On May 14 2016 22:12 King_of_Blades wrote: Awesome news! Just a quick question though, I can see that you're advertising a lot of new window-mode options, however, since launchers like mc64 already offer wide range of fullscreen resolutions, why not implement regular HD fullscreen? Atm, they are considered "hacks" since you can have better overview, however, if you implement them as a norm, I believe that would work perfect. Window-mode is part of that era you're trying to replace and tbh, it should just die already :>
...think harder, you 'd have to position the cursor over much smaller area to "aim" .
Not even FlaSh used to aim his EMP too good, over the streched 640x480, and we used to have 17" CRT back in the day.
"Overview" is not necessarily better thing if you have to position & aim, & you only have a single chance in a miniscule fraction of a second. I'd think the pro-players have accurate "mental image" of the battlefield anyway.
On May 15 2016 01:52 B-royal wrote: I don't want anyone to have a larger view while in game, that's obviously cheating and changing the game.
These features have their place when observing, but not when playing.
What would you call this by the way? Is a resolution change always concomitant with a bigger overview? Or is it because we don't change the sprites that this would be a necessary consequence? In other words, if we were to update sprites and thus create more pixels we could have a higher resolution without having a bigger view in game?
I think one major problem would be that you could not just use bigger/higher resolution sprites. It's not just bitmaps stretched out over a more or less arbitrary area as in your typical 3D game but the game actually uses pixels as a native unit for measuring unit positions. So you'd probably at least need a completely new rendering engine to make it work. It would also be interesting to get an estimate on how long it would actually take to remake some ten thousand sprites from scratch.
The sprites were actually made in a 3D program, so if the original models still exist they could be re-rendered in a higher resolution.
... for static rescaling , high quality GPU scalers like no-ring Lanczos are very convincing already. It looks excellent with BW, don't worry http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=145358 So convicing actually, I think low res sprites are not as much of a problem than a novel, challanging form of motion interpolation. Who's up to it ? PM me maybe I'll give you some ideas.
Well yeah, prob. 24fps sprite is bigger problem than low-res sprite...
On May 13 2016 09:36 9heart wrote: isnt playing at resolutions other than 640x480 considered an unfair advantage/hacks and generally frowned upon? i know for a fact its not allowed in fishladder or iccup tournaments
Our windowed mode does scaling, it doesn't change how much of the map is visible. It's akin to W-Mode's 2x mode, but unlike that, we can scale to any resolution and do it fully GPU-accelerated (which both makes it much more performant *and* allows for doing a higher quality scale).
On May 14 2016 22:12 King_of_Blades wrote: Awesome news! Just a quick question though, I can see that you're advertising a lot of new window-mode options, however, since launchers like mc64 already offer wide range of fullscreen resolutions, why not implement regular HD fullscreen? Atm, they are considered "hacks" since you can have better overview, however, if you implement them as a norm, I believe that would work perfect. Window-mode is part of that era you're trying to replace and tbh, it should just die already :>
It's a disappointing, self-imposed limitation. Sad, we're clinging to a bygone era's limitations as if it's integral to the beauty of Brood War. It's not. The beauty lies in its game design, which is eternal and would only be enhanced by modern interface standards.
the real concern is probably balance, if one player has a higher resolution monitor they can see more of the map at a time and will have an advantage
On the contrary, many modern games allow all sorts of resolutions, and yet nobody complains that those who cannot afford 1080p displays are unfairly disadvantaged. In any of them.
Precedent is no good excuse. And... for some reason, I doubt the honest existence of such so-called 'purists.' I think there'd be considerable demand, among everyone, for these changes. I highly doubt your hypotheticals.
they only ones asking for these changes are new players/casuals, like you. unlike you i follow the scene closely and i know by instinct and heart that the hardcore fanatic koreans who love this game to bits will certainly not appreciate such changes.
someone who never follow the scene or even play the game anyway have no right to tell me what hypothetical and whats not. koreans have many bad impressions of foerigners in the past, when they see such 'cheaty" features in this server what do you think they will say??
if you like your GRAPHICS so much, you know theres a pretty rts game called sc2 out there right?
New player? Causal? Never followed the scene? Ha! How little you know of me. Regardless, such insults do not an argument make. You appeal to an instinct and emotionalism, but all we have here is to disagree. I assert that many of them would welcome such changes. Again, when all players have the opportunity for such a feature, it is categorically not a cheat. SC2 has inferior gameplay, why would I play it?
On May 15 2016 02:30 Piste wrote: At first glance this seemed great, something that could gather koreans, foreigners and newcomers all together in pne place. But yeah custom hotkeys and resolution hacks is something that won't attract the current player pool, there's a reason why they're frowned upon at the current ladders.
I disagree--and, I'll insist that the use of 'hacks' is improper. If it is an out-of-the-box feature of this particular ladder system, it is de facto not a hack or cheat or whatever. Semantics (what people mean by words, what words mean, etc.) are important, and I won't have people disparaging something by labeling it dishonestly.
they only ones asking for these changes are new players/casuals, like you. unlike you i follow the scene closely and i know by instinct and heart that the hardcore fanatic koreans who love this game to bits will certainly not appreciate such changes.
someone who never follow the scene or even play the game anyway have no right to tell me what hypothetical and whats not. koreans have many bad impressions of foerigners in the past, when they see such 'cheaty" features in this server what do you think they will say??
if you like your GRAPHICS so much, you know theres a pretty rts game called sc2 out there right?
I honestly prefer broodwar graphics, cause it gives me the dark and gritty atmosphere, which feels more "starcraft".
I agree. But, I'd like to stress that upping the allowable overview / resolution would not make it any less dark or gritty.
There seems to be a good degree of misunderstanding about my / other's objections, and confusing it with what this cool modification / server is doing, and I'm not sure where it's arising from. If I were paranoid, I'd suggest a disinformation campaign complete with paid shills, but I know there's... not really a financial incentive for that. Edit: OR IS THERE?!??? I'M ON TO YOU, BLIZZARD.
On May 15 2016 01:52 B-royal wrote: I don't want anyone to have a larger view while in game, that's obviously cheating and changing the game.
These features have their place when observing, but not when playing.
What would you call this by the way? Is a resolution change always concomitant with a bigger overview? Or is it because we don't change the sprites that this would be a necessary consequence? In other words, if we were to update sprites and thus create more pixels we could have a higher resolution without having a bigger view in game?
I think one major problem would be that you could not just use bigger/higher resolution sprites. It's not just bitmaps stretched out over a more or less arbitrary area as in your typical 3D game but the game actually uses pixels as a native unit for measuring unit positions. So you'd probably at least need a completely new rendering engine to make it work. It would also be interesting to get an estimate on how long it would actually take to remake some ten thousand sprites from scratch.
The sprites were actually made in a 3D program, so if the original models still exist they could be re-rendered in a higher resolution.
On May 15 2016 01:52 B-royal wrote: I don't want anyone to have a larger view while in game, that's obviously cheating and changing the game.
These features have their place when observing, but not when playing.
What would you call this by the way? Is a resolution change always concomitant with a bigger overview? Or is it because we don't change the sprites that this would be a necessary consequence? In other words, if we were to update sprites and thus create more pixels we could have a higher resolution without having a bigger view in game?
I think one major problem would be that you could not just use bigger/higher resolution sprites. It's not just bitmaps stretched out over a more or less arbitrary area as in your typical 3D game but the game actually uses pixels as a native unit for measuring unit positions. So you'd probably at least need a completely new rendering engine to make it work. It would also be interesting to get an estimate on how long it would actually take to remake some ten thousand sprites from scratch.
The sprites were actually made in a 3D program, so if the original models still exist they could be re-rendered in a higher resolution.
if
... if someone 's really serious , use the highest quality CPU "no-ring" upscaler first and use the original 24fps sprite as keyframe and redraw it by hand (and minimal automated tool ) to 120fps . I suppose the engine can still run at 24. Plus you can still play with some (Awesome) quick & dirty stuff later too , with supposedly better result because of the hands-on effort
Whatever you do just use no-ring scalers, and do something about the motion interpolation artifacts, maybe use wildly different motion interpolation vector stuff for different sprites (eg. units vs. projectiles vs. explosions....)
On May 15 2016 02:30 Piste wrote: At first glance this seemed great, something that could gather koreans, foreigners and newcomers all together in pne place. But yeah custom hotkeys and resolution hacks is something that won't attract the current player pool, there's a reason why they're frowned upon at the current ladders.
Excellent thing that they're not putting in custom hotkeys or resolution hacks, then, right? They're just doing resolution scaling, which doesn't introduce more visuals to one player over another.
Oh yeah then it is awesome I misunderstood something.
On May 15 2016 11:11 FinalGame wrote: Sitting here feeling like a little kid, refreshing every few hours or so. Wishing the best of luck and success to this project!
On May 15 2016 01:33 BLinD-RawR wrote: The problem with doing a proper HD scaling is that the sprites would have to be messed around with, and that's going to be a big no-no from blizz
Given what they're doing already I think that step is nothing, unless Blizzard arbitrarily decides "okay, now you're crossing the arbitrary line." Either way, I doubt the problem you present. There are... resolution expander hacks for BW out there already that don't mess with the sprites, at least to my knowledge.
the game has been played competitively in the current way for >15 years, there are purists that want to play the game as it is.
if you introduce things like hotkey changers and scaled HD resolution, nobody hardcore about the game (especially koreans where they form the vast majority of current BW playerbase) will treat this server seriously. you think the current korean pros who have trained immensely under the default setup will like it when they see newbies playing with changed hotkeys and expanded res? they will laugh it off as a joke server for casuals
Precedent is no good excuse. And... for some reason, I doubt the honest existence of such so-called 'purists.' I think there'd be considerable demand, among everyone, for these changes. Your hypotheticals seem contrived imo.
On May 15 2016 01:52 B-royal wrote: I don't want anyone to have a larger view while in game, that's obviously cheating and changing the game.
These features have their place when observing, but not when playing.
What would you call this by the way? Is a resolution change always concomitant with a bigger overview? Or is it because we don't change the sprites that this would be a necessary consequence? In other words, if we were to update sprites and thus create more pixels we could have a higher resolution without having a bigger view in game?
It's not cheating, properly defined, if it's a standard feature available to everyone. I thought that'd be obvious. There is no good reason to not increase the overview imo.
Imbalance is the reason, even if both players are with same resolution. Imagine Fighting spirit map, one player is up right, other is down right, due to widescreen, the player that is down can spot his base better in case of drop(cuz its mostly coming from the left side to his main), rather than the player up(he have the view towards his entrance). I think maps should be redesigned if we get to see more in wide screen.
@Jaedrik: Resolution/keymap changes make the playing field uneven, plain and simple. Brood War is lauded for its longevity, and its longevity is in large part due to the balance. You get what you put into it and so does your opponent. Amount of territory displayed per screen and hotkeys are uniform for all players. Violating this balance would violate the fairness of the game, IMO. You have not made a compelling argument for doing so. There is no way you can convince me that a person who sees more of the screen is in no way advantaged over a player who sees less. This includes Animus's points as well as the fact that screen lock keys like F2 would become more powerful for macro and that battles will be managed more easily for the greater screenview player. However, thankfully it appears to not be an issue given that the developers here are not going to implement anything relevant to gameplay (from what I've seen in this thread).
I think the best comparison to Broodwar, in terms of the function it fills in the gaming community, is probably Melee: an older game, excellently designed, that reached a competitive status far beyond what anyone anticipated. Part of the charm of both games is that they have reached the point of being static: the only changes come from players discovering something new, and for Broodwar, occasionally the maps (although Fighting Spirit seems to be freezing everything in time as well). This means that in learning to play both games, you're going to be following in the footsteps of a very stable tradition, closer to chess or martial arts than to most other competitive games. In Melee, you are strictly limited to standard Gamecube controllers and standard Nintendo Gamecubes (and even CRT televisions), because of the stability they offer to the game. When playing Melee, you don't ever have to worry about equipment until you break a controller. Ideally, Starcraft should be the same way, and all you need to be concerned with is the game. Future patches mean nothing, new equipment means nothing, and there's no advantage you can conceive of or anticipate that doesn't come from yourself. There will never be a time where someone will say: "Well, your mechanics are excellent, but in order to actually play the game, you need to go buy a new monitor." Thank goodness for that.
*Exception: a good mouse+keyboard is pretty important, but that only becomes prominent in extremely high-level play.
On May 13 2016 14:59 LuckyFool wrote: I remember first hearing about this project a couple years ago and being blown away by some of these features. Matchmaking alone and ease of getting games is big enough let alone all the other OS/system/networking features.
This has the potential to jolt the BW scene back to life in a big way, imagine this bringing BW back into the esports mainstream.
Amazing stuff, I will totally be playing BW again as a result of this.
I think it's totally possible. It's still insanely popular and in fact still one of the most popular games in korea. Still streamed live on tv.
Flash streams on it daily.
Can totally see it coming back if this fixes lat issues. Think that was a big downer for most players and the OS problems. Having a matchmaking system implemented and a lat fix is game changing.
Can't for the official release and hope blizzard doesn't ruin it for the loyal bw/orig players.
EPT
I misunderstood something.
