I'm bored during this holiday period, and I wanted to refine my writing whenever I had some free time so I've decided to start a series called 'Best (insert race here)'s to never win a major'. It's basically a reflection upon my years of observing professional Brood War for over a decade - ranking from five to one players of a respective race that were never able to win one of the two premier titles in Korean Brood War, the Ongamenet Starleague or the MBCgame MSL.
Now you ask, how did I evaluate each position? For me, it's all about how much impact the player had during their time as a professional player and the legacy they've left behind. Statistics and past results may or may not matter - it's up to you, the reader, to judge whether or not it is relevant towards this pseudo-ranking.
This topic has come many a time among Brood War enthusiasts, and I feel by compiling some sort of rudimentary ranking by writing an article piece, I can give some sort of basis for which people can argue their case over.
#5. Sea (염보성, Yum Bo-seong)
No surprises here as Team Liquid's very own Sea appears on this list. As arguably part of the first breed of middle-school aged professional players instilled into the progaming lifestyle (from the top of my head it was him and fOfy[gm] from Hanbit Stars), there were high expectations of Sea after joining the fledgling Pirates of Space team in 2004.
Touted by their coach at the time 'aficionado' as their next secret weapon after JulyZerg in an interview with Team Liquid in that same year, Sea made an immediate impact in the first Proleague season after the OGN-MBC team league merger in 2005. In 2006, in an interview also by Team Liquid with the Emperor of Terran - Boxer, he stated that Sea was the most promising Terran in the scene during that time.
However, for what has plagued for all of Sea's career, his strong performances in Proleague would be shadowed by constantly mediocre performances in both premier individual leagues, never placing past the round of 8. Despite being dubbed the 'King of Proleague' by those in the media, Sea's struggles in the OSL and MSL had become somewhat of a running joke in the community.
Despite having a well-rounded play style, Sea was never one to be prepared for individual series matches. While his play style was very strong for the Proleague style format (of preparing one match or two each week), his inability to prepare properly for a best of three or five series against a single opponent would cost him time and time again. In addition, the mindset of not having a team behind him in the case that he failed (Proleague), would hamper his psych in the booth, making him more prone to mistakes during his individual league runs.
There's no doubt that Sea was extremely talented, but if he eventually put it all together like we all expected him to during his long and illustrious career, then his legacy in terms of individual league success is moot. For his strong Proleague performances though, he merits a spot on this list.
#4. Goodfriend (이병민, Lee Byeong-min)
As much crap as I (along with many other people among the Brood War community) give towards Goodfriend over his career, it's hard to ignore that in his prime, he was undoubtedly the top of the second-tier of Terran's behind iloveoov and Nada. While Nada and iloveoov helped popularize the macro-style of Terran that we all know today, Goodfriend's emphasis of sticking to the basics helped him become one of the most boring but safe Terran's ever to play the game.
Unfortunately for him, for what he's achieved as a player, Goodfriend's career will always be remembered as a recipient of three of professional Starcraft's most memorable moments; his EVER 2005 OSL defeat to JulyZerg, the 'bus-ride' against iloveoov on Nostalgia during the Gillette OSL and most infamously, Nal_rA's hallucination recall on Parallel Lines during the SPRIS MSL.
His defeat to July in the EVER 2005 OSL was a textbook example of how better preparation for a best-of series will overcome sheer mechanics and fundamentals. Knowing July as an aggressive and unorthodox Zerg player, Goodfriend along with his team mates and coaching staff (Nada et al) helped develop a series plan to combat July during the finals. Despite being able to win two games with some nifty strategies, July outwitted Goodfriend in the end - with the pinnacle being the last-ditch surround effort by July on the final game on Forte, giving July his second OSL trophy. Goodfriend, clearly devastated, saw his Starleague championship dreams slip away in that single moment.
His infamous loss to iloveoov during the Gillette OSL would lead to a series of memes and jokes centered around the manner of his loss to iloveoov (you can find details here). Despite doing everything correctly, Goodfriend simply had no answer to iloveoov's insane macro management. Lastly, as a victim of Nal_rA's mass hallucination recall strategy, Goodfriend is mostly known among the casual viewers of Starcraft as 'that' guy who lost to Nal_rA.
Despite playing a race which was used by the majority of players and having a boring playstyle, Goodfriend is an oddity. Despite not having as much appreciation as other Terran players on a similar skill level such as Xellos or Midas, he is still respected as a well-rounded Terran player that had his moments.
#3. Light (이재호, Lee Jae-ho)
If someone were to ask me, "Hey GTR, what would the average Korean Terran look like?", I would point them towards Light. Him - like many other Korean Terran's which have come and gone over the duration of professional Korean Starcraft, Light would be the perennial example of a typical Korean Terran. Strong TvZ, Good TvT, Mediocre TvP. Blessed with impeccable multi-tasking, he could run circles around Zergs on unfavorable maps, but couldn't hold his own against Protoss every time he ran into them during individual leagues.
Much like his team mate Sea, Light would be a consistent performer in Proleague, but could never put together a solid individual league run - and the one time he did, he faced an in-form Jaedong in the semi-finals (Bigfile MSL). After taking out Effort in the quarter finals; in what is in my opinion, one of the best TvZ series of all time, Light took Jaedong to five games before succumbing to Jaedong's trademark mutalisk aggression in game 5.
Having the architecture of an Average Korean Terran's has not stopped players from being able to win individual leagues if the bracket works in their favor. Just look at Sync (NATE OSL) and Casy (Shinhan S1 OSL) - Terran's renowned for their skill in the Zerg match-up, but having hideously embarrassing Protoss win-rates.
For Light, while he may have been better as a player all-round than these two former OSL winners, his inability to develop a consistent TvP game had limited him from becoming the next big Terran player and as such, lands on this list as a Terran that was never able to win a major individual league.
#2. Iris (변형태, Byeon Hyeong-tae)
Much like Goodfriend, I feel that Iris' legacy will always be highlighted by several memorable moments in Starcraft history; the historical semi-final against an unstoppable sAviOr where he took him to five nail-biting games (Shinhan S2 OSL) and being defeated 3-2 after leading two games against GGPlay in the Daum OSL final.
You have to credit Iris for breaking the mold of boring 'Goodfriend-style' Terran's dominating the scene at the time. Known for his aggressive play style, Iris acquired the nickname of 'Berserker Terran' (and would take up this nickname as his new ID for a period of time), which would join the other ubiquitous nickname the Korean's gave him of 'Sexy Terran'.
While many people talk about Iris' success in his first peak in late 2006-early 2007, many disregard his second peak in late 2009. This second peak can arguably be highlighted by one single game against Bisu in the Avalon MSL Round of 8. The final set saw Bisu hit Iris' with a reaver timing attack, crippling his economy. However, through sheer persistence and harassment, Iris was able to hold off all of Bisu's attacks, chipping away at his economy until finally marching with one single hanbang to finish the game. Iris would later on face his team mate Kwanro - and while heavily favoured to win, could not deal with Kwanro's own aggression and would proceed to be eliminated in the semi-finals.
Due to sAviOr's dominance as CJ's ace in Proleague, Iris used the individual leagues to showcase his abilities and skill to the general audience. During his best individual league runs, his predictable aggressive TvZ style would be counteracted by the strong management styles of sAviOr/GGPlay. As for his loss against Kwanro? He just wasn't prepared enough for what came to him.
It's easy to like Iris - he was in a popular team and had a unique play style different to the other players at the time. With my vivid memory of game three on Hitchhiker against GGPlay on the Daum OSL finals, it's hard to imagine that if he didn't mismanage his tank push timing, he could have swept GGPlay 3-0 and come away with a major individual league.
#1. Midas (전상욱, Jeon Sang-wook)
Known as Baby Bear in Korea due to his resemblance to his former teammate 'Papa Bear' fOru, Midas tops the list of best Terran's never to win a major league. Widely considered as the only Terran to be able to match sAviOr in his prime, Midas was also responsible for changing the dynamic of early game TvP with the development of the fake double (FD) build.
However, while he was able to keep sAviOr on his toes, the incident which will forever haunt Midas for the rest of his life was picking him as his opponent in the Shinhan S3 OSL Ro16. Despite picking him in the Ro24 and winning decisively, Midas felt compelled to prove to everyone that he was the best player in Korea. His tactic fell short though, inspiring sAviOr to beat down Midas, and would eventually take him down 2-1. sAviOr would go on to royal road and win the Shinhan S3 OSL. Many speculate if Midas didn't pick sAviOr in that Ro16 selection, we could have had a different story.
After a sub par 2007 season, it seemed that Midas was done for. With continuing mediocre results in Proleague and struggles to even qualify for any of the individual leagues, it would not be until SK Telecom decided to move on from Midas and his subsequent transfer to Wemade FOX where Midas would receive a second peak.
Surrounded by Terran's such as Nada and Baby, he was able to make a deep run in the Hana Daetoo MSL, surprising people by defeating Flash in the Ro32 and demonstrating his trademark TvP against JangBi in the Ro16. In the Ro8 he would face Jaedong - and while introducing a unique style of mechanic play, he could not overcome the Tyrant himself and lost 0-3. Despite the tough loss, his new innovation would mark the beginnings of a shift in the meta game for the match-up.
Whenever Midas and sAviOr faced each other, the audience was guaranteed great games. Unfortunately for Midas - while having some of the best TvP in the world; a feat other Terran's did not have, his unfortunate luck in facing sAviOr in multiple individual league runs would see him unable to accomplish an individual league victory. For his innovations to the game and his ability to dominate players other than sAviOr in his prime, I feel that Midas deserves to top this list.
Thanks for reading. Feel free to comment and please spread this article by retweeting the following tweet and posting on Reddit.
I should have the next article up in the next week or so, depending on when I can find time to write. I'm not sure whether to talk about Protoss or Zerg, so I'll leave it to you guys to decide.
Good list. I don't think I would argue any of the spots.
As a Terran player/fan this brings back some painful memories. Midas/Iris had some really heartbreaking moments, even Badfriend in the final game vs July on Forte... ugh
Despite doing everything correctly, Goodfriend simply had no answer to iloveoov's insane macro management.
I really hate that this myth still prevails. Iloveoov, despite popular belief, had bad mechanics [relative to top tier pros]. He was bad at macro, and constantly missed depot timings and stacked up on minerals and gas. He was considered a beast in macro for the simple reason that he understood the meta game better than others (hell, he basically created that eras meta game). He took macro advantages with intelligent builds that others didnt fully grasp. July vs oov is actually a textbook example of that, where Julys aggression constantly punishes oov's greediness, and after that (semi final?) forced him to play a less greedy tvz style. It was the same in the other match ups. Oov's "macro" abilities were the consequence of his superior grasp of strategy.
Despite doing everything correctly, Goodfriend simply had no answer to iloveoov's insane macro management.
I really hate that this myth still prevails. Iloveoov, despite popular belief, had bad mechanics [relative to top tier pros]. He was bad at macro, and constantly missed depot timings and stacked up on minerals and gas. He was considered a beast in macro for the simple reason that he understood the meta game better than others (hell, he basically created that eras meta game). He took macro advantages with intelligent builds that others didnt fully grasp. July vs oov is actually a textbook example of that, where Julys aggression constantly punishes oov's greediness, and after that (semi final?) forced him to play a less greedy tvz style. It was the same in the other match ups. Oov's "macro" abilities were the consequence of his superior grasp of strategy.
Must have won all those titles off sheer luck or something idk. The average C Iccup player could make all of them look like shit nowadays. Doesn't change the fact that at the time he could out macro and beat like..everyone
Despite doing everything correctly, Goodfriend simply had no answer to iloveoov's insane macro management.
I really hate that this myth still prevails. Iloveoov, despite popular belief, had bad mechanics [relative to top tier pros]. He was bad at macro, and constantly missed depot timings and stacked up on minerals and gas. He was considered a beast in macro for the simple reason that he understood the meta game better than others (hell, he basically created that eras meta game). He took macro advantages with intelligent builds that others didnt fully grasp. July vs oov is actually a textbook example of that, where Julys aggression constantly punishes oov's greediness, and after that (semi final?) forced him to play a less greedy tvz style. It was the same in the other match ups. Oov's "macro" abilities were the consequence of his superior grasp of strategy.
Must have won all those titles off sheer luck or something idk. The average C Iccup player could make all of them look like shit nowadays. Doesn't change the fact that at the time he could out macro and beat like..everyone
You missed the point Dazed was making I do believe, which is that when most people think of a player having crazy macro, its from a mechanics sense. Always making units, great worker production, spot on production building times, etc. Dazed is arguing Oov didn't have that.
What gave oov his great macro was his superior understanding that allowed him to do builds and timings that got him into a far superior economic position. Now, I'd still argue that relative to his opponents that qualifies as great macro, and thus it's fair to say oov had insane macro for his day, even if it didn't stem from the mechanics side.
Despite doing everything correctly, Goodfriend simply had no answer to iloveoov's insane macro management.
I really hate that this myth still prevails. Iloveoov, despite popular belief, had bad mechanics [relative to top tier pros]. He was bad at macro, and constantly missed depot timings and stacked up on minerals and gas. He was considered a beast in macro for the simple reason that he understood the meta game better than others (hell, he basically created that eras meta game). He took macro advantages with intelligent builds that others didnt fully grasp. July vs oov is actually a textbook example of that, where Julys aggression constantly punishes oov's greediness, and after that (semi final?) forced him to play a less greedy tvz style. It was the same in the other match ups. Oov's "macro" abilities were the consequence of his superior grasp of strategy.
Must have won all those titles off sheer luck or something idk. The average C Iccup player could make all of them look like shit nowadays. Doesn't change the fact that at the time he could out macro and beat like..everyone
You missed the point Dazed was making I do believe, which is that when most people think of a player having crazy macro, its from a mechanics sense. Always making units, great worker production, spot on production building times, etc. Dazed is arguing Oov didn't have that.
What gave oov his great macro was his superior understanding that allowed him to do builds and timings that got him into a far superior economic position. Now, I'd still argue that relative to his opponents that qualifies as great macro, and thus it's fair to say oov had insane macro for his day, even if it didn't stem from the mechanics side.
To add on, I believe there was an article or an interview on TL somewhere iloveoov says something along the lines of: I'm being pressured, still, I'll double expand behind it etc... then with the added eco, he'll crush his opponent after holding. Brilliant when you think about it. Your opponent is unlikely to think that you'll not only expand but double expand behind his attack.
Re: Hwasin - Match fixer, also had one peak which coincided with Midas/Iris. Leta - Overrated as a player IMO. He's a slightly better Really. FBH/UpMagic - Gimmicky players who would never be able to have won a championship no matter how much they prepared.
I have to say I'd put Sea over Light if we're talking about who was better. Light definitely got better results from 2010 on in individual leagues, but Sea was more of a proleague beast. Definitely makes sense to weight individual performance more for an article about best players never to win one, though.
I know TheMarine peaked during the days of no OSL and MSL but he was still a strong player nonetheless (even made it to the upper brackets of some leagues in 2004). With his skill set and 'game intellect' (discount 1999-2001 mechanics) could he have a realistic shot at winning a major title had he been born a few years later? I'm curious because he was beyond my time.
On November 16 2014 09:52 c3rberUs wrote: I know TheMarine peaked during the days of no OSL and MSL but he was still a strong player nonetheless (even made it to the upper brackets of some leagues in 2004). With his skill set and 'game intellect' (discount 1999-2001 mechanics) could he have a realistic shot at winning a major title had he been born a few years later? I'm curious because he was beyond my time.
I was tempted to put TheMarine in because he was the strongest proponent of the 'by-the-book' style of Terran, but unfortunately he was shadowed so much by Boxer that he didn't get the exposure he deserved. I think if he remained with GO with Xellos/Midas etc instead of moving over to KTF, I think he would have made several deep runs in individual leagues.
On November 16 2014 09:11 GTR wrote: Re: Hwasin - Match fixer, also had one peak which coincided with Midas/Iris. Leta - Overrated as a player IMO. He's a slightly better Really. FBH/UpMagic - Gimmicky players who would never be able to have won a championship no matter how much they prepared.
So, what you're saying is, you get to decide who is 'truly' talented and who isn't.
On November 16 2014 09:11 GTR wrote: FBH/UpMagic - Gimmicky players who would never be able to have won a championship no matter how much they prepared.
On November 16 2014 09:52 c3rberUs wrote: I know TheMarine peaked during the days of no OSL and MSL but he was still a strong player nonetheless (even made it to the upper brackets of some leagues in 2004). With his skill set and 'game intellect' (discount 1999-2001 mechanics) could he have a realistic shot at winning a major title had he been born a few years later? I'm curious because he was beyond my time.
I was tempted to put TheMarine in because he was the strongest proponent of the 'by-the-book' style of Terran, but unfortunately he was shadowed so much by Boxer that he didn't get the exposure he deserved. I think if he remained with GO with Xellos/Midas etc instead of moving over to KTF, I think he would have made several deep runs in individual leagues.
Man now that I think about it, if GO retained everybody - Nal_rA, Midas, XellOs, GoRush, TheMarine~, they would've been absurdly good if not unstoppable.
On November 16 2014 09:12 nbaker wrote: I have to say I'd put Sea over Light if we're talking about who was better. Light definitely got better results from 2010 on in individual leagues, but Sea was more of a proleague beast. Definitely makes sense to weight individual performance more for an article about best players never to win one, though.
I agree, I think Sea was a much more well rounded player compared to Light. I view it in the same regard that I see Stork vs other protoss; that consistency leads to a better overall player.
In terms of match-up proficiency however, I would give the edge to Light as I believe his TvZ more than made up for his TvP and while Sea's TvT was pretty good, I still felt that it didn't quite balance out his deficit.
On November 16 2014 10:00 GTR wrote: Yes, because statistics mean everything.
So........ Are you telling us that winning more games doesn't make a better player?
You have to put the statistics in context, who you played matters quite a bit. People might look at SK and see his 53% vs T and think "meh, pretty mediocre". But when you look at his matchlist it's something like 75% games versus the big boys: Sea, Flash, hiyA, Light, Fantasy, Bogus. Winning more than half against those guys is pretty damn good.
Don't forget context too, some players can get good winrates (think Kwanro), without every truly having the complete skillset to be a championship contender caliber player. That requires adaptability, flexibility in play styles, generally really solid macro play, and a good mind.
Personally though, I think GTR is still too hard on Leta though. Anyway you cut it, 58% is more than just solid. He wasn't a slightly better Really, he was a strong PL terran. That loved wraiths. A ton.
Only other area I don't think got the attention deserved was Light's TvZ:
Light would be the perennial example of a typical Korean Terran. Strong TvZ, Good TvT, Mediocre TvP. Blessed with impeccable multi-tasking, he could run circles around Zergs on unfavorable maps
Lights TvZ sets him apart from the archetype of the generic Korean Terran. It wasn't just strong, it was masterclass, second only to a certain absurd Terran god. Guy didn't run circles around zergs on unfavorable maps, he ran circles around zergs everywhere. That's considering he had his awful nerves to contend with as well.
You're talking about a guy that literally went several months without losing a practice game to zergs. Crazy.
On November 16 2014 10:42 Xiphos wrote: Leta, Midas, and Sea definitely makes it into my top 5 people to never win anything.
Light is GOOD but if I were to put my money down, he would be definitely behind Leta.
That's always a tough one. How do you class a guy with one insane MU, one solid one, and one weaker one versus a more all rounded player. Really hard for me to make a call there overall, can't overlook how good Light was in TvZ, but at the same time he had glaring weaknesses elsewhere
There were probably only 10 Terrans ever worth ranking in this. The ones you left out being Upmagic, ChRh, TheMarine, Silent_Control and possibly Gundam. Maybe a CBNC to Elky
On November 16 2014 15:29 Plexa wrote: There were probably only 10 Terrans ever worth ranking in this. The ones you left out being Upmagic, ChRh, TheMarine, Silent_Control and possibly Gundam. Maybe a CBNC to Elky
To be fair, most of ChRh's high points were when he was playing random, and even then his best race was protoss IIRC. Definitely wasnt terran though, ironic as that is.
On November 16 2014 09:11 GTR wrote: Leta - Overrated as a player IMO. He's a slightly better Really.
Leta ELO peak 2263 , 58,38% winning percentage
Light ELO peak 2250, 55,17% winning percentage
Leta>Light
On November 16 2014 10:00 GTR wrote: Yes, because statistics mean everything.
So........ Are you telling us that winning more games doesn't make a better player?
You have to put the statistics in context, who you played matters quite a bit. People might look at SK and see his 53% vs T and think "meh, pretty mediocre". But when you look at his matchlist it's something like 75% games versus the big boys: Sea, Flash, hiyA, Light, Fantasy, Bogus. Winning more than half against those guys is pretty damn good.
that's exactly where the ELO ratings come in handy
On November 16 2014 15:29 Plexa wrote: There were probably only 10 Terrans ever worth ranking in this. The ones you left out being Upmagic, ChRh, TheMarine, Silent_Control and possibly Gundam. Maybe a CBNC to Elky
To be fair, most of ChRh's high points were when he was playing random, and even then his best race was protoss IIRC. Definitely wasnt terran though, ironic as that is.
I wouldn't call light an average terran, he had the second best tvz of all time - considering absolute skill, not relative to his time (oov) perhaps one with "exaggerated traits" (see above)
On November 16 2014 16:23 duke91 wrote: Please also start worst players insert race to ever win a major edit worst players to almost win a major(which is silver)
On November 17 2014 02:18 BLinD-RawR wrote: OSL and MSL
So WCG regionals and GOM are considered minor? I don't think any other competitive game uses these definitions.
Yes. GOM could arguably be considered a major, but isn't because it never quite gained the status and only ran for a few seasons. WCG regionals definitely not, was never really a big deal in Korea, and if I recall also had much smaller series then did OSL/MSL.
When BW was big in Korea OSL/MSL were the big boys, the two nationally televises tournaments run by the major broadcasting corporations.
Regardless, I partially disagree with GTR's list of top 5 dominating Terrans not to win an OSL or MSL. For me the list would be:
5th: TheMarine (I don't think he was THAT overshadowed during his career, at least, not as severely as Goodfriend was) 4th: Leta (Overrated? Yes. Not in the top 10 Terrans ever? No.) 3rd: Light (we are in agreement with him being 3rd) 2nd: Sea (This is a Terran with 3 solid matchups. If Protoss didn't exist, Light would surely be #2) 1st: Midas (no doubt about this)
To me, Iris was an easy 6th, Goodfriend was a clear 7th, and HiyA was a clear 8th, with V-Gundam/Really being a tossup for 9th and 10th. Man, I remember a time when I wouldn't have picked HiyA over BaBy and sKyHigh. Now I'd pick him easily over even XellOs and Hwasin.
As an aside, don't use apostrophes for plural. It should be Best Terrans To Never Win, not Best Terran's. because it's not possessive or a contraction <3
Disagree with the lack of Leta, although admittedly I only started watching in 2008, around the time that Leta rose to prominence.
Light ;_; That series he lost to Jaedong in the MSL semifinals was heartbreaking, I still remember him in game 5 as the zerglings were ravaging his base realizing that he had lost.
I think it's Iris. He ran into Savior at his peak and then sideswiped by an upstart GGplay (who I love). And let's not forget getting reverse killed by FREAKING KWANRO
I'd put Sea above Light (Light's TvP is too big of a handicap, no matter how good his TvZ and TvT was). I'd put Leta as fifth, and remove Goodfriend altogether. While my list would be a bit modern-BW-centric, I think it's only fair to rank those who peaked in a much harsher competitive environment, absent certain exceptions (similar to how you'd rank Boxer as a top terran of all time despite being a "bad" player based on modern standards, simply for how innovative he was).
I hate Light but this list is pretty objective. Hard to come up with anyone more deserving.
Midas is for sure one of the most unfortunate players. Extremely skilled but he happened to coincide with Savior destroying everyone.
Leta never would've been able to make a deep run in an individual league - as evidenced by the fact that he has never done so. He was good at doing a few specific things, such as gimmicky 2port Wraith builds in maps that favored cheesy TvZ, but he would've been picked apart in a series by any competent individual league player of any race.
It's a stretch to say he's just a bit better than Really, but he's certainly no contender.
Do we really even need a Zerg list? A single name on it in big bold letters would suffice and we can go home >_>
On November 18 2014 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Leta never would've been able to make a deep run in an individual league - as evidenced by the fact that he has never done so. He was good at doing a few specific things, such as gimmicky 2port Wraith builds in maps that favored cheesy TvZ, but he would've been picked apart in a series by any competent individual league player of any race.
It's a stretch to say he's just a bit better than Really, but he's certainly no contender.
Leta was an A-class player whose best matchup was actually TvT. He rocked people with 2port Wraith in TvZ because he was the best in the world at it, but he was very good at standard TvZ as well. He made it to the quarterfinals of both the OSL and the MSL. I don't want to debate the semantics of what it means for someone to be a contender, but he was in the same tier as players like Calm or Luxury - i.e. good enough to win a title given slightly favorable circumstances.
To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
On November 18 2014 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I hate Light but this list is pretty objective. Hard to come up with anyone more deserving.
Midas is for sure one of the most unfortunate players. Extremely skilled but he happened to coincide with Savior destroying everyone.
Leta never would've been able to make a deep run in an individual league - as evidenced by the fact that he has never done so. He was good at doing a few specific things, such as gimmicky 2port Wraith builds in maps that favored cheesy TvZ, but he would've been picked apart in a series by any competent individual league player of any race.
It's a stretch to say he's just a bit better than Really, but he's certainly no contender.
Do we really even need a Zerg list? A single name on it in big bold letters would suffice and we can go home >_>
On November 18 2014 10:46 Crunchums wrote: To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
On November 18 2014 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I hate Light but this list is pretty objective. Hard to come up with anyone more deserving.
Midas is for sure one of the most unfortunate players. Extremely skilled but he happened to coincide with Savior destroying everyone.
Leta never would've been able to make a deep run in an individual league - as evidenced by the fact that he has never done so. He was good at doing a few specific things, such as gimmicky 2port Wraith builds in maps that favored cheesy TvZ, but he would've been picked apart in a series by any competent individual league player of any race.
It's a stretch to say he's just a bit better than Really, but he's certainly no contender.
Do we really even need a Zerg list? A single name on it in big bold letters would suffice and we can go home >_>
On November 18 2014 10:46 Crunchums wrote: To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
On November 18 2014 09:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: I hate Light but this list is pretty objective. Hard to come up with anyone more deserving.
Midas is for sure one of the most unfortunate players. Extremely skilled but he happened to coincide with Savior destroying everyone.
Leta never would've been able to make a deep run in an individual league - as evidenced by the fact that he has never done so. He was good at doing a few specific things, such as gimmicky 2port Wraith builds in maps that favored cheesy TvZ, but he would've been picked apart in a series by any competent individual league player of any race.
It's a stretch to say he's just a bit better than Really, but he's certainly no contender.
Do we really even need a Zerg list? A single name on it in big bold letters would suffice and we can go home >_>
poor Really got quite the spanking in this thread but i'm gonna say like one fellow mentioned, he probably deserves to be somewhere in the top 10 at least
On November 18 2014 14:28 figq wrote: poor Really got quite the spanking in this thread but i'm gonna say like one fellow mentioned, he probably deserves to be somewhere in the top 10 at least
That's at least 15 players who were more relevant than Really was, plus the long list of Terran OSL/MSL winners, and I'm probably forgetting a bunch too.
On November 18 2014 10:46 Crunchums wrote: To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
I mean, there's a super long list of Terran MSL/OSL winners, plus five people here. When you're already reaching down 15+ slots, can you still be considered A-class lol.
S class is like the Boxer/Nada/oov/Flash etc. fantasy is like an A-class Terran. Are you really telling me Leta is one level below Flash and on par with fantasy?
On November 18 2014 10:46 Crunchums wrote: To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
I mean, there's a super long list of Terran MSL/OSL winners, plus five people here. When you're already reaching down 15+ slots, can you still be considered A-class lol.
of course you can. that list covers the entire history of BW.
S class is like the Boxer/Nada/oov/Flash etc. fantasy is like an A-class Terran. Are you really telling me Leta is one level below Flash and on par with fantasy?
On November 18 2014 15:31 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On November 18 2014 10:46 Crunchums wrote: To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
I mean, there's a super long list of Terran MSL/OSL winners, plus five people here. When you're already reaching down 15+ slots, can you still be considered A-class lol.
of course you can. that list covers the entire history of BW.
S class is like the Boxer/Nada/oov/Flash etc. fantasy is like an A-class Terran. Are you really telling me Leta is one level below Flash and on par with fantasy?
On November 18 2014 15:31 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On November 18 2014 10:46 Crunchums wrote: To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
I mean, there's a super long list of Terran MSL/OSL winners, plus five people here. When you're already reaching down 15+ slots, can you still be considered A-class lol.
of course you can. that list covers the entire history of BW.
S class is like the Boxer/Nada/oov/Flash etc. fantasy is like an A-class Terran. Are you really telling me Leta is one level below Flash and on par with fantasy?
it's a spectrum. fantasy is A+ and Leta is A
Oov/Boxer/Flash = S+ Fantasy = S Leta = like B.
hahahaha
this would have been accurate in 2007 when Leta was garbage
On November 17 2014 09:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: As an aside, don't use apostrophes for plural. It should be Best Terrans To Never Win, not Best Terran's. because it's not possessive or a contraction <3
^ Most important comment in this thread so far. I know that because I pressed Control+F and searched for "apost" and this was the only comment to be highlighted in five pages.
On November 18 2014 21:59 c3rberUs wrote: IMO, FantaSy transformed into S-class near the end of Brood War. Remember how he beat FlaSh in the proleague finals?
its arguable but I'm on the side that believes you are true, fantasy deserved to be called S class by the end of BW.
On November 18 2014 21:59 c3rberUs wrote: IMO, FantaSy transformed into S-class near the end of Brood War. Remember how he beat FlaSh in the proleague finals?
its arguable but I'm on the side that believes you are true, fantasy deserved to be called S class by the end of BW.
Yeah, it's totally argueable. From what I remember he had a win ratio equal or even slightly better than Flash. He "just" did bad in the major leagues. He was still a Pro League monster nonetheless.
What's argueable to me is whether or not Bisu could still be counted as S Class player towards the end of competitive KeSPA (!) BW. Imo he slumped compared to what he was capable of doing earlier in his career and compared to the strongest players nowhere close to making it far in OSL/MSL. He would've not won any OSL obviously, cause Bisu.
You can't drop down from S-class, but if you could, Flash was less of an S-class player than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW.
And it shouldn't be up for debate whether Fantasy was an S-class player. He wasn't a centralizing figure like Flash or Jaedong but he was was the favorite in almost every game he played and made deep runs in many individual leagues. A-class is more like the twin towers of HERO, Midas, or Leta. Solid players that stopped short of domination.
Leta was no bonjwa, but he was a stronger AND a more dominant player in his day than many starleague medalists. Putting Hwasin, Goodfriend or Berserker ahead of him is nothing short of oblivious.
fantasy is a bad and overrated player that lived off the builds tailored by oov, and got the silvers and gold by strategical efforts not his own (mechanically he is good though i must admit; without the tutalage of oov he would amount to the level of really or puma, who had good mechanics but were predictable, unversatile practice partners who couldn't adapt to change, hailed and hyped to be top 5 terrans by artosis but failed when they joined the a-teams of their teams; artosis also claimed leta was a bad player nowhere near top 5 iirc). The last 2 silvers in tving and jin air osl that he obtained without oov were a result of the transition to SC2 where no one good practiced BW anymore and flash injured his wrist, the only reason he got to the finals.
The evidence which can support this statement is that he never amounted to anything in sc2, cuz he had no OOV to handfeed him builds and he got no handicaps via lack of good players or players with injuries in his matches
Touché to the last two posts. I thought I was trolling pretty well, but the both of you had really good replies to that. Can we now discuss how the term Bonjwa opresses feminists?
On November 19 2014 01:27 saltywet wrote: fantasy is a bad and overrated player that lived off the builds tailored by oov, and got the silvers and gold by strategical efforts not his own (mechanically he is good though i must admit; without the tutalage of oov he would amount to the level of really or puma, who had good mechanics but were predictable, unversatile practice partners who couldn't adapt to change, hailed and hyped to be top 5 terrans by artosis but failed when they joined the a-teams of their teams; artosis also claimed leta was a bad player nowhere near top 5 iirc). The last 2 silvers in tving and jin air osl that he obtained without oov were a result of the transition to SC2 where no one good practiced BW anymore and flash injured his wrist, the only reason he got to the finals.
The evidence which can support this statement is that he never amounted to anything in sc2, cuz he had no OOV to handfeed him builds and he got no handicaps via lack of good players or players with injuries in his matches
The bolded part is an awful argument. This is like saying (drugs aside) Lance Armstrong wasn't a very good cyclist because he never captured mountain bike titles and when he tried running could only run a 2:46 marathon. Completely unrelated factors. It's so bad in fact it's difficult to tell if this is serious or trolling.
More importantly, Fantasy was a player who wasn't exactly known for mechanics to begin with, and for the longest time was noted for having relatively poor bio v Z as a consequence of said weaker mechanics. With that in mind the premise of your argument doesn't even make sense. You can say oov helped Fantasy with builds and doing well in individual leagues but Fantasy was also an extremely strong PL player, which has very little to do with builds, especially in Winners league format where you can't even have a prepared build.
Not to mention Fantasy has, iirc, the second best win ratio of any terran at 63% overall, and a 65% win ratio in TvP, the matchup known for giving terran hell until about 2013. Statistics aren't everything but there is no way on earth a "bad" player waltzs into the second highest winning percentage of all time for his race. That alone tells you he is solid A class. Whether that denotes true top tier S class qualifications is a legitimate debate, but yours is an argument that bases nothing on the actual events of what happened.
You're argument can be summed up as 'Fantasy was a bad player cause I said for arbitrary reasons we should just not count his SL victories as 'legitmate' wins, and of course we can just ignore his absurd win ratios because why not".
On an unrelated note, I'm going about 60/40 chance I'm getting trolled here. If so, that's a respectable effort.
On November 19 2014 02:15 IntoTheheart wrote: I still don't know how I feel about Iris being second to Midas.
Midas is probably the second best player to never win a tournament. The gap between Midas and Iris is massive. Midas just had the misfortune of sharing an era with one of the most dominant players in the history of the game ~_~
On November 19 2014 01:17 Mirabel_ wrote:
Leta was no bonjwa, but he was a stronger AND a more dominant player in his day than many starleague medalists. Putting Hwasin, Goodfriend or Berserker ahead of him is nothing short of oblivious.
I mean this is just objectively wrong so whatever.
On November 18 2014 15:31 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On November 18 2014 10:46 Crunchums wrote: To be clear - I'm fine with him not being on this list (he's probably #6). But it tilts me to see people ignorantly trashing my favorite player. You want to rag on Leta's meh-TvP? Fine. You want to say his TvZ wasn't strong enough to compete with Jaedong? Sure. But if you think he was anything less than an A-class Terran then you are wrong.
I mean, there's a super long list of Terran MSL/OSL winners, plus five people here. When you're already reaching down 15+ slots, can you still be considered A-class lol.
of course you can. that list covers the entire history of BW.
S class is like the Boxer/Nada/oov/Flash etc. fantasy is like an A-class Terran. Are you really telling me Leta is one level below Flash and on par with fantasy?
it's a spectrum. fantasy is A+ and Leta is A
Meh, then we're just splitting hairs over boundaries. By your spectrum the worst A-team players are still like B-, which seems kinda silly.
On November 18 2014 15:31 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: plus the long list of Terran OSL/MSL winners
Discussion is about best terrans who never won a major.
Way to cherry pick a tiny phrase from to post to completely distort the argument. Did you miss the part where I listed 10+ players who never won a tournament in addition to the top 5 in the OP?
Still I remember GGplay vs Iris Daum finals when I was working @ USA for 6 months. It was super late and series started horrible (obvious zerg bias) 1-0. So I decided and watched next game and 2-0. Third game being Hitchhiker I gave up hope, that was quick 3-0 and went to sleep. Woke up and opened TL.net... 2-3 for GGplay after epic 3rd and 5th game. GGplay never succeeded "anything" after that and Iris tried to win that one title but no luck.
On November 18 2014 15:31 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: S class is like the Boxer/Nada/oov/Flash etc. fantasy is like an A-class Terran. Are you really telling me Leta is one level below Flash and on par with fantasy?
it's a spectrum. fantasy is A+ and Leta is A
Meh, then we're just splitting hairs over boundaries. By your spectrum the worst A-team players are still like B-, which seems kinda silly.
The worst A-team players were C-F. B is like Roro or something
this is the only thing I can ever think of when I see GoodFriend
Agreed with many that Leta, Hwasin, and TheMarine could be on this list.
On November 19 2014 01:17 Mirabel_ wrote: You can't drop down from S-class, but if you could, Flash was less of an S-class player than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW.
And it shouldn't be up for debate whether Fantasy was an S-class player. He wasn't a centralizing figure like Flash or Jaedong but he was was the favorite in almost every game he played and made deep runs in many individual leagues. A-class is more like the twin towers of HERO, Midas, or Leta. Solid players that stopped short of domination.
Leta was no bonjwa, but he was a stronger AND a more dominant player in his day than many starleague medalists. Putting Hwasin, Goodfriend or Berserker ahead of him is nothing short of oblivious.
The definitions I work off for the player classes are as follows. I order it something like fighting game tiers.
S-class players are the kings of kings, the transcenders. Everyone in this class is a threat to everyone else, and they are favored over everyone else below them. If one of these players is the clear favorite to win over every other S-class player, they are S+ (Flash). Throughout Starcraft's history, it's been exceedingly rare for there to be more than two players concurrently exhibiting transcendental play. All the bonjwa candidates were S-class players.
A-class players are the solid players - everyone here has a shot at beating an S-class players in a Bo#, but is not particularly favored. Iris and Goodfriend are good examples of A-class players. Proleague snipers with an undeniable S-class matchup (like Light) belong here as well.
B-class players are those who can compete with the A-class but have severe limitations against the S-class. This tier also includes inconsistent flashes in the pan, and gimmicky players that have a niche transcending their skill levels. Classic and UpMaGiC were good examples of this.
C-class players have no hope of winning a series off the S-class players and would require extreme luck and preperation to beat A-class players. By.Barracks and a certain Woongjin Terran go here.
F-class is the 99%.
All the players that GTR and I listed are A-class players. Fantasy is S-class, and I think people are confused about that fact because Flash made all the S-classes of that era look bad.
I mean this is just objectively wrong so whatever.
I am of an open mind, but if you hope to change it I'll need some effort.
I mean this is just objectively wrong so whatever.
I am of an open mind, but if you hope to change it I'll need some effort.
Ultimately, the end-all-be-all of being able to win a Starleague is strong series play. The lower spots on the list of "best players that didn't win a Starleague" will have players that were PL superstars that could never close a Bo5, but ultimately the players who could show strong BoX play, but were just not able to go the distance against the stars of their day are going to be be closer to the top than those who could take PL wins from those stars but looked poor when they had the chance to show us an individual league series.
Leta didn't "stop short of domination". As a player who literally never showed convincing series play, he didn't even come close.
Then explain to me how Flash was less than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW. I hope you stop with the TVing OSL finals, cause everything after was just bullshit (actually, no idea what happened there, it was too painful to watch). Flash ended with a 3rd/4th place in the last OSL (without any Bisu present) and with a way better win/loss ratio in PL. If you refer to that _one_ game he won against Flash by using a designed build - dunno. Bisu fanbois everywhere >_>
On November 18 2014 18:34 icystorage wrote: I consider it more like Leta's TvT - S-Class (can stand toe-to-toe with the top TvTers) TvP - fucking garbage seriously TvT - A (give or take)
You gotta also consider that he had a team composed mostly of match-fixers.
just my 2c tho!
Ok. Light: TvT - A (give or take) TvP - F---- worst TvP player ever? TvZ - S-class
I mean this is just objectively wrong so whatever.
I am of an open mind, but if you hope to change it I'll need some effort.
Ultimately, the end-all-be-all of being able to win a Starleague is strong series play. The lower spots on the list of "best players that didn't win a Starleague" will have players that were PL superstars that could never close a Bo5, but ultimately the players who could show strong BoX play, but were just not able to go the distance against the stars of their day are going to be be closer to the top than those who could take PL wins from those stars but looked poor when they had the chance to show us an individual league series.
Leta didn't "stop short of domination". As a player who literally never showed convincing series play, he didn't even come close.
You know, I wasn't even considering individual versus proleague play. It's a very valid point that Leta was weaker in BoX, although frankly his competition was way further from the pack than Iris's or Goodfriend's. As the ace for sparkyz, his stats in proleague weren't even as good. GTR made clear with TheMarine that if someone was overshadowed hard enough they weren't relevant to this list, but how can you compete with Flash and Fanta?
Great list. I remember Iris in his prime and his Bo5 wins against Savior was awesome. Overall, his TvZ was really fun to watch even when he lost. I remember the game vs Jaedong where Jaedong introduced stacking 2 groups of mutalisk as 1 and proceeded to pummel Iris to death in the playoffs for all kill format
On November 19 2014 01:27 saltywet wrote: fantasy is a bad and overrated player that lived off the builds tailored by oov, and got the silvers and gold by strategical efforts not his own (mechanically he is good though i must admit; without the tutalage of oov he would amount to the level of really or puma, who had good mechanics but were predictable, unversatile practice partners who couldn't adapt to change, hailed and hyped to be top 5 terrans by artosis but failed when they joined the a-teams of their teams; artosis also claimed leta was a bad player nowhere near top 5 iirc). The last 2 silvers in tving and jin air osl that he obtained without oov were a result of the transition to SC2 where no one good practiced BW anymore and flash injured his wrist, the only reason he got to the finals.
The evidence which can support this statement is that he never amounted to anything in sc2, cuz he had no OOV to handfeed him builds and he got no handicaps via lack of good players or players with injuries in his matches
HAHAHAHA! The best compilation of butthurt and poor excuses I've ever read.
It's hard to tell between Midas and Iris really. As i saw the thread, i first thought about Iris, because he came really close. Like really really close. He also did a final in Gom TV. Midas on the other side never played a single final.
But it's true that Midas was probably the best player of his time, along with Savior, for a moment. I don't think one can say that about Iris. They're pretty much tied for 1st place to me.
I think TheMarine could get the 5th spot instead of Sea, as much as i like Sea, just like Leta he couldn't transfer his PL powers to individual league. TheMarine was the serious deal back then. Also, he was good at tvp.
People underlook Light too much. He was a great player, actually capable of fighting with the best of the pack on regular basis. It's funny that invisible terran was actually considered good at tvp at first... I remember liquibetting on him against Bisu when the met during the infamous Gom MSL. I thought it was his time to shine, he had a good opportunity, going against a young teammate not so good at pvt... haha, i'm not so good at predicting BW
On November 19 2014 01:27 saltywet wrote: fantasy is a bad and overrated player that lived off the builds tailored by oov, and got the silvers and gold by strategical efforts not his own (mechanically he is good though i must admit; without the tutalage of oov he would amount to the level of really or puma, who had good mechanics but were predictable, unversatile practice partners who couldn't adapt to change, hailed and hyped to be top 5 terrans by artosis but failed when they joined the a-teams of their teams; artosis also claimed leta was a bad player nowhere near top 5 iirc). The last 2 silvers in tving and jin air osl that he obtained without oov were a result of the transition to SC2 where no one good practiced BW anymore and flash injured his wrist, the only reason he got to the finals.
The evidence which can support this statement is that he never amounted to anything in sc2, cuz he had no OOV to handfeed him builds and he got no handicaps via lack of good players or players with injuries in his matches
You realise Flash was given builds too right? That's why the position of coach on the team exists. Every team has/had them and all of them feed builds down to their players.
Very few people could take oovs builds and make them work like Fantasy did. The SKT terrans all used them but Fantasy was the one who made them shine.
Not only that. His dependence of Ovv was overblown out of proportions. Ovv actually invented so-called fantasy build mainly to help Fantasy to play against Zergs. Also bunker rush build used aganst JD was invented by Boxer, not Oov. Fantasy himself experimented with various valkonic builds and is one of the crucial innovators in late TvZ mech switch. Not only that, he started to use SV in TvT before anyone else.
On November 19 2014 01:17 Mirabel_ wrote: You can't drop down from S-class, but if you could, Flash was less of an S-class player than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW.
Just no. Fantasy overtook Flash during the last 4 months or so of BW but Flash was still the undisputed second best player unless you include Bisu's 'success' in Hybrid proleague (probably should've focused a bit harder on the sc2). Flash was 73% for 2012 (legit pro BW ended with the SKT vs KT final).
A Bo1 loss to Bisu on a broken map doesn't change anything.
Imo Fantasy was not excellent in sc2 because his strongest trait from BW(harassment) doesn't count for much in sc2, where its super easy for other races to deflect drops (muh queen, muh transfuse, muh mamaship, muh nexus cannon etc.) as long as they are have a hint its coming.
And even if its successful its easier to recover from it(larva mechanic) or one lost too many units during the drop and hence outright die to a quick counter a-move deathball.
without being able to bank on his best strength to make up for his lack of macro, fantasy is about as good as a typical Korean terran in sc2.
(Hence I predict fantasy won't amount to anything in sc2, pls start streaming BW on afreeca kthxbai)
Forge FE is old old old, I think Nal-Ra was the first one to really develop and use it but that was before I started watching BW, but as kona's link shows Daezang was the first one to use FFE-> sair/DT in a professional game.
On November 19 2014 01:17 Mirabel_ wrote: You can't drop down from S-class, but if you could, Flash was less of an S-class player than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW.
By that logic Garimto was S class in 2007, even though he couldnt win a game to save his life. Because five years before that he was S class.
On November 19 2014 07:10 GeckoXp wrote: Then explain to me how Flash was less than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW. I hope you stop with the TVing OSL finals, cause everything after was just bullshit (actually, no idea what happened there, it was too painful to watch). Flash ended with a 3rd/4th place in the last OSL (without any Bisu present) and with a way better win/loss ratio in PL. If you refer to that _one_ game he won against Flash by using a designed build - dunno. Bisu fanbois everywhere >_>
I pretty much consider everything after the start of the hybrid proleague to be of very little value. That obviously includes the individual leagues as well.
I still rest comfortably with the fact that Jangbi had held down "longest time without losing a single BW individual league" for longer than any of the bonjwas had.
On November 20 2014 04:46 ]343[ wrote: did Daezang invent Forge FE, or Forge FE -> sair/dt? (I can never tell what anyone means by the "Bisu Build" after all that Combat-Ex nonsense )
Forge FE is as old as natural expansions are, but I don't think it became standard until Bisu.
On November 20 2014 04:46 ]343[ wrote: did Daezang invent Forge FE, or Forge FE -> sair/dt? (I can never tell what anyone means by the "Bisu Build" after all that Combat-Ex nonsense )
Forge FE is as old as natural expansions are, but I don't think it became standard until Bisu.
No, its really not. Forge FE didnt start getting used until around...2002 or 2003, and even then it was basically always an opening to sair reaver.
On November 20 2014 04:46 ]343[ wrote: did Daezang invent Forge FE, or Forge FE -> sair/dt? (I can never tell what anyone means by the "Bisu Build" after all that Combat-Ex nonsense )
Forge FE is as old as natural expansions are, but I don't think it became standard until Bisu.
No, its really not. Forge FE didnt start getting used until around...2002 or 2003, and even then it was basically always an opening to sair reaver.
Also on most old maps toss just can't go forge FE with only 1 or 2 cannon.
On November 19 2014 07:10 GeckoXp wrote: Then explain to me how Flash was less than Bisu towards the end of KeSPA BW. I hope you stop with the TVing OSL finals, cause everything after was just bullshit (actually, no idea what happened there, it was too painful to watch). Flash ended with a 3rd/4th place in the last OSL (without any Bisu present) and with a way better win/loss ratio in PL. If you refer to that _one_ game he won against Flash by using a designed build - dunno. Bisu fanbois everywhere >_>
The only thing that is more impressive about Bisu's accomplishment than flash's, is the fact that he did it as a protoss.
Flash "blends in" (most winning player ever blending in, lol) by being terran so by that he's being Nada, Boxer and Oov
On November 18 2014 14:28 figq wrote: poor Really got quite the spanking in this thread but i'm gonna say like one fellow mentioned, he probably deserves to be somewhere in the top 10 at least
That's at least 15 players who were more relevant than Really was, plus the long list of Terran OSL/MSL winners, and I'm probably forgetting a bunch too.
Wat. I don't really remember Really too well, but I remember Baby not being amazing. Canata I remember as being mediocre at best, but I may just be misremembering.
I also don't remember too much of Skyhigh, but I agree that the rest of your list is above Really (again who I don't remember!).
Also, as big a fan as Leta as I am the only person I'd take off the list for him is GoodFriend, but that's literally because the only thing I can think of that he accomplished was that Ever OSL. He probably has more and thus is more deserving of Leta, who really was just a great player on an atrocious team for most of his career (also don't think Leta ever accomplished shit in an OSL/MSL anyway, which is kind've a big deal for this category imo).
Edit: I'd also say Anytime is up there on "worst players to win a major." Not that he was bad, just that he was probably the worst P to win an OSL or MSL.
it's difficult to look back and use a sharpie to circle just one player. of course some were closer than others, but the way you want to qualify 'the best terran..' in this discussion is highlighted by the fact that they couldn't win an msl/osl.
instead i'll start by laying out which players impressed me the most and left an impression even though they ended up losing in those matches which would have crowned them or gotten them closer to their first title.
midas solid player. had some great chances towards the end of 2005-2006 when he was easily a top8 contender. left an era of fans and hopes alive by staying active towards the end of 2009-2010.
upmagic had a rock solid zvt and was above average in the other matchups. iirc, he had a more difficult time in one of the two remaining matchups which would cause him to drop out of tournaments pre-ro8 while he was playing at his strongest. was very imaginative and had cryptic play for a short amount of time, which left me to see him as the terran nal_ra.
iris who could forget this man's 2-0 over ggplay before losing in 3 straight sets to immaculate (and hard to top, to this day) defense plays. iris was a very strong overall player leading up to this point in his career. his style was very apparent and difficult to play against leading him to change his ID to what fans had given him for a nickname. out of anyone, i believe iris is the terran who literally came the closest to a major (without having won one beforehand), and fell just short.
sea had the ability and star sense to, but could not break the ro16 to ro8 threshold to claim a title. imo, lacked just a bit of polish to be able to come close to a starleague championship during the middle portion of his career.
hwasin was extremely strong in individual leagues for a short stint in his career. lost 2-3 to savior in a semifinals where his next opponent would have been bisu, had he won instead.
light though not as strong during the majority of his career as would be indicated by his generic looks and nickname (invisible terran) i actually had fond memories of him coming oh-so-close to beating jaedong in a semifinals. believe it or not, i heavily favored light going into that one. his TvZ record was off the charts at the time.
goodfriend as much as you guys give this guy flak, seriously, he was the most consistent ro8er. top 4 finisher in multiple majors. he lost to july in a finals 2-3 in and around 2005 where july was at his peak in terms of domination.
out of everyone out there, i still have to give it to goodfriend. he may not be memorable to you guys, but i saw this guy leading up the finals more times than you can count. and as the amateur scene was bustling and new faces came out to reap the benefits of the matured practice regime and methods which took roots in the olden days (hello flash, jaedong, stork), competition was stiffer, and you needed to be extremely strong with no bias in your style to be able to compete with every single big boy that was seeded or was qualified to play against you through a stiff wildcard/dual-tournament. that is what it meant to be the best for any lengthened timeframe. each terran i listed above made a big impression on me, but ultimately could not finish the deed. i can never say they deserved the starleague, because preparation or conditions said otherwise. some players who were in the same boat matured and eventually claimed their title, if only their one and only.
Really, I think I would have put Sea first, he always was an Ace player and top terran all his career, never managed to win anything. Midas had his moment, but decline much more than Sea.
On January 04 2015 23:02 iFU.pauline wrote: Really, I think I would have put Sea first, he always was an Ace player and top terran all his career, never managed to win anything. Midas had his moment, but decline much more than Sea.
Sea suffers the same problem as Leta of not showing convincing BoX play, and therefore not making the cut for the top half of the list. He edges out Leta because of TL's eternal love affair with Sea.
At the end of the day, being able to manage both the pressures of series play is a requirement for being considered one of the best. The top players on the list cemented their places by being some of the best individual league players of their time, edged out by others who were just that much better. Even Light, who some find to be a contentious choice on this list, proved himself capable of impressive series play at times, such as his narrow 2-3 against Jaedong in Bigfile MSL.
EPT
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