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On September 03 2013 20:23 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 07:11 hp.Shell wrote:On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote:
easily...
1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era)
2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era)
3. stork (in the name of consistency)
4. reach (old school aura and star power)
5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below...
obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist...
most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts... This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there. you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now... there was lots of love and dramas on the game... personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era... but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game... a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU... not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls) the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male) i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics) while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era... this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR.... what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest...
meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best...
therefore making bias perception...
take this for example...
reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001
and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010)
I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi....
AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time...As for the BEST TERRAN of all time... overall there is NO SUCH sole #1... BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH... the ranking would be based on netizen bias... For PROTOSS all time... BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that... ZERG?? SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way... #3 would definetly be YELLOW i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR... therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself...
I agree that there is some bias towards saying the latest players are the best of all time, but it is not to discount the older players' peak strengths. There is almost really no way to know who would be the best of each race if all of the peak players from each era were to peak in skill on the same day and play each other to determine who is the best of all time.
The thing I think we have to consider when talking about the "best of all time" includes not only the metagame of the era but the metagame of the past and future eras. Someone like GARIMTO, playing at his peak in his progaming career, would stand absolutely no chance against Bisu at his peak, or even the lowest B-teamer. The mechanics changed and the metagame evolved. I think it rests on us to conclude that the players in the most recent and present eras are undisputably the best players of all time simply due to the level of mechanics and the depth of the metagame.
However, when ranking the best of all time, we also have to decide how much the mechanics/metagame actually mattered when considering each player. Could someone like BoxeR for example have played to the mechanical skill level of Flash? I would argue that no, he couldn't have played at Flash's level. I think the more important things to consider are things like how well did they perform against their competition, did they make changes to mechanics (e.g. Maynard) and/or the metagame (e.g. NaDa, sAviOr, Bisu, etc)?
Consistency is of course admirable but someone like Stork who was consistent over a long period of time without really having a huge peak like Bisu, well that puts Stork in the hot seat. Could Stork have really ever played to Bisu's highest level? That's not to say he never did, certainly he had times where he played better, but we're talking about the peak here. It's like saying "yeah I was the best B-teamer for Samsung for 20 years, but I never got to play on tv" vs "I won an OSL one year and then stopped playing so much." I think this thinking makes Bisu definitely the better of the two.
There's a lot more to say but I'll leave it for others.
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On September 03 2013 21:06 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 20:46 Letmelose wrote:On September 03 2013 20:23 riyanme wrote:On September 03 2013 07:11 hp.Shell wrote:On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote:
easily...
1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era)
2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era)
3. stork (in the name of consistency)
4. reach (old school aura and star power)
5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below...
obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist...
most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts... This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there. you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now... there was lots of love and dramas on the game... personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era... but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game... a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU... not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls) the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male) i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics) while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era... this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR.... what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest... meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best... therefore making bias perception... take this for example... reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001 and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010) I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi.... AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time... As for the BEST TERRAN of all time... overall there is NO SUCH sole #1... BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH... the ranking would be based on netizen bias... For PROTOSS all time... BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that... ZERG?? SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way... #3 would definetly be YELLOW i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR... therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself... Despite the popular opinion, I personally never considered Bisu as a player that overwhelmingly outshone Stork in the overall picture. If I were really into that sort of thing, I could probably make a pretty solid case that Stork was the greater player out of the two. There's not much between the two once you take out all the media related hype that surrounds Bisu, and start to really focus more on substance over style. Of course, Bisu will forever be associated with "changing the protoss race", which he did to a great degree, but really, if we're to go onto that subject, we should start lauding the likes of Pusan. Credits where its due, but sometimes what Bisu has done really catches on to the imaginations of his loyal fans, and it starts to shadow the actual player that Bisu was. As for the zerg race, sAviOr is overrated like Bisu is to a certain degree (both are tremendous players, no doubt, but their legacy is sugar-coated due to the dramatic nature of their careers), whereas players such as July, who in my opinion is criminally underrated due to various circumstances, gets ignored in these kind of discussions. People always think of sAviOr that "saved" the zerg race from imbalance, when really, much of that was massively inflamed due to media hype. Definately one of the greatest zerg players ever, but really, his legacy gets blown out of proportion at times due to how easily it is to manipulate his career into a provacative story full of drama, twists and turns, and the ultimate betrayal at the end. @ ividentia while you are right of that, you can justify that because of what has happend and not would have happend. i respect your opinion. @letmelose outlining the strengths... not the fanboying facts... BISU 1. for the famed "revolution" 2. proleague reliability STORK 1. overall consitency achievements are arguable, so not included... i never said outshone stork... all i said is that he is the #1 overall... substance over style??? media hype?????? check whos substance was better on proleagues.... check whos substance was better on individual leagues... i bet bisu WON all that category.... the only thing that stork has an edge of bisu is consistency... while for bisu its reliability... we are talking of ALL TIME here... we are not basing on consistency alone... BUT.... BUT!!!! BUT as for SAVIOR..... OVER RATED????!!! WTF you've got some nerves bro... you absolutely dont know what you are talking... eventhough it says Korea(South)....your location... or being a Korean if you are... i wont argue if you said/saying SAVIOR is... a bad person/influence, ranked 2 and below, he should go to hell, ban for life.... but saying over rated???!! I cant allow that... to make things clear for you... i RESPECT savior because of his skills and warming love of female fans... thats it... i no other reason... AND i HATE savior for betraying us....
sAviOr was no doubt overrated, especially due to the storyline that can be drawn from his dramatic career. If you take a step back from the glorious and painful moments that surrounded his legacy, and actually take a closer, unbiased look into his actual performances as a player, you'll find that his actual results aren't as grand as one might expect. Of course, nothing can take away the glorious heights that he achieved, but in the overall picture, Jaedong overshadows him by a massive margin, while other zerg greats such as July, and YellOw are not a step below him in the general picture like most imagine them to be in my opinion. I can go in more detail over this, but as this would be deviating far too much from the original topic, I'll stop here. Before you feel the urge to defend your fallen hero, please take a step back, go over every detail of his career, not just the magical moments that is so precious in your memories, and paint a picture in your mind of the actual player, not conjure up a mythical figure drawn up from several moments of unforgettable performances.
As for Stork and Bisu. I actually don't really differentiate the two as being a step above the other, but here's my attempt at playing the devil's advocate.
Stork was better than Bisu in individual leagues, and if you're going by the logic that only first place finishes count, I'd like to see you try to argue that Hydra was a greater than YellOw. Here's why, from a post I wrote before in this thread.
Stork has managed to succeed in reaching the round of sixteen 23 times in his career, with a sucess rate of almost 66%. In comparison, Bisu was far more erratic, and more prone to failure, only managing to reach the round of sixteen 14 times, failing to do so the other 15 times in his career (take a moment to let this sink in, Bisu failed to do that more than 50%). In fact, Stork has a clear leverage over Bisu over every single stage possible in the individual leagues, including appearances in the finals. The only thing Bisu has over Stork is that he was more clutch in the finals, and of course, that is what gets remembered, hence the media hype that surrounds the several moments that Bisu actually shined. However, depending on how you weigh the other stages, it is way too easy to rank Stork above Bisu in the individual leagues. In the post where I weighed each round as being worth twice as more points than the previous round (if round of 16 is worth 1 pt, then the round of 8 is worth 2 pts, and such and such), Stork has more overall points in his overall career compared to Bisu.
As for the ProLeague, you're focusing too much on the two seasons worth of performances that Bisu rocked the world in. Every single ProLeague had differing number of available games, and by quoting overall numbers, you are invalidating every single performance that took place before the massive inflation in the number of games available. I'll actually be more accomadating to Bisu, and exclude any ProLeague performances by Stork that Bisu did not himself play in (including Stork's performance in 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 where he got joint-first place in terms of wins during the regular season).
Will fill in any details, if the performances were worth anything (I'm not going to spend time whether Bisu was 34th best, or 37th in the seasons he was miserably mediocre in).
2005 SKY ProLeague R2
Stork: 10 wins 7 losses (3rd overall in terms of number of wins, the highest in his team, team finishes 2nd)
Bisu: 2 wins 1 loss
2006 SKY ProLeague R2
Stork: 3 wins 4 losses
Bisu: 5 wins 4 losses (12th overall, 4th highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1
Stork: 16 wins 4 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
Bisu: 6 wins 7 losses
2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2
Stork: 15 wins 6 losses (2nd overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 4 wins 3 losses
2008 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 12 wins 8 losses (9th overall, 3rd highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
Bisu: 6 wins 9 losses
2008~2009 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 30 wins 22 losses (joint-15th overall, joint-highest in his team)
Bisu: 53 wins 14 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
2009~2010 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 31 wins 20 losses (11th overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 23 wins 20 losses (22nd overall, 2nd highest in his team, team finishes 2nd)
2010~2011 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 43 wins 29 losses (6th overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 66 wins 15 losses (1st overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
Excluding ANY season of Stork's where Bisu failed to participate in, that's eight separate ProLeague seasons, five of which Stork has outperformed Bisu in. Even if you count the year long seasons worth twice as much due to their length, Stork still comes out on top (4 half-year seasons where he was better, and 1 full-year season where he was better).
In fact, Stork has pretty much been responsible for the entire success of his team, whether he was on form or not, excluding the few seasons where Jangbi came into his own. Whereas Bisu was never a factor in his old team, MBC Game Heroes, and only was the main player for his team, SK Telecom T1, in 2008~2009, and 2010~2011 seasons. As marvelous, and stupendously great as these two performances were, it does not make up for years of ProLeague mediocrity in my eyes. Sure, Bisu took advantage of the inflated numbers during the final years of the ProLeague, and boosted his numbers, and credits where it's due, Bisu was indeed fantastic when he was clicking. That's the point though, are you only going to remember his finest hour, just like the media? I thought we were arguing about the overall picture, not cherry picking a player's finest moments?
Want to go over other tournaments? Stork has managed to represent Korea in the WCG (longest running tournament outside of the three major tournaments discussed above), a record-breaking three times. Bisu has managed to represent it in one, and got stomped by Jaedong in the Grand Finals to get that single bronze medal, whereas Stork has all three medals to his name. Bisu did win that GomTV Classic S2, but despite the kindly recollection that tournament gets in Team Liquid mainly due to its English coverage, it was WAY down in terms of priorities in the general consesus of things, whereas WCG qualification was one of the most important things going on during the off-season (whereas GomTV Classic clogged up the schedule and was never taken as seriously as the KeSPA sanctioned leagues).
So to sums things up, Stork was in my eyes, statistically superior to Bisu in terms of individual league performances, was way more relevant in the ProLeague, as well as being a more influential figure in his team (in terms of gaming performance, not the fan girl he brings), and was more present in any off-season performances. Bisu, to his credit, was superior in MSL, reached higher heights in the ProLeague after years of being a non-factor for his teams, and is credited with "saving" the metagame of PvZ match-up. To be honest with you, I think Pusan was just as influential as Bisu in terms of influencing the metagame (with a different match-up, but his influence was massive), but his name is hardly mentioned, which really does make me wonder how much of Bisu's legacy is media-induced, and how much of it is truly his. The media REALLY wanted this guy to be the post-Boxer (had the looks, the skills, and the fan-base), like they tried it with sAviOr, but really, in the process, ended up sugar-coating their stories way too much, and now literally EVERYONE thinks that they're a cut above players who were in my personal opinion just as great as they were as players (not media figures, just looking at the substance, not the headlines created by the media).
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Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW.
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On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW.
I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous)
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On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW. I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous)
actually savior crushed the zerg graveyards with 80% winrate whereas jaedong got crushed by forgg 0-3 on shit maps
i think the biggest difference between 'modern' players like jd and players like savior is the importance of proleague and how the proleague schedule went like 5 days a week instead of whatever it was before
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On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW. I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous)
This is yet another "legend" created by the media. There were far harder maps that various zergs throughout the years had to face, and overcame to a certain degree that makes Longinus look like a complete legitimate map. sAviOr was indeed amazing in his prime, but this perpetual over-exaggeration of what he actually did, and which kind of maps he played in is way over-played.
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On September 04 2013 12:09 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW. I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous) actually savior crushed the zerg graveyards with 80% winrate whereas jaedong got crushed by forgg 0-3 on shit maps i think the biggest difference between 'modern' players like jd and players like savior is the importance of proleague and how the proleague schedule went like 5 days a week instead of whatever it was before
Okay, even if we take the pinnacle of sAviOr's career and pretend that it's what he did throughout his entire career, let's take a closer look at what actually happened at these two competitions.
OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3
Maps
Hitchhiker: 58-55 (49%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map
Longinus 2: 79-48 (38%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map
Neo Arkanoid: 46-24 (35%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map
Reverse Temple: 47-23 (33%) in favour of terran without sAvior's record in this map
Overall record of 230-150 versus terran (39% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 33% to 49% win rate)
sAviOr, the only zerg left in the round of four, goes on to win the tournament.
Arena MSL
Colosseum: 16-9 (25%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map
Othello: 41-17 (29%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map
Athena 1.0: 54-36 (40%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map
Tiamat: 4-0 (0%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map
Overall record of 115-62 versus terrans (35% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 0% to 40% win rate)
Jaedong, the only zerg left in the round of eight, goes on to take 2nd place.
I'm sorry, even when we take out their individual records, there's no way sAviOr fought harder battles in terms of map balance. His worst map in terms of statistics, Reverse Temple, gave his contempory fellow zergs a better chance of winning compared to ANY map from Arena MSL except for Colosseum. In fact, he had one balanced map in his pool, which is hardly mentioned when discussing his "against all odds" achievement. Don't get me wrong, sAviOr was totally awesome when he overcame his shitty map pool to conquer all, and it was thrilling to watch it from a spectator's point of view, but don't over-praise it, nor pretend that it was what only sAviOr had to face, or that he somehow was special from the others because of it. What he did will go down in history, but people take that one good memory and project into their weird fantasy of sAviOr.
Seriously, you're spitting in the face of YellOw when you talk as if maps like Longinus 2 was the hardest map that someone had to overcome.
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On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote:
1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist)
2.Stork (1 OSL gold, 3 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, 3 WCG Korea silver, high winrate in all matchups and only person to be able to beat consistently Bisu/JD/Flash)
3.Jangbi (2 OSL gold, 2 MSL silver, 1 GOMTv silver, sick winrate during his first peak in 2009, only protoss beside Stork and Bisu to have actually broken the symbolic 2300+ ELO)
4.Nal_Ra (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 1 MSL silver, also a Proleague monster, and his play was very influential)
5.Reach (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, 2 MSL silver, was the single protoss doing consistently well in individual leagues hence the nickname Hero protoss)
6.Anytime (1 OSL gold, 1 OSL silver, carried Lecaf Oz to win the first Shinhan bank Proleague
7.BeSt (1 OSL silver, longest PvP streak ever which is very relevant in this classment, only player capable of beating Flash consistently during his God mode period)
8.Garimto (2 OSL gold, but stopped his career very early, so we can't really say he was consistent for a super long period, or had a strong influence on the protoss race)
9.Kingdom (1 OSL gold, 1 MSL silver)
10.Kal/Free (always overshadowed by the other dragons, but were doing good both in individual leagues and Proleague and were good in all matchups)
Fantastic post, could not agree more with that list.
For what it's worth: as someone who watched every great protoss play (I'm old enough to have watched GARIMTO unfortunately), I think Jangbi's skill ceiling was the highest. Bisu probably had more "great" games than anyone, but Jangbi's best was just unbelievable...he had it all. Sad that he's quitting but he gave it a hell of a run.
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It's hard to say who's best in order. As long as he's on the list that's all that matters, which he has been unofficially.
I don't like lists. 
However, isn't there something to say for being at the top not only in the furthest development of the game but at a time when other protoss were having trouble?
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On September 04 2013 13:01 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 12:09 rauk wrote:On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW. I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous) actually savior crushed the zerg graveyards with 80% winrate whereas jaedong got crushed by forgg 0-3 on shit maps i think the biggest difference between 'modern' players like jd and players like savior is the importance of proleague and how the proleague schedule went like 5 days a week instead of whatever it was before Okay, even if we take the pinnacle of sAviOr's career and pretend that it's what he did throughout his entire career, let's take a closer look at what actually happened at these two competitions. OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3 Maps Hitchhiker: 58-55 (49%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Longinus 2: 79-48 (38%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Neo Arkanoid: 46-24 (35%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Reverse Temple: 47-23 (33%) in favour of terran without sAvior's record in this map Overall record of 230-150 versus terran (39% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 33% to 49% win rate) sAviOr, the only zerg left in the round of four, goes on to win the tournament. Arena MSL Colosseum: 16-9 (25%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Othello: 41-17 (29%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Athena 1.0: 54-36 (40%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Tiamat: 4-0 (0%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Overall record of 115-62 versus terrans (35% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 0% to 40% win rate) Jaedong, the only zerg left in the round of eight, goes on to take 2nd place. I'm sorry, even when we take out their individual records, there's no way sAviOr fought harder battles in terms of map balance. His worst map in terms of statistics, Reverse Temple, gave his contempory fellow zergs a better chance of winning compared to ANY map from Arena MSL except for Colosseum. In fact, he had one balanced map in his pool, which is hardly mentioned when discussing his "against all odds" achievement. Don't get me wrong, sAviOr was totally awesome when he overcame his shitty map pool to conquer all, and it was thrilling to watch it from a spectator's point of view, but don't over-praise it, nor pretend that it was what only sAviOr had to face, or that he somehow was special from the others because of it. What he did will go down in history, but people take that one good memory and project into their weird fantasy of sAviOr. Seriously, you're spitting in the face of YellOw when you talk as if maps like Longinus 2 was the hardest map that someone had to overcome.
cmon that's a 4% difference, and savior's maps had twice the amount of games played on them, and you can't seriously count a map that had 4 games total played on it (i mean yes, it was a total bullshit map, but 4 games out of 200+ is a drop in a bucket statistically)
terrans jd played in arena: hwasin x2, cuteangel, forgg
terrans savior played in shinhan 3: midas x2, light, iris, nada
i think savior's terrans were harder
but that wasn't my main argument. i said that proleague was the biggest difference between their winrates
let's look at their ZvT
savior:
29-24 54% MSL
15-11 57% OSL
26-23 53% 'team leagues'
jaedong:
36-24 60% MSL
23-17 57% OSL
83-49 63% 'team leagues'
yeah.... jd has almost triple the proleague games that savior has. different eras, hard to compare their winrates, where map 'hardness' is only one of the confounding factors
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On September 04 2013 13:44 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 13:01 Letmelose wrote:On September 04 2013 12:09 rauk wrote:On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW. I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous) actually savior crushed the zerg graveyards with 80% winrate whereas jaedong got crushed by forgg 0-3 on shit maps i think the biggest difference between 'modern' players like jd and players like savior is the importance of proleague and how the proleague schedule went like 5 days a week instead of whatever it was before Okay, even if we take the pinnacle of sAviOr's career and pretend that it's what he did throughout his entire career, let's take a closer look at what actually happened at these two competitions. OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3 Maps Hitchhiker: 58-55 (49%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Longinus 2: 79-48 (38%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Neo Arkanoid: 46-24 (35%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Reverse Temple: 47-23 (33%) in favour of terran without sAvior's record in this map Overall record of 230-150 versus terran (39% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 33% to 49% win rate) sAviOr, the only zerg left in the round of four, goes on to win the tournament. Arena MSL Colosseum: 16-9 (25%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Othello: 41-17 (29%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Athena 1.0: 54-36 (40%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Tiamat: 4-0 (0%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Overall record of 115-62 versus terrans (35% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 0% to 40% win rate) Jaedong, the only zerg left in the round of eight, goes on to take 2nd place. I'm sorry, even when we take out their individual records, there's no way sAviOr fought harder battles in terms of map balance. His worst map in terms of statistics, Reverse Temple, gave his contempory fellow zergs a better chance of winning compared to ANY map from Arena MSL except for Colosseum. In fact, he had one balanced map in his pool, which is hardly mentioned when discussing his "against all odds" achievement. Don't get me wrong, sAviOr was totally awesome when he overcame his shitty map pool to conquer all, and it was thrilling to watch it from a spectator's point of view, but don't over-praise it, nor pretend that it was what only sAviOr had to face, or that he somehow was special from the others because of it. What he did will go down in history, but people take that one good memory and project into their weird fantasy of sAviOr. Seriously, you're spitting in the face of YellOw when you talk as if maps like Longinus 2 was the hardest map that someone had to overcome. cmon that's a 4% difference, and savior's maps had twice the amount of games played on them, and you can't seriously count a map that had 4 games total played on it (i mean yes, it was a total bullshit map, but 4 games out of 200+ is a drop in a bucket statistically) terrans jd played in arena: hwasin x2, cuteangel, forgg terrans savior played in shinhan 3: midas x2, light, iris, nada i think savior's terrans were harder but that wasn't my main argument. i said that proleague was the biggest difference between their winrates let's look at their ZvT savior: 29-24 54% MSL 15-11 57% OSL 26-23 53% 'team leagues' jaedong: 36-24 60% MSL 23-17 57% OSL 83-49 63% 'team leagues' yeah.... jd has almost triple the proleague games that savior has. different eras, hard to compare their winrates, where map 'hardness' is only one of the confounding factors
In fact, the lack of games help sAviOr's statistics, because trust me, if Tiamat had been played to the degree Longinus 2 was, the statistics would skew in Jaedong's favour by so much it wouldn't even be funny. People don't scrap maps instantaneously unless they're horrendously bad, and Tiamat was one of those examples. The maps were statistically better for sAviOr no matter what kind of spin you put on it. In fact, despite the media hype around it, OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3 wasn't the worst league for zergs, even if you take sAviOr out of the equation. There's just no dancing around that. It's not just Tiamat, Othello was used in the ProLeague, a map that terrans played more matches on it than the other two races added together, a map that was mainly showcased for its TvT match-ups. Even Colosseum, the most balanced map out of the four maps, was a ProLeague map that never had much zerg appearances due to balance issues. There's no logical way to explain that sAviOr's map pool was "harder" by any means or forms unless you're going by emotions and feels.
Look, I'll take sAviOr's peak performance over Jaedong's Arena MSL any day, but at the end of the day, the map pool was harder for Jaedong, and people always associate map imbalance with sAviOr due to his massive media exposure. It is an argument based for on myths and legends than common sense and factual observation.
Yes, Jaedong has performed in different eras from sAviOr, and his numbers are of a different nature due to the heavy revamping of the ProLeague format during the latter years. But the fact of the matter is, no matter what the set-up was, Jaedong has consistently, and proven again and again that he was the greater player to sAviOr in all stages available. It didn't matter whether the ProLeague was in a 3-day format, or a 5-day format, half-year seasons or a full year one, Jaedong just craps all over sAviOr, especially in the long run. I'm not going by pure numbers, you can look at each of these competitions individually, look at it from any angle, and you'll come to be same conclusion unless you start to instill "magic points" for the tournaments that you have emotional attachments to.
I don't see the point in "weighing" competitions on the basis of gut feelings or nostalgic fondness, especially if as humans, we're seriously prone to being biased for certain players over others. I could, for example, if I really wanted to, present a case that July was a greater player than sAviOr, and I seriously believe I would have an easier time than those trying to compare sAviOr's overall career to Jaedong's.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 04 2013 14:53 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 13:44 rauk wrote:On September 04 2013 13:01 Letmelose wrote:On September 04 2013 12:09 rauk wrote:On September 04 2013 12:04 xMiragex wrote:On September 04 2013 11:51 koreasilver wrote:
Savior may be overrated but the shape of ZvT that took place due to Savior solidified the standard ZvT opening in such a way that the foundations of ZvT didn't change all the way to the end of professional BW. That's a pretty insane legacy. Savior at his prime was pretty proficient in all matchups but with ZvT there's basically a before and after Savior. It's akin to how Bisu utterly standardized forge fe corsair in PvZ except it was deeper, because the entire general structure of 3hatch muta -> expansion(s) -> lurkers -> hive was created by Savior. Jaedong supersedes Savior because he was better in every way, but when he first burst into the scene his ZvT and ZvP were essentially just more refined and better executed Savior strats and tactics to a large degree (although he also showed super aggressive Yarnc/Yellow style ZvTs which he later developed and caused a 2hatch obsession era among all Zerg players except for Effort who held down the 3hatch builds alone for a long stretch). Jaedong's genius was mainly based off of executing the sound strategies and tactics of a number of great players better through his insane mechanical proficiency and strategic insight, I think, although Jaedong also completely changed a matchup in such a way that for ZvZ there's a before and after Jaedong. After Savior's slump and the rise of Jaedong/Yellow/Yarnc, I personally don't think we got to see another true management style Zerg until Zero really blew up in the latter years of BW. I agree, also you can't compare savior's %s with jaedong's as easily as well due to how HORRIBLE some maps were again zergs...like freaking zerg graveyards (i mean there are obviously better/worse maps for a race but some were disastrous) actually savior crushed the zerg graveyards with 80% winrate whereas jaedong got crushed by forgg 0-3 on shit maps i think the biggest difference between 'modern' players like jd and players like savior is the importance of proleague and how the proleague schedule went like 5 days a week instead of whatever it was before Okay, even if we take the pinnacle of sAviOr's career and pretend that it's what he did throughout his entire career, let's take a closer look at what actually happened at these two competitions. OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3 Maps Hitchhiker: 58-55 (49%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Longinus 2: 79-48 (38%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Neo Arkanoid: 46-24 (35%) in favour of terran without sAviOr's record in this map Reverse Temple: 47-23 (33%) in favour of terran without sAvior's record in this map Overall record of 230-150 versus terran (39% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 33% to 49% win rate) sAviOr, the only zerg left in the round of four, goes on to win the tournament. Arena MSL Colosseum: 16-9 (25%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Othello: 41-17 (29%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Athena 1.0: 54-36 (40%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Tiamat: 4-0 (0%) in favour of terran without Jaedong's record in this map Overall record of 115-62 versus terrans (35% win rate for zergs overall, maps varying from 0% to 40% win rate) Jaedong, the only zerg left in the round of eight, goes on to take 2nd place. I'm sorry, even when we take out their individual records, there's no way sAviOr fought harder battles in terms of map balance. His worst map in terms of statistics, Reverse Temple, gave his contempory fellow zergs a better chance of winning compared to ANY map from Arena MSL except for Colosseum. In fact, he had one balanced map in his pool, which is hardly mentioned when discussing his "against all odds" achievement. Don't get me wrong, sAviOr was totally awesome when he overcame his shitty map pool to conquer all, and it was thrilling to watch it from a spectator's point of view, but don't over-praise it, nor pretend that it was what only sAviOr had to face, or that he somehow was special from the others because of it. What he did will go down in history, but people take that one good memory and project into their weird fantasy of sAviOr. Seriously, you're spitting in the face of YellOw when you talk as if maps like Longinus 2 was the hardest map that someone had to overcome. cmon that's a 4% difference, and savior's maps had twice the amount of games played on them, and you can't seriously count a map that had 4 games total played on it (i mean yes, it was a total bullshit map, but 4 games out of 200+ is a drop in a bucket statistically) terrans jd played in arena: hwasin x2, cuteangel, forgg terrans savior played in shinhan 3: midas x2, light, iris, nada i think savior's terrans were harder but that wasn't my main argument. i said that proleague was the biggest difference between their winrates let's look at their ZvT savior: 29-24 54% MSL 15-11 57% OSL 26-23 53% 'team leagues' jaedong: 36-24 60% MSL 23-17 57% OSL 83-49 63% 'team leagues' yeah.... jd has almost triple the proleague games that savior has. different eras, hard to compare their winrates, where map 'hardness' is only one of the confounding factors In fact, the lack of games help sAviOr's statistics, because trust me, if Tiamat had been played to the degree Longinus 2 was, the statistics would skew in Jaedong's favour by so much it wouldn't even be funny. People don't scrap maps instantaneously unless they're horrendously bad, and Tiamat was one of those examples. The maps were statistically better for sAviOr no matter what kind of spin you put on it. In fact, despite the media hype around it, OGN Shinhan StarLeague S3 wasn't the worst league for zergs, even if you take sAviOr out of the equation. There's just no dancing around that. It's not just Tiamat, Othello was used in the ProLeague, a map that terrans played more matches on it than the other two races added together, a map that was mainly showcased for its TvT match-ups. Even Colosseum, the most balanced map out of the four maps, was a ProLeague map that never had much zerg appearances due to balance issues. There's no logical way to explain that sAviOr's map pool was "harder" by any means or forms unless you're going by emotions and feels. Look, I'll take sAviOr's peak performance over Jaedong's Arena MSL any day, but at the end of the day, the map pool was harder for Jaedong, and people always associate map imbalance with sAviOr due to his massive media exposure. It is an argument based for on myths and legends than common sense and factual observation. Yes, Jaedong has performed in different eras from sAviOr, and his numbers are of a different nature due to the heavy revamping of the ProLeague format during the latter years. But the fact of the matter is, no matter what the set-up was, Jaedong has consistently, and proven again and again that he was the greater player to sAviOr in all stages available. It didn't matter whether the ProLeague was in a 3-day format, or a 5-day format, half-year seasons or a full year one, Jaedong just craps all over sAviOr, especially in the long run. I'm not going by pure numbers, you can look at each of these competitions individually, look at it from any angle, and you'll come to be same conclusion unless you start to instill "magic points" for the tournaments that you have emotional attachments to. I don't see the point in "weighing" competitions on the basis of gut feelings or nostalgic fondness, especially if as humans, we're seriously prone to being biased for certain players over others. I could, for example, if I really wanted to, present a case that July was a greater player than sAviOr, and I seriously believe I would have an easier time than those trying to compare sAviOr's overall career to Jaedong's.
hmm you make a lot of interesting points. I think you should write a blog comparing the different zerg players such as Jaedong, Savior and JulyZerg. I would love to read it as long as it includes some stats about the different maps, matchups etc...
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On September 04 2013 10:17 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 21:06 riyanme wrote:On September 03 2013 20:46 Letmelose wrote:On September 03 2013 20:23 riyanme wrote:On September 03 2013 07:11 hp.Shell wrote:On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote:
easily...
1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era)
2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era)
3. stork (in the name of consistency)
4. reach (old school aura and star power)
5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below...
obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist...
most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts... This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there. you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now... there was lots of love and dramas on the game... personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era... but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game... a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU... not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls) the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male) i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics) while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era... this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR.... what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest... meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best... therefore making bias perception... take this for example... reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001 and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010) I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi.... AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time... As for the BEST TERRAN of all time... overall there is NO SUCH sole #1... BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH... the ranking would be based on netizen bias... For PROTOSS all time... BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that... ZERG?? SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way... #3 would definetly be YELLOW i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR... therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself... Despite the popular opinion, I personally never considered Bisu as a player that overwhelmingly outshone Stork in the overall picture. If I were really into that sort of thing, I could probably make a pretty solid case that Stork was the greater player out of the two. There's not much between the two once you take out all the media related hype that surrounds Bisu, and start to really focus more on substance over style. Of course, Bisu will forever be associated with "changing the protoss race", which he did to a great degree, but really, if we're to go onto that subject, we should start lauding the likes of Pusan. Credits where its due, but sometimes what Bisu has done really catches on to the imaginations of his loyal fans, and it starts to shadow the actual player that Bisu was. As for the zerg race, sAviOr is overrated like Bisu is to a certain degree (both are tremendous players, no doubt, but their legacy is sugar-coated due to the dramatic nature of their careers), whereas players such as July, who in my opinion is criminally underrated due to various circumstances, gets ignored in these kind of discussions. People always think of sAviOr that "saved" the zerg race from imbalance, when really, much of that was massively inflamed due to media hype. Definately one of the greatest zerg players ever, but really, his legacy gets blown out of proportion at times due to how easily it is to manipulate his career into a provacative story full of drama, twists and turns, and the ultimate betrayal at the end. @ ividentia while you are right of that, you can justify that because of what has happend and not would have happend. i respect your opinion. @letmelose outlining the strengths... not the fanboying facts... BISU 1. for the famed "revolution" 2. proleague reliability STORK 1. overall consitency achievements are arguable, so not included... i never said outshone stork... all i said is that he is the #1 overall... substance over style??? media hype?????? check whos substance was better on proleagues.... check whos substance was better on individual leagues... i bet bisu WON all that category.... the only thing that stork has an edge of bisu is consistency... while for bisu its reliability... we are talking of ALL TIME here... we are not basing on consistency alone... BUT.... BUT!!!! BUT as for SAVIOR..... OVER RATED????!!! WTF you've got some nerves bro... you absolutely dont know what you are talking... eventhough it says Korea(South)....your location... or being a Korean if you are... i wont argue if you said/saying SAVIOR is... a bad person/influence, ranked 2 and below, he should go to hell, ban for life.... but saying over rated???!! I cant allow that... to make things clear for you... i RESPECT savior because of his skills and warming love of female fans... thats it... i no other reason... AND i HATE savior for betraying us.... sAviOr was no doubt overrated, especially due to the storyline that can be drawn from his dramatic career. If you take a step back from the glorious and painful moments that surrounded his legacy, and actually take a closer, unbiased look into his actual performances as a player, you'll find that his actual results aren't as grand as one might expect. Of course, nothing can take away the glorious heights that he achieved, but in the overall picture, Jaedong overshadows him by a massive margin, while other zerg greats such as July, and YellOw are not a step below him in the general picture like most imagine them to be in my opinion. I can go in more detail over this, but as this would be deviating far too much from the original topic, I'll stop here. Before you feel the urge to defend your fallen hero, please take a step back, go over every detail of his career, not just the magical moments that is so precious in your memories, and paint a picture in your mind of the actual player, not conjure up a mythical figure drawn up from several moments of unforgettable performances. As for Stork and Bisu. I actually don't really differentiate the two as being a step above the other, but here's my attempt at playing the devil's advocate. Stork was better than Bisu in individual leagues, and if you're going by the logic that only first place finishes count, I'd like to see you try to argue that Hydra was a greater than YellOw. Here's why, from a post I wrote before in this thread. Stork has managed to succeed in reaching the round of sixteen 23 times in his career, with a sucess rate of almost 66%. In comparison, Bisu was far more erratic, and more prone to failure, only managing to reach the round of sixteen 14 times, failing to do so the other 15 times in his career (take a moment to let this sink in, Bisu failed to do that more than 50%). In fact, Stork has a clear leverage over Bisu over every single stage possible in the individual leagues, including appearances in the finals. The only thing Bisu has over Stork is that he was more clutch in the finals, and of course, that is what gets remembered, hence the media hype that surrounds the several moments that Bisu actually shined. However, depending on how you weigh the other stages, it is way too easy to rank Stork above Bisu in the individual leagues. In the post where I weighed each round as being worth twice as more points than the previous round (if round of 16 is worth 1 pt, then the round of 8 is worth 2 pts, and such and such), Stork has more overall points in his overall career compared to Bisu. As for the ProLeague, you're focusing too much on the two seasons worth of performances that Bisu rocked the world in. Every single ProLeague had differing number of available games, and by quoting overall numbers, you are invalidating every single performance that took place before the massive inflation in the number of games available. I'll actually be more accomadating to Bisu, and exclude any ProLeague performances by Stork that Bisu did not himself play in (including Stork's performance in 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 where he got joint-first place in terms of wins during the regular season). Will fill in any details, if the performances were worth anything (I'm not going to spend time whether Bisu was 34th best, or 37th in the seasons he was miserably mediocre in). 2005 SKY ProLeague R2 Stork: 10 wins 7 losses (3rd overall in terms of number of wins, the highest in his team, team finishes 2nd) Bisu: 2 wins 1 loss 2006 SKY ProLeague R2 Stork: 3 wins 4 losses Bisu: 5 wins 4 losses (12th overall, 4th highest in his team, team finishes 1st) 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Stork: 16 wins 4 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st) Bisu: 6 wins 7 losses 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2 Stork: 15 wins 6 losses (2nd overall, the highest in his team) Bisu: 4 wins 3 losses 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 12 wins 8 losses (9th overall, 3rd highest in his team, team finishes 1st) Bisu: 6 wins 9 losses 2008~2009 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 30 wins 22 losses (joint-15th overall, joint-highest in his team) Bisu: 53 wins 14 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st) 2009~2010 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 31 wins 20 losses (11th overall, the highest in his team) Bisu: 23 wins 20 losses (22nd overall, 2nd highest in his team, team finishes 2nd) 2010~2011 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 43 wins 29 losses (6th overall, the highest in his team) Bisu: 66 wins 15 losses (1st overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st) Excluding ANY season of Stork's where Bisu failed to participate in, that's eight separate ProLeague seasons, five of which Stork has outperformed Bisu in. Even if you count the year long seasons worth twice as much due to their length, Stork still comes out on top (4 half-year seasons where he was better, and 1 full-year season where he was better). In fact, Stork has pretty much been responsible for the entire success of his team, whether he was on form or not, excluding the few seasons where Jangbi came into his own. Whereas Bisu was never a factor in his old team, MBC Game Heroes, and only was the main player for his team, SK Telecom T1, in 2008~2009, and 2010~2011 seasons. As marvelous, and stupendously great as these two performances were, it does not make up for years of ProLeague mediocrity in my eyes. Sure, Bisu took advantage of the inflated numbers during the final years of the ProLeague, and boosted his numbers, and credits where it's due, Bisu was indeed fantastic when he was clicking. That's the point though, are you only going to remember his finest hour, just like the media? I thought we were arguing about the overall picture, not cherry picking a player's finest moments? Want to go over other tournaments? Stork has managed to represent Korea in the WCG (longest running tournament outside of the three major tournaments discussed above), a record-breaking three times. Bisu has managed to represent it in one, and got stomped by Jaedong in the Grand Finals to get that single bronze medal, whereas Stork has all three medals to his name. Bisu did win that GomTV Classic S2, but despite the kindly recollection that tournament gets in Team Liquid mainly due to its English coverage, it was WAY down in terms of priorities in the general consesus of things, whereas WCG qualification was one of the most important things going on during the off-season (whereas GomTV Classic clogged up the schedule and was never taken as seriously as the KeSPA sanctioned leagues). So to sums things up, Stork was in my eyes, statistically superior to Bisu in terms of individual league performances, was way more relevant in the ProLeague, as well as being a more influential figure in his team (in terms of gaming performance, not the fan girl he brings), and was more present in any off-season performances. Bisu, to his credit, was superior in MSL, reached higher heights in the ProLeague after years of being a non-factor for his teams, and is credited with "saving" the metagame of PvZ match-up. To be honest with you, I think Pusan was just as influential as Bisu in terms of influencing the metagame (with a different match-up, but his influence was massive), but his name is hardly mentioned, which really does make me wonder how much of Bisu's legacy is media-induced, and how much of it is truly his. The media REALLY wanted this guy to be the post-Boxer (had the looks, the skills, and the fan-base), like they tried it with sAviOr, but really, in the process, ended up sugar-coating their stories way too much, and now literally EVERYONE thinks that they're a cut above players who were in my personal opinion just as great as they were as players (not media figures, just looking at the substance, not the headlines created by the media).
with this you've earn my respect.
i can argue your protoss statistic reasoning but i rather refrain from throwing stones back and forth.
as for savior and jaedong, we cant argue anymore on that. like i said, it could go either way. again, i respect your opinion about jaedong.
overall just like what hp.shell said....
@hp.shell
"There is almost really no way to know who would be the best of each race if all of the peak players from each era were to peak in skill on the same day and play each other to determine who is the best of all time."
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On September 04 2013 15:28 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 10:17 Letmelose wrote:On September 03 2013 21:06 riyanme wrote:On September 03 2013 20:46 Letmelose wrote:On September 03 2013 20:23 riyanme wrote:On September 03 2013 07:11 hp.Shell wrote:On September 02 2013 10:41 riyanme wrote:
easily...
1. bisu (revolutionist tbls era)
2. nalra (revolutionist pre-tbls era)
3. stork (in the name of consistency)
4. reach (old school aura and star power)
5. jangbi (obviously why)
for those who placed/voted nalra 3rd and below...
obviously you weren't during those years when he was a revolutionist...
most likely you guys started tuning to bw more like 2008 and above...
no fanboyism... just plain facts... This is true at least for me, and I could see NR being higher than Stork in terms of relative impact during the time period. I started watching when Tasteless started casting the GOMtv Star Invitational. At the time, in my blind and struggling insight, Stork and Flash seemed like the top two players. One of my goals is to go back before the TBLS era and watch old OSLs and proleague matches. Especially Nal_rA games. I have a faint inkling of reach, anytime, and GARIMTO. Much seems to be on a top-15 or so list, but I'm not sure there. you should... lots of awesome games... very entertaining unlike sc2 now... there was lots of love and dramas on the game... personally the grand age of BW was 2006-2009.... more like the pre-post savior era... but i never saw any other fans/fanclub of NALRA and SAVIOR that cried alot when they lose the game... a korean friend of mine cried alot when SAVIOR lost that finals to BISU... not just her but her classmates as well... (young girls) the overwhelming love to the programmers is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND nowadays... (from female fans, not male) i couldn't remember anymore seeing fans doing banners, streamers and such on a HIGHER LEVEL (just like of a KPOP fanatics) while you still see some after, I DARE YOU to compare during the PRE TBLS era... this may seem bias but was also the reason why I love SAVIOR.... what people dont realize is that they VALUE much of what was on the latest... meaning, the latest/previous winners ALWAYS deem to be the best... therefore making bias perception... take this for example... reverse the time table... lets say jangbi won that recent 2 OSL way back 2001 and the REACH era is on this present time (2008-2010) I DOUBT you will still remember jangbi.... AND ARGUEABLY you'll be saying that NALRA and REACH is the best player of all time... As for the BEST TERRAN of all time... overall there is NO SUCH sole #1... BOXER, NADA ILOVEOOV and FLASH... the ranking would be based on netizen bias... For PROTOSS all time... BISU is the sole #1.... NO ONE can deny that... ZERG?? SAVIOR and JAEDONG.... could go either way... #3 would definetly be YELLOW i was aware of the some korean bw tournaments way back 2001 when wcg first held their qualifier on my province here in philippines. my friends keep telling me of bw tourna being held in booths and wearing "spacesuits"/weird outfits in korea. of course, at that time, i thought this was just crazy impossible and were trying to fool me... fast foward to 2004, that was the first time I saw korean bw tournames held and i was DROOLING with excitement. though i didn't follow religiously that time, it was early 2006 that I really started watching BW religiously, during the rise of SAVIOR... therefore... if you haven't been following at the time when the player is at his peak/fame, you will never realize how important, strong and influencial that player was... more like experience is better than knowledge itself... Despite the popular opinion, I personally never considered Bisu as a player that overwhelmingly outshone Stork in the overall picture. If I were really into that sort of thing, I could probably make a pretty solid case that Stork was the greater player out of the two. There's not much between the two once you take out all the media related hype that surrounds Bisu, and start to really focus more on substance over style. Of course, Bisu will forever be associated with "changing the protoss race", which he did to a great degree, but really, if we're to go onto that subject, we should start lauding the likes of Pusan. Credits where its due, but sometimes what Bisu has done really catches on to the imaginations of his loyal fans, and it starts to shadow the actual player that Bisu was. As for the zerg race, sAviOr is overrated like Bisu is to a certain degree (both are tremendous players, no doubt, but their legacy is sugar-coated due to the dramatic nature of their careers), whereas players such as July, who in my opinion is criminally underrated due to various circumstances, gets ignored in these kind of discussions. People always think of sAviOr that "saved" the zerg race from imbalance, when really, much of that was massively inflamed due to media hype. Definately one of the greatest zerg players ever, but really, his legacy gets blown out of proportion at times due to how easily it is to manipulate his career into a provacative story full of drama, twists and turns, and the ultimate betrayal at the end. @ ividentia while you are right of that, you can justify that because of what has happend and not would have happend. i respect your opinion. @letmelose outlining the strengths... not the fanboying facts... BISU 1. for the famed "revolution" 2. proleague reliability STORK 1. overall consitency achievements are arguable, so not included... i never said outshone stork... all i said is that he is the #1 overall... substance over style??? media hype?????? check whos substance was better on proleagues.... check whos substance was better on individual leagues... i bet bisu WON all that category.... the only thing that stork has an edge of bisu is consistency... while for bisu its reliability... we are talking of ALL TIME here... we are not basing on consistency alone... BUT.... BUT!!!! BUT as for SAVIOR..... OVER RATED????!!! WTF you've got some nerves bro... you absolutely dont know what you are talking... eventhough it says Korea(South)....your location... or being a Korean if you are... i wont argue if you said/saying SAVIOR is... a bad person/influence, ranked 2 and below, he should go to hell, ban for life.... but saying over rated???!! I cant allow that... to make things clear for you... i RESPECT savior because of his skills and warming love of female fans... thats it... i no other reason... AND i HATE savior for betraying us.... sAviOr was no doubt overrated, especially due to the storyline that can be drawn from his dramatic career. If you take a step back from the glorious and painful moments that surrounded his legacy, and actually take a closer, unbiased look into his actual performances as a player, you'll find that his actual results aren't as grand as one might expect. Of course, nothing can take away the glorious heights that he achieved, but in the overall picture, Jaedong overshadows him by a massive margin, while other zerg greats such as July, and YellOw are not a step below him in the general picture like most imagine them to be in my opinion. I can go in more detail over this, but as this would be deviating far too much from the original topic, I'll stop here. Before you feel the urge to defend your fallen hero, please take a step back, go over every detail of his career, not just the magical moments that is so precious in your memories, and paint a picture in your mind of the actual player, not conjure up a mythical figure drawn up from several moments of unforgettable performances. As for Stork and Bisu. I actually don't really differentiate the two as being a step above the other, but here's my attempt at playing the devil's advocate. Stork was better than Bisu in individual leagues, and if you're going by the logic that only first place finishes count, I'd like to see you try to argue that Hydra was a greater than YellOw. Here's why, from a post I wrote before in this thread. Stork has managed to succeed in reaching the round of sixteen 23 times in his career, with a sucess rate of almost 66%. In comparison, Bisu was far more erratic, and more prone to failure, only managing to reach the round of sixteen 14 times, failing to do so the other 15 times in his career (take a moment to let this sink in, Bisu failed to do that more than 50%). In fact, Stork has a clear leverage over Bisu over every single stage possible in the individual leagues, including appearances in the finals. The only thing Bisu has over Stork is that he was more clutch in the finals, and of course, that is what gets remembered, hence the media hype that surrounds the several moments that Bisu actually shined. However, depending on how you weigh the other stages, it is way too easy to rank Stork above Bisu in the individual leagues. In the post where I weighed each round as being worth twice as more points than the previous round (if round of 16 is worth 1 pt, then the round of 8 is worth 2 pts, and such and such), Stork has more overall points in his overall career compared to Bisu. As for the ProLeague, you're focusing too much on the two seasons worth of performances that Bisu rocked the world in. Every single ProLeague had differing number of available games, and by quoting overall numbers, you are invalidating every single performance that took place before the massive inflation in the number of games available. I'll actually be more accomadating to Bisu, and exclude any ProLeague performances by Stork that Bisu did not himself play in (including Stork's performance in 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 where he got joint-first place in terms of wins during the regular season). Will fill in any details, if the performances were worth anything (I'm not going to spend time whether Bisu was 34th best, or 37th in the seasons he was miserably mediocre in). 2005 SKY ProLeague R2 Stork: 10 wins 7 losses (3rd overall in terms of number of wins, the highest in his team, team finishes 2nd) Bisu: 2 wins 1 loss 2006 SKY ProLeague R2 Stork: 3 wins 4 losses Bisu: 5 wins 4 losses (12th overall, 4th highest in his team, team finishes 1st) 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1 Stork: 16 wins 4 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st) Bisu: 6 wins 7 losses 2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2 Stork: 15 wins 6 losses (2nd overall, the highest in his team) Bisu: 4 wins 3 losses 2008 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 12 wins 8 losses (9th overall, 3rd highest in his team, team finishes 1st) Bisu: 6 wins 9 losses 2008~2009 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 30 wins 22 losses (joint-15th overall, joint-highest in his team) Bisu: 53 wins 14 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st) 2009~2010 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 31 wins 20 losses (11th overall, the highest in his team) Bisu: 23 wins 20 losses (22nd overall, 2nd highest in his team, team finishes 2nd) 2010~2011 Shinhan ProLeague Stork: 43 wins 29 losses (6th overall, the highest in his team) Bisu: 66 wins 15 losses (1st overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st) Excluding ANY season of Stork's where Bisu failed to participate in, that's eight separate ProLeague seasons, five of which Stork has outperformed Bisu in. Even if you count the year long seasons worth twice as much due to their length, Stork still comes out on top (4 half-year seasons where he was better, and 1 full-year season where he was better). In fact, Stork has pretty much been responsible for the entire success of his team, whether he was on form or not, excluding the few seasons where Jangbi came into his own. Whereas Bisu was never a factor in his old team, MBC Game Heroes, and only was the main player for his team, SK Telecom T1, in 2008~2009, and 2010~2011 seasons. As marvelous, and stupendously great as these two performances were, it does not make up for years of ProLeague mediocrity in my eyes. Sure, Bisu took advantage of the inflated numbers during the final years of the ProLeague, and boosted his numbers, and credits where it's due, Bisu was indeed fantastic when he was clicking. That's the point though, are you only going to remember his finest hour, just like the media? I thought we were arguing about the overall picture, not cherry picking a player's finest moments? Want to go over other tournaments? Stork has managed to represent Korea in the WCG (longest running tournament outside of the three major tournaments discussed above), a record-breaking three times. Bisu has managed to represent it in one, and got stomped by Jaedong in the Grand Finals to get that single bronze medal, whereas Stork has all three medals to his name. Bisu did win that GomTV Classic S2, but despite the kindly recollection that tournament gets in Team Liquid mainly due to its English coverage, it was WAY down in terms of priorities in the general consesus of things, whereas WCG qualification was one of the most important things going on during the off-season (whereas GomTV Classic clogged up the schedule and was never taken as seriously as the KeSPA sanctioned leagues). So to sums things up, Stork was in my eyes, statistically superior to Bisu in terms of individual league performances, was way more relevant in the ProLeague, as well as being a more influential figure in his team (in terms of gaming performance, not the fan girl he brings), and was more present in any off-season performances. Bisu, to his credit, was superior in MSL, reached higher heights in the ProLeague after years of being a non-factor for his teams, and is credited with "saving" the metagame of PvZ match-up. To be honest with you, I think Pusan was just as influential as Bisu in terms of influencing the metagame (with a different match-up, but his influence was massive), but his name is hardly mentioned, which really does make me wonder how much of Bisu's legacy is media-induced, and how much of it is truly his. The media REALLY wanted this guy to be the post-Boxer (had the looks, the skills, and the fan-base), like they tried it with sAviOr, but really, in the process, ended up sugar-coating their stories way too much, and now literally EVERYONE thinks that they're a cut above players who were in my personal opinion just as great as they were as players (not media figures, just looking at the substance, not the headlines created by the media). with this you've earn my respect. i can argue your protoss statistic reasoning but i rather refrain from throwing stones back and forth. as for savior and jaedong, we cant argue anymore on that. like i said, it could go either way. again, i respect your opinion about jaedong. overall just like what hp.shell said.... @hp.shell "There is almost really no way to know who would be the best of each race if all of the peak players from each era were to peak in skill on the same day and play each other to determine who is the best of all time."
that's a terrible test because it should be pretty obvious modern players will crush old schoolers, unless you think people like nada in 2009 were significantly worse than than they were in 2003
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Bisu is #1. No one can seriously contest this point.
Nal_rA is #2. His influence on P play is pretty significant and long-standing, and he was very consistent. Plus he's the only Protoss other than Bisu with an MSL title, and I don't think that P's weakness in the MSL is a coincidence (the format hurts P more).
Stork is #3 and Jangbi is #4, but they're pretty close. I'd say Stork edges him out because of consistency. Jangbi had extremely long suck streaks followed by one lucky dual title streak (which nevertheless is impressive enough to earn him a #4 of all time spot), but Stork has been a top player for a long time (and probably would have won more titles if not for the fact that he was up against only the very best of players in the finals).
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 04 2013 16:33 LegalLord wrote:
Bisu is #1. No one can seriously contest this point.
Nal_rA is #2. His influence on P play is pretty significant and long-standing, and he was very consistent. Plus he's the only Protoss other than Bisu with an MSL title, and I don't think that P's weakness in the MSL is a coincidence (the format hurts P more).
Stork is #3 and Jangbi is #4, but they're pretty close. I'd say Stork edges him out because of consistency. Jangbi had extremely long suck streaks followed by one lucky dual title streak (which nevertheless is impressive enough to earn him a #4 of all time spot), but Stork has been a top player for a long time (and probably would have won more titles if not for the fact that he was up against only the very best of players in the finals).
Sounds like you're saying MSL > OSL. I thought OSL was always valued more than MSL. Why is MSL format more hurtful to protoss players btw? Curious to know  I still don't know why some people keep saying he has one lucky dual title streak. Is it because he got another chance to get into OSL 2011 after being out? He had to play through leta, zero and classic, all pretty decent and strong players to even get into the dual tournament then playing players like Calm, Baby, Shuttle, Flash, Fantasy etc... to finally win is lucky? cmon, I can understand if the reason was that some of the players were starting to play SCII on the side but even then, still feels like you're taking away from his wins a bit too much by saying it was lucky.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On September 04 2013 16:48 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 16:33 LegalLord wrote:
Bisu is #1. No one can seriously contest this point.
Nal_rA is #2. His influence on P play is pretty significant and long-standing, and he was very consistent. Plus he's the only Protoss other than Bisu with an MSL title, and I don't think that P's weakness in the MSL is a coincidence (the format hurts P more).
Stork is #3 and Jangbi is #4, but they're pretty close. I'd say Stork edges him out because of consistency. Jangbi had extremely long suck streaks followed by one lucky dual title streak (which nevertheless is impressive enough to earn him a #4 of all time spot), but Stork has been a top player for a long time (and probably would have won more titles if not for the fact that he was up against only the very best of players in the finals). Sounds like you're saying MSL > OSL. I thought OSL was always valued more than MSL. Why is MSL format more hurtful to protoss players btw? Curious to know I still don't know why some people keep saying he has one lucky dual title streak. Is it because he got another chance to get into OSL 2011 after being out? He had to play through leta, zero and classic, all pretty decent and strong players to even get into the dual tournament then playing players like Calm, Baby, Shuttle, Flash, Fantasy etc... to finally win is lucky? cmon, I can understand if the reason was that some of the players were starting to play SCII on the side but even then, still feels like you're taking away from his wins a bit too much by saying it was lucky.
Yeah, I'm not getting why he's calling it lucky either. It's not like he had easy draws or his opponents played terrible. Overall, I think people are putting too much stock into wins/loses/opponents (even though Jangbi had very respectable opponents in his OSLs imo). And fail to look at their actual level of play in those games. Looking at Jangbi's play in his OSLs, I don't think anyone can call it lucky, he simply played brilliantly, and had BW continued I don't think anyone could have reasonably expected him to drop back into obscurity after those OSLs due to only winning them through 'luck'. His play, imo more than anything, legitimised those wins as well deserved, more so than the competition he faced.
I think it is also the crux of why most people place Bisu over Stork. While Bisu was more clutch in finals, stork has had a longer and far more consistent career. And while Bisu has always had that bit of inconsistency, and effectively dropped off the starleagues late in his career, leading many like Koreasilver to dismiss him as being no longer relevant, but looking at his actual level of play, one could easily see that he was nowhere near irrelevant and was in fact maintaining overall, a far superior level of play than Stork.
This is also why these lists tend to be biased towards more recent players. They may or may not have been more talented, more creative etc than older players, we will never know because they weren't in their primes in the same time/situation and never will be.
But their level of understanding and execution is vastly superior to those of older players. While this could be entirely predicated on the accumulated work of the older players before them, without whom it would not have been possible, this is also precisely why they were playing at an OBJECTIVELY higher level of play than their predecessors. They have more experience/development to draw from, they have better mechanics, and they had more refined builds, tactics, and little tricks to work with. They may arguably not have been better players, but they were playing at an unarguably better level of play.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 04 2013 17:07 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 16:48 BigFan wrote:On September 04 2013 16:33 LegalLord wrote:
Bisu is #1. No one can seriously contest this point.
Nal_rA is #2. His influence on P play is pretty significant and long-standing, and he was very consistent. Plus he's the only Protoss other than Bisu with an MSL title, and I don't think that P's weakness in the MSL is a coincidence (the format hurts P more).
Stork is #3 and Jangbi is #4, but they're pretty close. I'd say Stork edges him out because of consistency. Jangbi had extremely long suck streaks followed by one lucky dual title streak (which nevertheless is impressive enough to earn him a #4 of all time spot), but Stork has been a top player for a long time (and probably would have won more titles if not for the fact that he was up against only the very best of players in the finals). Sounds like you're saying MSL > OSL. I thought OSL was always valued more than MSL. Why is MSL format more hurtful to protoss players btw? Curious to know I still don't know why some people keep saying he has one lucky dual title streak. Is it because he got another chance to get into OSL 2011 after being out? He had to play through leta, zero and classic, all pretty decent and strong players to even get into the dual tournament then playing players like Calm, Baby, Shuttle, Flash, Fantasy etc... to finally win is lucky? cmon, I can understand if the reason was that some of the players were starting to play SCII on the side but even then, still feels like you're taking away from his wins a bit too much by saying it was lucky. Yeah, I'm not getting why he's calling it lucky either. It's not like he had easy draws or his opponents played terrible. Overall, I think people are putting too much stock into wins/loses/opponents (even though Jangbi had very respectable opponents in his OSLs imo). And fail to look at their actual level of play in those games. Looking at Jangbi's play in his OSLs, I don't think anyone can call it lucky, he simply played brilliantly, and had BW continued I don't think anyone could have reasonably expected him to drop back into obscurity after those OSLs due to only winning them through 'luck'. His play, imo more than anything, legitimised those wins as well deserved, more so than the competition he faced. I think it is also the crux of why most people place Bisu over Stork. While Bisu was more clutch in finals, stork has had a longer and far more consistent career. And while Bisu has always had that bit of inconsistency, and effectively dropped off the starleagues late in his career, leading many like Koreasilver to dismiss him as being no longer relevant, but looking at his actual level of play, one could easily see that he was nowhere near irrelevant and was in fact maintaining overall, a far superior level of play than Stork.
ya, his game against Baby in the tiebreakers where he maximized the use of dts were really impressive. He pretty much turned around the game when he was on par base wise. Heck, Baby actually had turrets with siege tanks and spider mines planted because he scouted Jangbi's tech path with his SCV yet Jangbi still killed so many SCVs, killed 2-3 tanks and wrecked havoc in his base and what does he do during that? Takes a third, saturates it then proceeds to take a fourth later on and eventually gets a huge supply lead. He could've a-moved into Baby's army if he wanted to(not advisable but if he's lazy) and then just macro'd and a moved again to win the game.
His storms against Calm were the reason he advanced from the tiebreakers and he took advantage of Calm's non-aggressive gameplay to grab a third, macro up then stormed him out of OSL 2011. Both great games that displayed his skills and adaptability imo. Only complaints I had was that he wasn't very aggressive against Calm(it probably wasn't a good idea considering he lost to him previously) and against baby, he had a bit of miscontrol and ran his army away from siege tanks only to lose several dragoons. Not a big deal though considering he was way up in supply(60-70 or so).
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 04 2013 16:48 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 16:33 LegalLord wrote:
Bisu is #1. No one can seriously contest this point.
Nal_rA is #2. His influence on P play is pretty significant and long-standing, and he was very consistent. Plus he's the only Protoss other than Bisu with an MSL title, and I don't think that P's weakness in the MSL is a coincidence (the format hurts P more).
Stork is #3 and Jangbi is #4, but they're pretty close. I'd say Stork edges him out because of consistency. Jangbi had extremely long suck streaks followed by one lucky dual title streak (which nevertheless is impressive enough to earn him a #4 of all time spot), but Stork has been a top player for a long time (and probably would have won more titles if not for the fact that he was up against only the very best of players in the finals). Sounds like you're saying MSL > OSL. I thought OSL was always valued more than MSL. Why is MSL format more hurtful to protoss players btw? Curious to know I still don't know why some people keep saying he has one lucky dual title streak. Is it because he got another chance to get into OSL 2011 after being out? He had to play through leta, zero and classic, all pretty decent and strong players to even get into the dual tournament then playing players like Calm, Baby, Shuttle, Flash, Fantasy etc... to finally win is lucky? cmon, I can understand if the reason was that some of the players were starting to play SCII on the side but even then, still feels like you're taking away from his wins a bit too much by saying it was lucky.
By lucky I do not mean that it was a fluke. I only mean that between SC2, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu being less successful than usual, and Fantasy's choking tendency (and VERY favorable maps in OSL#2), he had a fair bit of windfall in his favor. He did still get there though, which is impressive in its own right. Contrast to, for example, Stork, who faced top opponents in their prime for pretty every SL that he got to at least the semifinals in.
I can't really tell you why MSL is harder than OSL for P, I only have speculation. But I don't think that the disparity between the two is a coincidence, nor do I think that it's a coincidence that only #1 and #2 (or #3 if you think Stork is #2) top Protoss have ever won one, while a few random winners do exist for OSL.
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I've like everyone to take a step back and breathe and realize what an amazing thread this has become - a place where "BW veterans" can discuss the truly glorious days of BW (and with a Protoss bias too, which works for me). Loving the discussion!
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EPT
