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A request for Brood War event managers

Forum Index > BW General
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GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 05 2012 09:30 GMT
#1
Since the Korean Brood War individual leagues are over, and with Proleague a mere shadow of its former self, the loyal BW fans are left with only non-Korean events to look forward to. Personally, I'm fine with that, as I enjoy all of the "foreign" events. But whenever I log in, the calendar is completely empty, and the only way to find out when there will be a broadcast is to go through the thread of each league or event that might be active at the time, and hunt for the broadcast information. In some cases (such as the Gambit Cup), information about the broadcast dates has been extremely hard to find. Add to that the fact that some of us (for example me) need to do timezone conversions every time.

The Calendar can solve every single one of these problems. In fact, it's why it's there.

It might seem a bit selfish and lazy of to ask for this, but I think the people organizing these events will also find that they will have a lot more viewers if people actually know the broadcast times beforehand.

In short, I think the BW community here would greatly appreciate it if the event managers would update the Calendar as far in advance as possible.

Thank you.
Brood War is alive and well.
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9517 Posts
September 05 2012 09:45 GMT
#2
I'd like to extend this request, and ask the tournament organizers to PLEASE update their threads. Finding out at which stage the tournament is currently in and links to the VODs is unnecessarily hard in some of the biggest tournaments in our scene...
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
RedW4rr10r
Profile Joined January 2010
Switzerland746 Posts
September 05 2012 09:52 GMT
#3
I have to agree. For me it's either luck that I see an event being broadcasted (due to the streamer list), or it is a weekly event like GC that I have to remember myself at the broadcast time. Or, if something other events going to be broadcasted, I just leave a note in my real calender (yes, these kind of things still exist).

So acutally using the TL calender would be very appreciated and helpful for a lot of people, I guess.
Rip & Tear until it is done!
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 05 2012 10:17 GMT
#4
I have a good idea. Having a 'centralised' place for BW will help to see exactly what tournaments are running, when, who's playing etc. In the top bar of teamliquid.net, where it says, Home, Starcraft 2 and Dota 2, why not have a BW portal?

I don't know, I've always thought the idea of a more bw focused portal would help it grow. I'd love to see a C-OSL section, a gambits cup section, a YSL section, a TSL section and so on. There is lots of bw being played, but finding streams/vods/replays can be hard.

Seeing as tl.net is growing phenomenally and is catering to a wider audience, why not keep each section more seperate. We already have:
http://www.teamliquid.net/sc2/
http://www.teamliquid.net/dota2/

why not have a bw one too?
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 05 2012 11:12 GMT
#5
Events in calendar are a must but then again the casters are busy people and maybe can't always schedule a cast days ahead. Also there's the persisting issue with BW events often mislisted as sc2/other (I think this was the case for some of the GC casts btw).

A BW portal that would provide an overview for all the leagues/upcoming casts/replays etc. would be great. The question is if there's will from the TL team to make it possible and enough manpower from our side to make it happen.
En Taro Violet
brolaf
Profile Joined May 2012
291 Posts
September 05 2012 12:48 GMT
#6
Yeah as a spectator that would be great, to have an overview of when stuff is happening so I can catch them
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6760 Posts
September 05 2012 12:54 GMT
#7
i think the scene need more organizers ;; im sure people will enjoy more the events with alot of hype and publicity. not something like ok we have 15 players . the tour start 17 cet friday T_T.
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 05 2012 12:58 GMT
#8
On September 05 2012 19:17 BookTwo wrote:
I have a good idea. Having a 'centralised' place for BW will help to see exactly what tournaments are running, when, who's playing etc. In the top bar of teamliquid.net, where it says, Home, Starcraft 2 and Dota 2, why not have a BW portal?

I don't know, I've always thought the idea of a more bw focused portal would help it grow. I'd love to see a C-OSL section, a gambits cup section, a YSL section, a TSL section and so on. There is lots of bw being played, but finding streams/vods/replays can be hard.

Seeing as tl.net is growing phenomenally and is catering to a wider audience, why not keep each section more seperate. We already have:
http://www.teamliquid.net/sc2/
http://www.teamliquid.net/dota2/

why not have a bw one too?


I think that considering our current standing here, a BW portal would be way too much to hope for. We've been second class citizens here for quite a while now. The fact is that BW is not where the money is, so any resource TL.net spents on our community would be wasted in their eyes. (Note that the BW section was recently demoted to a position below Dota 2 in the default left sidebar.)

That's why I just made a modest request that at least the resources that we do have at our disposal should be put to good use.
Brood War is alive and well.
Pucca
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Taiwan1280 Posts
September 05 2012 13:01 GMT
#9
Making calender events for times for a cast normally can be foreseen in about 24 hours of cast I'd say. It is difficult to always get a cast time and date multiple days ahead due time conflicts with co-casters in such. But everything said above I agree with.
Master Chief
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
September 05 2012 13:07 GMT
#10
What's stopping you from putting them on the calendar yourself? There's no rule that the tournament organizer must be the one to submit a calendar request. If you don't see an event on the calendar, put it there yourself.
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 05 2012 13:29 GMT
#11
On September 05 2012 22:07 Sayle wrote:
What's stopping you from putting them on the calendar yourself? There's no rule that the tournament organizer must be the one to submit a calendar request. If you don't see an event on the calendar, put it there yourself.


I'm well aware that anyone can submit entries to the Calendar. What's stopping me from doing it myself are the reasons I mentioned in my original post: There are a lot of events, and I would have to go hunting for broadcast information for each of them through different threads, and I would have to do so on a regular basis.

What I was suggesting was that someone involved in the organization of the events would do the updating - that way any one person will only have to take care of their own event, and they will have easier access to the information than us mere mortals. Plus, the organizers know about the schedule far earlier than we do, and if they update the Calendar as soon as they make the threads, the event will get far more exposure than if we wait for some good samaritan to come along and do it.

All in all, "why don't you do it yourself" is basically what we've has been doing so far, and it's not working very well. And I really do think that it's in the interest of the organizers to make sure the events get posted as quickly as possible, so is this really asking too much?
Brood War is alive and well.
Jaevlaterran
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden578 Posts
September 05 2012 13:31 GMT
#12
On September 05 2012 22:07 Sayle wrote:
What's stopping you from putting them on the calendar yourself? There's no rule that the tournament organizer must be the one to submit a calendar request. If you don't see an event on the calendar, put it there yourself.


This is true, but it feels like the tournament organizers should do this more than they seem to do.
Need a light?
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
September 05 2012 13:47 GMT
#13
On September 05 2012 21:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
i think the scene need more organizers ;; im sure people will enjoy more the events with alot of hype and publicity. not something like ok we have 15 players . the tour start 17 cet friday T_T.


http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=365192
I started doing this. I know they have a wiki for it but nobody comments in the wiki. I was thinking about doing team interviews as well as some player interviews but I haven't got confirmation yet.
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
LML
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Germany1772 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-05 14:47:08
September 05 2012 14:46 GMT
#14
The problem is also that the events are usually not added as BW in the first place. I even put BW tags and stuff and then had to keep pm'ing admins to change it from SC2 to BW. That was almost a year ago and I was told they will add a function to pick which game it is for, still waiting for that though;/
LML
Sinedd
Profile Joined July 2008
Poland7052 Posts
September 05 2012 14:54 GMT
#15
we need more coverage and info about the korean semipro tournaments on afreeca too !

they are really strong and super fun to spectate
T H C makes ppl happy
TaShadan
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany1978 Posts
September 05 2012 15:16 GMT
#16
yes please update the tournament stuff more frequently
Total Annihilation Zero
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 06 2012 03:41 GMT
#17
I know this might sound like mutiny, but why doesn't someone create a BW portal... seperate from teamliquid?

If it wasn't for teamliquid, foreign brood war would be only a shadow of what it has been and is today. I am not making out that teamliquid is hurting bw is ANY WAY. However I think it's clear that tl.net is focusing on Starcraft 2, Dota 2 and newer games. I think it's a great thing, because the community here is amazing and opening up more doors for users/tournament organisers etc is what teamliquid does so well.

Brood War is different. It is very old compared to these games. It has a loyal, hardcoreish following. It also has many many tournaments still running. Content won't be any issue at all, simply getting people to use a seperate website that is frequently updated with latest results etc.

Thoughts?
Psyonic_Reaver
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4337 Posts
September 06 2012 04:25 GMT
#18
SC2GG REBORN! =p Kidding!

Too bad battlereports.com couldn't make a rebirth. But the website is horribly outdated.
So wait? I'm bad? =(
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 06 2012 04:59 GMT
#19
Would anybody be interested in creating such a website?
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6760 Posts
September 06 2012 12:29 GMT
#20
On September 06 2012 13:59 BookTwo wrote:
Would anybody be interested in creating such a website?

but we dont have people to refresh the forums. how u think we got people to make a new website... I think is more important make a strong community first. and progress progress and see
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9517 Posts
September 06 2012 12:48 GMT
#21
Eonzerg is right. Community is here. Splitting it between multiple websites will only make things worst.

Also, I'd like to ask you all to be little more patient. TL hasn't given up on BW just yet
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 13:29 GMT
#22
On September 06 2012 21:48 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Eonzerg is right. Community is here. Splitting it between multiple websites will only make things worst.

Also, I'd like to ask you all to be little more patient. TL hasn't given up on BW just yet

Who's "TL"? From what I've observed for the past 2 months or so, there are individuals - like you - putting in great effort but no support from the site as such - like highlighting BW news or any BW related content be it here or on the facebook page (literally ZERO [maybe 1] bw news), afaik no financial support, pretty much nothing like that except for rare exceptions that I would again assume to be an action of an individual.

It's more like the opposite actually, as BW events are often being mislabeled as SC2 and the BW section is gradually descending to the bottom of the page (but still high enough for us to see the ads, yay).

Are you saying this might change? I don't see it coming at all, but naturally it would be great. I agree that splitting is not a good idea. All the basic tools that we need are here and a significant number of us follow the other games as well.
En Taro Violet
Gben592
Profile Joined August 2012
United Kingdom281 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 14:19:13
September 06 2012 14:18 GMT
#23
Well, if you separate the websites there aren't going to be sc2'ers like me cruising the BW forums and thinking "hmmm, when I start playing games again (UNI) I should check out BW, cos it appears people still play it (and it sounds like a far superior game) :O :D "

But I might be an anomaly ^^
"The more skilled player is the one who wins, and I don't think there's better balance than what we have now." INnoVation
RedW4rr10r
Profile Joined January 2010
Switzerland746 Posts
September 06 2012 15:16 GMT
#24
On September 06 2012 22:29 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2012 21:48 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Eonzerg is right. Community is here. Splitting it between multiple websites will only make things worst.

Also, I'd like to ask you all to be little more patient. TL hasn't given up on BW just yet

[...]
It's more like the opposite actually, as BW events are often being mislabeled as SC2 and the BW section is gradually descending to the bottom of the page (but still high enough for us to see the ads, yay).[...]

By default, yes. That's what I've noticed, too. But you can customize your left and right sidebar individually ("customize sidebar") so you can put the BW section to top and other sections to the bottom or remove them completly (so I've done with the sc2 and dota2 section).
That might be like a tiny "personal victory" over these other newer games
Rip & Tear until it is done!
RedW4rr10r
Profile Joined January 2010
Switzerland746 Posts
September 06 2012 15:17 GMT
#25
On September 06 2012 23:18 Gben592 wrote:
Well, if you separate the websites there aren't going to be sc2'ers like me cruising the BW forums and thinking "hmmm, when I start playing games again (UNI) I should check out BW, cos it appears people still play it (and it sounds like a far superior game) :O :D "

But I might be an anomaly ^^

BW players are always appreciated to see this kind of sc2 players :D:D
Rip & Tear until it is done!
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 15:25 GMT
#26
On September 07 2012 00:16 RedW4rr10r wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 06 2012 22:29 Stratos wrote:
On September 06 2012 21:48 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Eonzerg is right. Community is here. Splitting it between multiple websites will only make things worst.

Also, I'd like to ask you all to be little more patient. TL hasn't given up on BW just yet

[...]
It's more like the opposite actually, as BW events are often being mislabeled as SC2 and the BW section is gradually descending to the bottom of the page (but still high enough for us to see the ads, yay).[...]

By default, yes. That's what I've noticed, too. But you can customize your left and right sidebar individually ("customize sidebar") so you can put the BW section to top and other sections to the bottom or remove them completly (so I've done with the sc2 and dota2 section).
That might be like a tiny "personal victory" over these other newer games

http://i.imgur.com/id35B.png
this is my "personal victory" TL rid of pretty much anything but BW. maybe when displayed like this, it can strike you just how much space BW gets these days.

The issue is promotion of the game. The way TL has been dealing with the changes sends a clear message: We will provide what the majority demands (Dota2) and cut on what was once our only lover (BW). ESPORTS/money won in this regard so far, I'd love to see this going in the opposite direction. What's stopping TL from promoting BW? Nothing but the opportunity to gain more by promoting different games. But that's not the TL we used to know. It's not like we can demand anything, it's up those with power. I've gradually lost almost all faith in "TL" though.
En Taro Violet
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
September 06 2012 15:37 GMT
#27
I agree with what Stratos is saying. It's blindingly apparent, and has been for a while. I also agree with 2pac's first post. I've spent more time looking for updates via VODs etc for most tournaments than I have watching the tournament/investing time in them. I also think this is because of a severe deficit of Liquipedia contributions, so it's only partially on the organizers to receive blame.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
September 06 2012 15:51 GMT
#28
On September 07 2012 00:25 Stratos wrote:
The issue is promotion of the game. The way TL has been dealing with the changes sends a clear message: We will provide what the majority demands (Dota2) and cut on what was once our only lover (BW). ESPORTS/money won in this regard so far, I'd love to see this going in the opposite direction. What's stopping TL from promoting BW? Nothing but the opportunity to gain more by promoting different games. But that's not the TL we used to know. It's not like we can demand anything, it's up those with power. I've gradually lost almost all faith in "TL" though.


What BW is there left for TL to promote? The last OSL got plenty of front page coverage, taking up just as much space as any of the SC2 events even though the majority of users had no interest in it. Now that it's over, what exactly do you expect TL to promote? Ribbon's $100 no spire ZvZ tournament? You think that deserves a front page spot next to something like MLG? The requirements for getting BW events featured on the TL calendar is already way lower than getting an SC2 event featured. Similarly the requirements for getting a featured stream doing BW are lower as well (although less clearly defined). I don't really see what else you could expect from TL when there's basically no professional BW left to promote.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 16:23 GMT
#29
On September 07 2012 00:51 Sayle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 00:25 Stratos wrote:
The issue is promotion of the game. The way TL has been dealing with the changes sends a clear message: We will provide what the majority demands (Dota2) and cut on what was once our only lover (BW). ESPORTS/money won in this regard so far, I'd love to see this going in the opposite direction. What's stopping TL from promoting BW? Nothing but the opportunity to gain more by promoting different games. But that's not the TL we used to know. It's not like we can demand anything, it's up those with power. I've gradually lost almost all faith in "TL" though.


What BW is there left for TL to promote? The last OSL got plenty of front page coverage, taking up just as much space as any of the SC2 events even though the majority of users had no interest in it. Now that it's over, what exactly do you expect TL to promote? Ribbon's $100 no spire ZvZ tournament? You think that deserves a front page spot next to something like MLG? The requirements for getting BW events featured on the TL calendar is already way lower than getting an SC2 event featured. Similarly the requirements for getting a featured stream doing BW are lower as well (although less clearly defined). I don't really see what else you could expect from TL when there's basically no professional BW left to promote.

Easy. The best BW there is. Like the Korean amateur tournaments featuring players like Hiya that we're only now beginning to hear about. Or ISL and GC for the foreign scene. If TL wants to promote BW, they can promote the best BW there is. If they only want to promote what the mass will accept, then yeah there are countless other events that "deserve" coverage instead because a lot more people wants it in the first place and more money is involved.
I think it would be supercool to come here in 2 years time and see frequent BW news on the frontpage. Even if just a few of the users click them out of curiousity. Just to show to the world the legacy and that TL is proud of it and supports it no matter what. That TL is different. Instead of simply following the money.
En Taro Violet
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 16:49:22
September 06 2012 16:48 GMT
#30
On September 07 2012 01:23 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 00:51 Sayle wrote:
On September 07 2012 00:25 Stratos wrote:
The issue is promotion of the game. The way TL has been dealing with the changes sends a clear message: We will provide what the majority demands (Dota2) and cut on what was once our only lover (BW). ESPORTS/money won in this regard so far, I'd love to see this going in the opposite direction. What's stopping TL from promoting BW? Nothing but the opportunity to gain more by promoting different games. But that's not the TL we used to know. It's not like we can demand anything, it's up those with power. I've gradually lost almost all faith in "TL" though.


What BW is there left for TL to promote? The last OSL got plenty of front page coverage, taking up just as much space as any of the SC2 events even though the majority of users had no interest in it. Now that it's over, what exactly do you expect TL to promote? Ribbon's $100 no spire ZvZ tournament? You think that deserves a front page spot next to something like MLG? The requirements for getting BW events featured on the TL calendar is already way lower than getting an SC2 event featured. Similarly the requirements for getting a featured stream doing BW are lower as well (although less clearly defined). I don't really see what else you could expect from TL when there's basically no professional BW left to promote.

Easy. The best BW there is. Like the Korean amateur tournaments featuring players like Hiya that we're only now beginning to hear about. Or ISL and GC for the foreign scene. If TL wants to promote BW, they can promote the best BW there is. If they only want to promote what the mass will accept, then yeah there are countless other events that "deserve" coverage instead because a lot more people wants it in the first place and more money is involved.
I think it would be supercool to come here in 2 years time and see frequent BW news on the frontpage. Even if just a few of the users click them out of curiousity. Just to show to the world the legacy and that TL is proud of it and supports it no matter what. That TL is different. Instead of simply following the money.


Stratos I know what are you saying buddy, but how much obligation do teamliquid has to deal with bw which is already 14 years old ? . We can push forward that we have the best content in broodwar and yet in the end there is nothing to advertise that will exceed the already popular game that seems to hold the majority of the content publish on this website especially sc2 right now which brings in a lot of viewers to the website . Times changes and the the world within it shape according to it's environment and I am not saying that we should because it's what everyone is doing right now .

I bet they are amateur tournaments in korea we haven't yet get any coverage on and I don't expect teamliquid to do any coverage any more at all on these news . However if there are any individual out there who are capable of bringing to us closer to the korean bw scene out there please do .I am still finding something to replace that dying amber with me and right now I find some solace in programing at least it helps me out with my career if I get really good at what I am doing . Last but not least I am thankful for tl.net for being a place where I can share the same interest with players all around the globe that is having the same passion for broodwar . Also 2pacalypse is still around and I bet he isn't going to give up on bw right now .

The current popular trend will always pull in more crowd take a look at justin beiber and see the sea of fans just screaming over his songs and I dare you to play Neil Sadaka to current crowd and expect them to appreciate good music.
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 17:06 GMT
#31
You're absolutely right and it makes no sense to promote BW from a businessman's point of view. TL was different though, it was a non-profit organization and things were and felt different. At least that's my experience and I haven't even been that long around here.

There's nothing wrong with the path TL has chosen, but as it stands, it's losing what made it special in the first place and it's becoming sk-gaming 2.0. As the BW and QL news disappeared from SK, so will BW disappear from TL until it becomes an isolated island that nobody cares about as long as it's silent.

And it makes perfect sense. All I'm saying is that I personally think it would be supercool from TL if this wouldn't happen. If there would be a smaller TSL.BW accompanying the SC2 tournament. If the best of BW was still being promoted. It would make me feel home here again. :D But naturally nobody gives a shit about how the few of us feel here or if BW dies in a year or in 2 or 10 or never.
En Taro Violet
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
September 06 2012 17:10 GMT
#32
There is some truth to this. When we do "spill over" casts to catch up on stuff that should have been finished the times aren't set in stone. The majority of events are planed about a week in advance. The only thing TL is doing that gets in the way is that they have a policy of not letting us put up events weeks in advance (so eywa can't just add 10 weeks of GC in one shot), but that's resonable for them to request.

I'm not trying to call people out, but there isn't a good reason (as far as I know) why stuff isn't submited to the calender untill the day of.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6760 Posts
September 06 2012 17:22 GMT
#33
there is nothing to promote in the front page. all is bad organize.people dont update the tour forum.and teamliquid is now a professional team of sc2. many things have been changed. there is not more professinal bw. maybe the only that deserve the hype is that eurolan that more time pass more the people think is fake. there is not webpage for this event .there is not info about the place. and a guy from canada gonna organize all the event in czech republic.ISL3 got his mainpage . all was decent organize.maybe for ISL4 we can manage to get frontpage. idk
TheShimmy
Profile Joined January 2011
United States1808 Posts
September 06 2012 17:31 GMT
#34
A new website would only further divide the community.

Please all organizers use the calendar!
Hyvaa #1 Fan. Gogo STX, Dear, Bogus, Classic, and Mini! Always a BW fan!
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 06 2012 17:35 GMT
#35
On September 07 2012 00:37 Game wrote:
I agree with what Stratos is saying. It's blindingly apparent, and has been for a while. I also agree with 2pac's first post. I've spent more time looking for updates via VODs etc for most tournaments than I have watching the tournament/investing time in them. I also think this is because of a severe deficit of Liquipedia contributions, so it's only partially on the organizers to receive blame.


Anybody can edit LP. That is no excuse for laziness.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
September 06 2012 17:39 GMT
#36
On September 07 2012 02:22 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
ISL3 got his mainpage .

Maybe I missed it, could you link me to that?

On September 07 2012 02:35 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 00:37 Game wrote:
I agree with what Stratos is saying. It's blindingly apparent, and has been for a while. I also agree with 2pac's first post. I've spent more time looking for updates via VODs etc for most tournaments than I have watching the tournament/investing time in them. I also think this is because of a severe deficit of Liquipedia contributions, so it's only partially on the organizers to receive blame.


Anybody can edit LP. That is no excuse for laziness.

You just quoted my post and said the same thing in different words. Let me try that. Guise, LP can be edited by any TL user. We should do that.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6760 Posts
September 06 2012 17:44 GMT
#37
On September 07 2012 02:39 Game wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 02:22 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
ISL3 got his mainpage .

Maybe I missed it, could you link me to that?

Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 02:35 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
On September 07 2012 00:37 Game wrote:
I agree with what Stratos is saying. It's blindingly apparent, and has been for a while. I also agree with 2pac's first post. I've spent more time looking for updates via VODs etc for most tournaments than I have watching the tournament/investing time in them. I also think this is because of a severe deficit of Liquipedia contributions, so it's only partially on the organizers to receive blame.


Anybody can edit LP. That is no excuse for laziness.

You just quoted my post and said the same thing in different words. Let me try that. Guise, LP can be edited by any TL user. We should do that.

http://altitudeisl.net/index.php/Main_Page
i think this count for the goodlook of the event ;;
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 06 2012 17:49 GMT
#38
It's way easier to set it up if you have full information and it doesn't take much time for the organizors to add their stuff on their own. Especially your and eywa's events have been hard to add, since you spam a lot of text, but offer only little info.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
September 06 2012 17:54 GMT
#39
On September 07 2012 02:49 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
It's way easier to set it up if you have full information and it doesn't take much time for the organizors to add their stuff on their own. Especially your and eywa's events have been hard to add, since you spam a lot of text, but offer only little info.

I don't write any of my stuff.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
eeniebear
Profile Joined February 2010
United States197 Posts
September 06 2012 18:00 GMT
#40
I really don't blame TL for catering to a larger audience. More ad revenue, etc for them, which is good. People making money is good. They don't have an obligation to promote BW. It's up to the amateur scene to prove its worth through organization and growth. That's how you get more love from TL, not complaining to TL about a lack of coverage when most of the time (at least lately) the amateur tournies aren't even on the calendar. I made a comment on the Skype channel for SGS that I missed amateur BW, and when were more casts going to happen? I was shocked to learn that casts were in fact happening, they just weren't listed. That organizational element needs to change, big time.

I really think another thing that would help a lot would be to get some production values going. I really doubt that it's very difficult to get bumper videos put together, biographical information on RO16 or RO8 competitors, etc, like they did for Razer and Poker Strategy TSLs. Some hype can go a very long way. And if music copyrights are issues, I can even write and record some music for that kind of stuff.
hp.Shell
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2527 Posts
September 06 2012 18:50 GMT
#41
I have found help for time zone conversion! I used to have 3 clocks on my computer (local, KST, and CET) but now I just have http://everytimezone.com/ bookmarked... I hope it can be of some use to you!
Please PM me with any songs you like that you think I haven't heard before!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
September 06 2012 19:27 GMT
#42
You can't just go "Here's what I think you guys should do...", but you have to be part of the process. Nobody is going to take the initiative for you, unless they're extremely motivated. All I see coming out of this is organizers pointing fingers at each other and going "They're not up to snuff, I keep my tours organized better than anyone." Anyone who is able to point out potential problems with the "scene", but isn't proactive in creating solutions to those problems is, unfortunately, not helpful to the community. I'm not saying that organizers aren't above criticism or accountability, because they aren't (or at least, shouldn't be), but that you should volunteer to help in any capacity that you can if you truly believe there is a problem that you know how to solve, rather than allocating the responsibility and ergo, the control of information, over to the organizers. If the organizers say "We can't use you, sorry." then that's their problem.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 19:40 GMT
#43
Maybe, if you can't find anyone to cover this in advance -or if that doesn't work out- you could try asking for help in the tournament OP and/or wherever the results should be accessible.
En Taro Violet
Jaevlaterran
Profile Joined April 2012
Sweden578 Posts
September 06 2012 21:01 GMT
#44
it's interesting, the talk about another portal for BW. I'm not convinced that TL is the ultimate solution to BW's problems. I don't see that we are the prioritized clientele here every day if you know my feeling.
Need a light?
hewley
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1063 Posts
September 06 2012 21:14 GMT
#45
On September 07 2012 01:23 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 00:51 Sayle wrote:
On September 07 2012 00:25 Stratos wrote:
The issue is promotion of the game. The way TL has been dealing with the changes sends a clear message: We will provide what the majority demands (Dota2) and cut on what was once our only lover (BW). ESPORTS/money won in this regard so far, I'd love to see this going in the opposite direction. What's stopping TL from promoting BW? Nothing but the opportunity to gain more by promoting different games. But that's not the TL we used to know. It's not like we can demand anything, it's up those with power. I've gradually lost almost all faith in "TL" though.


What BW is there left for TL to promote? The last OSL got plenty of front page coverage, taking up just as much space as any of the SC2 events even though the majority of users had no interest in it. Now that it's over, what exactly do you expect TL to promote? Ribbon's $100 no spire ZvZ tournament? You think that deserves a front page spot next to something like MLG? The requirements for getting BW events featured on the TL calendar is already way lower than getting an SC2 event featured. Similarly the requirements for getting a featured stream doing BW are lower as well (although less clearly defined). I don't really see what else you could expect from TL when there's basically no professional BW left to promote.

Easy. The best BW there is. Like the Korean amateur tournaments featuring players like Hiya that we're only now beginning to hear about. Or ISL and GC for the foreign scene. If TL wants to promote BW, they can promote the best BW there is. If they only want to promote what the mass will accept, then yeah there are countless other events that "deserve" coverage instead because a lot more people wants it in the first place and more money is involved.
I think it would be supercool to come here in 2 years time and see frequent BW news on the frontpage. Even if just a few of the users click them out of curiousity. Just to show to the world the legacy and that TL is proud of it and supports it no matter what. That TL is different. Instead of simply following the money.

But what can TL promote after OSL? That was the last well organized BW tourney, foreign or Korean doesn't matter. When I have to spend more time to find information about a tournament (actual, past results, schedule,...), you can't expect TL to do this for you, if the organization itself is a mess most of the time.
Esports bubble pop, bubble pop
sundersoft
Profile Joined November 2011
91 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-06 21:37:15
September 06 2012 21:34 GMT
#46
IMO the Torenhire Starleague is worthy of a front page article since most of the players and casters are well known in the community, so people with little interest in Brood War may still watch it just because e.g. Sayle is casting or Rekrul is playing. The organization and casting of the league is also good so that should keep people new to BW interested.

If this thread is for any general requests to tournament organizers, I haven't really seen any foreign tournaments with polls in the live report thread. If you start the poll during the live cast and, after the game, tell your viewers to go to the live report thread and vote, that should be enough to have about 10 votes per game at least. There are a lot of games played so it's difficult for causal viewers (who might want to only watch e.g. 1-2 hours of games per week) to find the best games to watch. This would also help with the Brood War Coverage threads which have vods of the most notable games.

Edit: Also, there could be a "help wanted" thread if tournament organizers want someone to e.g. cast or update liquipedia.
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9517 Posts
September 06 2012 21:46 GMT
#47
With the risk of going little off-topic, lets rehash all the criticism in this thread towards TL:

- The BW events are not on calendar - ok, this wasn't actually aimed at TL, but organizers of the tournament. And it's completely warranted. If you organize a tournament / league, it's expected of you to make your tournament available to as many people as possible. So please, if you organize a tournament, submit it to calendar, update your thread / liquipedia page with results + vods, make a thread on reddit if necessary to get more viewers... you know, do the stuff that organizers do.

- The BW events are mislabeled as SC2/Other on calendar - this is actually a legitimate issue. I don't have access to calendar stuff on TL, but I heard from others that this is a nuance (a bug?) when you're submitting your event that it will mislabel it. I'm not sure if it's a problem with a submission form or it's due to a human error, but it's definitely a problem worth fixing.

- Why doesn't TL make a BW portal - As a BW fan, I actually think that this would be a great idea too. But now we get to the problem, what do we put in a BW portal? Link to BW forums? BW streams? BW news? A page where you can only see stuff BW related? I agree, but then we get an overlap of information with default TL page which you can greatly customize yourself already. I'm actually curious how do you envision a TL:BW portal to look, so please write some constructive feedback if you have some good ideas.

- BW forum is below Dota 2 and SC2 forums - http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/leftsidebar.php - Customize it to your liking. Really, this is a pointless criticism and one that gets repeated way too often...

- TL doesn't post BW news - just because TL has covered professional Korean BW scene, shouldn't lead to expecting that they will also cover the amateur BW when professional scene doesn't exist anymore. You can't really expect that TL puts a Gambit Cup preview on its front page when you can't even find VODs of the tournament...



Ok, that's pretty much all I gathered. I think that BW community needs a certain level of professionalism if it means to survive in any form. Too much pointless drama, organizers not caring enough about their own tournaments, shady tournaments with huge prize money, blaming everyone and everything for BW's demise... are the things we should fix first before asking TL to do something. TL is not some entity that is disconnected from the community. Pretty much whole TL staff became staff by contributing in one way or another. So before you ask TL to do something, try to contribute something yourself first. The amount of PMs I got to help me on Amateur Brood War Coverage is disappointing to say the least and I assume that is something you expect of "TL" to do?

With all being said an done, I can guarantee you that a lot of people on TL's staff are still passionate about BW and we're actively seeking ways to make it more apparent. So please post some constructive criticism and try to be as specific as possible in identifying the problem and providing ideas on its solution.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 06 2012 22:58 GMT
#48
Here's my idea of how a BW portal could work.
[image loading]
En Taro Violet
Kau *
Profile Joined March 2007
Canada3500 Posts
September 06 2012 23:10 GMT
#49
On September 05 2012 18:30 GeLaar wrote:
Add to that the fact that some of us (for example me) need to do timezone conversions every time.


I wish everyone knew that they could use
[time]22:00 CET[/time]
.
You'll see that it will convert to whatever timezone you set in your profile: 21:00 GMT (+00:00).
Moderator
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
September 07 2012 00:00 GMT
#50
On September 07 2012 08:10 Kau wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2012 18:30 GeLaar wrote:
Add to that the fact that some of us (for example me) need to do timezone conversions every time.


I wish everyone knew that they could use
[time]22:00 CET[/time]
.
You'll see that it will convert to whatever timezone you set in your profile: 21:00 GMT (+00:00).


You can use [date][/date] too.

And you can customize the ordering of the sections of the page (and remove them), as people said.

Yeah, events need to be planned a long time in advance, on every point: Info thread, LP, Calendar, Streams/Casts, Schedule, Refs and keeping everything updated... only then everything will be acceptable and a lot more appealing to people, so more will come.

For this we need more people that want to get involved and I've seen more and more people doing so - I think we're going in a good direction right now, we just have to stay on the ball for a while and then score some points.
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
Pucca
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Taiwan1280 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 00:35:29
September 07 2012 00:35 GMT
#51
This thread has been talking about "Why TL does not cover BW events." People have stated due to the lack of consistency, the difficulty of finding VODs and or streams and lack of a pro-scene. I'd also like to mention that I think the overall productions of our streams and VODs are subpar that of which of SC2. The NASL and GSL are one of the two biggest tournaments year round for SC2. Their production quality is through the roof. The GSL you have the best casting duo in history Taseosis, they are funny, entertaining and most important know the game inside out. They have sick intro's nice overlays and graphics and their studio for sake is fantastic. You also have the ability to seemingly have the English or Korean VOD to your liking. The casters are always nicely dress giving a polished and professional look and feel to GOMTV's stream and VODs. The NASL the casters are two high level players (I believe Masters) they are entertaining, you know what to expect from them, they are dressed up their studio looks amazing. They have a production crew making overlay changes and such that it never interferes with viewers experience.

Now if we look are brood war in my eyes. We have disorganized VODs and streams. Now I'd argue its alright for different leagues to have different organization BUT they actually need to link the VODs in a pleasant and easy manner for people to access. That being said we have people who have bland overlays, cheap microphones, in and out streams constantly to the point it becomes unwatchable. This is a turn off for viewers. And this is only the tip of the iceburg in terms of getting a fancy looking stream when you compare ourselfs to the actual events that get covered by TeamLiquid. Lets even go further the scheduling of events. The GSL has given its viewers a 3 week calender of when games going to be casted and played. It is all these small things that would contribute to more awareness to our scene, and the longevity of brood if you wanted to say that. Me personally however I think we are doing fine.

While we might be the "Poor man's eSport" there are other things that could contribute to a better basis for our community and experience for viewers. One that everyone worked together, event organizers, casters and players. Meaning that don't X event organizer decides to ban a couple people from his or her events. At this point I think I'd heavily encourage anyone who is making suggestions if how to increase the awareness of Brood War to take it upon yourself very much what Hacklebeast wrote above and help contribute. I'd say go offer to update Liquidpedia. Offer to help to admin and organize times for players to match up and play each other. Become mediators between two members of the community so we stop this nonsensical banning and hating of each other or referred as "drama".

With all this being said, I think we can definitely improve our VODs to a degree and the organization for sure. I don't want to sound smarter then anyone here and anyone can feel free to disagree with me. I've been on and off YouTube productions for 5 years or so now. I've done a ton of trial of error and I've become somewhat adept at the technical side of videos. I definitely say first impressions on a video is the most important factor that organizers and casters give off to viewers to sustain those viewers. This normally done with a high defination Camera, graphics and narration and or content. Now because content and a HD camera are not really related to BW lets move away from those. Narration is very important. If you know brood war inside out and know builds and timings and know how they effect the game scenario then I'd say you'd make a great casters. Now there are some of us that just like to cast for the fun of it or just started getting into casting and you might not exactly know everything in the game. This is where you can be very entertaining and have the time pass for your viewers so you can learn as they learn and over time you can improve your own casting. At least that what I did, cast a ton be as entertaining as possible without being too distracting like getting really into the game. That is something that makes a quality video. Our casters voices are also important and if they have a dirt cheap microphone that echo's or has so much gain on it that half of the sound of the video is white noise is a immediate turn off for me. That being said I don't think you need to buy a 600$ setup for a microphone like I did but I honestly think if you got a dedicated microphone if your serious for the brood war scene I don't think it crazy for you to go and do some research and get 40$ decent microphone or a 100$ blue yeti. With narration tackled to the ground we need a way to spice up our VODs. Now obviously we are not Starcraft 2, we don't have 1920 x 1080 pixels to work with. But we have spice up our videos with a nice graphical overlay that displays the players information. Now this can be in several different ways I've seen for Brood War VODs. The ISL3 on the left side of the screen their was a rotating panel that displayed players stats another great addition to foreign brood war tournaments. I've seen the normal replay progress overlay that incorporates a nice picture to cover it up. While the player names are taking part of the screen in the top left of the screen, nothing flashy but it gets the job done. NOT taking a icon of a map and dragging it to the corner of the screen to cover the replay progress bar.It gives the impression that we are cheap, we don't want that. Or my own personal overlay where we take advantage of the 16 standard resolution of YouTube and Twitch.TV and use it to our advantage. Instead of wasting the left hand corner to display the tournament name and players name one we can just cover over the unless panels in the bottom right hand portion of the screen to display players names, current wins and losses of a series the map name and the actual tournament itself. I am bias towards my own overlay so of course I understand there are those people who do not like it.

If the three pages of discussion is a indication that people are serious of revamping the foreign brood war scene I'd say I'm ready to see it happen. I've already tried getting all my casts on the calender, make dedicated VOD pages, update LP of my tournament, constantly update tournament, incorporated VODs and stream, a fluid consistent stream and Perfect Audio and even got a little creative with my own personal intro music to all my VODs.

I will say for an organizer / caster it is time consuming to organize 20 something people and in some other peoples cases 32 or greater and to cast it all, update LP and do all the technical aspects is a lot to ask for. I'd reach out to others to see if you can help out by providing the results of tournaments into LP if your able. Help out with conflictions instead of feeding into the arugement. And lastly enjoy the scene thats the whole reason why we are here.

Thats my opinion if people agree with it I hope we might be able to change things of people are willing to help out. To respond that event organizers should make calenders events in advance. I think it is difficult but when I think it about there really is not a excuse for us not to place calender events.
Master Chief
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
September 07 2012 02:33 GMT
#52
I'd gladly switch back to BW from SC2/LoL/Dota2 if people still played. It's hard to find games.
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
HawaiianPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada5155 Posts
September 07 2012 03:18 GMT
#53
On September 07 2012 07:58 Stratos wrote:
Here's my idea of how a BW portal could work.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The majority of the sidebar requests you are making are already customizeable...

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/leftsidebar.php

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/sidebars.php

As for the idea that TL has abandoned BW... That's unfair. There is no more professional BW to cover. This is no fault of TL.

There is a handful of staff working on ways to competently cover amateur Brood War. The problem is, the scene isn't exactly as well organized as it needs to be for coherent coverage. We're working on it. Nonetheless, please continue to post suggestions. We're watching.
AdministratorNot actually Hawaiian.
HawaiianPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada5155 Posts
September 07 2012 03:23 GMT
#54
On September 07 2012 09:35 Pucca wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
This thread has been talking about "Why TL does not cover BW events." People have stated due to the lack of consistency, the difficulty of finding VODs and or streams and lack of a pro-scene. I'd also like to mention that I think the overall productions of our streams and VODs are subpar that of which of SC2. The NASL and GSL are one of the two biggest tournaments year round for SC2. Their production quality is through the roof. The GSL you have the best casting duo in history Taseosis, they are funny, entertaining and most important know the game inside out. They have sick intro's nice overlays and graphics and their studio for sake is fantastic. You also have the ability to seemingly have the English or Korean VOD to your liking. The casters are always nicely dress giving a polished and professional look and feel to GOMTV's stream and VODs. The NASL the casters are two high level players (I believe Masters) they are entertaining, you know what to expect from them, they are dressed up their studio looks amazing. They have a production crew making overlay changes and such that it never interferes with viewers experience.

Now if we look are brood war in my eyes. We have disorganized VODs and streams. Now I'd argue its alright for different leagues to have different organization BUT they actually need to link the VODs in a pleasant and easy manner for people to access. That being said we have people who have bland overlays, cheap microphones, in and out streams constantly to the point it becomes unwatchable. This is a turn off for viewers. And this is only the tip of the iceburg in terms of getting a fancy looking stream when you compare ourselfs to the actual events that get covered by TeamLiquid. Lets even go further the scheduling of events. The GSL has given its viewers a 3 week calender of when games going to be casted and played. It is all these small things that would contribute to more awareness to our scene, and the longevity of brood if you wanted to say that. Me personally however I think we are doing fine.

While we might be the "Poor man's eSport" there are other things that could contribute to a better basis for our community and experience for viewers. One that everyone worked together, event organizers, casters and players. Meaning that don't X event organizer decides to ban a couple people from his or her events. At this point I think I'd heavily encourage anyone who is making suggestions if how to increase the awareness of Brood War to take it upon yourself very much what Hacklebeast wrote above and help contribute. I'd say go offer to update Liquidpedia. Offer to help to admin and organize times for players to match up and play each other. Become mediators between two members of the community so we stop this nonsensical banning and hating of each other or referred as "drama".

With all this being said, I think we can definitely improve our VODs to a degree and the organization for sure. I don't want to sound smarter then anyone here and anyone can feel free to disagree with me. I've been on and off YouTube productions for 5 years or so now. I've done a ton of trial of error and I've become somewhat adept at the technical side of videos. I definitely say first impressions on a video is the most important factor that organizers and casters give off to viewers to sustain those viewers. This normally done with a high defination Camera, graphics and narration and or content. Now because content and a HD camera are not really related to BW lets move away from those. Narration is very important. If you know brood war inside out and know builds and timings and know how they effect the game scenario then I'd say you'd make a great casters. Now there are some of us that just like to cast for the fun of it or just started getting into casting and you might not exactly know everything in the game. This is where you can be very entertaining and have the time pass for your viewers so you can learn as they learn and over time you can improve your own casting. At least that what I did, cast a ton be as entertaining as possible without being too distracting like getting really into the game. That is something that makes a quality video. Our casters voices are also important and if they have a dirt cheap microphone that echo's or has so much gain on it that half of the sound of the video is white noise is a immediate turn off for me. That being said I don't think you need to buy a 600$ setup for a microphone like I did but I honestly think if you got a dedicated microphone if your serious for the brood war scene I don't think it crazy for you to go and do some research and get 40$ decent microphone or a 100$ blue yeti. With narration tackled to the ground we need a way to spice up our VODs. Now obviously we are not Starcraft 2, we don't have 1920 x 1080 pixels to work with. But we have spice up our videos with a nice graphical overlay that displays the players information. Now this can be in several different ways I've seen for Brood War VODs. The ISL3 on the left side of the screen their was a rotating panel that displayed players stats another great addition to foreign brood war tournaments. I've seen the normal replay progress overlay that incorporates a nice picture to cover it up. While the player names are taking part of the screen in the top left of the screen, nothing flashy but it gets the job done. NOT taking a icon of a map and dragging it to the corner of the screen to cover the replay progress bar.It gives the impression that we are cheap, we don't want that. Or my own personal overlay where we take advantage of the 16 standard resolution of YouTube and Twitch.TV and use it to our advantage. Instead of wasting the left hand corner to display the tournament name and players name one we can just cover over the unless panels in the bottom right hand portion of the screen to display players names, current wins and losses of a series the map name and the actual tournament itself. I am bias towards my own overlay so of course I understand there are those people who do not like it.

If the three pages of discussion is a indication that people are serious of revamping the foreign brood war scene I'd say I'm ready to see it happen. I've already tried getting all my casts on the calender, make dedicated VOD pages, update LP of my tournament, constantly update tournament, incorporated VODs and stream, a fluid consistent stream and Perfect Audio and even got a little creative with my own personal intro music to all my VODs.

I will say for an organizer / caster it is time consuming to organize 20 something people and in some other peoples cases 32 or greater and to cast it all, update LP and do all the technical aspects is a lot to ask for. I'd reach out to others to see if you can help out by providing the results of tournaments into LP if your able. Help out with conflictions instead of feeding into the arugement. And lastly enjoy the scene thats the whole reason why we are here.

Thats my opinion if people agree with it I hope we might be able to change things of people are willing to help out. To respond that event organizers should make calenders events in advance. I think it is difficult but when I think it about there really is not a excuse for us not to place calender events.


Totally agree with this. You'll notice the Torenhire Starleague (mostly run by TL staff and veterans) tries its best to have a consistent visual style.
AdministratorNot actually Hawaiian.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 05:49:54
September 07 2012 05:33 GMT
#55
On September 07 2012 12:18 HawaiianPig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 07:58 Stratos wrote:
Here's my idea of how a BW portal could work.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


The majority of the sidebar requests you are making are already customizeable...

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/leftsidebar.php

http://www.teamliquid.net/mytlnet/sidebars.php

As for the idea that TL has abandoned BW... That's unfair. There is no more professional BW to cover. This is no fault of TL.

There is a handful of staff working on ways to competently cover amateur Brood War. The problem is, the scene isn't exactly as well organized as it needs to be for coherent coverage. We're working on it. Nonetheless, please continue to post suggestions. We're watching.

The idea was that when the player clicks on the BW portal the layout of the page would adjust to work best for BW. Hence moving BW up etc. but yeah it's unnecessary and would probably make the site a mess.

Any word on: private BW events?
Always show streams?
The rest of the suggestions that actually make the core of the portal - BW spotlight, BW news, BW results? Note that these would all link to threads/blogs/posts or a liquipedia page, it's just highlighting them in an organized fashion.
En Taro Violet
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
September 07 2012 07:03 GMT
#56
On September 07 2012 14:33 Stratos wrote:
Any word on: private BW events?
Always show streams?
The rest of the suggestions that actually make the core of the portal - BW spotlight, BW news, BW results? Note that these would all link to threads/blogs/posts or a liquipedia page, it's just highlighting them in an organized fashion.


From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements. What other 'private BW events' are there to feature?

"Always show streams" is a pretty trivial complaint. Admittedly, it's probably also a fairly trivial change to add that feature to the customization options, but this just seems like nitpicking.

For your "BW spotlight, BW news, BW results" sections, what actually goes there? There are at best 2-3 good new threads per week in all the BW forums combined, and that's probably going to drop off now that OSL/SPL threads are going away. The only two high level amateur events that we have any coverage of are Gambit's Cup and the Chinese OSL and the coverage of those is shoddy. As people have said, it's almost impossible to follow GC even if you try. I always look for the latest results for that since I can't watch the streams, but I can never find them until draW randomly makes a blog post weeks later. On the other hand, people keep talking up the C-OSL and how the Chinese scene is going to save BW and yet the Ro8 thread, Ro4 thread and finals thread got less than four pages of comments combined. As far as I know, live streaming of the event was also inconsistent (actually this goes for GC too), and the VODs as you can see in those threads are super low quality.

People are also talking about covering the amateur Korean scene that has notable players like Hiya, Pusan and Anytime, but who is going to do that? A few threads popped up a while ago for the hOdduk Starleague and the team league that FAT (foreigner allstar team) participated in also got some coverage, but I haven't really heard anything from that scene since then. The only glimpse I'm getting from them recently is random Afreeca restreams on kjwcj's stream.

This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 07 2012 07:08 GMT
#57
On September 07 2012 06:46 2Pacalypse- wrote:
With the risk of going little off-topic, lets rehash all the criticism in this thread towards TL:

[...]


- The BW events are mislabeled as SC2/Other on calendar - this is actually a legitimate issue. I don't have access to calendar stuff on TL, but I heard from others that this is a nuance (a bug?) when you're submitting your event that it will mislabel it. I'm not sure if it's a problem with a submission form or it's due to a human error, but it's definitely a problem worth fixing.


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=343148
0 Responses



- Why doesn't TL make a BW portal - As a BW fan, I actually think that this would be a great idea too. But now we get to the problem, what do we put in a BW portal? Link to BW forums? BW streams? BW news? A page where you can only see stuff BW related? I agree, but then we get an overlap of information with default TL page which you can greatly customize yourself already. I'm actually curious how do you envision a TL:BW portal to look, so please write some constructive feedback if you have some good ideas.


I already kind of asked Pholon to install some sort of option to remote control streams for some users. This way we might get more streams we can only find on defiler. I'm not asking to allow Scan back, but the option to turn on/off a stream for players like Pado/IloveJesus and other non-English speaking streamers could be quite cool.


[...]

- TL doesn't post BW news - just because TL has covered professional Korean BW scene, shouldn't lead to expecting that they will also cover the amateur BW when professional scene doesn't exist anymore. You can't really expect that TL puts a Gambit Cup preview on its front page when you can't even find VODs of the tournament...



Ok, that's pretty much all I gathered. I think that BW community needs a certain level of professionalism if it means to survive in any form. Too much pointless drama, organizers not caring enough about their own tournaments, shady tournaments with huge prize money, blaming everyone and everything for BW's demise... are the things we should fix first before asking TL to do something. TL is not some entity that is disconnected from the community. Pretty much whole TL staff became staff by contributing in one way or another. So before you ask TL to do something, try to contribute something yourself first. The amount of PMs I got to help me on Amateur Brood War Coverage is disappointing to say the least and I assume that is something you expect of "TL" to do?

With all being said an done, I can guarantee you that a lot of people on TL's staff are still passionate about BW and we're actively seeking ways to make it more apparent. So please post some constructive criticism and try to be as specific as possible in identifying the problem and providing ideas on its solution.


Well, I agree that TL policy is quite in favour of the BW organizers, anything gets on calendar. Then again, why? Don't complain about shady threads, bad organization, etc. Just don't support it and close it. Educate the organizers: they do a bad job and you don't give them a platform. If an event has too much drama, don't add it to the calendar. If an OP lacks info (but still has 1500++ words) close the OP and have it re-written.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 07:54:37
September 07 2012 07:48 GMT
#58
On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 14:33 Stratos wrote:
Any word on: private BW events?
Always show streams?
The rest of the suggestions that actually make the core of the portal - BW spotlight, BW news, BW results? Note that these would all link to threads/blogs/posts or a liquipedia page, it's just highlighting them in an organized fashion.


From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements. What other 'private BW events' are there to feature?

Stuff like the iFU showmatch series without a prizepool.


"Always show streams" is a pretty trivial complaint. Admittedly, it's probably also a fairly trivial change to add that feature to the customization options, but this just seems like nitpicking.

If you had the site/streams on BW only for a longer time and each time you clicked anything on the site, you had to click "show 2-non featured" to make sure it's not someone new that you'd like to check out, it would maybe seem less trivial. It is nitpicking, but nitpicking is how any site gets better and more comfortable for the user.


For your "BW spotlight, BW news, BW results" sections, what actually goes there? There are at best 2-3 good new threads per week in all the BW forums combined, and that's probably going to drop off now that OSL/SPL threads are going away. The only two high level amateur events that we have any coverage of are Gambit's Cup and the Chinese OSL and the coverage of those is shoddy. As people have said, it's almost impossible to follow GC even if you try. I always look for the latest results for that since I can't watch the streams, but I can never find them until draW randomly makes a blog post weeks later. On the other hand, people keep talking up the C-OSL and how the Chinese scene is going to save BW and yet the Ro8 thread, Ro4 thread and finals thread got less than four pages of comments combined. As far as I know, live streaming of the event was also inconsistent (actually this goes for GC too), and the VODs as you can see in those threads are super low quality.

So what? There's not an influx of important BW news but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be highlighted in an organized fashion. As it stands, all that BW has is the forums. And the way these forums are organized - "Hot" + "Everything else" is not friendly to anyone who's not logging in on a daily basis. Why not highlight the most important things on the frontpage of a BW portal so that casual visitors easily get what they might have missed?
The lack of interest in the C-OSL threads is nothing but another reason to do it. I don't know what low VOD quality has to do with anything.


People are also talking about covering the amateur Korean scene that has notable players like Hiya, Pusan and Anytime, but who is going to do that? A few threads popped up a while ago for the hOdduk Starleague and the team league that FAT (foreigner allstar team) participated in also got some coverage, but I haven't really heard anything from that scene since then. The only glimpse I'm getting from them recently is random Afreeca restreams on kjwcj's stream.

Spotlight the stream, hopefully someone will report more about the scene (it has been promised by ArvickHero I believe). Why is that I got to learn about this in some random thread? Things like this should be easily accessible, if possible. All I'm trying to say is that there might be an easy way to do it - the BW portal. Draw attention to interesting new facts and someone will take the initiative. As there are SC2 and Dota2 portals already working, I can imagine it wouldn't be that hard to get a BW one going. Will there be less content? Sure. Is it a good reason to not make it happen? Imo not. If someone wants good BW coverage, he should get it on TL. We should not make excuses and do our best. Is there enough will and manpower? Not sure. But let's be positive and think of new ways instead of saying "oh well amateurs are amateurs nobody cares".


This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.

Fair enough. I never said TL hates BW but that there is content that could be featured (like the ABC coverage). And there's no real time investment in featuring news like this on the frontpage. The only reason to not do it is because there's something "better" to show. And personally I find it sad that the best BW coverage there is at the moment isn't important anymore on TL. (Btw. Idk it might've actually been spotlighted, I don't follow this since I visit the forums too often to miss something like this)

Overall what I'm reading is: If something is not good enough to get hundreds of pages of comments, we shouldn't concern ourselves with it. But that's bullshit imo. There is a good enough amateur BW scene that can always improve but I think it's far from "not being able to take care of itself". I think that's actually some nitpicking on your part. The issues with the calendar have only been temporary and as far as not updating the threads or liquipedia immediately, it seems the organizers will focus on this more from now on. And even if not, it's still no reason to not introduce any of the features I proposed. If there's not enough manpower and/or will to make it possible, say it like this instead of listing all the reasons why we shouldn't do it.
En Taro Violet
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 07 2012 10:09 GMT
#59
Well now, there are currently four events on my Calendar, and I'm a happy person. Thanks to everyone who added the events (whether or not it had anything to do with my original request).

Also, people are seriously discussing how to improve the community, so this thread is a massive success as far as I'm concerned.
Brood War is alive and well.
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 07 2012 10:37 GMT
#60
On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements.


The way you say it, it sounds as it is a favor done to us that these streams are even allowed on the Calendar.

On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.


I'm past being bitter about this, but it is a matter of TL abandoning us. This has gone on since well before professional BW was nearing its end (since before even the last MSL finals, in fact), and has nothing to do with the shakiness of the amateur scene. And the condescending and sometimes downright rude attitude some of the staff members have had towards BW fans who complained, has done a lot to erode the good feelings I had about this site.
Brood War is alive and well.
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 07 2012 13:22 GMT
#61
So I tried something out. Not sure if it'll work lol. Crude but effective.

http://broodwarvods.webs.com/

Everything I need to say is on the about page.

Viva la Brood War!
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9517 Posts
September 07 2012 13:46 GMT
#62
On September 07 2012 19:37 GeLaar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements.


The way you say it, it sounds as it is a favor done to us that these streams are even allowed on the Calendar.

Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.


I'm past being bitter about this, but it is a matter of TL abandoning us. This has gone on since well before professional BW was nearing its end (since before even the last MSL finals, in fact), and has nothing to do with the shakiness of the amateur scene. And the condescending and sometimes downright rude attitude some of the staff members have had towards BW fans who complained, has done a lot to erode the good feelings I had about this site.

Please stop talking out of your ass and instead post some constructive criticism. Saying TL abandoned you doesn't mean anything and it certainly doesn't help anything. Try to be more specific about the problems you're having with TL and say what would be an optimal solution in your mind. I'll repeat again, TL is not some entity that is disconnected from the community. TL staff are members of the community. So please write something substantial and we actually might do something about it, together. Hearing your pointless grumbling without offering any insight into the problem is very disheartening, especially since we're actively seeking ways to please the BW community.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 14:01:02
September 07 2012 13:57 GMT
#63
On September 07 2012 22:22 BookTwo wrote:
So I tried something out. Not sure if it'll work lol. Crude but effective.

http://broodwarvods.webs.com/

Everything I need to say is on the about page.

Viva la Brood War!

Sick. Few ideas.
1. Structure of the site. If you embed plenty youtube videos in one page, certain clients (like my chrome) will have troubles loading the page. Also as the content might increase in numbers, some kind of a structure will probably be necessary.
How this could work: Main page > DRTL Season 3 > DRTL Week 1 page with vods
Main page > DRTL Season 3 > DRTL Week 2 page with vods etc.

2. Add the team names in the description below if possible.

Ultimately it would probably be better if we could just get BW results in a TL BW portal linking to liquipedia pages with VODs.. but like you point out on the site, this is not a bad idea at all until something like that (possibly) happens.

Or, even better, is there any reason why we're not using this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international for the foreign scene? With professional BW gone why not make use of this? It would also be useful for creating player/team statistics. If we could get this thing started I'm confident we could find enough contributors to make it work and cover at least the biggest events (ISL, GC etc.). After all it's TL BW International Gaming Database. Gaming, not progaming. Also, the scene is not that big if we don't include yellow, red and no spire leagues.

Does anyone have experience with how this works? Who's responsible for the international BW section? How could one help mantaining it? For an idea, this is what the community has already been able to come up with on liquipedia: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Category:Foreign_Players
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Category:Tournaments
En Taro Violet
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 14:17:19
September 07 2012 14:14 GMT
#64
On September 07 2012 22:22 BookTwo wrote:
So I tried something out. Not sure if it'll work lol. Crude but effective.

http://broodwarvods.webs.com/

Everything I need to say is on the about page.

Viva la Brood War!


I, for one, like it already.

If I may offer one suggestions, though: Having links to VODs is awesome, but clicking on one event loads up all of the embedded VODs at once, which eats up a lot of processing power unnecessarily, and makes for long loading times. Would it be possible to do something similar to the spoiler tags in the TL.net forums, so that an embedded VOD only gets loaded when someone clicks on a link to unspoiler?

The Small VOD thread used to be like this, but recently someone else has been updating the thread, and he or she is using the spoiler tags differently, so that all of the flash elements load when you go to a page, even if you don't click to unspoiler.

But overall, I think this could turn out really great. Having one place to collect VOD links for different BW events would be massive.

Big thanks!
Brood War is alive and well.
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9517 Posts
September 07 2012 14:28 GMT
#65
On September 07 2012 22:57 Stratos wrote:
Or, even better, is there any reason why we're not using this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international for the foreign scene? With professional BW gone why not make use of this? It would also be useful for creating player/team statistics. If we could get this thing started I'm confident we could find enough contributors to make it work and cover at least the biggest events (ISL, GC etc.). After all it's TL BW International Gaming Database. Gaming, not progaming. Also, the scene is not that big if we don't include yellow, red and no spire leagues.

There is actually a thread in staff forums about reviving this, but TL's staff forums move at snail pace so it kinda died down. I just bumped it so hopefully we'll have foreign BW scene in TLPD soon.

Regardless of that, I think the biggest underused source we have is Liquipedia. And the main point of Liquipedia is that EVERYONE can contribute.

In case you didn't know, there is a (Wiki)Portal:Foreign Scene page. And this portal is in desperate need of contributors. So if you're following tournaments in foreign BW scene and you notice something missing there, add it yourself! If that portal was kept up to date there is pretty much nothing we would need more to keep ourselves updated on the current stuff in foreign BW scene.

I noticed that almost all tournaments currently running have their own Liquipedia page, which is commendable, but when I go to (Wiki)Leagues (Foreign) page I don't see them listed, which is a shame since that would be a pretty cool place to see all the leagues currently running and their status.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Eywa-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada4876 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 15:09:58
September 07 2012 15:07 GMT
#66
On September 07 2012 23:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 22:57 Stratos wrote:
Or, even better, is there any reason why we're not using this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international for the foreign scene? With professional BW gone why not make use of this? It would also be useful for creating player/team statistics. If we could get this thing started I'm confident we could find enough contributors to make it work and cover at least the biggest events (ISL, GC etc.). After all it's TL BW International Gaming Database. Gaming, not progaming. Also, the scene is not that big if we don't include yellow, red and no spire leagues.

There is actually a thread in staff forums about reviving this, but TL's staff forums move at snail pace so it kinda died down. I just bumped it so hopefully we'll have foreign BW scene in TLPD soon.

Regardless of that, I think the biggest underused source we have is Liquipedia. And the main point of Liquipedia is that EVERYONE can contribute.

In case you didn't know, there is a (Wiki)Portal:Foreign Scene page. And this portal is in desperate need of contributors. So if you're following tournaments in foreign BW scene and you notice something missing there, add it yourself! If that portal was kept up to date there is pretty much nothing we would need more to keep ourselves updated on the current stuff in foreign BW scene.

I noticed that almost all tournaments currently running have their own Liquipedia page, which is commendable, but when I go to (Wiki)Leagues (Foreign) page I don't see them listed, which is a shame since that would be a pretty cool place to see all the leagues currently running and their status.

I tried to add all the current active players to the foreign portal on liquipedia so that people would be able to see who's playing in this league game, but the ones judged to not be accomplished enough were removed and I'm still banned from posting anything on liquipedia due to articles on Semih and Favorite.

Edit: So this is not an option, given that most players who are currently playing aren't good enough to be recognized.
Being mannered is almost as important as winning. Almost...
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 07 2012 15:27 GMT
#67
On September 07 2012 23:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
[...]
Regardless of that, I think the biggest underused source we have is Liquipedia. And the main point of Liquipedia is that EVERYONE can contribute.
[...]


Sorry for quoting you again, but that's like one issue most of the OPs miss in their threads. I don't want to piss of anyone, but it seems to me that it is more common to start a thread like this every other month or every other week, depending on which event recently died, starting to order people around without actually doing anything. There are only very few persons to actually try to edit LP, regardless of how easy it is to start writing. After that the biggest part of the first-time editors go back and think that's it. Right now there are like ten persons at best that edited foreign Brood War articles - endy for example. You feel so alone, no support or anything coming from the community. It's just wasted time and energy, especially when you see that the newest tournaments mostly ignore LP and just rely on the rest of "us" (whoever that is that still cares enough) to fill what they didn't care to do. How can you ask someone to help if you don't give enough shit to provide the essential information that's needed for free? It seems that the more people stand around, the more people expect everyone else to do the work, so you have more time to complain.

With that in mind I just can applaud to people that keep stuff like DRTL, Defiler, ABC and ThSL running. People should start to realize that "the past" events were so great because everyone contributed. Not only the orgas, pages like TL/GG/bw.de, but also the user base. I miss that and I honestly don't see the spirit here anymore. Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
2Pacalypse-
Profile Joined October 2006
Croatia9517 Posts
September 07 2012 15:28 GMT
#68
On September 08 2012 00:07 Eywa- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 23:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
On September 07 2012 22:57 Stratos wrote:
Or, even better, is there any reason why we're not using this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international for the foreign scene? With professional BW gone why not make use of this? It would also be useful for creating player/team statistics. If we could get this thing started I'm confident we could find enough contributors to make it work and cover at least the biggest events (ISL, GC etc.). After all it's TL BW International Gaming Database. Gaming, not progaming. Also, the scene is not that big if we don't include yellow, red and no spire leagues.

There is actually a thread in staff forums about reviving this, but TL's staff forums move at snail pace so it kinda died down. I just bumped it so hopefully we'll have foreign BW scene in TLPD soon.

Regardless of that, I think the biggest underused source we have is Liquipedia. And the main point of Liquipedia is that EVERYONE can contribute.

In case you didn't know, there is a (Wiki)Portal:Foreign Scene page. And this portal is in desperate need of contributors. So if you're following tournaments in foreign BW scene and you notice something missing there, add it yourself! If that portal was kept up to date there is pretty much nothing we would need more to keep ourselves updated on the current stuff in foreign BW scene.

I noticed that almost all tournaments currently running have their own Liquipedia page, which is commendable, but when I go to (Wiki)Leagues (Foreign) page I don't see them listed, which is a shame since that would be a pretty cool place to see all the leagues currently running and their status.

I tried to add all the current active players to the foreign portal on liquipedia so that people would be able to see who's playing in this league game, but the ones judged to not be accomplished enough were removed and I'm still banned from posting anything on liquipedia due to articles on Semih and Favorite.

Edit: So this is not an option, given that most players who are currently playing aren't good enough to be recognized.

Maybe you should leave editing Liquipedia to others then and you focus on updating your OWN threads.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363742
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363912
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361696

I won't even mention Gambit Cup which is supposed to be the most prestigious BW team league and yet I need to spend an hour to find the results and VODs, which is a 2 hour long video file. You named your thread [R&S] Gambit's Cup Round 1, but do you know what [R&S] even stands for? It's Results and Standings, which is just misleading to label your thread like that.

I don't know what got you banned from editing Liquipedia, but I know that Liquipedia admins don't hand out their bans lightly. So please don't spread false propaganda as editing Liquipedia is still very much an option, but there are rules which you must follow or otherwise it would end up a cesspool of misinformation.
Moderator"We're a community of geniuses because we've found how to extract 95% of the feeling of doing something amazing without actually doing anything." - Chill
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 15:45:25
September 07 2012 15:43 GMT
#69
On September 07 2012 23:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 22:57 Stratos wrote:
Or, even better, is there any reason why we're not using this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international for the foreign scene? With professional BW gone why not make use of this? It would also be useful for creating player/team statistics. If we could get this thing started I'm confident we could find enough contributors to make it work and cover at least the biggest events (ISL, GC etc.). After all it's TL BW International Gaming Database. Gaming, not progaming. Also, the scene is not that big if we don't include yellow, red and no spire leagues.

There is actually a thread in staff forums about reviving this, but TL's staff forums move at snail pace so it kinda died down. I just bumped it so hopefully we'll have foreign BW scene in TLPD soon.

This is great news!


Regardless of that, I think the biggest underused source we have is Liquipedia. And the main point of Liquipedia is that EVERYONE can contribute.

In case you didn't know, there is a (Wiki)Portal:Foreign Scene page. And this portal is in desperate need of contributors. So if you're following tournaments in foreign BW scene and you notice something missing there, add it yourself! If that portal was kept up to date there is pretty much nothing we would need more to keep ourselves updated on the current stuff in foreign BW scene.
I noticed that almost all tournaments currently running have their own Liquipedia page, which is commendable, but when I go to (Wiki)Leagues (Foreign) page I don't see them listed, which is a shame since that would be a pretty cool place to see all the leagues currently running and their status.

And that's kinda the story with liquipedia atm. Few of us started contributing and a lot of the organizers are doing a great job but it will take some time for everyone to adjust to this (I mean since this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345229 ). There's no underlying system, it's just page after page that are connected by linking to each other and that's it.

So if you consider that one team splits into to, you need to create 2 new team pages, announce retirement in the original team page, change the team in the profile page of every member of the new teams + in the foreign portal overview of active players + god knows where. It's almost impossible to do everything right if you're new to editing and liquipedia in general.
Nevertheless liquipedia is a great source and it's up to us to learn how to use it properly as did the generations before us, and not the other way around.

The only reason I'm mentioning this is because (if I understand the system right) this is not the case with TLPD. If such a change of teams happen, I would assume you just edit this in one place and it affects every other page where the team/player might be displayed. + There are the individual matches history with VODs, statistics and all that good stuff, which is realistically impossible to achieve in the liquipedia system. So I really hope that foreign TLPD could be revived. Good news, good stuff. Let's hope for the best Hope = restored!
En Taro Violet
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
September 07 2012 16:24 GMT
#70
On September 07 2012 22:22 BookTwo wrote:
So I tried something out. Not sure if it'll work lol. Crude but effective.

http://broodwarvods.webs.com/

Everything I need to say is on the about page.

Viva la Brood War!


Looks really nice, good work!
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
don_kyuhote
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
3006 Posts
September 07 2012 16:33 GMT
#71
On September 07 2012 22:22 BookTwo wrote:
So I tried something out. Not sure if it'll work lol. Crude but effective.

http://broodwarvods.webs.com/

Everything I need to say is on the about page.

Viva la Brood War!

Wow, awesome!!!
For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
September 07 2012 17:29 GMT
#72
I completely agree with everything 2pac and Gecko are saying. The current BW "community" is far too happy with just blaming TL/SC2/ponies for not supporting them when almost nobody puts in any effort themselves. And even those that do make things happen are often embroiled in various stupid arguments and drama which just tarnishes whatever work they've done. If you want TL to spotlight the current amateur BW scene, then make it something worth spotlighting. At the moment, I'd actually be embarassed if any of the foreigner events made it to the front page because of how poor they make the scene look.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6760 Posts
September 07 2012 19:21 GMT
#73
On September 08 2012 02:29 Sayle wrote:
I completely agree with everything 2pac and Gecko are saying. The current BW "community" is far too happy with just blaming TL/SC2/ponies for not supporting them when almost nobody puts in any effort themselves. And even those that do make things happen are often embroiled in various stupid arguments and drama which just tarnishes whatever work they've done. If you want TL to spotlight the current amateur BW scene, then make it something worth spotlighting. At the moment, I'd actually be embarassed if any of the foreigner events made it to the front page because of how poor they make the scene look.

hard to eat but true
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
September 07 2012 19:53 GMT
#74
On September 08 2012 02:29 Sayle wrote:
I completely agree with everything 2pac and Gecko are saying. The current BW "community" is far too happy with just blaming TL/SC2/ponies for not supporting them when almost nobody puts in any effort themselves. And even those that do make things happen are often embroiled in various stupid arguments and drama which just tarnishes whatever work they've done. If you want TL to spotlight the current amateur BW scene, then make it something worth spotlighting. At the moment, I'd actually be embarassed if any of the foreigner events made it to the front page because of how poor they make the scene look.

I assume you're including ISL3, and if that's the case, have to disagree.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
September 07 2012 20:10 GMT
#75
On September 08 2012 00:27 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.

Are you implying that these don't make it better?
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 07 2012 21:30 GMT
#76
On September 08 2012 05:10 Game wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 00:27 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.

Are you implying that these don't make it better?


The way they're used now make it worse. A giant artificial hype around an agenda based event with no further information - that's today's standard. Most of these are updated for about the first 50%, then stuff gets completely ignored and the ordinary viewer/user has a hard time to follow. There are other events that use money for low level players - I honestly don't get why the people that still play (after 2++ years of a dead foreign scene) need 100$++ to get their asses up to play or do anything remotely productive.

I get that this makes stuff more interesting, but it shouldn't be the only motivation (which it seems to be) for the players / organizers. A huge prize pool doesn't mean it'll be a good tournament. A big banner and three pages of badly phrased rules don't guarantee overview. This is stuff you organize to support the event, not to artificially hype something that would not work otherwise.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-07 21:55:15
September 07 2012 21:51 GMT
#77
On September 08 2012 06:30 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 05:10 Game wrote:
On September 08 2012 00:27 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.

Are you implying that these don't make it better?


The way they're used now make it worse. A giant artificial hype around an agenda based event with no further information - that's today's standard. Most of these are updated for about the first 50%, then stuff gets completely ignored and the ordinary viewer/user has a hard time to follow. There are other events that use money for low level players - I honestly don't get why the people that still play (after 2++ years of a dead foreign scene) need 100$++ to get their asses up to play or do anything remotely productive.

I get that this makes stuff more interesting, but it shouldn't be the only motivation (which it seems to be) for the players / organizers. A huge prize pool doesn't mean it'll be a good tournament. A big banner and three pages of badly phrased rules don't guarantee overview. This is stuff you organize to support the event, not to artificially hype something that would not work otherwise.

This is where you went wrong. Constructive criticism stops the second you insert a delusional opinion of something that's simply false. I agree that certain aspects of the community need to stop having money injected into them. However, you not only generalize this as the entire community in your posts, but define the scene as something that no longer exists in a practical manner. You're just wrong.

Under your logic, I have to propose a question. If the scene has been dead for two years, are we all simply necrophiliac whores? After all, if we have the ability to acquire sponsors and inject money into the dead scene, we are alive and need the money, yet some estranged morgue rapists?
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 07 2012 22:57 GMT
#78
On September 07 2012 23:14 GeLaar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 22:22 BookTwo wrote:
So I tried something out. Not sure if it'll work lol. Crude but effective.

http://broodwarvods.webs.com/

Everything I need to say is on the about page.

Viva la Brood War!


I, for one, like it already.

If I may offer one suggestions, though: Having links to VODs is awesome, but clicking on one event loads up all of the embedded VODs at once, which eats up a lot of processing power unnecessarily, and makes for long loading times. Would it be possible to do something similar to the spoiler tags in the TL.net forums, so that an embedded VOD only gets loaded when someone clicks on a link to unspoiler?

The Small VOD thread used to be like this, but recently someone else has been updating the thread, and he or she is using the spoiler tags differently, so that all of the flash elements load when you go to a page, even if you don't click to unspoiler.

But overall, I think this could turn out really great. Having one place to collect VOD links for different BW events would be massive.

Big thanks!


No. webs.com is a free website creation tool. If they had spoiler tags I'd definitely use them. I'm still making it as spoiler free as possible.

And thanks for the vote of confidence everyone!


Xiphos
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada7507 Posts
September 07 2012 23:53 GMT
#79
On September 08 2012 06:51 Game wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 06:30 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
On September 08 2012 05:10 Game wrote:
On September 08 2012 00:27 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.

Are you implying that these don't make it better?


The way they're used now make it worse. A giant artificial hype around an agenda based event with no further information - that's today's standard. Most of these are updated for about the first 50%, then stuff gets completely ignored and the ordinary viewer/user has a hard time to follow. There are other events that use money for low level players - I honestly don't get why the people that still play (after 2++ years of a dead foreign scene) need 100$++ to get their asses up to play or do anything remotely productive.

I get that this makes stuff more interesting, but it shouldn't be the only motivation (which it seems to be) for the players / organizers. A huge prize pool doesn't mean it'll be a good tournament. A big banner and three pages of badly phrased rules don't guarantee overview. This is stuff you organize to support the event, not to artificially hype something that would not work otherwise.

This is where you went wrong. Constructive criticism stops the second you insert a delusional opinion of something that's simply false. I agree that certain aspects of the community need to stop having money injected into them. However, you not only generalize this as the entire community in your posts, but define the scene as something that no longer exists in a practical manner. You're just wrong.

Under your logic, I have to propose a question. If the scene has been dead for two years, are we all simply necrophiliac whores? After all, if we have the ability to acquire sponsors and inject money into the dead scene, we are alive and need the money, yet some estranged morgue rapists?


Man knows how to paint a picture lol
2014 - ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ Raise your bows brood warriors! ᕙ( •̀ل͜•́) ϡ
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 08 2012 00:39 GMT
#80
On September 08 2012 06:51 Game wrote:
[...]
This is where you went wrong. Constructive criticism stops the second you insert a delusional opinion of something that's simply false. I agree that certain aspects of the community need to stop having money injected into them. However, you not only generalize this as the entire community in your posts, but define the scene as something that no longer exists in a practical manner. You're just wrong.

Under your logic, I have to propose a question. If the scene has been dead for two years, are we all simply necrophiliac whores? After all, if we have the ability to acquire sponsors and inject money into the dead scene, we are alive and need the money, yet some estranged morgue rapists?


I have problems to understand your last sentence. Since the Beta almost every page broke down. What used to be the biggest foreign platform can be happy to have 800 players online, a year ago 1000. Broodwar.de used to have a server (up to mid 2010) only for rookies, and they had around 100 more or less active players with more than 1500 accounts registered. _Only German speaking_ rookies. If you really want to compare the scene now to what it used to be before Beta, you're gonna have to admit that it is basically dead. There is no more international scene to speak of, no more nation wars (friendly based), something like the GG.net ranking, updated LP coverage, anything that could be really compared to TSL/WCG or stuff like Zotac/incup/bw4ever/ESL, not to mention more than TL for English coverage. Where are the new players? Like really enough players to at least make up for those who left entirely?

I won't stop anyone from dreaming or flame the persons that still try to give their best to still promote Brood War, organize stuff like DRTL and good tours like ThSL, but sorry, don't try to cover up that it's not gonna be anything like before SCII. The chances to have a bigger scene again are beyond impossible. And with most stuff going on right now I don't see this changing anytime soon.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Game
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
3191 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-08 00:52:56
September 08 2012 00:50 GMT
#81
On September 08 2012 09:39 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 06:51 Game wrote:
[...]
This is where you went wrong. Constructive criticism stops the second you insert a delusional opinion of something that's simply false. I agree that certain aspects of the community need to stop having money injected into them. However, you not only generalize this as the entire community in your posts, but define the scene as something that no longer exists in a practical manner. You're just wrong.

Under your logic, I have to propose a question. If the scene has been dead for two years, are we all simply necrophiliac whores? After all, if we have the ability to acquire sponsors and inject money into the dead scene, we are alive and need the money, yet some estranged morgue rapists?


I have problems to understand your last sentence. Since the Beta almost every page broke down. What used to be the biggest foreign platform can be happy to have 800 players online, a year ago 1000. Broodwar.de used to have a server (up to mid 2010) only for rookies, and they had around 100 more or less active players with more than 1500 accounts registered. _Only German speaking_ rookies. If you really want to compare the scene now to what it used to be before Beta, you're gonna have to admit that it is basically dead. There is no more international scene to speak of, no more nation wars (friendly based), something like the GG.net ranking, updated LP coverage, anything that could be really compared to TSL/WCG or stuff like Zotac/incup/bw4ever/ESL, not to mention more than TL for English coverage. Where are the new players? Like really enough players to at least make up for those who left entirely?

I won't stop anyone from dreaming or flame the persons that still try to give their best to still promote Brood War, organize stuff like DRTL and good tours like ThSL, but sorry, don't try to cover up that it's not gonna be anything like before SCII. The chances to have a bigger scene again are beyond impossible. And with most stuff going on right now I don't see this changing anytime soon.

Like I said, don't list your delusional opinions as something that is true. It's misleading to those who aren't cutting palms to shake hands with the devil committed to the foreign SC:BW community. You slightly altered your position on death, which kind've makes us those who rape the elderly in homes. Followed by that (here's the delusional part) you just stated that the scene is "basically dead" because it's not the same as it was before SC2. That's idiotic reasoning at best.

I think I'd be dragging this on by pointing out that you discredit all leagues repetitively by not listing the most major ones over the past two years, since this is your time sample I felt it appropriate to mention it. I'd also be dragging it out by mentioning that there is... an international scene? Not sure what you're basing that off of. Not sending white people to Korea? Also, GG.net just updated their rankings. But that'd be me using your reasoning, which has an entirely populated scene (just not on the server you seem to like) being dead, because you say so.

Edit: Since I'm a gentlemen I'll answer your two questions in one sentence. Yeah, I know, I'm cool. There are ample new players, just obviously not enough to fill the void of those who left for SC2 (and now other games as SC2 flops). Since the population of foreign BW was cut directly in half by the release of SC2, I'd like to point out that the new player ratio is perfectly proportionate to size.
SC is like sex. You should play often, but never too hard. And you should only try hard when it matters.
Eywa-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada4876 Posts
September 08 2012 01:41 GMT
#82
On September 08 2012 00:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 00:07 Eywa- wrote:
On September 07 2012 23:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
On September 07 2012 22:57 Stratos wrote:
Or, even better, is there any reason why we're not using this: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/international for the foreign scene? With professional BW gone why not make use of this? It would also be useful for creating player/team statistics. If we could get this thing started I'm confident we could find enough contributors to make it work and cover at least the biggest events (ISL, GC etc.). After all it's TL BW International Gaming Database. Gaming, not progaming. Also, the scene is not that big if we don't include yellow, red and no spire leagues.

There is actually a thread in staff forums about reviving this, but TL's staff forums move at snail pace so it kinda died down. I just bumped it so hopefully we'll have foreign BW scene in TLPD soon.

Regardless of that, I think the biggest underused source we have is Liquipedia. And the main point of Liquipedia is that EVERYONE can contribute.

In case you didn't know, there is a (Wiki)Portal:Foreign Scene page. And this portal is in desperate need of contributors. So if you're following tournaments in foreign BW scene and you notice something missing there, add it yourself! If that portal was kept up to date there is pretty much nothing we would need more to keep ourselves updated on the current stuff in foreign BW scene.

I noticed that almost all tournaments currently running have their own Liquipedia page, which is commendable, but when I go to (Wiki)Leagues (Foreign) page I don't see them listed, which is a shame since that would be a pretty cool place to see all the leagues currently running and their status.

I tried to add all the current active players to the foreign portal on liquipedia so that people would be able to see who's playing in this league game, but the ones judged to not be accomplished enough were removed and I'm still banned from posting anything on liquipedia due to articles on Semih and Favorite.

Edit: So this is not an option, given that most players who are currently playing aren't good enough to be recognized.

Maybe you should leave editing Liquipedia to others then and you focus on updating your OWN threads.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363742
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=363912
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361696

I won't even mention Gambit Cup which is supposed to be the most prestigious BW team league and yet I need to spend an hour to find the results and VODs, which is a 2 hour long video file. You named your thread [R&S] Gambit's Cup Round 1, but do you know what [R&S] even stands for? It's Results and Standings, which is just misleading to label your thread like that.

I don't know what got you banned from editing Liquipedia, but I know that Liquipedia admins don't hand out their bans lightly. So please don't spread false propaganda as editing Liquipedia is still very much an option, but there are rules which you must follow or otherwise it would end up a cesspool of misinformation.

One of those events still requires a cast for the Ro8 onward and as far as everything else, you enjoy every chance you get at flaming me, so I'll be blunt so that I have nothing more to say after this. Gecko also pointed this out and I hate to agree with him, but I do... You're telling other people to do stuff that you don't seem to be willing to jump out and do yourself... You expect me to find sponsorships, host events, write about said events, create LR, upkeep R&S and update liquipedia while also planning future events and living my life... Quite simply, you can't demand that someone do all of this while you sit on your ass and do none of it. It's too much work for one person, full time job really... But I already have a full time job.

For future posters, rather than suggesting what could be done, go out and do it.

Thanks.
Being mannered is almost as important as winning. Almost...
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 08 2012 01:44 GMT
#83
I never meant 2pac. Never ever. Nah, ah. Don't put words in my mouth.
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Eywa-
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada4876 Posts
September 08 2012 01:49 GMT
#84
On September 08 2012 10:44 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
I never meant 2pac. Never ever. Nah, ah. Don't put words in my mouth.

On September 08 2012 00:27 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 23:28 2Pacalypse- wrote:
[...]
Regardless of that, I think the biggest underused source we have is Liquipedia. And the main point of Liquipedia is that EVERYONE can contribute.
[...]


Sorry for quoting you again, but that's like one issue most of the OPs miss in their threads. I don't want to piss of anyone, but it seems to me that it is more common to start a thread like this every other month or every other week, depending on which event recently died, starting to order people around without actually doing anything. There are only very few persons to actually try to edit LP, regardless of how easy it is to start writing. After that the biggest part of the first-time editors go back and think that's it. Right now there are like ten persons at best that edited foreign Brood War articles - endy for example. You feel so alone, no support or anything coming from the community. It's just wasted time and energy, especially when you see that the newest tournaments mostly ignore LP and just rely on the rest of "us" (whoever that is that still cares enough) to fill what they didn't care to do. How can you ask someone to help if you don't give enough shit to provide the essential information that's needed for free? It seems that the more people stand around, the more people expect everyone else to do the work, so you have more time to complain.

With that in mind I just can applaud to people that keep stuff like DRTL, Defiler, ABC and ThSL running. People should start to realize that "the past" events were so great because everyone contributed. Not only the orgas, pages like TL/GG/bw.de, but also the user base. I miss that and I honestly don't see the spirit here anymore. Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.
Being mannered is almost as important as winning. Almost...
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 08 2012 03:50 GMT
#85
Too much drama, not enough bw.
HawaiianPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada5155 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-08 04:20:00
September 08 2012 04:15 GMT
#86
On September 07 2012 19:37 GeLaar wrote:
I'm past being bitter about this, but it is a matter of TL abandoning us. This has gone on since well before professional BW was nearing its end (since before even the last MSL finals, in fact), and has nothing to do with the shakiness of the amateur scene. And the condescending and sometimes downright rude attitude some of the staff members have had towards BW fans who complained, has done a lot to erode the good feelings I had about this site.


I find this personally offensive as a TL staff member who has dedicated hundreds hours between 2 jobs and law school to Brood War coverage.

We abanonded BW? Since before the last MSL?

How far would you like to go back with respect to TL coverage of Brood War?

Summer Last year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251088
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258815

Winter Last year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288882
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291869
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294043

Early this year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308741

Spring this year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326242
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329538
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328812

This summer?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344082
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351629

Last month?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=357368
(yes, we're still working on a finals recap... the goal was to make a large OSL tribute (like MBC game), and we bit off more than we could chew...
For reference... the MBC game tribute took us nearly 3 months to write and compile. Volunteer work is difficult.)


Those are just a few random articles I found when searching. We've covered the OSL MSL and SPL weekly for as far back as last spring.

The simple truth is that there is nothing in the foreign scene worthy of front page coverage. I've been working with 2pac and others (i.e. Pholon, SirJolt, Kiante, Kiett, l10f, riptide, and so many more that I feel bad only naming just those) to organize Brood War coverage on TL now that we have no pro scene. It's a mess, and we're doing our best to sort through things. The ThSL, for example, may as well be a TL sponsored tournament... it's mostly run by staff + the lovely Torenhire. In fact, I'm about to go spend 3 or 4 hours splitting VODs for it so that it can get a measly 20-100 views.

We've started ABC as a preliminary attempt at rounding up amateur news. I ask you, what are you really asking of TL? This thread is full of a lot of blaming and pointing of fingers, and it's frustrating as someone who puts a lot of effort into making our news coverage professional and robust to have the finger pointed in this direction.

I apologize for being this confrontational. This hit a nerve.

The reality is, we're only human.

The difference between "TL staff" and you is that our contributions have given us fancy forum icons and names. That's it. If you want to help... if you want to make TL coverage better... find ways to contribute. 2pac has asked for contributors for ABC in the past two volumes, and the response has been... sad.

Do you want to see a better BW scene? I know I do. Do something about it.
AdministratorNot actually Hawaiian.
L3gendary
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1470 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-08 04:41:24
September 08 2012 04:40 GMT
#87
On September 08 2012 13:15 HawaiianPig wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 07 2012 19:37 GeLaar wrote:
I'm past being bitter about this, but it is a matter of TL abandoning us. This has gone on since well before professional BW was nearing its end (since before even the last MSL finals, in fact), and has nothing to do with the shakiness of the amateur scene. And the condescending and sometimes downright rude attitude some of the staff members have had towards BW fans who complained, has done a lot to erode the good feelings I had about this site.


I find this personally offensive as a TL staff member who has dedicated hundreds hours between 2 jobs and law school to Brood War coverage.

We abanonded BW? Since before the last MSL?

How far would you like to go back with respect to TL coverage of Brood War?

Summer Last year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251088
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258815

Winter Last year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288882
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291869
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294043

Early this year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308741

Spring this year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326242
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329538
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328812

This summer?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344082
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351629

Last month?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=357368
(yes, we're still working on a finals recap... the goal was to make a large OSL tribute (like MBC game), and we bit off more than we could chew...
For reference... the MBC game tribute took us nearly 3 months to write and compile. Volunteer work is difficult.)


Those are just a few random articles I found when searching. We've covered the OSL MSL and SPL weekly for as far back as last spring.

The simple truth is that there is nothing in the foreign scene worthy of front page coverage. I've been working with 2pac and others (i.e. Pholon, SirJolt, Kiante, Kiett, l10f, riptide, and so many more that I feel bad only naming just those) to organize Brood War coverage on TL now that we have no pro scene. It's a mess, and we're doing our best to sort through things. The ThSL, for example, may as well be a TL sponsored tournament... it's mostly run by staff + the lovely Torenhire. In fact, I'm about to go spend 3 or 4 hours splitting VODs for it so that it can get a measly 20-100 views.

We've started ABC as a preliminary attempt at rounding up amateur news. I ask you, what are you really asking of TL? This thread is full of a lot of blaming and pointing of fingers, and it's frustrating as someone who puts a lot of effort into making our news coverage professional and robust to have the finger pointed in this direction.

I apologize for being this confrontational. This hit a nerve.

The reality is, we're only human.

The difference between "TL staff" and you is that our contributions have given us fancy forum icons and names. That's it. If you want to help... if you want to make TL coverage better... find ways to contribute. 2pac has asked for contributors for ABC in the past two volumes, and the response has been... sad.

Do you want to see a better BW scene? I know I do. Do something about it.


What gets me most is that there's no mention of bw whatsoever in the title. And they did this last year too but quickly changed it back.

"Team Liquid - StarCraft 2 and Dota 2 Pro Gaming News: Team Liquid is a community site focused on StarCraft 2 and Dota 2, with an emphasis on pro-gaming. Featuring StarCraft 2 and Dota 2 news and events, forums,"

While individuals like 2pac and others are contributing it seems that whatever head staff at TL wants BW swept under the rug.
Watching Jaedong play purifies my eyes. -Coach Ju Hoon
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
September 08 2012 05:06 GMT
#88
what would you prefer them to say? "Team Liquid - StarCraft 2 and Dota 2 Pro Gaming News... and and we also have some dudes who like to play BW"? We just aren't as important as they are, and we don't have "pro gaming news". At this point I'm just happy they still let us on the calender.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
dRaW
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada5744 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-08 05:56:11
September 08 2012 05:41 GMT
#89
On September 07 2012 16:03 Sayle wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 14:33 Stratos wrote:
Any word on: private BW events?
Always show streams?
The rest of the suggestions that actually make the core of the portal - BW spotlight, BW news, BW results? Note that these would all link to threads/blogs/posts or a liquipedia page, it's just highlighting them in an organized fashion.


From what I've seen, most BW showmatches like Defi's ones or the Chinese player one recently have all been calendered despite technically not making the minimum requirements. What other 'private BW events' are there to feature?

"Always show streams" is a pretty trivial complaint. Admittedly, it's probably also a fairly trivial change to add that feature to the customization options, but this just seems like nitpicking.

For your "BW spotlight, BW news, BW results" sections, what actually goes there? There are at best 2-3 good new threads per week in all the BW forums combined, and that's probably going to drop off now that OSL/SPL threads are going away. The only two high level amateur events that we have any coverage of are Gambit's Cup and the Chinese OSL and the coverage of those is shoddy. As people have said, it's almost impossible to follow GC even if you try. I always look for the latest results for that since I can't watch the streams, but I can never find them until draW randomly makes a blog post weeks later. On the other hand, people keep talking up the C-OSL and how the Chinese scene is going to save BW and yet the Ro8 thread, Ro4 thread and finals thread got less than four pages of comments combined. As far as I know, live streaming of the event was also inconsistent (actually this goes for GC too), and the VODs as you can see in those threads are super low quality.

People are also talking about covering the amateur Korean scene that has notable players like Hiya, Pusan and Anytime, but who is going to do that? A few threads popped up a while ago for the hOdduk Starleague and the team league that FAT (foreigner allstar team) participated in also got some coverage, but I haven't really heard anything from that scene since then. The only glimpse I'm getting from them recently is random Afreeca restreams on kjwcj's stream.

This isn't a matter of "omg TL hates BW now, what a bunch of sellouts", it's more like the volunteers on TL staff mostly only cared about professional BW (with a few notable exceptions) so they're not willing to invest their time in a shaky amateur scene that can't even take care of itself at the moment.


I just got bored cause no1 keeps things updated but even my blog is a fail as it gets tossed into the back pages I think I should just convert it to a BW Thread.

edit: I post stuff almost daily on TL.net and I browse a lot since I am sleeping around 3-4 hours a day but I have no knowledge of gosu video/photo editing techniques, not even sure if my PC can run that kind of software, else I would be doing lots more . Btw, I entered minors in comp sci so maybe I will learn something for future if we are still around by then, lol.

PS: About the vod clean up, that would be amazing but most of our tech guys are mad amateur so I don't think that will change soon. . (i.e crap overlay or 4hour video for a whole clan war with no write-up, also notice how there is never any history on most players? Thats cause it was basically impossible to find until hacklebeast started rounding shit up and then he left xD wonder if anyone has his overlay files they could be very useful)
I don't need luck, luck is for noobs, good luck to you though
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
September 08 2012 06:10 GMT
#90
you mean the overlays for isl? I can give you those if you want them.

And since this thread doesn't exactly have a consistent topic: I wanted to ask if anyone prefers the vods split by individual games rather than in groups (ie series, team match, group, ect). I have heard some people say that, but I prefer the longer vods myself, and I haven't heard a really good argument otherwise. But if someone had a really compelling argument, I could start doing them that way.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 08 2012 07:55 GMT
#91
On September 08 2012 13:15 HawaiianPig wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 07 2012 19:37 GeLaar wrote:
I'm past being bitter about this, but it is a matter of TL abandoning us. This has gone on since well before professional BW was nearing its end (since before even the last MSL finals, in fact), and has nothing to do with the shakiness of the amateur scene. And the condescending and sometimes downright rude attitude some of the staff members have had towards BW fans who complained, has done a lot to erode the good feelings I had about this site.


I find this personally offensive as a TL staff member who has dedicated hundreds hours between 2 jobs and law school to Brood War coverage.

We abanonded BW? Since before the last MSL?

How far would you like to go back with respect to TL coverage of Brood War?

Summer Last year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=251088
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258815

Winter Last year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=288882
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291869
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294043

Early this year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=308741

Spring this year?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=326242
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329538
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328812

This summer?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=344082
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351629

Last month?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=357368
(yes, we're still working on a finals recap... the goal was to make a large OSL tribute (like MBC game), and we bit off more than we could chew...
For reference... the MBC game tribute took us nearly 3 months to write and compile. Volunteer work is difficult.)


Those are just a few random articles I found when searching. We've covered the OSL MSL and SPL weekly for as far back as last spring.

The simple truth is that there is nothing in the foreign scene worthy of front page coverage. I've been working with 2pac and others (i.e. Pholon, SirJolt, Kiante, Kiett, l10f, riptide, and so many more that I feel bad only naming just those) to organize Brood War coverage on TL now that we have no pro scene. It's a mess, and we're doing our best to sort through things. The ThSL, for example, may as well be a TL sponsored tournament... it's mostly run by staff + the lovely Torenhire. In fact, I'm about to go spend 3 or 4 hours splitting VODs for it so that it can get a measly 20-100 views.

We've started ABC as a preliminary attempt at rounding up amateur news. I ask you, what are you really asking of TL? This thread is full of a lot of blaming and pointing of fingers, and it's frustrating as someone who puts a lot of effort into making our news coverage professional and robust to have the finger pointed in this direction.

I apologize for being this confrontational. This hit a nerve.

The reality is, we're only human.

The difference between "TL staff" and you is that our contributions have given us fancy forum icons and names. That's it. If you want to help... if you want to make TL coverage better... find ways to contribute. 2pac has asked for contributors for ABC in the past two volumes, and the response has been... sad.

Do you want to see a better BW scene? I know I do. Do something about it.



I do not want this to turn into a flame war. I did not claim that there Brood War has not been covered on TL.net recently, nor did I demand that "foreign" BW be given the same amount of attention as SC2.

I am really just a user, but I am very grateful to everyone who does anything for BW on this website, whether they are staff members or not. And I want to take this opportunity to thank you personally for the work you've put in for us.

The feeling of abandonment comes from the fact that BW is now essentially invisible on the default main page. I know that there are monetary concerns involved in what is shown there, but the fact is that nobody who doesn't already know about Brood War would get interested in it by looking at this website. And there is about 13 years' worth of accumulated content here. I know that Liquipedia is supposed to collect all of that information, but realistically, I don't think it makes for good introductory material. It would be nice to have something visible on the main page, which would lead a new viewer to Brood War content that could get them interested in the game. It doesn't have to be non-Korean amateur stuff, it can just be a link to a page with VODs of the most memorable moments from the individual star leagues. But right now, there is really nothing to attract people who don't already know Brood War to this game.
Brood War is alive and well.
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 08 2012 08:00 GMT
#92
On September 08 2012 15:10 hacklebeast wrote:
you mean the overlays for isl? I can give you those if you want them.

And since this thread doesn't exactly have a consistent topic: I wanted to ask if anyone prefers the vods split by individual games rather than in groups (ie series, team match, group, ect). I have heard some people say that, but I prefer the longer vods myself, and I haven't heard a really good argument otherwise. But if someone had a really compelling argument, I could start doing them that way.


I guess the topic of this thread has become "How to improve our BW experience".

My preference: I think for things like the team leagues, the long VOD format (one VOD for an entire team match) fits quite well. But for things like the semi-finals or finals of an individual league, I think splitting the match into individual games might be better, because it gives it more of an OSL feel.
Brood War is alive and well.
HawaiianPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada5155 Posts
September 08 2012 08:18 GMT
#93
It's not a money thing, it's just the reality of front page real-estate and pleasing as many of our users as possible.

The content you're suggesting we display on the front page is either static or rarely updated. The truth is that Starcraft 2 (and now Dota 2) have far more frequently updated (and more importantly, far more demanded) content.

If TL's goal is to please the majority of its users, that means making decisions such as setting the default for Liquipedia search to SC2 instead of BW. This serves the most people. We could leave it at that, but we do our best to ensure that everyone can be happy; we allow you to customize this. If you so choose, you can set your sidebars to show exclusively Brood War content and nothing else.

What more can you ask for? For the TL front page to be a shrine to the now dead BW pro scene? Or for it to cover the barely organized foreign scene?

Even as a die-hard BW fan, I have to say... these suggestions for the front page are, quite frankly, selfish.

Aside from the sidebars, the rest of the front page is dominated by the news. The news (as I pointed out in my fevered rant) has dried up. There's nothing left to cover at the level of notability our front page requires. SC2 and Dota news, however, is so abundant, that staff has a hard time keeping on top of even the most basic coverage.

Does this mean we want to hide all BW content? No, but the front page serves hundreds of thousands of people. As a community that has always prided itself on high quality service and maintaining the best news coverage, we simply don't have room for a whole lot of BW content on the front page.


So what can we do? As you might have noted in this thread, 2pac suggested that we'd be interested in your thoughts on a BW portal. This could be a place where BW fans can go for BW content, no matter how slow it moves.

Well, believe it or not... this idea has been kicking around among staff since at least spring this year. The trouble is, getting the wheels in motion to get it done is difficult. TL is not some well oiled corporate machine that people seem to think it is.

Staff interested in BW have been doing what they can. ABC was our first step in terms of centralizing content. Earlier this week I was discussing with 2pac how to make that better. Naturally, our second step is around the corner...

Abandonment is not the right way to frame this. TL has grown exponentially... and BW has shrank ...exponentially. This doesn't mean we've forgotten about it, or worse, let it go. There are still many of us dedicated to keeping the community here thriving. To be doing this while everyone says you've abandoned the game is... discouraging.
AdministratorNot actually Hawaiian.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 08 2012 08:47 GMT
#94
On September 08 2012 15:10 hacklebeast wrote:
you mean the overlays for isl? I can give you those if you want them.

And since this thread doesn't exactly have a consistent topic: I wanted to ask if anyone prefers the vods split by individual games rather than in groups (ie series, team match, group, ect). I have heard some people say that, but I prefer the longer vods myself, and I haven't heard a really good argument otherwise. But if someone had a really compelling argument, I could start doing them that way.

Let me try answering that.. For an outsider who doesn't follow the league, split VODs are a lot more appealing as he can directly choose a game/MU he wants to see and get the experience he wants. This guy won't probably care about the intermezzo talk and the last thing he wants to do is click around the VOD to find something/someone he's interested in. Also if you are presented with something you don't really care about and are offered a 2hr vid or a 15min vid, chances are you're likely to click the 15min one, just to give it a shot.
For an insider who follows the league but doesn't have enough time to see it all, again split format seems better + ideally with recommended games polls.

For an insider like me, an uncut VOD is better because I watch it from bed and nothing kills me more than standing up to go click each individual VOD D: Also it removes the possibility of any spoilers (like youtube length, related videos).

Ultimately, I think split VODs are the better choice, because the experienced viewer like me might also know how to find the VOD in the twitch archives, hence no need for uploading at all (unless there are some lag issues with viewing the vods that I don't know about). No reason not to provide a link to the uncut VOD in the youtube video description of the split vids or the thread though!
En Taro Violet
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
September 08 2012 08:50 GMT
#95
On September 08 2012 17:47 Stratos wrote:
For an insider like me, an uncut VOD is better because I watch it from bed and nothing kills me more than standing up to go click each individual VOD D: Also it removes the possibility of any spoilers (like youtube length, related videos).


Or the uploader could just upload anti-spoiler VODs and put all the VODs from one series into a playlist to solve both those problems, as I've been doing for SPL.
HawaiianPig
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Canada5155 Posts
September 08 2012 08:51 GMT
#96
On September 08 2012 17:47 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 15:10 hacklebeast wrote:
you mean the overlays for isl? I can give you those if you want them.

And since this thread doesn't exactly have a consistent topic: I wanted to ask if anyone prefers the vods split by individual games rather than in groups (ie series, team match, group, ect). I have heard some people say that, but I prefer the longer vods myself, and I haven't heard a really good argument otherwise. But if someone had a really compelling argument, I could start doing them that way.

Let me try answering that.. For an outsider who doesn't follow the league, split VODs are a lot more appealing as he can directly choose a game/MU he wants to see and get the experience he wants. This guy won't probably care about the intermezzo talk and the last thing he wants to do is click around the VOD to find something/someone he's interested in. Also if you are presented with something you don't really care about and are offered a 2hr vid or a 15min vid, chances are you're likely to click the 15min one, just to give it a shot.
For an insider who follows the league but doesn't have enough time to see it all, again split format seems better + ideally with recommended games polls.

For an insider like me, an uncut VOD is better because I watch it from bed and nothing kills me more than standing up to go click each individual VOD D: Also it removes the possibility of any spoilers (like youtube length, related videos).

Ultimately, I think split VODs are the better choice, because the experienced viewer like me might also know how to find the VOD in the twitch archives, hence no need for uploading at all (unless there are some lag issues with viewing the vods that I don't know about). No reason not to provide a link to the uncut VOD in the youtube video description of the split vids or the thread though!


This is something I've thought about and, when splitting VODs for ThSL, decided on a simple compromise: Playlists.

ThSL VODs are split, but each round and group are available as a playlist on the youtube channel. I haven't really advertised this as much, but I think it's a happy solution.
AdministratorNot actually Hawaiian.
GeLaar
Profile Joined January 2003
2421 Posts
September 08 2012 08:57 GMT
#97
@HawaiianPig: You are right, the link I was suggesting would be a static element. It would lead to a page that would be designed once and then never updated, but maybe improved occasionally. It would take up about the same space in the main horizantal menu as the "Starcraft 2" button. And I don't really expect it to happen, for a large number of reasons. But you are right, I would have liked some sort of "shrine", something about the history of Brood War (and incidentally, this website), that could also serve as an introduction for anyone interested.

What you said about customization is perfectly true, but not related to my point, namely that Brood War is invisible on TL.net to anyone but insiders. The thing about BW's dwindling popularity seems like a feedback loop to me. It's not popular enough so it gets less visibility, then it becomes even less popular, and so forth. This has been going on for a long time, and I have a strong feeling that it was deliberate (in the sense that it started being made less visible back when there was plenty of support for BW). I think that BW here was scaled back, but every time someone mentions this they are dismissed as rabid fans.

If my statement that TL.net has abandoned BW bothers you, I'll rephrase it as "TL.net's priorities have changed, and do not include Brood War". It is a statement about the website as a whole, and not individual staff members. And it is an obvious fact to anyone who watches the website without logging in.
Brood War is alive and well.
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 08 2012 09:08 GMT
#98
On September 08 2012 06:30 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 05:10 Game wrote:
On September 08 2012 00:27 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.

Are you implying that these don't make it better?


The way they're used now make it worse. A giant artificial hype around an agenda based event with no further information - that's today's standard. Most of these are updated for about the first 50%, then stuff gets completely ignored and the ordinary viewer/user has a hard time to follow. There are other events that use money for low level players - I honestly don't get why the people that still play (after 2++ years of a dead foreign scene) need 100$++ to get their asses up to play or do anything remotely productive.

I get that this makes stuff more interesting, but it shouldn't be the only motivation (which it seems to be) for the players / organizers. A huge prize pool doesn't mean it'll be a good tournament. A big banner and three pages of badly phrased rules don't guarantee overview. This is stuff you organize to support the event, not to artificially hype something that would not work otherwise.

Huh? I think you just insulted the work of a lot of people and even random low level players with no reason at all.
High prizepool doesn't guarantee a good tournament but so does nothing else, really. How does the prizepool harm it? If anything, if there's an apparent input of effort from a lot of people, it shows that people do care about the tournament and want to make it good.

How you manage to deduce that the players in the tourney are lazy money-seeking worms from a prizepool is completely beyond me. Just because you're an active contributor (and a great one if I may say so) doesn't mean you can go about insulting random people and their work like that.
En Taro Violet
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6760 Posts
September 08 2012 09:27 GMT
#99
We have a war for the biggest contributor :niceface:
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 08 2012 11:17 GMT
#100
We've touched on a pretty big issue. It can't really be solved unless we get:

1 More viewers.
2 More sponsors
3 More money
4 More tournaments
5 More players

and more stuff in general. It is a vicious cycle. And like it has been said, it is quite unlikely we will ever see the level of activity in Brood War that we saw prior to SC2 again.

But. What we can do is appreciate the scene we have now. The guys who play in GC are insanely talented. Sziky played against koreans for goodness sake. These guys are good. We can still appreciate the high level of brood war that gets played. But we won't have proleague, or osl or msl.

It is a bitter pill to swallow but I can't help but feel like some of you guys are living with some false hope it'll all come back.

Watch Gambits Cup (it's amazing). Watch ThSL. Watch ASL. Watch the incredible streams we have (dewalt currently pounding some Chinese players. Go play it yourself. But whatever you do, don't complain.
Abjurer
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Sweden209 Posts
September 08 2012 11:37 GMT
#101
On September 08 2012 20:17 BookTwo wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

We've touched on a pretty big issue. It can't really be solved unless we get:

1 More viewers.
2 More sponsors
3 More money
4 More tournaments
5 More players

and more stuff in general. It is a vicious cycle. And like it has been said, it is quite unlikely we will ever see the level of activity in Brood War that we saw prior to SC2 again.

But. What we can do is appreciate the scene we have now. The guys who play in GC are insanely talented. Sziky played against koreans for goodness sake. These guys are good. We can still appreciate the high level of brood war that gets played. But we won't have proleague, or osl or msl.

It is a bitter pill to swallow but I can't help but feel like some of you guys are living with some false hope it'll all come back.

Watch Gambits Cup (it's amazing). Watch ThSL. Watch ASL. Watch the incredible streams we have (dewalt currently pounding some Chinese players. Go play it yourself. But whatever you do, don't complain.


Yep! This is the right attitude, I do have some optimism for a lot more involvement with the chinese and korean scenes, the language barrier is a problem though.

BookTwo's new Vod site is a great step towards a centralised place for bw vods, a minus is that not everyone can contribute though. We could create a thread similar to the Small Vod Thread which would be strictly moderated to keep clear from spam. And everytime it gets bumped you get reminded to check out some new matches you might have missed.

Some volunteers could perhaps be rounded up to help with the documentation of leagues, like updating R&S threads, uploading vods etc. I imagine it gets stressful to manage a league all by yourself. I don't have a stable internet at the moment and a shitload of school stuff going on but in two weeks I'm game if anyone needs help with something.
bw<3 cj<3
GeckoVOD
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
Germany814 Posts
September 08 2012 12:53 GMT
#102
On September 08 2012 18:08 Stratos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 06:30 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
On September 08 2012 05:10 Game wrote:
On September 08 2012 00:27 Gecko[Xp] wrote:
Nowadays we need money, tons of text, an image here and there and hope it'll make it better.

Are you implying that these don't make it better?


The way they're used now make it worse. A giant artificial hype around an agenda based event with no further information - that's today's standard. Most of these are updated for about the first 50%, then stuff gets completely ignored and the ordinary viewer/user has a hard time to follow. There are other events that use money for low level players - I honestly don't get why the people that still play (after 2++ years of a dead foreign scene) need 100$++ to get their asses up to play or do anything remotely productive.

I get that this makes stuff more interesting, but it shouldn't be the only motivation (which it seems to be) for the players / organizers. A huge prize pool doesn't mean it'll be a good tournament. A big banner and three pages of badly phrased rules don't guarantee overview. This is stuff you organize to support the event, not to artificially hype something that would not work otherwise.

Huh? I think you just insulted the work of a lot of people and even random low level players with no reason at all.
High prizepool doesn't guarantee a good tournament but so does nothing else, really. How does the prizepool harm it? If anything, if there's an apparent input of effort from a lot of people, it shows that people do care about the tournament and want to make it good.

How you manage to deduce that the players in the tourney are lazy money-seeking worms from a prizepool is completely beyond me. Just because you're an active contributor (and a great one if I may say so) doesn't mean you can go about insulting random people and their work like that.


Then please explain to me why the C ranked players need 200$++ to get a tournament going? I mean they can join clans, participate in things like defiler or even random ladder tournaments, yet "this scene needs money". Consequently a lot of bullshit about smurfs appears, can't explain that. Note: I like DRTL / DRIT, but there defenitely are a lot of bad organized tours for players that shouldn't need the money.

I don't say "don't add money", I say "don't forget the game should be fun". You can't replace what made Brood War's community great with money. Look at ThSL and Trozz' tour - they had little to no prizes, but there's a lot more to it. If you don't see the difference I can't help you :/
@DonGeckone on Twitterstuff // JOIN THE YODA FANCLUB OR YOU'RE REALLY REALLY UNCOOL: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=398220
Stratos
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Czech Republic6104 Posts
September 08 2012 13:07 GMT
#103
I won't explain to you anything because I didn't claim anything like that. You need to explain to me how: Players playing in a tournament with high prizepool = lazy people who need the money "to get their asses up to play or do anything remotely productive."

How are remarks like this in any way helpful or productive? No, I don't think you can help me understand this. It's petty squabbles like this that make the community look bad. We need to be working together and if there's something that you think needs improving, shouting it out like this and insulting random people in the process is not the way to do it.
En Taro Violet
aquados
Profile Joined August 2012
Netherlands180 Posts
September 08 2012 13:22 GMT
#104
viewers go where the good games are, most of the time it are the high level player that make the good games, with that a reputation gets made and people want to put money into it becouse they love it. becouse of the money the players can sustain, this is how bw got made and grew ALOT.

but it had nice player base and lots of people who did put incredable effort or sacrifice for. and we are at this stage, we NEED to have effort put into it. it can be a giant money prizepool, it can be a well run tournement, it can be media coverage, what ever. the format doesn't matter all that much if you don't have a solid base to begin with.

i don't care who you are, but everyone can make a tournement now. there are tons of free software where the tournement gets made, people join, and it will make a bracket automaticly, the only thing you need to have are some ref's this can be done with 1 person for a 16/32 player tournement. the first thing i would put money in is a good stream, and good casters. i will make a example for you guys how to do this (i will make a detailed guide on how to start a tournement)

first go to http://binarybeast.com/ its a site that make generate the bracket for you automaticly,
i give the info on what game i want the tournemt to be hosted in and what time it is going to start, and maby some extra details if i want to
the players are going to sign up, check in and have some fun time playing in their tournement. the winner will upload the replay and can move forward, playing against hes next opponent ect.

so the players are orginezed by the site and there is a ref checking if everything is going correctly. meanwhile there is a caster who live cast or does it from replays that the people can have some bw to watch and thats all:D

the money is a nice way to atract people, but there are PLENTY of player who yust want to play in a tournement for fun or gaining new experiance for a later one. (lets say as a preperation for a C player who has in ASL, he has some more experiance with pressure)

this is a nice and after all EASY way to host tournements. this can be done with and WITHOUT money.
the power of an outside source is that it comes from the inside. sabas[aov] c-/c toss
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
September 08 2012 18:47 GMT
#105
On September 08 2012 20:17 BookTwo wrote:
We've touched on a pretty big issue. It can't really be solved unless we get:

1 More viewers.
2 More sponsors
3 More money
4 More tournaments
5 More players



I'm pretty sure number 5 is the most important one.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
BookTwo
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
1985 Posts
September 09 2012 00:05 GMT
#106
On September 09 2012 03:47 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 08 2012 20:17 BookTwo wrote:
We've touched on a pretty big issue. It can't really be solved unless we get:

1 More viewers.
2 More sponsors
3 More money
4 More tournaments
5 More players



I'm pretty sure number 5 is the most important one.


Please don't quote only half of my post.
Pucca
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Taiwan1280 Posts
September 09 2012 02:34 GMT
#107
To talk about the splitting of VODs: It can be done easily from the streamer. You require xSplit and a paid subscription of it (35$ USD 3-Month) and stream and then do local recording when the game runs and ends. No watching the 4 hour stream and splicing them up. All the VODs are on your computer click-and-drag onto YouTube and your ready to go.

Also, to respond to a user who stated our graphical and technical people are amateur. I'd say that is not the case. HawaiianPig is amazing at the overlays and organization of VODs. He has been doing a long route of splicing the VODs which is true but that is either because he didn't know of said method or he did know if it and knows since he is not streaming he cannot do the local recording method said above.

Hope this helps clear any issues of VODs splicing. It is very simple ~ on the streams end.
Master Chief
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
September 09 2012 03:28 GMT
#108
I know about that option, but I'm not smart enough to reliably turn the vod back on 12 times a cast, and having one of the vods gone it the worst of all options. Much better (for me) to cut the vods after.

That's assuming that small vods is the best option. I have heard an equal number of people for each side.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
Sayle
Profile Joined October 2010
United Kingdom3685 Posts
September 09 2012 03:30 GMT
#109
On September 09 2012 12:28 hacklebeast wrote:
I know about that option, but I'm not smart enough to reliably turn the vod back on 12 times a cast, and having one of the vods gone it the worst of all options. Much better (for me) to cut the vods after.


Same for me. Given the number of times I forgot to even change the player names in my overlay, I'd probably end up with half the VODs missing.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
September 09 2012 03:33 GMT
#110
On September 09 2012 12:28 hacklebeast wrote:
I know about that option, but I'm not smart enough to reliably turn the vod back on 12 times a cast, and having one of the vods gone it the worst of all options. Much better (for me) to cut the vods after.

That's assuming that small vods is the best option. I have heard an equal number of people for each side.

He's saying you can set it to trigger a local recording when the game starts, and end the local recording when the game ends. I just use Twitch TV's highlights feature to split the videos and download/upload the VODs manually, as I don't use Xsplit.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
hacklebeast
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States5090 Posts
September 09 2012 03:57 GMT
#111
yes, but if I forget to trigger it as the game starts, then I won't have a local recording for that game.
Protoss: Best, Paralyze, Jangbi, Nal_Ra || Terran: Oov, Boxer, Fantasy, Hiya|| Zerg: Yellow, Zero
Pucca
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
Taiwan1280 Posts
September 09 2012 04:13 GMT
#112
I'm wondering the idea for small VODs and the playlist idea, would it be possible for people to upload a set say bo3 but the series is actually a 2-0 now instead of having the replay only have two games upload another game that would say game 3 but its just a video that says "This set has not been played"? (GSL)
Master Chief
pebble444
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Italy2498 Posts
September 09 2012 04:59 GMT
#113
On September 09 2012 13:13 Pucca wrote:
I'm wondering the idea for small VODs and the playlist idea, would it be possible for people to upload a set say bo3 but the series is actually a 2-0 now instead of having the replay only have two games upload another game that would say game 3 but its just a video that says "This set has not been played"? (GSL)


Yes this has been done. However i feel that it is best to have the vods divided in series or bests of, when they are individual its really easy to get spoiled, not only on the final score (and here anti-spoiler vods work great and are a must), but also, if you are watching a hydra bust being attempted and the vod ends a minute after, its not hard to predict how it ends.
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