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On June 16 2012 20:42 RockIronrod wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:35 StarStruck wrote:On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote:On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote:
great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." You guys have to get over this notion of esportu. They stand on their own. I put it in quotes because I don't really subscribe to it all that much myself. However, undercutting growth of the scene as a whole to purely profit yourself is a colossal dick move, and is stupid in the long run. I mean, I realize they ARE businesses, and they're trying to get every possible edge on the competition, but that doesn't mean that's acceptable. In the same way that I disapprove of sweat shops, I also disapprove of shady, downright dirty tactics like this. It's explained in the video I linked before, they specifically mention Dreamhack's exemption.
Sure it is. As you said, it's a business. Tournament organizers can pay lip service to the community all they want by saying they wish their competitors well when in reality they want to be the go-to organizers for any tournament.
It's a problem within the entire industry.
One of the many reasons I keep saying, "If you care about your business and want to raise awareness and legitimacy you have a summit with all the major players for each game." You need 1 format like the World Cup. Rules should be right across the board.
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if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans?
can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics
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On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote:
Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL?
Lot of opportunities + lots of money + easy game
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On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote:
if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans?
can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics
on what do you spend 300+ apm in dota2? or any other moba? it really is a question...
moba games from my experience are fast as first 4 minutes of starcraft. sure you can spam and get those 300 apm, but actually using your multitasking/speed/mechanics as an advantage, very hard...
but that's from my experience, it is not written in stone
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On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content.
so it makes you feel better, even though you suck?
starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft.
there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering...
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On June 16 2012 22:05 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote:
if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans?
can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics on what do you spend 300+ apm in dota2? or any other moba? it really is a question... moba games from my experience are fast as first 4 minutes of starcraft. sure you can spam and get those 300 apm, but actually using your multitasking/speed/mechanics as an advantage, very hard... but that's from my experience, it is not written in stone
Agreed even tho their map control is a great advantage, but since its a team game, if you miss something on the map, theres 4 other player to notify you. Everything is lot faster in any dota game, ever faster than the fights in Sc2, i wouldn't say their skills come trough even as much as into Sc2.
Players shine with great micro, fast decision making and good overall understanding. Yes, you need to be fast to buy items and use abilities, but i really dont think so theres anything to use 300 apm for. Maybe in the heat of battle, the numbers goes up to 200~ or so, but theres no macro needed, other harassment or anything at all, just the battle.
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I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis.
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On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote:
I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis.
I don't either. Just because its not their game they're opposed to it.
Tough luck. They're allowed to make their own choices as to what direction they take their careers. If a SC2 decided to make a switch to anything I would wish them good luck and all the best.
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On June 16 2012 18:57 Djeez wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. Hardly a good thing, IMO. The grind for lvl 30 is way too long in my opinion, and the grind for runepages, runes and 16 champions is even more ridiculous. But I guess that's a necessity when your game is free. Never understood the mentality of people saying you need as much experience as possible before doing ranked. There's ELO to sort out your skill level anyway.
Probably because if you go into ranked with no experience, and feed horribly you arent only dropping your elo you're also losing the other 4 players on your team elo just because you were too awful to play some first.
thats why.
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On June 16 2012 22:08 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. so it makes you feel better, even though you suck? starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft. there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering...
Without a "casual crowd" and new people playing the game, a game dies. Look at Broodwar, for the last 10 years+ it has been hugely popular in Korea, but outside of Korea, the game died. When's the last time the BW scene in NA was even remotely close in size and scope to the Korean one (2000, 2001, 2002? 10+ years ago...)?
How was my comparison between the games silly? Did you even read my post? I said that BW (and SC2 to a lesser extent) is highly reliant on mechanical skill - I think everyone who has ever played Broodwar and who has been reading TL for a long time can recall the countless number of newbs who in the past have posted replays and simply gotten a reply of "macro better" or "your macro is terrible" or something along those lines. Mechanical skill is discrete and obvious (more so in BW than SC2), while LoL (which is not mechanically challenging) instead rewards knowledge based skill which is essentially "invisible". Just because LoL lacks the "flashy" skill component doesn't mean it's skill-less. Is Chess or Bridge skill-less because you don't need 300 APM?
There are people who don't/can't play BW+SC2 and watch it at events + barcrafts etc because the game requires a huge input and upkeep of skill to play - you can't play 1v1s "casually". This is completely different from LoL as ding - surprise - LoL is casual friendly! People can actually continue to play the game casually while enjoying pro matches. There are tertiary reasons why LoL can be boring to watch (for me: the snowball heavy aspect of play in tournament level games and the relative staleness of the competitive NA scene, etc can make tournament level games kinda boring) but I guess the people who would rather play than watch have their own reasons. They can play LoL casually with friends as a social event, and there aren't any Barcraft equivalents to LoL yet (nowhere to actually watch the games as a social event unless you attend the tournaments in person).
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On June 16 2012 23:50 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:57 Djeez wrote:On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. Hardly a good thing, IMO. The grind for lvl 30 is way too long in my opinion, and the grind for runepages, runes and 16 champions is even more ridiculous. But I guess that's a necessity when your game is free. Never understood the mentality of people saying you need as much experience as possible before doing ranked. There's ELO to sort out your skill level anyway. Probably because if you go into ranked with no experience, and feed horribly you arent only dropping your elo you're also losing the other 4 players on your team elo just because you were too awful to play some first. thats why.
This is kinda off topic, but whatever. The grind to level 30 isn't bad TBH. It's about 150 wins and 150 losses. You can easily afford 16 champions by the time you hit lvl 30 as long as you don't buy all of the most expensive 6300 IP champs (instead opting for the cheapest/cheaper ones). In terms of experience, I can't vouch for most people but I felt that after 300~ normal games (getting to level 30) I was able to do fine in ranked (pretty much gave up playing normals for the most part once I hit 30).
On topic, I'm sure that any BW pros that switch to LoL will be using their time far more efficiently than the average casual player. I'm sure Grape and Point have probably already been playing LoL and are lvl 30 and most likely high elo ranked in solo queue already (before deciding to go "pro"). Does anyone have their Korean server LoL ids? (we could check fow.kr for their ranked elos)
It would be kind of interesting to see how fast you could train 5 absolutely new players to LoL (or DOTA2 for that matter) with a background in a game like BW. 5 mid-tier ex-BW pros starting from scratch in LoL and queuing every game as an arranged 5 team (in normals) starting from level 1 could conceivably be mid-high elo level in solo queue (in terms of game knowledge/experience) by the time they hit level 30.
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Would be cool if some former MBC/Fox/Oz players make their progaming comeback through LoL.
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On June 17 2012 00:31 DURRHURRDERP wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 22:08 snailz wrote:On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. so it makes you feel better, even though you suck? starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft. there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering... Without a "casual crowd" and new people playing the game, a game dies. Look at Broodwar, for the last 10 years+ it has been hugely popular in Korea, but outside of Korea, the game died. When's the last time the BW scene in NA was even remotely close in size and scope to the Korean one (2000, 2001, 2002? 10+ years ago...)? How was my comparison between the games silly? Did you even read my post? I said that BW (and SC2 to a lesser extent) is highly reliant on mechanical skill - I think everyone who has ever played Broodwar and who has been reading TL for a long time can recall the countless number of newbs who in the past have posted replays and simply gotten a reply of "macro better" or "your macro is terrible" or something along those lines. Mechanical skill is discrete and obvious (more so in BW than SC2), while LoL (which is not mechanically challenging) instead rewards knowledge based skill which is essentially "invisible". Just because LoL lacks the "flashy" skill component doesn't mean it's skill-less. Is Chess or Bridge skill-less because you don't need 300 APM? There are people who don't/can't play BW+SC2 and watch it at events + barcrafts etc because the game requires a huge input and upkeep of skill to play - you can't play 1v1s "casually". This is completely different from LoL as ding - surprise - LoL is casual friendly! People can actually continue to play the game casually while enjoying pro matches. There are tertiary reasons why LoL can be boring to watch (for me: the snowball heavy aspect of play in tournament level games and the relative staleness of the competitive NA scene, etc can make tournament level games kinda boring) but I guess the people who would rather play than watch have their own reasons. They can play LoL casually with friends as a social event, and there aren't any Barcraft equivalents to LoL yet (nowhere to actually watch the games as a social event unless you attend the tournaments in person).
I'm sorry. Who are you again?
The Brood War scene outside of Korea never had the money/sponsorships that we have now. Everything was grassroots based and our scene was based on the love of the game. The amount of contributions we had, clan leagues, nation wars, etc. was ridiculous. Dweebs need to brush up on their material. You cannot compare the two scenes at all. So stop right there. It's funny how many times this has been brought up over the course of the last 6 months.
You guys don't know our scene existed. Fine, but keep the tongue in cheek comments to yourself or at least try to look shit up before you start your rants.
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Best of luck to Grape and others for their stints in LoL.
What I worry though, is that DotA2 is almost out. With Valve upping their support in the game, I think it's really possible that DotA2 could become a dominant MOBA games around the world, and possibly overtakes LoL. And if that's happen, I just hope that Korean scene would be able to adapt to the rest of the world.
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On June 17 2012 01:54 Veldril wrote:
Best of luck to Grape and others for their stints in LoL.
What I worry though, is that DotA2 is almost out. With Valve upping their support in the game, I think it's really possible that DotA2 could become a dominant MOBA games around the world, and possibly overtakes LoL. And if that's happen, I just hope that Korean scene would be able to adapt to the rest of the world.
Don't worry, LoL is so much more different in terms of many design choices that i'm pretty sure both games will coexist. At least i hope so since both games have different feeling and i'd REALLY hate to be limited to playing only one, which for some weird reason seems to be the goal of all people who hate either game
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On June 17 2012 01:42 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 00:31 DURRHURRDERP wrote:On June 16 2012 22:08 snailz wrote:On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote:
I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. so it makes you feel better, even though you suck? starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft. there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering... Without a "casual crowd" and new people playing the game, a game dies. Look at Broodwar, for the last 10 years+ it has been hugely popular in Korea, but outside of Korea, the game died. When's the last time the BW scene in NA was even remotely close in size and scope to the Korean one (2000, 2001, 2002? 10+ years ago...)? How was my comparison between the games silly? Did you even read my post? I said that BW (and SC2 to a lesser extent) is highly reliant on mechanical skill - I think everyone who has ever played Broodwar and who has been reading TL for a long time can recall the countless number of newbs who in the past have posted replays and simply gotten a reply of "macro better" or "your macro is terrible" or something along those lines. Mechanical skill is discrete and obvious (more so in BW than SC2), while LoL (which is not mechanically challenging) instead rewards knowledge based skill which is essentially "invisible". Just because LoL lacks the "flashy" skill component doesn't mean it's skill-less. Is Chess or Bridge skill-less because you don't need 300 APM? There are people who don't/can't play BW+SC2 and watch it at events + barcrafts etc because the game requires a huge input and upkeep of skill to play - you can't play 1v1s "casually". This is completely different from LoL as ding - surprise - LoL is casual friendly! People can actually continue to play the game casually while enjoying pro matches. There are tertiary reasons why LoL can be boring to watch (for me: the snowball heavy aspect of play in tournament level games and the relative staleness of the competitive NA scene, etc can make tournament level games kinda boring) but I guess the people who would rather play than watch have their own reasons. They can play LoL casually with friends as a social event, and there aren't any Barcraft equivalents to LoL yet (nowhere to actually watch the games as a social event unless you attend the tournaments in person). I'm sorry. Who are you again? The Brood War scene outside of Korea never had the money/sponsorships that we have now. Everything was grassroots based and our scene was based on the love of the game. The amount of contributions we had, clan leagues, nation wars, etc. was ridiculous. Dweebs need to brush up on their material. You cannot compare the two scenes at all. So stop right there. It's funny how many times this has been brought up over the course of the last 6 months. You guys don't know our scene existed. Fine, but keep the tongue in cheek comments to yourself or at least try to look shit up before you start your rants.
what this guy said, and also, you don't play chess with 4 other people that get you out of trouble because you're not grandmaster level. in starcraft, one or two, you either got it or you don't. comparing those games with moba is doing mobas a favour. and i don't mean that in mean insulting way, it's just how it is.
on another note, even LoL players emphasise teamwork in their game, and to me, while those skills are nice to have, as an employer on a highest level of whichever industry, i would always hire a God with individual skills and let him supervise a group of minions (for which i would only then consider if they are team players). but for him - no. he's the Flash of my industry so he needs to have individual skills that outshine everyone and everything around him, in other words, i want the best of the best. that's what you get with starcraft, and don't get with moba. people brush mechanics aside like it's nothing, while it's actually most important part of the game, because they make it so hard. having strategy is nice, and consulting with four other people is okay. now considering that order and skillsets, i would say that's why broodwar is better than sc2, and sc2 better than any moba game.
but it's only how i see things, and nobody has to agree with it. i think i'll enjoy dota2, but i don't plan on saying it's better then sc2 because i like it more, same way i don't get mad for bw elitists comparing two starcrafts (/trashing sc2)
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On June 17 2012 02:11 Kaniol wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2012 01:54 Veldril wrote:
Best of luck to Grape and others for their stints in LoL.
What I worry though, is that DotA2 is almost out. With Valve upping their support in the game, I think it's really possible that DotA2 could become a dominant MOBA games around the world, and possibly overtakes LoL. And if that's happen, I just hope that Korean scene would be able to adapt to the rest of the world. Don't worry, LoL is so much more different in terms of many design choices that i'm pretty sure both games will coexist. At least i hope so since both games have different feeling and i'd REALLY hate to be limited to playing only one, which for some weird reason seems to be the goal of all people who hate either game
Yeah, I kinda can't understand why people has to like only one game and hate others...
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Kinda nice to see the LoL scene growing like this. I was amazed when I went to WCG (of my country) and LoL matches filled every seat.
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On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote:
I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis.
You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think.
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On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote:
I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think.
Pretty sure there are idiots in both fanbase.
Good luck to Grape ! The new format might be way too stressful for bw players 
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EPT
