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BW General Discussion - Page 139

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LetaBot
Profile Blog Joined June 2014
Netherlands557 Posts
April 15 2016 16:36 GMT
#2761
Does anybody know what exactly this video below is about and what the people in the comment section are saying?
Google translate gives me something about AlphaGo and Flash ( Lee Young Ho )





apparently my BWAPI spider mine trick video is in there as well.
If you cannot win with 100 apm, win with 100 cpm.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66363 Posts
April 15 2016 19:28 GMT
#2762
are the leagues ever going to change their map pool? was recently watching kim carry's casted game and was so glad to see troy there...
POGGERS
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES51077 Posts
April 15 2016 20:05 GMT
#2763
On April 16 2016 04:28 konadora wrote:
are the leagues ever going to change their map pool? was recently watching kim carry's casted game and was so glad to see troy there...


both players and fans are quite divided on using new or different maps from what I gathered.

Kim carry did some map tests during the last week of Feb-first week of march. Involving players like mind, best ZerO, sharp, guemchi and larva, but he never uploaded the vods on YouTube.
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66363 Posts
April 16 2016 06:52 GMT
#2764
man, that sucks. i have iterated time and time again that what made starcraft great was the evolution of strategies that came with the changes and evolution of maps... and after a while (post-sc2), i felt the games were quite stagnant. there's only so many games you can watch on fighting spirit and circuit breaker...
POGGERS
pbu
Profile Joined April 2016
1 Post
April 18 2016 02:05 GMT
#2765
are there team leagues or low level tourneys on tl anymore?
BLinD-RawR
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
ALLEYCAT BLUES51077 Posts
April 18 2016 02:10 GMT
#2766
On April 18 2016 11:05 pbu wrote:
are there team leagues or low level tourneys on tl anymore?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/497918-r-and-s-amateur-teamleague

it just recently ended.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/504007-iccup-nation-league-esbp

currently running, but not low level
Brood War EICWoo Jung Ho, never forget.| Twitter: @BLinDRawR
DarkNetHunter
Profile Joined October 2012
1224 Posts
April 18 2016 03:19 GMT
#2767
On April 18 2016 11:10 BLinD-RawR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2016 11:05 pbu wrote:
are there team leagues or low level tourneys on tl anymore?

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/497918-r-and-s-amateur-teamleague

it just recently ended.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/504007-iccup-nation-league-esbp

currently running, but not low level

to add to that:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-tournaments/506253-d-c-rank-man-vs-machine-teamleague

.

There will probably be another amateur league running up at some point if you're interested!

Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
April 18 2016 13:00 GMT
#2768
On April 16 2016 15:52 konadora wrote:
man, that sucks. i have iterated time and time again that what made starcraft great was the evolution of strategies that came with the changes and evolution of maps... and after a while (post-sc2), i felt the games were quite stagnant. there's only so many games you can watch on fighting spirit and circuit breaker...

Agreed on that. Some of the most interesting games post proscene came from the new maps Sonic made them play.

I'm not sure why they're so hesitant to introduce new maps when that model was proven so successful by the OSL and MSL. At least once a year, preferably every six months, maps have to change. Anything older than a year and a half can't be played again unless it has been off the shelf for awhile and there's interest around how the current meta would work on them.

I guess they can't test the maps as much as they used to be able to, but I think the stakes are a lot lower too, so they don't need to be as rigorous. StarCraft's strength over ordinary sports is unending novelty combined with fierce competition, not fierce competition alone.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10334 Posts
April 18 2016 15:54 GMT
#2769
On April 18 2016 22:00 Chef wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 16 2016 15:52 konadora wrote:
man, that sucks. i have iterated time and time again that what made starcraft great was the evolution of strategies that came with the changes and evolution of maps... and after a while (post-sc2), i felt the games were quite stagnant. there's only so many games you can watch on fighting spirit and circuit breaker...

Agreed on that. Some of the most interesting games post proscene came from the new maps Sonic made them play.

I'm not sure why they're so hesitant to introduce new maps when that model was proven so successful by the OSL and MSL. At least once a year, preferably every six months, maps have to change. Anything older than a year and a half can't be played again unless it has been off the shelf for awhile and there's interest around how the current meta would work on them.

I guess they can't test the maps as much as they used to be able to, but I think the stakes are a lot lower too, so they don't need to be as rigorous. StarCraft's strength over ordinary sports is unending novelty combined with fierce competition, not fierce competition alone.

I think the main issue is that their practice environment is different. In the past, a league would state what maps would be in use, and the teams would be forced to practice them, no questions asked. They would prepare strategies, develop timings, learn pathing and mineral efficiencies, building placement, proxy locations through hundreds of games played simultaneously by multiple top-level players.

The current practice environment in Fish contrasts greatly with this, for multiple reasons:

1. Players are playing with other ex-progamer friends, many of whom are likely to end up being your opponent in an upcoming tour.

2. Players are playing publicly with stream on to make money.

3. Players are forced to play FS and CB ad infinitum because of the Fish scene.

4. Players don't have the support of an entire team + coaching staff when analyzing new maps and creating/testing build orders and strategies. This means that even if there are new maps, we are probably more likely to see the same strategies we're familiar with being shoehorned into new maps instead of new play styles being used.

Another added and speculative point is that while we have seen some Korean map makers post on TeamLiquid recently, from what I recall most of the maps are either a. old unused maps being published, b. novelty maps like that 3v3 map, or c. not thoroughly play tested and were changed based on feedback in thread and after a little testing from the map maker, all of which suggest that there perhaps aren't that many new Korean maps that are viable or readily available in this era. I can't claim to have any authority on this matter and I am just judging from what I've seen on TeamLiquid, perhaps there are more developments elsewhere that we as a community are not aware of. However, I imagine there was some incentive for mapmakers in the past during the KeSPA era that does not exist now. That could be changed, though.

It's also possible that the desire for new maps is simply not a popular demand, possibly due to aforementioned points. I think we can all agree that FS and CB are the most balanced maps available, in no small part due to their blandness. This presents a relatively even playing fields for players of any race, or at least the most even we have now. They are well-practiced, well-known, well-understood, and therefore the chances of flukey wins and dumb decisions based on the map diminishes at the top level. This has its own appeal to viewers who on average, like the ex-pros, are more familiar with these maps than any other.

All of these factors lead me to think that the current state of Brood War is simply not conducive to new maps being introduced. I'm not necessarily arguing against it, I'm just saying that I understand why it's not happening.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Qikz
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United Kingdom12041 Posts
April 18 2016 18:57 GMT
#2770
On April 18 2016 11:05 pbu wrote:
are there team leagues or low level tourneys on tl anymore?


I was running one, but then interest died out and when I tried to spark it again not enough people posted that they wanted to play :/
FanTaSy's #1 Fan | STPL Caster/Organiser | SKT BEST KT | https://twitch.tv/stpl
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10334 Posts
April 18 2016 19:08 GMT
#2771
On April 19 2016 03:57 Qikz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2016 11:05 pbu wrote:
are there team leagues or low level tourneys on tl anymore?


I was running one, but then interest died out and when I tried to spark it again not enough people posted that they wanted to play :/

I wouldn't say that BOSL was very low rank... Lots of strong players in that one!
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
April 18 2016 21:53 GMT
#2772
On April 19 2016 00:54 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 18 2016 22:00 Chef wrote:
On April 16 2016 15:52 konadora wrote:
man, that sucks. i have iterated time and time again that what made starcraft great was the evolution of strategies that came with the changes and evolution of maps... and after a while (post-sc2), i felt the games were quite stagnant. there's only so many games you can watch on fighting spirit and circuit breaker...

Agreed on that. Some of the most interesting games post proscene came from the new maps Sonic made them play.

I'm not sure why they're so hesitant to introduce new maps when that model was proven so successful by the OSL and MSL. At least once a year, preferably every six months, maps have to change. Anything older than a year and a half can't be played again unless it has been off the shelf for awhile and there's interest around how the current meta would work on them.

I guess they can't test the maps as much as they used to be able to, but I think the stakes are a lot lower too, so they don't need to be as rigorous. StarCraft's strength over ordinary sports is unending novelty combined with fierce competition, not fierce competition alone.

I think the main issue is that their practice environment is different. In the past, a league would state what maps would be in use, and the teams would be forced to practice them, no questions asked. They would prepare strategies, develop timings, learn pathing and mineral efficiencies, building placement, proxy locations through hundreds of games played simultaneously by multiple top-level players.

The current practice environment in Fish contrasts greatly with this, for multiple reasons:

1. Players are playing with other ex-progamer friends, many of whom are likely to end up being your opponent in an upcoming tour.

2. Players are playing publicly with stream on to make money.

3. Players are forced to play FS and CB ad infinitum because of the Fish scene.

4. Players don't have the support of an entire team + coaching staff when analyzing new maps and creating/testing build orders and strategies. This means that even if there are new maps, we are probably more likely to see the same strategies we're familiar with being shoehorned into new maps instead of new play styles being used.

Another added and speculative point is that while we have seen some Korean map makers post on TeamLiquid recently, from what I recall most of the maps are either a. old unused maps being published, b. novelty maps like that 3v3 map, or c. not thoroughly play tested and were changed based on feedback in thread and after a little testing from the map maker, all of which suggest that there perhaps aren't that many new Korean maps that are viable or readily available in this era. I can't claim to have any authority on this matter and I am just judging from what I've seen on TeamLiquid, perhaps there are more developments elsewhere that we as a community are not aware of. However, I imagine there was some incentive for mapmakers in the past during the KeSPA era that does not exist now. That could be changed, though.

It's also possible that the desire for new maps is simply not a popular demand, possibly due to aforementioned points. I think we can all agree that FS and CB are the most balanced maps available, in no small part due to their blandness. This presents a relatively even playing fields for players of any race, or at least the most even we have now. They are well-practiced, well-known, well-understood, and therefore the chances of flukey wins and dumb decisions based on the map diminishes at the top level. This has its own appeal to viewers who on average, like the ex-pros, are more familiar with these maps than any other.

All of these factors lead me to think that the current state of Brood War is simply not conducive to new maps being introduced. I'm not necessarily arguing against it, I'm just saying that I understand why it's not happening.

Sorry to make you write so much, but I'm not really convinced. I believe a large niche crowd that BW attracted through the novelty of new maps is lost. There are people who don't care, it's true, and some people who might even say they like watching the same tried and true maps and the same strategies because they are more interested in the mechanical side of BW. But I think I wouldn't have even bothered watching Sonic of Kongdoo leagues if they were all FS and CB. The new maps are what pull fans like me, because I want to think about the new strategies and how players will adapt, and as much as some players might try to shoe horn familiar strats in, they're always going to put a twist on it because they know it has to be different.

I also think BW grew out of shabby practice environments, and it was never a problem then to have new maps and shake things up. Things eventually became very sophisticated, but they were originally shoe-string budget teams.

I think the bigger obstacle is getting multiple leagues to agree on a set of new maps. It can't be an isolated effort if players are going to be motivated. If the vast majority of prize pools are using older maps, it demotivates the players to think about the new ones. That's something Kongdoo and Sonic leagues sucked at. They each just did their own thing.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Ares[Effort] *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
DEMACIA6550 Posts
April 19 2016 15:06 GMT
#2773
Where do I find the latest ladder stats from Fish server? I used the Fish website before but it hasn't been updated in ages
Moderatorgold coin
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2042 Posts
April 19 2016 18:16 GMT
#2774
https://www.fishbattle.net/rank_ladder
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-04-19 19:00:56
April 19 2016 19:00 GMT
#2775
Well I saw many nice new maps being posted, but they were not added to ICCup map pool were they??
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10334 Posts
April 19 2016 21:04 GMT
#2776
On April 20 2016 04:00 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Well I saw many nice new maps being posted, but they were not added to ICCup map pool were they??

From what I recall from an earlier thread on ICCup maps, for whatever reason the ICCup ladder map pack cannot contain more than 25 maps. They chose to replace Lost Temple with Heartbeat before the start of this season IIRC.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Ares[Effort] *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
DEMACIA6550 Posts
April 20 2016 05:00 GMT
#2777
On April 20 2016 03:16 kogeT wrote:
https://www.fishbattle.net/rank_ladder

I referred to that in my post and it hasn't been updated in a long time
Moderatorgold coin
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States788 Posts
April 20 2016 06:06 GMT
#2778
On April 20 2016 06:04 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 04:00 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Well I saw many nice new maps being posted, but they were not added to ICCup map pool were they??

From what I recall from an earlier thread on ICCup maps, for whatever reason the ICCup ladder map pack cannot contain more than 25 maps. They chose to replace Lost Temple with Heartbeat before the start of this season IIRC.

The iccup map pack has 50 maps
NAKR`flying
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6999 Posts
April 20 2016 07:20 GMT
#2779
On April 20 2016 14:00 Ares[Effort] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2016 03:16 kogeT wrote:
https://www.fishbattle.net/rank_ladder

I referred to that in my post and it hasn't been updated in a long time

What do u mean? 1 hour? 30 minutes? Im rank 135 and i did it yesterday.
Ares[Effort] *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
DEMACIA6550 Posts
April 20 2016 08:21 GMT
#2780
Huh Flash still shows up as 14-5 for me but on his stream he shows higher game count
Moderatorgold coin
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