Stork has always been the most consistently good, and nal_ra the most varied I think. Bisu never was that innovative (even Kingdom said BeSt thought up better strategies during an interview when he was coach at SKT), and the Bisu-build was just a small variation by one invented by Daezang. Frequent slumping and absolutely terrible OSL-record as well. Jangbi was a monster from time to time, but his mega-slump drags him down. Reach, Anytime and BeSt are probably interchangable, though I think BeSt probably had most potential. Reach is more manly though.
On September 03 2013 10:21 rauk wrote: look, which is more competitive: a league where everyone is playing 100% broodwar, or a league where a couple are playing 90% broodwar, most people are playing sc2, some people are playing both to help the few bw players practice?
I don't disagree with you. 100% BW league is obviously better than 90% BW etc... but you're still speculating just how much SCII was being played by the teams. We have interviews with ZerO saying that his team wouldn't even let him touch PL and wanted him to focus solely on BW because they wanted him to win OSL so we know that some opponent's mindset was only BW. Why is it hard to believe that at least from RO8 onwards(I know we talk general, just being specific here), all of Jangbi's opponents were likely focusing on BW and leaving SCII to the side till after they win(or lose)? My point is that just because players were also playing some SCII, it doesn't mean that the games' level were a lot lower from previous OSLs. These players have been playing games for 5+ years in most cases so they've played the same maps, played the same BOs etc... over and over again. Do you really think that playing just a bit less BW and a bit of SCII instead will really drop the level of the games that much? If yes, I still disagree lol. Anyways, I don't feel we're going to agree on this lol.
Disagree. Big things were happening in BW during 2012. Fantasy in particular was playing some of the greatest TvT ive ever seen. He was constantly floating 4 digits in resources vs Flash. Smashed him 3 - 0 by allocating the majority of his apm to tactical troop positioning and movement as opposed to economy management. Shit was blowing my mind he was down on bases, down on supply but taking every single engagement.
On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote: easily... 1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era) 2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era) 3. stork (in the name of consistency) 4. reach (old school aura and star power) 5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below... obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist... most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts...
This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there.
you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now... there was lots of love and dramas on the game... personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era...
but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game... a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU... not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls) the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male) i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics) while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era... this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR....
what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest... meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best... therefore making bias perception...
take this for example... reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001 and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010) I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi.... AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...
As for the BEST TERRAN of all time... overall there is NO SUCH sole #1... BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH... the ranking would be based on netizen bias...
For PROTOSS all time... BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that...
ZERG?? SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way... #3 would definetly be YELLOW
i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR...
therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself...
On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote: take this for example... reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001 and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010) I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi.... AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...
Sure let's forget about the only protoss to win back to back OSLs and the second to ever win more than one OSL. Why not it's not like that's an accomplishment worth remembering.
On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote: easily... 1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era) 2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era) 3. stork (in the name of consistency) 4. reach (old school aura and star power) 5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below... obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist... most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts...
This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there.
you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now... there was lots of love and dramas on the game... personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era...
but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game... a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU... not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls) the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male) i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics) while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era... this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR....
what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest... meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best... therefore making bias perception...
take this for example... reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001 and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010) I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi.... AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...
As for the BEST TERRAN of all time... overall there is NO SUCH sole #1... BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH... the ranking would be based on netizen bias...
For PROTOSS all time... BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that...
ZERG?? SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way... #3 would definetly be YELLOW
i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR...
therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself...
Despite the popular opinion, I personally never considered Bisu as a player that overwhelmingly outshone Stork in the overall picture. If I were really into that sort of thing, I could probably make a pretty solid case that Stork was the greater player out of the two. There's not much between the two once you take out all the media related hype that surrounds Bisu, and start to really focus more on substance over style. Of course, Bisu will forever be associated with "changing the protoss race", which he did to a great degree, but really, if we're to go onto that subject, we should start lauding the likes of Pusan. Credits where its due, but sometimes what Bisu has done really catches on to the imaginations of his loyal fans, and it starts to shadow the actual player that Bisu was.
As for the zerg race, sAviOr is overrated like Bisu is to a certain degree (both are tremendous players, no doubt, but their legacy is sugar-coated due to the dramatic nature of their careers), whereas players such as July, who in my opinion is criminally underrated due to various circumstances, gets ignored in these kind of discussions. People always think of sAviOr that "saved" the zerg race from imbalance, when really, much of that was massively inflamed due to media hype. Definately one of the greatest zerg players ever, but really, his legacy gets blown out of proportion at times due to how easily it is to manipulate his career into a provacative story full of drama, twists and turns, and the ultimate betrayal at the end.
On September 03 2013 12:28 ShadeR wrote: Disagree. Big things were happening in BW during 2012. Fantasy in particular was playing some of the greatest TvT ive ever seen. He was constantly floating 4 digits in resources vs Flash. Smashed him 3 - 0 by allocating the majority of his apm to tactical troop positioning and movement as opposed to economy management. Shit was blowing my mind he was down on bases, down on supply but taking every single engagement.
Killing +20 dropship vs Flash, was basically an exhilarting show of slaying a TvT monster strat everyone tried to mimick from Flash.
And the Matrix on attacking tanks which nullified high ground advantage of Flash's.
Its sad we had to end this book of TvT before reaching the conclusion. Fantasy played like a fucking genius.
This just showed the beauty of BW, a tactician beat the biggest Macro Player.
On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote: easily... 1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era) 2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era) 3. stork (in the name of consistency) 4. reach (old school aura and star power) 5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below... obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist... most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts...
This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there.
you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now... there was lots of love and dramas on the game... personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era...
but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game... a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU... not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls) the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male) i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics) while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era... this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR....
what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest... meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best... therefore making bias perception...
take this for example... reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001 and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010) I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi.... AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...
As for the BEST TERRAN of all time... overall there is NO SUCH sole #1... BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH... the ranking would be based on netizen bias...
For PROTOSS all time... BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that...
ZERG?? SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way... #3 would definetly be YELLOW
i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR...
therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself...
Despite the popular opinion, I personally never considered Bisu as a player that overwhelmingly outshone Stork in the overall picture. If I were really into that sort of thing, I could probably make a pretty solid case that Stork was the greater player out of the two. There's not much between the two once you take out all the media related hype that surrounds Bisu, and start to really focus more on substance over style. Of course, Bisu will forever be associated with "changing the protoss race", which he did to a great degree, but really, if we're to go onto that subject, we should start lauding the likes of Pusan. Credits where its due, but sometimes what Bisu has done really catches on to the imaginations of his loyal fans, and it starts to shadow the actual player that Bisu was.
As for the zerg race, sAviOr is overrated like Bisu is to a certain degree (both are tremendous players, no doubt, but their legacy is sugar-coated due to the dramatic nature of their careers), whereas players such as July, who in my opinion is criminally underrated due to various circumstances, gets ignored in these kind of discussions. People always think of sAviOr that "saved" the zerg race from imbalance, when really, much of that was massively inflamed due to media hype. Definately one of the greatest zerg players ever, but really, his legacy gets blown out of proportion at times due to how easily it is to manipulate his career into a provacative story full of drama, twists and turns, and the ultimate betrayal at the end.
@ ividentia while you are right of that, you can justify that because of what has happend and not would have happend. i respect your opinion.
@letmelose
outlining the strengths... not the fanboying facts...
BISU 1. for the famed "revolution" 2. proleague reliability
STORK 1. overall consitency
achievements are arguable, so not included... i never said outshone stork... all i said is that he is the #1 overall... substance over style??? media hype?????? check whos substance was better on proleagues.... check whos substance was better on individual leagues... i bet bisu WON all that category.... the only thing that stork has an edge of bisu is consistency... while for bisu its reliability... we are talking of ALL TIME here... we are not basing on consistency alone...
BUT.... BUT!!!! BUT as for SAVIOR..... OVER RATED????!!! WTF you've got some nerves bro... you absolutely dont know what you are talking... eventhough it says Korea(South)....your location... or being a Korean if you are...
i wont argue if you said/saying SAVIOR is... a bad person/influence, ranked 2 and below, he should go to hell, ban for life.... but saying over rated???!! I cant allow that... to make things clear for you... i RESPECT savior because of his skills and warming love of female fans... thats it... i no other reason... AND i HATE savior for betraying us....
On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote: You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
you have to consider all these factors...
1. influence to the metagame 2. player mechanics/skills 3. consistency and reliability (you only look at this bro...) 4. star appeal 5. opponents in history 6. fan/netizen bias 7. personality 8. achievements
i guess that sums up before you rank the all-time
Stork was already an influential player before Bisu ever broke through and beat Savior in that legendary finals. Stork's influence on PvT is pretty fucking immense and he had fairly proficient mechanics. He was one of the few players that was able to beat Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash throughout their careers consistently and he had a long rivalry with all three of them. Bisu already started falling off at 2010 and near the end of BW he was pretty much nonexistent. Out of the four of TBLS Bisu's career was the shortest BY FAR and after his near-Bonjwa phase he fell off of the "S class" to never return to it. Stork was one of the best Protoss players through pretty much every single era since he broke out to the scene. Bisu fell to a point where in the last couple of years Best was playing every single matchup better than Bisu, and before that he was already outclassed by Stork, Kal, Horang2, and Jangbi.
On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote: You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
you have to consider all these factors...
1. influence to the metagame 2. player mechanics/skills 3. consistency and reliability (you only look at this bro...) 4. star appeal 5. opponents in history 6. fan/netizen bias 7. personality 8. achievements
i guess that sums up before you rank the all-time
Stork was already an influential player before Bisu ever broke through and beat Savior in that legendary finals. Stork's influence on PvT is pretty fucking immense and he had fairly proficient mechanics. He was one of the few players that was able to beat Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash throughout their careers consistently and he had a long rivalry with all three of them. Bisu already started falling off at 2010 and near the end of BW he was pretty much nonexistent. Out of the four of TBLS Bisu's career was the shortest BY FAR and after his near-Bonjwa phase he fell off of the "S class" to never return to it. Stork was one of the best Protoss players through pretty much every single era since he broke out to the scene. Bisu fell to a point where in the last couple of years Best was playing every single matchup better than Bisu, and before that he was already outclassed by Stork, Kal, Horang2, and Jangbi.
bisu was a much bigger game changer than stork though, and he did it in a matchup where protoss has always struggled to not get ass-raped, whereas pvt has always been pretty lol for toss
On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote: You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.
you have to consider all these factors...
1. influence to the metagame 2. player mechanics/skills 3. consistency and reliability (you only look at this bro...) 4. star appeal 5. opponents in history 6. fan/netizen bias 7. personality 8. achievements
i guess that sums up before you rank the all-time
Stork was already an influential player before Bisu ever broke through and beat Savior in that legendary finals. Stork's influence on PvT is pretty fucking immense and he had fairly proficient mechanics. He was one of the few players that was able to beat Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash throughout their careers consistently and he had a long rivalry with all three of them. Bisu already started falling off at 2010 and near the end of BW he was pretty much nonexistent. Out of the four of TBLS Bisu's career was the shortest BY FAR and after his near-Bonjwa phase he fell off of the "S class" to never return to it. Stork was one of the best Protoss players through pretty much every single era since he broke out to the scene. Bisu fell to a point where in the last couple of years Best was playing every single matchup better than Bisu, and before that he was already outclassed by Stork, Kal, Horang2, and Jangbi.
I think your view of existence in BW is a bit too OSL-centric, or at the very least individual league centric. Bisu only disappeared off the individual league scene, to put it into perspective, from 2010 on he maintained a winrate of 68%(compared to 59% from stork), this is taking into account is terrible starleague record. Almost all his wins were from the proleague, where he was still a powerhouse, and you know, generally helping to win the proleague for SKT1.
I don't know which games you were watching, but at the end of BW Bisu was playing phenomenally, yeah he was inconsistent, but when has he ever not been inconsistent? If anything Stork fell off considerably at the end, yeah he still played really well on some games, but looking at his games they weren't nearly as good as when he was at his peak. Whereas watching actual gameplay from Bisu's late career, he was actually playing better than at his peak, it was just that there were some other people also playing phenomenally and his poor form hit almost predictably in individual leagues.
I think even you don't really believe that Best was playing every matchup better than Bisu at any significant stretch of time, certainly not for 'a couple of years'. Basically the only time Bisu had not been the best PvZer around was that brief period when every protoss was doing terribly in the matchup, where the best PvZers were Stork, Kal, Movie. This only lasted several months, and honestly those guys were still doing terribly in the matchup, just less terribly than Bisu at the time. Best has basically never played PvZ better than Bisu, and hadn't PvPed better than Bisu since his early career. By the end of it he wasn't even PvTing better than Bisu (this was only a few months though).
I also don't really think Stork had that big of an effect on PvT, other than the short stint where they would go carriers every game, PvT fundamentally hasn't changed much since like Reach. There was a shift towards expoing earlier, but that's hardly the work of Stork. I think he was certainly the standard by which to measure PvT for basically the last 8 years or something. But playing well doesn't mean you have massive influence over the matchup. He wasn't in any way a trendsetter for PvT, he just was really really good at the matchup no matter what the metagame was.
This is incomparable to Bisu's influence on PvZ, he didn't invent FE into sairs, but almost noone did it before his emergence, and it was the gold standard of PvZ openings after him. It is still the gold standard today. The fact that he was also the best PvZer for the vast majority of his career while impressive is irrelevant to the influence he had on the matchup.
Yeah, I admit that my impression of the last few years is very MSL and OSL centred because I almost entirely stopped watching Proleague around the end of the match fixing scandal stuff when they got their sentences. I missed a ton of games when I stopped watching Proleague, and it is true that there were always a lot of players that played well in Proleague and played like garbage in MSL and OSL, so my impression of Bisu after his big post-near-bonjwa slump never really improved since he kept doing quite badly in the individual leagues.
On September 03 2013 07:04 BigFan wrote: Can someone give me the background of Nal_ra? I keep reading he revolutionized the way protoss is played but I haven't watched much of his games.
According to Kim Carrier in that little Nal_rA/NaDa/YellOw thing,
Nal_rA was the "model defensive protoss. His guidelines are still being used today."
On September 03 2013 07:04 BigFan wrote: Can someone give me the background of Nal_ra? I keep reading he revolutionized the way protoss is played but I haven't watched much of his games.
According to Kim Carrier in that little Nal_rA/NaDa/YellOw thing,
Nal_rA was the "model defensive protoss. His guidelines are still being used today."
hmm interesting. I guess Bisu was more offensive, Nal_rA defensive. Should probably watch some of his games to see it though lol. Is Nal_rA still in the army? thanks!
EPT
