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On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash.
Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
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On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/8/84/Bonjwa2.png) This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD. For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong. GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
ive been looking for a glicko2 rating of starcraft players for a long time. Do you know where I can find more readable data of glicko starcraft ratings(both bw and sc2)?
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On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
They're too weak vs irradiate. That's your biggest problem with guards. An Ultralisk only costs 50 more gas and is far more cost effective in comparison.
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man this is sweet, i knew reading the title this would be a badass write-up!!
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On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
Gas is better invested into ultras imo, guardians just implode too easily from irradiate.
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On August 02 2012 10:57 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. Gas is better invested into ultras imo, guardians just implode too easily from irradiate.
Build ONE at a time which is insignificance.
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They still die to one irradiate which is the problem. And given the high gas cost you're better off investing in ultra/defs. Guards are just too brittle for the late game when vessel counts are very high.
They can have decent situational use to defend expos in the mid to late game transition (as I think you alluded too previously) but beyond that you're not going to get a good return on your investment. But even then, I think defilers/lurkers do just a good a job for cheaper cost.
Guardians were good back in the day when quick 2 fact many tank builds were popular but their effectiveness has diminshed over time with metagame shifts.
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On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage
I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well)
Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race..
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On August 02 2012 12:17 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well) Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race..
Dude, Guardians are like the a non useless version of Queens pre-broodling stage. And Queens have been utilized fairly a lot in fighting Mech. What is good about Guardians is that they have these incredible long range attacks that you can just bounce back and fourth between the bases by having like 4 of them. With it, you can probably not worry about any sort of drops that would ravage your econ that the usual Scourges would sometime miss and your multitask will fall behind if you are simply attempting to do some type of Defiler/Ling defense.
Plus it can used a lot to snipe HTs in Zerg vs Protoss by having them around a cliff when the P is marching toward your base.
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On August 01 2012 15:55 Mataza wrote:Actually, if Savior is being called a Bonjwa, then Jaedong and Flash might both be Bonjwas. Look at the length of Saviors dominance. It wasn´t very long, or clear. (Neither was iloveoov) ![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tl2E7NIjDME/UBZJ3kRhArI/AAAAAAAAERk/Tft11d56-G8/s640/plot7.png) It seems to me the title of Bonjwa was given to people who discovered a playstyle and dominated with it. That´s why Flash isn´t a Bonjwa, he is the ultimate weapon.
I think what you said is probably a great way of calling it. The Bonjwa's are all innovative to the point that they brought something unique and dominated with it because no one else did it or couldn't do it (at the time).
Perhaps...
Boxer -> Micromanagement of units
Iloveoov -> Macro/Builds
NaDa -> Mechanics/APM
Savior -> Deception/Feints (+ maybe he also added Unit Compositions by his ZvP Tech to Counter Tech innovation?)
Bisu -> Build Order/Unit Composition Wins? By de-throning Savior, did he simply move the metagame or do something special?
Flash -> Ultimate Weapon? (ie. Could do everything, and counter everything) Terran Turtle/Turret Ring + Double Armory etc?
Jaedong -> Another ultimate weapon? Muta-micro + Filling in the ZvP weakness of savior by adding the 6 hatch and 5 hatch hydra builds etc?
The rest, simply more ultimate weapons or close to ultimate weapons?
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On August 02 2012 12:28 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 12:17 GhostOwl wrote:On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well) Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race.. Dude, Guardians are like the a non useless version of Queens pre-broodling stage. And Queens have been utilized fairly a lot in fighting Mech. What is good about Guardians is that they have these incredible long range attacks that you can just bounce back and fourth between the bases by having like 4 of them. With it, you can probably not worry about any sort of drops that would ravage your econ that the usual Scourges would sometime miss and your multitask will fall behind if you are simply attempting to do some type of Defiler/Ling defense. Plus it can used a lot to snipe HTs in Zerg vs Protoss by having them around a cliff when the P is marching toward your base.
Errm, Queen pre-broodling stage comes BEFORE Guardian tech. Queens are better than Guardians at fighting mech because they're fast enough to escape wraiths / goliaths, they're spellcasters, meaning 1 spell = 1 tank death. You try killing a tank with 1 guardian and see if you can kill it before the guardian gets killed.
Besides, Broodling range is just as much as Wraiths if not more, and Queens cost way less gas.
You can put your guardians bounce back and forth, but by the time Terran realizes this, he'll build wraiths supported by MnM to protect it from scourges.
I would rather have Mutas to snipe out HTs than spend extra gas to get a slower unit to snipe the HTs.
Your logic is killing me bro.
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On August 02 2012 12:55 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 12:28 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 12:17 GhostOwl wrote:On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well) Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race.. Dude, Guardians are like the a non useless version of Queens pre-broodling stage. And Queens have been utilized fairly a lot in fighting Mech. What is good about Guardians is that they have these incredible long range attacks that you can just bounce back and fourth between the bases by having like 4 of them. With it, you can probably not worry about any sort of drops that would ravage your econ that the usual Scourges would sometime miss and your multitask will fall behind if you are simply attempting to do some type of Defiler/Ling defense. Plus it can used a lot to snipe HTs in Zerg vs Protoss by having them around a cliff when the P is marching toward your base. Errm, Queen pre-broodling stage comes BEFORE Guardian tech. Queens are better than Guardians at fighting mech because they're fast enough to escape wraiths / goliaths, they're spellcasters, meaning 1 spell = 1 tank death. You try killing a tank with 1 guardian and see if you can kill it before the guardian gets killed. Besides, Broodling range is just as much as Wraiths if not more, and Queens cost way less gas. You can put your guardians bounce back and forth, but by the time Terran realizes this, he'll build wraiths supported by MnM to protect it from scourges. I would rather have Mutas to snipe out HTs than spend extra gas to get a slower unit to snipe the HTs. Your logic is killing me bro.
The reason why queens are also used is because you can queue the broodling commands + retreat commands without significant difference in micro abilities, plus trading a queen for a tank is more cost-effective in terms of minerals. But anyways, enough queens and you leave yourself vulnerable to stuff like fantasy's wraiths. The point is that late-game mech has no real definitive answer in terms of composition, other than "play it by ear" and "sneak in more expos so you can kill T before he gets a big enough DMZ/deathball".
In one of the first instances of standard late mech transition games on Bloody Ridge in SPL, played by BaBy, Killer used a very nice guardian timing to destroy the bio army and then walk right in while BaBy was stopping bio production to transition into mass facts (I think this was why the advent of mass-vulture during the transition came forth; Flash, for instance, kept producing marines along with 4-7 facts worth of vultures until he got on 4-5 gases, then fully transitioned into mech). However, more than even irradiate, I think guardians are simply weak against anti-air in general and too immobile to do something akin to the hydra-muta switch-it-up game against tank-goliaths.
Disregarding late-mech transitions and its timings, pure mech was relatively easy to stop as long as the Z was smart enough to keep the T on 2 gases, MAAAYBE 3 gases max (just like an aggressive ZvP). That plus either snipe the tanks early on with upgraded mutas before the T pushes, or have defilers out and good army spread when the T does push. On Destination, for example, a T's mech was easily contained and smashed (as seen by JD's games vs Flash/Skyhigh). However, on places like Triathlon, where AI pathing and random ledges where tanks could shoot hydras walking in a line were readily available, once a Terran snuck a third in or spammed enough vultures + mines to prevent the hydras from getting in before the tanks were set up, it was effectively over.
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On August 02 2012 03:37 Prince_Stranger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 03:33 JieXian wrote:
Forget bonjwa, Flash was called God right? Why isn't that not enough? Actually, I am talking about Jaedong.
lol I wasn't referring to anyone specific. Especially since I didn't quote you.
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EPT
