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A request for Brood War event managers - Page 3

Forum Index > BW General
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hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
September 06 2012 18:50 GMT
#41
I have found help for time zone conversion! I used to have 3 clocks on my computer (local, KST, and CET) but now I just have http://everytimezone.com/ bookmarked... I hope it can be of some use to you!
Please PM me with any songs you like that you think I haven't heard before!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
September 06 2012 19:27 GMT
#42
You can't just go "Here's what I think you guys should do...", but you have to be part of the process. Nobody is going to take the initiative for you, unless they're extremely motivated. All I see coming out of this is organizers pointing fingers at each other and going "They're not up to snuff, I keep my tours organized better than anyone." Anyone who is able to point out potential problems with the "scene", but isn't proactive in creating solutions to those problems is, unfortunately, not helpful to the community. I'm not saying that organizers aren't above criticism or accountability, because they aren't (or at least, shouldn't be), but that you should volunteer to help in any capacity that you can if you truly believe there is a problem that you know how to solve, rather than allocating the responsibility and ergo, the control of information, over to the organizers. If the organizers say "We can't use you, sorry." then that's their problem.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 19:40 GMT
#43
Maybe, if you can't find anyone to cover this in advance -or if that doesn't work out- you could try asking for help in the tournament OP and/or wherever the results should be accessible.
En Taro Violet
Jaevlaterran
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden578 Posts
September 06 2012 21:01 GMT
#44
it's interesting, the talk about another portal for BW. I'm not convinced that TL is the ultimate solution to BW's problems. I don't see that we are the prioritized clientele here every day if you know my feeling.
Need a light?
hewley
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1063 Posts
September 06 2012 21:14 GMT
#45
On September 07 2012 01:23 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 00:51 Sayle wrote:
On September 07 2012 00:25 Stratos wrote:
The issue is promotion of the game. The way TL has been dealing with the changes sends a clear message: We will provide what the majority demands (Dota2) and cut on what was once our only lover (BW). ESPORTS/money won in this regard so far, I'd love to see this going in the opposite direction. What's stopping TL from promoting BW? Nothing but the opportunity to gain more by promoting different games. But that's not the TL we used to know. It's not like we can demand anything, it's up those with power. I've gradually lost almost all faith in "TL" though.


What BW is there left for TL to promote? The last OSL got plenty of front page coverage, taking up just as much space as any of the SC2 events even though the majority of users had no interest in it. Now that it's over, what exactly do you expect TL to promote? Ribbon's $100 no spire ZvZ tournament? You think that deserves a front page spot next to something like MLG? The requirements for getting BW events featured on the TL calendar is already way lower than getting an SC2 event featured. Similarly the requirements for getting a featured stream doing BW are lower as well (although less clearly defined). I don't really see what else you could expect from TL when there's basically no professional BW left to promote.

Easy. The best BW there is. Like the Korean amateur tournaments featuring players like Hiya that we're only now beginning to hear about. Or ISL and GC for the foreign scene. If TL wants to promote BW, they can promote the best BW there is. If they only want to promote what the mass will accept, then yeah there are countless other events that "deserve" coverage instead because a lot more people wants it in the first place and more money is involved.
I think it would be supercool to come here in 2 years time and see frequent BW news on the frontpage. Even if just a few of the users click them out of curiousity. Just to show to the world the legacy and that TL is proud of it and supports it no matter what. That TL is different. Instead of simply following the money.

But what can TL promote after OSL? That was the last well organized BW tourney, foreign or Korean doesn't matter. When I have to spend more time to find information about a tournament (actual, past results, schedule,...), you can't expect TL to do this for you, if the organization itself is a mess most of the time.
Esports bubble pop, bubble pop
sundersoft
Profile Joined November 2011
91 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 21:37:15
September 06 2012 21:34 GMT
#46
IMO the Torenhire Starleague is worthy of a front page article since most of the players and casters are well known in the community, so people with little interest in Brood War may still watch it just because e.g. Sayle is casting or Rekrul is playing. The organization and casting of the league is also good so that should keep people new to BW interested.

If this thread is for any general requests to tournament organizers, I haven't really seen any foreign tournaments with polls in the live report thread. If you start the poll during the live cast and, after the game, tell your viewers to go to the live report thread and vote, that should be enough to have about 10 votes per game at least. There are a lot of games played so it's difficult for causal viewers (who might want to only watch e.g. 1-2 hours of games per week) to find the best games to watch. This would also help with the Brood War Coverage threads which have vods of the most notable games.

Edit: Also, there could be a "help wanted" thread if tournament organizers want someone to e.g. cast or update liquipedia.
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9517 Posts
September 06 2012 21:46 GMT
#47
With the risk of going little off-topic, lets rehash all the criticism in this thread towards TL:

- The BW events are not on calendar - ok, this wasn't actually aimed at TL, but organizers of the tournament. And it's completely warranted. If you organize a tournament / league, it's expected of you to make your tournament available to as many people as possible. So please, if you organize a tournament, submit it to calendar, update your thread / liquipedia page with results + vods, make a thread on reddit if necessary to get more viewers... you know, do the stuff that organizers do.

- The BW events are mislabeled as SC2/Other on calendar - this is actually a legitimate issue. I don't have access to calendar stuff on TL, but I heard from others that this is a nuance (a bug?) when you're submitting your event that it will mislabel it. I'm not sure if it's a problem with a submission form or it's due to a human error, but it's definitely a problem worth fixing.

- Why doesn't TL make a BW portal - As a BW fan, I actually think that this would be a great idea too. But now we get to the problem, what do we put in a BW portal? Link to BW forums? BW streams? BW news? A page where you can only see stuff BW related? I agree, but then we get an overlap of information with default TL page which you can greatly customize yourself already. I'm actually curious how do you envision a TL:BW portal to look, so please write some constructive feedback if you have some good ideas.

- BW forum is below Dota 2 and SC2 forums - http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/leftsidebar.php - Customize it to your liking. Really, this is a pointless criticism and one that gets repeated way too often...

- TL doesn't post BW news - just because TL has covered professional Korean BW scene, shouldn't lead to expecting that they will also cover the amateur BW when professional scene doesn't exist anymore. You can't really expect that TL puts a Gambit Cup preview on its front page when you can't even find VODs of the tournament...



Ok, that's pretty much all I gathered. I think that BW community needs a certain level of professionalism if it means to survive in any form. Too much pointless drama, organizers not caring enough about their own tournaments, shady tournaments with huge prize money, blaming everyone and everything for BW's demise... are the things we should fix first before asking TL to do something. TL is not some entity that is disconnected from the community. Pretty much whole TL staff became staff by contributing in one way or another. So before you ask TL to do something, try to contribute something yourself first. The amount of PMs I got to help me on Amateur Brood War Coverage is disappointing to say the least and I assume that is something you expect of "TL" to do?

With all being said an done, I can guarantee you that a lot of people on TL's staff are still passionate about BW and we're actively seeking ways to make it more apparent. So please post some constructive criticism and try to be as specific as possible in identifying the problem and providing ideas on its solution.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 22:58 GMT
#48
Here's my idea of how a BW portal could work.
[image loading]
En Taro Violet
Kau *
Profile Joined March 2007
Canada3500 Posts
September 06 2012 23:10 GMT
#49
On September 05 2012 18:30 GeLaar wrote:
Add to that the fact that some of us (for example me) need to do timezone conversions every time.


I wish everyone knew that they could use
[time]22:00 CET[/time]
.
You'll see that it will convert to whatever timezone you set in your profile: 21:00 GMT (+00:00).
Moderator
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
September 07 2012 00:00 GMT
#50
On September 07 2012 08:10 Kau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2012 18:30 GeLaar wrote:
Add to that the fact that some of us (for example me) need to do timezone conversions every time.


I wish everyone knew that they could use
[time]22:00 CET[/time]
.
You'll see that it will convert to whatever timezone you set in your profile: 21:00 GMT (+00:00).


You can use [date][/date] too.

And you can customize the ordering of the sections of the page (and remove them), as people said.

Yeah, events need to be planned a long time in advance, on every point: Info thread, LP, Calendar, Streams/Casts, Schedule, Refs and keeping everything updated... only then everything will be acceptable and a lot more appealing to people, so more will come.

For this we need more people that want to get involved and I've seen more and more people doing so - I think we're going in a good direction right now, we just have to stay on the ball for a while and then score some points.
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
Pucca
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Taiwan1280 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 00:35:29
September 07 2012 00:35 GMT
#51
This thread has been talking about "Why TL does not cover BW events." People have stated due to the lack of consistency, the difficulty of finding VODs and or streams and lack of a pro-scene. I'd also like to mention that I think the overall productions of our streams and VODs are subpar that of which of SC2. The NASL and GSL are one of the two biggest tournaments year round for SC2. Their production quality is through the roof. The GSL you have the best casting duo in history Taseosis, they are funny, entertaining and most important know the game inside out. They have sick intro's nice overlays and graphics and their studio for sake is fantastic. You also have the ability to seemingly have the English or Korean VOD to your liking. The casters are always nicely dress giving a polished and professional look and feel to GOMTV's stream and VODs. The NASL the casters are two high level players (I believe Masters) they are entertaining, you know what to expect from them, they are dressed up their studio looks amazing. They have a production crew making overlay changes and such that it never interferes with viewers experience.

Now if we look are brood war in my eyes. We have disorganized VODs and streams. Now I'd argue its alright for different leagues to have different organization BUT they actually need to link the VODs in a pleasant and easy manner for people to access. That being said we have people who have bland overlays, cheap microphones, in and out streams constantly to the point it becomes unwatchable. This is a turn off for viewers. And this is only the tip of the iceburg in terms of getting a fancy looking stream when you compare ourselfs to the actual events that get covered by TeamLiquid. Lets even go further the scheduling of events. The GSL has given its viewers a 3 week calender of when games going to be casted and played. It is all these small things that would contribute to more awareness to our scene, and the longevity of brood if you wanted to say that. Me personally however I think we are doing fine.

While we might be the "Poor man's eSport" there are other things that could contribute to a better basis for our community and experience for viewers. One that everyone worked together, event organizers, casters and players. Meaning that don't X event organizer decides to ban a couple people from his or her events. At this point I think I'd heavily encourage anyone who is making suggestions if how to increase the awareness of Brood War to take it upon yourself very much what Hacklebeast wrote above and help contribute. I'd say go offer to update Liquidpedia. Offer to help to admin and organize times for players to match up and play each other. Become mediators between two members of the community so we stop this nonsensical banning and hating of each other or referred as "drama".

With all this being said, I think we can definitely improve our VODs to a degree and the organization for sure. I don't want to sound smarter then anyone here and anyone can feel free to disagree with me. I've been on and off YouTube productions for 5 years or so now. I've done a ton of trial of error and I've become somewhat adept at the technical side of videos. I definitely say first impressions on a video is the most important factor that organizers and casters give off to viewers to sustain those viewers. This normally done with a high defination Camera, graphics and narration and or content. Now because content and a HD camera are not really related to BW lets move away from those. Narration is very important. If you know brood war inside out and know builds and timings and know how they effect the game scenario then I'd say you'd make a great casters. Now there are some of us that just like to cast for the fun of it or just started getting into casting and you might not exactly know everything in the game. This is where you can be very entertaining and have the time pass for your viewers so you can learn as they learn and over time you can improve your own casting. At least that what I did, cast a ton be as entertaining as possible without being too distracting like getting really into the game. That is something that makes a quality video. Our casters voices are also important and if they have a dirt cheap microphone that echo's or has so much gain on it that half of the sound of the video is white noise is a immediate turn off for me. That being said I don't think you need to buy a 600$ setup for a microphone like I did but I honestly think if you got a dedicated microphone if your serious for the brood war scene I don't think it crazy for you to go and do some research and get 40$ decent microphone or a 100$ blue yeti. With narration tackled to the ground we need a way to spice up our VODs. Now obviously we are not Starcraft 2, we don't have 1920 x 1080 pixels to work with. But we have spice up our videos with a nice graphical overlay that displays the players information. Now this can be in several different ways I've seen for Brood War VODs. The ISL3 on the left side of the screen their was a rotating panel that displayed players stats another great addition to foreign brood war tournaments. I've seen the normal replay progress overlay that incorporates a nice picture to cover it up. While the player names are taking part of the screen in the top left of the screen, nothing flashy but it gets the job done. NOT taking a icon of a map and dragging it to the corner of the screen to cover the replay progress bar.It gives the impression that we are cheap, we don't want that. Or my own personal overlay where we take advantage of the 16 standard resolution of YouTube and Twitch.TV and use it to our advantage. Instead of wasting the left hand corner to display the tournament name and players name one we can just cover over the unless panels in the bottom right hand portion of the screen to display players names, current wins and losses of a series the map name and the actual tournament itself. I am bias towards my own overlay so of course I understand there are those people who do not like it.

If the three pages of discussion is a indication that people are serious of revamping the foreign brood war scene I'd say I'm ready to see it happen. I've already tried getting all my casts on the calender, make dedicated VOD pages, update LP of my tournament, constantly update tournament, incorporated VODs and stream, a fluid consistent stream and Perfect Audio and even got a little creative with my own personal intro music to all my VODs.

I will say for an organizer / caster it is time consuming to organize 20 something people and in some other peoples cases 32 or greater and to cast it all, update LP and do all the technical aspects is a lot to ask for. I'd reach out to others to see if you can help out by providing the results of tournaments into LP if your able. Help out with conflictions instead of feeding into the arugement. And lastly enjoy the scene thats the whole reason why we are here.

Thats my opinion if people agree with it I hope we might be able to change things of people are willing to help out. To respond that event organizers should make calenders events in advance. I think it is difficult but when I think it about there really is not a excuse for us not to place calender events.
Master Chief
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 07 2012 02:33 GMT
#52
I'd gladly switch back to BW from SC2/LoL/Dota2 if people still played. It's hard to find games.
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
HawaiianPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada5155 Posts
September 07 2012 03:18 GMT
#53
On September 07 2012 07:58 Stratos wrote:
Here's my idea of how a BW portal could work.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The majority of the sidebar requests you are making are already customizeable...

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/leftsidebar.php

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/sidebars.php

As for the idea that TL has abandoned BW... That's unfair. There is no more professional BW to cover. This is no fault of TL.

There is a handful of staff working on ways to competently cover amateur Brood War. The problem is, the scene isn't exactly as well organized as it needs to be for coherent coverage. We're working on it. Nonetheless, please continue to post suggestions. We're watching.
AdministratorNot actually Hawaiian.
HawaiianPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada5155 Posts
September 07 2012 03:23 GMT
#54
On September 07 2012 09:35 Pucca wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
This thread has been talking about "Why TL does not cover BW events." People have stated due to the lack of consistency, the difficulty of finding VODs and or streams and lack of a pro-scene. I'd also like to mention that I think the overall productions of our streams and VODs are subpar that of which of SC2. The NASL and GSL are one of the two biggest tournaments year round for SC2. Their production quality is through the roof. The GSL you have the best casting duo in history Taseosis, they are funny, entertaining and most important know the game inside out. They have sick intro's nice overlays and graphics and their studio for sake is fantastic. You also have the ability to seemingly have the English or Korean VOD to your liking. The casters are always nicely dress giving a polished and professional look and feel to GOMTV's stream and VODs. The NASL the casters are two high level players (I believe Masters) they are entertaining, you know what to expect from them, they are dressed up their studio looks amazing. They have a production crew making overlay changes and such that it never interferes with viewers experience.

Now if we look are brood war in my eyes. We have disorganized VODs and streams. Now I'd argue its alright for different leagues to have different organization BUT they actually need to link the VODs in a pleasant and easy manner for people to access. That being said we have people who have bland overlays, cheap microphones, in and out streams constantly to the point it becomes unwatchable. This is a turn off for viewers. And this is only the tip of the iceburg in terms of getting a fancy looking stream when you compare ourselfs to the actual events that get covered by TeamLiquid. Lets even go further the scheduling of events. The GSL has given its viewers a 3 week calender of when games going to be casted and played. It is all these small things that would contribute to more awareness to our scene, and the longevity of brood if you wanted to say that. Me personally however I think we are doing fine.

While we might be the "Poor man's eSport" there are other things that could contribute to a better basis for our community and experience for viewers. One that everyone worked together, event organizers, casters and players. Meaning that don't X event organizer decides to ban a couple people from his or her events. At this point I think I'd heavily encourage anyone who is making suggestions if how to increase the awareness of Brood War to take it upon yourself very much what Hacklebeast wrote above and help contribute. I'd say go offer to update Liquidpedia. Offer to help to admin and organize times for players to match up and play each other. Become mediators between two members of the community so we stop this nonsensical banning and hating of each other or referred as "drama".

With all this being said, I think we can definitely improve our VODs to a degree and the organization for sure. I don't want to sound smarter then anyone here and anyone can feel free to disagree with me. I've been on and off YouTube productions for 5 years or so now. I've done a ton of trial of error and I've become somewhat adept at the technical side of videos. I definitely say first impressions on a video is the most important factor that organizers and casters give off to viewers to sustain those viewers. This normally done with a high defination Camera, graphics and narration and or content. Now because content and a HD camera are not really related to BW lets move away from those. Narration is very important. If you know brood war inside out and know builds and timings and know how they effect the game scenario then I'd say you'd make a great casters. Now there are some of us that just like to cast for the fun of it or just started getting into casting and you might not exactly know everything in the game. This is where you can be very entertaining and have the time pass for your viewers so you can learn as they learn and over time you can improve your own casting. At least that what I did, cast a ton be as entertaining as possible without being too distracting like getting really into the game. That is something that makes a quality video. Our casters voices are also important and if they have a dirt cheap microphone that echo's or has so much gain on it that half of the sound of the video is white noise is a immediate turn off for me. That being said I don't think you need to buy a 600$ setup for a microphone like I did but I honestly think if you got a dedicated microphone if your serious for the brood war scene I don't think it crazy for you to go and do some research and get 40$ decent microphone or a 100$ blue yeti. With narration tackled to the ground we need a way to spice up our VODs. Now obviously we are not Starcraft 2, we don't have 1920 x 1080 pixels to work with. But we have spice up our videos with a nice graphical overlay that displays the players information. Now this can be in several different ways I've seen for Brood War VODs. The ISL3 on the left side of the screen their was a rotating panel that displayed players stats another great addition to foreign brood war tournaments. I've seen the normal replay progress overlay that incorporates a nice picture to cover it up. While the player names are taking part of the screen in the top left of the screen, nothing flashy but it gets the job done. NOT taking a icon of a map and dragging it to the corner of the screen to cover the replay progress bar.It gives the impression that we are cheap, we don't want that. Or my own personal overlay where we take advantage of the 16 standard resolution of YouTube and Twitch.TV and use it to our advantage. Instead of wasting the left hand corner to display the tournament name and players name one we can just cover over the unless panels in the bottom right hand portion of the screen to display players names, current wins and losses of a series the map name and the actual tournament itself. I am bias towards my own overlay so of course I understand there are those people who do not like it.

If the three pages of discussion is a indication that people are serious of revamping the foreign brood war scene I'd say I'm ready to see it happen. I've already tried getting all my casts on the calender, make dedicated VOD pages, update LP of my tournament, constantly update tournament, incorporated VODs and stream, a fluid consistent stream and Perfect Audio and even got a little creative with my own personal intro music to all my VODs.

I will say for an organizer / caster it is time consuming to organize 20 something people and in some other peoples cases 32 or greater and to cast it all, update LP and do all the technical aspects is a lot to ask for. I'd reach out to others to see if you can help out by providing the results of tournaments into LP if your able. Help out with conflictions instead of feeding into the arugement. And lastly enjoy the scene thats the whole reason why we are here.

Thats my opinion if people agree with it I hope we might be able to change things of people are willing to help out. To respond that event organizers should make calenders events in advance. I think it is difficult but when I think it about there really is not a excuse for us not to place calender events.


Totally agree with this. You'll notice the Torenhire Starleague (mostly run by TL staff and veterans) tries its best to have a consistent visual style.
AdministratorNot actually Hawaiian.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 05:49:54
September 07 2012 05:33 GMT
#55
On September 07 2012 12:18 HawaiianPig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 07:58 Stratos wrote:
Here's my idea of how a BW portal could work.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The majority of the sidebar requests you are making are already customizeable...

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/leftsidebar.php

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/sidebars.php

As for the idea that TL has abandoned BW... That's unfair. There is no more professional BW to cover. This is no fault of TL.

There is a handful of staff working on ways to competently cover amateur Brood War. The problem is, the scene isn't exactly as well organized as it needs to be for coherent coverage. We're working on it. Nonetheless, please continue to post suggestions. We're watching.

The idea was that when the player clicks on the BW portal the layout of the page would adjust to work best for BW. Hence moving BW up etc. but yeah it's unnecessary and would probably make the site a mess.

Any word on: private BW events?
Always show streams?
The rest of the suggestions that actually make the core of the portal - BW spotlight, BW news, BW results? Note that these would all link to threads/blogs/posts or a liquipedia page, it's just highlighting them in an organized fashion.
En Taro Violet
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
September 07 2012 07:03 GMT
#56
On September 07 2012 14:33 Stratos wrote:
Any word on: private BW events?
Always show streams?
The rest of the suggestions that actually make the core of the portal - BW spotlight, BW news, BW results? Note that these would all link to threads/blogs/posts or a liquipedia page, it's just highlighting them in an organized fashion.


From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements. What other 'private BW events' are there to feature?

"Always show streams" is a pretty trivial complaint. Admittedly, it's probably also a fairly trivial change to add that feature to the customization options, but this just seems like nitpicking.

For your "BW spotlight, BW news, BW results" sections, what actually goes there? There are at best 2-3 good new threads per week in all the BW forums combined, and that's probably going to drop off now that OSL/SPL threads are going away. The only two high level amateur events that we have any coverage of are Gambit's Cup and the Chinese OSL and the coverage of those is shoddy. As people have said, it's almost impossible to follow GC even if you try. I always look for the latest results for that since I can't watch the streams, but I can never find them until draW randomly makes a blog post weeks later. On the other hand, people keep talking up the C-OSL and how the Chinese scene is going to save BW and yet the Ro8 thread, Ro4 thread and finals thread got less than four pages of comments combined. As far as I know, live streaming of the event was also inconsistent (actually this goes for GC too), and the VODs as you can see in those threads are super low quality.

People are also talking about covering the amateur Korean scene that has notable players like Hiya, Pusan and Anytime, but who is going to do that? A few threads popped up a while ago for the hOdduk Starleague and the team league that FAT (foreigner allstar team) participated in also got some coverage, but I haven't really heard anything from that scene since then. The only glimpse I'm getting from them recently is random Afreeca restreams on kjwcj's stream.

This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 07 2012 07:08 GMT
#57
On September 07 2012 06:46 2Pacalypse- wrote:
With the risk of going little off-topic, lets rehash all the criticism in this thread towards TL:

[...]


- The BW events are mislabeled as SC2/Other on calendar - this is actually a legitimate issue. I don't have access to calendar stuff on TL, but I heard from others that this is a nuance (a bug?) when you're submitting your event that it will mislabel it. I'm not sure if it's a problem with a submission form or it's due to a human error, but it's definitely a problem worth fixing.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343148
0 Responses



- Why doesn't TL make a BW portal - As a BW fan, I actually think that this would be a great idea too. But now we get to the problem, what do we put in a BW portal? Link to BW forums? BW streams? BW news? A page where you can only see stuff BW related? I agree, but then we get an overlap of information with default TL page which you can greatly customize yourself already. I'm actually curious how do you envision a TL:BW portal to look, so please write some constructive feedback if you have some good ideas.


I already kind of asked Pholon to install some sort of option to remote control streams for some users. This way we might get more streams we can only find on defiler. I'm not asking to allow Scan back, but the option to turn on/off a stream for players like Pado/IloveJesus and other non-English speaking streamers could be quite cool.


[...]

- TL doesn't post BW news - just because TL has covered professional Korean BW scene, shouldn't lead to expecting that they will also cover the amateur BW when professional scene doesn't exist anymore. You can't really expect that TL puts a Gambit Cup preview on its front page when you can't even find VODs of the tournament...



Ok, that's pretty much all I gathered. I think that BW community needs a certain level of professionalism if it means to survive in any form. Too much pointless drama, organizers not caring enough about their own tournaments, shady tournaments with huge prize money, blaming everyone and everything for BW's demise... are the things we should fix first before asking TL to do something. TL is not some entity that is disconnected from the community. Pretty much whole TL staff became staff by contributing in one way or another. So before you ask TL to do something, try to contribute something yourself first. The amount of PMs I got to help me on Amateur Brood War Coverage is disappointing to say the least and I assume that is something you expect of "TL" to do?

With all being said an done, I can guarantee you that a lot of people on TL's staff are still passionate about BW and we're actively seeking ways to make it more apparent. So please post some constructive criticism and try to be as specific as possible in identifying the problem and providing ideas on its solution.


Well, I agree that TL policy is quite in favour of the BW organizers, anything gets on calendar. Then again, why? Don't complain about shady threads, bad organization, etc. Just don't support it and close it. Educate the organizers: they do a bad job and you don't give them a platform. If an event has too much drama, don't add it to the calendar. If an OP lacks info (but still has 1500++ words) close the OP and have it re-written.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 07:54:37
September 07 2012 07:48 GMT
#58
On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 14:33 Stratos wrote:
Any word on: private BW events?
Always show streams?
The rest of the suggestions that actually make the core of the portal - BW spotlight, BW news, BW results? Note that these would all link to threads/blogs/posts or a liquipedia page, it's just highlighting them in an organized fashion.


From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements. What other 'private BW events' are there to feature?

Stuff like the iFU showmatch series without a prizepool.


"Always show streams" is a pretty trivial complaint. Admittedly, it's probably also a fairly trivial change to add that feature to the customization options, but this just seems like nitpicking.

If you had the site/streams on BW only for a longer time and each time you clicked anything on the site, you had to click "show 2-non featured" to make sure it's not someone new that you'd like to check out, it would maybe seem less trivial. It is nitpicking, but nitpicking is how any site gets better and more comfortable for the user.


For your "BW spotlight, BW news, BW results" sections, what actually goes there? There are at best 2-3 good new threads per week in all the BW forums combined, and that's probably going to drop off now that OSL/SPL threads are going away. The only two high level amateur events that we have any coverage of are Gambit's Cup and the Chinese OSL and the coverage of those is shoddy. As people have said, it's almost impossible to follow GC even if you try. I always look for the latest results for that since I can't watch the streams, but I can never find them until draW randomly makes a blog post weeks later. On the other hand, people keep talking up the C-OSL and how the Chinese scene is going to save BW and yet the Ro8 thread, Ro4 thread and finals thread got less than four pages of comments combined. As far as I know, live streaming of the event was also inconsistent (actually this goes for GC too), and the VODs as you can see in those threads are super low quality.

So what? There's not an influx of important BW news but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be highlighted in an organized fashion. As it stands, all that BW has is the forums. And the way these forums are organized - "Hot" + "Everything else" is not friendly to anyone who's not logging in on a daily basis. Why not highlight the most important things on the frontpage of a BW portal so that casual visitors easily get what they might have missed?
The lack of interest in the C-OSL threads is nothing but another reason to do it. I don't know what low VOD quality has to do with anything.


People are also talking about covering the amateur Korean scene that has notable players like Hiya, Pusan and Anytime, but who is going to do that? A few threads popped up a while ago for the hOdduk Starleague and the team league that FAT (foreigner allstar team) participated in also got some coverage, but I haven't really heard anything from that scene since then. The only glimpse I'm getting from them recently is random Afreeca restreams on kjwcj's stream.

Spotlight the stream, hopefully someone will report more about the scene (it has been promised by ArvickHero I believe). Why is that I got to learn about this in some random thread? Things like this should be easily accessible, if possible. All I'm trying to say is that there might be an easy way to do it - the BW portal. Draw attention to interesting new facts and someone will take the initiative. As there are SC2 and Dota2 portals already working, I can imagine it wouldn't be that hard to get a BW one going. Will there be less content? Sure. Is it a good reason to not make it happen? Imo not. If someone wants good BW coverage, he should get it on TL. We should not make excuses and do our best. Is there enough will and manpower? Not sure. But let's be positive and think of new ways instead of saying "oh well amateurs are amateurs nobody cares".


This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.

Fair enough. I never said TL hates BW but that there is content that could be featured (like the ABC coverage). And there's no real time investment in featuring news like this on the frontpage. The only reason to not do it is because there's something "better" to show. And personally I find it sad that the best BW coverage there is at the moment isn't important anymore on TL. (Btw. Idk it might've actually been spotlighted, I don't follow this since I visit the forums too often to miss something like this)

Overall what I'm reading is: If something is not good enough to get hundreds of pages of comments, we shouldn't concern ourselves with it. But that's bullshit imo. There is a good enough amateur BW scene that can always improve but I think it's far from "not being able to take care of itself". I think that's actually some nitpicking on your part. The issues with the calendar have only been temporary and as far as not updating the threads or liquipedia immediately, it seems the organizers will focus on this more from now on. And even if not, it's still no reason to not introduce any of the features I proposed. If there's not enough manpower and/or will to make it possible, say it like this instead of listing all the reasons why we shouldn't do it.
En Taro Violet
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 07 2012 10:09 GMT
#59
Well now, there are currently four events on my Calendar, and I'm a happy person. Thanks to everyone who added the events (whether or not it had anything to do with my original request).

Also, people are seriously discussing how to improve the community, so this thread is a massive success as far as I'm concerned.
Brood War is alive and well.
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 07 2012 10:37 GMT
#60
On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements.


The way you say it, it sounds as it is a favor done to us that these streams are even allowed on the Calendar.

On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.


I'm past being bitter about this, but it is a matter of TL abandoning us. This has gone on since well before professional BW was nearing its end (since before even the last MSL finals, in fact), and has nothing to do with the shakiness of the amateur scene. And the condescending and sometimes downright rude attitude some of the staff members have had towards BW fans who complained, has done a lot to erode the good feelings I had about this site.
Brood War is alive and well.
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