really lower the standards, and compare the current Brood War scene to some other scenes based on other gaming titles, where streamers compete for prize money in various tournaments (not for the prestige, but mainly as an advertisement for their streaming), yes the competitive scene has room for growth in the sense that there is sufficient viewership, personal sponsors, and increased success of internet streaming as a content in general.
What you see today is not professional Brood War. Even the ex-professionals have said as much. It's casual streaming with tournaments hosted as a service for the thousands of fans who have supported these streaming careers. Any growth you see is due made off the pockets of Korean Brood War fans, and the corporate sponsors have had minimal role in that, unless you count Afreeca TV, who has been a fairly good host to the Brood War streaming in general. Yes there are some sponsorship here and there, including some recent involvement from KT to cash in on the viewerbase, now that the Korean fans have shown their willingness to support the livelihood of dozens of Brood War streamers. Maybe more will take participation, but the root cause, and the pillars that support the streaming scene today are not these sponsors who would have left the scene for dead had the generous, true fans of Brood War not been involved in making streaming a viable career option for these ex-professionals.
Yes, I definitely get the vibe like the ASL is basically an advertisement for the players on the side of Afreeca, it is in their interest to promote the players using their service, and it is in the interest of the players to play in it to keep their relevance alive.
What I'm wondering is;
1. How sustainable is the scene currently?
2. How many Brood War streamers can Afreeca actually support, I see Flash, Bisu, Shuttle, Sea, etc, get plenty of viewers, but what happens to less popular streamers like say Tyson or Sky, are they getting forced of the service now that bigger BW names are back? Did their audience diminish, can we expect them to leave the streaming scene and find another job?
3. Are there any mussings on whether OGN is willing to give Brood War another shot, they already tried it with SSL, but since Sonic got into hot water did they decide it is simply too much of a risk? Or furthermore is there any chance we get any "big" league besides ASL, for the longest time I thought it was going to be SSL alongside Kongdoo, but with SSL gone, I'm a bit worried that this is it.
4. Is there any chance we might ever get any dedicated Teamleague-type event?
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On January 04 2017 10:42 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 10:34 Letmelose wrote:
Short answer.
Yes Brood War is thriving as a streaming content in Korea as of now. Every Brood War content you see today are based off this platform, and the fans who support the living of these ex-professionals who have become streamers who sometimes compete in tournaments.
No Brood War as a competitive gaming scene has been dead for years with zero investment from big corporations. Perhaps if you really lower the standards, and compare the current Brood War scene to some other scenes based on other gaming titles, where streamers compete for prize money in various tournaments (not for the prestige, but mainly as an advertisement for their streaming), yes the competitive scene has room for growth in the sense that there is sufficient viewership, personal sponsors, and increased success of internet streaming as a content in general.
What you see today is not professional Brood War. Even the ex-professionals have said as much. It's casual streaming with tournaments hosted as a service for the thousands of fans who have supported these streaming careers. Any growth you see is due made off the pockets of Korean Brood War fans, and the corporate sponsors have had minimal role in that, unless you count Afreeca TV, who has been a fairly good host to the Brood War streaming in general. Yes there are some sponsorship here and there, including some recent involvement from KT to cash in on the viewerbase, now that the Korean fans have shown their willingness to support the livelihood of dozens of Brood War streamers. Maybe more will take participation, but the root cause, and the pillars that support the streaming scene today are not these sponsors who would have left the scene for dead had the generous, true fans of Brood War not been involved in making streaming a viable career option for these ex-professionals.
Yes, I definitely get the vibe like the ASL is basically an advertisement for the players on the side of Afreeca, it is in their interest to promote the players using their service, and it is in the interest of the players to play in it to keep their relevance alive. What I'm wondering is; 1. How sustainable is the scene currently? 2. How many Brood War streamers can Afreeca actually support, I see Flash, Bisu, Shuttle, Sea, etc, get plenty of viewers, but what happens to less popular streamers like say Tyson or Sky, are they getting forced of the service now that bigger BW names are back? Did their audience diminish, can we expect them to leave the streaming scene and find another job? 3. Are there any mussings on whether OGN is willing to give Brood War another shot, they already tried it with SSL, but since Sonic got into hot water did they decide it is simply too much of a risk? Or furthermore is there any chance we get any "big" league besides ASL, for the longest time I thought it was going to be SSL alongside Kongdoo, but with SSL gone, I'm a bit worried that this is it. 4. Is there any chance we might ever get any dedicated Teamleague-type event?
1. As long as the generous Korean fans keep up their donations, who knows. Streaming in general is a very fickle business. That's not specific to Brood War.
2. Sky and Tyson has around 200~300 viewers. Tyson earned around $2,500, this month according the source below (in Korean). More popular streamers like Sea, and Flash earned around ten times as much this month. Of course, Terror[fOu], reigns supreme above all Brood War streamers, but he has become more of an Afreeca TV icon, rather than the pure Brood War streamer he started off as.
http://starlog.ml/?file=201612all
3. No idea. From what I've heard, Ongamenet is doing fine with their League of Legends content. And perhaps you know the extent to which how they like to keep sticking what is tried and tested. It's why they fought so hard to keep Brood War as their main content despite Blizzard suing their asses off when they didn't televise Starcraft 2. I don't think there's any real incentive to clog up the schedule with Brood War, although Ongamenet does have its roots in Brood War.
4. Anything is possible. If it makes within the realm of this streaming era, it could happen. I think you're better asking people like classicyellow83 on upcoming future events.
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Thanks for your reply!
I have the same thought on how OGN would consider this. They're at a safe place now with Lol, why risk that? It's about money. What I can see happen now though is separare support for the players, as in Samsung Khan supporting Stork, hwaseung supporting JD, Kt Flash etc. That's not the investment of a whole team 365days a year. It's a safe small investment with a lot to gain. But then comes the possibility of confucius pride and money in case Afreeca has a deal with them now and wouldnt allow sponsors like them. Does aeeca have a deal like this or do they simply want them just stream through their service?
If that would happen though, then the money would grow, the financial interest in being a main sponsor for a starleague could grow. And samsung supporting one player could easily lead to supporting one more. A slow snowball effect like this could lead to a small teamhouse. More "teams" could do this.
Thinking of these steps of growth from multiple old teams or new ones, teamhouses could come alive and with them a teamleague. Kespa was once there, so was pro league. knowing how to organize such a thing is there, the amount of fans who once followed BW and still like the game is huge.
My point here is that there is a market, there's know-how, it' nnot out of the question that it could grow back into a smaller similar organization of kespas kind.
I didnt like kesPPPa, but my understanding of south korean culture and their e-sport industry tells me that it's the only way for it to grow somewhat closer to what it once was. (Not saying it's the right way). Teams are needed for the game to keep on living. Or another way for amateurs to not completely fall behind the pros. If it's going to be cartied by the stars streaming, then what happens of half of them do their military service? New blood is needed for growth and continuation, a way for new blood to hsve a chance to compete.
But we could get some nice years of bw the way things are now, it could slowly grow more and more from this. A lot of the dissapointed fans who disliked sc2 and followed into lol, could probably follow bw as well. But a backside of that coins is the confucucius culture of following the mainstream which now is lol so perhaps enough of that won't happen.
Btw. What happened when Ogn wanted to sponsor SSL?
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BW has definitely been regrowing in popularity thanks to ASL and return on TBLS.
I am however concerned that the current economic model of BW where bulk of the revenue for pros come from streaming/donation is unsustainable. Take a look at the number of viewers for each stream on side of TL website and its obvious that handful of top streamers get thousands of viewers while the majority of streamers struggle to attract even a hundred viewers.
I recently watched a group talk show featuring Britney, Horang2, Last, Guemchi, Rain, and couple of others. Part of their discussion was return of TBLS to BW scene and how that made it much more difficult it is for the other streamers to attract viewers. While those streamers and myself agree that TBLS deserve their success thanks to their BW accomplishments and skills, you can't have a sustainable BW scene with just a handful number of full time players.
My guess is that one needs around $1500~$2000 monthly in Korea to subsist, but many streamers won't earn that amount forcing them to leave the scene 
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They should just start a e-sports house and host all of the players and stream every game they play. And then they share the money "equally".
Communist Gaming YEY!
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It's my understanding that since the rise of ASL, back from season 1, even the numbers on the Fish server have increased by thousands.
I saw Bisu had 30k viewers on his stream the other day. I think it's apparent it's growing and thriving. Will it stay? I think so.
Will it stay for the long term? Let's wait and see.
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I think the big question is whether BW attracts new players and if new players can challenge the old ones over time.
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Croatia9527 Posts
One thing that's pretty encouraging is Fish numbers are back to what they were in like 2011/12. They were at the lowest in 2014 or so, with like ~13k players online at Korean peak hours. These days they are around ~20k as far as I know.
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On January 04 2017 08:41 ruypture wrote:
brood war is definitely top 5 popular in pc bangs, next to league, overwatch, sudden attack.
It has consistently been ranked 6 for a while now, behind what you said and Fifa and Dungeon & Fighter.
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Bisutopia19299 Posts
I think 2016 was a huge growth year for Brood War. There is a lot of growing interest. The right people night to step forward and take chances on investing in the scene. Like ZerO said in his interview, everyone is afraid to take chances. The people who are working tirelessly to try things are making very little money off the scene too. I think in 2017 we will see new people step up to the plate and also sponsors like KT will continue to invest too.
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as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
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On January 05 2017 23:29 shadymmj wrote:
as a flash fan, i think theres a problem with him earning 25k a month from streaming and other b-c level players getting one-tenth of that.
there needs to be a bit of organisation so that the 20~ streamers around now can all make a decent living for sustainability's sake. no point having TBLS making big money and the rest of them just quitting.
To put it bluntly, I think it's ridiculous how some people here are asking how there should be more money in the scene, or why there isn't a fairer distribution of wealth as if they are entitled to it.
This entire conversation we're having is only taking place due to the non-stop donations of various Korean fans over the years. No investments. No teams. No corporate sponsors. Just thousands of viewers who put their hard earned money into the pockets of these players, and once the streaming industry grew, we now have more interest from people all around trying to get their share of the pie. Now that these donations helped the scene grow large enough to pique your interest, you think you get to say who gets how much? Where's this arrogance coming from?
Who are you to decide who gets what? How much money have you donated towards these less popular players? Who are you to make light of the amount of money fans of less known players are donating? You don't get to say a single say, unless Flash somehow took the money from the donations you personally gave to these players. If you are just a free loader like I am, don't judge the people who are generous enough to donate their money to these streamers. It's an very poor taste.
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