Jangbi in all-time protoss ranking? - Page 10

On September 04 2013 10:17 Letmelose wrote:


sAviOr was no doubt overrated, especially due to the storyline that can be drawn from his dramatic career. If you take a step back from the glorious and painful moments that surrounded his legacy, and actually take a closer, unbiased look into his actual performances as a player, you'll find that his actual results aren't as grand as one might expect. Of course, nothing can take away the glorious heights that he achieved, but in the overall picture, Jaedong overshadows him by a massive margin, while other zerg greats such as July, and YellOw are not a step below him in the general picture like most imagine them to be in my opinion. I can go in more detail over this, but as this would be deviating far too much from the original topic, I'll stop here. Before you feel the urge to defend your fallen hero, please take a step back, go over every detail of his career, not just the magical moments that is so precious in your memories, and paint a picture in your mind of the actual player, not conjure up a mythical figure drawn up from several moments of unforgettable performances.

As for Stork and Bisu. I actually don't really differentiate the two as being a step above the other, but here's my attempt at playing the devil's advocate.

Stork was better than Bisu in individual leagues, and if you're going by the logic that only first place finishes count, I'd like to see you try to argue that Hydra was a greater than YellOw. Here's why, from a post I wrote before in this thread.

Stork has managed to succeed in reaching the round of sixteen 23 times in his career, with a sucess rate of almost 66%. In comparison, Bisu was far more erratic, and more prone to failure, only managing to reach the round of sixteen 14 times, failing to do so the other 15 times in his career (take a moment to let this sink in, Bisu failed to do that more than 50%). In fact, Stork has a clear leverage over Bisu over every single stage possible in the individual leagues, including appearances in the finals. The only thing Bisu has over Stork is that he was more clutch in the finals, and of course, that is what gets remembered, hence the media hype that surrounds the several moments that Bisu actually shined. However, depending on how you weigh the other stages, it is way too easy to rank Stork above Bisu in the individual leagues. In the post where I weighed each round as being worth twice as more points than the previous round (if round of 16 is worth 1 pt, then the round of 8 is worth 2 pts, and such and such), Stork has more overall points in his overall career compared to Bisu.

As for the ProLeague, you're focusing too much on the two seasons worth of performances that Bisu rocked the world in. Every single ProLeague had differing number of available games, and by quoting overall numbers, you are invalidating every single performance that took place before the massive inflation in the number of games available. I'll actually be more accomadating to Bisu, and exclude any ProLeague performances by Stork that Bisu did not himself play in (including Stork's performance in 2005 SKY ProLeague R1 where he got joint-first place in terms of wins during the regular season).

Will fill in any details, if the performances were worth anything (I'm not going to spend time whether Bisu was 34th best, or 37th in the seasons he was miserably mediocre in).

2005 SKY ProLeague R2
Stork: 10 wins 7 losses (3rd overall in terms of number of wins, the highest in his team, team finishes 2nd)
Bisu: 2 wins 1 loss

2006 SKY ProLeague R2
Stork: 3 wins 4 losses
Bisu: 5 wins 4 losses (12th overall, 4th highest in his team, team finishes 1st)

2007 Shinhan ProLeague R1
Stork: 16 wins 4 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
Bisu: 6 wins 7 losses

2007 Shinhan ProLeague R2
Stork: 15 wins 6 losses (2nd overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 4 wins 3 losses

2008 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 12 wins 8 losses (9th overall, 3rd highest in his team, team finishes 1st)
Bisu: 6 wins 9 losses

2008~2009 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 30 wins 22 losses (joint-15th overall, joint-highest in his team)
Bisu: 53 wins 14 losses (3rd overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)

2009~2010 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 31 wins 20 losses (11th overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 23 wins 20 losses (22nd overall, 2nd highest in his team, team finishes 2nd)

2010~2011 Shinhan ProLeague
Stork: 43 wins 29 losses (6th overall, the highest in his team)
Bisu: 66 wins 15 losses (1st overall, the highest in his team, team finishes 1st)

Excluding ANY season of Stork's where Bisu failed to participate in, that's eight separate ProLeague seasons, five of which Stork has outperformed Bisu in. Even if you count the year long seasons worth twice as much due to their length, Stork still comes out on top (4 half-year seasons where he was better, and 1 full-year season where he was better).

In fact, Stork has pretty much been responsible for the entire success of his team, whether he was on form or not, excluding the few seasons where Jangbi came into his own. Whereas Bisu was never a factor in his old team, MBC Game Heroes, and only was the main player for his team, SK Telecom T1, in 2008~2009, and 2010~2011 seasons. As marvelous, and stupendously great as these two performances were, it does not make up for years of ProLeague mediocrity in my eyes. Sure, Bisu took advantage of the inflated numbers during the final years of the ProLeague, and boosted his numbers, and credits where it's due, Bisu was indeed fantastic when he was clicking. That's the point though, are you only going to remember his finest hour, just like the media? I thought we were arguing about the overall picture, not cherry picking a player's finest moments?

Want to go over other tournaments? Stork has managed to represent Korea in the WCG (longest running tournament outside of the three major tournaments discussed above), a record-breaking three times. Bisu has managed to represent it in one, and got stomped by Jaedong in the Grand Finals to get that single bronze medal, whereas Stork has all three medals to his name. Bisu did win that GomTV Classic S2, but despite the kindly recollection that tournament gets in Team Liquid mainly due to its English coverage, it was WAY down in terms of priorities in the general consesus of things, whereas WCG qualification was one of the most important things going on during the off-season (whereas GomTV Classic clogged up the schedule and was never taken as seriously as the KeSPA sanctioned leagues).

So to sums things up, Stork was in my eyes, statistically superior to Bisu in terms of individual league performances, was way more relevant in the ProLeague, as well as being a more influential figure in his team (in terms of gaming performance, not the fan girl he brings), and was more present in any off-season performances. Bisu, to his credit, was superior in MSL, reached higher heights in the ProLeague after years of being a non-factor for his teams, and is credited with "saving" the metagame of PvZ match-up. To be honest with you, I think Pusan was just as influential as Bisu in terms of influencing the metagame (with a different match-up, but his influence was massive), but his name is hardly mentioned, which really does make me wonder how much of Bisu's legacy is media-induced, and how much of it is truly his. The media REALLY wanted this guy to be the post-Boxer (had the looks, the skills, and the fan-base), like they tried it with sAviOr, but really, in the process, ended up sugar-coating their stories way too much, and now literally EVERYONE thinks that they're a cut above players who were in my personal opinion just as great as they were as players (not media figures, just looking at the substance, not the headlines created by the media).

On September 09 2013 01:40 Erasme wrote:
While it's an extraordinary feat that jangbi won 2osl back to back, i still firmly believe that fantasy was the better player.