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On March 14 2013 11:56 traceurling wrote:
None of te BWMN guys really expected this one to make the cut, the author made it to introduce the force field mechanics to everyone but he didn't expect too much balance from it...the ramps are annoying-ish but I wouldn't say they're super wide...they look slightly bigger than Chain Reaction's to me...
The map feature is really interesting and I hope that map makers use it more...
Are the mapmakers actually capable of making their own terrain?
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On March 15 2013 06:59 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2013 11:56 traceurling wrote:
None of te BWMN guys really expected this one to make the cut, the author made it to introduce the force field mechanics to everyone but he didn't expect too much balance from it...the ramps are annoying-ish but I wouldn't say they're super wide...they look slightly bigger than Chain Reaction's to me... The map feature is really interesting and I hope that map makers use it more... Are the mapmakers actually capable of making their own terrain?
what do you exactly mean by "own terrain" ?
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Some doodad tiles have properties such as blocking vision (for ground units) or providing cover (also for ground units).
And some of them are completely passable (i.e. units can walk all over them), so you can use those to get some neat effects...
But for details I'd prefer to refer you to a complete guide I wrote about this on BWMN, so I do not need to type it all up again  [and it has even been linked before by traceurling, so read it if you really want to know]
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On March 15 2013 07:31 Freakling wrote:Some doodad tiles have properties such as blocking vision (for ground units) or providing cover (also for ground units). And some of them are completely passable (i.e. units can walk all over them), so you can use those to get some neat effects... But for details I'd prefer to refer you to a complete guide I wrote about this on BWMN, so I do not need to type it all up again [and it has even been linked before by traceurling, so read it if you really want to know]
I read it and I started asking myself, Why don't the mapmakers make terrain that suits their purpose.
I mean I've seen a lot of custom unit models (basically all SC2 remade and a couple hero units etc etc). If making custom models is possible wouldn't making terrain be possible to?
Or are you just unable to launch maps with new "custom" terrain without changing the game version somehow?
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You could certainly change tile properties in the StarCraft data files, or change the bitmaps to make terrain look differently, or whatever. But a map using that would require a mod to launch to work properly and hence not be a proper melee map any more.
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On March 15 2013 07:48 Freakling wrote:
You could certainly change tile properties in the StarCraft data files, or change the bitmaps to make terrain look differently, or whatever. But a map using that would require a mod to launch to work properly and hence not be a proper melee map any more.
I am kind of angry at Blizzard, right now for not patching that over the course of the 10 years that they were bug fixing the game.
I mean doing the above could have possibly taken mapmaking to a whole new level.
One more question: Can you use more than a single tile set on a single map?
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No. The tileset is just a variable specified somewhere in the map header.
SCMDraft has an option to change the tileset of a map, which basically does only changes that setting and keeps the tile indices for the map terrain. However, since not all tileset palettes match up, you can end up with a mess. Jungle, Desert, Twilight and Ice convert into each other though (having basically the same terrain structure... Although sunken/raised ground is water on ice maps, for example...)
If you really want to be angry at blizzard, be angry about them never fixing bugged terrain levels for many ramps, which effectively prevents the use of terrain types such as High Outpost, high sunken ground or high high Compound....
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On March 15 2013 08:02 Freakling wrote:
No. The tileset is just a variable specified somewhere in the map header.
SCMDraft has an option to change the tileset of a map, which basically does only changes that setting and keeps the tile indices for the map terrain. However, since not all tileset palettes match up, you can end up with a mess. Jungle, Desert, Twilight and Ice convert into each other though (having basically the same terrain structure... Although sunken/raised ground is water on ice maps, for example...)
If you really want to be angry at blizzard, be angry about them never fixing bugged terrain levels for many ramps, which effectively prevents the use of terrain types such as High Outpost, high sunken ground or high high Compound....
Any chance you could explain why these terrain types are bugged? You seem to be really knowledgable about the editor and its pretty interesting. Or is there a resource where I can read these things?
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On March 16 2013 00:57 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 08:02 Freakling wrote:
No. The tileset is just a variable specified somewhere in the map header.
SCMDraft has an option to change the tileset of a map, which basically does only changes that setting and keeps the tile indices for the map terrain. However, since not all tileset palettes match up, you can end up with a mess. Jungle, Desert, Twilight and Ice convert into each other though (having basically the same terrain structure... Although sunken/raised ground is water on ice maps, for example...)
If you really want to be angry at blizzard, be angry about them never fixing bugged terrain levels for many ramps, which effectively prevents the use of terrain types such as High Outpost, high sunken ground or high high Compound.... Any chance you could explain why these terrain types are bugged? You seem to be really knowledgable about the editor and its pretty interesting. Or is there a resource where I can read these things?
Freakling is your resource... I'm confident when I say his knowledge of BW Mapping is unmatched in the world, even by Korean mappers...
Also my guess is because of the absence of reversed ramps provided by blizzard forces mappers to make their own ramps, but for those terrain types it's impossible for some reason to make nonbugged ramps? Just my guess though, Freakling will prolly know...
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On March 16 2013 01:07 traceurling wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2013 00:57 thezanursic wrote:On March 15 2013 08:02 Freakling wrote:
No. The tileset is just a variable specified somewhere in the map header.
SCMDraft has an option to change the tileset of a map, which basically does only changes that setting and keeps the tile indices for the map terrain. However, since not all tileset palettes match up, you can end up with a mess. Jungle, Desert, Twilight and Ice convert into each other though (having basically the same terrain structure... Although sunken/raised ground is water on ice maps, for example...)
If you really want to be angry at blizzard, be angry about them never fixing bugged terrain levels for many ramps, which effectively prevents the use of terrain types such as High Outpost, high sunken ground or high high Compound.... Any chance you could explain why these terrain types are bugged? You seem to be really knowledgable about the editor and its pretty interesting. Or is there a resource where I can read these things? Freakling is your resource... I'm confident when I say his knowledge of BW Mapping is unmatched in the world, even by Korean mappers... Also my guess is because of the absence of reversed ramps provided by blizzard forces mappers to make their own ramps, but for those terrain types it's impossible for some reason to make nonbugged ramps? Just my guess though, Freakling will prolly know...
By bugged ramps do you mean the 2 small unit size ramps?
because even with that issue you could still make fairly balanced maps with flatground and wider ramps used for other purposes AND has KESPA ever tried making maps on those tilesets?
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I believe he means ramps where the high ground low ground thing is messed up with weird vision and miss chances...and unit pathing...idk well wait for Freakling to explain everything 
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Those ramps consist of low ground tiles, though they connect medium to high ground. More or less blind units (they can see the ramp, but not the surroundings), that miss half their shots, ensue...
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On March 16 2013 01:30 traceurling wrote:I believe he means ramps where the high ground low ground thing is messed up with weird vision and miss chances...and unit pathing...idk well wait for Freakling to explain everything
I know non standard blizzard ramps are usually like that cause they're actually a buncha different terrains combined together to make the ramp go a way that wasnti n the actual blizzard thing..
i remember reading that somewhere
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Canada11572 Posts
I finally downloaded 2.5 and was trying out and was playing some of these maps... how do you FFE PvZ on Luna the Final in the top left position o_O The ramp is so far forward compared to the natural nexus that it takes 3 gateways and a forge to wall it off vertically and diagonally can't protect the expansion and the ramp at the same time without about an equal number of buildings or leaving a massive attack path for runbys.
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On March 16 2013 15:39 Falling wrote:
I finally downloaded 2.5 and was trying out and was playing some of these maps... how do you FFE PvZ on Luna the Final in the top left position o_O The ramp is so far forward compared to the natural nexus that it takes 3 gateways and a forge to wall it off vertically and diagonally can't protect the expansion and the ramp at the same time without about an equal number of buildings or leaving a massive attack path for runbys.
Luna was before FFE was invented right? Or was popular so it wasn't part of metagame...iCCup prolly keeps Luna because it's a classical map in SC history...just 1 base play or 2 gate opening
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Canada11572 Posts
Ok, I assumed that 2.5 would only have modern maps seems as they were getting rid of Triathalon and Troy. It really did seem like an old school map.
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On March 16 2013 15:55 Falling wrote:
Ok, I assumed that 2.5 would only have modern maps seems as they were getting rid of Triathalon and Troy. It really did seem like an old school map.
Ya just go like 2gate or 1gate tech in that base prolly. you can FFE at the other bases pretty safely i think, bottom right is esp nice for it.
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EPT
