EPT[Article] Best Terran's to never win a major. - Page 6
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c3rberUs
Japan11944 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES51710 Posts
On November 18 2014 21:59 c3rberUs wrote: IMO, FantaSy transformed into S-class near the end of Brood War. Remember how he beat FlaSh in the proleague finals? its arguable but I'm on the side that believes you are true, fantasy deserved to be called S class by the end of BW. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On November 18 2014 22:46 BLinD-RawR wrote: its arguable but I'm on the side that believes you are true, fantasy deserved to be called S class by the end of BW. Yeah, it's totally argueable. From what I remember he had a win ratio equal or even slightly better than Flash. He "just" did bad in the major leagues. He was still a Pro League monster nonetheless. What's argueable to me is whether or not Bisu could still be counted as S Class player towards the end of competitive KeSPA (!) BW. Imo he slumped compared to what he was capable of doing earlier in his career and compared to the strongest players nowhere close to making it far in OSL/MSL. He would've not won any OSL obviously, cause Bisu. | ||
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
And it shouldn't be up for debate whether Fantasy was an S-class player. He wasn't a centralizing figure like Flash or Jaedong but he was was the favorite in almost every game he played and made deep runs in many individual leagues. A-class is more like the twin towers of HERO, Midas, or Leta. Solid players that stopped short of domination. Leta was no bonjwa, but he was a stronger AND a more dominant player in his day than many starleague medalists. Putting Hwasin, Goodfriend or Berserker ahead of him is nothing short of oblivious. | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
The evidence which can support this statement is that he never amounted to anything in sc2, cuz he had no OOV to handfeed him builds and he got no handicaps via lack of good players or players with injuries in his matches | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
On November 18 2014 15:31 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Discussion is about best terrans who never won a major.plus the long list of Terran OSL/MSL winners | ||
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intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
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FaCE_1
Canada6185 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On November 19 2014 01:27 saltywet wrote: fantasy is a bad and overrated player that lived off the builds tailored by oov, and got the silvers and gold by strategical efforts not his own (mechanically he is good though i must admit; without the tutalage of oov he would amount to the level of really or puma, who had good mechanics but were predictable, unversatile practice partners who couldn't adapt to change, hailed and hyped to be top 5 terrans by artosis but failed when they joined the a-teams of their teams; artosis also claimed leta was a bad player nowhere near top 5 iirc). The last 2 silvers in tving and jin air osl that he obtained without oov were a result of the transition to SC2 where no one good practiced BW anymore and flash injured his wrist, the only reason he got to the finals. The evidence which can support this statement is that he never amounted to anything in sc2, cuz he had no OOV to handfeed him builds and he got no handicaps via lack of good players or players with injuries in his matches The bolded part is an awful argument. This is like saying (drugs aside) Lance Armstrong wasn't a very good cyclist because he never captured mountain bike titles and when he tried running could only run a 2:46 marathon. Completely unrelated factors. It's so bad in fact it's difficult to tell if this is serious or trolling. More importantly, Fantasy was a player who wasn't exactly known for mechanics to begin with, and for the longest time was noted for having relatively poor bio v Z as a consequence of said weaker mechanics. With that in mind the premise of your argument doesn't even make sense. You can say oov helped Fantasy with builds and doing well in individual leagues but Fantasy was also an extremely strong PL player, which has very little to do with builds, especially in Winners league format where you can't even have a prepared build. Not to mention Fantasy has, iirc, the second best win ratio of any terran at 63% overall, and a 65% win ratio in TvP, the matchup known for giving terran hell until about 2013. Statistics aren't everything but there is no way on earth a "bad" player waltzs into the second highest winning percentage of all time for his race. That alone tells you he is solid A class. Whether that denotes true top tier S class qualifications is a legitimate debate, but yours is an argument that bases nothing on the actual events of what happened. You're argument can be summed up as 'Fantasy was a bad player cause I said for arbitrary reasons we should just not count his SL victories as 'legitmate' wins, and of course we can just ignore his absurd win ratios because why not". On an unrelated note, I'm going about 60/40 chance I'm getting trolled here. If so, that's a respectable effort. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21248 Posts
On November 19 2014 02:15 IntoTheheart wrote: I still don't know how I feel about Iris being second to Midas. Midas is probably the second best player to never win a tournament. The gap between Midas and Iris is massive. Midas just had the misfortune of sharing an era with one of the most dominant players in the history of the game ~_~ On November 19 2014 01:17 Mirabel_ wrote: Leta was no bonjwa, but he was a stronger AND a more dominant player in his day than many starleague medalists. Putting Hwasin, Goodfriend or Berserker ahead of him is nothing short of oblivious. I mean this is just objectively wrong so whatever. On November 18 2014 16:12 Crunchums wrote: of course you can. that list covers the entire history of BW. it's a spectrum. fantasy is A+ and Leta is A Meh, then we're just splitting hairs over boundaries. By your spectrum the worst A-team players are still like B-, which seems kinda silly. On November 19 2014 02:07 figq wrote: Discussion is about best terrans who never won a major. Way to cherry pick a tiny phrase from to post to completely distort the argument. Did you miss the part where I listed 10+ players who never won a tournament in addition to the top 5 in the OP? | ||
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
On November 19 2014 04:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Meh, then we're just splitting hairs over boundaries. By your spectrum the worst A-team players are still like B-, which seems kinda silly. The worst A-team players were C-F. B is like Roro or something | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On November 16 2014 10:39 Jaded. wrote: BadFriend* http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/42563-progaming-gossip?page=3#46 this is the only thing I can ever think of when I see GoodFriend  Agreed with many that Leta, Hwasin, and TheMarine could be on this list. On November 19 2014 01:17 Mirabel_ wrote: You can't drop down from S-class, but if you could, Flash was less of an S-class player than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW. And it shouldn't be up for debate whether Fantasy was an S-class player. He wasn't a centralizing figure like Flash or Jaedong but he was was the favorite in almost every game he played and made deep runs in many individual leagues. A-class is more like the twin towers of HERO, Midas, or Leta. Solid players that stopped short of domination. Leta was no bonjwa, but he was a stronger AND a more dominant player in his day than many starleague medalists. Putting Hwasin, Goodfriend or Berserker ahead of him is nothing short of oblivious. I like your writing style LOL | ||
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
S-class players are the kings of kings, the transcenders. Everyone in this class is a threat to everyone else, and they are favored over everyone else below them. If one of these players is the clear favorite to win over every other S-class player, they are S+ (Flash). Throughout Starcraft's history, it's been exceedingly rare for there to be more than two players concurrently exhibiting transcendental play. All the bonjwa candidates were S-class players. A-class players are the solid players - everyone here has a shot at beating an S-class players in a Bo#, but is not particularly favored. Iris and Goodfriend are good examples of A-class players. Proleague snipers with an undeniable S-class matchup (like Light) belong here as well. B-class players are those who can compete with the A-class but have severe limitations against the S-class. This tier also includes inconsistent flashes in the pan, and gimmicky players that have a niche transcending their skill levels. Classic and UpMaGiC were good examples of this. C-class players have no hope of winning a series off the S-class players and would require extreme luck and preperation to beat A-class players. By.Barracks and a certain Woongjin Terran go here. F-class is the 99%. All the players that GTR and I listed are A-class players. Fantasy is S-class, and I think people are confused about that fact because Flash made all the S-classes of that era look bad. I mean this is just objectively wrong so whatever. I am of an open mind, but if you hope to change it I'll need some effort. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 19 2014 06:55 Mirabel_ wrote: I am of an open mind, but if you hope to change it I'll need some effort. Ultimately, the end-all-be-all of being able to win a Starleague is strong series play. The lower spots on the list of "best players that didn't win a Starleague" will have players that were PL superstars that could never close a Bo5, but ultimately the players who could show strong BoX play, but were just not able to go the distance against the stars of their day are going to be be closer to the top than those who could take PL wins from those stars but looked poor when they had the chance to show us an individual league series. Leta didn't "stop short of domination". As a player who literally never showed convincing series play, he didn't even come close. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
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IloveFlaSh
Russian Federation15 Posts
On November 18 2014 18:34 icystorage wrote: I consider it more like Leta's TvT - S-Class (can stand toe-to-toe with the top TvTers) TvP - fucking garbage seriously TvT - A (give or take) You gotta also consider that he had a team composed mostly of match-fixers. just my 2c tho! Ok. Light: TvT - A (give or take) TvP - F---- worst TvP player ever? TvZ - S-class but Light is #3 | ||
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Mirabel_
United States1768 Posts
On November 19 2014 07:10 TheYango wrote: Ultimately, the end-all-be-all of being able to win a Starleague is strong series play. The lower spots on the list of "best players that didn't win a Starleague" will have players that were PL superstars that could never close a Bo5, but ultimately the players who could show strong BoX play, but were just not able to go the distance against the stars of their day are going to be be closer to the top than those who could take PL wins from those stars but looked poor when they had the chance to show us an individual league series. Leta didn't "stop short of domination". As a player who literally never showed convincing series play, he didn't even come close. You know, I wasn't even considering individual versus proleague play. It's a very valid point that Leta was weaker in BoX, although frankly his competition was way further from the pack than Iris's or Goodfriend's. As the ace for sparkyz, his stats in proleague weren't even as good. GTR made clear with TheMarine that if someone was overshadowed hard enough they weren't relevant to this list, but how can you compete with Flash and Fanta? | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
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