EPTSSL12 in doubt - Page 4
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
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lemmata
468 Posts
On September 23 2015 03:59 Lonyo wrote: Is there support that Sbenu isn't profitable? Not that I doubt it couldn't be, considering it's growing and probably requiring significant up front investment especially if they are sorting out designs and production, plus lots of marketing, just wondering where the information comes from and whether there are any available figures to show the position. Most licensing agreements also will have a combination of up front costs and per item costs, or one or the other, depending on how it's worked out. For Man U I would assume they would set an up front licensing fee to guarantee them some money, and then also a per item fee, so that would probably make them take a reasonable hit as well like you say, and on an up front basis as well. Here's a figure that made the rounds on the web some time ago. It says that Sbenu had operating losses around $170,000 USD in 2014. The losses are before paying taxes or interest on loans. Since Sbenu was made into a separate entity in Fall 2014, you can extrapolate (if naively, then 4x for annual figures) a bit given that it continued to expand even more aggressively this year. So SSL likely has had a nontrivial effect on the bottom line. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/GEzEpU7.png) | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On September 22 2015 17:22 Waxangel wrote: I wonder if this means that SBENU is in financial trouble? Could just be pressure from his business partners to be more responsible. I can't imagine financial trouble when he's expanding globally and striking big deals. I guess it's not unthinkable he could have spread himself too thin. To me it sounds like he's spending every dime trying to make his company as big as possible. He could return to BW at a later date when he gets returns on all his expansion. Real properly produced Starleague isn't cheap to run, very different from the old Sonic days when he barely had to pay anyone. So it's easy to see how working it into the budget is difficult, especially if it affects the trust of his business partners who want him to care about their bottom lines. I wasn't expecting it, but I'm not really shocked either. The level of production quality vs the quality of the games was way out of sync. Kongdoo is a good middle step if BW is going to keep fighting. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On September 23 2015 09:11 Chef wrote: Could just be pressure from his business partners to be more responsible. I can't imagine financial trouble when he's expanding globally and striking big deals. I guess it's not unthinkable he could have spread himself too thin. To me it sounds like he's spending every dime trying to make his company as big as possible. He could return to BW at a later date when he gets returns on all his expansion. Real properly produced Starleague isn't cheap to run, very different from the old Sonic days when he barely had to pay anyone. So it's easy to see how working it into the budget is difficult, especially if it affects the trust of his business partners who want him to care about their bottom lines. I wasn't expecting it, but I'm not really shocked either. The level of production quality vs the quality of the games was way out of sync. Kongdoo is a good middle step if BW is going to keep fighting. i think the quality of play was good. Granted this time Bisu/hero wasn't picture perfect, but overall i was pretty satisfied. Perhaps you're a bit nostalgic and don't recall all the mediocre games the OSL and MSL even gave us way back then? xD Coz i recall some. | ||
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BeStFAN
483 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11944 Posts
It seems to me all this investing into esports + Manchester U beginning to bite. It's natural because he's spending and it's not like return will be instant. On September 23 2015 03:43 lemmata wrote: For what it's worth... here are some stream-of-consciousness-level thoughts. 5) I remember after FIX SSL9 and Gabangpop Proleague (when the Afreeca BW scene was arguably at its peak), Zeus once said something (many months ago) on stream about how pro gamers had missed a huge opportunity to revive the scene in a more sustainable way because of their shortsightedness about the importance of big leagues. More can be said about this in a systematic way, but I will leave it at that. I agree with his argument that some of this falls on the pro gamers...although I don't think that I can truly blame them because most of them don't have the level of education and life experience to see these things. Can you elaborate? I was away during this time so I can't understand well. ^_^ | ||
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SlayerS_BunkiE
Canada1717 Posts
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KatjaKean
Hungary59 Posts
Expanding and the new deals must have been huge investments for his company, and that usually requires loans. I really hope his investments pay off in the mid/long term, and they can survive this rough patch without going under. | ||
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Shinta)
United States1716 Posts
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Wrath
3176 Posts
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Chef
10810 Posts
On September 23 2015 09:50 Cele wrote: i think the quality of play was good. Granted this time Bisu/hero wasn't picture perfect, but overall i was pretty satisfied. Perhaps you're a bit nostalgic and don't recall all the mediocre games the OSL and MSL even gave us way back then? xD Coz i recall some. I don't think so, it's not even close. Might depend on what you're watching for though. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9571 Posts
On September 23 2015 20:53 Chef wrote: I don't think so, it's not even close. Might depend on what you're watching for though. Not even close? Are you basing this argument on the actual games you've watched or on a feeling you have that games can't possibly be on the same level due to a different way of practice nowadays? While it's very hard to compare, in any meaningful way, the quality of games nowadays to the KeSPA days, I think Cele is right and there's definitely certain amount of nostalgia involved in your opinion. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3048 Posts
On September 23 2015 18:43 WrathSCII wrote: I wonder if OGN would help with it... They seemed interested enough to talk about future english casters for the next seasons... No. In other news, people have to realize that SBENU was not only trying to sponsor BW but other leagues in Korea (Spotv Starleague, LoL Champions) as well as trying to expand his company with clothing line instead of just shoes. And if some people are yelling at him to drop BW, then it makes sense. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On September 23 2015 07:31 lemmata wrote: Here's a figure that made the rounds on the web some time ago. It says that Sbenu had operating losses around $170,000 USD in 2014. The losses are before paying taxes or interest on loans. Since Sbenu was made into a separate entity in Fall 2014, you can extrapolate (if naively, then 4x for annual figures) a bit given that it continued to expand even more aggressively this year. So SSL likely has had a nontrivial effect on the bottom line. + Show Spoiler + Thanks. I wasn't sure if there would be any actual financial data available (or how I would go about finding it). The credit rating doesn't look too great either, which could mean getting loans/etc would be more difficult which squeezes cashflows as well. If it was their first period they might have had some one off setup expenses like legal costs/etc, so that figure might be a bit high to annualise, potentially as well. But the main thing would be cashflows, since any business can easily run at a loss for a while, as long as they have some cash. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
It takes a large, stable business to be able to keep up a sponsorship like this. It's sort of sad, but money was always an issue with BW. | ||
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jinyung2
Luxembourg1455 Posts
he could totally sell one of these and sponsor BW  | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
His business is bound to require a huge amount of cash at the moment before their expansion can provide profits. This means they can't be throwing spare cash out to sponsor things for 'passion' when there is no benefit to their bottom line besides a vague marketing bonus to a non-target audience. There is no way Sonic could justify these costs to investors or business partners. Anyone doubting Sonics passion just needs to remember what he's done for BW the last years, investing more than the entire foreign community in its complete existence has. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19399 Posts
On September 24 2015 08:56 DarkNetHunter wrote: Nothing terribly surprising, also nothing to worry about a lot. His business is bound to require a huge amount of cash at the moment before their expansion can provide profits. This means they can't be throwing spare cash out to sponsor things for 'passion' when there is no benefit to their bottom line besides a vague marketing bonus to a non-target audience. There is no way Sonic could justify these costs to investors or business partners. Anyone doubting Sonics passion just needs to remember what he's done for BW the last years, investing more than the entire foreign community in its complete existence has. Let's not forget what TL.net's creators have done for foreign BW or 2pac's contributions! | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On September 24 2015 09:03 BisuDagger wrote: Let's not forget what TL.net's creators have done for foreign BW or 2pac's contributions! or everybody else's. Since foreign BW =/= only TL. But i think weighing contributions is pretty vain and naturally we all lack the oversight to make such statements. For instance, i know a guy who ran of the biggest and prestigious foreign Clan league - the BWCL for three years alone. Is he a big time contributor? Yes. Does anybody remember m4nu for what he did for us?i doubt many do. So let's stop making comparisons about contributions. Truth is, Sonic is a hero and in my mind, so are: 2pac Nazgul General_Mengsk Zerush Moon Yoda Largo Gecko Dingdang and a couple dozen others. i could add a hundred more names without even thinking too hard. What's even the point of comparing them? | ||
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DarkNetHunter
1224 Posts
On September 24 2015 09:58 Cele wrote: or everybody else's. Since foreign BW =/= only TL. But i think weighing contributions is pretty vain and naturally we all lack the oversight to make such statements. For instance, i know a guy who ran of the biggest and prestigious foreign Clan league - the BWCL for three years alone. Is he a big time contributor? Yes. Does anybody remember m4nu for what he did for us?i doubt many do. So let's stop making comparisons about contributions. Truth is, Sonic is a hero and in my mind, so are: 2pac Nazgul General_Mengsk Zerush Moon Yoda Largo Gecko Dingdang and a couple dozen others. i could add a hundred more names without even thinking too hard. What's even the point of comparing them? Sorry I did not mean time invested in our scene, for that we definitely have a huge number of fantastic contributors. However financially Sonic has provided more than all the above mentioned to the BW scene. In any case it was not meant to start a comparison of contributions, just to give some perspective to those people complaining that he's not investing every penny he owns in BW or why he shouldn't have a nice car. | ||
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