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On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
as much of an anti-SKT/fantasy fan as i am,
Bisu:
All: 371-190 (66.13%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W L W W W W L W | View Games
vT: 128-75 (63.05%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): L W W W W W W W L W | View Games
vZ: 133-53 (71.51%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W L W W W W W L W | View Games
vP: 110-62 (63.95%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W W L L W W L W | View Games
Stork:
All: 396-261 (60.27%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W L W L W W L L W | View Games
vT: 151-78 (65.94%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): L W W W L W L W L L | View Games
vZ: 124-102 (54.87%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): L W W W L W W L W L | View Games
vP: 121-81 (59.90%) | Last 10 (old -> recent): W W W L W W W W L W | View Games
only flash, jaedong and bisu have 60%+ winrate in all 3 matchups with at least one 70%+... which to me makes them the respective best of their races and far ahead of the respective second best of their races ("S" class players)
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1361 Posts
On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
Well rankings are subjective, at the end of the day Bisu was able to step up to win individual leagues more often, achieved a higher level of play at his peak, and almost single-handedly drove the PvZ metagame for long stretches of time. He also did more flashy impressive bits of play. Basically he did more of the things that people tend to remember. Whereas it's easy for people to take you for granted if you always play very well, but not inspiringly so.
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On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
When he won those MSLs he had a 60% win rate because of OSL and Proleague. and Jaedong was never bonjwa either. I would say Bisu peaked during the 6 Dragons era, around his 3rd MSL win, GOMTV Classic win and 08-09 Proleague domination.
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My personal top 3
Bisu
Jangbi
Stork
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On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
you have to consider all these factors...
1. influence to the metagame
2. player mechanics/skills
3. consistency and reliability (you only look at this bro...)
4. star appeal
5. opponents in history
6. fan/netizen bias
7. personality
8. achievements
i guess that sums up before you rank the all-time
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oh come on not stork
guy losing medals because of range................
Bisu
Anytime
Grrrr...
^.^
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On September 02 2013 22:56 pebble444 wrote:![[image loading]](http://defiler.ru/chat/smiles-hidden/stork2.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://defiler.ru/chat/smiles-hidden/stork3.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://defiler.ru/chat/smiles-hidden/stork1.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://defiler.ru/chat/smiles-hidden/stork.jpg)
my friend came back from korea last week with the same thing as the dino but a huge white bird instead
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I'd have Jangbi third. Bisu and Stork are just stronger players overall. Even though Jangbi won two OSLs in a row (an incredible feat that puts him in the company of Jaedong and the greatest human of all time - aka Boxer) his play was never as consistently good as Bisu's (definitely the best Protoss, despite his horrible OSL form) or Stork's (a ludicrously strong player and for a time the best in the world).
I feel a bit bad for Jangbi that Broodwar finished up (sortof) when it did, I feel like he could have won another OSL which would have been an incredible feat. But it's worth remembering that when Jangbi won those OSLs, the best players of the time were Flash and then Fantasy (who people always forget was incredibly dominant in the last year of Broodwar, although to be fair Flash was mostly injured or recovering in that time).
TL;DR: Jangbi the 3rd best Protoss, but winning two OSLs in a row means you cannot have him any lower (you could make the argument that he deserves to be above Stork, but you would be wrong).
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On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
Kinda surprised anyone, even Stork fans, are arguing this.
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Nal_rA over Jangbi, that is all!
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1.Stork
2.Bisu
3.Nal_Ra
4.JangBang
5.Reach
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Pokju number 1, i believe.
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Chalrenge
Bisu
Jangbi
Nal_Ra
Stork
Stork was incredibly consistent, but never really made me catch my breath like Jangbi/Nal_Ra and didn't win things like Bisu
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TLADT24920 Posts
Can someone give me the background of Nal_ra? I keep reading he revolutionized the way protoss is played but I haven't watched much of his games.
On September 02 2013 14:07 rauk wrote:
who are they going to practice with that still played bw? look at what happened to ace with no practice partners, they were the bottom feeders of proleague
i still rooted for jangbi to beat fantasux because fuck skt and i enjoyed the finals, but seriously, it wasn't nearly as competitive an OSL as it was even just a year ago
now we're trying to make assumptions that they are practicing on their own? I'm sure that some of their team members would've gladly helped them prepare and practice. We are talking about an OSL here. You know, OSL? I figure that's as high as it gets for these players.
A couple of days or week or two of hardcore BW practice isn't going to set you that far back in SCII when you consider that it's nowhere as mechanical a game as BW was so you can still talk strategy with other members of the team that are practicing it while helping your teammates with BW practice.
I just don't think it's right that Jangbi's OSL wins are being taken as 'everyone was busy with SCII, no one really cared so it was just his opponent not practicing" or to say it another way, a farce. I hope you're only talking about OSL 2012 because 2011, not sure if they were even practicing SCII at the time.
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10387 Posts
lmao chalrenge, I remember when he totally mindfucked Bisu in a PL playoffs
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On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote:
easily...
1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era)
2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era)
3. stork (in the name of consistency)
4. reach (old school aura and star power)
5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below...
obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist...
most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts...
This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there.
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On September 03 2013 07:04 BigFan wrote:Can someone give me the background of Nal_ra? I keep reading he revolutionized the way protoss is played but I haven't watched much of his games. Show nested quote +On September 02 2013 14:07 rauk wrote:
who are they going to practice with that still played bw? look at what happened to ace with no practice partners, they were the bottom feeders of proleague
i still rooted for jangbi to beat fantasux because fuck skt and i enjoyed the finals, but seriously, it wasn't nearly as competitive an OSL as it was even just a year ago now we're trying to make assumptions that they are practicing on their own? I'm sure that some of their team members would've gladly helped them prepare and practice. We are talking about an OSL here. You know, OSL? I figure that's as high as it gets for these players. A couple of days or week or two of hardcore BW practice isn't going to set you that far back in SCII when you consider that it's nowhere as mechanical a game as BW was so you can still talk strategy with other members of the team that are practicing it while helping your teammates with BW practice. I just don't think it's right that Jangbi's OSL wins are being taken as 'everyone was busy with SCII, no one really cared so it was just his opponent not practicing" or to say it another way, a farce. I hope you're only talking about OSL 2012 because 2011, not sure if they were even practicing SCII at the time.
actually samsung was the first team that started tryharding sc2, so they were practicing sc2 in 2011. it doesn't matter how much simpler sc2 is than bw, the point is that jangbi would have to be splitting his time between two different games. his practice partners have zero investment in bw besides wanting to see jangbi win, because sc2 is their best opportunity to restart and have better success than they did in bw. it's just not as competitive an environment as it was when everyone was focused on bw
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 03 2013 09:04 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:04 BigFan wrote:Can someone give me the background of Nal_ra? I keep reading he revolutionized the way protoss is played but I haven't watched much of his games. On September 02 2013 14:07 rauk wrote:
who are they going to practice with that still played bw? look at what happened to ace with no practice partners, they were the bottom feeders of proleague
i still rooted for jangbi to beat fantasux because fuck skt and i enjoyed the finals, but seriously, it wasn't nearly as competitive an OSL as it was even just a year ago now we're trying to make assumptions that they are practicing on their own? I'm sure that some of their team members would've gladly helped them prepare and practice. We are talking about an OSL here. You know, OSL? I figure that's as high as it gets for these players. A couple of days or week or two of hardcore BW practice isn't going to set you that far back in SCII when you consider that it's nowhere as mechanical a game as BW was so you can still talk strategy with other members of the team that are practicing it while helping your teammates with BW practice. I just don't think it's right that Jangbi's OSL wins are being taken as 'everyone was busy with SCII, no one really cared so it was just his opponent not practicing" or to say it another way, a farce. I hope you're only talking about OSL 2012 because 2011, not sure if they were even practicing SCII at the time. actually samsung was the first team that started tryharding sc2, so they were practicing sc2 in 2011. it doesn't matter how much simpler sc2 is than bw, the point is that jangbi would have to be splitting his time between two different games. his practice partners have zero investment in bw besides wanting to see jangbi win, because sc2 is their best opportunity to restart and have better success than they did in bw. it's just not as competitive an environment as it was when everyone was focused on bw
but you're still speculating that those in the OSL are focusing just as much on SCII as BW. If anything, this can show that Jangbi won OSL even when he was focusing on both games(and opponents on BW for the most part). This assumes they started looking into SCII after OSL finished. Honestly though, while you make a good point, I still don't feel that the point is fully valid. I'm watching OSL 2011 right now. The games there, some of them are right down to the wire. You can just tell that the players are giving it their all and in some cases, tehy have builds ready and it's all thought out and such. I haven't seen many games where I was left speechless at some obvious lack of practice mistakes aside from moving instead of a-moving by Hyuk lol
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look, which is more competitive: a league where everyone is playing 100% broodwar, or a league where a couple are playing 90% broodwar, most people are playing sc2, some people are playing both to help the few bw players practice?
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EPT
