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-1. Introduction
I guess every StarCraft: Brood War (BW) fan is looking forward to watch JangBi vs. Fantasy final match this weekend. But after that game, sadly that's it! We will not be having OSL (Ongamenet StarLeague) in BW anymore. As I am a huge SC2 fan as well, it is exciting to have OSL in SC2. But man, I have watched BW progaming for more than 10 years and it is torturing me to finally see its end. I couldn't let it go like this; I had to do something.
Because I am a Statistics student I did some statistical analysis, mainly to answer the following question: 'Who is the fifth bonjwa?' It is indisputable that Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma (BoxeR, NaDa, iloveoov, and sAviOr) were bonjwas, who showed dominating performance in their respective peak era. But who succeeds sAviOr, the fourth bonjwa, has been a hot issue in BW community. And I thought this should probably be the best time to attempt to answer that question, as we only have 3~5 matches left. (although proleague is still going on...)
Before we start, I wrote the Korean version of this article first. Without question my Korean is much smoother than my English, so those who can speak Korean may refer to here
0. Statistical Model and Data Collection
First of all, let me provide you some background about how it is possible to use Statistics to answer this 'bonjwa question'. For those who hate math & stat, you may skip to the next section. But don't worry too much, as I wouldn't go into technical detail here. I just want to make it clear how I came up with those numbers, so that if you are suspicious you can study yourself and criticize it if you feel so.
In games like Chess and Go, which two players challenge against each other to determine who is the winner, probably the most famous rating system is the Elo rating system which is named after the Physicist Arpad Elo. This Elo system is actually also used in TLPD to rank both BW and SC2 gamers. But the system I used is the extension of Elo, called TrueSkill Through Time (TTT). Compared to the Elo system, this TTT system models how the skill of a player changes over time more explicitly. Actually, it was proposed by researchers in Microsoft to investigate the history of Chess; and as a SC nerd, I thought it would be fun to apply it to BW matchup records.
I used this TTT system with almost no modification, so you may refer to the linked paper about assumptions I had to make for the analysis. I have to admit that the model relies on heavy assumptions. (So again there will be people claiming 'Statisticians are liars!') But using a statistical model such as Elo or TTT is often more useful than just plotting descriptive statistics such as win-rate each month, as the statistical model fully utilizes the information in our data while descriptive statistics may exaggerate certain aspect of data, possibly on purpose. At least in my opinion this TTT model is the standard way a Statistician may formulate the problem.
I used Team Liquid Progaming Database (TLPD) BW database from 1999 September 25th PKO matches to 2012 July 24th Proleague matches for analysis. The original TTT paper uses each year as a time window; as BW has much shorter history than Chess, I used each month as a time window.
The TTT model evaluates the skill of each player at each month as a quantified number. Let me just call it rating. Actually the system gives an estimate of mean and standard deviation of the rating, but if I plot both of them simultaneously the graph becomes messy. So I just defined rating as rating=mean - standard deviation * 3, which is a conservative estimate. When a gamer retires and we do not have any record of him anymore, then the uncertainty about our information on his skill increases, so the rating gets lower.
Also, this TTT model assumes the skill of a player changes slowly, so when we find a surprisingly strong rookie the system thinks he has secretly honed his skill behind the scene. Therefore early outstanding players such as Grrrr... is overshadowed by later gamers such as BoxeR. However, this is just because we don't have enough records in the beginning, and as we accumulate more and more matches the model stabilizes quite quickly.
Enough about statistical mumbo-jumbos! Let's talk about the game now!
1. The Emperor rises, but the Genius takes him over
So, let's see TTT ratings of top 5 players from 2000 to 2003! (of course there are more than 5, as the ranking surely fluctuates)
![[image loading]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-mGMdwdWf4fA/UBYuiBqwZ2I/AAAAAAAAEQU/76WiIYBrsIs/s640/plot1.png)
'Emperor' BoxeR is increasing his skill very rapidly, and 'Kong' YellOw is right behind him! Just at the moment YellOw overcomes BoxeR, however, 'Genius' NaDa suddenly appears and takes BoxeR's crown instead. (What a Kong!) We can find good ol' gamers such as ChRh, TheMarine who is now working in OGN, Sync... and actually H is H.O.T Forever! Sorry for the mistake in the legend.
2. Oh my god! It's a Monster!
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mfKgCX0l5RI/UBY0JcjOJ1I/AAAAAAAAEQk/8pcYnMmglCA/s640/plot2.png)
Then the 'Monster' iloveoov takes over NaDa's throne. Interestingly, the period of time iloveoov dominated the scene wasn't that long compared to my perception. His skill starts to decline quite soon after the peak and he catches up NaDa's slow declination. Maybe this shows how outstanding gamer NaDa was, in terms of the length of time he remained as a top player.
In this era, there were too many outstanding gamers, so the graph becomes quite messy. But I just wanted to include all of them, as many of you would want to see them as well. I am sorry I couldn't include more...
3. "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named"
Note that I am not using a consistent color/style scheme; the color for each player changes over time. I am sorry, but I am a lazy fellow...
![[image loading]](http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-avldpTw2FKM/UBY24mk-hvI/AAAAAAAAEQ0/8Myfe1xxPqg/s640/plot3.png)
The next Bonjwa is the one "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named", but this is too lengthy to type so let me just call him sAviOr. For a brief amount of time Midas becomes the rank 1 gamer, but sAviOr suddenly rises in this era of Terran-dominance and shows unbelievable performance. He was really great at that point of time... Too bad he made a wrong choice. Actually I thought Bisu had no chance against sAviOr, and didn't even watch the match, missing the revolutionary 3.3 moment.
4. The era of TBLS
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/--mVXLTkCLfI/UBY58GLdLFI/AAAAAAAAERE/wEXuYmmu2TE/s640/plot4.png)
After his striking 0:3 loss in 2007 March 3rd, the rating of sAviOr plummets and TBLS (Taek-Bang-LeeSsang, or Bisu-Stork-Flash-Jaedong) starts to dominate the scene. From here it is easy to plot top 5 rank players, as there is hardly other. Only Sea was capable of competing with TBLS, but after 2008 even he is no longer able to continue to do so. Jaedong actually continues to be ranked 1st for quite a long time, but Flash follows him right after, therefore it is hard to say whether Jaedong was a bonjwa or not. Maybe this ambiguity was the reason why we discussed so much about who was the fifth bonjwa.
5. The heyday of 'The Last Weapon'
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fZQpkEJ2Xik/UBY8bbifSSI/AAAAAAAAERM/ne54pBQzmK0/s640/plot5.png)
While the performance of Jaedong declines, Flash rises further up. It looks his rating was as outstanding as sAviOr's bonjwa days... Bisu is keep torturing us, by giving us some hope but then crushing it again and again... Fantasy is slowly rising and JangBi is probably experiencing 'Do you know how to play game?' era...
6. And... the end
![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-yEKRVQ9YndQ/UBY9-oEv16I/AAAAAAAAERU/4AAknjmuNDo/s640/plo6.png)
So this is the last graph, plotting until 2012 July. It looks like recently Flash has not been as dominating as he was before. And finally in the last two months Fantasy achieves the rank 1! Slow and steady paid at last, but maybe it was a little bit too slow; he could be the next bonjwa; who knows? But he is not given the chance...
7. Conclusion
And at this point, you may ask me 'So who is the fifth bonjwa? It's of course Jaedong, right?' Well... I showed you numbers and plots! :-D I am a Statistician, after all, and I always avoid responsibility! It is up to you how to define what bonjwa is and determine who should be the fifth bonjwa.
I am sorry I could not include more players, as I focused my analysis on top 5 rank players for each era. But we should not forget those who made us laugh and cry, showing incredible matches and giving us unforgettable memories. Thank you BW gamers!
Also, thank Team Liquid for the maintenance of perfect database system. Without TLPD I could not even imagine of conducting this analysis. I hope I am not abusing your system here... Teamliquid Hwaiting!
Thank Josh Menke for helpful comments and discussions. Actually Josh did a very similar analysis long before this, and because he showed me his wonderful results I was not afraid of investing my time on it. While the credit of this work should be given to him, all the blame should be given to me because I did not ask him to verify this post.
Thank you very much, you BW fans, for enduring this horrible broken-English writing, and supporting the BW progaming with me for quite a long time!
Lastly, every opinion expressed here is my personal one and has nothing to do with the official position of Blizzard Entertainment. Still, why don't we also thank Blizzard for developing this wonderful game, following up with constant patches and maintaining the Battle.net server for more than 10 years without any further fee after the box sales? I believe SC2 and its expansions will give us unforgettable wonderful memories as well.
p.s. "Bonjwa" is not a common word; it is never used in day to day Korean. It is actually mostly used in certain fantasy genre in Korea, as a first-person pronoun to brag himself. 본좌 is written 本座 in Chinese letters. 本 denotes 'me' or 'myself', and '座' means 'seat' and its meaning can be extended to 'status'. So 본좌(本座) means 'a person like me with such a status!' So using 'Bonjwa' to refer to a third person is actually abusing the original meaning of the word, but I would not oppose it as I guess it acquired a new meaning in BW community.
8. More plots
Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma + Jaedong, Flash lifetime ratings
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tl2E7NIjDME/UBZJ3kRhArI/AAAAAAAAERk/Tft11d56-G8/s640/plot7.png)
TBLS
![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Tkg2kT1tz5k/UBZKQSn-jsI/AAAAAAAAER0/v7SAc4wMhT0/s640/ploy8.png)
Six Dragons
![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-2ISNhb-GKIk/UBZK4E1lJAI/AAAAAAAAER8/-CD2tD78LNE/s640/plot9.png)
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Interesting how Bisu's consistency in PL made him much more relevant as a player than his mediocre individual league results after winning his MSLs; and how Stork's performance has only suffered since his 0-3 vs Fantasy.
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On July 31 2012 16:42 krndandaman wrote:
nice write up !
imo the only reason flash and jaedong aren't called bonjwa's is because both of them were too damn good at the same time.
if they reached their respective peaks during different time periods both of them would probably have been named bonjwa's.
Uh, I'm pretty sure most people call Flash a bonjwa--there was definitely a long period of time where he was the undisputed #1
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Thx for this nice study and your effort.
The problem with such a statistical approach, however, is that it only takes into account the win rates and not the ability of a player to win important matches and, thus, titles. If you compare the curves of Boxer/Nada and Jaedong/Flash (Plot 8a) they look very similar regarding their rising flanks (of course jaedong/flash is much higher). Boxer and Nada are of course Bonjwa, jaedong/flash are not undisputed.
So, the difference might be that
1.) winning titles is more important than win rates (or flash or even jaedong would easily be bonjwa)
and
2.) winning titles without another bonjwa candidate winning titles in the same year (or period of time) is also very important (jaedong won 2007 and 2x 2009, Flash won 2008 and 2009 and 2010). [i was only referring to OSLs]
However, in my opinion jaedong and flash were both bonjwas, similar to boxer and nada.
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Great article, thanks !
Very interesting perspective.
It's really a pity to see BW ending this way, I wouldn't have been surprised to see Fantasy become the 6th Bonjwa. Or maybe Jangbi is gonna win on Saturday, and he would have maybe won even more OSLs after... Damn, it's impossible not to be sad recently.
On July 31 2012 16:42 krndandaman wrote:
nice write up !
imo the only reason flash and jaedong aren't called bonjwa's is because both of them were too damn good at the same time.
if they reached their respective peaks during different time periods both of them would probably have been named bonjwa's.
I totally agree. If any one of them could have played without the other in its way he would have been the biggest bonjwa ever. They were just both so so good.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
An interesting addition to your graphs might be to mark when players win a major championship or place 2nd. It'll be interesting to also see whether players' successes occur during their rise, while at their peak without significant competition, at their peak with significant competition, or even during a slump or decline.
I'll try to study the Trueskill Through Time algorithm if I have time and see if I can think of a better way to apply it to Starcraft (operations research background)
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Well according your graphs Flash had a total of three years where he were in total dominance, which is clearly more then anyone else... That should _statisticly_ qualify his as a bonjwa? 
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Just because JD's peak was during the time I joined BW I am 100 % convinced he deseveres to be called bonjwa.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Keep in mind that Boxer's TLPD doesn't take into consideration a good number of smaller korean tournaments that he crushed (iirc they weren't on TV though).
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Just looking at the statistics, Flash SHOULD be the fifth bonjwa, but I think the problem is the term "bonjwa" started and ended with sAviOr. Before sAviOr the term bonjwa wasn't used to describe Boxer, NaDa, or Oov. After sAviOr, people looked back and decided that those three should be labelled Bonjwa as well. In all honesty, Flash should be, but I think it'd be better to leave the Era of the Bonjwas behind and follow the koreans with calling Flash something other than Bonjwa as Broodwar comes to an end.
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On July 31 2012 16:42 krndandaman wrote:
nice write up !
imo the only reason flash and jaedong aren't called bonjwa's is because both of them were too damn good at the same time.
if they reached their respective peaks during different time periods both of them would probably have been named bonjwa's.
I completely agree with dandaman here Flash and Jaedong stats are incredible but they kept butting heads with each other making it impossible for one or the other to attain complete dominance and bonjwa status.
Great Write up btw!
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![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/8/84/Bonjwa2.png)
This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD.
For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong.
GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
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Im surpised how long Jaedong was a top tier broodwar player.
and great comparism, i like statistics too ^^x
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Really cool writeup!
I have never been into BW, but this was def. worth spending my time on, really cool to read about these legends!
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On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma + Jaedong, Flash lifetime ratings
Damn, JD performed way better than any of the first 4 Bonjwas. Too bad the very definition of the word didn't allow him to be one because of Flash.
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On July 31 2012 23:08 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma + Jaedong, Flash lifetime ratings Damn, JD performed way better than any of the first 4 Bonjwas. Too bad the very definition of the word didn't allow him to be one because of Flash.
JD just had to choke on those finals vs Flash though.
His fault really.
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On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD. For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong. GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
that graph doesn't tell me anything to be honest. too many lines.
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Great writeup, you obviously put a lot of effort into this. It's cool that this rating captures how a top player like Boxer reaches his peak and plateaus, where he is surpassed by a later generation of more talented players... rather than what it feels like at the time, ie that he is getting worse.
In fact when Savior was in his first slump and making a slow (ultimately unsuccessful) comeback, he made the comment that he thought he was actually playing better than when he was winning everything, but that other players had simply become much better.
Also interesting that Bisu was behind 4 other players, including Flash and Jaedong who at the time hadn't won a Starleague, when he won back to back MSLs... then later when he is getting knocked out of the individual leagues he was statistically the 3rd-best. But again that doesn't feel soo wrong considering how it played out. I felt at the time like a lot of those individual league exits came down to some bad luck and losing to cheeses, even though he was really separating himself from everyone except Flash/Jaedong in terms of mechanics and multitask. (Stork said he was amazed by how fast Bisu's hands were after watching him play in a tournament held in China I think.. this was well after the MSLs but when Bisu was doing really well in proleague)
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On July 31 2012 23:13 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD. For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong. GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games. that graph doesn't tell me anything to be honest. too many lines.
just only look at the color on the very top, the rest is pretty much redundant. Shows the gap between the bonjwas of their time and.. the rest.
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On a more human level and also as a competitor - I start to wonder whether people start declining in their sheer ability to process information and respond with dexterous movement after a particular time in an individuals lifetime. The answer seems obvious but a part of me doesn't want to believe it.
I used to stare at these kind of graphs for other things like Tennis and Chess too and usually its something like a hump, although in many other forms of competition, there's less of an impetus to respond instantly and experience can be the entire makeup of determining skill, where you see guys like Kasparov maintain a positive slope for a good duration of 20 years.
It's awesome to see particular players that have relative longevity like Storkbi, but on the 6 Dragon's graph it's depressing to see Kal's line just drop.
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On July 31 2012 23:39 zanzib wrote:
On a more human level and also as a competitor - I start to wonder whether people start declining in their sheer ability to process information and respond with dexterous movement after a particular time in an individuals lifetime. The answer seems obvious but a part of me doesn't want to believe it.
I used to stare at these kind of graphs for other things like Tennis and Chess too and usually its something like a hump, although in many other forms of competition, there's less of an impetus to respond instantly and experience can be the entire makeup of determining skill, where you see guys like Kasparov maintain a positive slope for a good duration of 20 years.
It's awesome to see particular players that have relative longevity like Storkbi, but on the 6 Dragon's graph it's depressing to see Kal's line just drop.
I believe that it is a mental wall that everyone faces and not actual age factor. Once you reach a certain peak, your mind may wonder all to other distractions and you won't be excatly 100% focused. I do believe that someone who started playing BW at age of 30, assuming that his fighting spirit is just as strong as his adolescent days, his passion will overcome this "lifetime peak".
Some players simply burns out after a while. Then they'll refocus on what matters the most.
On the note of Chess, you can't really compare that to Brood War because it doesn't require mechanics at all (well except moving the chess piece but that is really extraneous). Chess players will only get stronger as they accumulate knowledge and experience throughout the years. But however at a certain time in their life, they will too reach that "burn out" stage where slumps happen until their mind pull themselves together once again.
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Statistical Bonjwa Theory is a sick band name
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Great work! Please spotlight!
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I remember the days when Flash just couldn't lose.
I almost stopped watching BW for a while during that time. 
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Very nice.
And it doesn't bother me whether JD's considered a bonjwa or not. He's still one of the best players to have ever played the game, and he has the trophies & stats to show for it. The Tyrant is a good enough title for him.
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On July 31 2012 18:41 No0n wrote:
Just looking at the statistics, Flash SHOULD be the fifth bonjwa, but I think the problem is the term "bonjwa" started and ended with sAviOr. Before sAviOr the term bonjwa wasn't used to describe Boxer, NaDa, or Oov. After sAviOr, people looked back and decided that those three should be labelled Bonjwa as well. In all honesty, Flash should be, but I think it'd be better to leave the Era of the Bonjwas behind and follow the koreans with calling Flash something other than Bonjwa as Broodwar comes to an end.
I just want to double up on this point. The term Bonjwa was something born from the myth and hype surrounding sAviOr back in his prime. People at the time looked back and saw that you could draw a rough 'dynasty' of successive no.1 players, with each new no.1 defeating their predecessor in a high profile match. However a large part of that was just coincidence, and people retroactively interpreting history in a way that fit the 'Bonjwa Model'. With sAviOr's fall from grace the whole Bonjwa concept became tainted by association, and I agree that I think it's best to leave it behind.
That said, as a statistical analysis of the successive no.1 players in Broodwar history, this model is awesome. I really like the way this model shows things like Jaedong and Flash's close rivalry, or NaDa's huge consistency even after his prime.
If you have time, it would be awesome if you could work together with a 'broodwar historian' or someone with a lot of knowledge of the history itself and create an article about how your statistics reflect the events in the game and the careers of the players. The way this article: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=94254 takes the TvZ winrates statistics and sets it to the actual strategy, maps and metagame of the time.
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Really sick writeup, about these rating system: Oddly enough a lot of games use ELO or something the developers made up, while microsoft forces all their developers to use trueskill (halo series would be a good example).
If we have to stick with bonjwa (which we kinda have to given how wildly known it is throughout the community), I'd say we decide on both jaedong and flash to become the last two bonjwas of bw, even though flash is/was arguably more successful than jaedong, someone who rapes people with one of the most micro intensive rts mechanics of all time deserves to be on that list.
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what a good job!
this must be the most awesome statistic i have ever seen.
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Nice post. The most interesting thing to me here is Midas's rating. Being #1 for a few months is nothing to sneeze at, even if he never reached the peaks the others did. Shouldn't his line be in the final graph, too?
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It's funny knowing how savior would have been the ultimate ma bonjwa like he was destined to be. He would have been the greatest player to ever grace earth.
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nice post! thanks
On July 31 2012 23:08 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma + Jaedong, Flash lifetime ratings Damn, JD performed way better than any of the first 4 Bonjwas. Too bad the very definition of the word didn't allow him to be one because of Flash.
I'm pretty sure that comparison, saying JD performerd way better isnt entirely fair because Flash and Jaedong simply got to play way more games per month than the old bonjwas.
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United States23455 Posts
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
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On July 31 2012 18:39 Plexa wrote:
Keep in mind that Boxer's TLPD doesn't take into consideration a good number of smaller korean tournaments that he crushed (iirc they weren't on TV though).
Yes.
It is hard to compare results of today with results from back then because during that time the concept of "professional gaming" was very loosely defined. Back then players made their living from tournament prize money, so winning a $2000 tournament that was not on television was still very important even for top players like Boxer.
These days, almost all a player's money comes from the team and progamers are forbidden from even playing in smaller tournaments without permission.
On July 31 2012 18:41 No0n wrote:
Just looking at the statistics, Flash SHOULD be the fifth bonjwa, but I think the problem is the term "bonjwa" started and ended with sAviOr. Before sAviOr the term bonjwa wasn't used to describe Boxer, NaDa, or Oov. After sAviOr, people looked back and decided that those three should be labelled Bonjwa as well. In all honesty, Flash should be, but I think it'd be better to leave the Era of the Bonjwas behind and follow the koreans with calling Flash something other than Bonjwa as Broodwar comes to an end.
"Bonjwa" was first used as a nickname for July from his fans, but it didn't catch on because July was perceived as second to Oov, especially after getting 3-0'd in OSL.
On July 31 2012 23:08 NicksonReyes wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:Lim-Lee-Choi-Ma + Jaedong, Flash lifetime ratings Damn, JD performed way better than any of the first 4 Bonjwas. Too bad the very definition of the word didn't allow him to be one because of Flash.
Score depends on the number of games you play, same as with ELO. When Jaedong reached his prime, proleague was in the process of expanding to a much greater number of games and 2v2 was being reduced. If you pay careful attention to the numbers, you'll see that TBLS collectively is "ahead" of the bonjwas all at the same time.
Statistically speaking, the most important element for determining bonjwa is the gap between 1 and 2, 1 and 3, etc. That is to say, how far ahead of the rest of the field #1 is.
You might think of it this way: if the world record at some event is 100 but there are a dozen other players who have all scored better than 95, then that's not nearly as impressive as if the world record is a score of 80 but the second best player only has a score of 60.
The only thing startling to me about these graphs is how short the Boxer and Savior eras appear; however, in both cases there were small but significant events that are not featured in the data. For example with Savior playing at WEG or whatever it was called -- this tournament was unofficial and does not count towards stats, but Savior was defeating top players in dominating fashion.
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There you see what makes god god.
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I think to not call Flash bonjwa is ludicrous. In late 2009, 2010, and 2011; flash was the undisputed best player, no doubts.
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Interesting, that was a good study. We can define bonjwa the way we want, but i will talk more about the influence and psychological impact those players had. As it was stated in an other article regarding the term "bonjwa" it started and ended with sAviOr. After that, sure you got Jaedong and Flash, they won more trophy, but they still had a rivalry, while sAviOr was just over the top.
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On August 01 2012 00:15 Xiphos wrote:
On the note of Chess, you can't really compare that to Brood War because it doesn't require mechanics at all (well except moving the chess piece but that is really extraneous). Chess players will only get stronger as they accumulate knowledge and experience throughout the years. But however at a certain time in their life, they will too reach that "burn out" stage where slumps happen until their mind pull themselves together once again.
Cognitive decline begins in your late 20s. Experience/accumulation of more knowledge can hold off visible effects of that for quite a while, but at some point, that's going to play out for a chess grandmaster similarly to how loss of dexterity plays out for progamers.
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Very nice write up. Looking at the statistics Flash is definitely the most deserving of the title.
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Jeez, those graphs are quite eye opening.
Basically, Flash became untouchable, it gives me the chills how much higher his numbers go above the other bonjwas.
Flash definitely isn't a bonjwa. He deserves something more prestigious, something that is made for him exclusively.
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I dont have the greatest knowledge of Brood War, but isnt Bonjwa given when everybody knows he is the best player at that point in time? So how do stats prove that? And if Flash is the greatest player of all-time, how is he not a bonjwa? thanks for answering these questions guys. Plus I thought Flash was already considered a bonjwa?
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On August 01 2012 03:58 TommyP wrote:
I dont have the greatest knowledge of Brood War, but isnt Bonjwa given when everybody knows he is the best player at that point in time? So how do stats prove that? And if Flash is the greatest player of all-time, how is he not a bonjwa? thanks for answering these questions guys. Plus I thought Flash was already considered a bonjwa?
IIRC Flash was officially proclaimed to be beyond bonjwa, he is in his own class. Its like S-class<bonjwa<God<Flash. But this discussion is redundant, it has been discussed to death already.
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Some things cannot be calculated, like the artistry of the play. Flash is the best ever, but no one can seriously argue that his play is as beautiful as Savior's. The way Savior controlled space with almost nothing was extraordinary. It seems to me that Flash discovered some kind of "attrition priniciple", where he understood that Terran is most cost effective and therefore he can defend and trade armies in late game behind a line of tanks, at least in TvZ.
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sAviOr may have been the "fourth" bonjwa, but he was also the "original" bonjwa.
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sorry but you'd have to completely exclude most of this osl and last season of BW as you can clearly tell that motivation is lost for BW and Flash didn't really look like he was trying his best anymore. Fantasy had plenty of time to pick it up but he never did through out the years, I enjoy watching him play but he wasn't as good as Flash, even at the end.
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On August 01 2012 04:29 muta_micro wrote:
Some things cannot be calculated, like the artistry of the play. Flash is the best ever, but no one can seriously argue that his play is as beautiful as Savior's. The way Savior controlled space with almost nothing was extraordinary. It seems to me that Flash discovered some kind of "attrition priniciple", where he understood that Terran is most cost effective and therefore he can defend and trade armies in late game behind a line of tanks, at least in TvZ.
Well without that EVER OSL 2009, he would have never went into his rampage.
And he faced against ALL Zs in that tourny before meeting Movie.
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To me, JD/Flash weren't so much bonjwas so much as masters of their craft. Difference is that while Boxer/NaDa/oov/sAviOr were really really damn good at what each of them did (and thus showcased the different facets of playing BW), they weren't, say, able to master most/all of the skills to the extent that JD/Flash did, or be as consistently clutch (as shown in too many damn statistics posts). So I say that we should simply respect the bonjwas for being the best during their times and for what they contributed to mainstream SC thinking, but then call JD/Flash, very simply, "the best SC:BW players, ever".
Flash is better than JD though...sigh that pains me as a JD fanboy
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All in all Flash was better than JD. Though it is hard to compare them because they played different races, you just have to acknowledge the fact that Flash was simply a little bit more succesful. not so much the 6vs5 individual titles (and both have one GOM league), but Flash in Proleague 2010 and 2011 was just unmatched.
I never thought the bonjwa discussions serve any purpose, there is such weird circumstances to obtain that title. Excluding JD from the list of the other 5 players feels incredibly weird, because he clearly was as good as them, if not better than most.
What I really love about Flash vs JD is that their head-to-head is 24-24 in TLPD (you have to substract the all-star game win from Flash, that was the definition of a fun-game). While most of their games were pretty one-sided, some of them were unbelievable good. If the Tau Cross game during the WCG Grand Final would have been played during an OSL Final, it would probably be remembered as the best ZvT game of all time (besides Savior vs Iris game 5 of course).
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United States10328 Posts
Excellent article
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa!
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I like those graphs, all those names and still have memorable games in my mind, the reason why jd is my personal bonjwa is because i only know how to love terrans, i followed boxer through his time, then nada and oov but jd is the one and only player of a different race which made me cheer for him and be upset when he lost
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On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th. Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa!
I second that opinion. I am Korean, and I think Koreans just called him 'God' but not a 'bonjwa'.
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On July 31 2012 23:13 mathemagician1986 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD. For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong. GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games. that graph doesn't tell me anything to be honest. too many lines.
What you're supposed to see is that, despite the lines of every player being present (correct me if I'm wrong) you can see the bonjwas lines individually during the times they were dominant.
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United States33171 Posts
On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th. Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=154423#three
REQUIRED READING FOR EVERYONE
"I once compared the concept of Bonjwa to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It was an honorary title with no rhyme or reason to it, only created to fit a specific need at a certain period in time. People have and will continue to try and invoke it in the future, but it will never have its original meaning and or be recognized in the same way again."
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On August 01 2012 07:31 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th. Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=154423#threeREQUIRED READING FOR EVERYONE "I once compared the concept of Bonjwa to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It was an honorary title with no rhyme or reason to it, only created to fit a specific need at a certain period in time. People have and will continue to try and invoke it in the future, but it will never have its original meaning and or be recognized in the same way again."
You should make it a test. For one week noone can enter teamliquid.net unless they succesfully answer a three-page multiple choice questionaire on ESPORTS history and terminology. Would be awesome!
Or just make it a Beta-key contest whenever HotS beta comes around...
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On August 01 2012 07:31 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 07:17 Plexa wrote:On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th. Mmm while I don't speak Korean the impression I got was that they didn't call him a Bonjwa, but rather called him 'God' as a way of saying he was better than them. So technically, not the 5th bonjwa! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=154423#threeREQUIRED READING FOR EVERYONE "I once compared the concept of Bonjwa to the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. It was an honorary title with no rhyme or reason to it, only created to fit a specific need at a certain period in time. People have and will continue to try and invoke it in the future, but it will never have its original meaning and or be recognized in the same way again."
Agreed. It's sad how the amount of "____ is bonjwa" has not declined over the years. So sick of people saying "lol there is no way Flash can't be bonjwa" when they don't know anything about anything really -_-
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On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:
This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD.
GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
The TTT model is also posed in a Bayesian framework, like Glicko-2. It also measures uncertainty (which just isn't included in in these graphs) and volatility.
Unlike Glicko-2, TTT is fit using a state-of-the-art inference method (Expectation Propagation). Glicko-2 is a single-pass method over the set, probably chunked 5 games at a time (if you don't, the Newton-Raphson iterative step won't be effective). TTT is multi-pass, simultaneously considering all of the data, AND accounting for skill changes over time.
I personally prefer the inference method used for this analysis over Glicko-2, and I know the authors of both.
I would trust these > Glicko-2.
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Everyone should agree that Flaedonsh is the last bonjwa. He alone dominated the whole scene nearly as long as all the other 4 bonjwas together.
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Nada, oov, boxer and Savior may have been 'kings'. Flash I would consider as the God of the Kings. Jaedong was the only God-Slayer present
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Based on this data, if you accept that Boxer was a Bonjwa, then you must also accept Jaedong.
In my mind, there are six, and that is all that matters. Because my opinions about a title based on opinion are actually facts. Even ask me.
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Who was the fifth bonjwa?
LeeSsang
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On August 01 2012 09:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Based on this data, if you accept that Boxer was a Bonjwa, then you must also accept Jaedong.
In my mind, there are six, and that is all that matters. Because my opinions about a title based on opinion are actually facts. Even ask me.
Bisu was somewhat of a Bonjwa too. He defeated the previous one and he revolutionized PvZ not only once but twice.
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United States10328 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:30 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 09:12 U_G_L_Y wrote:
Based on this data, if you accept that Boxer was a Bonjwa, then you must also accept Jaedong.
In my mind, there are six, and that is all that matters. Because my opinions about a title based on opinion are actually facts. Even ask me. Bisu was somewhat of a Bonjwa too. He defeated the previous one and he revolutionized PvZ not only once but twice.
unfortunately Mind ruined everything
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While Bonjwa implies/is defined by a single champion that dominates everybody, it is clear that Jaedong and Flash are not only better than the previous legends, but were dominating in their own right. Is it not possible that 2 or 3 Bonjwas could exist at the same time?
Bisu did dominate for sometime, and could be in contention, though many put him in the just under bonjwa tier.
Stork, there will probably be more votes for him being closer to just under bonjwa tier altogether, but still possible.
Fantasy, is possible, but same issues with Stork.
Remember that the 5 mentioned are playing in an era beset with dominators, and it is possible that the era reached the limits of gameplay/brood war understanding (apart from slight mechanical improvement). Clearly, the first two should be considered Bonjwas, and the other 3, at least under review/contention.
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On August 01 2012 11:00 krndandaman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 04:29 muta_micro wrote:
Some things cannot be calculated, like the artistry of the play. Flash is the best ever, but no one can seriously argue that his play is as beautiful as Savior's. The way Savior controlled space with almost nothing was extraordinary. It seems to me that Flash discovered some kind of "attrition priniciple", where he understood that Terran is most cost effective and therefore he can defend and trade armies in late game behind a line of tanks, at least in TvZ. to be fair Flash's play had a certain artistry to it as well. the way he perfected simcity... flash grasped that concept better than anyone else in the history of broodwar. seeing the simcity and how every single building placement was preplanned gave me chills and an appreciation for flash's preparation and ingenious thinking. also, flash's starsense.... that thing gave me chills. particularly the one with going blind bunks against calm's unscouted 2hatch lurkling all-in.
His starsense during Game 1 and game 4 of Korean Air S2 finals... amazing
And his turret placement > all. Basically everyone would watch Flash play on a map and then copy his turrets placement.
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Thanks for this. Really gives an unbiased view of how dominant the bonjwas were.
On August 01 2012 00:23 hacklebeast wrote:
Statistical Bonjwa Theory is a sick band name
I second this.
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God > Bonjwa
Statistics are fun, but there's the subjective value of the games. Which is why Power Rank always held such a deep spot in my heart.
Flash: Back-to-back-to-back dual finals in 2010, winning 4 of the 6. Such dominance was never achieved before, nor after. He also dominated SPL in 2010. And even as recently as late 2011 and early 2012, Flash was virtually unstoppable in SPL.
It's the general talk of things that truly define a bonjwa. I remember that even after he made his third and fourth consecutive finals (losing to Effort, and defeating Jaedong) Koreans still denied him Bonjwa status. Several months later, Flash defeats Jaedong twice and they proclaim him God.
How could they not? Flash and Jaedong were both far better than anyone else in the scene during this time. And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all. At this time, Bisu was considered slumping and not a top toss, and even Stork was only the #3 Protoss behind Kal and Free. None of these Protoss did anything notable in 2010. Effort couldn't follow up his success with another individual league run ever again. Flash and Jaedong were the only real men, and even Jaedong looked like crap when he got 3-0'd by a 14ccing Flash.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary.
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Awesome graphs! I like all the extra ones you showed.
After knowing so much about BW history... it makes me want to cry that BW is ending. I'm a SC2 gamer but SC2 has its own flaws and BW is also a great game.
Knowing all these players' stories, victories and defeats, ups and downs, and all that tragic stuff... is really beautiful. It's like people who may study old history of a country and look at the kings/emperors and etc.
I don't think it's just me, but just thinking of the shifts in power between players (and the stories behind them) is so awesome. When I look at such graphs, and I look at 2000... it is the beginning. Then 2001, then 2002, you see shifts and shifts. Suddenly we're at 2007 and then 2012, and all's different. Progamers rise and fall.
If these graphs are to represent skill, then it looks like Jaedong is the 5th bonjwa and Flash is the 6th. But then again, TBLS did really well during Jaedong's time, even if Jaedong's skill is higher than theirs for about a year. I guess it wasn't high enough (at least according to these graphs), as Flash becomes way higher than the rest for about 2 years.
Surprised to see jangbi so low. I don't quite understand how the skill level is calculated though, but I would have thought jangbi is higher since he's been in 2 finals and beat flash.
On a final note, since I've been following sc2 the whole time, i realize I still miss a lot. I don't know about the players that aren't at the top. Players like midas and sea, I don't know much about even though they are great. In SC2, it's only been about 2 years but I know the winners of all the GSLs, who is dominant and such, by the month. Looking at those 12 years of BW, it awes me how much more there is I don't know. I only know the general trends, by year. I don't know all the interesting stories from each month.
Esports forever <3
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The TTT thing just seems wrong for Protoss. Stork and Bisu were both the best player in the world at certain points, but these stats don't show that. Don't tell me Bisu in late 2008 and early 2009 wasn't the best player in the world for much of this time. His SPL record would make any non-Bisu player from any era jealous (no, really), and he won an MSL and GSL at the same time. Only after Jaedong beat Fantasy did JD become (again) the best player in the world, imo.
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Btw if Fantasy wins, I will be glad.
Boxer was the first best player (aside from Grrrr, don't think he dominated long enough).
Nada overcame Boxer, but Boxer's son iloveoov, who was older than Nada, overcame Nada later on.
Then savior and flash/TBLS came in.
But now boxer's grandson fantasy is here, and is #1 (well hopefully he beats jangbi this time lol).
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On August 01 2012 13:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Btw if Fantasy wins, I will be glad.
Boxer was the first best player (aside from Grrrr, don't think he dominated long enough).
Nada overcame Boxer, but Boxer's son iloveoov, who was older than Nada, overcame Nada later on.
Then savior and flash/TBLS came in.
But now boxer's grandson fantasy is here, and is #1 (well hopefully he beats jangbi this time lol).
That reminds me how sad it is that Midas never won a Starleague 
Especially when you take a look at the graph during Savior's domination era, Midas is pretty much the only one not too far behind Savior.
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Bonjwa is an inappropriate term to measure Flash's skill level.
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On August 01 2012 12:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Looking at those 12 years of BW, it awes me how much more there is I don't know. I only know the general trends, by year. I don't know all the interesting stories from each month.
Check out the PRs!
http://www.teamliquid.net/powerrank/
Scroll to the bottom, and read up. They begin at the height of Savior's dominance over the scene. Sure they are subjective, but rarely is there a truly unpopular #1 choice and only occasionally do some solid performers get snubbed from a low spot.
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On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:In games like Chess and Go, which two players challenge against each other to determine who is the winner, probably the most famous rating system is the Elo rating system which is named after the Physicist Arpad Elo. This Elo system is actually also used in TLPD to rank both BW and SC2 gamers. But the system I used is the extension of Elo, called TrueSkill Through Time (TTT). Compared to the Elo system, this TTT system models how the skill of a player changes over time more explicitly. Actually, it was proposed by researchers in Microsoft to investigate the history of Chess; and as a SC nerd, I thought it would be fun to apply it to BW matchup records. I used this TTT system with almost no modification, so you may refer to the linked paper about assumptions I had to make for the analysis. I have to admit that the model relies on heavy assumptions. (So again there will be people claiming 'Statisticians are liars!') But using a statistical model such as Elo or TTT is often more useful than just plotting descriptive statistics such as win-rate each month, as the statistical model fully utilizes the information in our data while descriptive statistics may exaggerate certain aspect of data, possibly on purpose. At least in my opinion this TTT model is the standard way a Statistician may formulate the problem.
Awesome analysis and graph!. I had always wanted to do a similar thing, but using Whole History Rating rather than TTT, I am so glad someone else did that instead of me! Since I am not a statistician, I was wondering: what is the difference between the two? They seem to use a very similar model, except that WHR use Newton approximations to converge quickly, so I guess it can afford to have a smaller unit interval. By the way what time interval did you use for the TTT? And what variability?
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On August 01 2012 14:51 gondolin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2012 15:19 d_ijk_stra wrote:In games like Chess and Go, which two players challenge against each other to determine who is the winner, probably the most famous rating system is the Elo rating system which is named after the Physicist Arpad Elo. This Elo system is actually also used in TLPD to rank both BW and SC2 gamers. But the system I used is the extension of Elo, called TrueSkill Through Time (TTT). Compared to the Elo system, this TTT system models how the skill of a player changes over time more explicitly. Actually, it was proposed by researchers in Microsoft to investigate the history of Chess; and as a SC nerd, I thought it would be fun to apply it to BW matchup records. I used this TTT system with almost no modification, so you may refer to the linked paper about assumptions I had to make for the analysis. I have to admit that the model relies on heavy assumptions. (So again there will be people claiming 'Statisticians are liars!') But using a statistical model such as Elo or TTT is often more useful than just plotting descriptive statistics such as win-rate each month, as the statistical model fully utilizes the information in our data while descriptive statistics may exaggerate certain aspect of data, possibly on purpose. At least in my opinion this TTT model is the standard way a Statistician may formulate the problem. Awesome analysis and graph!. I had always wanted to do a similar thing, but using Whole History Rating rather than TTT, I am so glad someone else did that instead of me! Since I am not a statistician, I was wondering: what is the difference between the two? They seem to use a very similar model, except that WHR use Newton approximations to converge quickly, so I guess it can afford to have a smaller unit interval. By the way what time interval did you use for the TTT? And what variability?
I am not very familiar with the WHR, but as a Statistician I would personally prefer TTT over WHR. Basically all these models are attempting to solve a special case of Bayesian classification, and it is known that for this class of problems MAP (Maximum A Posteriori) estimate which is used by WHR is not a good representation of posterior distribution than EP (Expectation Propagation) is. In terms of classification accuracy usually there is no big difference, and maybe that's why the WHR authors could've improved it in their paper, but here we are much more interested in the interpretation (who is a better player than the other) and thus supposedly TTT with EP should be more favorable. See this paper for reference.
However, I could be biased because the authors of TTT paper are very accomplished researchers of the field and I love their work. Again, I do not have deep understanding of WHR and it is possible that WHR is a superior model at least in some context.
I used each month as the time interval, but I could've implemented it without using time intervals and represent the date exactly. It is just more convenient to implement that way and I am a lazy fellow... :-)
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On August 01 2012 02:03 Fionn wrote:
I thought Flash was proclaimed a bonjwa by the Korean press after he won the MSL/OSL in a span of a week? Pretty sure he's the 5th.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152052
With this victory, you’ve risen to Bonjwa status.
A Receiving a title like that is quite an honor but compared to the players who rose to that level before, I think I’m still lacking. Though it’s nice if fans call me that, I still think “Ultimate Weapon” is better and more appropriate for me right now.
Edit: This quote is from the Korean Air Season 2 OSL, where he defeated Jaedong a second time.
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United States10092 Posts
pretty sure im quoting someone on this, please let me know if you said this so i can give you credit.
someone said something on the lines on "bonjwa is a stupid word given to savior at his peak and lost meaning after flash and jaedong both rose to their dominance."
seriously, the term "bonjwa" was crushed by both flash and jaedong, the only difference is, flash had a higher peak, and therefore, jaedong was left in the dark while flash was crowned "god".
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Actually, if Savior is being called a Bonjwa, then Jaedong and Flash might both be Bonjwas.
Look at the length of Saviors dominance. It wasn´t very long, or clear. (Neither was iloveoov)
It seems to me the title of Bonjwa was given to people who discovered a playstyle and dominated with it. That´s why Flash isn´t a Bonjwa, he is the ultimate weapon.
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On August 01 2012 15:55 Mataza wrote:Actually, if Savior is being called a Bonjwa, then Jaedong and Flash might both be Bonjwas. Look at the length of Saviors dominance. It wasn´t very long, or clear. (Neither was iloveoov) It seems to me the title of Bonjwa was given to people who discovered a playstyle and dominated with it. That´s why Flash isn´t a Bonjwa, he is the ultimate weapon.
Wow interesting, you are right, from that graph it's only 1 year for both about, which is the same as jaedong. Though it seems that people considered iloveoov/savior to dominate for a bit longer than a year? I think if jaedong kept it up for half a year there would be little doubt he would be considered a bonjwa.
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On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:God > Bonjwa Statistics are fun, but there's the subjective value of the games. Which is why Power Rank always held such a deep spot in my heart. Flash: Back-to-back-to-back dual finals in 2010, winning 4 of the 6. Such dominance was never achieved before, nor after. He also dominated SPL in 2010. And even as recently as late 2011 and early 2012, Flash was virtually unstoppable in SPL. It's the general talk of things that truly define a bonjwa. I remember that even after he made his third and fourth consecutive finals (losing to Effort, and defeating Jaedong) Koreans still denied him Bonjwa status. Several months later, Flash defeats Jaedong twice and they proclaim him God. How could they not? Flash and Jaedong were both far better than anyone else in the scene during this time. And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all. At this time, Bisu was considered slumping and not a top toss, and even Stork was only the #3 Protoss behind Kal and Free. None of these Protoss did anything notable in 2010. Effort couldn't follow up his success with another individual league run ever again. Flash and Jaedong were the only real men, and even Jaedong looked like crap when he got 3-0'd by a 14ccing Flash. TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary.
Really true. Flash has always been my favourite player since I knew about the scene in early 2009. Even though Flash had been rolling through everyone in almost every single match he played (this is where he was having a 90% win-rate lol) there was still a palpable hesitation in naming him a bonjwa. Bonjwa is not a light term and the community knows it - it is the highest honour that the fans can bestow on a player.
In 2009, Jaedong was dominating the opposition and there was a lot of discussion at the time as to whether Jaedong was a bonjwa. The domination, however, was qualitatively less comprehensive and consistent than Flash in 2010 and the conditions were never 'right' to call Jaedong a bonjwa.
This explains the great hesitation in labelling Flash a bonjwa in early to mid 2010, but yes as ore0z linked, by the end of the Korean Air Starleague 2, in September 2010, Flash had made his THIRD-IN-A-ROW. DOUBLE. MSL/OSL finals plus cleaning up everyone in proleague plus comprehensively beating the 6 dragons in T's hard matchup (Z>P, P>T, T>Z) over an extended period of time. Though some would argue as to whether it was the greatest 'ever', no-one disputed that it was the greatest since Savior's decline in 2007, a full three years prior.
The right conditions had been created.
As some people have stated, he might have been called 'God' by the Koreans - or bonjwa. If we disregard which of 'God' or 'bonjwa' he was called, at that point he had garnered more accomplishments than any other bonjwa that had come before him, and that was the important thing.
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On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary.
It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player.
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On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player.
It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb.
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On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb.
Should have went Guardians.
Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal.
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Saviour is the only bonjwa. The others we can call legends or something.
Bloody awesome article by the way!
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Does anyone know what's the reason players decline forever after their peak ?
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On August 02 2012 02:17 Apolo wrote:
Does anyone know what's the reason players decline forever after their peak ?
Primary reason: Other players catching up and younger and more talented guys outplaying you
Secondary: Military
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I would like to tell you as an English major that you have better English than most Americans. It was really impressive and until you said your native language was Korean, I didn't even notice! Thanks for the post, it was really informative!
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Its fitting that the mathematician who writes this thread is named djikstra, famous for his algorithm titled djikstra's algorithm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dijkstra's_algorithm. I myself prefer A star to his algorithm, but nonetheless he is an important fellow.
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United States10328 Posts
On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal.
Jaedong has a really hard time winning with guardians...
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What the hell! Every time I see the list of bonjwas I have only one question: Where is Jaedong!
Look at this graphics. I don't know the definitions, but as far as I understand bonjwa is who dominated through the era.
I remember when Jaedong was first who has more than 3000 points in the Kespa rank and made an absolute record 3460, while others had maximum 1700 I guess. He was number one zerg for more than 3 years. For those years there were so many great players, but he wins almost everything. He has so many records. So many times he was in the finals, semifinals I guess nobody has such records.
I think we should give Jaedong other status than bonjwa and higher ). Maybe something like Legend, The Greatest, Legendary Tyrant =)
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Forget bonjwa, Flash was called God right? Why isn't that not enough?
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On August 02 2012 03:33 JieXian wrote:
Forget bonjwa, Flash was called God right? Why isn't that not enough?
Actually, I am talking about Jaedong.
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if flash = god, doesn't that leave the bonjwa door open to jaedong? since people argued there can't be two bonjwas at the same time, they couldn't title jaedong or flash but since flash is god, jaedong is bonjwa. no?
boxer, nada, oov, savior, jaedong
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On August 02 2012 04:26 jinorazi wrote:
if flash = god, doesn't that leave the bonjwa door open to jaedong? since people argued there can't be two bonjwas at the same time, they couldn't title jaedong or flash but since flash is god, jaedong is bonjwa. no?
boxer, nada, oov, savior, jaedong
The 5 prophets and their God?
edit: hmm seems to diminish the others too much, disregard.
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i remember reading a long time ago back around the time bisu had just won his 3rd msl in 2008, that the term bonjwa was originated when koreans began to notice a strange pattern among the most dominant players in the game. the pattern shared only by nada, savior, and iloveoov was that they were able to win 3 msl's within a short period of time, and then win an OSL title immediately following the 3rd msl win. thus the term bonjwa was created for those exclusive players. back when bisu won his 3rd msl, everyone was talking about how he might become a bonjwa but then he choked on the following osl so he was never able to make it. for the same reasons thats probably why most koreans were hesitant to term flash and jaedong as bonjwas. not sure why people termed boxer as a bonjwa when he didnt fulfill those terms but i guess it may have been honorary title for the father of starcraft
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On August 02 2012 05:01 lFrost wrote:
i remember reading a long time ago back around the time bisu had just won his 3rd msl in 2008, that the term bonjwa was originated when koreans began to notice a strange pattern among the most dominant players in the game. the pattern shared only by nada, savior, and iloveoov was that they were able to win 3 msl's within a short period of time, and then win an OSL title immediately following the 3rd msl win. thus the term bonjwa was created for those exclusive players. back when bisu won his 3rd msl, everyone was talking about how he might become a bonjwa but then he choked on the following osl so he was never able to make it. for the same reasons thats probably why most koreans were hesitant to term flash and jaedong as bonjwas. not sure why people termed boxer as a bonjwa when he didnt fulfill those terms but i guess it may have been honorary title for the father of starcraft
Thanks for sharing, didn't know about that! Makes things more interesting and now I have a better understanding
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On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal.
Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash.
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Great post.
I'm a massive JD fan, but even I'd concede Flash was the last of the Bonjwas. Both players had the best rivalry in BW since Nada and Savior but Flash came out the better player in the end.
No one will ever beat Savior though.
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On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash.
Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
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On July 31 2012 21:48 rift wrote:This uses Glicko-2, which Trueskill is based on, and is the best rating system. Source is every game in TLPD. For those saying "but this is just based on win rates!", you are incorrect. Points fluctuate based on the score of the player beaten; i.e. OSL wins are typically of more value than beating up Proleague scrubs. Se how Bisu is the best player in the first half of 2007 despite having a worse record than Stork or Jaedong. GLICKO-2 also improves on Elo with the introduction of a reliability rating, which assesses the accuracy of a player's score depending how recently they've played games.
ive been looking for a glicko2 rating of starcraft players for a long time. Do you know where I can find more readable data of glicko starcraft ratings(both bw and sc2)?
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On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
They're too weak vs irradiate. That's your biggest problem with guards. An Ultralisk only costs 50 more gas and is far more cost effective in comparison.
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man this is sweet, i knew reading the title this would be a badass write-up!!
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On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
Gas is better invested into ultras imo, guardians just implode too easily from irradiate.
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On August 02 2012 10:57 Skwid1g wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. Gas is better invested into ultras imo, guardians just implode too easily from irradiate.
Build ONE at a time which is insignificance.
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They still die to one irradiate which is the problem. And given the high gas cost you're better off investing in ultra/defs. Guards are just too brittle for the late game when vessel counts are very high.
They can have decent situational use to defend expos in the mid to late game transition (as I think you alluded too previously) but beyond that you're not going to get a good return on your investment. But even then, I think defilers/lurkers do just a good a job for cheaper cost.
Guardians were good back in the day when quick 2 fact many tank builds were popular but their effectiveness has diminshed over time with metagame shifts.
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On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks.
You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage
I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well)
Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race..
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On August 02 2012 12:17 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well) Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race..
Dude, Guardians are like the a non useless version of Queens pre-broodling stage. And Queens have been utilized fairly a lot in fighting Mech. What is good about Guardians is that they have these incredible long range attacks that you can just bounce back and fourth between the bases by having like 4 of them. With it, you can probably not worry about any sort of drops that would ravage your econ that the usual Scourges would sometime miss and your multitask will fall behind if you are simply attempting to do some type of Defiler/Ling defense.
Plus it can used a lot to snipe HTs in Zerg vs Protoss by having them around a cliff when the P is marching toward your base.
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On August 01 2012 15:55 Mataza wrote:Actually, if Savior is being called a Bonjwa, then Jaedong and Flash might both be Bonjwas. Look at the length of Saviors dominance. It wasn´t very long, or clear. (Neither was iloveoov) It seems to me the title of Bonjwa was given to people who discovered a playstyle and dominated with it. That´s why Flash isn´t a Bonjwa, he is the ultimate weapon.
I think what you said is probably a great way of calling it. The Bonjwa's are all innovative to the point that they brought something unique and dominated with it because no one else did it or couldn't do it (at the time).
Perhaps...
Boxer -> Micromanagement of units
Iloveoov -> Macro/Builds
NaDa -> Mechanics/APM
Savior -> Deception/Feints (+ maybe he also added Unit Compositions by his ZvP Tech to Counter Tech innovation?)
Bisu -> Build Order/Unit Composition Wins? By de-throning Savior, did he simply move the metagame or do something special?
Flash -> Ultimate Weapon? (ie. Could do everything, and counter everything) Terran Turtle/Turret Ring + Double Armory etc?
Jaedong -> Another ultimate weapon? Muta-micro + Filling in the ZvP weakness of savior by adding the 6 hatch and 5 hatch hydra builds etc?
The rest, simply more ultimate weapons or close to ultimate weapons?
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On August 02 2012 12:28 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 12:17 GhostOwl wrote:On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well) Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race.. Dude, Guardians are like the a non useless version of Queens pre-broodling stage. And Queens have been utilized fairly a lot in fighting Mech. What is good about Guardians is that they have these incredible long range attacks that you can just bounce back and fourth between the bases by having like 4 of them. With it, you can probably not worry about any sort of drops that would ravage your econ that the usual Scourges would sometime miss and your multitask will fall behind if you are simply attempting to do some type of Defiler/Ling defense. Plus it can used a lot to snipe HTs in Zerg vs Protoss by having them around a cliff when the P is marching toward your base.
Errm, Queen pre-broodling stage comes BEFORE Guardian tech. Queens are better than Guardians at fighting mech because they're fast enough to escape wraiths / goliaths, they're spellcasters, meaning 1 spell = 1 tank death. You try killing a tank with 1 guardian and see if you can kill it before the guardian gets killed.
Besides, Broodling range is just as much as Wraiths if not more, and Queens cost way less gas.
You can put your guardians bounce back and forth, but by the time Terran realizes this, he'll build wraiths supported by MnM to protect it from scourges.
I would rather have Mutas to snipe out HTs than spend extra gas to get a slower unit to snipe the HTs.
Your logic is killing me bro.
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On August 02 2012 12:55 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 12:28 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 12:17 GhostOwl wrote:On August 02 2012 09:52 Xiphos wrote:On August 02 2012 09:14 GolemMadness wrote:On August 01 2012 23:55 Xiphos wrote:On August 01 2012 23:49 ymir233 wrote:On August 01 2012 16:35 GhostOwl wrote:On August 01 2012 12:15 Crisium wrote:
And Jaedong was helpless before Flash in the end. God > Jaedong > all.
TTT just can't express this dominance. Jaedong may have been second to Flash statistically by only a bit, but in late summer 2010 Flash was subjectively so much better it was scary. It's unfair to say Flash was so much better since, when they versed each other, it was a TvZ. Needless to talk about the nature of the MU, even though JD lost, the amount of resistance he put up playing as ZERG verse a TERRAN makes me feel like he was the better player. It's not even necessarily TvZ, it was actually the maps. Case in point: Bigfile MSL. Do you know how painful it was to see top Zergs like EffOrt and JD lose 50 units to like 3-5 nicely placed tanks on Triathlon, both on the ground and via drops? Pure mech wasn't even that innovative or the most-refined strategy during that period, and Zergs still got stomped to the curb. Should have went Guardians. Guardians must be the most underused unit in the Zerg arsenal. Guardians pretty much never work. Especially against Flash. Nah, Guards are the Zerg equivalence of Siege Tanks. A lot of pros just don't really know how to use it properly and just 1A2A3A into Marines when its suppose to be used Defensively and then as you strip away the MM forces with Ultra/Ling Defiler composition, what is left over are the Tanks which Guards can clean up. A lot of players will commit really hard with them by sacing all map control. You are suppose to build them up slowly just like Siege Tanks. You kidding? Tanks are acquired much earlier tier, cost way less gas, require way less time to make, faster movement speed, does splash damage, isn't destroyed by 1 irradiate, and does more than double the damage I'm not comparing unit for unit, I'm just saying that Guards are NOT the Zerg equivalent of Siege Tanks. Siege tanks are good for Terrans in all matchups, while Guard is pretty useless for Zerg in all matchups except for TvZ (and that is situational as well) Please don't say the best unit for the game of the best race is equivalent of worst (ok maybe not worst) unit game of a weaker race.. Dude, Guardians are like the a non useless version of Queens pre-broodling stage. And Queens have been utilized fairly a lot in fighting Mech. What is good about Guardians is that they have these incredible long range attacks that you can just bounce back and fourth between the bases by having like 4 of them. With it, you can probably not worry about any sort of drops that would ravage your econ that the usual Scourges would sometime miss and your multitask will fall behind if you are simply attempting to do some type of Defiler/Ling defense. Plus it can used a lot to snipe HTs in Zerg vs Protoss by having them around a cliff when the P is marching toward your base. Errm, Queen pre-broodling stage comes BEFORE Guardian tech. Queens are better than Guardians at fighting mech because they're fast enough to escape wraiths / goliaths, they're spellcasters, meaning 1 spell = 1 tank death. You try killing a tank with 1 guardian and see if you can kill it before the guardian gets killed. Besides, Broodling range is just as much as Wraiths if not more, and Queens cost way less gas. You can put your guardians bounce back and forth, but by the time Terran realizes this, he'll build wraiths supported by MnM to protect it from scourges. I would rather have Mutas to snipe out HTs than spend extra gas to get a slower unit to snipe the HTs. Your logic is killing me bro.
The reason why queens are also used is because you can queue the broodling commands + retreat commands without significant difference in micro abilities, plus trading a queen for a tank is more cost-effective in terms of minerals. But anyways, enough queens and you leave yourself vulnerable to stuff like fantasy's wraiths. The point is that late-game mech has no real definitive answer in terms of composition, other than "play it by ear" and "sneak in more expos so you can kill T before he gets a big enough DMZ/deathball".
In one of the first instances of standard late mech transition games on Bloody Ridge in SPL, played by BaBy, Killer used a very nice guardian timing to destroy the bio army and then walk right in while BaBy was stopping bio production to transition into mass facts (I think this was why the advent of mass-vulture during the transition came forth; Flash, for instance, kept producing marines along with 4-7 facts worth of vultures until he got on 4-5 gases, then fully transitioned into mech). However, more than even irradiate, I think guardians are simply weak against anti-air in general and too immobile to do something akin to the hydra-muta switch-it-up game against tank-goliaths.
Disregarding late-mech transitions and its timings, pure mech was relatively easy to stop as long as the Z was smart enough to keep the T on 2 gases, MAAAYBE 3 gases max (just like an aggressive ZvP). That plus either snipe the tanks early on with upgraded mutas before the T pushes, or have defilers out and good army spread when the T does push. On Destination, for example, a T's mech was easily contained and smashed (as seen by JD's games vs Flash/Skyhigh). However, on places like Triathlon, where AI pathing and random ledges where tanks could shoot hydras walking in a line were readily available, once a Terran snuck a third in or spammed enough vultures + mines to prevent the hydras from getting in before the tanks were set up, it was effectively over.
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On August 02 2012 03:37 Prince_Stranger wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2012 03:33 JieXian wrote:
Forget bonjwa, Flash was called God right? Why isn't that not enough? Actually, I am talking about Jaedong.
lol I wasn't referring to anyone specific. Especially since I didn't quote you.
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EPT
