Jangbi in all-time protoss ranking?

On August 30 2013 16:34 rift wrote:
His massive slump hurts. The two OSL wins make people forget about how horrible he was for so long: Pae-wang, "King of Losing" along with BeSt. Stork and Bisu are naturally above him as the two most-skilled Protoss in the game's history. Nal_rA was definitely more important strategically and the best Protoss before Taekbangleessang. Reach, while less accomplished shone in an era when Protoss was quite weak, thus the nickname "Hero Toss". I say:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Nal_rA
4. Reach
5. JangBi
6. Kingdom
7. Anytime
8. Grrrr
9. GARIMTO
These are the hall-of-famers IIRC. There are others that I'm neglecting, of course; the rest of the Dragons, older-school Protoss like IntoTheRain/Rainbow/etc.

On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu
2.Stork
3.Jangbi
4.Nal_Ra
5.Reach
6.Anytime
7.BeSt
8.Garimto
9.Kingdom
10.Kal/Free

On August 30 2013 16:53 Crisium wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Nal_ra
3. Stork
4. Reach
5. Jangbi

Yes, in the end, Jangbi did better than both Reach and Stork in individual leagues. But Jangbi was never the best Protoss in SPL. 2008 and 2009 were the only seasons he did better than his teammate Stork, and actually the only SPL seasons where he was even a top 5 Protoss, let alone a top BW pro. JangBi from late 2008 to early 2009 was at his peak: a top toss in SPL and reaching 3 finals in a short period of time. JangBi in 2011 and 2012 was immaculate in his OSL runs (I still get shivers) but even then his SPL was very average. And don't forget that before his OSL run in late summer 2011, JangBi was a paewang: one of the worst progamers on the scene and a laughingstock to anti-fans and an embarrassment to fans. His OSL victory in Jin Air erased that status, but you cannot forget that he did not perform in SPL compared to Stork and Bisu who were tops for years and years.

Nal_ra was the best Protoss hope against multiple bonjwas before Bisu. He beat NaDa in the finals when he was god (NaDa had won 4 of the previous 6 SLs), and waged the Holy Wars against Savior as the only Protoss hope before the revolutionist himself. He was tops in SPL, individual leagues, and defined Protoss builds over multiple generations (such as inventing FFE and Sair/Reaver). JangBi cannot be ranked higher than him: I won't allow it. Reach too was one of the few Protoss hopes against the greats of the other races: Boxer, NaDa, July and Savior playing all of them in finals while also defining macro Protoss play for years. JangBi is below these legends in total accomplishments, imo.

On August 30 2013 17:43 Iplaythings wrote:
I'd put him behind Ra, Bisu, Stork and Reach who I'd place top 4 in no particular order

On August 30 2013 18:22 saltywet wrote:
Jangbi had a terrible slump but Stork and Bisu weren't top for years and years... they had their long slumps too, with Bisu even being taken off lineup for rest.

On August 30 2013 18:58 Lachrymose wrote:


I'm really confused about the math in your post.

On August 30 2013 19:29 reminisce12 wrote:
Jangbi has the creativity to beat anyone in a bo5 match, but in terms of bo1 he wouldnt be ranked as high as a bisu or stork.

On August 30 2013 16:30 kidleaderr wrote:
Bisu
Stork
Jangbi

On August 30 2013 16:43 Chairman Ray wrote:
Jangbi to me was the best preparation protoss. His skill naturally wasn't very good, as denoted by his constant slumps and poor performance in proleague, but when he trains hardcore for a tournament, his results are spectacular. I think Kal and free are also Protosses worth mentioning.

On August 30 2013 19:55 Letmelose wrote:

I always had arguments with my friend whether JangBi or Bisu had the higher skill cap for the game, because both players had amazing potential that seemed to come short on multiple occasions (of course, the tendency being much more exaggerated in JangBi). He claimed that Bisu on his game was the most perfect protoss player, whereas I believed JangBi to be the ultimate protoss player. JangBi never struck me as the type to have the most guile, but his mechanics were always so crisp, and he truly was a beast when he was on form.

On August 30 2013 22:51 shaftofpleasure wrote:
Y'all motherfuckers are forgetting about Best ..

Bisu
Stork
Best
Jangbi
Nal_Ra
Reach

On August 30 2013 23:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:

How would you put BeSt on top of Ra, I don't understand...

On August 30 2013 18:31 Letmelose wrote:

Stork

Other notable achievements:

WCG 2009 Grand Finals Champion

On August 31 2013 00:09 figq wrote:
Jangbi is inconsistent. Sometimes the best in the world / truly epic and legendary. Other times, lazy and dull, letting his team down and way below expectations and his real abilities.

I love Jangbi, he is one of the most inspiring players to watch when he plays well. But his inconsistency doesn't grant him the greatness which otherwise 2 back-to-back OSL titles would. He did something amazing in BW which should place him at the highest tier of eternal glory, but it didn't feel like he completely owned it. More like, he pulled a ForGG twice, almost.

So maybe top 5 protoss of all time, if that. Hehe, not that such an accomplishment is bad, when you get compared to the likes of Nal_Ra, GARIMTO and Reach.

On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist)
2.Stork (1 OSL gold, 3 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, 3 WCG Korea silver, high winrate in all matchups and only person to be able to beat consistently Bisu/JD/Flash)
3.Jangbi (2 OSL gold, 2 MSL silver, 1 GOMTv silver, sick winrate during his first peak in 2009, only protoss beside Stork and Bisu to have actually broken the symbolic 2300+ ELO)
4.Nal_Ra (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, also a Proleague monster, and his play was very influential)
5.Reach (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 2 MSL silver, was the single protoss doing consistently well in individual leagues hence the nickname Hero protoss)
6.Anytime (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, carried Lecaf Oz to win the first Shinhan bank Proleague
7.BeSt (1 OSL silver, longest PvP streak ever which is very relevant in this classment, only player capable of beating Flash consistently during his God mode period)
8.Garimto (2 OSL gold, but stopped his career very early, so we can't really say he was consistent for a super long period, or had a strong influence on the protoss race)
9.Kingdom (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL silver)
10.Kal/Free (always overshadowed by the other dragons, but were doing good both in individual leagues and Proleague and were good in all matchups)

On August 31 2013 01:29 Black Gun wrote:
imho jangbi's two osl victories are overrated because they made such a fantastic storyline.

in his first osl victory, the defeat of flash was largely due to flash's hurting wrists.
his second osl is generally tainted because many bw pros were already preparing for the switch to sc2 at that time. jangbi and fantasy were probably the only players who still put 100% into that osl. (which is also the reason why fantasy was able to embarass flash 3-0 in that semis...)

so yeah, i love jangbi and all, but i wouldnt rate him top 3 just because of these two osl titles...
imho, the ranking is as follows:

#1: bisu, for being the most accomplished toss, the revolutionist and also for having a superb proleague record. and for his handsomeness.
#2: stork, for being the second pillar and spearhead of toss for over half of bw's overall lifespan. and for being the second most skilled toss of all time.
#3: nal_ra, for his massive contribution to the evolution of toss strategies and builds and for being very successful by toss standards.
#4: reach, for being the only successful toss at a time when the race as a whole was in danger of dying out. and for his unparalleled manliness.
#5: jangbi, for many great performances in individual leagues and for having maybe the strongest peak play of any toss in the history of the game.

On August 31 2013 00:13 chaosTheory_14cc wrote:

DINOTOSS4LIFE

On August 31 2013 03:04 GeckoXp wrote:
1. Nal_rA
2. Nal_rA
3. Nal_rA
4. Nal_rA
[...]

On August 31 2013 06:27 Ryo wrote:
1. Jangbi.
That is all.

On August 31 2013 10:12 saltywet wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +


you forgot backho and perfectman

On August 31 2013 12:43 TT1 wrote:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Nal_rA
4. JangBi
5. Reach
6. GARIMTO
7. Kingdom
8. Best
9. Anytime
10. Grrrr...

On August 30 2013 23:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:

How would you put BeSt on top of Ra, I don't understand...

On September 02 2013 00:11 shaftofpleasure wrote:


Fanboyism, mate. It burns inside of me.

On August 30 2013 16:34 rift wrote:
His massive slump hurts. The two OSL wins make people forget about how horrible he was for so long: Pae-wang, "King of Losing" along with BeSt. Stork and Bisu are naturally above him as the two most-skilled Protoss in the game's history. Nal_rA was definitely more important strategically and the best Protoss before Taekbangleessang. Reach, while less accomplished shone in an era when Protoss was quite weak, thus the nickname "Hero Toss". I say:
1. Bisu
2. Stork
3. Nal_rA
4. Reach
5. JangBi
6. Kingdom
7. Anytime
8. Grrrr
9. GARIMTO
These are the hall-of-famers IIRC. There are others that I'm neglecting, of course; the rest of the Dragons, older-school Protoss like IntoTheRain/Rainbow/etc.

from ygosu, all-time protoss proleague ranking

1 - 김택용/Bisu 192-85 69.3%
2 - 송병구/Stork 191-119 61.6%
3 - 윤용태/Free 147-120 55.1%
4 - 김구현/Kal 145-129 52.9%
5 - 도재욱/Best 120-87 58%
6 - 허영무/Jangbi 109-105 50.9%
7 - 오영종/Anytime 100-103 49.3%
(oldschoolers are lower due to fewer games)

and osl+msl records from ygosu (adding on my own)
Stork 115-94
Bisu 111-75
Nal_rA 92-60
Reach 87-79
Jangbi 70-46
Kal 62-57
Kingdom 48-50
free 42-39
Best 28-24
Grrr 27-18 (no msl then)
Garimto 27-21 (no msl then)
Anytime 25-24
Movie 22-21

didn't realize how much Kal was underappreciated..

On September 02 2013 02:50 rauk wrote:
it's worth noting that jangbi also won during a period of transition between sc2 and bw; a lot of the teams were supposed to have focused on sc2 hardcore during that time since it counted more than bw did for hybrid proleague (bw games in PL during this period looked like random foreigner games lol). i'd make the argument that he won during a period where bw was at its least competitive, compared to earlier eras

On September 02 2013 02:50 rauk wrote:
it's worth noting that jangbi also won during a period of transition between sc2 and bw; a lot of the teams were supposed to have focused on sc2 hardcore during that time since it counted more than bw did for hybrid proleague (bw games in PL during this period looked like random foreigner games lol). i'd make the argument that he won during a period where bw was at its least competitive, compared to earlier eras

On September 02 2013 00:38 BigFan wrote:

BeSt ahead of Jangbi too who has 2 OSL gold to 1 OSL silver(given PL performance also counts) lol.

On September 02 2013 02:54 brolaf wrote:
IMO no one comes close to Bisu because of his insane proleague dominance. The guy was a machine, even more than flash, in the later proleagues

On September 02 2013 11:16 wherebugsgo wrote:
I think at his peak Jangbi was much better than Stork. Stork was more consistent for a longer time, though at the end I think he spent way too much time playing cellphone games.

Bisu though...I will never forget the epic games he had with the other TLBS, particularly some of his games vs Flash.

On September 02 2013 10:02 saltywet wrote:



+ Show Spoiler +

it's also worth nothing that Jangbi was also doing fucking well in sc2 in proleague DURING his tving OSL run - going 6-2 (75%) between 5/15 and 8/25 (tving OSL), so don't fucking say that he focused on BW.

On September 02 2013 11:35 rauk wrote:


sure, but it just means that it wasn't a competitive environment across the board and maybe the results shouldn't be taken as seriously if no one was focusing on bw

On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.

On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.

On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.

On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.

On September 02 2013 22:56 pebble444 wrote:

On September 02 2013 14:30 koreasilver wrote:
You know, I'm really surprised that almost everyone is ranking Bisu above Stork. Although there was a period where Bisu was pretty much the best player and was smashing everything (akin to Jaedong's pretty much bonjwa period) Stork had a far longer and consistent career in comparison.

On September 02 2013 14:07 rauk wrote:
who are they going to practice with that still played bw? look at what happened to ace with no practice partners, they were the bottom feeders of proleague

i still rooted for jangbi to beat fantasux because fuck skt and i enjoyed the finals, but seriously, it wasn't nearly as competitive an OSL as it was even just a year ago

On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote:
easily...
1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era)
2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era)
3. stork (in the name of consistency)
4. reach (old school aura and star power)
5. jangbi (obviously why)

for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below...
obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist...
most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...

no fanboyism... just plain facts...

On September 03 2013 07:04 BigFan wrote:
Can someone give me the background of Nal_ra? I keep reading he revolutionized the way protoss is played but I haven't watched much of his games.


now we're trying to make assumptions that they are practicing on their own? I'm sure that some of their team members would've gladly helped them prepare and practice. We are talking about an OSL here. You know, OSL? I figure that's as high as it gets for these players.

A couple of days or week or two of hardcore BW practice isn't going to set you that far back in SCII when you consider that it's nowhere as mechanical a game as BW was so you can still talk strategy with other members of the team that are practicing it while helping your teammates with BW practice.

I just don't think it's right that Jangbi's OSL wins are being taken as 'everyone was busy with SCII, no one really cared so it was just his opponent not practicing" or to say it another way, a farce. I hope you're only talking about OSL 2012 because 2011, not sure if they were even practicing SCII at the time.

On September 03 2013 09:04 rauk wrote:


actually samsung was the first team that started tryharding sc2, so they were practicing sc2 in 2011. it doesn't matter how much simpler sc2 is than bw, the point is that jangbi would have to be splitting his time between two different games. his practice partners have zero investment in bw besides wanting to see jangbi win, because sc2 is their best opportunity to restart and have better success than they did in bw. it's just not as competitive an environment as it was when everyone was focused on bw

On September 03 2013 10:21 rauk wrote:
look, which is more competitive: a league where everyone is playing 100% broodwar, or a league where a couple are playing 90% broodwar, most people are playing sc2, some people are playing both to help the few bw players practice?

On September 03 2013 07:11 hp.Shell wrote:

This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there.

On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote:
take this for example...
reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001
and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010)
I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi....
AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...

On September 03 2013 20:23 riyanme wrote:


you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now...
there was lots of love and dramas on the game...
personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era...

but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game...
a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU...
not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls)
the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male)
i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics)
while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era...
this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR....

what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest...
meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best...
therefore making bias perception...

take this for example...
reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001
and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010)
I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi....
AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...

As for the BEST TERRAN of all time...
overall there is NO SUCH sole #1...
BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH...
the ranking would be based on netizen bias...

For PROTOSS all time...
BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that...

ZERG??
SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way...
#3 would definetly be YELLOW


i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR...

therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself...

On September 03 2013 12:28 ShadeR wrote:
Disagree. Big things were happening in BW during 2012. Fantasy in particular was playing some of the greatest TvT ive ever seen. He was constantly floating 4 digits in resources vs Flash. Smashed him 3 - 0 by allocating the majority of his apm to tactical troop positioning and movement as opposed to economy management. Shit was blowing my mind he was down on bases, down on supply but taking every single engagement.

On September 03 2013 20:46 Letmelose wrote:


Despite the popular opinion, I personally never considered Bisu as a player that overwhelmingly outshone Stork in the overall picture. If I were really into that sort of thing, I could probably make a pretty solid case that Stork was the greater player out of the two. There's not much between the two once you take out all the media related hype that surrounds Bisu, and start to really focus more on substance over style. Of course, Bisu will forever be associated with "changing the protoss race", which he did to a great degree, but really, if we're to go onto that subject, we should start lauding the likes of Pusan. Credits where its due, but sometimes what Bisu has done really catches on to the imaginations of his loyal fans, and it starts to shadow the actual player that Bisu was.

As for the zerg race, sAviOr is overrated like Bisu is to a certain degree (both are tremendous players, no doubt, but their legacy is sugar-coated due to the dramatic nature of their careers), whereas players such as July, who in my opinion is criminally underrated due to various circumstances, gets ignored in these kind of discussions. People always think of sAviOr that "saved" the zerg race from imbalance, when really, much of that was massively inflamed due to media hype. Definately one of the greatest zerg players ever, but really, his legacy gets blown out of proportion at times due to how easily it is to manipulate his career into a provacative story full of drama, twists and turns, and the ultimate betrayal at the end.

On September 04 2013 00:23 Poetic[AoV] wrote:

Ahh, Much deserves to be higher than 15! Always an exciting game with him.
One base carrier vs Bisu...

On September 04 2013 02:18 BigFan wrote:

do you have a vod for this? sounds interesting!

On September 02 2013 22:33 riyanme wrote:


you have to consider all these factors...

1. influence to the metagame
2. player mechanics/skills
3. consistency and reliability (you only look at this bro...)
4. star appeal
5. opponents in history
6. fan/netizen bias
7. personality
8. achievements


i guess that sums up before you rank the all-time

On September 04 2013 03:28 koreasilver wrote:

Stork was already an influential player before Bisu ever broke through and beat Savior in that legendary finals. Stork's influence on PvT is pretty fucking immense and he had fairly proficient mechanics. He was one of the few players that was able to beat Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash throughout their careers consistently and he had a long rivalry with all three of them. Bisu already started falling off at 2010 and near the end of BW he was pretty much nonexistent. Out of the four of TBLS Bisu's career was the shortest BY FAR and after his near-Bonjwa phase he fell off of the "S class" to never return to it. Stork was one of the best Protoss players through pretty much every single era since he broke out to the scene. Bisu fell to a point where in the last couple of years Best was playing every single matchup better than Bisu, and before that he was already outclassed by Stork, Kal, Horang2, and Jangbi.

On September 04 2013 03:28 koreasilver wrote:

Stork was already an influential player before Bisu ever broke through and beat Savior in that legendary finals. Stork's influence on PvT is pretty fucking immense and he had fairly proficient mechanics. He was one of the few players that was able to beat Bisu, Jaedong, and Flash throughout their careers consistently and he had a long rivalry with all three of them. Bisu already started falling off at 2010 and near the end of BW he was pretty much nonexistent. Out of the four of TBLS Bisu's career was the shortest BY FAR and after his near-Bonjwa phase he fell off of the "S class" to never return to it. Stork was one of the best Protoss players through pretty much every single era since he broke out to the scene. Bisu fell to a point where in the last couple of years Best was playing every single matchup better than Bisu, and before that he was already outclassed by Stork, Kal, Horang2, and Jangbi.

On September 04 2013 08:05 IntoTheheart wrote:


According to Kim Carrier in that little Nal_rA/NaDa/YellOw thing,

Nal_rA was the "model defensive protoss. His guidelines are still being used today."

On September 03 2013 20:23 riyanme wrote:


you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now...
there was lots of love and dramas on the game...
personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era...

but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game...
a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU...
not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls)
the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male)
i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics)
while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era...
this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR....

what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest...
meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best...
therefore making bias perception...

take this for example...
reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001
and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010)
I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi....
AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...

As for the BEST TERRAN of all time...
overall there is NO SUCH sole #1...
BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH...
the ranking would be based on netizen bias...

For PROTOSS all time...
BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that...

ZERG??
SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way...
#3 would definetly be YELLOW


i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR...

therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself...

On September 03 2013 21:06 riyanme wrote:



@ ividentia
while you are right of that, you can justify that because of what has happend and not would have happend.
i respect your opinion.


@letmelose

outlining the strengths... not the fanboying facts...

BISU
1. for the famed "revolution"
2. proleague reliability


STORK
1. overall consitency

achievements are arguable, so not included...
i never said outshone stork... all i said is that he is the #1 overall...
substance over style??? media hype??????
check whos substance was better on proleagues....
check whos substance was better on individual leagues...
i bet bisu WON all that category....
the only thing that stork has an edge of bisu is consistency...
while for bisu its reliability...
we are talking of ALL TIME here... we are not basing on consistency alone...

BUT....
BUT!!!!
BUT as for SAVIOR.....
OVER RATED????!!! WTF
you've got some nerves bro...
you absolutely dont know what you are talking...
eventhough it says Korea(South)....your location... or being a Korean if you are...

i wont argue if you said/saying SAVIOR is...
a bad person/influence, ranked 2 and below, he should go to hell, ban for life....
but saying over rated???!! I cant allow that...
to make things clear for you...
i RESPECT savior because of his skills and warming love of female fans... thats it... i no other reason...
AND
i HATE savior for betraying us....

On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW.

On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:


I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous)

On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:


I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous)

On September 04 2013 12:09 rauk wrote:


actually savior crushed the zerg graveyards with 80% winrate whereas jaedong got crushed by forgg 0-3 on shit maps

i think the biggest difference between 'modern' players like jd and players like savior is the importance of proleague and how the proleague schedule went like 5 days a week instead of whatever it was before

On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist)
2.Stork (1 OSL gold, 3 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, 3 WCG Korea silver, high winrate in all matchups and only person to be able to beat consistently Bisu/JD/Flash)
3.Jangbi (2 OSL gold, 2 MSL silver, 1 GOMTv silver, sick winrate during his first peak in 2009, only protoss beside Stork and Bisu to have actually broken the symbolic 2300+ ELO)
4.Nal_Ra (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, also a Proleague monster, and his play was very influential)
5.Reach (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 2 MSL silver, was the single protoss doing consistently well in individual leagues hence the nickname Hero protoss)
6.Anytime (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, carried Lecaf Oz to win the first Shinhan bank Proleague
7.BeSt (1 OSL silver, longest PvP streak ever which is very relevant in this classment, only player capable of beating Flash consistently during his God mode period)
8.Garimto (2 OSL gold, but stopped his career very early, so we can't really say he was consistent for a super long period, or had a strong influence on the protoss race)
9.Kingdom (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL silver)
10.Kal/Free (always overshadowed by the other dragons, but were doing good both in individual leagues and Proleague and were good in all matchups)

On September 04 2013 13:01 Letmelose wrote:


Okay, even if we take the pinnacle of sAviOr's career and pretend that it's what he did throughout his entire career, let's take a closer look at what actually happened at these two competitions.

OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3

Maps
Hitchhiker: 58-55 (49%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map
Longinus 2: 79-48 (38%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map
Neo Arkanoid: 46-24 (35%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map
Reverse Temple: 47-23 (33%) in favour of terran without sAvior's record in this map

Overall record of 230-150 versus terran (39% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 33% to 49% win rate)

sAviOr, the only zerg left in the round of four, goes on to win the tournament.

Arena MSL

Colosseum: 16-9 (25%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map
Othello: 41-17 (29%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map
Athena 1.0: 54-36 (40%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map
Tiamat: 4-0 (0%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map

Overall record of 115-62 versus terrans (35% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 0% to 40% win rate)

Jaedong, the only zerg left in the round of eight, goes on to take 2nd place.

I'm sorry, even when we take out their individual records, there's no way sAviOr fought harder battles in terms of map balance. His worst map in terms of statistics, Reverse Temple, gave his contempory fellow zergs a better chance of winning compared to ANY map from Arena MSL except for Colosseum. In fact, he had one balanced map in his pool, which is hardly mentioned when discussing his "against all odds" achievement. Don't get me wrong, sAviOr was totally awesome when he overcame his shitty map pool to conquer all, and it was thrilling to watch it from a spectator's point of view, but don't over-praise it, nor pretend that it was what only sAviOr had to face, or that he somehow was special from the others because of it. What he did will go down in history, but people take that one good memory and project into their weird fantasy of sAviOr.

Seriously, you're spitting in the face of YellOw when you talk as if maps like Longinus 2 was the hardest map that someone had to overcome.

On September 04 2013 13:44 rauk wrote:


cmon that's a 4% difference, and savior's maps had twice the amount of games played on them, and you can't seriously count a map that had 4 games total played on it (i mean yes, it was a total bullshit map, but 4 games out of 200+ is a drop in a bucket statistically)

terrans jd played in arena: hwasin x2, cuteangel, forgg
terrans savior played in shinhan 3: midas x2, light, iris, nada

i think savior's terrans were harder

but that wasn't my main argument. i said that proleague was the biggest difference between their winrates

let's look at their ZvT

savior:
29-24 54% MSL
15-11 57% OSL
26-23 53% 'team leagues'

jaedong:
36-24 60% MSL
23-17 57% OSL
83-49 63% 'team leagues'

yeah.... jd has almost triple the proleague games that savior has. different eras, hard to compare their winrates, where map 'hardness' is only one of the confounding factors

On September 04 2013 14:53 Letmelose wrote:


In fact, the lack of games help sAviOr's statistics, because trust me, if Tiamat had been played to the degree Longinus 2 was, the statistics would skew in Jaedong's favour by so much it wouldn't even be funny. People don't scrap maps instantaneously unless they're horrendously bad, and Tiamat was one of those examples. The maps were statistically better for sAviOr no matter what kind of spin you put on it. In fact, despite the media hype around it, OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3 wasn't the worst league for zergs, even if you take sAviOr out of the equation. There's just no dancing around that. It's not just Tiamat, Othello was used in the ProLeague, a map that terrans played more matches on it than the other two races added together, a map that was mainly showcased for its TvT match-ups. Even Colosseum, the most balanced map out of the four maps, was a ProLeague map that never had much zerg appearances due to balance issues. There's no logical way to explain that sAviOr's map pool was "harder" by any means or forms unless you're going by emotions and feels.

Look, I'll take sAviOr's peak performance over Jaedong's Arena MSL any day, but at the end of the day, the map pool was harder for Jaedong, and people always associate map imbalance with sAviOr due to his massive media exposure. It is an argument based for on myths and legends than common sense and factual observation.

Yes, Jaedong has performed in different eras from sAviOr, and his numbers are of a different nature due to the heavy revamping of the ProLeague format during the latter years. But the fact of the matter is, no matter what the set-up was, Jaedong has consistently, and proven again and again that he was the greater player to sAviOr in all stages available. It didn't matter whether the ProLeague was in a 3-day format, or a 5-day format, half-year seasons or a full year one, Jaedong just craps all over sAviOr, especially in the long run. I'm not going by pure numbers, you can look at each of these competitions individually, look at it from any angle, and you'll come to be same conclusion unless you start to instill "magic points" for the tournaments that you have emotional attachments to.

I don't see the point in "weighing" competitions on the basis of gut feelings or nostalgic fondness, especially if as humans, we're seriously prone to being biased for certain players over others. I could, for example, if I really wanted to, present a case that July was a greater player than sAviOr, and I seriously believe I would have an easier time than those trying to compare sAviOr's overall career to Jaedong's.

On September 04 2013 10:17 Letmelose wrote:


sAviOr was no doubt overrated, especially due to the storyline that can be drawn from his dramatic career. If you take a step back from the glorious and painful moments that surrounded his legacy, and actually take a closer, unbiased look into his actual performances as a player, you'll find that his actual results aren't as grand as one might expect. Of course, nothing can take away the glorious heights that he achieved, but in the overall picture, Jaedong overshadows him by a massive margin, while other zerg greats such as July, and YellOw are not a step below him in the general picture like most imagine them to be in my opinion. I can go in more detail over this, but as this would be deviating far too much from the original topic, I'll stop here. Before you feel the urge to defend your fallen hero, please take a step back, go over every detail of his career, not just the magical moments that is so precious in your memories, and paint a picture in your mind of the actual player, not conjure up a mythical figure drawn up from several moments of unforgettable performances.

As for Stork and Bisu. I actually don't really differentiate the two as being a step above the other, but here's my attempt at playing the devil's advocate.

Stork was better than Bisu in individual leagues, and if you're going by the logic that only first place finishes count, I'd like to see you try to argue that Hydra was a greater than YellOw. Here's why, from a post I wrote before in this thread.

Stork has managed to succeed in reaching the round of sixteen 23 times in his career, with a sucess rate of almost 66%. In comparison, Bisu was far more erratic, and more prone to failure, only managing to reach the round of sixteen 14 times, failing to do so the other 15 times in his career (take a moment to let this sink in, Bisu failed to do that more than 50%). In fact, Stork has a clear leverage over Bisu over every single stage possible in the individual leagues, including appearances in the finals. The only thing Bisu has over Stork is that he was more clutch in the finals, and of course, that is what gets remembered, hence the media hype that surrounds the several moments that Bisu actually shined. However, depending on how you weigh the other stages, it is way too easy to rank Stork above Bisu in the individual leagues. In the post where I weighed each round as being worth twice as more points than the previous round (if round of 16 is worth 1 pt, then the round of 8 is worth 2 pts, and such and such), Stork has more overall points in his overall career compared to Bisu.

As for the ProLeague, you're focusing too much on the two seasons worth of performances that Bisu rocked the world in. Every single ProLeague had differing number of available games, and by quoting overall numbers, you are invalidating every single performance that took place before the massive inflation in the number of games available. I'll actually be more accomadating to Bisu, and exclude any ProLeague performances by Stork that Bisu did not himself play in (including Stork's performance in 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 where he got joint-first place in terms of wins during the regular season).

Will fill in any details, if the performances were worth anything (I'm not going to spend time whether Bisu was 34th best, or 37th in the seasons he was miserably mediocre in).

2005 SKY ProLeague R2
Stork: 10 wins 7 losses (3rd overall in terms of number of wins, the highest in his team, team finishes 2nd)
Bisu: 2 wins 1 loss

2006 SKY ProLeague R2
Stork: 3 wins 4 losses
Bisu: 5 wins 4 losses (12th overall, 4th highest in his team, team finishes 1st)

2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1
Stork: 16 wins 4 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
Bisu: 6 wins 7 losses

2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2
Stork: 15 wins 6 losses (2nd overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 4 wins 3 losses

2008 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 12 wins 8 losses (9th overall, 3rd highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
Bisu: 6 wins 9 losses

2008~2009 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 30 wins 22 losses (joint-15th overall, joint-highest in his team)
Bisu: 53 wins 14 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)

2009~2010 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 31 wins 20 losses (11th overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 23 wins 20 losses (22nd overall, 2nd highest in his team, team finishes 2nd)

2010~2011 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 43 wins 29 losses (6th overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 66 wins 15 losses (1st overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)

Excluding ANY season of Stork's where Bisu failed to participate in, that's eight separate ProLeague seasons, five of which Stork has outperformed Bisu in. Even if you count the year long seasons worth twice as much due to their length, Stork still comes out on top (4 half-year seasons where he was better, and 1 full-year season where he was better).

In fact, Stork has pretty much been responsible for the entire success of his team, whether he was on form or not, excluding the few seasons where Jangbi came into his own. Whereas Bisu was never a factor in his old team, MBC Game Heroes, and only was the main player for his team, SK Telecom T1, in 2008~2009, and 2010~2011 seasons. As marvelous, and stupendously great as these two performances were, it does not make up for years of ProLeague mediocrity in my eyes. Sure, Bisu took advantage of the inflated numbers during the final years of the ProLeague, and boosted his numbers, and credits where it's due, Bisu was indeed fantastic when he was clicking. That's the point though, are you only going to remember his finest hour, just like the media? I thought we were arguing about the overall picture, not cherry picking a player's finest moments?

Want to go over other tournaments? Stork has managed to represent Korea in the WCG (longest running tournament outside of the three major tournaments discussed above), a record-breaking three times. Bisu has managed to represent it in one, and got stomped by Jaedong in the Grand Finals to get that single bronze medal, whereas Stork has all three medals to his name. Bisu did win that GomTV Classic S2, but despite the kindly recollection that tournament gets in Team Liquid mainly due to its English coverage, it was WAY down in terms of priorities in the general consesus of things, whereas WCG qualification was one of the most important things going on during the off-season (whereas GomTV Classic clogged up the schedule and was never taken as seriously as the KeSPA sanctioned leagues).

So to sums things up, Stork was in my eyes, statistically superior to Bisu in terms of individual league performances, was way more relevant in the ProLeague, as well as being a more influential figure in his team (in terms of gaming performance, not the fan girl he brings), and was more present in any off-season performances. Bisu, to his credit, was superior in MSL, reached higher heights in the ProLeague after years of being a non-factor for his teams, and is credited with "saving" the metagame of PvZ match-up. To be honest with you, I think Pusan was just as influential as Bisu in terms of influencing the metagame (with a different match-up, but his influence was massive), but his name is hardly mentioned, which really does make me wonder how much of Bisu's legacy is media-induced, and how much of it is truly his. The media REALLY wanted this guy to be the post-Boxer (had the looks, the skills, and the fan-base), like they tried it with sAviOr, but really, in the process, ended up sugar-coating their stories way too much, and now literally EVERYONE thinks that they're a cut above players who were in my personal opinion just as great as they were as players (not media figures, just looking at the substance, not the headlines created by the media).

On September 04 2013 15:28 riyanme wrote:



with this you've earn my respect.

i can argue your protoss statistic reasoning but i rather refrain from throwing stones back and forth.

as for savior and jaedong, we cant argue anymore on that. like i said, it could go either way. again, i respect your opinion about jaedong.

overall just like what hp.shell said....

@hp.shell
"There is almost really no way to know who would be the best of each race if all of the peak players from each era were to peak in skill on the same day and play each other to determine who is the best of all time."

On September 04 2013 16:33 LegalLord wrote:
Bisu is #1. No one can seriously contest this point.
Nal_rA is #2. His influence on P play is pretty significant and long-standing, and he was very consistent. Plus he's the only Protoss other than Bisu with an MSL title, and I don't think that P's weakness in the MSL is a coincidence (the format hurts P more).
Stork is #3 and Jangbi is #4, but they're pretty close. I'd say Stork edges him out because of consistency. Jangbi had extremely long suck streaks followed by one lucky dual title streak (which nevertheless is impressive enough to earn him a #4 of all time spot), but Stork has been a top player for a long time (and probably would have won more titles if not for the fact that he was up against only the very best of players in the finals).

On September 04 2013 16:48 BigFan wrote:

Sounds like you're saying MSL > OSL. I thought OSL was always valued more than MSL. Why is MSL format more hurtful to protoss players btw? Curious to know I still don't know why some people keep saying he has one lucky dual title streak. Is it because he got another chance to get into OSL 2011 after being out? He had to play through leta, zero and classic, all pretty decent and strong players to even get into the dual tournament then playing players like Calm, Baby, Shuttle, Flash, Fantasy etc... to finally win is lucky? cmon, I can understand if the reason was that some of the players were starting to play SCII on the side but even then, still feels like you're taking away from his wins a bit too much by saying it was lucky.

On September 04 2013 17:07 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:


Yeah, I'm not getting why he's calling it lucky either. It's not like he had easy draws or his opponents played terrible. Overall, I think people are putting too much stock into wins/loses/opponents (even though Jangbi had very respectable opponents in his OSLs imo). And fail to look at their actual level of play in those games. Looking at Jangbi's play in his OSLs, I don't think anyone can call it lucky, he simply played brilliantly, and had BW continued I don't think anyone could have reasonably expected him to drop back into obscurity after those OSLs due to only winning them through 'luck'. His play, imo more than anything, legitimised those wins as well deserved, more so than the competition he faced.

I think it is also the crux of why most people place Bisu over Stork. While Bisu was more clutch in finals, stork has had a longer and far more consistent career. And while Bisu has always had that bit of inconsistency, and effectively dropped off the starleagues late in his career, leading many like Koreasilver to dismiss him as being no longer relevant, but looking at his actual level of play, one could easily see that he was nowhere near irrelevant and was in fact maintaining overall, a far superior level of play than Stork.

On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist)

On September 04 2013 17:17 LegalLord wrote:

By lucky I do not mean that it was a fluke. I only mean that between SC2, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu being less successful than usual, and Fantasy's choking tendency (and VERY favorable maps in OSL#2), he had a fair bit of windfall in his favor. He did still get there though, which is impressive in its own right. Contrast to, for example, Stork, who faced top opponents in their prime for pretty every SL that he got to at least the semifinals in.

I can't really tell you why MSL is harder than OSL for P, I only have speculation. But I don't think that the disparity between the two is a coincidence, nor do I think that it's a coincidence that only #1 and #2 (or #3 if you think Stork is #2) top Protoss have ever won one, while a few random winners do exist for OSL.

On September 05 2013 02:43 OpticalShot wrote:
I've like everyone to take a step back and breathe and realize what an amazing thread this has become - a place where "BW veterans" can discuss the truly glorious days of BW (and with a Protoss bias too, which works for me). Loving the discussion!

On September 04 2013 17:17 LegalLord wrote:

By lucky I do not mean that it was a fluke. I only mean that between SC2, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu being less successful than usual, and Fantasy's choking tendency (and VERY favorable maps in OSL#2), he had a fair bit of windfall in his favor. He did still get there though, which is impressive in its own right. Contrast to, for example, Stork, who faced top opponents in their prime for pretty every SL that he got to at least the semifinals in.

I can't really tell you why MSL is harder than OSL for P, I only have speculation. But I don't think that the disparity between the two is a coincidence, nor do I think that it's a coincidence that only #1 and #2 (or #3 if you think Stork is #2) top Protoss have ever won one, while a few random winners do exist for OSL.

On September 05 2013 12:53 koreasilver wrote:
At that point Killer was on the rise and both Killer and Action were regarded to have strong ZvPs. They might not have had the reputation that someone like Jaedong does, but disregarding them off hand is pretty inane, honestly. If PvT was the only matchup that Jangbi "shone" in then he wouldn't have beaten Zero who might have had the strongest ZvP in the scene at the time. You don't just luck your way through like that - if we're going to consider that as lucking your way through then you could say that to pretty much anyone.

On September 05 2013 11:55 LegalLord wrote:

There's a pretty clear pattern there: weaker zergs, less protoss, and the strongest players are terran.
Beating Flash and Fantasy is no small feat, but it's a PvT feat if that's all his run was good for. We all know that Jangbi has an excellent PvT, arguably better than Stork's, but if that's all he has then he might as well be a Protoss Casy.

Killer and Action do not qualify as top-tier zergs (I wouldn't say that either of them were favored against Jangbi). Zero does, but he also is known for his choking. And his choking tendency is precisely the reason why Jangbi won - remember, he very nearly got crushed by Zero, who ended up throwing 2 games in a row after one bad loss. Does he deserve credit for winning that? Yes. But it's still no Jaedong.

Here's the other thing: Jangbi has a god awful record against both Bisu and Jaedong. He lost 2 finals against Bisu and overall has a 4-10 record against him. He has also never taken an official game against Jaedong. When it comes to players who are indisputably top-tier, he only shines in PvT (the "easy" matchup for protoss). Stork doesn't have that same problem, neither does Nal_rA (arguably with the exception of vs. iloveoov during his dominant years).

Jangbi is a PvT master, and the stars aligned in his favor for both OSLs. Two wins like that did earn him a place in the ranks of top protoss, but it's still quite clear he got lucky.

On September 05 2013 16:44 metzninja wrote:
How can you think that ZerO threw two games against JangBi? Yes, ZerO sacced a few too many lurkers trying to drop in game 4, but he was trying to buy time for his spire to complete so he could snipe obs. Also, ZerO played well in game 5, but all his efforts to stall JangBi's expansions were handled perfectly (like the attacks on 3 and 10:30). JangBi deserved that win and beat one of the two best ZvPers of the time to get it. (Hydra was more consistent, but ZerO had more capacity for greatness. Speaking of Killer, his ZvP was better and more reliable than JD's at that time.)

If you're going to bring bias into the equation, let's look at Bisu's MSL finals appearances and focus on his weakness, PvT.

S1: Iris, Canata, Hwasin and Light. Three terrible TvP players, with only Iris being a good scalp.
S2: Freedom, Light, Hwasin. Two terrible TvPers and a rookie.
S3: Flash, oov, Hwasin, XellOs, loss to Mind. Only good result was against Flash, XellOs being well past his prime.
ClubDay: Hwasin, fbh. Need I say more?

Notice how this could be spun into lies about Bisu getting lucky or Bisu having bad PvT, when neither of these statements are remotely true.

Let's go back to some more facts.

JangBi vs dragons:

Stork: 5-0
free: 5-1
Kal: 10-6
Best: 1-3
Bisu: 4-10

25-20 or 56%

Bisu vs dragons:

Stork: 9-15
free: 10-9
Kal: 6-7
Best: 3-0
JangBi: 10-4

38-35 or 52%

Also, it's worth noting that JangBi and Bisu have similar winrates against other good PvPers of the modern era (Stats, Violet, Horang2, Shuttle).

So I find your assertion that JangBi was lucky to be baseless, because he was certainly capable in all three matchups, just as Bisu was. Each was godlike in one matchup. Even alluding to a "protoss Casy" shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.

On September 05 2013 17:49 Caladbolg wrote:
Jangbi wasn't lucky, and is definitely within the top 5, arguably top 3, but to denigrate Bisu's accomplishments in his period of individual league dominance (MSLs, 4 finals 3 wins) in a less random format doesn't help anyone's case. Letmelose already presented the BEST argument of how Bisu could possibly have a rival at number 1, but it's an argument, and one not popularly shared. I still believe that Nal Ra is being thrown under the bus by some people here because his relative performace (vis a vis his Protoss brethren) was theoretically even better than Bisu's. So while I still maintain that it's 1. Bisu 2. Nal Ra 3. Stork in that order, it's much closer than the Terran and Zerg top 3 which would be 1. Flash 2. Oov/Nada 3. Boxer and 1. Jaedong 2. Savior 3. Julyzerg