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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:35 Darksoldierr wrote: Except the console fps players, we all hate them and think that they are skilless compared to true pc fps pros console fps players? console players ;p | ||
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flashimba
225 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote: Yea, I don't get why people think high level RTS mechanics are going to translate directly into MOBA skill. The games are different in both mechanics and gameplay dynamic. 1v1 vs 5v5. Hardcore multitasking and economy management vs. almost solely micromanagement based play. It's almost like thinking pro FPS players could transition to RTS because they can click accurately and click fast -.-;; Why does it even matter whether skills translate across or not? | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore  Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Maybe they feel mechanics and concentration are more important in a 1:1 RTS setting's entertainment, and the LoL and other such games have a higher emphasis on team work and team strategy and novel units which counteract any supposed lower mechanical demands they might have? It's harder to compare games of different genres, the same way it's harder to compare action movies to comedies. The qualities you look for in them are totally different. I would also say it's pretty likely people have a lot of other reasons for disliking SC2 other than mechanics, and that it's weird to generalise them to make them out to be hypocrits, when there isn't really much reason to believe those happy about LoL are the same people who hate SC2 purely because of MBS and stuff. So I guess it's pretty funny if you don't think much. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2014 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:43 Chef wrote: Maybe they feel mechanics and concentration are more important in a 1:1 RTS setting's entertainment, and the LoL and other such games have a higher emphasis on team work and team strategy and novel units which counteract any supposed lower mechanical demands they might have? It's harder to compare games of different genres, the same way it's harder to compare action movies to comedies. The qualities you look for in them are totally different. I would also say it's pretty likely people have a lot of other reasons for disliking SC2 other than mechanics, and that it's weird to generalise them to make them out to be hypocrits, when there isn't really much reason to believe those happy about LoL are the same people who hate SC2 purely because of MBS and stuff. So I guess it's pretty funny if you don't think much. Nah, they just hate how bad Sc2 is  User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:42 flashimba wrote: Why does it even matter whether skills translate across or not? It doesn't matter, but tons of people seem to think it does. 400 sc APM doesn't mean very much in DOTA or LOL | ||
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maximuspita
1093 Posts
This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2. I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant. Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game. | ||
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BtBEviL
Brazil35 Posts
LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. User was warned for this post | ||
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Fyodor
Canada971 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:18 maximuspita wrote: To make a level headed post, the assertion of the transition from BW to SC2 makes more sense because the underlining skills are similar is very weak and, I would argue, actually wrong. The thing is that most good BW pros have been playing BW for at least 3 years at the top level. This level demands an intuitive level of understanding. When you transition from this to a game that has a similar coat of paint but is foundational different (Such as BW->SC2), these differences 'feel' very wrong. This means that good habits before now are bad habits and these are a chore to unlearn. This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2. I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant. Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game. The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros. All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become. Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros. | ||
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
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hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:59 Fyodor wrote: The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros. All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become. Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros. No other RTS except WC3 has practice houses, people who have a salary off it, and people who practice as much as BW players do though. Even if the transition from BW to SC2 is harder because they have to unlearn things, BW players will do better than players from other games such as CnC 3 since they have more experience in pro gaming. | ||
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maximuspita
1093 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:59 Fyodor wrote: The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros. All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become. Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros. You see, that was the original reasoning of the Elephant in the Room article and it has failed. Why? Because almost every single person you listed began SC2 since its release (and some of them even from the beta). Take a look at the elo chart and notice how the top ranks are dominated by people who started early. Symbol is arguably the latest one to transition whose first recorded game was August 2011 (and he only played BW qualifiers, se he was not part of the team's A main roster, much like most of the top SC2 players right now). The second wave of BW progamers such as Fin and Hyun did not meet with the same success because they started late 2011. Learning a new game takes time,regardless of 'similar' mechanics, and especially if you have to unlearn bad habits and catch up to the new and ever progressing metagame. Now the current BW pros, they have to do this in very short manner and with the expectations to achieve the same results (in some cases higher) while at the same time diverting attention to BW games. The SC2 player base is saturated and the potential earnings are very low. They might not even have the same drive to learn SC2 as they did for BW. Note: I am not saying that current BW pros will never be great SC2 players. What I am saying is that the current condition makes it very hard for most of them to transition. | ||
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aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:54 WHyTePoWeR wrote: well it was sort of the same for bw, didn't stork mention how his slump happened because their team was forced to practice bw and he got bored and started playing wow? Also LoL is easier to switch to than sc2 because its an easy game to get into and its popular right now I don't think he was ever bored of bw. All bw pros became pros because they love the game. Sure, they play other games sometimes but their main focus is completely on bw. There's no way you can not love a game and practice 12hours a day. That's completely illogical. | ||
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Djeez
543 Posts
On June 16 2012 23:50 arb wrote: Probably because if you go into ranked with no experience, and feed horribly you arent only dropping your elo you're also losing the other 4 players on your team elo just because you were too awful to play some first. thats why. Obviously if the grind requirement to be able to do ranked was lower the default ELO would be lower than 1200 and/or would only match your with people new to ranked as well... It's a silly concept. The grind is already very tedious for runes, and the experience one is just totally useless in my eyes. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On June 17 2012 10:51 aupstar wrote: I don't think he was ever bored of bw. All bw pros became pros because they love the game. Sure, they play other games sometimes but their main focus is completely on bw. There's no way you can not love a game and practice 12hours a day. That's completely illogical. Anything you do over and over becomes boring after a while. Many progamers have mentioned how they started off loving BW, but once you get into a team it becomes more work and less about loving it. Also, Samsung Khan is notorious for its shorter practice schedules. And Stork is notorious for not practicing a lot even for the finals. In contrast to Flash and Jaedong, who in their first OSL wins against Stork basically practiced til their arms fell off. | ||
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jimmydu444
Canada250 Posts
Not that anyone cares, but I also find it ironic that the korean's most popular game is owned by a chinese company known for its instant messenger and shitty flash games. The battle for the korean computer game players is being fought. On one hand, you have the legendary company Blizzard who its but a shadow of its former self and is screwing up every chance they have to raise SC2 into the heights that BW once stood upon. On the other hand, you have a chinese company agressively throwing money into the Korean market to promote a clone of Dota created by Dota's worst designer to date. Whoever wins, we lose. And frankly, I don't really cares. Dota 2 is on the verge of being released and I have faith that the chinese Dota fanbase will switch over and not fall into the pit of despire that is LoL. | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 17 2012 10:51 aupstar wrote: I don't think he was ever bored of bw. All bw pros became pros because they love the game. Sure, they play other games sometimes but their main focus is completely on bw. There's no way you can not love a game and practice 12hours a day. That's completely illogical. Are you implying SC2 players love SC2? A lot of Korean teams practice as much as KeSPA teams nowadays. | ||
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SCMothership
United States187 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It is definitely the money and popularity | ||
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maximuspita
1093 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:05 SCMothership wrote: It is definitely the money and popularity Same reason why MC, Nestea, MvP, MKP, Idra, Tester, Artosis, Day9, Tasteless, etc moved to SC2 two years ago. They also could have enjoyed the game back then(and still enjoy playing SC2). Who knows? Edit: What I am saying people have to make the best possible economic decision with respect to the current situation. Right, for Kespa players, a BW->SC2 is not the obvious answer as many of you would like to believe. | ||
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aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:31 Ribbon wrote: Are you implying SC2 players love SC2? A lot of Korean teams practice as much as KeSPA teams nowadays. Well if no one is forcing them to play it then yes. | ||
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. | ||
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