EPTViewership and regrowth of Broodwar - Page 3
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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Scarlett`
Canada2392 Posts
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malady
United States600 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1013 Posts
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1704 Posts
Also, the Starcraft on show in the ASL right now is such good watching and there was fantastic turnout and plenty of young faces both for the qualifiers and as audience for the live shows, so I see no cause for gloom there. If you want BW to survive and want to be a part of that, at least play. Otherwise, commentate, run a tourney, a news update vodcast, watch the great tournaments and tweet about them, paint Kerrigan on your stomach and go forth into the streets... Anything! | ||
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Jealous
10253 Posts
Closer to the subject at hand, what I'm trying to say is that the growth, in my opinion, is largely due to one big name after another returning to BW these past 1.5 years. The dissolution of SC2PL opened the metaphorical flood gates for all of the players that were in SC2Jail like Jaedong (although I've heard people saying he's played BW for a while even during SC2 career). With no such future "major" transitions and with all the top players already playing, I don't see the resurgence gaining as much traction in the future as it did recently. In other words, the growth will slow down now, imo. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On January 06 2017 07:38 Shield wrote: This is called communism. Do you have a job? Imagine you have to work N hours, but you like to do N+1 hours because you like to work. Imagine what you do, e.g. making pizzas, is better than what your colleague is doing. So, your pizza is tastier than the other guy's. Do you still have to be paid the same salary? If you say yes, then you are lying. Do you want to earn more than Flash? Play more than him, win more than him. You should earn more than him in this case. It's called competition. This is what sports is about. Hot tip, when you use a metaphor in an explanation, it can be a useful tool for giving listeners shortcuts to understand what you mean. When you use metaphors in a retort, it's called a strawman and you fool yourself into thinking you're making a point when you're really attacking something no one said. I don't agree with shady, just saying. Usually there's a small piece of a bigger pie argument to be made in these types of situations, but in this case the pie isn't gonna get larger just because you share more. I think afreeca is doing a good job, I am enjoying ASL, and if and when there are more resources, maybe the scene can support a larger player pool. But as far as Flash making 25k a month? Yeah, I am siding with you Shield. Flash's personal income has nothing to do with supporting a larger scene. There's no reason to think the scene would be more healthy or strong if he gave half his income to weaker players getting no views. He would just be paying people to play StarCraft with no one watching. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 06 2017 04:47 BisuDagger wrote: I guess I can speak since I've put more money into the scene then I've earned from it, countless free hours of news content and streaming, donated money to Korean players and casters within the past year, seeked Korean sponsors (and still do despite not knowing any Korean) and has remained active even after the SC2 move: 1. I 100% agree we cannot dictate where people put their money. I am a supporter of people spending money how they want. 2. What we can do is certainly encourage fans to pool their money to create something more then just sponsored matches. There is value to be gained if we were able to show the top earners how valuable it is to invest in other players. 3. Important figures such as KCM uses his own savings to sponsor matches such as KCM and gets nothing in return. While that's donator's choice, it's unsustainable for him and then we lose someone who is very important to the scene as he adds age, wisdom, and the tenacity to pursue sponsors. 4. Failure to support Kim Carrier and in fact certain people have said nasty things to him has pushed him away from the scene too. We can certainly work towards creating a friendlier environment towards people who have put in the effort outside of playing the game. 5. Clan creations such as Moo and Neox are actually great steps forward into creating team/family environments where players practice and depend on each other and get competitive with other clans It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious. I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite. 1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand. People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On January 05 2017 14:04 alprostadil wrote: BW has definitely been regrowing in popularity thanks to ASL and return on TBLS. I am however concerned that the current economic model of BW where bulk of the revenue for pros come from streaming/donation is unsustainable. Take a look at the number of viewers for each stream on side of TL website and its obvious that handful of top streamers get thousands of viewers while the majority of streamers struggle to attract even a hundred viewers. I recently watched a group talk show featuring Britney, Horang2, Last, Guemchi, Rain, and couple of others. Part of their discussion was return of TBLS to BW scene and how that made it much more difficult it is for the other streamers to attract viewers. While those streamers and myself agree that TBLS deserve their success thanks to their BW accomplishments and skills, you can't have a sustainable BW scene with just a handful number of full time players. My guess is that one needs around $1500~$2000 monthly in Korea to subsist, but many streamers won't earn that amount forcing them to leave the scene  That's interesting. Streaming could be a very difficult financial model for bw. It seems that way. This could lead to a scene with only tbls able to practice as a living, amateurs having no chance of reaching them( except expros like sea etc). Streaming as a financial base would need more options, maybe continual streaming events including other talent could give more players a chance but that's a risky financial build compared to teams in a league.( For up and coming players and for a growing scene.) | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On January 06 2017 00:33 Harem wrote: This isn't permanent or sustainable either. TBLS is going to military sooner or later. (really soon in Bisu's case) At which age do they have to do their military service? | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On January 06 2017 01:49 Letmelose wrote: Everybody who left it for dead or just watched idly watched from the side lines shouldn't really complain about the all the problems of this non-sustainable scene in my opinion. We all know this isn't permanent. We all know this isn't sustainable. We all know how fragile, and different it is from the days when it was the centre of the most advanced e-Sports industry. We know. Does anyone realize know how insulting it is to the fans that cared for this scene enough for us to have this discussion? How ungrateful. How ironic after all these years of negligence towards the welfare of these players people supposedly care so much about. I hear you Letmelose! My perspective and many others here(I believe) is a outzoomed one, where focus is on the survivability of the scene. No meaning to condescend on those who helped broodwar keep breathing as it "died". For example when a user suggested a communistic teamhouse where streaming-incomes would be shared, that is to me a suggestion for the future, not a comment on how it has been. User was warned for this post | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
The plan would be to get the best of the best (Jaedong, Flash, Stork,...) to take on a pupil and to foster their growth. The pupils would be the one's that have to play in a tournament. Winnings are divided among the winning pupil coach couple. The tournament could just be an online event with the coaches streaming, and even the pupils. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On January 06 2017 02:34 Letmelose wrote: Notice how I don't ask for more donations, a different model of income for the streamers, or fairer distribution of donations as if I'm entitled to such demands. Especially considering the fact that my contributions to the welfare of these streamers are non-existent. Who the hell am I to complain about the financial balance of the scene as someone who might as well not as have existed when the professional scene was being killed off, and had zero presence in the streaming revenue of these players? Why is everybody here talking about the financial difficulties of the scene as if they directly were part of what kept the scene alive? It's really condescending towards the people who actually helped the scene, and I'm not sorry about being blunt about pointing that out. Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it? | ||
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Jealous
10253 Posts
On January 06 2017 09:36 SirGlinG wrote: At which age do they have to do their military service? Most people do it at a much earlier age than the current ages of TBLS. AFAIK you can no longer do it once you've hit somewhere around 30? It should be noted that according to Korean age, Bisu is 29 I think; not sure if this is the age that has to be less than 30 or our western idea of age is the qualifying factor. It is also heavily frowned upon to not complete military service. It is seen as transition to respected manhood AFAIK. If the AFAIK haven't tipped you off, I'm not 100% sure about the above information so if I'm incorrect about anything I'm sure someone will correct me but I'm pretty sure this is the case. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On January 06 2017 03:51 notgayDragon wrote: I'm not qualified by any means to answer about the future of BW involving $$$, but Fish broke 24K the other day and it's pushing 25K on weekend nights. There's a growth in players, that's for sure. I've stopped using PC bangs as a measure because of the changes in how they work, how games are logged, and the people that go there. Full grown adults are becoming less common and PC bangs are turning into an after-school event for kids. That's not to say BW isn't popular with the young ones (we have preteens in our clan), but rather what the young ones tend to play. Lots of League, lots of Overwatch, and some other games that have discounts and perks when played in PC bangs. In fact, Fish is well known for conflicting with PC bang internet connections. A good chunk of PC bangs can't handle UPnP on so many systems at once, it's a better experience to just play from home. That's sad to hear. But a situation BW will have to deal with to survive. How do they reach new bloods? Young players who didn't grow up with it, or just follow the mainstream of gaming. If the scen keeps on growing, and it had an impact on younger players then PCBangs would have to adapt to that. That shouldn't be impossible at all, if it's still the 6th most played game then that shouldn't be at risk atm at least. But it's an issue that could cause problems if Bw does not grow and for example a windows 11 would arrive without easy compitability with BW. Glad to hear about the Fish numbers though! This issue shouldn't be an issue within at least this year. | ||
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Filco
France154 Posts
On January 06 2017 09:01 Letmelose wrote: It is disgusting for those to put down the efforts of the donations of people such as yourself, while doing nothing of substance and simply saying there should be more content, or more sponsorship, and trying to get the moral high ground by judging the imperfections of the current scene. That was what was making me furious. I've never had the time to thank the people who helped sustain the scene throughout the hard times. I don't know how much you donated. But it doesn't matter. The fact that you donated at all puts you above most of the people around here, and gives you the right to have at least some say without being total hypocrite. 1) As one of the many who spent his effort, time, and money without any return, just out of the love for the game, you must realize if every single one of people who claim to have loved Brood War dedicated themselves this much in the first place, we wouldn't be in this predicament. It's hard to sustain the living of so many people with donations alone, even with the generosity of people like yourself. 2) Investment is a such an easy catch phrase to say if it's not your own money involved in it. Sure it's a great idea, if someone else with tons of money does the investing. It was a great idea before, and ever since the investment stopped taking place. It's good to hope for it, work for it, but saying it should be in place is such an entitled thing to say. If large corporate investment was worth fighting for so much, we wouldn't have seen Blizzard have such an easy time ending it. If investment was such an easy thing to gain (on a large scale like there used to do), we would have seen it by now. 3) We lose people of incredible value all the time, it's what happens in a scene that is not growing. How do we support everyone and everything of worth, unless it's not out of our own pockets? Oh right, that's what's already happening, and people with more popularity are getting the overwhelming percentage of those donations. 4) People say nasty things. People turn on their heroes once they have full control over their income, and don't get what they want in return. It's what this scene has devolved into. It's been that way forever, and people were totally passive when they had the only timing in their lives to prevent that from happening. Is it okay for us to judge those who have donated their hard earned money without any return just because we think Kim Carrier needed more respect? Where was the respect when his career as a caster got ended? Why does Flash need to share his income with legends like Kim Carrier? Why is all the responsibility to bring this scene to greater heights on the shoulders of people who have not been the cause of all this limitation, but the shining light despite these limitations? 5) Say what you want about Terror[fOu], I think he has been beneficial for the overall scene. Perhaps he will use his popularity he gained through streaming on Afreeca to help the growth of the current Brood War scene. But it is not up for us to decide, or demand. People all say they want more for Brood War. As one of the few who actually did stuff instead of being a complaining, useless dead weight that did nothing to actually support the scene and the players financially (myself included), thank you for your input. The mere fact that you donated any amount makes your opinions and passion for the scene a million times more valuable than mine. I suggest you calm down. You keep on saying that we, yourself included, have no right to formulate an opinion. And you sort of express some weird paranoia that we all criticize and blame others. We just don't. We're all friends here. We all play and have been playing this game, which is already great and actually one of the best ways to keep it alive. Investing money is a thing, and yes we need to participate to make it a sustainable and profitable economical activity. But playing the game, and being so faithful to it is already something great. We are all brood war fans here, and we're all here for a reason : we love the game. Our concerns about the game's future is totally legitimate. A certain thing called freedom of speech makes us totally entitled to express our opinion just about anything. That's actually the very principle of a forum in the first place. It's like on this other thread (general discussion) I asked why terror's walls are so disgusting (which they are except if you consider weird shit on a wall to be clean) and you did not give me the start of an answer in like three replies. All you did was basicaly explain me that I was nobody and that my opinion was worthless... Just caaaaalm down. You make some good points, but your tone makes it impossible to pay attention to them. | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1013 Posts
On January 06 2017 09:36 SirGlinG wrote: At which age do they have to do their military service? 29-30 I believe. | ||
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SirGlinG
Sweden933 Posts
On January 06 2017 08:32 ImbaTosS wrote: I no longer care to speculate on anything relating to the health and future of BW. It keeps living against sometimes apparently insuperable odds, and I keep playing despite being self-employed and eternally busy, and with a girlfriend and social life and sports and other commitments. I feel like... If all this hasn't stopped it being such a hugely enjoyable game which people play, and I play, then what will? Maybe something, maybe not, but it's not really even worth contemplating any more. Also, the Starcraft on show in the ASL right now is such good watching and there was fantastic turnout and plenty of young faces both for the qualifiers and as audience for the live shows, so I see no cause for gloom there. If you want BW to survive and want to be a part of that, at least play. Otherwise, commentate, run a tourney, a news update vodcast, watch the great tournaments and tweet about them, paint Kerrigan on your stomach and go forth into the streets... Anything! I'll just put this here: <3 !!!!!! There's hope, hope can be made! | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On January 06 2017 09:47 SirGlinG wrote: Do you think we should not discuss this at all because we are not TBLS? How else do we talk about it in that case? How else is any discussion of a nations financial possibilities or companys growth put to action? We are all here members of a forum, the premise is that we are only just that, this discussion is based on that level, therafter we all put our information together to form a bigger picture. That's what I'm here for, you part in this thread has been thankful because you have added more information. But your idea of what can or can not talk of makes the idea of forums sound impossible. I will discuss and I will ask questions. Deal with it? If a constructive disccusion took place, and most of the comments were about how we can help the scene further, and how we should find ways make this all better, I would have been much more greatful in my tone of voice. Instead, I got triggered when people just started to point out all the flaws in the scene, and seemed to demand certain things from the donators, or the streamers themselves as if they were entitled to such opinions without providing any solutions themselves. Considering how all this active discussion is taking place because of the donations that kept the careers of these streamers alive after people left it for dead, I thought it was incredibly arrogant of people to suggest Flash shouldn't receive the donations he gets, or how the current scene was unsustainable. I expressed my frustrations not just on the current state of the scene, but the way in which some people who did nothing to help it in times of need started to voice their discontent on how the way things are currently. Deal with it. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
Was it a convenience issue? I think you will see more foreigners or even people outside of korea in general chipping in if Afreeca haven't make it so difficult in the first place for anyone outside korea. or was there some other ethical/personal reason? | ||
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