Note: This happened during the same day as the incident, so the penalties against the referee had not been levied yet. Coach Lee from KT Rolster recounts his experience during the referee fiasco
* I think the question was printed wrong between the first 2 questions so i swapped them Q: Why did you apply for an interview? A: A discontent / disagreement at the referee can not be publicized, if there is dissatisfaction it should be discussed afterwards. Under these rules I wasn't going to talk about it before, but I think that this time the issue can't just be glanced over, so I applied for an interview. I know that the commitee and referees are all very dillegent and hard working, but for eSports to progress, referees must make the correct judgements that if not satisfies at least convinces everyone.
Q: Why did (you allow them) they give a regame then? A: Since they already gave the decision of continuing the match, I don't think they should have changed that decision to regame. And also if you were to change the decision it should have been to give the side with the advantage the win. To us when a referee gives a regame the referee should take all responsibility, but I'm not sure how that responsibility could be handled. If the regame was lost (by flash), then (the player's) mentality would be affected greatly, so I feel that the referee should have been punished as a consequence of the responsibility that he had.
Q: What's the point that you want to make? A: Before during a preliminaries, one of our players also experienced the same problem. The mutalisks couldn't be grouped, so he asked for a pause, but it (our player) was given an immediate loss. Just thinking about it makes me feel frustrated, that referee judged completely differently. Today's situation is a bit different, but I also didn't think that they would give a re-game. There needs to be a solid standard, I'm very suspicious about rather the committee (kespa) has trained referees properly, rather the referees are qualified.
Q: The referee says that he will handle the responsibility (fall out) A: As to how referees are punished we are not told (don't know anything). This time they also said that the referee himself will handle the responsibility, how the committee (kespa) handles it is hard to say. Events like this might happen again, I hope that the situation today doesn't occur again.
Q: Hery[Hyo] assistant coach was expelled from the stage for standing up against the referee A: If you stand up / argue with the referee for no valid reason / argument you should be expelled from the stage, that part is fine. But under this situation we can only forfeit / strike against the match. Good thing that Flash's mentality was very stable, so he played well.
Q: Anything else you want to say? A: Had Flash lost in the rematch, then this situation might have escaladed even more, after the match I also talked with coach January, she also thought that the game should have been awarded win/loss (win to flash) based on game advantage. as to what criterias referees use to issue a re-match I really want to know. This decision for a rematch must be followed up with consequences for the referee's responsibility.
First of all, Shine was at slight fault by not setting his shit up properly. Secondly, if there was already a precedent (AKA the power outage incident) to give the game to the winning side (and holy fuck, Shine's mutas were getting wrecked by turrets, MnM near the rax, and a force coming back up the main ramp that could have wiped the mutas by themselves, not to mention the entire lack of ling support...or economy, not to mention Shine's clear "hit-or-miss" style of engagements in that set), then the game definitely should have gone to Flash...such a goddamn shame he had to go through this.
My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
All of Shine's builds were aggressive gimmicks meant to steal games off Flash with luck. I don't buy that Shine, a progamer, did not get set up properly in an OSL ro8 match against Flash. There's no way that actually happened. Even if it did, Shine could have paused the game when his first mutas spawned if they weren't grouping properly. Not after Flash barely defends and Shine in a moment lost all of his mutas.
Yes it is ultimately the referee's decision to regame, but the timing of the pause was too convenient. Shine can go leave progaming there isn't enough room left for people like that.
On June 30 2012 05:48 Sinensis wrote: My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
All of Shine's builds were aggressive gimmicks meant to steal games off Flash with luck. I don't buy that Shine, a progamer, did not get set up properly in an OSL ro8 match against Flash. There's no way that actually happened. Even if it did, Shine could have paused the game when his first mutas spawned if they weren't grouping properly. Not after Flash barely defends and Shine in a moment lost all of his mutas.
Yes it is ultimately the referee's decision to regame, but the timing of the pause was too convenient. Shine can go leave progaming there isn't enough room left for people like that.
Shit happens during matches . Your mouse or keyboard could malfunction while you micro your mutas against marines / turrets and you can lose the game instantly. If Shine experienced a malfunction from the hardware/software during the game he has every right to request a pause to the game . Flash has also done it in the past in the OSL finals against Effort when he lost his valkyries to scourge when he supposedly fucked up his monitor (it was Flash's fault for pulling the plug on his monitor with his legs , and regame was given , Effort lost his advantages situation and the element of surprise from the strategy he used . Effort's mouse also supposedly malfunctioned in the tiebreaker in the OSL group stages when he was microing his mutas and lost a battle against Shine and Shine got the same situation as Flash did right now -regame . It takes 1 or 2 seconds of hardware/software failure to lose key units and be in an unwinnable position or at severe disadvantage and at that point pauseing the game always looks fishy in the eyes of the spectators . Shine is geting a lot more shit from it then players like Flash and Effort , because they somehow have the benefit of the doubt , because they are having better results and/or are more popular .
The so called mental disadvantage after a call in a game were the player was feeling in a comfortable situation is also a load of bullshit . If a game is paused the player should expect any possible outcome and take the word from the referee like a man be it right or wrong . Same like all sports when the referees make a tough decision be it right or wrong , the losing player or team could either feel like they are robed and lose or forget about it and play their best . And this is the only thing i hate about Flash as a player that he always seems to feel robed after a decision while players like Jaedong/Effort/Shine take it with a grain of salt and continue without bitching about it , but i guess thats also because he takes his job really seriously and is part why he is the best player ever but still i am not a fan of it .
It's also pathetic how some of you guys perceive all - ins and cheeses probably influenced from people like Idra . Shine's style is aggressive and he choose those builds specifically for the maps incorporated with his style . Shine plays to his advantages , why would he choose to play standart against Flash and be at disadvantage . Cheeses and all - ins are not a coin flip like a lot of people here thinks . It depends a lot on the skills to execute and defend them and also the mind games behind them .
This comment reminds me of the July vs Best OSL finals where people were like July can't win in a macro game and he doesn't deserve his wins , but guess what if you can "steal" games your whole career up to a golden mouse then why not ?
On June 30 2012 05:48 Sinensis wrote: My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
All of Shine's builds were aggressive gimmicks meant to steal games off Flash with luck. I don't buy that Shine, a progamer, did not get set up properly in an OSL ro8 match against Flash. There's no way that actually happened. Even if it did, Shine could have paused the game when his first mutas spawned if they weren't grouping properly. Not after Flash barely defends and Shine in a moment lost all of his mutas.
Yes it is ultimately the referee's decision to regame, but the timing of the pause was too convenient. Shine can go leave progaming there isn't enough room left for people like that.
but..shine is always aggressive, thats just how he plays.
On June 30 2012 05:48 Sinensis wrote: My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
But Kespa said that the ref was wrong and made the wrong decision. If the right decision was awarding the game to Flash, how would Shine trying to cheat in the way you suggest even make any sense?
IMHO, a bad situation made worse by an incompetent ref. The 45 min wait alone is inexcusable.
On June 30 2012 07:21 raga4ka wrote: Shit happens during matches . Your mouse or keyboard could malfunction while you micro your mutas against marines / turrets and you can lose the game instantly. If Shine experienced a malfunction from the hardware/software during the game he has every right to request a pause to the game . Flash has also done it in the past in the OSL finals against Effort when he lost his valkyries to scourge when he supposedly fucked up his monitor (it was Flash's fault for pulling the plug on his monitor with his legs , and regame was given , Effort lost his advantages situation and the element of surprise from the strategy he used . Effort's mouse also supposedly malfunctioned in the tiebreaker in the OSL group stages when he was microing his mutas and lost a battle against Shine and Shine got the same situation as Flash did right now -regame . It takes 1 or 2 seconds of hardware/software failure to lose key units and be in an unwinnable position or at severe disadvantage and at that point pauseing the game always looks fishy in the eyes of the spectators . Shine is geting a lot more shit from it then players like Flash and Effort , because they somehow have the benefit of the doubt , because they are having better results and/or are more popular .
Yeah, looking at it from that angle, Shine is kind of getting hate due to how unpopular he is even before the incident. The guy deserves benefit of the doubt. I could be wrong but no one really has a complete idea of what the "error" Shine complained about was all about. So we can't even prove or even have any intelligent arguments about the accusation that Shine knew about the error but waited until the game was unwinnable before complaining about it.
On June 30 2012 07:21 raga4ka wrote: The so called mental disadvantage after a call in a game were the player was feeling in a comfortable situation is also a load of bullshit . If a game is paused the player should expect any possible outcome and take the word from the referee like a man be it right or wrong . Same like all sports when the referees make a tough decision be it right or wrong , the losing player or team could either feel like they are robed and lose or forget about it and play their best . And this is the only thing i hate about Flash as a player that he always seems to feel robed after a decision while players like Jaedong/Effort/Shine take it with a grain of salt and continue without bitching about it , but i guess thats also because he takes his job really seriously and is part why he is the best player ever but still i am not a fan of it .
To be fair, I can't see how such tough decisions can just be shrugged off so easily. All players would feel the same way. In interviews, they just express their opinions in different ways. Some would barely talk about it. Some, like Flash, choose to say something about it (or as you put it, bitch about it). I agree that keeping your composure after a bad referee decision is important. But isn't that what Flash did? He was obviously distraught but managed to pull off the win. I believe the opinions he expressed about the referee decision afterwards is another matter. If he felt that the decision was wrong, then he simply expressed that. And from what I read in his interviews, the bulk of his "bitching" has always been more about the way the situation was handled (asinine demeanor of referees, lengthy delay) instead of the actual decision. Even in the power outage incident, it was the same thing. He said that in his own point of view, he was at a decent position before the power went out (obviously, some people disagree but that is another discussion). And then he complained about how badly the situation was handled. Moreover, he did say that "players have been mentioning such issues for some time now. I hope what needs to be changed and improved can be addressed". Either that is a flat out lie or Flash is simply using this opportunity to voice out what everyone else has been "bitching" about.
On June 30 2012 07:21 raga4ka wrote: It's also pathetic how some of you guys perceive all - ins and cheeses probably influenced from people like Idra . Shine's style is aggressive and he choose those builds specifically for the maps incorporated with his style . Shine plays to his advantages , why would he choose to play standart against Flash and be at disadvantage . Cheeses and all - ins are not a coin flip like a lot of people here thinks . It depends a lot on the skills to execute and defend them and also the mind games behind them .
This comment reminds me of the July vs Best OSL finals where people were like July can't win in a macro game and he doesn't deserve his wins , but guess what if you can "steal" games your whole career up to a golden mouse then why not ?
The truth is, cheeses do require less skill. Some cheeses more so than others. Some to the degree that a D player on ICCUP can execute them. I guess Shine is getting hate for his cheeses/all-ins because people like it better when cheeses/all-ins are made for mind game purposes (July vs Best). People don't like it when a player cheeses because he doesn't really have any other hope of winning and just tries to make the game as much of a coin flip as possible. And yes, cheese can really make a game a coin flip. Although in my opinion, not all of shine's cheeses in the series made it a coin flip (or maybe some more than the others). And for the record, I was impressed by how Shine played to the extent that I was wondering why zergs didn't do this more often in ZvT. I mean, the games flash won (including the botched game 2 but excluding game 4) were really tight. If these strategies could push Flash to the edge, why not use them on other Terrans? I guess the obvious answer is that they feel they can win without resorting to these methods (which, can backfire on them) if the Terran isn't Flash. The games were also, for me, a huge slap in the face to zergs complaining that they don't have any strategic options when playing ZvT.
On June 27 2012 12:25 uriel- wrote: Edit (update):
It seems the referee responsible for the decision has been fined 500k won and barred from refereeing for the remainder of the OSL. KesPA convened some emergency meeting and agreed that a bad call was made, and an apology has been issued to KT, KT's coach Lee, Flash, Samsung Khan and Khan's head coach January.
On June 28 2012 01:36 nonsequitur wrote: Woah, a fine just for a bad call? I would say that's uncalled (pun unintended) for. You do not see referees having to pay fines out of their own pocket when they make a bad call in sports. The worst that could happen is that they never referee the rest of the tournament or get fired, but never fined.
KESPA should have either just stopped using him for the rest of the tournament or fire him.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.plu.cn/d/file/sc/note/2012-06-28/9e2b4f3b2e2c03b6f17f789aa07171b3.jpg)
Flash's mentality was very stable, so he played well.
