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thezanursic
5497 Posts
On August 30 2013 16:50 endy wrote: 1.Bisu (3 MSL gold + GOMTv gold + Proleague Monster + PvZ revolutionist) Throw the two IEFs in for the good measure. (He beat Stork in the finals of both IEFs) | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 04 2013 17:17 LegalLord wrote: By lucky I do not mean that it was a fluke. I only mean that between SC2, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu being less successful than usual, and Fantasy's choking tendency (and VERY favorable maps in OSL#2), he had a fair bit of windfall in his favor. He did still get there though, which is impressive in its own right. Contrast to, for example, Stork, who faced top opponents in their prime for pretty every SL that he got to at least the semifinals in. I can't really tell you why MSL is harder than OSL for P, I only have speculation. But I don't think that the disparity between the two is a coincidence, nor do I think that it's a coincidence that only #1 and #2 (or #3 if you think Stork is #2) top Protoss have ever won one, while a few random winners do exist for OSL. cmon, you can't expect every player to perform 100% for everything but I disagree. Flash, Fantasy and Jaedong played beautifully in the OSL(2011 at least). I would advise you to take a look at the Jaedong vs Flash game, it's in the RO24. The same group that had Bogus and Hyuk. You can't seriously tell me after seeing that game that either of them was being less successful than usual or rather playing worse than usual. They were both playing like beasts! Bisu never had much success in OSL so I don't see that as a valid argument. Take a look several posts above mine about Fantasy in 2012 OSL. Look at the praise he got for his tactical games against Flash. Sorry, I still don't buy your argument. You didn't really give me any reason to believe that any one of them played worse than usual which meant that Jangbi had an easier time winning etc... btw Flash crushed Stork in their TvP effectively helping knock him out of RO16 with the help of Shine and he did it pretty easily imo so either Stork played badly or Flash just played brilliantly, your pick  On September 05 2013 02:43 OpticalShot wrote: I've like everyone to take a step back and breathe and realize what an amazing thread this has become - a place where "BW veterans" can discuss the truly glorious days of BW (and with a Protoss bias too, which works for me). Loving the discussion! you should join in | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On September 04 2013 17:17 LegalLord wrote: By lucky I do not mean that it was a fluke. I only mean that between SC2, Flash/Jaedong/Bisu being less successful than usual, and Fantasy's choking tendency (and VERY favorable maps in OSL#2), he had a fair bit of windfall in his favor. He did still get there though, which is impressive in its own right. Contrast to, for example, Stork, who faced top opponents in their prime for pretty every SL that he got to at least the semifinals in. I can't really tell you why MSL is harder than OSL for P, I only have speculation. But I don't think that the disparity between the two is a coincidence, nor do I think that it's a coincidence that only #1 and #2 (or #3 if you think Stork is #2) top Protoss have ever won one, while a few random winners do exist for OSL. Eh, I can't really agree. So even if the TBLS hegemony was kinda gone, it's not like there weren't really, really talented and strong players around at the time. Jangbi had to go through Killer, Flash and Fantasy in 2011. In 2012 he had to go through Flash, Action, Zero, and Fantasy. All these players are pretty well known for the ZvP and TvP matchups. Just the fact that he beat Flash and Fantasy in both years to win the tournaments is pretty immense, and both Flash and Fantasy were continuing to play like monsters to the end of BW (Fantasy in particular was playing some of the best games of his career). Jangbi was playing some of the best players in the history of the game at their prime, namely Fantasy and Zero, and these players were known for eating Protoss players alive (Zero was a ZvP monster in the finals years of BW). In the last year Jangbi was probably the pinnacle of the history of Protoss development. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
- Maps being total shit for Protoss until circa 2006/7 (e.g. Mercury) - Following from the first point, forge-fe couldn't be used on most maps making PvZ very hard - Drastically less games played each week (split proleague, less games per match, etc.) - Significantly less protoss at the top tier of competition - Different approach to training While Bisu is often credited with 'revolutionising' PvZ the extent of his innovation was really just a simple extension of existing trends within PvZ (and moreover, had already been employed by earlier progamers). But to Bisu's credit, the game had been so figured out at that point in time that true innovation was exceedingly rare and he did illustrate just how effective forge fe - stargate was as an opening. Stork has had a continual influence on the Protoss metagame, beginning with his pioneering of Arbiter in PvT usage in 2005 (along with Pusan) and continued with his normalisation of reavers in PvT amongst other things. So while less decorated, Stork arguably has had a greater influence on Protoss strategy (albeit, more subtle and over a longer period of time). Nal_ra/Reach similarly did a lot for Protoss. Nal_ra pioneered the Sair/Reaver style in addition to being an all around strategic genius. Reach was, for a long time, the only Protoss placing in tournaments and consequently was another significant source of protoss innovation. While both of these legends were less decorated, their influence cannot be discounted. | ||
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OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
Jangbi, learning from the great master, also used it occasionally like in that g5 against Fantasy in that Legend of the Fall OSL. Good times. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On September 05 2013 08:30 koreasilver wrote: Eh, I can't really agree. So even if the TBLS hegemony was kinda gone, it's not like there weren't really, really talented and strong players around at the time. Jangbi had to go through Killer, Flash and Fantasy in 2011. In 2012 he had to go through Flash, Action, Zero, and Fantasy. All these players are pretty well known for the ZvP and TvP matchups. Just the fact that he beat Flash and Fantasy in both years to win the tournaments is pretty immense, and both Flash and Fantasy were continuing to play like monsters to the end of BW (Fantasy in particular was playing some of the best games of his career). Jangbi was playing some of the best players in the history of the game at their prime, namely Fantasy and Zero, and these players were known for eating Protoss players alive (Zero was a ZvP monster in the finals years of BW). In the last year Jangbi was probably the pinnacle of the history of Protoss development. There's a pretty clear pattern there: weaker zergs, less protoss, and the strongest players are terran. Beating Flash and Fantasy is no small feat, but it's a PvT feat if that's all his run was good for. We all know that Jangbi has an excellent PvT, arguably better than Stork's, but if that's all he has then he might as well be a Protoss Casy. Killer and Action do not qualify as top-tier zergs (I wouldn't say that either of them were favored against Jangbi). Zero does, but he also is known for his choking. And his choking tendency is precisely the reason why Jangbi won - remember, he very nearly got crushed by Zero, who ended up throwing 2 games in a row after one bad loss. Does he deserve credit for winning that? Yes. But it's still no Jaedong. Here's the other thing: Jangbi has a god awful record against both Bisu and Jaedong. He lost 2 finals against Bisu and overall has a 4-10 record against him. He has also never taken an official game against Jaedong. When it comes to players who are indisputably top-tier, he only shines in PvT (the "easy" matchup for protoss). Stork doesn't have that same problem, neither does Nal_rA (arguably with the exception of vs. iloveoov during his dominant years). Jangbi is a PvT master, and the stars aligned in his favor for both OSLs. Two wins like that did earn him a place in the ranks of top protoss, but it's still quite clear he got lucky. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On September 05 2013 12:53 koreasilver wrote: At that point Killer was on the rise and both Killer and Action were regarded to have strong ZvPs. They might not have had the reputation that someone like Jaedong does, but disregarding them off hand is pretty inane, honestly. If PvT was the only matchup that Jangbi "shone" in then he wouldn't have beaten Zero who might have had the strongest ZvP in the scene at the time. You don't just luck your way through like that - if we're going to consider that as lucking your way through then you could say that to pretty much anyone. thanks. Your post did a much better job explaining just how difficult it was for Jangbi to win not one but two OSLs back to back considering the level of his opponents  | ||
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saltywet
Hong Kong1316 Posts
you can do the exact same for bisu by saying that he got lucky in his MSLs by avoiding top-tier terrans and playing the ones who are shit-tier in TvP (the likes of firebathero, light and hwasin in all of his MSL wins) and beating zergs with a new unsolved build that could only be beaten by all-ins (which could be blocked if scouted). | ||
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metzninja
New Zealand626 Posts
On September 05 2013 11:55 LegalLord wrote: There's a pretty clear pattern there: weaker zergs, less protoss, and the strongest players are terran. Beating Flash and Fantasy is no small feat, but it's a PvT feat if that's all his run was good for. We all know that Jangbi has an excellent PvT, arguably better than Stork's, but if that's all he has then he might as well be a Protoss Casy. Killer and Action do not qualify as top-tier zergs (I wouldn't say that either of them were favored against Jangbi). Zero does, but he also is known for his choking. And his choking tendency is precisely the reason why Jangbi won - remember, he very nearly got crushed by Zero, who ended up throwing 2 games in a row after one bad loss. Does he deserve credit for winning that? Yes. But it's still no Jaedong. Here's the other thing: Jangbi has a god awful record against both Bisu and Jaedong. He lost 2 finals against Bisu and overall has a 4-10 record against him. He has also never taken an official game against Jaedong. When it comes to players who are indisputably top-tier, he only shines in PvT (the "easy" matchup for protoss). Stork doesn't have that same problem, neither does Nal_rA (arguably with the exception of vs. iloveoov during his dominant years). Jangbi is a PvT master, and the stars aligned in his favor for both OSLs. Two wins like that did earn him a place in the ranks of top protoss, but it's still quite clear he got lucky. How can you think that ZerO threw two games against JangBi? Yes, ZerO sacced a few too many lurkers trying to drop in game 4, but he was trying to buy time for his spire to complete so he could snipe obs. Also, ZerO played well in game 5, but all his efforts to stall JangBi's expansions were handled perfectly (like the attacks on 3 and 10:30). JangBi deserved that win and beat one of the two best ZvPers of the time to get it. (Hydra was more consistent, but ZerO had more capacity for greatness. Speaking of Killer, his ZvP was better and more reliable than JD's at that time.) If you're going to bring bias into the equation, let's look at Bisu's MSL finals appearances and focus on his weakness, PvT. S1: Iris, Canata, Hwasin and Light. Three terrible TvP players, with only Iris being a good scalp. S2: Freedom, Light, Hwasin. Two terrible TvPers and a rookie. S3: Flash, oov, Hwasin, XellOs, loss to Mind. Only good result was against Flash, XellOs being well past his prime. ClubDay: Hwasin, fbh. Need I say more? Notice how this could be spun into lies about Bisu getting lucky or Bisu having bad PvT, when neither of these statements are remotely true. Let's go back to some more facts. JangBi vs dragons: Stork: 5-0 free: 5-1 Kal: 10-6 Best: 1-3 Bisu: 4-10 25-20 or 56% Bisu vs dragons: Stork: 9-15 free: 10-9 Kal: 6-7 Best: 3-0 JangBi: 10-4 38-35 or 52% Also, it's worth noting that JangBi and Bisu have similar winrates against other good PvPers of the modern era (Stats, Violet, Horang2, Shuttle). So I find your assertion that JangBi was lucky to be baseless, because he was certainly capable in all three matchups, just as Bisu was. Each was godlike in one matchup. Even alluding to a "protoss Casy" shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. | ||
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Invidentia
Denmark30 Posts
On September 05 2013 16:44 metzninja wrote: How can you think that ZerO threw two games against JangBi? Yes, ZerO sacced a few too many lurkers trying to drop in game 4, but he was trying to buy time for his spire to complete so he could snipe obs. Also, ZerO played well in game 5, but all his efforts to stall JangBi's expansions were handled perfectly (like the attacks on 3 and 10:30). JangBi deserved that win and beat one of the two best ZvPers of the time to get it. (Hydra was more consistent, but ZerO had more capacity for greatness. Speaking of Killer, his ZvP was better and more reliable than JD's at that time.) If you're going to bring bias into the equation, let's look at Bisu's MSL finals appearances and focus on his weakness, PvT. S1: Iris, Canata, Hwasin and Light. Three terrible TvP players, with only Iris being a good scalp. S2: Freedom, Light, Hwasin. Two terrible TvPers and a rookie. S3: Flash, oov, Hwasin, XellOs, loss to Mind. Only good result was against Flash, XellOs being well past his prime. ClubDay: Hwasin, fbh. Need I say more? Notice how this could be spun into lies about Bisu getting lucky or Bisu having bad PvT, when neither of these statements are remotely true. Let's go back to some more facts. JangBi vs dragons: Stork: 5-0 free: 5-1 Kal: 10-6 Best: 1-3 Bisu: 4-10 25-20 or 56% Bisu vs dragons: Stork: 9-15 free: 10-9 Kal: 6-7 Best: 3-0 JangBi: 10-4 38-35 or 52% Also, it's worth noting that JangBi and Bisu have similar winrates against other good PvPers of the modern era (Stats, Violet, Horang2, Shuttle). So I find your assertion that JangBi was lucky to be baseless, because he was certainly capable in all three matchups, just as Bisu was. Each was godlike in one matchup. Even alluding to a "protoss Casy" shows that you have no idea what you're talking about. So much win in a single post... | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
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metzninja
New Zealand626 Posts
On September 05 2013 17:49 Caladbolg wrote: Jangbi wasn't lucky, and is definitely within the top 5, arguably top 3, but to denigrate Bisu's accomplishments in his period of individual league dominance (MSLs, 4 finals 3 wins) in a less random format doesn't help anyone's case. Letmelose already presented the BEST argument of how Bisu could possibly have a rival at number 1, but it's an argument, and one not popularly shared. I still believe that Nal Ra is being thrown under the bus by some people here because his relative performace (vis a vis his Protoss brethren) was theoretically even better than Bisu's. So while I still maintain that it's 1. Bisu 2. Nal Ra 3. Stork in that order, it's much closer than the Terran and Zerg top 3 which would be 1. Flash 2. Oov/Nada 3. Boxer and 1. Jaedong 2. Savior 3. Julyzerg I agree with Bisu being the most accomplished protoss and holder of the top position in the pantheon. The only reason I showed the terrans he faced in his MSL runs was to show that it is possible to make excuses for just about every individual league victory, and how LegalLord's bias against JangBi was very unfair | ||
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purgerinho
Croatia919 Posts
and bisu has special place in my heart because he ended dominance of my favorite zerg of all time (savior).. so, he is the best for me.. place in my heart is reserved for rainbow, nal ra, anytime, pusan and STORK.. i was always kind of far away from reach but if I would look without heart then it is jangbi because he had so much great players on the other side, more than anyone.. and that last OSL... everyone wanted to win it but he did it.. so, jangbi is #1 for me | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On September 05 2013 08:57 Plexa wrote: Stork has had a continual influence on the Protoss metagame, beginning with his pioneering of Arbiter in PvT usage in 2005 (along with Pusan) and continued with his normalisation of reavers in PvT amongst other things. So while less decorated, Stork arguably has had a greater influence on Protoss strategy (albeit, more subtle and over a longer period of time). I also think Stork is underrated in terms of developing the protoss race over the year, especially in PvT. I don't watch enough games nor know enough Korean to truly understand which is tactics he should get credit for. But it does seem like a lot of trendy builds started with him. A lot of reaver/carrier/12 Nex builds seems to have come from Stork. | ||
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zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
performance wise, we could say he was on the pinnacle of protoss strategy and execution... pardon me but stork chocked against terrans on semis/finals... i suppose... | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
You'd be crazy to think that luck has nothing to do with a win though. Players will simply do better if they get more favorable and less unfavorable matchups in their favor, and Jangbi is no different (on the flip side for Jangbi, being trumped twice by Bisu isn't especially lucky). That said, winners are not flukes (silvers might be, but not golds). At the end of the day, Jangbi might be the best PvT around at his peak, and that's definitely something. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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