On June 28 2012 00:39 s.Q.uelched wrote: Why exactly did Shine pp for? It seemed to me like his mouse stopped working.
The KeSPA referee took 3 full seconds to pause the game after pp was called. Not that it mattered anymore in that situation, but how hard is it to F10-P? Jesus.
IMHO if that bullshit didn't happen Shine would have won the 2nd game n then it could have gone 3-2 either way easily. I'm very very disappointed.
Honest question: Isn't what Shine has done just blatant cheating or if you want to call it that way a bug/rules abuse?
What if his ridiculous Muta all-in had miraculously worked by somehow catching Flash off-guard? Then he certainly wouldn't have pped. To me this is flat out cheating.
On June 28 2012 05:05 quien wrote: lol flash knocked out shine, kespa and the referee. a true god.
man coming from sc2 and hearing about how tough kespa is i'm wondering if this is truly the first time they've stood up to this type of thing. I hate overbearing organizations like kespa. feels so constricting.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
On June 28 2012 05:05 quien wrote: lol flash knocked out shine, kespa and the referee. a true god.
man coming from sc2 and hearing about how tough kespa is i'm wondering if this is truly the first time they've stood up to this type of thing. I hate overbearing organizations like kespa. feels so constricting.
sure, i feel the same way, and that's the reason i'm glad because i think this is the first time that kespa pay attention to a complaining of this kind. flash is a clever person and the only player who speaks his mind no matter what, and his status and the support of kt and coach lee gave him the weigh to make it real.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
I think you need to add that there are also various bug-exploits that let's you do the same thing. However these are forbidden under KeSPA rules, and grounds for disqualification. I'm pretty sure what Flash was referring to was that Shine's team apparantly asked for the referee's to check if Flash's manouver was legit, which it was as rigth-clicking minerals is a legal way to mineral walk.
I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
I think you need to add that there are also various bug-exploits that let's you do the same thing. However these are forbidden under KeSPA rules, and grounds for disqualification. I'm pretty sure what Flash was referring to was that Shine's team apparantly asked for the referee's to check if Flash's manouver was legit, which it was as rigth-clicking minerals is a legal way to mineral walk.
I was merely explaining what seemed to have happened in game as that seemed to be the question. I have checked the vod myself, you can see the scv leaving the main mineral line about this moment when flash has vision of the main mineral line and you can follow the route it takes on the minimap :
You are obviously right though, there are illegal ways to achieve this (the return cargo bug I believe) and I find perfectly normal that Shine/Khan asked the referee to check that Flash did not use them.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
I think you need to add that there are also various bug-exploits that let's you do the same thing. However these are forbidden under KeSPA rules, and grounds for disqualification. I'm pretty sure what Flash was referring to was that Shine's team apparantly asked for the referee's to check if Flash's manouver was legit, which it was as rigth-clicking minerals is a legal way to mineral walk.
I was merely explaining what seemed to have happened in game as that seemed to be the question. I have checked the vod myself, you can see the scv leaving the main mineral line about this moment when flash has vision of the main mineral line and you can follow the route it takes on the minimap : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8V1f03_9jw&feature=player_detailpage#t=439s You are obviously right though, there are illegal ways to achieve this (the return cargo bug I believe) and I find perfectly normal that Shine/Khan asked the referee to check that Flash did not use them.
Shift-right click the mineral while it's in vision of the other SCV. Perfectly legal.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
I wonder what it feels like to be focused on a game so much (given that it is your career) and then have to wait around for 45 minutes.
It reminds me of some pro tennis matches in which one player gets injured putting the other player in a mental disadvantage upon resumption of the match. I wonder what was going through Flash's head. Didn't seem to matter to god though.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
Maybe Shine knew that the rules had changed and state that in case of an error from Kespa side there would be a regame? Maybe he maneuvered into a big engagement from where it would be difficult to continue after a pause?
I seriously lack knowledge about the Kespa rules here. So yeah, I know that I am a bit on the speculative side with why the regame would be a safe bet. But the TIMING of the pp is just far too extreme to be a coincidence, no way I believe that. I am convinced that Shine knew before his Muta all-in that something was off but instead of immediately pp'ing when he noticed the error he waited until he was in an unwinnable position (thus maximizing his odds).
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
Maybe Shine knew that the rules had changed and state that in case of an error from Kespa side there would be a regame? Maybe he maneuvered into a big engagement from where it would be difficult to continue after a pause?
I seriously lack knowledge about the Kespa rules here. So yeah, I know that I am a bit on the speculative side with why the regame would be a safe bet. But the TIMING of the pp is just far too extreme to be a coincidence, no way I believe that. I am convinced that Shine knew before his Muta all-in that something was off but instead of immediately pp'ing when he noticed the error he waited until he was in an unwinnable position (thus maximizing his odds).
That makes no sense. Wouldn't it be minimizing his odds? If it is unwinnable situation referees could have easily declared a victory for Flash, but if something wrong went from begining there are more chances that refs would call a regame. And I highly doubt Shine would risk to continue a game if something is wrong from begining, esspecially if it is from technical side.
On June 28 2012 00:39 s.Q.uelched wrote: Why exactly did Shine pp for? It seemed to me like his mouse stopped working.
The KeSPA referee took 3 full seconds to pause the game after pp was called. Not that it mattered anymore in that situation, but how hard is it to F10-P? Jesus.
IMHO if that bullshit didn't happen Shine would have won the 2nd game n then it could have gone 3-2 either way easily. I'm very very disappointed.
Why would Shine have won that game?
It seemed to me like his mouse stopped working. You actually think he was chilling his muta's just before the pp there on purpose? I don't. Flash might have had better eco, but Shine had superior numbers and Flash wasn't even close to getting irradiate or valks.
Trying to be as less biased as possible, I think Flash had an advantage in the game (before Shine suicided his mutas), not 100% won, maybe 70-75% but did have a good advantage. Shine was not dead cause he still had mutas and Flash was not close to irradiate, but honestly it was just a matter of time for Flash to win by being just Flash and he had already stabilized. Giving Shine the benefit of the doubt i would say he tried to pick off a turret and his mouse stopped working hence his mutas got stuck and he couldnt move them away from the marines/turrets, so he requested for a pp.
I thought they would regame long before they gave a decision because at this point it was either a) giving Flash the win (which i didnt think they would if they had the continue option), b) continue (unfair to Shine because his "mouse problems" (here i am also siding with him) would have give him a disadvantage and it was pretty much giving the win to Flash (cause at this point Shine was 100% dead). and c) regame (would screw Flash and help Shine). Maybe a regame would screw Flash less than giving a win to Flash would screw Shine.
In hind sight and reading other comments i would probably say giving Flash the win would have been better, but honestly its a really hard decision to make (giving again Shine all bias and that he was not at fault for anything, with a ton of optimism that he could turn the game around) If Shine, as mentioned, did not check his equipment, i think Flash should have been given the win.
Effort did the exact same thing to Shine during the tiebreakers in an OSL (the one Effort won from Flash). I guess Shine decided to try that trick out.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
Maybe Shine knew that the rules had changed and state that in case of an error from Kespa side there would be a regame? Maybe he maneuvered into a big engagement from where it would be difficult to continue after a pause?
I seriously lack knowledge about the Kespa rules here. So yeah, I know that I am a bit on the speculative side with why the regame would be a safe bet. But the TIMING of the pp is just far too extreme to be a coincidence, no way I believe that. I am convinced that Shine knew before his Muta all-in that something was off but instead of immediately pp'ing when he noticed the error he waited until he was in an unwinnable position (thus maximizing his odds).
That makes no sense. Wouldn't it be minimizing his odds? If it is unwinnable situation referees could have easily declared a victory for Flash, but if something wrong went from begining there are more chances that refs would call a regame. And I highly doubt Shine would risk to continue a game if something is wrong from begining, esspecially if it is from technical side.
To clear up some false informations: the game was 100% won for Flash when Shine typed pp. Not 99%, not 95% and certainly not 70-75 %. Flash passing out was the only theoretical option for a win. The Mutalisk fight in Flash's main was lost. There were 3-4 Turrets and a bunch of M&M shredding his poor Mutas. Retreating was also not an option because he had nothing to fall back to. It was an all-in and the point of a possible transition was long gone. He was still on 2 Hatches! Shine looked like he had something because he kept his supply artificially high by not investing into any tech or economy but he had no drones and most importantly no freaking larva.
I don't know why there was a regame because that game was without a doubt over but I really would like to know. Has their policy changed after the massive criticism on their JD-Flash decision? Did Shine know that there would be a regame when they screw up his settings? I would really like the help of one of our Koreans here to clear up the rules situation!
Because IF Shine knew that there would be a regame then it would be maximizing his odds to go for one more all-in. Like he did. He flew his clump of Mutas over the heavily fortified Barracks. If he somehow had won that engagement by catching Flash offguard he could have won the game by having control over Flash's production. But as soon as he realized that he couldn't win the fight he pp'ed out and then there was a regame.
EPT
