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On August 01 2012 15:55 Mataza wrote:Actually, if Savior is being called a Bonjwa, then Jaedong and Flash might both be Bonjwas. Look at the length of Saviors dominance. It wasn´t very long, or clear. (Neither was iloveoov) ![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tl2E7NIjDME/UBZJ3kRhArI/AAAAAAAAERk/Tft11d56-G8/s640/plot7.png) It seems to me the title of Bonjwa was given to people who discovered a playstyle and dominated with it. That´s why Flash isn´t a Bonjwa, he is the ultimate weapon.
Wow interesting, you are right, from that graph it's only 1 year for both about, which is the same as jaedong. Though it seems that people considered iloveoov/savior to dominate for a bit longer than a year? I think if jaedong kept it up for half a year there would be little doubt he would be considered a bonjwa.
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On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:God > Bonjwa  Statistics are fun, but there's the subjective value of the games. Which is why Power Rank always held such a deep spot in my heart. Flash: Back-to-back-to-back dual finals in 2010, winning 4 of the 6. Such dominance was never achieved before, nor after. He also dominated SPL in 2010. And even as recently as late 2011 and early 2012, Flash was virtually unstoppable in SPL. It's the general talk of things that truly define a bonjwa. I remember that even after he made his third and fourth consecutive finals (losing to Effort, and defeating Jaedong) Koreans still denied him Bonjwa status. Several months later, Flash defeats Jaedong twice and they proclaim him God. How could they not? Flash and Jaedong were both far better than anyone else in the scene during this time. And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all. At this time, Bisu was considered slumping and not a top toss, and even Stork was only the #3 Protoss behind Kal and Free. None of these Protoss did anything notable in 2010. Effort couldn't follow up his success with another individual league run ever again. Flash and Jaedong were the only real men, and even Jaedong looked like crap when he got 3-0'd by a 14ccing Flash. TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary.
Really true. Flash has always been my favourite player since I knew about the scene in early 2009. Even though Flash had been rolling through everyone in almost every single match he played (this is where he was having a 90% win-rate lol) there was still a palpable hesitation in naming him a bonjwa. Bonjwa is not a light term and the community knows it - it is the highest honour that the fans can bestow on a player.
In 2009, Jaedong was dominating the opposition and there was a lot of discussion at the time as to whether Jaedong was a bonjwa. The domination, however, was qualitatively less comprehensive and consistent than Flash in 2010 and the conditions were never 'right' to call Jaedong a bonjwa.
This explains the great hesitation in labelling Flash a bonjwa in early to mid 2010, but yes as ore0z linked, by the end of the Korean Air Starleague 2, in September 2010, Flash had made his THIRD-IN-A-ROW. DOUBLE. MSL/OSL finals plus cleaning up everyone in proleague plus comprehensively beating the 6 dragons in T's hard matchup (Z>P, P>T, T>Z) over an extended period of time. Though some would argue as to whether it was the greatest 'ever', no-one disputed that it was the greatest since Savior's decline in 2007, a full three years prior.
The right conditions had been created.
As some people have stated, he might have been called 'God' by the Koreans - or bonjwa. If we disregard which of 'God' or 'bonjwa' he was called, at that point he had garnered more accomplishments than any other bonjwa that had come before him, and that was the important thing.
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On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary.
It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player.
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On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player.
It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb.
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On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb.
Should have went Guardians.
Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal.
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Saviour is the only bonjwa. The others we can call legends or something.
Bloody awesome article by the way!
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Does anyone know what's the reason players decline forever after their peak ?
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On August 02 2012 02:17 Apolo wrote:
Does anyone know what's the reason players decline forever after their peak ?
Primary reason: Other players catching up and younger and more talented guys outplaying you
Secondary: Military
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I would like to tell you as an English major that you have better English than most Americans. It was really impressive and until you said your native language was Korean, I didn't even notice! Thanks for the post, it was really informative!
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Its fitting that the mathematician who writes this thread is named djikstra, famous for his algorithm titled djikstra's algorithm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra's_algorithm. I myself prefer A star to his algorithm, but nonetheless he is an important fellow.
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United States10328 Posts
On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal.
Jaedong has a really hard time winning with guardians...
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What the hell! Every time I see the list of bonjwas I have only one question: Where is Jaedong!
Look at this graphics. I don't know the definitions, but as far as I understand bonjwa is who dominated through the era.
I remember when Jaedong was first who has more than 3000 points in the Kespa rank and made an absolute record 3460, while others had maximum 1700 I guess. He was number one zerg for more than 3 years. For those years there were so many great players, but he wins almost everything. He has so many records. So many times he was in the finals, semifinals I guess nobody has such records.
I think we should give Jaedong other status than bonjwa and higher ). Maybe something like Legend, The Greatest, Legendary Tyrant =)
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Forget bonjwa, Flash was called God right? Why isn't that not enough?
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On August 02 2012 03:33 JieXian wrote:
Forget bonjwa, Flash was called God right? Why isn't that not enough?
Actually, I am talking about Jaedong.
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if flash = god, doesn't that leave the bonjwa door open to jaedong? since people argued there can't be two bonjwas at the same time, they couldn't title jaedong or flash but since flash is god, jaedong is bonjwa. no?
boxer, nada, oov, savior, jaedong
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On August 02 2012 04:26 jinorazi wrote:
if flash = god, doesn't that leave the bonjwa door open to jaedong? since people argued there can't be two bonjwas at the same time, they couldn't title jaedong or flash but since flash is god, jaedong is bonjwa. no?
boxer, nada, oov, savior, jaedong
The 5 prophets and their God?
edit: hmm seems to diminish the others too much, disregard.
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i remember reading a long time ago back around the time bisu had just won his 3rd msl in 2008, that the term bonjwa was originated when koreans began to notice a strange pattern among the most dominant players in the game. the pattern shared only by nada, savior, and iloveoov was that they were able to win 3 msl's within a short period of time, and then win an OSL title immediately following the 3rd msl win. thus the term bonjwa was created for those exclusive players. back when bisu won his 3rd msl, everyone was talking about how he might become a bonjwa but then he choked on the following osl so he was never able to make it. for the same reasons thats probably why most koreans were hesitant to term flash and jaedong as bonjwas. not sure why people termed boxer as a bonjwa when he didnt fulfill those terms but i guess it may have been honorary title for the father of starcraft
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On August 02 2012 05:01 lFrost wrote:
i remember reading a long time ago back around the time bisu had just won his 3rd msl in 2008, that the term bonjwa was originated when koreans began to notice a strange pattern among the most dominant players in the game. the pattern shared only by nada, savior, and iloveoov was that they were able to win 3 msl's within a short period of time, and then win an OSL title immediately following the 3rd msl win. thus the term bonjwa was created for those exclusive players. back when bisu won his 3rd msl, everyone was talking about how he might become a bonjwa but then he choked on the following osl so he was never able to make it. for the same reasons thats probably why most koreans were hesitant to term flash and jaedong as bonjwas. not sure why people termed boxer as a bonjwa when he didnt fulfill those terms but i guess it may have been honorary title for the father of starcraft
Thanks for sharing, didn't know about that! Makes things more interesting and now I have a better understanding
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On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal.
Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash.
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Great post.
I'm a massive JD fan, but even I'd concede Flash was the last of the Bonjwas. Both players had the best rivalry in BW since Nada and Savior but Flash came out the better player in the end.
No one will ever beat Savior though.
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EPT
