EPTCryoc will face LRM)INF3cted in a short series and it will be casted by FlashFTW.
Map: C.A.S development thread - Page 4
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Jukado
805 Posts
Cryoc will face LRM)INF3cted in a short series and it will be casted by FlashFTW. | ||
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bITt.mAN
Switzerland3693 Posts
Fun idea: fiddle with the bridges so that they spell out something in Korean :D | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2142 Posts
On November 20 2016 23:28 CardinalAllin wrote: -NegativeZero- Im curious how did you work it out? As in what order did things come to you? 1. the middle word being "and" meant the 1st and 3rd words were both nouns 2. "Royal. Are you Royalty? I wonder if you are a head of state." -> both words have to do with kings 3. hat, wand -> crown, scepter | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
@-NegativeZero- Nicely done, I hope you all enjoyed the game. Quick update, BisuDagger is also going to be casting with FlashFTW in a dual cast, so you have that to look forward to. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1530 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On November 23 2016 14:38 -NegativeZero- wrote: 1. the middle word being "and" meant the 1st and 3rd words were both nouns 2. "Royal. Are you Royalty? I wonder if you are a head of state." -> both words have to do with kings 3. hat, wand -> crown, scepter What about first of the last and last of the first? Also just because the middle word is and doesn't mean the other words have to be nouns? You know like "big and beautiful" :D Also, CardinAllin, why call your map Crown and Scepter, what's the connection? | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10302 Posts
stream is up for the showmatches. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10302 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [DONT READ UNTIL YOUVE SEEN MAP] + Here's the game commentary. and some thoughts for map COMPARED TO FIGHTING SPIRIT (not an overall matchup balance noted) ZvT: Zerg favored. The extra ramp helps Zerg with surrounds on the Terran when they move out and helps with backstabs. Definite plus there. Otherwise no real changes to the map from FS but this definitely helps Zerg slightly. TvP: We feel like we need to test some of this out, but we think that the turtle player is behind in this matchup because of the low resources. So Terran here is the turtle player and will most likely run dry very quickly in TvP matchups. The extra ramp doesn't impact too much, just stick another dragoon on the inside ramp. PvZ: Zerg is definitely hindered in playstyle here since you can't really go for the closer 3rd base without zealots absolutely destroying you (or you can put up like 10 sunkens and lose all your economy). So a linear playstyle from Zerg, forced to play 4 base turtle which I dislike. Protoss on the other hand will have difficulty securing their own third because of the difficult turtle style and the extra ramp that helps Zerg's with surrounds and attacks. Overall, if the Zerg likes turtle 4 base style, Zerg favored. If the Zerg is more 3 base aggro, it's a bit trickier for them. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
@B-royal Heres how the clues linked: Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat Last of the First And First of the Last Basically the last word of the first line, and the first word of the last line. As for the map name, well mostly I just think it sounds good and makes a good acronym. Obviously its the map to rule over all other maps. Its 'fit for a king' as the saying goes, and ofcourse you are all kings and queens to me. @BisuDagger, sent you a PM. Also I hope your mom has got a big bush now. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19307 Posts
On November 27 2016 07:56 CardinalAllin wrote: @Freakling yep when the vod of the showmatch is ready, Im going to make the new thread for the finished map. Thats when the map files will go live. @B-royal Heres how the clues linked: Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat D Last of the First And First of the Last Basically the last word of the first line, and the first word of the last line. As for the map name, well mostly I just think it sounds good and makes a good acronym. Obviously its the map to rule over all other maps. Its 'fit for a king' as the saying goes, and ofcourse you are all kings and queens to me. @BisuDagger, sent you a PM. Also I hope your mom has got a big bush now. That bush comment could be taken out of context lolol. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qXYjslH.jpg) The extra bridge and the fact that they are thinner will affect things though. Play testing is in order. In ZvP, zerg can take the close base as his 3rd if he wishes in my opinion just fine. And I also think Protoss can take his 3rd base in PvZ just fine. Infected was saying that he thinks zealots might be able to attack the close high ground 3rd base of zerg more easily than on FS by using the 2nd bridge. I dont think there is a problem here. I believe the zerg close 3rd base style is completely viable and effective on CAS. Also, what is wrong with the main mineral formation? They are awesomely shaped! One of the great things about them is that you can build a spire behind it and the spire will be very protected from lings. It makes ZvZ much more stable. The map will be changed so you cant build a townhall behind the minerals at 12 o clock. @BisuDagger I will not be held accountable for the dark places your mind frequents. My comment was surely innocent of suggestion. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10302 Posts
On November 27 2016 08:44 CardinalAllin wrote: @FlashFTW, in PvT Cryoc was talking about how you can put a dragoon on the ramp that leads into the 3rd to block vults. You are mixing up ramps and bridges. Ofcourse rather than blocking the ramp into the 3rd with a goon, Protoss can instead pylon wall it very easily. See this pic: + Show Spoiler + The extra bridge and the fact that they are thinner will affect things though. Play testing is in order. In ZvP, zerg can take the close base as his 3rd if he wishes in my opinion just fine. And I also think Protoss can take his 3rd base in PvZ just fine. Infected was saying that he thinks zealots might be able to attack the close high ground 3rd base of zerg more easily than on FS by using the 2nd bridge. I dont think there is a problem here. I believe the zerg close 3rd base style is completely viable and effective on CAS. Also, what is wrong with the main mineral formation? They are awesomely shaped! One of the great things about them is that you can build a spire behind it and the spire will be very protected from lings. It makes ZvZ much more stable. The map will be changed so you cant build a townhall behind the minerals at 12 o clock. @BisuDagger I will not be held accountable for the dark places your mind frequents. My comment was surely innocent of suggestion. Interpretation abuse was unintended. The pylon ramp towards the inside isn't preferable since if terran drops there or goes for an attack, you can't hold the top with goons unless you're going to block some of your army inside your own 3rd base. that's why its not preferable. Zerg's 3rd base at the high ground side bases is VERY difficult to hold. On maps like fighting spirit, zerg tries to hold a one way choke with their third by being able to protect the one bridge and then the ramp leading to the middle of the map. with this extra bridge set up, zerg no long has that option to protect their 3rd via the natural choke. That's why it's a lot harder. They aren't optimized is what Cryoc was complaining about, he didn't like how flat they were and it messed up pathing and actually made him have less minerals than on FS. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
On ZvP, yes I fully understand the concept in your argument. Still I think zerg taking a close 3rd is a completely viable and effective strategy here. The strength of your conviction makes me think I wont be able to persuade you otherwise (with words). So Im not going to try right now. Again, play testing is the next step. I have resource debugged twice so far during development with all races at all bases. However Ive changed other things since and this can affect mining. If something is really bad then I will fix it. Im going to be relying on you guys to tell me problems you have with the map. No matter how small if there is something you think maybe could be better post or PM me. Resource mining is something I would like to be as good as can be. I really like the shape of the mineral formations as things stand but if something is mining really badly then it will be changed. Again, I encourage you to let me know about these things, so thanks. For the long answer about mineral formations (might interest some people I dunno): + Show Spoiler + Ah the mineral formation. Many people are under the impression that FS has a magic shape that is 'the best'. Im afraid it doesnt work like that. I cant be sure if you are one of those or not though but incase you are Ill talk about it a little. A shape isnt inherently optimised and cant just be copied from one map to another. Lets quickly look at La Mancha + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/7/70/La_Mancha.jpg) Rose changed away from his already perfect mineral shape to something different here on his own more modern map. Notice too that the shape is remarkably similar to CAS, particularly the 2 mains on the left hand side! Eddy + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/7/7f/%284%29Eddy_Overview.jpg) You can see here in Freaklings map every main has a different shape formation, but be sure they are optimised. During development so far I have twice done resource debugging at all bases for all races and they were mining well. However, I decided to make further edits to the map in other areas and this can negatively affect things. However, resources are the final thing that is done to polish a map as they can be temperamental. You have to start playtesting a map to catch wider gameplay issues and then go back and try to do resources at the very end. Consider though that technically if a map were to have slower mining (or faster) than what you are used to and for all races at all the bases equally, then there isnt a balance problem necessarily. omg I have less minerals than I would have on FS, but if the other player does too, well perhaps its not so bad. In general, playing on CAS things are going to feel a little different to what you are used to, but thats a good thing. Remember the mineral patches are 1200 not 1500 anyway. But look I was just talking 'technically' about a hypothetical map. For CAS I would prefer that mining rates were similar to FS and are quite fast, and that you can do familiar build orders in the way you are used to. So yeah, keep being vocal and nag me if you have a niggle! | ||
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Freakling
Germany1530 Posts
On November 27 2016 12:40 CardinalAllin wrote: Some players pylon wall to make it tight, some players pylon wall to make it a thinner gap (often leaving a 1 tile gap if they are able to on the map). For example Horang2 would often wall tight and trap 1 goon inside, while Dear for example would often use 2 pylons to slim the choke down to a 1 tile gap. Players can choose to do what they prefer on CAS. The point I was making is that the pylon walling options on this map only help make it easier. You can combine putting a goon on the ramp with a pylon wall that retains a 1 tile gap if thats what you want to do. If vultures plant mines infront of the goon and you cant focus the mines down, you could retreat the goon up the ramp and fall back to the 1 tile gap choke in the pylon wall that you made. The point Flash was trying to make is that it is actually not advisable to wall both chokes completely shut. You want the "inner" choke (the one facing your nat, to be permeable to your own units to be able to reinforce and defend the expansion against attacks and drops. The best setup for mid game would probably be two pylons and a cannon for the outer ramp and a goon blocking the inner one. They aren't optimized is what Cryoc was complaining about, he didn't like how flat they were and it messed up pathing and actually made him have less minerals than on FS. That's not the fault of the shape of the formation, though, just the randomness of our beloved BW pathfinding... Or put another way: even if the exact formation from Fighting Spirit had been put there, it would still be messed up.There's need for optimization, though. That much is right. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany912 Posts
On November 27 2016 12:40 CardinalAllin wrote: Some players pylon wall to make it tight, some players pylon wall to make it a thinner gap (often leaving a 1 tile gap if they are able to on the map). For example Horang2 would often wall tight and trap 1 goon inside, while Dear for example would often use 2 pylons to slim the choke down to a 1 tile gap. Players can choose to do what they prefer on CAS. The point I was making is that the pylon walling options on this map only help make it easier. You can combine putting a goon on the ramp with a pylon wall that retains a 1 tile gap if thats what you want to do. If vultures plant mines infront of the goon and you cant focus the mines down, you could retreat the goon up the ramp and fall back to the 1 tile gap choke in the pylon wall that you made. On ZvP, yes I fully understand the concept in your argument. Still I think zerg taking a close 3rd is a completely viable and effective strategy here. The strength of your conviction makes me think I wont be able to persuade you otherwise (with words). So Im not going to try right now. Again, play testing is the next step. I have resource debugged twice so far during development with all races at all bases. However Ive changed other things since and this can affect mining. If something is really bad then I will fix it. Im going to be relying on you guys to tell me problems you have with the map. No matter how small if there is something you think maybe could be better post or PM me. Resource mining is something I would like to be as good as can be. I really like the shape of the mineral formations as things stand but if something is mining really badly then it will be changed. Again, I encourage you to let me know about these things, so thanks. For the long answer about mineral formations (might interest some people I dunno): + Show Spoiler + Ah the mineral formation. Many people are under the impression that FS has a magic shape that is 'the best'. Im afraid it doesnt work like that. I cant be sure if you are one of those or not though but incase you are Ill talk about it a little. A shape isnt inherently optimised and cant just be copied from one map to another. Lets quickly look at La Mancha + Show Spoiler + Rose changed away from his already perfect mineral shape to something different here on his own more modern map. Notice too that the shape is remarkably similar to CAS, particularly the 2 mains on the left hand side! Eddy + Show Spoiler + You can see here in Freaklings map every main has a different shape formation, but be sure they are optimised. During development so far I have twice done resource debugging at all bases for all races and they were mining well. However, I decided to make further edits to the map in other areas and this can negatively affect things. However, resources are the final thing that is done to polish a map as they can be temperamental. You have to start playtesting a map to catch wider gameplay issues and then go back and try to do resources at the very end. Consider though that technically if a map were to have slower mining (or faster) than what you are used to and for all races at all the bases equally, then there isnt a balance problem necessarily. omg I have less minerals than I would have on FS, but if the other player does too, well perhaps its not so bad. In general, playing on CAS things are going to feel a little different to what you are used to, but thats a good thing. Remember the mineral patches are 1200 not 1500 anyway. But look I was just talking 'technically' about a hypothetical map. For CAS I would prefer that mining rates were similar to FS and are quite fast, and that you can do familiar build orders in the way you are used to. So yeah, keep being vocal and nag me if you have a niggle! Just watch the first game with me being top right, the SCVs for the top two patches take a really long path to return the minerals and there is no way to fix it with a depot without blocking the gas. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Both Freakling and FlashFTW are using phrases like 'it isnt preferable', 'not advisable' 'you want [to do it this way]'. I pointed out that actually you are wrong, because some players (and I gave the example of Horang2) will choose to quite often wall both entrances tightly. Sometimes players will trap a single goon inside and sometimes they choose not to. So it is preferable for them to have that option available. The map accomodates both tactics. The best setup for mid game would probably be two pylons and a cannon for the outer ramp and a goon blocking the inner one. If that is what you wanted to do as a player you can easily do that ofcourse. (the timing of when/if to get a cannon is very personal. Many players wont get cannons until later, many wont get them at all etc etc). I said in my last post, if you are a player that likes to block the inner ramp with a goon, you can combine that with a pylon wall above that has a 1 tile gap. This way you can fall back to it if vultures plant mines next to the goon. It provides a second choke to retreat to and this allows you to repel the vults much easier. Its a common basic tactic used by many pros. Dont need to talk about this anymore. @Cryoc, in version 0.9 everything was working. Like I say I made some edits to the map and this can create new mining bugs. Ill do some more mining tests today using a stopwatch. We want atleast the mains and nats to be good from the start, and as the map approaches final version of 1.0 and any other problems have been ironed out, thats when its crunch time to do final polish on resource debugging if its still needed (Im talking about the lategame bases here, mains and nats will be under higher scrutiny the whole time). | ||
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Freakling
Germany1530 Posts
On November 27 2016 20:27 CardinalAllin wrote:Dont need to talk about this anymore. Oh, come on. Discussing the merits and drawbacks of different strategies is never wrong. Not all players may even know about all the possible quirks you can implement... | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
@Freakling its just we are having a really long conversation about something that none of us think is a problem in the first place. FlashFTW said "The extra ramp [he meant bridge] doesn't impact too much, just stick another dragoon on the inside ramp. " Paraphrasing I said 'yep and you can also do these other things if thats your style'. Then you guys said no thats a bad idea. I respond some pros like to do it so having the option available is just a nice detail to point out. So yeah hopefully Ive cleared that up. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
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