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Jukado
805 Posts
Under the desk, a tower is humming On the surface, a mouse is clicking A vehicle passes and light seeps in through the blind Revealing the outline of a figure infront of the computer Composed, concentrating, creating Meanwhile a rival’s curiosity grows The usual comm channels are suspiciously quiet Is a new project underway? Unscrupulous methods of investigation are set in motion Run Icewall Cracker… Accessing files… 32 jpegs found… Assembling… GIF + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RoQKKlD.gif) | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
-the top left nat is rotated in the other direction -there are 2 bridges per spawn Perhaps I will take a look at the raw file in detail later, the cracker thinks: Master Blueprint (can view in SCMDraft2, not playable ingame) But what is the name of the map? The eyes flit back and forth, speed reading, searching for a name. However, the only information is an acronym and what seems like it might be a cryptic clue. C.A.S Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat I wonder what C.A.S stands for? Overview ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ePlXTNC.jpg) | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
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joust85
Canada53 Posts
On September 25 2016 07:24 -NegativeZero- wrote: it's "cardinal allin sucks", right? Haha :p The wonky symmetry is odd. Very FS-like but would like to see it finished. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
And I wanted to ask: Is there a way you will try to make a Space Fighting Spirit since we already have Badlands, Ice, Desert and Twilight ones. I'll be really glad to see it. CardinalAllinSpirit new ladder map incoming... | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
On September 25 2016 08:49 RoomOfMush wrote: So the map has no symmetry at all it seems? well it's half rotational, half reflectional "symmetry" like lost temple and r-point isn't the rush distance between the top 2 spawns a little too short though? | ||
c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
On September 25 2016 09:29 -NegativeZero- wrote: well it's half rotational, half reflectional "symmetry" like lost temple and r-point isn't the rush distance between the top 2 spawns a little too short though? An idea (a stupid one): Put ridges or some destructible buildings/mineral lines ala Blitz X in the middle area between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock Edit - acronym: Cardinal's Asymmetrical Symmetry | ||
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LaStScan
Korea (South)1289 Posts
 Too much similar maps imo(4 player maps) | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
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halomonian
Brazil255 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10671 Posts
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zobz
Canada2175 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On September 25 2016 10:58 LaStScan wrote: Can we possibly have a 3 player map? Too much similar maps imo(4 player maps) I second this suggestion. Please stop cloning FS and make a 3 player map, Cardinal :D How about this one (I even have my own + Show Spoiler [gif] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f9o4a3Q.gif) | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
On September 25 2016 23:07 Freakling wrote: I second this suggestion. Please stop cloning FS and make a 3 player map, Cardinal :D How about this one (I even have my own + Show Spoiler [gif] + I third this suggestion. It's a nice job and all but 4 player maps are all we see now a days. Am I the only one that wish there were more maps like blue storm? Hi Cardinal! :D | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On September 26 2016 02:06 B-royal wrote: + Show Spoiler [Doable!] +or a 5 player map ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ApDtdsg.gif) | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
On September 25 2016 07:24 -NegativeZero- wrote: it's "cardinal allin sucks", right? Fair enough, I guess I asked for that lol. On September 25 2016 07:49 outscar wrote: How about instead of vertical center, make 'em horizontal, so it will be a bit different from FS? Also why only top left but not also bottom right, now it looks funny. And I wanted to ask: Is there a way you will try to make a Space Fighting Spirit since we already have Badlands, Ice, Desert and Twilight ones. Nice idea, Ive actually played with it already and it would work ok. There will be a base there, and horizontal mineral lines plus gas are not as space efficient and I think are less attractive too, so will probably keep it vertical. The middle will have lots of rocks and trees to micro around. The plan was always to only rotate the top left nat, to give lots of variety. Theres already a space tileset FS too. On September 25 2016 08:49 RoomOfMush wrote: So the map has no symmetry at all it seems? The top bases are shifted to the right, and the left bases are shifted up. The top right nat is lower than the top left nat. So the map is made without the symmetry tool or anything but yeah like -NegativeZero- said it’s a mix; a rotational map with 1 spawn in the other direction or an axial map with 1 spawn in the other direction or however you want to describe it. But technically that means no there isnt any symmetry (even if the mirror tool had been used for 3 of the spawns). On September 25 2016 09:29 -NegativeZero- wrote: isn't the rush distance between the top 2 spawns a little too short though? Its currently 20 seconds from the nat entrance to the nat entrance. Its an area Im looking at. On September 25 2016 09:55 c3rberUs wrote: An idea (a stupid one): Put ridges or some destructible buildings/mineral lines ala Blitz X in the middle area between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock No thats not a stupid idea, see above its something Im looking at. Also, all ideas are welcomed. Showing the map at this stage is to get thoughts. On September 25 2016 10:58 LaStScan wrote: Can we possibly have a 3 player map? Too much similar maps imo(4 player maps) Im going to finish this map, and I don’t have a plan for after that. 4 player maps with this kind of layout are uncommon. And there aren’t that many 4 player maps with nats that have air gaps around them like FS (which is a thing that is more common on 3 player maps). This map has the slightly irregular feeling that a 3 player map has, while still having a familiar feeling to the most popular map. On September 25 2016 13:25 halomonian wrote: top and bottom left "third" seem against the grain on the simmetry. Also, would love a mineral only nat! I would like them to have a bit of variation but still be roughly the same size (16 tiles wide x 18 tiles high). I think they are shaping up ok but the shape of terrain in general is not finished yet, so nothing is final. The nats will have gas in though. @Freakling: The reason Im making a 4 player map is partly so it can be used for 2v2. @3FFA: Hiya @GGzerG, zobz, Scaramanga: Thankyou And no C.A.S doesn’t stand for Cardinal's Asymmetrical Symmetry or CardinalAllinSpirit either haha. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10149 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GSrV5XV.jpg) And Ive been playing a lot with the top area, trying to get the rush distance up to 21 seconds with rock doodads and stuff but it wouldnt work. So what Ive done is move the bridges at all 4 spawns a little bit. So the map is now looking like this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FutSBOg.jpg) This has successfully got the rush time up to 21 seconds between the top nats. For comparison, Circuit Breaker is also 21 seconds on close spawns, and FS is 22 seconds. Moving the bridges has also helped the pathing and even out the other spawns rush times; 21 seconds between the top nats 24 seconds between the bottom nats 24 seconds between the right nats 25 seconds between the left nats On September 27 2016 02:30 FlaShFTW wrote: needs symetry :c Why? The idea is to have a familiar feeling map but then inject a bit of spice. On September 27 2016 06:14 Freakling wrote: Well, the problem with this map idea is that you end up with poor positional balance due to a vary uneven distribution of expansions and unequal rush distances. Picking FS with it's inherent rotational variety and already relatively short rushing distances only aggravates those problems. You'd be much better off doing a through-and through asymmetrical layout that is actually accommodated to what you want to do (i.e. a map with one asymmetrical spawn). Most importantly you really need to space out the topmost two nats more, not only to increase the rushing distance but also to create space for a proper gas expansion at 12 o'clock. Maybe you can make the left side more like CB top/bottom with some mineral onlies. In general I think throwing in some mineral onlies instead of a central gas expansion will give you a lot more adaptability to make the layout work as a whole, Thanks for the tips. The goal is specifically a Fighting Spirit like map. With the reposition of the bridges, the rush times are more evenly matched. As for having a base at the 12 o clock: There is a critical problem if you do that. In a split map scenario when top vs bottom, the top player would have 7 bases while the bottom player would only have 6 bases. Thats why I have done it like this. | ||
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joust85
Canada53 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
There are 8 bridges. Im inviting you guys to directly make your own mark on the map by designing the decoration for the bridges. Save the picture, draw your design in paint or whatever and then upload as jpeg. Let me know which bridge is your first choice (numbered 1-8). I may modify and move bits around to form a cohesive whole. And I reserve the right to choose which make the final cut, but if lots of people submit designs then it will be randomised. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dzoDtAw.png) | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
Cardinal Allied System Cardinal Allies System Centralized Ally System Coordinated Ally System Coordinated Ally Spirit One of those^ | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
On September 29 2016 07:07 -NegativeZero- wrote: kind of asymmetrical but i did the best i could ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uFLEQ21.png) Would you be interested in a game of high stakes matching pairs? On September 30 2016 01:05 3FFA wrote: Okay I think CAS stands for: Cardinal Allied System Cardinal Allies System Centralized Ally System Coordinated Ally System Coordinated Ally Spirit One of those^ Nope | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pdiTNlZ.jpg) | ||
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DOgMeAt
Czech Republic142 Posts
On September 28 2016 07:18 CardinalAllin wrote: As for having a base at the 12 o clock: There is a critical problem if you do that. In a split map scenario when top vs bottom, the top player would have 7 bases while the bottom player would only have 6 bases. Thats why I have done it like this. i m just casually passing by... you asymmetrical design seems really unbalanced in other scenarios, eg 5 vs 11, 5 easily taking both nearby expansions symmetry is the key: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CCjCD5v.jpg) or ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/AclXaqu.jpg) | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
the two rotational symmmetry bases at bottom left and bottom right do not work in a balanced way due to how the thirds are set up. the only way drunken monkey style symmetries like this work is a third designed specifically to the needs of this symmetry style, e.g. three-spawn maps, whereas one possible spawn setup is rotational symmetry, one is axial symmetry close distance (like on 4spawn axial symmetry) and one is axial symmetry long distance (like on 4spawn axial symmetry). Here, too, the design of third bases is crucial, not so much how one expands into them as an expansion after the natural, but how you set them up so that they are balanced as fourth or fifth base. But this is a hell of a work and i am unsure if anyone every publioshed such a map. It is something i experiemented with in sc2:wol and hots, but it is too much work and one can imagine that it just draws too much pitchforking. the advantage is that you have the same spawn setups (close, far, rotational) as on a four player map, but you have more space for bases, because you need one main/nat(/third) setup less, do not ghive away a "free main" and have more interesting ways to construct bases. the problem is that you have to do a 3-spawn map. Also you cut that chances for a bad spawn position significantly. when done right the rotational spawn setup is not even worse for the cw or ccw player. here is an image for everybody who thinks this description is too abstract. usre if anybody ever made such a map. i theorized over this years ago with NullCurrent (ex-TPW) and made some tests that went unpublished. feel free to realize a map based on this symmetry. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o2FyVeX.jpg) | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
Cardinal: Negative's swastika design is not the bridge you are looking for. + Show Spoiler [Try this instead:] + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/snXXMEj.jpg) | ||
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Samro225am
Germany982 Posts
On September 30 2016 19:06 Freakling wrote: @Samro: I don't think that layout holds up in BW, actually, for the simple fact how Zerg expand and nat-nat distances seem very unequal. But then it is overall not just a question of where bases are but also of how the terrain is designed around them, Cardinal: Negative's swastika design is not the bridge you are looking for. + Show Spoiler [Try this instead  +it is not a layout, it is a symmetric principal. while i never did maps for sc:bw I think such a geometric idea can translate to any RTS game. obviously the layout has to be adapted to the specific game design... | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
In general, I agree that a map needs to be constructed around the feature one wants to implement (in this case the feature would be the asymmetry of one of the main-nat-areas in relation to the rest of the map) and not just have the feature arbitrarily superimposed upon some pre-existing layout. But the thought processes are pretty straight forward and not too different to any simple symmetric map. As far as BroodWar-specific symmetry and balance considerations are concerned, 4 player macro maps are very straight forward: one main in each corner with a natural to either side, and a third base in between, roughly at the 3/6/9/12 o'clock positions. as long as the mains remain in the typical corner positions, this layout is pretty much a given and does not actually vary much between axially or rotationally symmetric maps, so the basic principal applies here as well. The problem then basically boils down to equalizing length and width of paths and the number and width of entrances to equivalent bases, which is mostly just a matter of the right layout (i.e. rather not an already strongly rotationally biassed path layout like on FS) and terrain editing. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Im not really sure why you bothered to make pictures explaining what standard rotational and axial symmetry is, but I feel honoured that you did and that this was your 2nd post since 2007! Imbalance, eg 5 vs 11, 5 easily taking both nearby expansions Your example wasnt even the best example of imbalance. Better examples would have been 1 vs 5, 1 vs 7, or 7 vs 11. However, Ive made a big change to the map, Ive added 2 mineral onlies. Samro225am, hello, nice to see you in the bw section. the two rotational symmetry bases at bottom left and bottom right do not work in a balanced way due to how the thirds are set up. Im not sure why you pick on the bottom bases only, just seemed a funny way of wording it to me. However, again though Ive made a big change and added 2 mineral onlies. For those interested in some further reading on the subject, check out And G’s thread (theres a few mistakes but its good overall): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/447881-walrus-symmetry http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/448561-4-crusader And G calls it Walrus symmetry. Samro above calls it Drunken Monkey symmetry. Personally I call it Black Sheep. Kind of hilarious that all 3 are animals. @Freakling: Thanks for the bridge. It reminds me of your 3 player map Urban Warfare Tactics, which btw seems to not be in the database anymore. Did you delete it? Your bridge also reminds me of a jumping headcrab which is less desirable. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/half-life/images/4/49/Headcrab_underbelly.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100116143159&path-prefix=en) 7th October 2016 Version 0p1wip043 -Added 2 mineral onlies -Placed resources at the high ground 3rds and centre base -Terrain at 3 and 6 o clock -Added rock and tree doodads in centre ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6wZ2n3t.jpg) | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
I like the look of the map, I love crazier maps. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On October 08 2016 07:23 B-royal wrote: In my opinion the only problem with asymmetrical maps is that it often limits strategies instead of expanding them. I like the look of the map, I love crazier maps. Its not that crazy though. Its basically fighting spirit except for the asymmetry. And the 2 bridges and less unbuildable terrain. By the way: Dont you want to push that northern mineral only all the way up to the edge of the map? Looks like wasted space to me and it would make that base more relevant in top-left vs top-right. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6559 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
On October 08 2016 07:23 B-royal wrote: In my opinion the only problem with asymmetrical maps is that it often limits strategies instead of expanding them. I like the look of the map, I love crazier maps. Glad you like the look of the map. Are you worried that you might feel strategically restricted when playing this map? On October 08 2016 07:28 RoomOfMush wrote: Dont you want to push that northern mineral only all the way up to the edge of the map? Looks like wasted space to me and it would make that base more relevant in top-left vs top-right. At the moment, Im happy with the position of the 12 o clock min only, but its something that might change. What do you mean by more relevant? On October 08 2016 08:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: hard to tell tbh,is not the final product so i guess talking about analitical information makes no sense for me,but this map is the mix of Nostalgia and FS except that the third expansion might be a problem for protoss players in a pvz and most likely to be very good for TvP,and yeah i dont think this is the way to go by copying FS style,why will we play this map having FS ?im more for having original maps forcing new sceneries rather than playing a copy paste map from the past.oh except Katrina,i think katrina is a terrible mess. This is the best time to analyse and make suggestions. We are at the tipping point of preferably locking down the layout before all the polish begins. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On October 08 2016 21:51 CardinalAllin wrote: At the moment, Im happy with the position of the 12 o clock min only, but its something that might change. What do you mean by more relevant? As I see it right now the 12 can not be taken by either player when playing top-left vs top-right. The base is so open and in the direct attack path that all attacks will happen there. No defenders advantage, no nothing. There is only 3 possibilities: 1) The game is even => no player should be able to secure the base in an even fight without defenders advantage 2) The game is in favor of the attacking player => the base is a sure loss, no reason to even try to take it when you are behind 3) The game is in favor of the defending player => if the defender holds the game is pretty much over. If he is able to defend this base he will be able to crush the opponent ezpz. So what is the point of that base in top-left vs top-right? I dont see it ever being used unless the game is already over. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ezCkLpA.gif) @RoomOfMush Thanks for explaining what you meant, appreciate it. @Freakling, when I use the search with 3 player and Author: Freakling it didn’t come up, and because the title uses lots of umlauts its not easy to find. Headcrabs from the FPS game halflife, it jumps at you with its legs spread, and the bridge you made looks like it has 2 on it to me lol. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZjVAZtR.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RzuszbA.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/R4O0DAh.gif) But you guys havent solved the riddle of the map name yet! The original clue was: Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat Your new clue is: Last of the First And First of the Last | ||
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SaTiN
United States54 Posts
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Piste
6175 Posts
Is there a download link for this? Also Ive forgotten the reason why snow maps are so rare, can anyone remind me? I think snow is the most beatiful tile: | ||
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
@Piste, http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=4683 They cause snowblindness (very bright/high contrast colours, strains the eyes). @puppykiller Thankyou. My modem broke so I wasnt able to show you guys the progress of the map as much as Id planned (in the later stages), though it did mean I got the map finished a lot faster probably This thread was partly made to show/explain what goes into making a map for those that might be interested. So I will be posting the changelog of whats happened since you last saw the map (that was 043 and now its on 066). With this map, I have tried something new with regards to interaction with you guys. I made it as public as possible from the start so that you could make suggestions etc. I let you design the bridges so that you could make your mark on the map. And for release, I want to also try something new. Would a caster/streamer be interested in getting 'exclusive early access' to the map? You could then make a little video where you explore the map or maybe 2 players could play some games in private, then give the best replays to the caster. Or perhaps a best of five. BisuDagger, Cats_Paw (iloveav), LMaster, Greth etc etc you guys know who you are. Those are probably the most active at the moment, Sayle and FlashFTW are in the mix too etc. Or it could be a player streamer not caster. Any players out there interested in being the first to play on the map and then give the replays to a caster? Please upload to youtube, not just twitch as it is often too laggy for me. Post or PM | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
On November 19 2016 15:44 Piste wrote: Nice to see new maps being made Is there a download link for this? Also Ive forgotten the reason why snow maps are so rare, can anyone remind me? I think snow is the most beatiful tile: http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=4683 supposedly snow maps are more rare because it hurt progamers' eyes to look at bright white screens for long periods of time every day also: Last of the First And First of the Last something about teamliquid? | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
You are thinking in the right way, but no its not about teamliquid or 'T' and 'L'. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
I already got a head, by the way. It's where I don't wear my hat on. Also, something with Jesus (according to Matthew, at least, or so google suggests)... | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Nope its not about Jesus or Matthew. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
Remember, the original clue was: Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat Your new clue is: Last of the First And First of the Last If you look at just the new clue on its own, you should be able to guess what the middle word is in C.A.S. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
All the mineral patches are 1200 minerals not 1500. All the gas geysers are 4000 gas not 5000. (except the centre base) Brand new inverted ramps made from scratch. There is an annoying tile that has a single green pixel on it. I combed over the map at 400% zoom in an attempt to find and remove them all. Each main has a rock pillar in it that you can hide a unit behind (more consistent than on FS). Overlord spots, walling the nats, pylon walling the 3rds, Bigger, wider mid areas for large fights and flanks. And yet there are still 2 new mineral only bases, changing the dynamics. There were 3 guidelines I was following whilst actually making the map: Be consistent, be generous, and encourage player interaction. 'Be consistent' might seem strange considering the map is using the unusual 'Black Sheep' symmetry. But the idea is that things work the same way regardless of spawn. For example, every bridge works in the same way when it comes to walling. There isnt an advantage given to the player on the defensive side in this case. It makes the map intuitive. It also obviously improves balance. For example overlord spots here on CAS are bigger, safer, and more consistent. Basically you can scout more and safely. Marines cant snipe an overlord like they can on FS when they stim and run into that obnoxious little triangle just outside the nats (worse at some spawns than others). For being generous, the idea is that rather than making it so there is 1 perfect way of doing something that you have to learn off by heart, instead try to make it so the player can choose how ne wants to do something, and that it will most likely work as desired. For example walling at the nats has tons of options. And as you can see in the gif above, you can easily place factories/gateways in the bottom left main here which you cant on FS. So you can solve problems in the way you want to rather than what is prescribed. Again the overlord spots are bigger here on CAS, so you dont have to get your overlord into just the right perfect spot to be safe. And lastly for encourage player interaction, well a good example of that is the pylon walling at the 3rds. I'll probably post some pictures of that later on. Q: But Card, if its meant to be generous, why are the resource counts lower? A: Noone likes a smartass. But seriously, I think the lower resources will make things more interesting. Q: But Card, if its meant to encourage player interaction, why isnt sniping overlords with marines good? A: Well you can snipe an overlord, but only if the zerg player overextends in a clear mistake, not because zerg was desperately trying to scout at a very important time. The point was that its more consistent here and less on a knife edge, therefore balanced and feels fair and satisfying to the players (on both sides). | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
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KatjaKean
Hungary59 Posts
On November 20 2016 10:31 -NegativeZero- wrote: crown and scepter Nice! That has to be the solution. I didn't realize the second clue actually referred to the first one, I was looking at them on their own. Would be nice to hype this map up, and get it played on ICCup ladder some time, maybe as MOTW - it would reach the most people that way. Unless it turns out to be broken in some way, of course.  But to my D+ eye, it looks good. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
 I see your image, and I raise you a gif. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9giEtlV.gif) Pic ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/N3ALSnn.jpg) Going back to the pylon walling at the 3rds and player interaction, here you can see that every ramp can be walled with 2 pylons placed diagonally. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/qXYjslH.jpg) The interesting thing is that if you only use 2 pylons, a vulture can mine hop through. So the player interaction is that protoss can decide to take the 3rd earlier, with less money and make only 2 pylons but if the terran sees this, he has the chance to punish. Its not just a simple case of 'oh its blocked, go home'. You can also wall the min onlies with 4 pylons, for example: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/pcOXxmQ.jpg) Check out the cool water cliff editing and nice big overlord spots and stuff. -NegativeZero- Im curious how did you work it out? As in what order did things come to you? | ||
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SaTiN
United States54 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
But time will tell if the map is considered balanced or not. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Cryoc will face LRM)INF3cted in a short series and it will be casted by FlashFTW. | ||
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bITt.mAN
Switzerland3693 Posts
Fun idea: fiddle with the bridges so that they spell out something in Korean :D | ||
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-NegativeZero-
United States2141 Posts
On November 20 2016 23:28 CardinalAllin wrote: -NegativeZero- Im curious how did you work it out? As in what order did things come to you? 1. the middle word being "and" meant the 1st and 3rd words were both nouns 2. "Royal. Are you Royalty? I wonder if you are a head of state." -> both words have to do with kings 3. hat, wand -> crown, scepter | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
@-NegativeZero- Nicely done, I hope you all enjoyed the game. Quick update, BisuDagger is also going to be casting with FlashFTW in a dual cast, so you have that to look forward to. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On November 23 2016 14:38 -NegativeZero- wrote: 1. the middle word being "and" meant the 1st and 3rd words were both nouns 2. "Royal. Are you Royalty? I wonder if you are a head of state." -> both words have to do with kings 3. hat, wand -> crown, scepter What about first of the last and last of the first? Also just because the middle word is and doesn't mean the other words have to be nouns? You know like "big and beautiful" :D Also, CardinAllin, why call your map Crown and Scepter, what's the connection? | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10149 Posts
stream is up for the showmatches. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10149 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [DONT READ UNTIL YOUVE SEEN MAP] + Here's the game commentary. and some thoughts for map COMPARED TO FIGHTING SPIRIT (not an overall matchup balance noted) ZvT: Zerg favored. The extra ramp helps Zerg with surrounds on the Terran when they move out and helps with backstabs. Definite plus there. Otherwise no real changes to the map from FS but this definitely helps Zerg slightly. TvP: We feel like we need to test some of this out, but we think that the turtle player is behind in this matchup because of the low resources. So Terran here is the turtle player and will most likely run dry very quickly in TvP matchups. The extra ramp doesn't impact too much, just stick another dragoon on the inside ramp. PvZ: Zerg is definitely hindered in playstyle here since you can't really go for the closer 3rd base without zealots absolutely destroying you (or you can put up like 10 sunkens and lose all your economy). So a linear playstyle from Zerg, forced to play 4 base turtle which I dislike. Protoss on the other hand will have difficulty securing their own third because of the difficult turtle style and the extra ramp that helps Zerg's with surrounds and attacks. Overall, if the Zerg likes turtle 4 base style, Zerg favored. If the Zerg is more 3 base aggro, it's a bit trickier for them. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
@B-royal Heres how the clues linked: Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat Last of the First And First of the Last Basically the last word of the first line, and the first word of the last line. As for the map name, well mostly I just think it sounds good and makes a good acronym. Obviously its the map to rule over all other maps. Its 'fit for a king' as the saying goes, and ofcourse you are all kings and queens to me. @BisuDagger, sent you a PM. Also I hope your mom has got a big bush now. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19230 Posts
On November 27 2016 07:56 CardinalAllin wrote: @Freakling yep when the vod of the showmatch is ready, Im going to make the new thread for the finished map. Thats when the map files will go live. @B-royal Heres how the clues linked: Get a head, get a hat Wand in hand, on thrones they sat D Last of the First And First of the Last Basically the last word of the first line, and the first word of the last line. As for the map name, well mostly I just think it sounds good and makes a good acronym. Obviously its the map to rule over all other maps. Its 'fit for a king' as the saying goes, and ofcourse you are all kings and queens to me. @BisuDagger, sent you a PM. Also I hope your mom has got a big bush now. That bush comment could be taken out of context lolol. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + The extra bridge and the fact that they are thinner will affect things though. Play testing is in order. In ZvP, zerg can take the close base as his 3rd if he wishes in my opinion just fine. And I also think Protoss can take his 3rd base in PvZ just fine. Infected was saying that he thinks zealots might be able to attack the close high ground 3rd base of zerg more easily than on FS by using the 2nd bridge. I dont think there is a problem here. I believe the zerg close 3rd base style is completely viable and effective on CAS. Also, what is wrong with the main mineral formation? They are awesomely shaped! One of the great things about them is that you can build a spire behind it and the spire will be very protected from lings. It makes ZvZ much more stable. The map will be changed so you cant build a townhall behind the minerals at 12 o clock. @BisuDagger I will not be held accountable for the dark places your mind frequents. My comment was surely innocent of suggestion. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10149 Posts
On November 27 2016 08:44 CardinalAllin wrote: @FlashFTW, in PvT Cryoc was talking about how you can put a dragoon on the ramp that leads into the 3rd to block vults. You are mixing up ramps and bridges. Ofcourse rather than blocking the ramp into the 3rd with a goon, Protoss can instead pylon wall it very easily. See this pic: + Show Spoiler + The extra bridge and the fact that they are thinner will affect things though. Play testing is in order. In ZvP, zerg can take the close base as his 3rd if he wishes in my opinion just fine. And I also think Protoss can take his 3rd base in PvZ just fine. Infected was saying that he thinks zealots might be able to attack the close high ground 3rd base of zerg more easily than on FS by using the 2nd bridge. I dont think there is a problem here. I believe the zerg close 3rd base style is completely viable and effective on CAS. Also, what is wrong with the main mineral formation? They are awesomely shaped! One of the great things about them is that you can build a spire behind it and the spire will be very protected from lings. It makes ZvZ much more stable. The map will be changed so you cant build a townhall behind the minerals at 12 o clock. @BisuDagger I will not be held accountable for the dark places your mind frequents. My comment was surely innocent of suggestion. Interpretation abuse was unintended. The pylon ramp towards the inside isn't preferable since if terran drops there or goes for an attack, you can't hold the top with goons unless you're going to block some of your army inside your own 3rd base. that's why its not preferable. Zerg's 3rd base at the high ground side bases is VERY difficult to hold. On maps like fighting spirit, zerg tries to hold a one way choke with their third by being able to protect the one bridge and then the ramp leading to the middle of the map. with this extra bridge set up, zerg no long has that option to protect their 3rd via the natural choke. That's why it's a lot harder. They aren't optimized is what Cryoc was complaining about, he didn't like how flat they were and it messed up pathing and actually made him have less minerals than on FS. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
On ZvP, yes I fully understand the concept in your argument. Still I think zerg taking a close 3rd is a completely viable and effective strategy here. The strength of your conviction makes me think I wont be able to persuade you otherwise (with words). So Im not going to try right now. Again, play testing is the next step. I have resource debugged twice so far during development with all races at all bases. However Ive changed other things since and this can affect mining. If something is really bad then I will fix it. Im going to be relying on you guys to tell me problems you have with the map. No matter how small if there is something you think maybe could be better post or PM me. Resource mining is something I would like to be as good as can be. I really like the shape of the mineral formations as things stand but if something is mining really badly then it will be changed. Again, I encourage you to let me know about these things, so thanks. For the long answer about mineral formations (might interest some people I dunno): + Show Spoiler + Ah the mineral formation. Many people are under the impression that FS has a magic shape that is 'the best'. Im afraid it doesnt work like that. I cant be sure if you are one of those or not though but incase you are Ill talk about it a little. A shape isnt inherently optimised and cant just be copied from one map to another. Lets quickly look at La Mancha + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/7/70/La_Mancha.jpg) Rose changed away from his already perfect mineral shape to something different here on his own more modern map. Notice too that the shape is remarkably similar to CAS, particularly the 2 mains on the left hand side! Eddy + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/commons/images/7/7f/%284%29Eddy_Overview.jpg) You can see here in Freaklings map every main has a different shape formation, but be sure they are optimised. During development so far I have twice done resource debugging at all bases for all races and they were mining well. However, I decided to make further edits to the map in other areas and this can negatively affect things. However, resources are the final thing that is done to polish a map as they can be temperamental. You have to start playtesting a map to catch wider gameplay issues and then go back and try to do resources at the very end. Consider though that technically if a map were to have slower mining (or faster) than what you are used to and for all races at all the bases equally, then there isnt a balance problem necessarily. omg I have less minerals than I would have on FS, but if the other player does too, well perhaps its not so bad. In general, playing on CAS things are going to feel a little different to what you are used to, but thats a good thing. Remember the mineral patches are 1200 not 1500 anyway. But look I was just talking 'technically' about a hypothetical map. For CAS I would prefer that mining rates were similar to FS and are quite fast, and that you can do familiar build orders in the way you are used to. So yeah, keep being vocal and nag me if you have a niggle! | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On November 27 2016 12:40 CardinalAllin wrote: Some players pylon wall to make it tight, some players pylon wall to make it a thinner gap (often leaving a 1 tile gap if they are able to on the map). For example Horang2 would often wall tight and trap 1 goon inside, while Dear for example would often use 2 pylons to slim the choke down to a 1 tile gap. Players can choose to do what they prefer on CAS. The point I was making is that the pylon walling options on this map only help make it easier. You can combine putting a goon on the ramp with a pylon wall that retains a 1 tile gap if thats what you want to do. If vultures plant mines infront of the goon and you cant focus the mines down, you could retreat the goon up the ramp and fall back to the 1 tile gap choke in the pylon wall that you made. The point Flash was trying to make is that it is actually not advisable to wall both chokes completely shut. You want the "inner" choke (the one facing your nat, to be permeable to your own units to be able to reinforce and defend the expansion against attacks and drops. The best setup for mid game would probably be two pylons and a cannon for the outer ramp and a goon blocking the inner one. They aren't optimized is what Cryoc was complaining about, he didn't like how flat they were and it messed up pathing and actually made him have less minerals than on FS. That's not the fault of the shape of the formation, though, just the randomness of our beloved BW pathfinding... Or put another way: even if the exact formation from Fighting Spirit had been put there, it would still be messed up.There's need for optimization, though. That much is right. | ||
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
On November 27 2016 12:40 CardinalAllin wrote: Some players pylon wall to make it tight, some players pylon wall to make it a thinner gap (often leaving a 1 tile gap if they are able to on the map). For example Horang2 would often wall tight and trap 1 goon inside, while Dear for example would often use 2 pylons to slim the choke down to a 1 tile gap. Players can choose to do what they prefer on CAS. The point I was making is that the pylon walling options on this map only help make it easier. You can combine putting a goon on the ramp with a pylon wall that retains a 1 tile gap if thats what you want to do. If vultures plant mines infront of the goon and you cant focus the mines down, you could retreat the goon up the ramp and fall back to the 1 tile gap choke in the pylon wall that you made. On ZvP, yes I fully understand the concept in your argument. Still I think zerg taking a close 3rd is a completely viable and effective strategy here. The strength of your conviction makes me think I wont be able to persuade you otherwise (with words). So Im not going to try right now. Again, play testing is the next step. I have resource debugged twice so far during development with all races at all bases. However Ive changed other things since and this can affect mining. If something is really bad then I will fix it. Im going to be relying on you guys to tell me problems you have with the map. No matter how small if there is something you think maybe could be better post or PM me. Resource mining is something I would like to be as good as can be. I really like the shape of the mineral formations as things stand but if something is mining really badly then it will be changed. Again, I encourage you to let me know about these things, so thanks. For the long answer about mineral formations (might interest some people I dunno): + Show Spoiler + Ah the mineral formation. Many people are under the impression that FS has a magic shape that is 'the best'. Im afraid it doesnt work like that. I cant be sure if you are one of those or not though but incase you are Ill talk about it a little. A shape isnt inherently optimised and cant just be copied from one map to another. Lets quickly look at La Mancha + Show Spoiler + Rose changed away from his already perfect mineral shape to something different here on his own more modern map. Notice too that the shape is remarkably similar to CAS, particularly the 2 mains on the left hand side! Eddy + Show Spoiler + You can see here in Freaklings map every main has a different shape formation, but be sure they are optimised. During development so far I have twice done resource debugging at all bases for all races and they were mining well. However, I decided to make further edits to the map in other areas and this can negatively affect things. However, resources are the final thing that is done to polish a map as they can be temperamental. You have to start playtesting a map to catch wider gameplay issues and then go back and try to do resources at the very end. Consider though that technically if a map were to have slower mining (or faster) than what you are used to and for all races at all the bases equally, then there isnt a balance problem necessarily. omg I have less minerals than I would have on FS, but if the other player does too, well perhaps its not so bad. In general, playing on CAS things are going to feel a little different to what you are used to, but thats a good thing. Remember the mineral patches are 1200 not 1500 anyway. But look I was just talking 'technically' about a hypothetical map. For CAS I would prefer that mining rates were similar to FS and are quite fast, and that you can do familiar build orders in the way you are used to. So yeah, keep being vocal and nag me if you have a niggle! Just watch the first game with me being top right, the SCVs for the top two patches take a really long path to return the minerals and there is no way to fix it with a depot without blocking the gas. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
Both Freakling and FlashFTW are using phrases like 'it isnt preferable', 'not advisable' 'you want [to do it this way]'. I pointed out that actually you are wrong, because some players (and I gave the example of Horang2) will choose to quite often wall both entrances tightly. Sometimes players will trap a single goon inside and sometimes they choose not to. So it is preferable for them to have that option available. The map accomodates both tactics. The best setup for mid game would probably be two pylons and a cannon for the outer ramp and a goon blocking the inner one. If that is what you wanted to do as a player you can easily do that ofcourse. (the timing of when/if to get a cannon is very personal. Many players wont get cannons until later, many wont get them at all etc etc). I said in my last post, if you are a player that likes to block the inner ramp with a goon, you can combine that with a pylon wall above that has a 1 tile gap. This way you can fall back to it if vultures plant mines next to the goon. It provides a second choke to retreat to and this allows you to repel the vults much easier. Its a common basic tactic used by many pros. Dont need to talk about this anymore. @Cryoc, in version 0.9 everything was working. Like I say I made some edits to the map and this can create new mining bugs. Ill do some more mining tests today using a stopwatch. We want atleast the mains and nats to be good from the start, and as the map approaches final version of 1.0 and any other problems have been ironed out, thats when its crunch time to do final polish on resource debugging if its still needed (Im talking about the lategame bases here, mains and nats will be under higher scrutiny the whole time). | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On November 27 2016 20:27 CardinalAllin wrote:Dont need to talk about this anymore. Oh, come on. Discussing the merits and drawbacks of different strategies is never wrong. Not all players may even know about all the possible quirks you can implement... | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
@Freakling its just we are having a really long conversation about something that none of us think is a problem in the first place. FlashFTW said "The extra ramp [he meant bridge] doesn't impact too much, just stick another dragoon on the inside ramp. " Paraphrasing I said 'yep and you can also do these other things if thats your style'. Then you guys said no thats a bad idea. I respond some pros like to do it so having the option available is just a nice detail to point out. So yeah hopefully Ive cleared that up. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
http://www.panschk.de/mappage/comments.php?mapid=4873 ![[image loading]](http://www.panschk.de/mappage/pics/4873.jpg) These ramps come with a 1 yeer Card guarantee (expires after 28 days. May not be used in conjunction with any other tee (except herbal). It is non transferable (unless you own 2 mugs). | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
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Jukado
805 Posts
The first showmatch has been played between Cryoc and LRM)INF3cted. The youtube vod is ready, casted by FlashFTW and will be posted with the map. Also tomorrow, a second showmatch is going to be played! DarkNetHunter will face fearthequeen. This best of 3 is going to be casted by BisuDagger on the same day. Massive thankyou to you guys. I want to show something quickly in an attempt to demonstrate how much effort has been put into this map. An example of a couple of tiles that have a single green pixel on them. These tiles have been removed from the map. And a grass tile that occurs in the editor which is a tiny bit ugly so I changed them. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VnQFEqR.png) And the map still isnt finished. I will continue to look out for things and listen to your feedback. Playtesting will surely reveal some things. I hope you guys are excited to play the map this winter. | ||
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Jukado
805 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Wip044 altered natural at bottom right (moved mineral patch and made more buildable space for turrets). Wip045 working on repeating cliff patterns etc. (Naturalising the terrain) Also played with bottom left nat entrance and main ramp. Wip046, tidied cliff edge in bottom left main, and continued naturalising terrain. Buildable space at top right main. Wip047, all high templar holes. Entrance to nats. Wip048, building markers at nats and main walls. unbuildable PathTo3rd creep spread. Wip049, highland grass in mains. Wip050, highland grass @ 3rds. Wip051, pylon walling @ 3rds. Wip052, repeating patterns grass in mid. High ground doodads (mains and 3rds). Nat doodads. Wip053, PathTo3rd doodads. Pylon walling at min onlies. Wip054, middle doodads. Wip055, changed resources to 1200 minerals and 4000 gas at all bases (except centre base which is half). Randomised minerals then manually improved. Wip056, start locations and menu and triggers. Wip057, worked on all ramps. Wip058, bridges (deco and walling). Buildable tiles tidy up. Buildable tile at bottom right nat for sunken. Larvae spawn at bottom right nat (tested and its ok) (they spawn outside the wall but safely). Wip059, tight cliffs at nats (allows for alternative walling options). Various tiles tidied up. Unwalkable tiles around bottom right ramp. Changed inverted ramps slightly (more unwalkable). Changed a few small doodads, changed a few clutter, deleted a common skeleton so the map has none of them (2 skeletons are common in other maps, this map avoids using both). The map also has no windmill propeller doodads by the way. Wip060, water cliff at 3 o clock, 9 o clock, and at all 4 nats. Changed unwalkable tiles at nat entrances. Inverted ramps 1 tile changed, and a few various tiles tidied up. Rock doodad at 6 o clock low ground. Moved mineral patch at 3 o clock. Wip061, After testing all bases with all races, I begin making the needed changes. Moved mineral 7 at TR nat. Moved gas at BR nat. Moved gas at BL nat. Moved mineral 3 at TR 3rd. All these changes have been tested and are good. Wip062, improved overlord spots at nats and other water areas. Tank hole @ 8 o clock ramp. Wip063, changed cliff edge in TL main (and tested) (also changed BR main cliff edge too). Green dot tiles in all mains, and high ground 3rds. Grass splodges, Mud splodges, Asphalt splodges. Wip064, extra flowers in the mains and nats and 3rds. Wip065, unwalkable tile at BL 3rd lower ramp. Cliff tiles at TL 3rd lower ramp. Extra flowers in the mid. Edited water cliff temple door. Repeating water patterns. Wip066, more green dots in mains. Found a ramp bug on the inverted ramps (units getting stuck on ramps that point right (eg BL main and BL 3rd). Made new inverted ramps and added them. (Ive tested the new ramps and they work). Changed some flowers in the nats. Version0p9, added title and trigger message. Version0p91 unwalkable tiles at Bottom nats (scv holes after building, 3 tiles @BL and 1 @BR), a few cliff tile changes at the nats. Water cliff between 6 o clock and BL nat changed. A few high templar holes changed. Bigger overlord spots between the mains and the 3rds (involved moving the rock pillar in BR main), and also a bigger overlord spot between 8 o clock and 10 o clock. Version0p92 cant build townhall behind 12 o clock minerals. Fixed main mineral formation in top right main (had to move start location down 1 tile) (Mineral 1 and 2 were slow, counting from the top down). This new start location is better in some ways due to the shape of the main (defense from reavers etc as this main was the most vulnerable to them), and the position of the nat (top right nat is lower than top left nat). Made start locations a bit prettier and mains in general (flower tweaks) (also the building markers at BR main changed to be inline with the flowers even more so). A few more flower changes (BL nat, all high ground 3rds) and grass at the centre base tweaked. Straight line grass tile bug (went over whole map and fixed the ones that I saw). Resource mining tests. High ground dirt ‘natural’ 2 tile doodad, the right hand tile has a green pixel on it, and Ive replaced them all. Version0p93 water cliff editing at bottom right nat and other high dirt to water horizontal lines. Version0p94 changed a couple of flowers in BL main. Rock doodad at BL nat entrance to changed to water. Rock doodad at TL nat clutter. Tile on ramp to 3 o clock. Water cliff editing at top nats. Map goes live in a few hours. There you will get your first showmatch vod. Edit: Here is the release thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/516840-map-4crown-and-sceptre-1v1 | ||
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