27/6 OSL Ro8 Match C Interview with Flash: 4 titles are a must! Referees need to change their attitude
Thoughts on entering the final 4? > I'm definitely glad. With just 2 opponents remaining, I need to put on a must-win mentality and play with even greater competitiveness.
Although the score was 3:1, there was a rematch that caused some delay > It is really disappointing that such things can happen in the last OSL. I was really angry. Shine apologized to me, but what made me angry was the referee. I think Shine was a victim as well so I hope he does not feel the need to be apologetic about it.
Were you flustered by the decision to have a rematch? > Definitely. It wasted so much time. I felt this was 100% the mistake of the organizers, yet they just rid themselves of all responsibility and simply ordered a rematch. There was not a hint of apology despite them being at fault, and they were constantly using a demanding tone as well. If they would just admit their mistake and offer a simple apology the atmosphere would not have been so horrible. Also, this is not the first time that something like this has happened, and the players have been mentioning such issues for some time now. I hope what needs to be changed and improved can be addressed.
You looked extremely emotional during the incident, how did you face the remaining matches? > Assistant coach Hery and the head coach came to help me calm my mental state and focus on the match. They told be that it was definitely a bad call and that I had to win. That made me really want to finish the match.
Talk of the rematch aside, you got hit by a proxy Nydus Canal > I have not performed well on that map during practice either. When I saw the Nydus Canal I thought it was such an impressive strategy, I wanted to applaud Shine for it.
The SCV scout in match 1 turned out to be crucial > I'm not sure if people think that was a bug, basically I right clicked a mineral patch to scout. After the first match KHAN requested a check and both the referee and the observer verified it.
Impressively, you managed to discover the burrowed Zerglings in the final set > It's a key aspect of my play, a "sense" to put it in words. If I sense that something seems off, I scan. I was quite confused at first when I saw his army strength. It was a good match for me.
Your TvZ streak stops at 15. > I felt I was capable of a 20 streak, but sadly I was sniped. Though disappointing, I've already mentioned in the SPL interview that I'm not too concerned about streaks, so it's alright. Compared to streaks, grabbing the 4th title is the most important thing.
How do you feel about the 4th title? > I must have it. It's not just the fans that want it, but I myself. I hope everyone will look forward to my performance. Also, with the rematch decision today, coach Hery left the grounds in protest. When the head coach heard of this, he rushed to the studio despite being in the middle of shifting apartments. Same for assistant coach Lee and many of the staff, so thank you to everyone for the support. Finally, thanks to all the Zergs who helped me with practice.
Edit:
On June 27 2012 12:45 doothegee wrote: Hery didn't leave in protest, he got ejected by the referees.
Thanks doothegee. From the interview (in Chinese) my understanding is that Flash said Hery left in protest, so it could be a mistranslation on my part, the Chinese site's part, or maybe Flash misunderstood the situation.
Thought this might be interesting, since no one has translated it yet and the match had quite a bit of drama to it. Do point out any mistakes I might have made
EDIT: Background on the rematch incident for people who didn't watch:
In match 2 Shine went for a 2-hatch ling aggression into low-economy Mutas, which left very little room for a transition if it failed to do enough damage. Flash looked to have stabilized with 2 well saturated bases, a wall of turrets and climbing tech versus a techless, drone-deficient Shine. At the point where it looked to be do or die for Shine (who from my point of view already had nearly no chance), he flew his Mutas in to suicide and then requested a pause, citing hardware failure. The referees did a check and decided that it was due to Shine not checking his settings before the game, and that the game should resume from the pause with no regame (almost guaranteeing Flash the win).
However, there was a problem with the save file or something and it turned out that a resume was not possible. Thus there was no choice but to have a regame, from a position that Flash was heavily favored to win after barely holding off the early aggression. The entire incident took about an hour or more to resolve (I didn't keep track). I'm not entirely sure why there was a problem of corrupted saves. Note: the above is my understanding of the situation from watching it live + LR thread comments. If I got any facts wrong please correct me thanks.
Edit (update):
It seems the referee responsible for the decision has been fined 500k won and barred from refereeing for the remainder of the OSL. KesPA convened some emergency meeting and agreed that a bad call was made, and an apology has been issued to KT, KT's coach Lee, Flash, Samsung Khan and Khan's head coach January.
So what did Flash want? A better attempt at judging whether or not Flash was definitively ahead in the game before whatever malfunction it was happened? I assume that's what he means?
On June 27 2012 12:39 MountainDewJunkie wrote: So what did Flash want? A better attempt at judging whether or not Flash was definitively ahead in the game before whatever malfunction it was happened? I assume that's what he means?
What went wrong : 1) The whole thing took 45mins to get solved. 2) They first decided to warn Shine and to resume the game. Apparently they made a save but it somehow did not work anymore. Wtf ? 3) After 2) happened, there's no way they should not give the win to Flash. Instead they chose to regame somehow.
On June 27 2012 12:45 doothegee wrote: Hery didn't leave in protest, he got ejected by the referees.
Thanks doothegee. From the interview (in Chinese) my understanding is that Flash said Hery left in protest, so it could be a mistranslation on my part, the Chinese site's part, or maybe Flash misunderstood the situation. Edited into the OP.
On June 27 2012 12:47 Caihead wrote: *achoo* can i add this to the interview compilation thread?
Oh sure, I wasn't aware there was a thread for this. Sorry if I stole your interview, lol.
On June 27 2012 12:45 doothegee wrote: Hery didn't leave in protest, he got ejected by the referees.
Thanks doothegee. From the interview (in Chinese) my understanding is that Flash said Hery left in protest, so it could be a mistranslation on my part, the Chinese site's part, or maybe Flash misunderstood the situation. Edited into the OP.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
On June 27 2012 12:39 MountainDewJunkie wrote: So what did Flash want? A better attempt at judging whether or not Flash was definitively ahead in the game before whatever malfunction it was happened? I assume that's what he means?
What went wrong : 1) The whole thing took 45mins to get solved. 2) They first decided to warn Shine and to resume the game. Apparently they made a save but it somehow did not work anymore. Wtf ? 3) After 2) happened, there's no way they should not give the win to Flash. Instead they chose to regame somehow.
The reason the save file did not work was because Shine's settings were wrong so he changed the settings, this made the save file crash because the settings were different. I'm sure the blackout incident was on Flash's mind when he was being interviewed. For those who are not familiar, there was a Flash vs Jaedong MSL finals game where Jaedong had a commanding lead then the power went out, ruling out the ability to restart from a save file. The referee's decision at that time was to award Jaedong the win.
On June 27 2012 13:26 S2Glow wrote: i am pretty sure flash is not heavily favored on game 2. just a slight advantage and anything can happen , supply counts just +- 10.
the problem was where the supply was, shine was heavily drone deficient so his supply is unable to increase at the same rate as flash. Most of shine's supply was devoted to his mutas which were unable to do damage because of the turrets (also he suicided them)
Thanks for the interview! Was an entertaining series, even despite the "incident". That's kinda funny coach Henry got dejected hahaha. Sounds like he must have been being a good coach and sticking up for Flash
On June 27 2012 13:26 S2Glow wrote: i am pretty sure flash is not heavily favored on game 2. just a slight advantage and anything can happen , supply counts just +- 10.
the problem was where the supply was, shine was heavily drone deficient so his supply is unable to increase at the same rate as flash. Most of shine's supply was devoted to his mutas which were unable to do damage because of the turrets (also he suicided them)
yeah i know, flash have the advantage but is not over yet which mean not heavily favored. well i thought he have problem with his computer thats why he didnt micro his mutalisk. hmm , if he did intend to suicide with his muta then is gg for him lol
On June 27 2012 13:26 S2Glow wrote: i am pretty sure flash is not heavily favored on game 2. just a slight advantage and anything can happen , supply counts just +- 10.
the problem was where the supply was, shine was heavily drone deficient so his supply is unable to increase at the same rate as flash. Most of shine's supply was devoted to his mutas which were unable to do damage because of the turrets (also he suicided them)
yeah i know, flash have the advantage but is not over yet which mean not heavily favored. well i thought he have problem with his computer thats why he didnt micro his mutalisk. hmm , if he did intend to suicide with his muta then is gg for him lol
Actually I think Flash was heavily favored. To the point that I feel I could've won the game from there.
Shine had two options. Continue to pump mutalisks and hope Flash makes a mistake (moves out too early and loses marines unnecessarily)- to partially level the game.
Or transition into drones. During which time, he would be unable to stop Flash from moving out and rolling him.
At no point in the next 5-10 minutes, could he conceivably hurt Flash's economy or tech tree, and without a matching economy, the game was almost certainly lost.
It seems the referee responsible for the decision has been fined 500k won and barred from refereeing for the remainder of the OSL. KesPA convened some emergency meeting and agreed that a bad call was made, and an apology has been issued to KT, KT's coach Lee, Flash, Samsung Khan and Khan's head coach January.
On June 27 2012 20:44 uriel- wrote: It seems the referee responsible for the decision has been fined 50k won and barred from refereeing for the remainder of the OSL. KesPA convened some emergency meeting and agreed that a bad call was made, and an apology has been issued to KT, KT's coach Lee, Flash, Samsung Khan and Khan's head coach January.
KeSPA started an emergency referee committee meeting on the 27th, and discussed matters regarding the pause and judgement (re-judgement) in the game between Flash and Shine on the 26th in the Tving OSL, and has admitted that the referee responsible (Woo ?) had made mistakes in his judgement.
Referee Woo had decided at the time that "the match could be continued after bring out (loading) the save", but then immediately after because the save file didn't respond and encountered technical problems, he thought that continuing the match would be too difficult, so he announced a re-game.
Kespa elevated the issue and had a committee discuss the event, Referee Woo said "When Shine requested a pause it was possible to give Flash the win, but since the match was already announced to continue, giving Flash the win at that point seemed unreasonable."
But the referee committee thinks, that since a save file problem was confirmed, the game could not be continued, so it should have been judged as a disconnect, so the game would have been paused again, and at this point giving a player the win was more opportune. The referee has also personally apologized on his social medias, saying "There is responsibility with making a judgement call, it's because (I) of following the decision that changes to the rules (ruling) can't be made."
After that, the Kespa committee admitted that the referee made a wrong judgement, and there existed problems of not exposing / making public the details of the event, not making a thorough judgement call, and other problems. As such, the committee fined Referee Woo 500,000 won, and removed him from the referee roster of this OSL.
The committee has also apologized to Team KT Rolster / Samsung Khan, Flash, and main coaches Lee and January.
I feel sorry for the referee; it was a tough call to make and anyone a bit inexperienced in that situation could easily have made the same call as he did. His punishment seems a bit harsh.
On June 27 2012 21:06 Birdie wrote: I feel sorry for the referee; it was a tough call to make and anyone a bit inexperienced in that situation could easily have made the same call as he did. His punishment seems a bit harsh.
yea 500,000 won? i guess flash's say really has some weight
Thanks for the interview. Really happy to see Flash has got his eye on the prize. Hope he puts SC2 on hold for it.
The regame was pretty bad for Shine too, since he prepared an aggressive strategy. He was in a bad situation, but having the game pause right when his muta were under severe fire... That sucks a lot. I guess he didn't have any mouse control or he wouldn't have done that.
I'm surprised they fined the referee tho. Fire or suspend, ok, but fine him money? I didn't know you could do that if you weren't a court lol... I have to admit it was a hard situation for him and obviously influenced by Flash's grievances to his attitude. You really can't be rude to star players like that.
On June 27 2012 21:15 Birdie wrote: The fine isn't that much (if I did my conversion right, it's about $500) but firing him is a bit steep in my opinion.
i think you'll find its actually much less than that, 50k won is closer to $50. So not a big fine at all, just a symbolic thing i guess.
On June 27 2012 21:13 Chef wrote: Thanks for the interview. Really happy to see Flash has got his eye on the prize. Hope he puts SC2 on hold for it.
The regame was pretty bad for Shine too, since he prepared an aggressive strategy. He was in a bad situation, but having the game pause right when his muta were under severe fire... That sucks a lot. I guess he didn't have any mouse control or he wouldn't have done that.
I'm surprised they fined the referee tho. Fire or suspend, ok, but fine him money? I didn't know you could do that if you weren't a court lol... I have to admit it was a hard situation for him and obviously influenced by Flash's grievances to his attitude. You really can't be rude to star players like that.
Indeed, it also feels strange that they did it. Who's getting the money? The only one that would make sense would be flash but that would still be weird.
On June 27 2012 21:15 Birdie wrote: The fine isn't that much (if I did my conversion right, it's about $500) but firing him is a bit steep in my opinion.
i think you'll find its actually much less than that, 50k won is closer to $50. So not a big fine at all, just a symbolic thing i guess.
On June 27 2012 21:15 Birdie wrote: The fine isn't that much (if I did my conversion right, it's about $500) but firing him is a bit steep in my opinion.
On June 27 2012 21:15 Birdie wrote: The fine isn't that much (if I did my conversion right, it's about $500) but firing him is a bit steep in my opinion.
i think you'll find its actually much less than that, 50k won is closer to $50. So not a big fine at all, just a symbolic thing i guess.
I have no concept of the Korean currency or surely I would have realized that that is an absurd amount for a fine :X
I think the fine is fairly harsh. The suspension seems just, but a cash fine seems abit out of the ordinary for such cases. I guess there was a need to appease the rage that's been going around.
On June 27 2012 22:08 uriel- wrote: Whoops, I had it as 50k. Brain fart.
I have no concept of the Korean currency or surely I would have realized that that is an absurd amount for a fine :X
I think the fine is fairly harsh. The suspension seems just, but a cash fine seems abit out of the ordinary for such cases. I guess there was a need to appease the rage that's been going around.
is like <500 USD, it's not THAT much but definitely dents someone's monthly
It depends on both how much his salary is and what the cost of living is like in Korea... You can't really get a good idea of what it is just from googling the exchange rate.
Why exactly did Shine pp for? It seemed to me like his mouse stopped working.
The KeSPA referee took 3 full seconds to pause the game after pp was called. Not that it mattered anymore in that situation, but how hard is it to F10-P? Jesus.
IMHO if that bullshit didn't happen Shine would have won the 2nd game n then it could have gone 3-2 either way easily. I'm very very disappointed.
On June 28 2012 00:36 Xiphos wrote: Since KesPa is dropping BW for good, I am going to badmouth them as much as I can now.
Really? Man, 500K of FINE for the Committee? Fuck you!
kespa is also looking out for its players and kept the players of T8 afloat on their own funds, and they are trying to make sure the remaining players have an income in a year. They aren't all bad, I may disagree with its questionable decision making some times, but we need kespa.
On June 27 2012 20:44 uriel- wrote: It seems the referee responsible for the decision has been fined 50k won and barred from refereeing for the remainder of the OSL. KesPA convened some emergency meeting and agreed that a bad call was made, and an apology has been issued to KT, KT's coach Lee, Flash, Samsung Khan and Khan's head coach January.
KeSPA started an emergency referee committee meeting on the 27th, and discussed matters regarding the pause and judgement (re-judgement) in the game between Flash and Shine on the 26th in the Tving OSL, and has admitted that the referee responsible (Woo ?) had made mistakes in his judgement.
Referee Woo had decided at the time that "the match could be continued after bring out (loading) the save", but then immediately after because the save file didn't respond and encountered technical problems, he thought that continuing the match would be too difficult, so he announced a re-game.
Kespa elevated the issue and had a committee discuss the event, Referee Woo said "When Shine requested a pause it was possible to give Flash the win, but since the match was already announced to continue, giving Flash the win at that point seemed unreasonable."
But the referee committee thinks, that since a save file problem was confirmed, the game could not be continued, so it should have been judged as a disconnect, so the game would have been paused again, and at this point giving a player the win was more opportune. The referee has also personally apologized on his social medias, saying "There is responsibility with making a judgement call, it's because (I) of following the decision that changes to the rules (ruling) can't be made."
After that, the Kespa committee admitted that the referee made a wrong judgement, and there existed problems of not exposing / making public the details of the event, not making a thorough judgement call, and other problems. As such, the committee fined Referee Woo 500,000 won, and removed him from the referee roster of this OSL.
The committee has also apologized to Team KT Rolster / Samsung Khan, Flash, and main coaches Lee and January.
Lol, no apology to Shine. Even the Kespa committee hates him.
Thanks for the translation! Was an interesting read.
Woah, a fine just for a bad call? I would say that's uncalled (pun unintended) for. You do not see referees having to pay fines out of their own pocket when they make a bad call in sports. The worst that could happen is that they never referee the rest of the tournament or get fired, but never fined.
KESPA should have either just stopped using him for the rest of the tournament or fire him.
can anyone explain the use of saved games? i don't understand why they couldn't just unpause the game and let it continue. Or did Shine have to leave the game to change his settings?
On June 28 2012 02:45 blabber wrote: can anyone explain the use of saved games? i don't understand why they couldn't just unpause the game and let it continue. Or did Shine have to leave the game to change his settings?
Why the hell didn't they appologize to SHINE as well? The fuck the kid got so much hate during the pp crap. The delay was not his fault and he deserves an appology as well. KeSPA showing their arrogance as always. BW players deserve better
On June 28 2012 00:39 s.Q.uelched wrote: Why exactly did Shine pp for? It seemed to me like his mouse stopped working.
The KeSPA referee took 3 full seconds to pause the game after pp was called. Not that it mattered anymore in that situation, but how hard is it to F10-P? Jesus.
IMHO if that bullshit didn't happen Shine would have won the 2nd game n then it could have gone 3-2 either way easily. I'm very very disappointed.
Honest question: Isn't what Shine has done just blatant cheating or if you want to call it that way a bug/rules abuse?
What if his ridiculous Muta all-in had miraculously worked by somehow catching Flash off-guard? Then he certainly wouldn't have pped. To me this is flat out cheating.
On June 28 2012 05:05 quien wrote: lol flash knocked out shine, kespa and the referee. a true god.
man coming from sc2 and hearing about how tough kespa is i'm wondering if this is truly the first time they've stood up to this type of thing. I hate overbearing organizations like kespa. feels so constricting.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
On June 28 2012 05:05 quien wrote: lol flash knocked out shine, kespa and the referee. a true god.
man coming from sc2 and hearing about how tough kespa is i'm wondering if this is truly the first time they've stood up to this type of thing. I hate overbearing organizations like kespa. feels so constricting.
sure, i feel the same way, and that's the reason i'm glad because i think this is the first time that kespa pay attention to a complaining of this kind. flash is a clever person and the only player who speaks his mind no matter what, and his status and the support of kt and coach lee gave him the weigh to make it real.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
I think you need to add that there are also various bug-exploits that let's you do the same thing. However these are forbidden under KeSPA rules, and grounds for disqualification. I'm pretty sure what Flash was referring to was that Shine's team apparantly asked for the referee's to check if Flash's manouver was legit, which it was as rigth-clicking minerals is a legal way to mineral walk.
I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
I think you need to add that there are also various bug-exploits that let's you do the same thing. However these are forbidden under KeSPA rules, and grounds for disqualification. I'm pretty sure what Flash was referring to was that Shine's team apparantly asked for the referee's to check if Flash's manouver was legit, which it was as rigth-clicking minerals is a legal way to mineral walk.
I was merely explaining what seemed to have happened in game as that seemed to be the question. I have checked the vod myself, you can see the scv leaving the main mineral line about this moment when flash has vision of the main mineral line and you can follow the route it takes on the minimap :
You are obviously right though, there are illegal ways to achieve this (the return cargo bug I believe) and I find perfectly normal that Shine/Khan asked the referee to check that Flash did not use them.
On June 27 2012 12:54 MrCon wrote: Can someone explain the scv scout thing in game 1 ?
Flash snuck an SCV back into Shine's base that should have been blocked if he didn't use the mineral click trick to find the hydra-den, it helped him prepare for the 2 hatch lurker rush.
As far as I know, mineral walk works only on visible minerals. Therefore Flash should have scanned mineral line, haven't him?
Flash right clicked the mineral line while his first scouting scv could see him. To be precise, he used shift to order the second scouting scv to the bottom of the map, then to mine on the visible mineral patch which enabled that scv to avoid the lings that wanted to deny scouting and to delay the arrival of this scout a bit so that he was sure to see Shine's tech.
I think you need to add that there are also various bug-exploits that let's you do the same thing. However these are forbidden under KeSPA rules, and grounds for disqualification. I'm pretty sure what Flash was referring to was that Shine's team apparantly asked for the referee's to check if Flash's manouver was legit, which it was as rigth-clicking minerals is a legal way to mineral walk.
I was merely explaining what seemed to have happened in game as that seemed to be the question. I have checked the vod myself, you can see the scv leaving the main mineral line about this moment when flash has vision of the main mineral line and you can follow the route it takes on the minimap : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8V1f03_9jw&feature=player_detailpage#t=439s You are obviously right though, there are illegal ways to achieve this (the return cargo bug I believe) and I find perfectly normal that Shine/Khan asked the referee to check that Flash did not use them.
Shift-right click the mineral while it's in vision of the other SCV. Perfectly legal.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
I wonder what it feels like to be focused on a game so much (given that it is your career) and then have to wait around for 45 minutes.
It reminds me of some pro tennis matches in which one player gets injured putting the other player in a mental disadvantage upon resumption of the match. I wonder what was going through Flash's head. Didn't seem to matter to god though.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
Maybe Shine knew that the rules had changed and state that in case of an error from Kespa side there would be a regame? Maybe he maneuvered into a big engagement from where it would be difficult to continue after a pause?
I seriously lack knowledge about the Kespa rules here. So yeah, I know that I am a bit on the speculative side with why the regame would be a safe bet. But the TIMING of the pp is just far too extreme to be a coincidence, no way I believe that. I am convinced that Shine knew before his Muta all-in that something was off but instead of immediately pp'ing when he noticed the error he waited until he was in an unwinnable position (thus maximizing his odds).
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
Maybe Shine knew that the rules had changed and state that in case of an error from Kespa side there would be a regame? Maybe he maneuvered into a big engagement from where it would be difficult to continue after a pause?
I seriously lack knowledge about the Kespa rules here. So yeah, I know that I am a bit on the speculative side with why the regame would be a safe bet. But the TIMING of the pp is just far too extreme to be a coincidence, no way I believe that. I am convinced that Shine knew before his Muta all-in that something was off but instead of immediately pp'ing when he noticed the error he waited until he was in an unwinnable position (thus maximizing his odds).
That makes no sense. Wouldn't it be minimizing his odds? If it is unwinnable situation referees could have easily declared a victory for Flash, but if something wrong went from begining there are more chances that refs would call a regame. And I highly doubt Shine would risk to continue a game if something is wrong from begining, esspecially if it is from technical side.
On June 28 2012 00:39 s.Q.uelched wrote: Why exactly did Shine pp for? It seemed to me like his mouse stopped working.
The KeSPA referee took 3 full seconds to pause the game after pp was called. Not that it mattered anymore in that situation, but how hard is it to F10-P? Jesus.
IMHO if that bullshit didn't happen Shine would have won the 2nd game n then it could have gone 3-2 either way easily. I'm very very disappointed.
Why would Shine have won that game?
It seemed to me like his mouse stopped working. You actually think he was chilling his muta's just before the pp there on purpose? I don't. Flash might have had better eco, but Shine had superior numbers and Flash wasn't even close to getting irradiate or valks.
Trying to be as less biased as possible, I think Flash had an advantage in the game (before Shine suicided his mutas), not 100% won, maybe 70-75% but did have a good advantage. Shine was not dead cause he still had mutas and Flash was not close to irradiate, but honestly it was just a matter of time for Flash to win by being just Flash and he had already stabilized. Giving Shine the benefit of the doubt i would say he tried to pick off a turret and his mouse stopped working hence his mutas got stuck and he couldnt move them away from the marines/turrets, so he requested for a pp.
I thought they would regame long before they gave a decision because at this point it was either a) giving Flash the win (which i didnt think they would if they had the continue option), b) continue (unfair to Shine because his "mouse problems" (here i am also siding with him) would have give him a disadvantage and it was pretty much giving the win to Flash (cause at this point Shine was 100% dead). and c) regame (would screw Flash and help Shine). Maybe a regame would screw Flash less than giving a win to Flash would screw Shine.
In hind sight and reading other comments i would probably say giving Flash the win would have been better, but honestly its a really hard decision to make (giving again Shine all bias and that he was not at fault for anything, with a ton of optimism that he could turn the game around) If Shine, as mentioned, did not check his equipment, i think Flash should have been given the win.
Effort did the exact same thing to Shine during the tiebreakers in an OSL (the one Effort won from Flash). I guess Shine decided to try that trick out.
On June 28 2012 07:25 Hinanawi wrote: I just watched the replay...I don't get how this isn't Shine abusing the hell out of the rules.
He had a hundred muta engagements with Flash before he pp'd, he could have called pp as soon as he realized that his hotkeys were messed up. Instead, he pps only after it was basically assured that he was going to lose?
Was there something about muta control that somehow means he only just noticed the hotkey thing in that final engagement? It seems so unlikely.
One person said Shine was abusing the rules/cheating, I don't think the majority of people, including flash fanboys such as myself, actually believe that.
Did they say it was his hotkeys that got fucked up? I saw them saying it was settings but I dunno if that means his hotkeys, although I guess that could explain why he would all of sudden suicide his mutas inexplicably. But I think a pro would realize rather quickly that his hotkeys were wrong and first instinct would be to get muta to safety, then call for pp, just imo there though.
As for others commenting on why kespa didn't apologize to Shine, only reason I can think of is that it does seems kind of backwards to apologize to the person who benefitted from the whole situation. I don't really see Shine as a victim here but I guess some do.
You are missing a point here. Like I said above - unless I miss something that hasn't been stated yet - this is a perfect example of rules abuse. Had he won any of his battles, he would have just kept quiet and said nothing.
Do you know what a freeroll is? Shine was clearly trying to cheat out a freeroll. "If I win the battle I win the game, if I lose the battle I pp into a regame." That is what actually happened there. There is no other reason whatsoever for the pp timing. Such behavior should have been punished instead of rewarded, I wouldn't mind to see him get DQ'ed for that.
It also doesn't matter if it was Kespa's fault or not. This does not give you the right to cheat.
No I'm not missing the point though. That's all fine and good, and everyone who knows SC knows that yes, Flash had that game won 100%, but why did the referees side with Shine, and order and re-game? Of course it's cheating 100% if there was actually nothing wrong on Shine's side, but how did he convince the ref of that? Unless he had the ref in his pocket, but that's a pretty elaborate cheat, for a shot at 1 re-game in a series which he was pretty clearly outclassed in to begin with.
The whole "settings" explanation is so vague, really can't know what actually happened in that game. The decision was obviously in Shine's favor but calling him a cheat? I dunno I'm not there, just dunno really how he could slide that past the refs, when history (MSL jd flash) has them just declaring a winner.
Maybe Shine knew that the rules had changed and state that in case of an error from Kespa side there would be a regame? Maybe he maneuvered into a big engagement from where it would be difficult to continue after a pause?
I seriously lack knowledge about the Kespa rules here. So yeah, I know that I am a bit on the speculative side with why the regame would be a safe bet. But the TIMING of the pp is just far too extreme to be a coincidence, no way I believe that. I am convinced that Shine knew before his Muta all-in that something was off but instead of immediately pp'ing when he noticed the error he waited until he was in an unwinnable position (thus maximizing his odds).
That makes no sense. Wouldn't it be minimizing his odds? If it is unwinnable situation referees could have easily declared a victory for Flash, but if something wrong went from begining there are more chances that refs would call a regame. And I highly doubt Shine would risk to continue a game if something is wrong from begining, esspecially if it is from technical side.
To clear up some false informations: the game was 100% won for Flash when Shine typed pp. Not 99%, not 95% and certainly not 70-75 %. Flash passing out was the only theoretical option for a win. The Mutalisk fight in Flash's main was lost. There were 3-4 Turrets and a bunch of M&M shredding his poor Mutas. Retreating was also not an option because he had nothing to fall back to. It was an all-in and the point of a possible transition was long gone. He was still on 2 Hatches! Shine looked like he had something because he kept his supply artificially high by not investing into any tech or economy but he had no drones and most importantly no freaking larva.
I don't know why there was a regame because that game was without a doubt over but I really would like to know. Has their policy changed after the massive criticism on their JD-Flash decision? Did Shine know that there would be a regame when they screw up his settings? I would really like the help of one of our Koreans here to clear up the rules situation!
Because IF Shine knew that there would be a regame then it would be maximizing his odds to go for one more all-in. Like he did. He flew his clump of Mutas over the heavily fortified Barracks. If he somehow had won that engagement by catching Flash offguard he could have won the game by having control over Flash's production. But as soon as he realized that he couldn't win the fight he pp'ed out and then there was a regame.
Note: This happened during the same day as the incident, so the penalties against the referee had not been levied yet. Coach Lee from KT Rolster recounts his experience during the referee fiasco
* I think the question was printed wrong between the first 2 questions so i swapped them Q: Why did you apply for an interview? A: A discontent / disagreement at the referee can not be publicized, if there is dissatisfaction it should be discussed afterwards. Under these rules I wasn't going to talk about it before, but I think that this time the issue can't just be glanced over, so I applied for an interview. I know that the commitee and referees are all very dillegent and hard working, but for eSports to progress, referees must make the correct judgements that if not satisfies at least convinces everyone.
Q: Why did (you allow them) they give a regame then? A: Since they already gave the decision of continuing the match, I don't think they should have changed that decision to regame. And also if you were to change the decision it should have been to give the side with the advantage the win. To us when a referee gives a regame the referee should take all responsibility, but I'm not sure how that responsibility could be handled. If the regame was lost (by flash), then (the player's) mentality would be affected greatly, so I feel that the referee should have been punished as a consequence of the responsibility that he had.
Q: What's the point that you want to make? A: Before during a preliminaries, one of our players also experienced the same problem. The mutalisks couldn't be grouped, so he asked for a pause, but it (our player) was given an immediate loss. Just thinking about it makes me feel frustrated, that referee judged completely differently. Today's situation is a bit different, but I also didn't think that they would give a re-game. There needs to be a solid standard, I'm very suspicious about rather the committee (kespa) has trained referees properly, rather the referees are qualified.
Q: The referee says that he will handle the responsibility (fall out) A: As to how referees are punished we are not told (don't know anything). This time they also said that the referee himself will handle the responsibility, how the committee (kespa) handles it is hard to say. Events like this might happen again, I hope that the situation today doesn't occur again.
Q: Hery[Hyo] assistant coach was expelled from the stage for standing up against the referee A: If you stand up / argue with the referee for no valid reason / argument you should be expelled from the stage, that part is fine. But under this situation we can only forfeit / strike against the match. Good thing that Flash's mentality was very stable, so he played well.
Q: Anything else you want to say? A: Had Flash lost in the rematch, then this situation might have escaladed even more, after the match I also talked with coach January, she also thought that the game should have been awarded win/loss (win to flash) based on game advantage. as to what criterias referees use to issue a re-match I really want to know. This decision for a rematch must be followed up with consequences for the referee's responsibility.
First of all, Shine was at slight fault by not setting his shit up properly. Secondly, if there was already a precedent (AKA the power outage incident) to give the game to the winning side (and holy fuck, Shine's mutas were getting wrecked by turrets, MnM near the rax, and a force coming back up the main ramp that could have wiped the mutas by themselves, not to mention the entire lack of ling support...or economy, not to mention Shine's clear "hit-or-miss" style of engagements in that set), then the game definitely should have gone to Flash...such a goddamn shame he had to go through this.
My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
All of Shine's builds were aggressive gimmicks meant to steal games off Flash with luck. I don't buy that Shine, a progamer, did not get set up properly in an OSL ro8 match against Flash. There's no way that actually happened. Even if it did, Shine could have paused the game when his first mutas spawned if they weren't grouping properly. Not after Flash barely defends and Shine in a moment lost all of his mutas.
Yes it is ultimately the referee's decision to regame, but the timing of the pause was too convenient. Shine can go leave progaming there isn't enough room left for people like that.
On June 30 2012 05:48 Sinensis wrote: My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
All of Shine's builds were aggressive gimmicks meant to steal games off Flash with luck. I don't buy that Shine, a progamer, did not get set up properly in an OSL ro8 match against Flash. There's no way that actually happened. Even if it did, Shine could have paused the game when his first mutas spawned if they weren't grouping properly. Not after Flash barely defends and Shine in a moment lost all of his mutas.
Yes it is ultimately the referee's decision to regame, but the timing of the pause was too convenient. Shine can go leave progaming there isn't enough room left for people like that.
Shit happens during matches . Your mouse or keyboard could malfunction while you micro your mutas against marines / turrets and you can lose the game instantly. If Shine experienced a malfunction from the hardware/software during the game he has every right to request a pause to the game . Flash has also done it in the past in the OSL finals against Effort when he lost his valkyries to scourge when he supposedly fucked up his monitor (it was Flash's fault for pulling the plug on his monitor with his legs , and regame was given , Effort lost his advantages situation and the element of surprise from the strategy he used . Effort's mouse also supposedly malfunctioned in the tiebreaker in the OSL group stages when he was microing his mutas and lost a battle against Shine and Shine got the same situation as Flash did right now -regame . It takes 1 or 2 seconds of hardware/software failure to lose key units and be in an unwinnable position or at severe disadvantage and at that point pauseing the game always looks fishy in the eyes of the spectators . Shine is geting a lot more shit from it then players like Flash and Effort , because they somehow have the benefit of the doubt , because they are having better results and/or are more popular .
The so called mental disadvantage after a call in a game were the player was feeling in a comfortable situation is also a load of bullshit . If a game is paused the player should expect any possible outcome and take the word from the referee like a man be it right or wrong . Same like all sports when the referees make a tough decision be it right or wrong , the losing player or team could either feel like they are robed and lose or forget about it and play their best . And this is the only thing i hate about Flash as a player that he always seems to feel robed after a decision while players like Jaedong/Effort/Shine take it with a grain of salt and continue without bitching about it , but i guess thats also because he takes his job really seriously and is part why he is the best player ever but still i am not a fan of it .
It's also pathetic how some of you guys perceive all - ins and cheeses probably influenced from people like Idra . Shine's style is aggressive and he choose those builds specifically for the maps incorporated with his style . Shine plays to his advantages , why would he choose to play standart against Flash and be at disadvantage . Cheeses and all - ins are not a coin flip like a lot of people here thinks . It depends a lot on the skills to execute and defend them and also the mind games behind them .
This comment reminds me of the July vs Best OSL finals where people were like July can't win in a macro game and he doesn't deserve his wins , but guess what if you can "steal" games your whole career up to a golden mouse then why not ?
On June 30 2012 05:48 Sinensis wrote: My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
All of Shine's builds were aggressive gimmicks meant to steal games off Flash with luck. I don't buy that Shine, a progamer, did not get set up properly in an OSL ro8 match against Flash. There's no way that actually happened. Even if it did, Shine could have paused the game when his first mutas spawned if they weren't grouping properly. Not after Flash barely defends and Shine in a moment lost all of his mutas.
Yes it is ultimately the referee's decision to regame, but the timing of the pause was too convenient. Shine can go leave progaming there isn't enough room left for people like that.
but..shine is always aggressive, thats just how he plays.
On June 30 2012 05:48 Sinensis wrote: My opinion on this might be controversial or just flat out wrong, but based on what I saw I believe Shine purposely abused the rules in order to try to get a regame, and he got it.
But Kespa said that the ref was wrong and made the wrong decision. If the right decision was awarding the game to Flash, how would Shine trying to cheat in the way you suggest even make any sense?
IMHO, a bad situation made worse by an incompetent ref. The 45 min wait alone is inexcusable.
On June 30 2012 07:21 raga4ka wrote: Shit happens during matches . Your mouse or keyboard could malfunction while you micro your mutas against marines / turrets and you can lose the game instantly. If Shine experienced a malfunction from the hardware/software during the game he has every right to request a pause to the game . Flash has also done it in the past in the OSL finals against Effort when he lost his valkyries to scourge when he supposedly fucked up his monitor (it was Flash's fault for pulling the plug on his monitor with his legs , and regame was given , Effort lost his advantages situation and the element of surprise from the strategy he used . Effort's mouse also supposedly malfunctioned in the tiebreaker in the OSL group stages when he was microing his mutas and lost a battle against Shine and Shine got the same situation as Flash did right now -regame . It takes 1 or 2 seconds of hardware/software failure to lose key units and be in an unwinnable position or at severe disadvantage and at that point pauseing the game always looks fishy in the eyes of the spectators . Shine is geting a lot more shit from it then players like Flash and Effort , because they somehow have the benefit of the doubt , because they are having better results and/or are more popular .
Yeah, looking at it from that angle, Shine is kind of getting hate due to how unpopular he is even before the incident. The guy deserves benefit of the doubt. I could be wrong but no one really has a complete idea of what the "error" Shine complained about was all about. So we can't even prove or even have any intelligent arguments about the accusation that Shine knew about the error but waited until the game was unwinnable before complaining about it.
On June 30 2012 07:21 raga4ka wrote: The so called mental disadvantage after a call in a game were the player was feeling in a comfortable situation is also a load of bullshit . If a game is paused the player should expect any possible outcome and take the word from the referee like a man be it right or wrong . Same like all sports when the referees make a tough decision be it right or wrong , the losing player or team could either feel like they are robed and lose or forget about it and play their best . And this is the only thing i hate about Flash as a player that he always seems to feel robed after a decision while players like Jaedong/Effort/Shine take it with a grain of salt and continue without bitching about it , but i guess thats also because he takes his job really seriously and is part why he is the best player ever but still i am not a fan of it .
To be fair, I can't see how such tough decisions can just be shrugged off so easily. All players would feel the same way. In interviews, they just express their opinions in different ways. Some would barely talk about it. Some, like Flash, choose to say something about it (or as you put it, bitch about it). I agree that keeping your composure after a bad referee decision is important. But isn't that what Flash did? He was obviously distraught but managed to pull off the win. I believe the opinions he expressed about the referee decision afterwards is another matter. If he felt that the decision was wrong, then he simply expressed that. And from what I read in his interviews, the bulk of his "bitching" has always been more about the way the situation was handled (asinine demeanor of referees, lengthy delay) instead of the actual decision. Even in the power outage incident, it was the same thing. He said that in his own point of view, he was at a decent position before the power went out (obviously, some people disagree but that is another discussion). And then he complained about how badly the situation was handled. Moreover, he did say that "players have been mentioning such issues for some time now. I hope what needs to be changed and improved can be addressed". Either that is a flat out lie or Flash is simply using this opportunity to voice out what everyone else has been "bitching" about.
On June 30 2012 07:21 raga4ka wrote: It's also pathetic how some of you guys perceive all - ins and cheeses probably influenced from people like Idra . Shine's style is aggressive and he choose those builds specifically for the maps incorporated with his style . Shine plays to his advantages , why would he choose to play standart against Flash and be at disadvantage . Cheeses and all - ins are not a coin flip like a lot of people here thinks . It depends a lot on the skills to execute and defend them and also the mind games behind them .
This comment reminds me of the July vs Best OSL finals where people were like July can't win in a macro game and he doesn't deserve his wins , but guess what if you can "steal" games your whole career up to a golden mouse then why not ?
The truth is, cheeses do require less skill. Some cheeses more so than others. Some to the degree that a D player on ICCUP can execute them. I guess Shine is getting hate for his cheeses/all-ins because people like it better when cheeses/all-ins are made for mind game purposes (July vs Best). People don't like it when a player cheeses because he doesn't really have any other hope of winning and just tries to make the game as much of a coin flip as possible. And yes, cheese can really make a game a coin flip. Although in my opinion, not all of shine's cheeses in the series made it a coin flip (or maybe some more than the others). And for the record, I was impressed by how Shine played to the extent that I was wondering why zergs didn't do this more often in ZvT. I mean, the games flash won (including the botched game 2 but excluding game 4) were really tight. If these strategies could push Flash to the edge, why not use them on other Terrans? I guess the obvious answer is that they feel they can win without resorting to these methods (which, can backfire on them) if the Terran isn't Flash. The games were also, for me, a huge slap in the face to zergs complaining that they don't have any strategic options when playing ZvT.
On June 27 2012 12:25 uriel- wrote: Edit (update):
It seems the referee responsible for the decision has been fined 500k won and barred from refereeing for the remainder of the OSL. KesPA convened some emergency meeting and agreed that a bad call was made, and an apology has been issued to KT, KT's coach Lee, Flash, Samsung Khan and Khan's head coach January.
On June 28 2012 01:36 nonsequitur wrote: Woah, a fine just for a bad call? I would say that's uncalled (pun unintended) for. You do not see referees having to pay fines out of their own pocket when they make a bad call in sports. The worst that could happen is that they never referee the rest of the tournament or get fired, but never fined.
KESPA should have either just stopped using him for the rest of the tournament or fire him.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.wfbrood.com/xingji/UploadFiles_9710/201206/20120627061918929.jpg)
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