I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved.
for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over.
I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved.
for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over.
I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once.
I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved.
for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over.
I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once.
It's definitely possible for them to succeed but it will take a long time for sure. I would say at least a year. The Startale team has players from sc2 and they are a long way away from being anywhere near the skill level of the current top teams, although they recently picked up a really good player/leader.
When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now).
Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore.
We also don't know how long and how much they have actually played LoL. My guess is that they are at least 1800+ elo. They must be pretty competitive if they actually decided to give up their progaming career and home to move in with each other to form a team and a new career in progaming. And with these guys work ethic they will most likely become relevant in the korean scene in the future. =)
I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved.
for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over.
I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once.
It's definitely possible for them to succeed but it will take a long time for sure. I would say at least a year. The Startale team has players from sc2 and they are a long way away from being anywhere near the skill level of the current top teams, although they recently picked up a really good player/leader.
When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now).
Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore.
Masters is about top 5% of the ladder (the actual number is slightly different per region, but roughly 5%).
On June 17 2012 08:18 maximuspita wrote: To make a level headed post, the assertion of the transition from BW to SC2 makes more sense because the underlining skills are similar is very weak and, I would argue, actually wrong. The thing is that most good BW pros have been playing BW for at least 3 years at the top level. This level demands an intuitive level of understanding. When you transition from this to a game that has a similar coat of paint but is foundational different (Such as BW->SC2), these differences 'feel' very wrong. This means that good habits before now are bad habits and these are a chore to unlearn.
This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2.
I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant.
Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc
Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game.
The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros.
All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become.
Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros.
You see, that was the original reasoning of the Elephant in the Room article and it has failed. Why? Because almost every single person you listed began SC2 since its release (and some of them even from the beta). Take a look at the elo chart and notice how the top ranks are dominated by people who started early.
There's some cart-before-the-horse there. Perhaps the ones who started early were the ones who really liked SC2, and thus practiced more. A lot of people from that era also dropped out (LiveForever, BitByBit, Fruitdealer. and to a lesser extent MC, who's no longer the Big Three with MVP and Nestea).
And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009.
I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved.
for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over.
I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once.
There's also less competition. Fewer BW pros aren going to LoL compared to SC2, and LoL doesn't have BW-style team houses with years of practice.
I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved.
for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over.
I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once.
It's definitely possible for them to succeed but it will take a long time for sure. I would say at least a year. The Startale team has players from sc2 and they are a long way away from being anywhere near the skill level of the current top teams, although they recently picked up a really good player/leader.
When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now).
Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore.
Masters is about top 5% of the ladder (the actual number is slightly different per region, but roughly 5%).
Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros.
There's some cart-before-the-horse there. Perhaps the ones who started early were the ones who really liked SC2, and thus practiced more. A lot of people from that era also dropped out (LiveForever, BitByBit, Fruitdealer. and to a lesser extent MC, who's no longer the Big Three with MVP and Nestea).
SC2 has a high attrition rate, just like BW. Agreed? Many of those retired were also ex BW progamers or BW hopefuls. Saying BW->SC2 automatically makes most sense is superficial reasoning. Especially considering that SC2 has established players. This makes it very hard to break in, unlike when things were undiscovered ground in 2010. Who would have thought Nestea would have dominated in SC2 from his BW pedigree? He doesn't have a single Proleague win. Fruitdealer had a 43% winrate in team leagues and quickly faded after his GSL gold. Success in BW doesn't automatically translate into success in SC2. Non-success in BW doesn't automatically translate into washing out of SC2.
And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009.
On June 18 2012 04:31 Ribbon wrote: Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros.
The difference between Grandmaster and Master league is impressively large; after 28 minutes, a Grandmaster player has on average 19 more workers than a Master level player. Comparable differences exist between Diamond and Platinum, Platinum and Gold, and Silver and Bronze. Meanwhile, I found no significant differences between Master and Diamond, and Gold and Silver.
SQ does quite a good job of separating the games of players from different leagues. And what’s particularly interesting is that the differences between leagues are greatest at the extremes. Despite Masters and above containing only 2% of the player population, there is a huge divide between the top of Grandmaster league and the bottom of Master league.
I think there's also a significant difference in macro between a pro in a ladder game and a pro in a tournament, but I don't have a link for that, so it might just be convential wisdom and not actually proven.
And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009.
What's your point?
That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2.
On June 18 2012 04:31 Ribbon wrote: Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros.
The difference between Grandmaster and Master league is impressively large; after 28 minutes, a Grandmaster player has on average 19 more workers than a Master level player. Comparable differences exist between Diamond and Platinum, Platinum and Gold, and Silver and Bronze. Meanwhile, I found no significant differences between Master and Diamond, and Gold and Silver.
SQ does quite a good job of separating the games of players from different leagues. And what’s particularly interesting is that the differences between leagues are greatest at the extremes. Despite Masters and above containing only 2% of the player population, there is a huge divide between the top of Grandmaster league and the bottom of Master league.
I think there's also a significant difference in macro between a pro in a ladder game and a pro in a tournament, but I don't have a link for that, so it might just be convential wisdom and not actually proven.
And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009.
What's your point?
That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2.
Fantasy already broke into the top player's club and Effort was like 80% there for beating Flash but then he decided to call in a quit. JangBi I would say at the moment is at the top.
Hypothetically, if Brood War were to continue, the players are still playing fulltime, and Effort didn't end up quitting and missed an entire shift of plays in PvZ. We would have Effort as the Zerg leader (Or SoulKey in today's case), Fantasy the Terran's forerunner (taking Flash's throne), and JangBi as the Protoss hope. That itself is a new era.
And then afterward, I can definitely see Mini improving on his nerves, Reality maybe finally able to break out because most of the game lost has been epicly close but I can see tons of good things from him. And as for Zerg, perhaps Hoejja if KT let the man practice for indies.
Yes it is harder to make it big in BW because of the fierce competition but also what attributes to it is the lack of practice for the game and series of other factors.
When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now).
Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore.
When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia).
That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2.
And this addresses my point how? It took TBLS years of training to get where they are and continued training to remain dominant. It is easier to break into LoL if one considers the difficulty alone. It is a better decision to try LoL given the popularity and sponsorship.
When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now).
Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore.
When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia).
No, he probably could. I'm solidy D on ICCUP and I'm platinum. But being Masters in SC2 is not at all like being A- in ICCUP, even if SC2 and BW were completely identical in every way, C-level ICCUP players would still be top masters, because top masters in SC2 - especially on NA - is not actually much of an achevement.
That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2.
And this addresses my point how? It took TBLS years of training to get where they are and continued training to remain dominant. It is easier to break into LoL if one considers the difficulty alone. It is a better decision to try LoL given the popularity and sponsorship.
Well, I don't think anyone who would be scared by how hard SC2 is to get into would've become a BW progamer in the first place, because it's even harder to get into BW. (On the other hand: If the BW scene was perfectly fine, would B-teamers still be jumping into LoL thinking it was easy money? Dunno.)
When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now).
Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore.
When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia). .
no, anybody who was c-/c skill (I don't mean proxy 2 gating to c- or dt rushing only or 9 pool speeding only) is going to be masters in sc2, so long as they play at least 3-5 weeks.
I skipped a season, played only in the lock of another season, and laddered back to masters in ~2 weeks (though I played a lot in that time). But I played sc2 during release and all. Someone brand new to sc2 could take like 4-5 weeks.
When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now).
Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore.
When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia).
No, he probably could. I'm solidy D on ICCUP and I'm platinum. But being Masters in SC2 is not at all like being A- in ICCUP, even if SC2 and BW were completely identical in every way, C-level ICCUP players would still be top masters, because top masters in SC2 - especially on NA - is not actually much of an achevement.
That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2.
And this addresses my point how? It took TBLS years of training to get where they are and continued training to remain dominant. It is easier to break into LoL if one considers the difficulty alone. It is a better decision to try LoL given the popularity and sponsorship.
Well, I don't think anyone who would be scared by how hard SC2 is to get into would've become a BW progamer in the first place, because it's even harder to get into BW. (On the other hand: If the BW scene was perfectly fine, would B-teamers still be jumping into LoL thinking it was easy money? Dunno.)
BW seems to be an enjoyable experience for these players, regardless of its difficulty. LoL seems to be an enjoyable experience regardless of learning new things(which is enjoyable on its own right). SC2 transition (considering ALL foreseeable parameters) seems to be very ambivalent to promising BW players such as Grape, Rush, Brave, etc.
In such high competitive fields, transferable skills matter little while drive and passion much more. You won't have either if you do not enjoy what you are doing. Saying it makes much more sense just because of similar mechanics and not considering other options as I've presented is just shallow thinking.
As someone else pointed out, LoL is 2nd most played game in PC Bangs. BW still ranks 6th. SC2 doesn't rank top 10. Maybe they honestly don't like it (It could have been Blizzard's horrible mismanagement but given the age I'd think it is out of there grasp). Maybe they find the transition stressful enough to retire. Current Kespa players have invested much time to play a game they love and are being transferred to a game we don't know if they even like.
On June 18 2012 04:31 Ribbon wrote: Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros.
The difference between Grandmaster and Master league is impressively large; after 28 minutes, a Grandmaster player has on average 19 more workers than a Master level player. Comparable differences exist between Diamond and Platinum, Platinum and Gold, and Silver and Bronze. Meanwhile, I found no significant differences between Master and Diamond, and Gold and Silver.
SQ does quite a good job of separating the games of players from different leagues. And what’s particularly interesting is that the differences between leagues are greatest at the extremes. Despite Masters and above containing only 2% of the player population, there is a huge divide between the top of Grandmaster league and the bottom of Master league.
I think there's also a significant difference in macro between a pro in a ladder game and a pro in a tournament, but I don't have a link for that, so it might just be convential wisdom and not actually proven.
And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009.
What's your point?
That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2.
LoL is easy and very fun, you could go hours and hours at it without feeling like you're working. And due to the nature of team games, every win is your contribution and every loss is not your fault. No pressure = you can keep going at it
On June 18 2012 14:07 iky43210 wrote: starcraft is hard and tiring, not alot of fun.
This isn't true when you're playing casually, and IS true when you're playing 14 hours a day with your job on the line. Which means even if BW players like LoL now, they might not like it 800 gameplay hours from now.
On June 18 2012 14:07 iky43210 wrote: starcraft is hard and tiring, not alot of fun.
LoL is easy and very fun, you could go hours and hours at it without feeling like you're working. And due to the nature of team games, every win is your contribution and every loss is not your fault. No pressure = you can keep going at it
I can agree with the fact that starcraft is hard and tiring, but the "not alot of fun" is something that isn't true for everyone. Different people thrive in different scenario's. In sc2, you are in control of your own performance and that directly translates into how much succes you have. Your succes is not dependent on the people in your team like in DOTA like games and CS, factors that you, for the most part, cannot control. This can be very very frustrating and stressful.
EPT
