In an interview with FOMOS (for copyright reasons I can't translate on Teamliquid), he revealed that he will be moving into a house with


Made a note of this in the Roster post, but since it's pretty big I made a new thread for it.
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GTR
51438 Posts
In an interview with FOMOS (for copyright reasons I can't translate on Teamliquid), he revealed that he will be moving into a house with ![]() ![]() Made a note of this in the Roster post, but since it's pretty big I made a new thread for it. | ||
LeapofFaith
United States446 Posts
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? it's big and there's money to be made | ||
Aerisky
United States12129 Posts
Well, best of luck to Brave!! Even in LoL, show that you Khan do it! | ||
D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It's EZ and they want fame/money in korea. | ||
Kaal
Djibouti2514 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? Because LoL is fun and they don't like SC2/are tired of SC. Probably tired of SC, mostly. | ||
blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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SagaZ
France3460 Posts
hope they do well in LoL! | ||
HaXXspetten
Sweden15718 Posts
Oh well, gl in the future. | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
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1ntrigue
Australia948 Posts
Many BW progamers are moving to LoL because they enjoy playing it. Many notable BW and SC2 progamers play LoL during their practice breaks. For this generation of progamers who became progamers because they actually enjoyed playing BW but are averse to SC2, LoL is a pretty rosy option, especially with the huge money and growing professionalism involved. | ||
hydrogg
United States377 Posts
[B]On June 15 2012 17:07 GTR wrote:[/B Made a note of this in the Roster post, but since it's pretty big I made a new thread for it. Can you link to the Rolster post? edit: nvm roster post not kt rolster post | ||
Trowa127
United Kingdom1230 Posts
Yay so at least I wasn't wrong D: I'll be following this very closely! GLGL! | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
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M2
Bulgaria4116 Posts
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more His decision man and it's possible that Brave also was part of this and influence grape to come over to LoL because sc2 isn't the same as broodwar .Grape and brave probably thinks that sc2 is not as fun as bw ? It's possible ... | ||
TaShadan
Germany1969 Posts
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infinitestory
United States4053 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. | ||
LeLfe
France3160 Posts
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Zaphid
Czech Republic1860 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. I'd argue that experience and knowledge plays far bigger role in Dota/Lol, which is something they don't have right now. Throw in the fact that the balance in LoL shifts with every patch, you have quite volatile environment to hone your mechanics. | ||
ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
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nitdkim
1264 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:33 Zaphid wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. I'd argue that experience and knowledge plays far bigger role in Dota/Lol, which is something they don't have right now. Throw in the fact that the balance in LoL shifts with every patch, you have quite volatile environment to hone your mechanics. balance doesn't affect mechanics lol... | ||
Kittan
Poland3999 Posts
I'm not surprised, it was established for some time that the avenue for retirement for BW pros is not SCToo, but LoL instead. Guess we know now where Stork is gonna go in the future xD On June 15 2012 18:39 ShadeR wrote: Samsung. Sponsor them! This is a good idea actually, since LoL is very big in Korea it'd make a lot of sense for Samsung to sponsor a team. | ||
hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:33 Zaphid wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. I'd argue that experience and knowledge plays far bigger role in Dota/Lol, which is something they don't have right now. Throw in the fact that the balance in LoL shifts with every patch, you have quite volatile environment to hone your mechanics. Isn't that also true of SC2 though? They don't have much knowledge of SC2 either right now, there are constant balance patches in SC2, and HOTS and LOTV are still to be released. | ||
Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:42 hydrogg wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:33 Zaphid wrote: On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. I'd argue that experience and knowledge plays far bigger role in Dota/Lol, which is something they don't have right now. Throw in the fact that the balance in LoL shifts with every patch, you have quite volatile environment to hone your mechanics. Isn't that also true of SC2 though? They don't have much knowledge of SC2 either right now, there are constant balance patches in SC2, and HOTS and LOTV are still to be released. SC2: Small balance adjustments every 2 month. LoL: Significant balance changes (especially with new champs) about every 2 weeks. Quite the difference. Of course HotS and LotV will really screw balance over, but it's not like expansions are released all the time. So many people switching to LoL makes me a sad pandabearguy ![]() The game is fun to play, yes, but winning 1v1 games feels a lot better... then again, losing in 1v1 games feels a lot worse, too, while in MOBA you can always blame it on your teammates. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
also the delight winning games 1v1 as opposed to 5v5 is a matter of opinion is it not? I like celebrating my victory with the teammates I have more then I do alone. | ||
teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? after such a stressful career they choose something relaxed and easy to make money off | ||
Black[CAT]
Malaysia2589 Posts
![]() LoL is pretty fun, tried it out, but my allegiance is to Dota2. | ||
Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. pure mechanics don't have as much impact on the game as you seem to be thinking. the reason the skill cap hasn't been hit already is because it requires 5 people to function well together as opposed to 1 person. you already have LoL players with top notch mechanics but you still see them fail repeatedly during tournaments such as doublelift who can cs perfectly and has some of the best positioning abilities in the world but continues to be completely retarded past laning phase without his team telling him what to do and when to do it | ||
letian
Germany4221 Posts
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whirlpool
2788 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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nayumi
Australia6499 Posts
On June 15 2012 19:21 Morfildur wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:42 hydrogg wrote: On June 15 2012 18:33 Zaphid wrote: On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. I'd argue that experience and knowledge plays far bigger role in Dota/Lol, which is something they don't have right now. Throw in the fact that the balance in LoL shifts with every patch, you have quite volatile environment to hone your mechanics. Isn't that also true of SC2 though? They don't have much knowledge of SC2 either right now, there are constant balance patches in SC2, and HOTS and LOTV are still to be released. SC2: Small balance adjustments every 2 month. LoL: Significant balance changes (especially with new champs) about every 2 weeks. Quite the difference. Of course HotS and LotV will really screw balance over, but it's not like expansions are released all the time. So many people switching to LoL makes me a sad pandabearguy ![]() The game is fun to play, yes, but winning 1v1 games feels a lot better... then again, losing in 1v1 games feels a lot worse, too, while in MOBA you can always blame it on your teammates. It's always the teammate's fault whenever I loses a MOBA. At least it helps me sleep every night. | ||
kongoline
6318 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
I know people look down on LoL but whatever its is just respect his decision. | ||
Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
Can't blame em. | ||
Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
Samsung to sponsor this team! | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:39 ShadeR wrote: Samsung. Sponsor them! ya, CJ has LoL team why can't Samsung have one too, and while they are at it KT LoL team please with YellOw and Reach as Coaches. | ||
boxturtle
United States224 Posts
It'd be worse if he was just sitting around being bad at SC2 and hating it before finally getting a new non-e-sports job. I'm happy for him. It also must be a nice change of pace from the rigorous teamhouse regimen to start a team with your friends. I hope he enjoys LoL and succeeds. | ||
Neo7
United States922 Posts
On June 15 2012 19:45 letian wrote: I have a feeling that, it is just a beginning of the great exodus. If SC2 won't get any significant spectator popularity soon, which I think it doesn't, we know how it will all end. If you're comparing it to LoL, you will be waiting for an extremely long time. I seriously doubt that SC2 will come close to LoL's popularity. Too many damaging factors happened in the StarCraft scene. Since Brood War is now on its death bed and scheduled to have the plug pulled, you can expect much more players defecting to LoL. | ||
bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. I dont know jack about LoL, but this post somehow is incredibly awesome for me. Thank you. | ||
Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. Mechanics in LoL? I'd imagine they switch to LoL because they don't have to practice so much coupled with it's popularity. | ||
Wala.Revolution
7582 Posts
Best of luck to Grape. | ||
Ryo
8787 Posts
![]() Personally I think it's a clever move. On June 15 2012 19:45 letian wrote: I have a feeling that, it is just a beginning of the great exodus. If SC2 won't get any significant spectator popularity soon, which I think it doesn't, we know how it will all end. Perhaps. | ||
SKDN
Sweden243 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:12 ]343[ wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? it's big and there's money to be made Same reasons for why guys were switching to other games. We knew something like this would happen. It was a question of whom. Stork already changed his mind and decided to continue with SC2 for a little longer instead of going to LoL like he said he was considering. On June 15 2012 20:51 bgx wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:21 infinitestory wrote: On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Current LoL players aren't even close to demonstrating where the skill cap is for the game, and one reason for that is that most current LoL players don't really have outstanding mechanical ability. Most of the players who are known for their mechanics are either Chinese or Korean, and it seems fitting or likely that BW players would be able to demonstrate how much LoL skill can really be derived from blindingly fast mechanics and reaction time. I dont know jack about LoL, but this post somehow is incredibly awesome for me. Thank you. It is so awkward for me to hear someone describe a players mechanics in LoL. O-O I mean I've been watching the bloody thing to try and understand it but that's just watching. I've never played Dota or anything of this sort. It just doesn't tickle my fancy, so I really don't know. | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:19 SKDN wrote: Comparing SC2 to LoL is like comparing boxing to soccer, Even if i think LoL requires less "skill" teamwork is very important and they might be burnt out from Broodwar and want something more causal on mechanics? Well they both fit in to one category "Casual friendly" :D | ||
Fleuria
England466 Posts
gl to these guys | ||
Garmer
1286 Posts
On June 15 2012 20:18 Gamegene wrote: LoL >>>>>>>>>> SC2 just in terms of popularity. Can't blame em. ok, but it's terrible to watch, at least for me | ||
Gamegene
United States8308 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:27 Garmer wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 20:18 Gamegene wrote: LoL >>>>>>>>>> SC2 just in terms of popularity. Can't blame em. ok, but it's terrible to watch, at least for me opinions! | ||
bearbuddy
3442 Posts
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:35 bearbuddy wrote: Maybe SC2 is simply too saturated? There's already an established SC2 scene, and basically all the remaining BW players are switching to SC2. On the other hand, LoL is pretty fresh and is growing at a rapid rate. You can't say SC2 is "saturated" in Korean scene if it didn't have a huge breakout yet, compared to LoL which had higher numbers in attendance in its first season (Champions). | ||
Lucumo
6850 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:21 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:19 SKDN wrote: Comparing SC2 to LoL is like comparing boxing to soccer, Even if i think LoL requires less "skill" teamwork is very important and they might be burnt out from Broodwar and want something more causal on mechanics? Well they both fit in to one category "Casual friendly" :D And they both relate to their better parts in the same way(SC2<-->BW, LoL<-->DotA). Too bad it's not DotA which got popular in Korea. The Chinese did a bad job in spreading the love :< | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
I also think another possibility is that SC2 is a more established scene, with a ton of great players already fighting for prize/sponsorship money. This isn't like BW where you know being among the best kespa players make you the best in the world. Overall, SC2 is a pretty risky transition for a lot of players. Khan players just seem to have figured this out quicker than others. Probably due to their more relaxed, open atmosphere. | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:28 Gamegene wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:27 Garmer wrote: On June 15 2012 20:18 Gamegene wrote: LoL >>>>>>>>>> SC2 just in terms of popularity. Can't blame em. ok, but it's terrible to watch, at least for me opinions! No shit; you would think people would get over it already. If you don't like it fine. Everyone has their own preferences. Doesn't mean you have to go out of your way to bitch and moan about it. Just like BW and SC2 are worlds apart too even though they're both branded RTS games. | ||
Rustug
1488 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:39 supernovamaniac wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:35 bearbuddy wrote: Maybe SC2 is simply too saturated? There's already an established SC2 scene, and basically all the remaining BW players are switching to SC2. On the other hand, LoL is pretty fresh and is growing at a rapid rate. You can't say SC2 is "saturated" in Korean scene if it didn't have a huge breakout yet, compared to LoL which had higher numbers in attendance in its first season (Champions). The thing is you can keep expecting/anticipating this all you want. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. You cannot go back in history and rewrite time man. | ||
Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
...what a terrible news.. | ||
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? | ||
Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? NaDa made a LoL commercial, that's hardly addicted lol. He's a SC2 pro and has been since the game's release. | ||
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? Huh? That has nothing to do with what I posted at all -_-;; You are trying to make it look like I have something against LOL (??) for some unknown reason. I'm wondering why KHAN team has more trouble with the transition compared to the other teams... | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
So nada has done one promotion for LoL and Yellow too . Now I have to wait one from REACH !. Go Go GO storm Zerg fighting. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? They don't have the most trouble with SC2 transition. Samsung KHAN is the team with the most freedom under Kespa's juristiction. They respect the decisions of its player. They can play any games they wish to play and not forced under any regimes. And thus the players found a new love in LoL. That's why they made the switch. And beside Samsung is currently number 2 in the SPL rankings with SCtoo taking the majority of the time slot. So I wouldn't worry too much about them. | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:01 SarcasmMonster wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? Huh? That has nothing to do with what I posted at all -_-;; You are trying to make it look like I have something against LOL (??) for some unknown reason. I'm wondering why KHAN team has more trouble with the transition compared to the other teams... They didn't turn focus until much later unlike the other teams and I wouldn't knock them yet. You're spewing off bullshit. You have no idea just like I have no idea what Grape's reasons were. | ||
OpticalShot
Canada6330 Posts
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:12 Aerisky wrote: Wow, really?! Well, best of luck to Brave!! Even in LoL, show that you Khan do it! i am a big fan of puns, and i'm sad that everyone else skimmed over this! | ||
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:05 StarStruck wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:01 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? Huh? That has nothing to do with what I posted at all -_-;; You are trying to make it look like I have something against LOL (??) for some unknown reason. I'm wondering why KHAN team has more trouble with the transition compared to the other teams... They didn't turn focus until much later unlike the other teams and I wouldn't knock them yet. You're spewing off bullshit. You have no idea just like I have no idea what Grape's reasons were. What bullshit am I spewing? I didn't say anything about Grape. All I said was that the team itself is having a hard time with the transition (ie. due to losing players), whereas the other teams are having a easier time maintaining players. Don't be so pointlessly hateful. | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:11 SarcasmMonster wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:05 StarStruck wrote: On June 15 2012 22:01 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? Huh? That has nothing to do with what I posted at all -_-;; You are trying to make it look like I have something against LOL (??) for some unknown reason. I'm wondering why KHAN team has more trouble with the transition compared to the other teams... They didn't turn focus until much later unlike the other teams and I wouldn't knock them yet. You're spewing off bullshit. You have no idea just like I have no idea what Grape's reasons were. What bullshit am I spewing? I didn't say anything about Grape. All I said was that the team itself is having a hard time with the transition (ie. due to losing players), whereas the other teams are having a easier time maintaining players. Don't be so pointlessly hateful. baubo actually in some way answers your curiosity. On June 15 2012 21:44 baubo wrote: All this talk of lol being casual and less stressful makes no sense. What makes progaming so stressful isn't so much the game itself but rather the competition. If there's enough money in the scene, you'll have people practice 10hours a day working to become the best at the game. Even if mechanically LoL isn't on par with BW, they still need to practice teamwork and other skills to give them an edge. So either these guys think there's more money in LoL, or they like the game more than SC2. I also think another possibility is that SC2 is a more established scene, with a ton of great players already fighting for prize/sponsorship money. This isn't like BW where you know being among the best kespa players make you the best in the world. Overall, SC2 is a pretty risky transition for a lot of players. Khan players just seem to have figured this out quicker than others. Probably due to their more relaxed, open atmosphere. edit : bolded so you can save your time :D | ||
empty.bottle
685 Posts
All the smart players are doing that, good move Grape! I hope you do well. | ||
Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
LoL is more fun to play for the players then Starcraft. Also cause it's more forgiving and less hardcore then SC. If you can make more money playing LoL I can only see benefits for these players. | ||
Ryo
8787 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:21 Ryo wrote: Also makes me wonder who else is practicing LoL, waiting for the right time to switch games. It's obvious the only person who I can think will make the switch is .... + Show Spoiler + | ||
soujiro_
Uruguay5195 Posts
hope more players do the same :p | ||
Ryo
8787 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:23 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:21 Ryo wrote: Also makes me wonder who else is practicing LoL, waiting for the right time to switch games. It's obvious the only person who I can think will make the switch is .... + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPDMv1Nl3D8&feature=player_embedded I mean, other than Khan players. There are a bunch of first teamers that we haven't seen play since the start of this season. Edit: Where, Rush and the other Woongjin zerg could possibly switch. But I'm more curious about some other players who haven't been left out of the rosters yet. I guess we'll find out more in the next month or two. | ||
smekz
Portugal503 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? seriously dude? you're being kinda pathetic with all that lol promoting, i wonder why you don't post as much in lol section as you do in starcraft ones >.> nada got paid to do a comercial, i would say sonic adventures is the next e-sports if i got paid to do it. reach said he knew nothing abut lol when he joined the team, he wasn't even considering it when he left KT. just stop dude. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:26 Ryo wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:23 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 22:21 Ryo wrote: Also makes me wonder who else is practicing LoL, waiting for the right time to switch games. It's obvious the only person who I can think will make the switch is .... + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPDMv1Nl3D8&feature=player_embedded I mean, other than Khan players. There are a bunch of first teamers that we haven't seen play since the start of this season. Edit: Where, Rush and the other Woongjin zerg could possibly switch. But I'm more curious about some other players who haven't been left out of the rosters yet. I guess we'll find out more in the next month or two. Be more specific? | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:28 smekz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? seriously dude? you're being kinda pathetic with all that lol promoting, i wonder why you don't post as much in lol section as you do in starcraft ones >.> nada got paid to do a comercial, i would say sonic adventures is the next e-sports if i got paid to do it. reach said he knew nothing abut lol when he joined the team, he wasn't even considering it when he left KT. just stop dude. I don't post in LoL forum that doesn't mean I don't watch my friends play the game ? Well it's quite a legitimate question i am putting forth here . If nada and yellow was paid to do so it probably would feel fake or they are just damn good actors at it and reach him self said that he was not sure about returning to e-sport however in the end he came back for LoL . Which must be something that LoL has or the coach of that LoL team has some really good persuading skill . I will be honest here I rather watch LoL than sc2 happy now ? | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:04 Sawamura wrote: O.O really ?? reach is playing LoL right now to learn more about it since he is managing a LoL team and so is yellow . Nada sound so enthusiastic when he talk about LoL . So nada has done one promotion for LoL and Yellow too . Now I have to wait one from REACH !. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r2Q6o_3YGQ&feature=player_embedded Go Go GO storm Zerg fighting. Is there a transcript for what he says in this video? | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:32 maximuspita wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:04 Sawamura wrote: O.O really ?? reach is playing LoL right now to learn more about it since he is managing a LoL team and so is yellow . Nada sound so enthusiastic when he talk about LoL . So nada has done one promotion for LoL and Yellow too . Now I have to wait one from REACH !. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-r2Q6o_3YGQ&feature=player_embedded Go Go GO storm Zerg fighting. Is there a transcript for what he says in this video? Sadly nada promotion for LoL only was the one translated and none as far as I know for yellow. | ||
Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:28 smekz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? seriously dude? you're being kinda pathetic with all that lol promoting, i wonder why you don't post as much in lol section as you do in starcraft ones >.> nada got paid to do a comercial, i would say sonic adventures is the next e-sports if i got paid to do it. reach said he knew nothing abut lol when he joined the team, he wasn't even considering it when he left KT. just stop dude. Don't mind him dude. His hatred for sc2 overshadows everything else so he takes a jab at it every chance he gets. Just let him post his bs, I doubt no one really bother to care anymore because it has been going on for a while and it is pretty tiring. | ||
smekz
Portugal503 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:32 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:28 smekz wrote: On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? seriously dude? you're being kinda pathetic with all that lol promoting, i wonder why you don't post as much in lol section as you do in starcraft ones >.> nada got paid to do a comercial, i would say sonic adventures is the next e-sports if i got paid to do it. reach said he knew nothing abut lol when he joined the team, he wasn't even considering it when he left KT. just stop dude. I don't post in LoL forum that doesn't mean I don't watch my friends play the game ? Well it's quite a legitimate question i am putting forth here . If nada and yellow was paid to do so it probably would feel fake or they are just damn good actors at it and reach him self said that he was not sure about returning to e-sport however in the end he came back for LoL . Which must be something that LoL has or the coach of that LoL team has some really good persuading skill . I will be honest here I rather watch LoL than sc2 happy now ? watching your friends play the game probably isn't the best insight of the progaming scene, you know. oh you really think they did the commercials for free just to spread their love for the game? and reach came back cuz the sponsor of the team talked him into it, not cuz he got addicted to lol as you said, you are just making stupid statements/assumptions. edit: best* not better | ||
Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:23 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:21 Ryo wrote: Also makes me wonder who else is practicing LoL, waiting for the right time to switch games. It's obvious the only person who I can think will make the switch is .... + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPDMv1Nl3D8&feature=player_embedded Can we stop citing the same, the same, the same response from half a year ago. It has low relevance in present time, at the time of interview Kespa teams did not even practice SC2. | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:39 smekz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:32 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 22:28 smekz wrote: On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? seriously dude? you're being kinda pathetic with all that lol promoting, i wonder why you don't post as much in lol section as you do in starcraft ones >.> nada got paid to do a comercial, i would say sonic adventures is the next e-sports if i got paid to do it. reach said he knew nothing abut lol when he joined the team, he wasn't even considering it when he left KT. just stop dude. I don't post in LoL forum that doesn't mean I don't watch my friends play the game ? Well it's quite a legitimate question i am putting forth here . If nada and yellow was paid to do so it probably would feel fake or they are just damn good actors at it and reach him self said that he was not sure about returning to e-sport however in the end he came back for LoL . Which must be something that LoL has or the coach of that LoL team has some really good persuading skill . I will be honest here I rather watch LoL than sc2 happy now ? watching your friends play the game probably isn't the better insight of the progaming scene, you know. oh you really think they did the commercials for free just to spread their love for the game? and reach came back cuz the sponsor of the team talked him into it, not cuz he got addicted to lol as you said, you are just making stupid statements/assumptions. Friends influence what games I play and it doesn't have to do with programing scene you know ? I like the game that I think it's fun and some how I see LoL is a much more fun game because it's much more a sociable experience 5v5 with buddies than playing sc2 alone . Hey why not ? If nada and yellow were to be giving free promotions for the game and a little incentives for extra promotion of the game I still call it free promotions. Okay I must be a noob here because the person who I wanted to add in to the list of addicted lol (previous bw gamers ) were Kim carrier . So how is it now ? | ||
Ryo
8787 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:30 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:26 Ryo wrote: On June 15 2012 22:23 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 22:21 Ryo wrote: Also makes me wonder who else is practicing LoL, waiting for the right time to switch games. It's obvious the only person who I can think will make the switch is .... + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPDMv1Nl3D8&feature=player_embedded I mean, other than Khan players. There are a bunch of first teamers that we haven't seen play since the start of this season. Edit: Where, Rush and the other Woongjin zerg could possibly switch. But I'm more curious about some other players who haven't been left out of the rosters yet. I guess we'll find out more in the next month or two. Be more specific? Among the more well known ones, Mind and Tyson. | ||
smekz
Portugal503 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:42 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:39 smekz wrote: On June 15 2012 22:32 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 22:28 smekz wrote: On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? seriously dude? you're being kinda pathetic with all that lol promoting, i wonder why you don't post as much in lol section as you do in starcraft ones >.> nada got paid to do a comercial, i would say sonic adventures is the next e-sports if i got paid to do it. reach said he knew nothing abut lol when he joined the team, he wasn't even considering it when he left KT. just stop dude. I don't post in LoL forum that doesn't mean I don't watch my friends play the game ? Well it's quite a legitimate question i am putting forth here . If nada and yellow was paid to do so it probably would feel fake or they are just damn good actors at it and reach him self said that he was not sure about returning to e-sport however in the end he came back for LoL . Which must be something that LoL has or the coach of that LoL team has some really good persuading skill . I will be honest here I rather watch LoL than sc2 happy now ? watching your friends play the game probably isn't the better insight of the progaming scene, you know. oh you really think they did the commercials for free just to spread their love for the game? and reach came back cuz the sponsor of the team talked him into it, not cuz he got addicted to lol as you said, you are just making stupid statements/assumptions. Friends influence what games I play and it doesn't have to do with programing scene you know ? I like the game that I think it's fun and some how I see LoL is a much more fun game because it's much more a sociable experience 5v5 with buddies than playing sc2 alone . Hey why not ? If nada and yellow were to be giving free promotions for the game and a little incentives for extra promotion of the game I still call it free promotions. Okay I must be a noob here because the person who I wanted to add in to the list of addicted lol (previous bw gamers ) were Kim carrier . So how is it now ? you are the "noob" here because you're making no sense at all and you're just promoting lol with pointless arguments, and when i pointed that you don't know what you were talking about you just came up other stories. i rest my case and won't bother answer your foolishness anymore. i actually like lol but your talk is just c-r-a-p. | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:55 smekz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 22:42 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 22:39 smekz wrote: On June 15 2012 22:32 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 22:28 smekz wrote: On June 15 2012 21:59 Sawamura wrote: On June 15 2012 21:54 SarcasmMonster wrote: Seems like KHAN players are the ones having the most trouble with SC2 transition. Wonder why? I wonder why yellow,nada and reach got so addicted to LoL ? . Why ?? seriously dude? you're being kinda pathetic with all that lol promoting, i wonder why you don't post as much in lol section as you do in starcraft ones >.> nada got paid to do a comercial, i would say sonic adventures is the next e-sports if i got paid to do it. reach said he knew nothing abut lol when he joined the team, he wasn't even considering it when he left KT. just stop dude. I don't post in LoL forum that doesn't mean I don't watch my friends play the game ? Well it's quite a legitimate question i am putting forth here . If nada and yellow was paid to do so it probably would feel fake or they are just damn good actors at it and reach him self said that he was not sure about returning to e-sport however in the end he came back for LoL . Which must be something that LoL has or the coach of that LoL team has some really good persuading skill . I will be honest here I rather watch LoL than sc2 happy now ? watching your friends play the game probably isn't the better insight of the progaming scene, you know. oh you really think they did the commercials for free just to spread their love for the game? and reach came back cuz the sponsor of the team talked him into it, not cuz he got addicted to lol as you said, you are just making stupid statements/assumptions. Friends influence what games I play and it doesn't have to do with programing scene you know ? I like the game that I think it's fun and some how I see LoL is a much more fun game because it's much more a sociable experience 5v5 with buddies than playing sc2 alone . Hey why not ? If nada and yellow were to be giving free promotions for the game and a little incentives for extra promotion of the game I still call it free promotions. Okay I must be a noob here because the person who I wanted to add in to the list of addicted lol (previous bw gamers ) were Kim carrier . So how is it now ? you are the "noob" here because you're making no sense at all and you're just promoting lol with pointless arguments, and when i pointed that you don't know what you were talking about you just came up other stories. i rest my case and won't bother answer your foolishness anymore. i actually like lol but your talk is just c-r-a-p. Wasn't promoting lol with pointless argument though was just stating the fact that ex bw players are in to the scene even if you like it or don't. | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 15 2012 22:42 Incognoto wrote: LoL isn't at all as a bad as many haters portray it. Agreed, personally i prefer BW and Sc2, but i do like to watch LoL too ( played it for a month or so, and lot of original dota back then ), its fun game | ||
TheRealNanMan
United States1471 Posts
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XenOmega
Canada2822 Posts
BUT, its also a team game. So you can be the best player in the world, but if your team can't work together, then you will probably lose (this is why, sometimes with insane lead, team will lose because as a team they make mistakes) In this regard, LoL is much closer to a team sport. | ||
supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:52 StarStruck wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:39 supernovamaniac wrote: On June 15 2012 21:35 bearbuddy wrote: Maybe SC2 is simply too saturated? There's already an established SC2 scene, and basically all the remaining BW players are switching to SC2. On the other hand, LoL is pretty fresh and is growing at a rapid rate. You can't say SC2 is "saturated" in Korean scene if it didn't have a huge breakout yet, compared to LoL which had higher numbers in attendance in its first season (Champions). The thing is you can keep expecting/anticipating this all you want. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. You cannot go back in history and rewrite time man. Anticipating what? Because (assuming that you're saying I can anticipate LoL to succeed huge) the numbers already show that Korean fans want to watch LoL instead of SC2 at this moment. Sure, the upcoming expansion and other things might change things, but like you said, you cannot go back in history and rewrite time. And what did the previous tournaments showed us? LoL > BW > SC2 in terms of popularity in Korea atm. | ||
archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Jugan
United States1566 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:28 Shock710 wrote: LoL over sc2....?, T_T grape....u were getting better at bw! arrggg....dont leave *sniff*.... Unfortunately, I think BW left first ![]() | ||
Rostam
United States2552 Posts
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
But overall, MOBAs are MUCH less mechanically demanding than an RTS like BW or even SC2. You aren't required to multitask, you don't have to play at 300+ APM, you always have teammates to rely on. In my mind, it's quite possible that they are picking up LoL because it's new and popular but also because it won't destroy their hands and wrists like BW/SC2. | ||
SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
I really want SC2 to fail with DOTA 2 coming soon or even to LoL .. now that would be the ultimate irony ! Yes I'm still bitter and pissed that SC2 is replacing BW :[ | ||
NonFactor
Sweden698 Posts
On June 15 2012 23:36 archonOOid wrote: Why aren't Koreans picking up dota2 as money can be made there too? Is it because of the tough competition? Why aren't Koreans picking up hockey? As money can be made there too? The reason is simple, LoL has gained a dominant position in Korea currently and in the DOMESTIC market, there will be more money to be made then through LoL. It's simply the more popular game. If the current trend continues LoL will be the biggest e-sport in korea. It has beat out Dota 2. And yes, I'm aware Dota 2 is still ''in beta'', but they've been trying to promote e-sports for a long time now, so the chances of anything changing when Dota finally ''releases'' are slim. | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 15 2012 23:56 NonFactor wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 23:36 archonOOid wrote: Why aren't Koreans picking up dota2 as money can be made there too? Is it because of the tough competition? Why aren't Koreans picking up hockey? As money can be made there too? The reason is simple, LoL has gained a dominant position in Korea currently and in the DOMESTIC market, there will be more money to be made then through LoL. It's simply the more popular game. If the current trend continues LoL will be the biggest e-sport in korea. It has beat out Dota 2. And yes, I'm aware Dota 2 is still ''in beta'', but they've been trying to promote e-sports for a long time now, so the chances of anything changing when Dota finally ''releases'' are slim. If this goes on, LoL will be THE esport on the whole planet, that games popularity is trough the roof | ||
Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On June 15 2012 23:58 Darksoldierr wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 23:56 NonFactor wrote: On June 15 2012 23:36 archonOOid wrote: Why aren't Koreans picking up dota2 as money can be made there too? Is it because of the tough competition? Why aren't Koreans picking up hockey? As money can be made there too? The reason is simple, LoL has gained a dominant position in Korea currently and in the DOMESTIC market, there will be more money to be made then through LoL. It's simply the more popular game. If the current trend continues LoL will be the biggest e-sport in korea. It has beat out Dota 2. And yes, I'm aware Dota 2 is still ''in beta'', but they've been trying to promote e-sports for a long time now, so the chances of anything changing when Dota finally ''releases'' are slim. If this goes on, LoL will be THE esport on the whole planet, that games popularity is trough the roof Yup, Riot has quite the efficient marketing department, it's really astounding how quickly that game got popular once they actively started promoting it. Blizzard (and in case of Dota 2 Valve) really need to step up their game to have a chance at keeping up. | ||
brolaf
291 Posts
On June 15 2012 21:52 StarStruck wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:39 supernovamaniac wrote: On June 15 2012 21:35 bearbuddy wrote: Maybe SC2 is simply too saturated? There's already an established SC2 scene, and basically all the remaining BW players are switching to SC2. On the other hand, LoL is pretty fresh and is growing at a rapid rate. You can't say SC2 is "saturated" in Korean scene if it didn't have a huge breakout yet, compared to LoL which had higher numbers in attendance in its first season (Champions). The thing is you can keep expecting/anticipating this all you want. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. You cannot go back in history and rewrite time man. Yeah.. Lol is just too damn addictive, lol. Hard to imagine other games challenging it at the moment | ||
maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? I think thats a good decision as much as I like SC2 and dislike LoL I think the future of esports is LoL / Dota 2 for the next few years, | ||
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:15 brolaf wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 21:52 StarStruck wrote: On June 15 2012 21:39 supernovamaniac wrote: On June 15 2012 21:35 bearbuddy wrote: Maybe SC2 is simply too saturated? There's already an established SC2 scene, and basically all the remaining BW players are switching to SC2. On the other hand, LoL is pretty fresh and is growing at a rapid rate. You can't say SC2 is "saturated" in Korean scene if it didn't have a huge breakout yet, compared to LoL which had higher numbers in attendance in its first season (Champions). The thing is you can keep expecting/anticipating this all you want. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. You cannot go back in history and rewrite time man. Yeah.. Lol is just too damn addictive, lol. Hard to imagine other games challenging it at the moment A lot of LoL's playerbase is built off it being free to play. I'd be willing to bet that many LoL fans switch over to the next big free game when it comes out. | ||
maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: His decision man and it's possible that Brave also was part of this and influence grape to come over to LoL because sc2 isn't the same as broodwar .Grape and brave probably thinks that sc2 is not as fun as bw ? It's possible ... I think a lot of the BW pros think this, but are scared to say it because they make their living playing BW, and BW is gone now | ||
brolaf
291 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:08 Morfildur wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 23:58 Darksoldierr wrote: On June 15 2012 23:56 NonFactor wrote: On June 15 2012 23:36 archonOOid wrote: Why aren't Koreans picking up dota2 as money can be made there too? Is it because of the tough competition? Why aren't Koreans picking up hockey? As money can be made there too? The reason is simple, LoL has gained a dominant position in Korea currently and in the DOMESTIC market, there will be more money to be made then through LoL. It's simply the more popular game. If the current trend continues LoL will be the biggest e-sport in korea. It has beat out Dota 2. And yes, I'm aware Dota 2 is still ''in beta'', but they've been trying to promote e-sports for a long time now, so the chances of anything changing when Dota finally ''releases'' are slim. If this goes on, LoL will be THE esport on the whole planet, that games popularity is trough the roof Yup, Riot has quite the efficient marketing department, it's really astounding how quickly that game got popular once they actively started promoting it. Blizzard (and in case of Dota 2 Valve) really need to step up their game to have a chance at keeping up. Its not really that, its making the game accessible that counts. You gotta remember that Korea is still a somewhat price and requirement sensitive market, with lower budgets and hardware than most western countries do. So LoL with its free play and low requirements has everything it needs for explosive popularity. Dota on the other hand, will have significantly higher requirements as far as i know. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:17 SupLilSon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 00:15 brolaf wrote: On June 15 2012 21:52 StarStruck wrote: On June 15 2012 21:39 supernovamaniac wrote: On June 15 2012 21:35 bearbuddy wrote: Maybe SC2 is simply too saturated? There's already an established SC2 scene, and basically all the remaining BW players are switching to SC2. On the other hand, LoL is pretty fresh and is growing at a rapid rate. You can't say SC2 is "saturated" in Korean scene if it didn't have a huge breakout yet, compared to LoL which had higher numbers in attendance in its first season (Champions). The thing is you can keep expecting/anticipating this all you want. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. You cannot go back in history and rewrite time man. Yeah.. Lol is just too damn addictive, lol. Hard to imagine other games challenging it at the moment A lot of LoL's playerbase is built off it being free to play. I'd be willing to bet that many LoL fans switch over to the next big free game when it comes out. Nah, 65% of my gamer friends plays LoL and about 70% of them said that "Now I know how you feel about BW." and would actually want to play the game in their 50s and beyond because this is the game that they identify themselves with. Now I am kind of on a tilt to whether or not to join them in this conquest because I too want to play BW in my elderly time! | ||
0neder
United States3733 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:12 D4V3Z02 wrote: It's EZ and they want fame/money in korea. They also might enjoy it more than SC2. And if Blizz really cared about esports, it would have been free in PC bangs, at least. | ||
Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:20 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 00:17 SupLilSon wrote: On June 16 2012 00:15 brolaf wrote: On June 15 2012 21:52 StarStruck wrote: On June 15 2012 21:39 supernovamaniac wrote: On June 15 2012 21:35 bearbuddy wrote: Maybe SC2 is simply too saturated? There's already an established SC2 scene, and basically all the remaining BW players are switching to SC2. On the other hand, LoL is pretty fresh and is growing at a rapid rate. You can't say SC2 is "saturated" in Korean scene if it didn't have a huge breakout yet, compared to LoL which had higher numbers in attendance in its first season (Champions). The thing is you can keep expecting/anticipating this all you want. Doesn't mean it's going to happen. You cannot go back in history and rewrite time man. Yeah.. Lol is just too damn addictive, lol. Hard to imagine other games challenging it at the moment A lot of LoL's playerbase is built off it being free to play. I'd be willing to bet that many LoL fans switch over to the next big free game when it comes out. Nah, 65% of my gamer friends plays LoL and about 70% of them said that "Now I know how you feel about BW." and would actually want to play the game in their 50s and beyond because this is the game that they identify themselves with. Now I am kind of on a tilt to whether or not to join them in this conquest because I too want to play BW in my elderly time! Yeah. The guys I learned to know online since ~2005-2006 that are still gaming are all playing LoL now. All of them are not playing seriously but they all play the game at least. And this are people that comes from a competitive scene in other games like CS 1.6, CoD 2 and 4, HoN, DotA, BW and SC2. My only real-life friends that was into games when we were in school played WoW during that time and they are all playing LoL now aswell. Even people that didn't game before are playing LoL now. It's fucking crazy how many people there are playing this game. With that said, I think the attention and playerbase that LoL has gotten is just to damn big to lose players to "the next big thing". In fact, LoL is the next big thing for years to come because the competitive scene hasn't even started to what it will become. It also makes me kind of sad that it wasn't Starcraft or another RTS that got into this position. SC2 had the biggest chans at release to early 2011 but Blizzard blew it hardcore because of greed and incompetence. Now it's to late. | ||
maLaK1
Germany124 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:37 Gosi wrote: With that said, I think the attention and playerbase that LoL has gotten is just to damn big to lose players to "the next big thing". In fact, LoL is the next big thing for years to come because the competitive scene hasn't even started to what it will become. It also makes me kind of sad that it wasn't Starcraft or another RTS that got into this position. SC2 had the biggest chans at release to early 2011 but Blizzard blew it hardcore because of greed and incompetence. Now it's to late. I agree with this, the only question that remains for me is if Dota 2 can dethrone LoL, the pros should side with Dota 2, but can Dota 2 grab the main playerbase from LoL? | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:27 0neder wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 17:12 D4V3Z02 wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It's EZ and they want fame/money in korea. They also might enjoy it more than SC2. And if Blizz really cared about esports, it would have been free in PC bangs, at least. If they really cared about Esports, they would have added LAN already and made B.net more sociable. Or if they truly cared about Esport, they wouldn't have sued Broadcasting station for making their game so popular. Or if they truly care about Esport, they would have...etc., etc., etc, | ||
Taku
Canada2036 Posts
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marcelluspye
United States155 Posts
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sharky246
1197 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:17 brolaf wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 00:08 Morfildur wrote: On June 15 2012 23:58 Darksoldierr wrote: On June 15 2012 23:56 NonFactor wrote: On June 15 2012 23:36 archonOOid wrote: Why aren't Koreans picking up dota2 as money can be made there too? Is it because of the tough competition? Why aren't Koreans picking up hockey? As money can be made there too? The reason is simple, LoL has gained a dominant position in Korea currently and in the DOMESTIC market, there will be more money to be made then through LoL. It's simply the more popular game. If the current trend continues LoL will be the biggest e-sport in korea. It has beat out Dota 2. And yes, I'm aware Dota 2 is still ''in beta'', but they've been trying to promote e-sports for a long time now, so the chances of anything changing when Dota finally ''releases'' are slim. If this goes on, LoL will be THE esport on the whole planet, that games popularity is trough the roof Yup, Riot has quite the efficient marketing department, it's really astounding how quickly that game got popular once they actively started promoting it. Blizzard (and in case of Dota 2 Valve) really need to step up their game to have a chance at keeping up. Its not really that, its making the game accessible that counts. You gotta remember that Korea is still a somewhat price and requirement sensitive market, with lower budgets and hardware than most western countries do. So LoL with its free play and low requirements has everything it needs for explosive popularity. Dota on the other hand, will have significantly higher requirements as far as i know. you gotta be kidding me. Dota is and always has been free and has much lower computer spec requirement (although lol spec requirement is pretty much the same as sc2). Guess what happened during the time lol didn't exist. Koreans played a dota clone called Chaos, dota never saw popularity in korea. It's simply because koreans find lol fun, that it's popular in korea. The general population in korea doesn't give a flying fuck about marketing or doing things for esports, they are not that stupid. So please quit it with the "oh its free, that's why its popular" shenanigans. | ||
ellerina
Philippines452 Posts
![]() ![]() gl with LoL, Grape, Brave, and the others! If it is as big as the people in this thread have been saying it is, I can certainly see why they'd want to try their hand at it. I really wish the BW pro-scene would have been kept alive somehow, even if reduced teams or playing time or whatever. Alas.... | ||
Kittan
Poland3999 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:40 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 00:27 0neder wrote: On June 15 2012 17:12 D4V3Z02 wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It's EZ and they want fame/money in korea. They also might enjoy it more than SC2. And if Blizz really cared about esports, it would have been free in PC bangs, at least. If they really cared about Esports, they would have added LAN already and made B.net more sociable. Or if they truly cared about Esport, they wouldn't have sued Broadcasting station for making their game so popular. Or if they truly care about Esport, they would have...etc., etc., etc, Indeed, it really looks like Blizz and Co. have shot themselves in both feet, right hand and left testicle when it came to releasing and promoting SCToo in the most important market (Korea). So many mind bogglingly-bad decisions later it's not that big of a surprise that the popularity of the sequel can't get any ground. Not to mention driving away the potential fans among BW followers. It's easy to say 'you reap what you sow' and move on, but avoiding those mistakes would have been easy as well. Well it's interesting to see how many ex-pros will move on (after September) to LoL and other games. Other than FPS genre, nothing is able to challenge the popularity of LoL in Korea. Still I kind of wish they moved to Dota2 instead, which I like watching more than LoL. The lack of comeback opportunities in the latter spoils the fun a bit ![]() | ||
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Seeker
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Where dat snitch at?37022 Posts
On a side note: holy crap.... it's going to be frustrating to see my beloved BW players switch over to LoL instead of SC2..... | ||
dellesh1ruH
Denmark509 Posts
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huehuehuehue
Estonia455 Posts
On June 16 2012 01:14 SeeKeR wrote: T-T bye Grape.... GL with LoL! On a side note: holy crap.... it's going to be frustrating to see my beloved BW players switch over to LoL instead of SC2..... You think that more will switch? Personally I don't think so, I think those that don't like SC2 are just gonna retire. And BW skills imo don't translate that well to LoL. | ||
zazone
Romania460 Posts
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cozzE
Australia357 Posts
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ToFu.
331 Posts
On June 16 2012 01:29 cozzE wrote: of course they quit BW for LoL.. haha they must be lapping the casualness how is lol in any way more casual than sc2? i personally dislike sc2, but i never bash a game i feel is made for more casual gamers on that basis. there will always be a higher tier of play in any competitive game even if the main player base is casual. | ||
Tatari
United States1179 Posts
Heard it here first. | ||
palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
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Seiferz
United States640 Posts
On June 16 2012 01:27 zazone wrote: Now I'm positive SC2 will never be big in Korea. A free game more popular than a game you have to pay for? Shocking. Though I do agree to an extent. Games that require a hefty payment are not popular. Either way I think it's a little ridiculous to have such a "large" competitive scene when Dota 2 exists and LoL gets new heroes all the time. | ||
brolaf
291 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:57 sharky246 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 00:17 brolaf wrote: On June 16 2012 00:08 Morfildur wrote: On June 15 2012 23:58 Darksoldierr wrote: On June 15 2012 23:56 NonFactor wrote: On June 15 2012 23:36 archonOOid wrote: Why aren't Koreans picking up dota2 as money can be made there too? Is it because of the tough competition? Why aren't Koreans picking up hockey? As money can be made there too? The reason is simple, LoL has gained a dominant position in Korea currently and in the DOMESTIC market, there will be more money to be made then through LoL. It's simply the more popular game. If the current trend continues LoL will be the biggest e-sport in korea. It has beat out Dota 2. And yes, I'm aware Dota 2 is still ''in beta'', but they've been trying to promote e-sports for a long time now, so the chances of anything changing when Dota finally ''releases'' are slim. If this goes on, LoL will be THE esport on the whole planet, that games popularity is trough the roof Yup, Riot has quite the efficient marketing department, it's really astounding how quickly that game got popular once they actively started promoting it. Blizzard (and in case of Dota 2 Valve) really need to step up their game to have a chance at keeping up. Its not really that, its making the game accessible that counts. You gotta remember that Korea is still a somewhat price and requirement sensitive market, with lower budgets and hardware than most western countries do. So LoL with its free play and low requirements has everything it needs for explosive popularity. Dota on the other hand, will have significantly higher requirements as far as i know. you gotta be kidding me. Dota is and always has been free and has much lower computer spec requirement (although lol spec requirement is pretty much the same as sc2). Guess what happened during the time lol didn't exist. Koreans played a dota clone called Chaos, dota never saw popularity in korea. It's simply because koreans find lol fun, that it's popular in korea. The general population in korea doesn't give a flying fuck about marketing or doing things for esports, they are not that stupid. So please quit it with the "oh its free, that's why its popular" shenanigans. chaos is also free and low reqs. so it became popular. my theory works i think ![]() | ||
TaShadan
Germany1969 Posts
On June 16 2012 02:09 Seiferz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 01:27 zazone wrote: Now I'm positive SC2 will never be big in Korea. A free game more popular than a game you have to pay for? Shocking. Though I do agree to an extent. Games that require a hefty payment are not popular. Either way I think it's a little ridiculous to have such a "large" competitive scene when Dota 2 exists and LoL gets new heroes all the time. Age of Empires Online is free to but failing. And there are many other examples for free2play games that just fail. Btw is Sc2 still free for WoW players in korea? http://www.joystiq.com/2010/06/30/starcraft-2-free-for-wow-players-in-korea-loses-18-rating/ | ||
brolaf
291 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:17 maLaK1 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: His decision man and it's possible that Brave also was part of this and influence grape to come over to LoL because sc2 isn't the same as broodwar .Grape and brave probably thinks that sc2 is not as fun as bw ? It's possible ... I think a lot of the BW pros think this, but are scared to say it because they make their living playing BW, and BW is gone now Speaking of fun, when the teams hang together and practice, you could speculate that practicing a team game with your teammembers is more fun than 1v1 laddering altogether, like even more fun than sc1. Becauseof how much the pros play the game, the shine of the game itself wears off and the comradeship is more important in keeping interest, and LoL ties it into the game far more than sc1 or sc2 | ||
oHInsane
France727 Posts
On June 16 2012 00:40 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 00:27 0neder wrote: On June 15 2012 17:12 D4V3Z02 wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It's EZ and they want fame/money in korea. They also might enjoy it more than SC2. And if Blizz really cared about esports, it would have been free in PC bangs, at least. If they really cared about Esports, they would have added LAN already and made B.net more sociable. Or if they truly cared about Esport, they wouldn't have sued Broadcasting station for making their game so popular. Or if they truly care about Esport, they would have...etc., etc., etc, As an ex bw fanboy from 2000, I wholehearthly agree with this. Seriously, Blizz messed up harcore on sc2, bnet 2.0 is a total joke compared to its father, maphack all over the place. Another argument is that sc2 is mostly a solo game with a difficult learning curve. LoL is a 6 buttons co-op game that leads to infinite possibility. Sorry by the way to bash sc2 a little. | ||
GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It's more popular than SC2, probably more profitable, less stressful, probably requires less practice, and it's a lot easier. | ||
TenJin`Lucian
Costa Rica158 Posts
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Johnnyboy13
United States26 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 16 2012 01:42 ToFu. wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 01:29 cozzE wrote: of course they quit BW for LoL.. haha they must be lapping the casualness how is lol in any way more casual than sc2? i personally dislike sc2, but i never bash a game i feel is made for more casual gamers on that basis. there will always be a higher tier of play in any competitive game even if the main player base is casual. I think he is referring to the pro scene, not the game. | ||
RodrigoX
United States645 Posts
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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TemujinGK
United States483 Posts
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
No wonder the Mayans predicted the world to end this year... | ||
DMXD
United States4064 Posts
well good luck I guess... | ||
Kittan
Poland3999 Posts
Midas would have been disappointed with any of the popular games now :D | ||
SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
On June 16 2012 02:57 Johnnyboy13 wrote: LoL is a no-skill donkey game. I'm So glad the TL community has decided not to support it fully, seriously they ban people from the game permantantly just for minor trash talk. That game is for 12 year olds nuff said. User was warned for this post Funny that this statement came from a SC2 player. No-skill? Hmm,, you ever play MOBAs? | ||
intotheheart
Canada33091 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:27 baubo wrote: If Stork doesn't do well in SC2, we'll know which team he'll go to in LoL. ![]() No man he'll go into YellOw's team EZPZ. | ||
Taku
Canada2036 Posts
On June 16 2012 03:44 TemujinGK wrote: I really wish that there wasn't this jump to LoL. I think their model is unsustainable and is only being kept afloat by huge cash flows from riot and a few sponsors who can't possibly be seeing enough return to keep this long term. Can't this statement be applied, word-for-word, for SC2? | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 16 2012 04:31 Taku wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 03:44 TemujinGK wrote: I really wish that there wasn't this jump to LoL. I think their model is unsustainable and is only being kept afloat by huge cash flows from riot and a few sponsors who can't possibly be seeing enough return to keep this long term. Can't this statement be applied, word-for-word, for SC2? I dont want to start this war once again, but lets not go into what is profitable and what not. Currently its Sc2 and LoL. | ||
jpak
United States5045 Posts
On June 16 2012 01:14 SeeKeR wrote: T-T bye Grape.... GL with LoL! On a side note: holy crap.... it's going to be frustrating to see my beloved BW players switch over to LoL instead of SC2..... You do not want to look forward to September then. I predict quite a few (especially the mid-tier players) will either retire or move on to LoL after this Proleague season. | ||
bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
LoL stealing KHAN players. Time for Samsung KHAN LoL team. | ||
blubbdavid
Switzerland2412 Posts
On June 16 2012 04:34 Darksoldierr wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 04:31 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 03:44 TemujinGK wrote: I really wish that there wasn't this jump to LoL. I think their model is unsustainable and is only being kept afloat by huge cash flows from riot and a few sponsors who can't possibly be seeing enough return to keep this long term. Can't this statement be applied, word-for-word, for SC2? I dont want to start this war once again, but lets not go into what is profitable and what not. Currently its Sc2 and LoL. Since when is SC2 profitable...in Korea? | ||
SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
On June 16 2012 04:46 blubbdavid wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 04:34 Darksoldierr wrote: On June 16 2012 04:31 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 03:44 TemujinGK wrote: I really wish that there wasn't this jump to LoL. I think their model is unsustainable and is only being kept afloat by huge cash flows from riot and a few sponsors who can't possibly be seeing enough return to keep this long term. Can't this statement be applied, word-for-word, for SC2? I dont want to start this war once again, but lets not go into what is profitable and what not. Currently its Sc2 and LoL. Since when is SC2 profitable...in Korea? LOL, since never. xD | ||
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
Welcome to the game gentlemen! | ||
X10A
Canada9837 Posts
Hopefully they enjoy what they're doing Samsung sponsor them! | ||
beefhamburger
United States3962 Posts
On June 16 2012 04:34 Darksoldierr wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 04:31 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 03:44 TemujinGK wrote: I really wish that there wasn't this jump to LoL. I think their model is unsustainable and is only being kept afloat by huge cash flows from riot and a few sponsors who can't possibly be seeing enough return to keep this long term. Can't this statement be applied, word-for-word, for SC2? I dont want to start this war once again, but lets not go into what is profitable and what not. Currently its Sc2 and LoL. As per the words of Carmac, LoL actually has a reason to support their game and constantly update it for newer players to enjoy unlike SC2 once you buy it the first time. If anything, SC2 is the unsustainable one. Good luck to them, regardless of what game they play. On June 16 2012 00:54 Taku wrote: Godforbid that they actually enjoy LoL more than sc2 and want to be part of the growing scene for it | ||
Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
Do you think LoL could have 8 people come up on stage say one sentence and make the crowd go wild? It's hard to say. The magnitude of crowd hype and volume that arose, when Flash walked on stage is incomparable in all other esports. TSM players could hardly be called esports celebrities, because the fan base is there to watch LoL. Sc2 player base is shrinking drastically every season, but the fan base is growing and growing and growing. | ||
LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
gl in LoL. | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
ok, i've calmed down, but still I bet that you can link this to Stork's 'hobbies' | ||
aupstar
Australia912 Posts
I always thought Grape had a lot of potential.. ![]() So sad. Why is there so many people saying he's "burnt out of bw". These pros have been playing bw since they were less than 12 years old. I think it illogical to assume that they suddenly burnt out when bw is about to die. | ||
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:23 Micket wrote: The thing unsustainable about LoL is that the fans and viewers are the players. Every game has a time limit and every one moves onto new games. WoW arena suffered the same fate. Once people get bored of LoL and move to other genres or other MOBAs, where is the audience going to be? Do you think LoL could have 8 people come up on stage say one sentence and make the crowd go wild? It's hard to say. The magnitude of crowd hype and volume that arose, when Flash walked on stage is incomparable in all other esports. TSM players could hardly be called esports celebrities, because the fan base is there to watch LoL. Sc2 player base is shrinking drastically every season, but the fan base is growing and growing and growing. I wish you had watched MLG I believe it was last week, the fans shouting for TSM sounded as loud as any SC2 event i've heard. | ||
Micket
United Kingdom2163 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:27 arb wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 07:23 Micket wrote: The thing unsustainable about LoL is that the fans and viewers are the players. Every game has a time limit and every one moves onto new games. WoW arena suffered the same fate. Once people get bored of LoL and move to other genres or other MOBAs, where is the audience going to be? Do you think LoL could have 8 people come up on stage say one sentence and make the crowd go wild? It's hard to say. The magnitude of crowd hype and volume that arose, when Flash walked on stage is incomparable in all other esports. TSM players could hardly be called esports celebrities, because the fan base is there to watch LoL. Sc2 player base is shrinking drastically every season, but the fan base is growing and growing and growing. I wish you had watched MLG I believe it was last week, the fans shouting for TSM sounded as loud as any SC2 event i've heard. After they won yes, it is natural to cheer for the champions. But I'm talking about being worshipped by fan boys and fan girls alike for simply being around. Could most LoL fans name every TSM player by their real names? Compare that to everyone knowing Lee Young Ho, Greg Fields, Jang Min Chul. | ||
aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:40 Micket wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 07:27 arb wrote: On June 16 2012 07:23 Micket wrote: The thing unsustainable about LoL is that the fans and viewers are the players. Every game has a time limit and every one moves onto new games. WoW arena suffered the same fate. Once people get bored of LoL and move to other genres or other MOBAs, where is the audience going to be? Do you think LoL could have 8 people come up on stage say one sentence and make the crowd go wild? It's hard to say. The magnitude of crowd hype and volume that arose, when Flash walked on stage is incomparable in all other esports. TSM players could hardly be called esports celebrities, because the fan base is there to watch LoL. Sc2 player base is shrinking drastically every season, but the fan base is growing and growing and growing. I wish you had watched MLG I believe it was last week, the fans shouting for TSM sounded as loud as any SC2 event i've heard. After they won yes, it is natural to cheer for the champions. But I'm talking about being worshipped by fan boys and fan girls alike for simply being around. Could most LoL fans name every TSM player by their real names? Compare that to everyone knowing Lee Young Ho, Greg Fields, Jang Min Chul. This is a starcraft forum after all. Stating such things is a bit redundant. Lee Young Ho and Greg Fields were famous in these forums before sc2. Who's Jang Min Chul? | ||
hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:23 Micket wrote: The thing unsustainable about LoL is that the fans and viewers are the players. Every game has a time limit and every one moves onto new games. WoW arena suffered the same fate. Once people get bored of LoL and move to other genres or other MOBAs, where is the audience going to be? Do you think LoL could have 8 people come up on stage say one sentence and make the crowd go wild? It's hard to say. The magnitude of crowd hype and volume that arose, when Flash walked on stage is incomparable in all other esports. TSM players could hardly be called esports celebrities, because the fan base is there to watch LoL. Sc2 player base is shrinking drastically every season, but the fan base is growing and growing and growing. Have you seen sports like basketball? People become fans of a team. Even in Brood War most people supported a team instead of just individual players. They may be hyped up by a player like Kobe or Jaedong but support is mostly for a team. Also, there is no reason there can't be hype for individual players in other esports. In counter strike, there are players like Get_Right and Markeloff who are well known even if it is a team game. | ||
Antyee
Hungary1011 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:40 Micket wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 07:27 arb wrote: On June 16 2012 07:23 Micket wrote: The thing unsustainable about LoL is that the fans and viewers are the players. Every game has a time limit and every one moves onto new games. WoW arena suffered the same fate. Once people get bored of LoL and move to other genres or other MOBAs, where is the audience going to be? Do you think LoL could have 8 people come up on stage say one sentence and make the crowd go wild? It's hard to say. The magnitude of crowd hype and volume that arose, when Flash walked on stage is incomparable in all other esports. TSM players could hardly be called esports celebrities, because the fan base is there to watch LoL. Sc2 player base is shrinking drastically every season, but the fan base is growing and growing and growing. I wish you had watched MLG I believe it was last week, the fans shouting for TSM sounded as loud as any SC2 event i've heard. After they won yes, it is natural to cheer for the champions. But I'm talking about being worshipped by fan boys and fan girls alike for simply being around. Could most LoL fans name every TSM player by their real names? Compare that to everyone knowing Lee Young Ho, Greg Fields, Jang Min Chul. I could name more LoL players than Starcraft players. And koreans use their names instead of their ID, so it's a pretty cheap comparison... | ||
kratos-23
303 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
They probably chose LoL because there are Korean leagues and they probably wanted to experience something new. Don't know why people are reading so much into it | ||
aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On June 15 2012 23:01 Count9 wrote: I always thought this would be the natural transition for players that are below A-class (cept the ones that jumped ship super early) since all the S/A-class BW players will most likely transition to SC2 and along with the SC2 players makes a very saturated market of high skilled or experienced players whereas with a much easier game like LoL there's a lot of room for their BW mechanics to kick in and stuff. I don't think that's a problem. It's more of an even playing field now with the transition to sc2. They would be more competitive if they just stayed on their teams and practised sc2. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:44 kratos-23 wrote: you bw crybabies are fuckin' pathetic. happy that your bw heroes playing now a fucking joke of a game called LoL just to bash sc2 more. grow up morons. you bw pros will probably not be better than a random pro from the US because the skill celling in this game is so fucking low haha, retards. I think someone is agitated. | ||
aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:44 kratos-23 wrote: you bw crybabies are fuckin' pathetic. happy that your bw heroes playing now a fucking joke of a game called LoL just to bash sc2 more. grow up morons. you bw pros will probably not be better than a random pro from the US because the skill celling in this game is so fucking low haha, retards. lol..calm down dude..everyone is sad..it's not looking good for either of our games but skill ceiling talk is funny..lol | ||
Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
GL to these guys, and I sure hope to see future Khan members on the same team. | ||
Tal
United Kingdom1015 Posts
![]() I'm very curious to see what these ex-BW pros will bring to LOL. As many have pointed out, mechanics aren't as big a deal - but their training habits and mental strength would be incredibly valuable. A lot of top teams seem to 'tilt' when things start going badly - maybe the BW players can avoid this. | ||
hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 16 2012 08:05 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: I actually like how a lot of the BW pros are moving to LoL. SC2 is a step backwards in terms of money involved and popularity of the game compared to BW. While LoL won't necessarily gain the same level of professionalism that BW had, I can easily understand how it's a more attractive option than SC2. GL to these guys, and I sure hope to see future Khan members on the same team. BW wasn't really professional when it first started either was it? I didn't get into BW till recently but watching all the old videos it didn't seem the same as it is now. | ||
Irave
United States9965 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8641 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 15 2012 18:06 M2 wrote: arent progamers like grape loosing some of their competitive adavntage in games like LoL, Dota? I mean their hand speed, reaction time maybe even practicing habits will not pay off in a game where the team play is way more valuable, people that are pretty good, not exceptional, but have good team strategy will most likely have what it takes to take a game. In individual games like sc1, sc2 their individual skills will shine so much more Well, they're already losing some of that mechanical edge in SC2, and the SC2 scene is full of people who are playing it as fast as it can be played. LoL has less competition from a mechanics standpoint, I think. LoL is also a lot bigger in Korea than SC2 is, and it's a more rapidly growing scene since it's fairly new. Plus, maybe they flat-out don't like SC2, for any number of reasons. On June 16 2012 08:11 Tal wrote: The BW forum is so mature ![]() BW forumites like LoL a lot more than the SC2 section does. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On June 16 2012 08:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: dota2 where art thee in the korean scene? T_T Maybe when it gets out of Beta and is released for real. I wonder if its free-to-play, hat-marketplace system will find success in the Asian markets, especially in Korea. | ||
RezChi
Canada2368 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11286 Posts
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RainSunShowers
Norway152 Posts
On June 16 2012 08:51 eviltomahawk wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 08:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: dota2 where art thee in the korean scene? T_T Maybe when it gets out of Beta and is released for real. I wonder if its free-to-play, hat-marketplace system will find success in the Asian markets, especially in Korea. Dota 2 will not be a pay-to-win game. All the items in the store are cosmetic, and don’t affect gameplay. All of the heroes will be available free of charge. We believe restricting player access to heroes could be destructive to game design, so it’s something we plan to avoid. http://blog.dota2.com/2012/06/introducing-the-dota-store/ It will be more f2p than lol because you will have all the champions from the start, but I think Dota2 require a better PC than what LoL does, you should be able to run Dota2 on very low graphics so I don't think it will be a problem. | ||
eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On June 16 2012 09:26 RainSunShowers wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 08:51 eviltomahawk wrote: On June 16 2012 08:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: dota2 where art thee in the korean scene? T_T Maybe when it gets out of Beta and is released for real. I wonder if its free-to-play, hat-marketplace system will find success in the Asian markets, especially in Korea. Show nested quote + Dota 2 will not be a pay-to-win game. All the items in the store are cosmetic, and don’t affect gameplay. All of the heroes will be available free of charge. We believe restricting player access to heroes could be destructive to game design, so it’s something we plan to avoid. http://blog.dota2.com/2012/06/introducing-the-dota-store/ It will be more f2p than lol because you will have all the champions from the start, but I think Dota2 require a better PC than what LoL does, you should be able to run Dota2 on very low graphics so I don't think it will be a problem. I do know about how they are not selling anything that affects gameplay so it won't be pay-to-win, but I'm just worried that maybe only selling cosmetic items won't be enough to sustain the game in the long-term. I'm sure that LoL gets a lot of money from players who buy champions and other items to boost their in-game performance, so I'm kinda nervous if not enough players end up buying cosmetic upgrades to make DotA2 financially viable. But then again, Valve has a lot of other projects to back themselves up. But this is really digressing from this thread's topic. Anyways, I wonder if DotA2's release will cause a big shakeup in the Korean scene, especially with LoL becoming a juggernaut. | ||
aRyuujin
United States5049 Posts
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Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:23 Valikyr wrote: Could someone tell me whats' the draw in LoL, what's hard about the game? What do I have to practice for hours every day to master? In especially bw but also SC2 I could practice as single little aspect for days on end just to get it. What does LoL has that is hard? When I watch LoL it's like "I could do that with a day of practice, get the fuck out of here casual shit". Well people now days prefer simple games easy to jump in and play it straight away . Gone are the days people actually play game because it's challenging in every aspect of the game . Sc2,Dota and Lol popularity actually proves these theory. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:23 Valikyr wrote: Could someone tell me whats' the draw in LoL, what's hard about the game? What do I have to practice for hours every day to master? In especially bw but also SC2 I could practice as single little aspect for days on end just to get it. What does LoL has that is hard? When I watch LoL it's like "I could do that with a day of practice, get the fuck out of here casual shit". LoL is a teamwork game. With that in mind, you can't just be like "Ima gonna use the next 12 hours practicing this game." You need people with enough competency to join you. Actually 1 vs 1 game is much more simplistic to control the flow because you don't require that much of co-ordinations and is just based on pure efforts. Team based game needs to have synergic interactions and thus just the same time to practice. | ||
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Kiett
United States7639 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:23 Valikyr wrote: Could someone tell me whats' the draw in LoL, what's hard about the game? What do I have to practice for hours every day to master? In especially bw but also SC2 I could practice a single little aspect for days on end just to get a grasp about what it's about. What does LoL has that is hard? When I watch LoL it's like "I could do that with a day of practice, get the fuck out of here casual shit". Because it's not about you. It doesn't matter if you can master it in one day. It's a team game. The team has to know how to work together, how to coordinate, how to fulfill team objectives, how to position yourself around your team and the opponents, who to focus, who to defend, etc. And even if the game itself is "easy", the other players are also playing the same easy game. But guess what, you're not playing vs the game. You're playing against other people. | ||
dookudooku
255 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:23 Valikyr wrote: Could someone tell me whats' the draw in LoL, what's hard about the game? What do I have to practice for hours every day to master? In especially bw but also SC2 I could practice a single little aspect for days on end just to get a grasp about what it's about. What does LoL has that is hard? When I watch LoL it's like "I could do that with a day of practice, get the fuck out of here casual shit". The game is less about practicing one thing over and over again (unless you play AD carry, where mechanics are very important), but more about acquiring knowledge and putting that knowledge into use. For example, opponent gets item A. Do you get item B or item C to counter it? Item B is strong counter for the next 10 minutes, but weaker after that. Item C is strong vs your specific opponent, but leaves you worse vs the rest of the enemy team. Most people prefer games that are mechanically simple, but have enough strategic depth to allow you to win by out-thinking your opponent. | ||
Valikyr
Sweden2653 Posts
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dookudooku
255 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:57 Valikyr wrote: Yea sounds like shit :D, not gonna try. But thanks for the answers. Sad that amazing gamers turns to something that only requires team coordination. Actually until you reach an advanced level, coordination isn't even as important as knowledge. A team can have the best coordination but if they pick the wrong heroes, use the wrong strategies, and buy all the wrong items, they will lose to a team of that's being played by monkeys. | ||
Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
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EleanorRIgby
Canada3923 Posts
and after being competitive in a 1v1 game for so long maybe a team game would be a bice change | ||
DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:57 Valikyr wrote: Yea sounds like shit :D, not gonna try. But thanks for the answers. Sad that amazing gamers turns to something that only requires team coordination. Pretty ignorant answer. People who say that hours of training in this game doesn't translate into skill just need to look at the Korean/SEA/China scene the top teams over there (MiG, TPA, and .WE) are crushing the competition that used to be on the same level as them. The reason for this is that all of those teams are now working on 12 and in the Taipei Assassins case 15 hour schedules. To say that practice does not carry over in this game, shows how oblivious you are to the scene. | ||
Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:23 Valikyr wrote: Could someone tell me whats' the draw in LoL, what's hard about the game? What do I have to practice for hours every day to master? In especially bw but also SC2 I could practice a single little aspect for days on end just to get a grasp about what it's about. What does LoL has that is hard? When I watch LoL it's like "I could do that with a day of practice, get the fuck out of here casual shit". people saying this is the same as when BW players looked at sc2 and said "lol easy I could do that in 5 minutes." It turns out that sc2 does take some skill to play (more than BW in my opinion? No, but it for sure takes a lot of skill to play like MC). I can guarantee that you in no way would be able to play at the same level as an LoL pro with only a day's practice. Just because you don't like the game doesn't mean it isn't difficult. Please note I'm not debating which game is harder, sc or LoL, I'm just saying that when casual players of either game say "other game is so easy I could play it at top level with a little practice" they're wrong. | ||
Kibibit
United States1551 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
Also, LoL in Korea is growing huge. I'm pretty sure just a few months ago it was the #1 played game in PC Bangs which is pretty significant. I think lots of people who are SC2 fans are just disappointed (and rightfully so) that LoL is most likely going to replace Brood War as the next big eSport. Being sad or disappointed that it seems to be the game replacing BW instead of SC2 is fine. But randomly bashing it and saying it's "casual shit" is just stupid. Every top team says that tournaments are pretty much decided by who practices the most. | ||
1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On June 16 2012 11:59 overt wrote: Competitive LoL is bigger than any eSport save Brood War has ever been. No one knows how long it's gonna last but I think anyone who's reasonable would say the competitive scene has at least another five years or more. Also, LoL in Korea is growing huge. I'm pretty sure just a few months ago it was the #1 played game in PC Bangs which is pretty significant. I think lots of people who are SC2 fans are just disappointed (and rightfully so) that LoL is most likely going to replace Brood War as the next big eSport. Being sad or disappointed that it seems to be the game replacing BW instead of SC2 is fine. But randomly bashing it and saying it's "casual shit" is just stupid. Every top team says that tournaments are pretty much decided by who practices the most. How can SC2 fans be "rightly so" in their disapointment? Games don't follow a hereditary sucession, and you aren't forced to like or dislike any game. As for the question at hand. Ehh, good luck. I just hope whatever choices these guys all end up making are sustainable for a long time. Be it LoL, SC2, or some other profession | ||
Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
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nicoc77
Argentina57 Posts
Yeah, sorry for my poor english, I hope you guys understand. | ||
ETisME
12385 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:26 Sawamura wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 10:23 Valikyr wrote: Could someone tell me whats' the draw in LoL, what's hard about the game? What do I have to practice for hours every day to master? In especially bw but also SC2 I could practice as single little aspect for days on end just to get it. What does LoL has that is hard? When I watch LoL it's like "I could do that with a day of practice, get the fuck out of here casual shit". Well people now days prefer simple games easy to jump in and play it straight away . Gone are the days people actually play game because it's challenging in every aspect of the game . Sc2,Dota and Lol popularity actually proves these theory. not really. Not as challenging in mechanic side (mind you, the mechanic challenges are formed by a flawed/old design of the game) doesn't mean the game is not as challenging. It requires a different kind of skill set in comparison. Dota is not an easy game to just jump in, the learning curve is actually really high, especially how punishing the game is. hero pick, items choice, all 90+ heroes, jungling, ganking, laning, last hitting and positioning, warding etc. Notice how the kespa invitational pros' interview, they always state SC2 is very different to BW, not easier and the game feels a lot quicker. | ||
We Are Here
Australia1810 Posts
On June 16 2012 10:57 Valikyr wrote: I use to be like you until i started playing it. Team coordination is extremely hard, but that is not the only thing, every hero is played differently, sometimes you gotta know when to sacriface and all that a lot of decision making. Also synergy of items as well how well it fits on your hero and team. Strategy for picking heroes etc. It's actually quite deep and does require practice thats why the chinese dominated for so long.Yea sounds like shit :D, not gonna try. But thanks for the answers. Sad that amazing gamers turns to something that only requires team coordination. | ||
Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On June 16 2012 12:54 ETisME wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 10:26 Sawamura wrote: On June 16 2012 10:23 Valikyr wrote: Could someone tell me whats' the draw in LoL, what's hard about the game? What do I have to practice for hours every day to master? In especially bw but also SC2 I could practice as single little aspect for days on end just to get it. What does LoL has that is hard? When I watch LoL it's like "I could do that with a day of practice, get the fuck out of here casual shit". Well people now days prefer simple games easy to jump in and play it straight away . Gone are the days people actually play game because it's challenging in every aspect of the game . Sc2,Dota and Lol popularity actually proves these theory. not really. Not as challenging in mechanic side (mind you, the mechanic challenges are formed by a flawed/old design of the game) doesn't mean the game is not as challenging. It requires a different kind of skill set in comparison. Dota is not an easy game to just jump in, the learning curve is actually really high, especially how punishing the game is. hero pick, items choice, all 90+ heroes, jungling, ganking, laning, last hitting and positioning, warding etc. Notice how the kespa invitational pros' interview, they always state SC2 is very different to BW, not easier and the game feels a lot quicker. well even if you can't jump in and start owning you can play with your friends for each gaming session . Much more fun if your friends can enjoy with you and most of them if i ask them "play starcraft ???? gogogo ??? they will give me "No!" look and I have to go play dota or lol ... | ||
Neo7
United States922 Posts
The best players on the KeSPA teams became progamers out of sheer passion for playing Brood War. They love playing the game. They don't want to trade playing 10+ hours everyday because its what they wanted to do. Once that fun is taken out, they will lose focus extremely fast. KeSPA essentially sucked all the fun out by dumping an entirely new game and basically said "here you are required to know how to play this now" and most of them did so unwillingly. | ||
DURRHURRDERP
Canada929 Posts
(and yes, if you're wondering, I have played bw/sc2/LoL) Reading through this thread (and seeing many in the past), the two major points of contention seem to be 1) Popularity, and 2) Skill. LoL is currently the 2nd most popular game in Korean PC Bangs with almost 16% (http://www.gametrics.com/); Broodwar is 6th with 3.41%, and SC2 isn't even in the top 10. In terms of worldwide popularity, LoL currently has separate servers for: NA, EUW (EU West), EUNE (EU Nordic/East), TW (Taiwan), China (multiple servers), Korea, and SEA (Garena?). Between NA/EUW/EUNE alone, there are about 32 million registered accounts. (http://www.pcworld.com/article/257292/european_league_of_legends_game_players_have_their_account_data_compromised.html) Clearly, LoL is an extremely popular game, but why? Basically a combination of factors that includes: 1) The F2P/Microtransaction model Players can start free (and stay free to play) and if they enjoy the game and continue playing, can spend real money in the game store. LoL's F2P model here differs slightly with DOTA2. In DOTA2, you get every single champion for free and can only spend money buying cosmetic purchases (skins, different looking items, etc) that have no impact on the game. LoL on the other hand has a limited champion pool (10 champions free, rotating on a weekly basis) free. You can buy champions with IP/RP (Influence points - in game points that you get for playing games, and RP - riot points, bought with real money). Having a large champion pool can be an asset, but your playing ability matters far more. A bw/sc2 analogy would be the player who can execute many strategies well and can get to whatever rank versus the player who executes a single strategy extremely well and reaches the same rank. Additionally, LoL has "Runes" which give you a small advantage in game - while runes are only purchasable with IP, "Rune pages" (basically a specific page of combined runes - you start off with 2) can be bought with RP. At the highest levels of play, you are somewhat constrained if you only have these default 2 rune pages available, as playing different champions optimally requires different rune setups. 2) The noob-friendly aspect of LoL LoL has been designed from Day 1 to be appealing to as many people as possible. The graphics, computer requirements, and learning curve all reflect this. Anyone can jump into LoL. This is not a bad thing. Having a casual-friendly game attracts and (more importantly) holds onto players. If someone were to start playing Broodwar now with the intention to be even D+ on iccup, think about how hard even this modest accomplishment would be. They would have to: 1. Play through the single player campaign to familiarize themselves with the game UI and units. 2. Play 1v1 against a computer until they can beat it. 3. Read, watch and learn about every basic strategy and matchup involving their chosen race. 4. Practice executing these strategies versus real opponents on ICCUP (most likely losing 95%+ of the time). Repeat steps 3+4. How quickly do you think this hypothetical person would get fed up with the game and quit? Learning SC2 is a similar struggle. Having an excellent bw pedigree does not equate to instant success at SC2 - even if Flash plays SC2 full time, it may take him a few months before he reaches the absolute top of the game. Extrapolate that line of thought for the average person again: for someone who has never played Broodwar or SC2, imagine how hard it would be for them to get to Platinum in SC2 - they would end up being in Bronze for an entire season or two before getting the hang of the game (if they haven't quit). LoL on the other hand, provides a gentle learning curve, matching you with players that are roughly the same skill level with you, and, on the other hand, provides another measure of progression (summoner levels/exp - you start off as level 1, and after playing many games, end at level 30). Each level brings an extra rune slot and mastery point that you can utilize in game. This would be the "MMO" aspect of the game. It allows you to play your first few hundred games versus other beginners (unlike the BW model of anyone joining your game, and unlike the SC2 model of having only 5? placement games). 3) Marketing Riot has done an excellent job marketing their game to different markets. They have invested loads of money into the competitive scene in the form of the end of season tournaments as well as partnering with other tournament organizations. There is nothing inherently shady or wrong with getting as much exposure for your game as possible. Every single competitive multiplayer game should be doing the same thing and trying to create a thriving and active competitive scene. As a sidenote, there is one issue that sc2 players often bring up in threads involving stream viewer numbers (for SC2 vs LoL) that I think is just hilarious. For upcoming and current major tournaments, Riot aggressively advertises it in the game client (something that Blizzard doesn't do). Some disgruntled SC2 players often claim that Riot puts the tournament stream directly into everyone's LoL game client, (which leads to major tournaments often getting 200k viewers). This is incorrect - Riot places a link to the tournament stream in it's client, as well as usually putting a link in the login screen to the tournament stream. If Riot actually had the stream running in everyone's game client, viewer numbers would probably be in the millions, lol. The actual percentage of players that are interested in the esports scene of LoL are relatively small compared to the total amount of players. This is something that Riot needs to address in the future. As another sidenote, Valve also has news and links in its main menu for DOTA2. If anything, Blizzard needs to adopt a similar approach to get its own casual players more interested in the competitive scene. In general: LoL is popular because it's F2P model attracts players, while it's casual-friendly balancing, team aspect and matchmaking holds onto players. Now the second issue: skill. LoL requires a different skill set than Broodwar/SC2. BW/SC2 are RTS games while DOTA2/LoL are MOBAs. It is impossible to compare skill between the games. MOBAs in general have very limited mechanics. You control only one (main) unit, a couple units at most (due to some champion abilities). In LoL your actions derive from your champion's auto attacks, 4 abilities, any item actives, and your 2 summoner spells. The same applies to DOTA. There are no "buildings" to control and macro from. However, just because MOBAs are relatively simple mechanically for players with backgrounds in broodwar/sc2/RTS games, doesn't mean the genre is skill-less or has a low skill cap. The emphasis in LoL/DOTA2 is on knowledge over mechanics. BW had a high ceiling for both: you have to be mechanically skilled and have a deep understanding of the game if you want to be the best Broodwar player. SC2 also takes some mechanical skill (obviously not comparable to broodwar) as well as a decent knowledge of the game. In LoL, mechanics are often simplified to mean last hitting, so as someone said earlier in the thread, a player like Doublelift who has good mechanics, can get a lot of last hits. However, last hitting is only the most "visible" of mechanics in LoL. It is the most easily compared mechanic: if I can kill 100 creeps in 10 minutes, and you only kill 50 creeps, I'm "better" than you mechanically. Mechanics in LoL actually comes down to your champion played - how you use your auto attacks (last hitting, controlling creep waves, or denying in DOTA2), how you use your abilities (what order you use them in, the timing in which you use them, how you use them aggressively or defensively, how you react to other champion abilities, etc etc.) In short, mechanics in LoL derive mostly from your knowledge of the game and knowledge of the champion played than from multitasking speed. Since mechanically the game is not too demanding, there is not a huge benefit (and really no requirement for) having 300+ apm. Players do tend to spam a lot anyways, but playing with 100-150 apm (mostly mouseclicks) is definitely sufficient. Skill cap is something that is difficult to judge for LoL. When you watch Flash playing Broodwar, you get the feeling that you could never replicate his level of play even if you played 10 years for 20 hours a day. Watching a MOBA like LoL or DOTA2, even though you see individual players dominating, it is hard to get the same feeling. This is because most of the "skill" is hidden (knowledge skill - simply knowing more about the game, about your champion, etc) and isn't as obvious as straight mechanical skill. The perception that the LoL skill cap is lower than BW/SC2 at the highest levels might be true in a sense, but the game itself is fundamentally different. Because of Riot's policy on balance and champion releases, adjustments to the game are constantly being made. Every couple of weeks Riot releases a new champion or balance patch, often changing the metagame and dominant strategies completely. Players at the top levels must constantly keep abreast of new developments and test out newly released champions (and try to figure them out). Play at the highest levels depends so much on constant changes and new developments, which is why the LoL skillcap hasn't been reached yet - it essentially never will be reached as long as Riot keeps introducing new champions and continues their policy on balance. (in short: LoL skill cap different - "lower" but constantly evolving - top players must keep up or become irrelevant) This brings me to my next point regarding practice. Pro teams have to practice a lot. Not only do they need to practice their team communication and coordination (extremely important), but because of the nature of the game, they must constantly keep developing new strategies involving new champions or rebalanced champions. If you think just because LoL is cartoony and "easy" that you (or anyone else - including any Korean BW pro) could pick the game up tomorrow and rise to the top of the game, you're absolutely deluding yourself. Because of the competitive nature of the game and team dynamics, LoL is no more relaxed than any other competitive game. For solo queue (an essentially random matchmaking system, puts you with 4 other players vs 5 other randoms), passing off losses on the mistakes of teammates may be relatively stress free, but it won't lead to improvement. For competitive play, practice times and the reliance on teammates if anything leads to more stress, not less. If you're playing the game professionally and you're under-performing or slumping, not only are you losing for yourself, but you're losing for your remaining 4 teammates. I definitely think the main reason why BW pros like Grape see LoL as such an attractive alternative to SC2 is because of the popularity of the game (and subsequent opportunities in the competitive scene), as well as easier "progression" from starting the game to pro level. If they moved to SC2, they would have to start from the bottom, just like everyone else. Unlike Flash, these mid-tier BW pros aren't going to have major sponsorships and opportunities waiting on hand if they switch over to SC2. As opposed to LoL where opportunities are everywhere, the game is only getting more popular, and the game is still relatively undeveloped in terms of professionalism among pro teams. DOTA2 is a different story like some posters have mentioned, as many Chinese and EU teams have already become highly developed professionally due to their many years of playing DOTA1. Wow this post ended up far longer than I thought. I hope it sheds some light into the issue for some people. I'll probably check this thread more so I can probably answer some more questions if they come up. | ||
IcedBacon
Canada906 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Simple, the game isn't released yet. | ||
DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On June 16 2012 14:10 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Simple, the game isn't released yet. This may be a contributing factor, but it is not the main one, if anything it's the fact that riot markets their game far better than any other developer i have EVER seen. They have deals with PC bangs to unlock all of the heroes for free etc. That kind of ground level marketing is ridiculous. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 16 2012 14:15 DonKey_ wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 14:10 Xiphos wrote: On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Simple, the game isn't released yet. This may be a contributing factor, but it is not the main one, if anything it's the fact that riot markets their game far better than any other developer i have EVER seen. They have deals with PC bangs to unlock all of the heroes for free etc. That kind of ground level marketing is ridiculous. Lol you seriously telling me that a game in Closed Beta that require keys to play the game can garner more fans than another one already released? | ||
Cr4zyH0r5e
Peru1308 Posts
Is that really the case? Most BW players I know prefer LoL over SC2, for reasons that to me and many others seem obvious. I appreciate the enlightening post on LoL's popularity and the game itself. Every time I see one of those "why LoL over SC2 T_T" posts I can't help but facepalm. On Topic: I never really cared much for any Khan player not named Stork but I'm really interested in seeing how far their discipline and map awareness / ability to make fast decisions can carry them in LoL. I'll be following Grape's team for sure. GL to those guys! | ||
Cr4zyH0r5e
Peru1308 Posts
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DURRHURRDERP
Canada929 Posts
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DonKey_
Liechtenstein1356 Posts
On June 16 2012 14:38 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 14:15 DonKey_ wrote: On June 16 2012 14:10 Xiphos wrote: On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Simple, the game isn't released yet. This may be a contributing factor, but it is not the main one, if anything it's the fact that riot markets their game far better than any other developer i have EVER seen. They have deals with PC bangs to unlock all of the heroes for free etc. That kind of ground level marketing is ridiculous. Lol you seriously telling me that a game in Closed Beta that require keys to play the game can garner more fans than another one already released? You may or may not know this but league was not released in korea or china for the longest time but it did not stop their players from playing on the U.S. server. I have a Dota 2 beta key(jenisis54 steam account) and I didn't even try to get one. A friend of mine just gifted me one to kill time, getting those beta passes is nothing like what it used to be; there are plenty out there for people who want them. In fact I took this right off the general discussion section for Dota 2 on TL "Want a beta key? (1) PlayDota.com gives away a ton of keys daily (2) Beta Sign-Up (3) steam://takesurvey/1/" Getting beta keys is much easier than it used to be. | ||
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On June 16 2012 13:12 Neo7 wrote: Another thing you guys should be considering is that LoL is outside of KeSPA's grasp currently. Not too long ago there was quite a comment from Stork stating that KeSPA has grown quite insensitive to progamers themselves. Samsung KHAN is well known for having the best atmosphere from a team standpoint (that is, excluding KeSPA administration). The best players on the KeSPA teams became progamers out of sheer passion for playing Brood War. They love playing the game. They don't want to trade playing 10+ hours everyday because its what they wanted to do. Once that fun is taken out, they will lose focus extremely fast. KeSPA essentially sucked all the fun out by dumping an entirely new game and basically said "here you are required to know how to play this now" and most of them did so unwillingly. I'm pretty sure LoL became a KeSPA sanctioned game a few weeks before SC2 (I could be wrong though). Also, CJ Entus took in a LoL team last month. I don't know too much about KeSPA's activity in LoL but they are certainly involved. | ||
TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
Long live LoL, the Future King of E-Sports!!!! | ||
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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flashimba
225 Posts
On June 16 2012 04:37 jpak wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 01:14 SeeKeR wrote: T-T bye Grape.... GL with LoL! On a side note: holy crap.... it's going to be frustrating to see my beloved BW players switch over to LoL instead of SC2..... You do not want to look forward to September then. I predict quite a few (especially the mid-tier players) will either retire or move on to LoL after this Proleague season. As a BW fan, this news doesn't bother me at all. BW will have ended by then and there's nothing left for me. I hope the BW pros find a nice, new home be it LoL or SC2. I don't watch either, but personally, I would prefer it to be LoL. | ||
OopsOopsBaby
Singapore3425 Posts
On June 16 2012 14:38 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 14:15 DonKey_ wrote: On June 16 2012 14:10 Xiphos wrote: On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Simple, the game isn't released yet. This may be a contributing factor, but it is not the main one, if anything it's the fact that riot markets their game far better than any other developer i have EVER seen. They have deals with PC bangs to unlock all of the heroes for free etc. That kind of ground level marketing is ridiculous. Lol you seriously telling me that a game in Closed Beta that require keys to play the game can garner more fans than another one already released? unlikely for dota 2 to take off in korea since they already have chaos online and now lol. dota 1 is not popular in korea anyway. anyway http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=557305 | ||
xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
lol : 2x bw : 1x sc2 : 0.5x | ||
hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Dota2 requires Steam, There aren't any games on the PC bang rankings that require steam so maybe they don't have steam installed there. | ||
chriZqq
141 Posts
On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Because LoL is easier :D | ||
moopie
12605 Posts
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On June 16 2012 16:49 hydrogg wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ Dota2 requires Steam, There aren't any games on the PC bang rankings that require steam so maybe they don't have steam installed there. also dota2 isnt out for free (yet), which is basically a huge hinder Besides, we got the chineese playing dota, dont need the koreasn too | ||
Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
I just play them all. | ||
ETisME
12385 Posts
On June 16 2012 13:54 IcedBacon wrote: I don't know why Korea isn't getting into DotA 2 instead :/ the characters are more moe and the cosplay are done really well: + Show Spoiler + ![]() ![]() it's popular among both male and female | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
the characters are more moe and the cosplay are done really well I thought it was aegyo in Korean. | ||
ETisME
12385 Posts
On June 16 2012 17:23 maximuspita wrote: I thought it was aegyo in Korean. yea it could be :p but in japan, it's getting bigger because of these cosplays (appears to be so on internet anyway) | ||
RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." | ||
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." It could be true before but that's not the case anymore since Dreamhack Summer (this weekend) has all 3 of Dota 2, HoN, and LoL. Riot/LoL has just been able to capture the attention of the tournament organizers (MLG Lee and Carmac) by promoting their game well and giving support to the tournaments on site so they have fewer things to worry about. | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." source please | ||
DURRHURRDERP
Canada929 Posts
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OniGami
Japan140 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. Yes, but possible only becouse of the genre of the game. You cannot unlock anything in Sc2, maybe new avatar icons, but thats it. And you do progress, if you win 50% of your games, you will gain more points than you lose. And if you progressing by skill, you will be promoted to higher leagues | ||
Djeez
543 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. Hardly a good thing, IMO. The grind for lvl 30 is way too long in my opinion, and the grind for runepages, runes and 16 champions is even more ridiculous. But I guess that's a necessity when your game is free. Never understood the mentality of people saying you need as much experience as possible before doing ranked. There's ELO to sort out your skill level anyway. | ||
Kaal
Djibouti2514 Posts
On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." AHAHAAHHAHAA. Yeah except Dota 2 and HoN have been at a bunch of events that league has been at. Them contracts. Hurtin' that esports. | ||
chriZqq
141 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:58 Kaal wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." AHAHAAHHAHAA. Yeah except Dota 2 and HoN have been at a bunch of events that league has been at. Them contracts. Hurtin' that esports. IIRC was it the case why DotA2 wasnt featured in the german ESL. | ||
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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On June 16 2012 19:13 chriZqq wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 18:58 Kaal wrote: On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." AHAHAAHHAHAA. Yeah except Dota 2 and HoN have been at a bunch of events that league has been at. Them contracts. Hurtin' that esports. IIRC was it the case why DotA2 wasnt featured in the german ESL. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=307596 You mean this? It's been speculated by some that Riot puts ESL under contract no one has found any evidence of that happening. | ||
RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:24 De4ngus wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." source please http://www.twitch.tv/thegdstudio/b/316812097?t=1h22m45s | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:04 RockIronrod wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 18:24 De4ngus wrote: On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." source please http://www.twitch.tv/thegdstudio/b/316812097?t=1h22m45s Wow, if its true and not just trash talk, i can understand why every other moba's player hates LoL that much other than just making the game too simple | ||
StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." You guys have to get over this notion of esportu. They stand on their own. | ||
OopsOopsBaby
Singapore3425 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:58 Kaal wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." AHAHAAHHAHAA. Yeah except Dota 2 and HoN have been at a bunch of events that league has been at. Them contracts. Hurtin' that esports. care to explain. http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/05/09/league-of-legends-sign-up-today/ http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/05/25/sign-up-for-the-dreamhon-byoc-qualifier/ http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/04/10/dreamhack-dota-2-vengeance-cup/ | ||
RockIronrod
Australia1369 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:35 StarStruck wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." You guys have to get over this notion of esportu. They stand on their own. I put it in quotes because I don't really subscribe to it all that much myself. However, undercutting growth of the scene as a whole to purely profit yourself is a colossal dick move, and is stupid in the long run. I mean, I realize they ARE businesses, and they're trying to get every possible edge on the competition, but that doesn't mean that's acceptable. In the same way that I disapprove of sweat shops, I also disapprove of shady, downright dirty tactics like this. On June 16 2012 20:37 OopsOopsBaby wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 18:58 Kaal wrote: On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." AHAHAAHHAHAA. Yeah except Dota 2 and HoN have been at a bunch of events that league has been at. Them contracts. Hurtin' that esports. care to explain. http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/05/09/league-of-legends-sign-up-today/ http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/05/25/sign-up-for-the-dreamhon-byoc-qualifier/ http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/04/10/dreamhack-dota-2-vengeance-cup/ It's explained in the video I linked before, they specifically mention Dreamhack's exemption. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 16 2012 20:42 RockIronrod wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 20:35 StarStruck wrote: On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." You guys have to get over this notion of esportu. They stand on their own. I put it in quotes because I don't really subscribe to it all that much myself. However, undercutting growth of the scene as a whole to purely profit yourself is a colossal dick move, and is stupid in the long run. I mean, I realize they ARE businesses, and they're trying to get every possible edge on the competition, but that doesn't mean that's acceptable. In the same way that I disapprove of sweat shops, I also disapprove of shady, downright dirty tactics like this. Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 20:37 OopsOopsBaby wrote: On June 16 2012 18:58 Kaal wrote: On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." AHAHAAHHAHAA. Yeah except Dota 2 and HoN have been at a bunch of events that league has been at. Them contracts. Hurtin' that esports. care to explain. http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/05/09/league-of-legends-sign-up-today/ http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/05/25/sign-up-for-the-dreamhon-byoc-qualifier/ http://www.dreamhack.se/dhs12/2012/04/10/dreamhack-dota-2-vengeance-cup/ It's explained in the video I linked before, they specifically mention Dreamhack's exemption. Sure it is. As you said, it's a business. Tournament organizers can pay lip service to the community all they want by saying they wish their competitors well when in reality they want to be the go-to organizers for any tournament. It's a problem within the entire industry. One of the many reasons I keep saying, "If you care about your business and want to raise awareness and legitimacy you have a summit with all the major players for each game." You need 1 format like the World Cup. Rules should be right across the board. | ||
kAelle_sc
287 Posts
can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics | ||
kiy0
Portugal593 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? Lot of opportunities + lots of money + easy game | ||
snailz
Croatia900 Posts
On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics on what do you spend 300+ apm in dota2? or any other moba? it really is a question... moba games from my experience are fast as first 4 minutes of starcraft. sure you can spam and get those 300 apm, but actually using your multitasking/speed/mechanics as an advantage, very hard... but that's from my experience, it is not written in stone | ||
snailz
Croatia900 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. so it makes you feel better, even though you suck? starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft. there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering... | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:05 snailz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics on what do you spend 300+ apm in dota2? or any other moba? it really is a question... moba games from my experience are fast as first 4 minutes of starcraft. sure you can spam and get those 300 apm, but actually using your multitasking/speed/mechanics as an advantage, very hard... but that's from my experience, it is not written in stone Agreed even tho their map control is a great advantage, but since its a team game, if you miss something on the map, theres 4 other player to notify you. Everything is lot faster in any dota game, ever faster than the fights in Sc2, i wouldn't say their skills come trough even as much as into Sc2. Players shine with great micro, fast decision making and good overall understanding. Yes, you need to be fast to buy items and use abilities, but i really dont think so theres anything to use 300 apm for. Maybe in the heat of battle, the numbers goes up to 200~ or so, but theres no macro needed, other harassment or anything at all, just the battle. | ||
bubblegumbo
Taiwan1296 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. I don't either. Just because its not their game they're opposed to it. Tough luck. They're allowed to make their own choices as to what direction they take their careers. If a SC2 decided to make a switch to anything I would wish them good luck and all the best. | ||
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On June 16 2012 18:57 Djeez wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. Hardly a good thing, IMO. The grind for lvl 30 is way too long in my opinion, and the grind for runepages, runes and 16 champions is even more ridiculous. But I guess that's a necessity when your game is free. Never understood the mentality of people saying you need as much experience as possible before doing ranked. There's ELO to sort out your skill level anyway. Probably because if you go into ranked with no experience, and feed horribly you arent only dropping your elo you're also losing the other 4 players on your team elo just because you were too awful to play some first. thats why. | ||
DURRHURRDERP
Canada929 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:08 snailz wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. so it makes you feel better, even though you suck? starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft. there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering... Without a "casual crowd" and new people playing the game, a game dies. Look at Broodwar, for the last 10 years+ it has been hugely popular in Korea, but outside of Korea, the game died. When's the last time the BW scene in NA was even remotely close in size and scope to the Korean one (2000, 2001, 2002? 10+ years ago...)? How was my comparison between the games silly? Did you even read my post? I said that BW (and SC2 to a lesser extent) is highly reliant on mechanical skill - I think everyone who has ever played Broodwar and who has been reading TL for a long time can recall the countless number of newbs who in the past have posted replays and simply gotten a reply of "macro better" or "your macro is terrible" or something along those lines. Mechanical skill is discrete and obvious (more so in BW than SC2), while LoL (which is not mechanically challenging) instead rewards knowledge based skill which is essentially "invisible". Just because LoL lacks the "flashy" skill component doesn't mean it's skill-less. Is Chess or Bridge skill-less because you don't need 300 APM? There are people who don't/can't play BW+SC2 and watch it at events + barcrafts etc because the game requires a huge input and upkeep of skill to play - you can't play 1v1s "casually". This is completely different from LoL as ding - surprise - LoL is casual friendly! People can actually continue to play the game casually while enjoying pro matches. There are tertiary reasons why LoL can be boring to watch (for me: the snowball heavy aspect of play in tournament level games and the relative staleness of the competitive NA scene, etc can make tournament level games kinda boring) but I guess the people who would rather play than watch have their own reasons. They can play LoL casually with friends as a social event, and there aren't any Barcraft equivalents to LoL yet (nowhere to actually watch the games as a social event unless you attend the tournaments in person). | ||
DURRHURRDERP
Canada929 Posts
On June 16 2012 23:50 arb wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 18:57 Djeez wrote: On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. Hardly a good thing, IMO. The grind for lvl 30 is way too long in my opinion, and the grind for runepages, runes and 16 champions is even more ridiculous. But I guess that's a necessity when your game is free. Never understood the mentality of people saying you need as much experience as possible before doing ranked. There's ELO to sort out your skill level anyway. Probably because if you go into ranked with no experience, and feed horribly you arent only dropping your elo you're also losing the other 4 players on your team elo just because you were too awful to play some first. thats why. This is kinda off topic, but whatever. The grind to level 30 isn't bad TBH. It's about 150 wins and 150 losses. You can easily afford 16 champions by the time you hit lvl 30 as long as you don't buy all of the most expensive 6300 IP champs (instead opting for the cheapest/cheaper ones). In terms of experience, I can't vouch for most people but I felt that after 300~ normal games (getting to level 30) I was able to do fine in ranked (pretty much gave up playing normals for the most part once I hit 30). On topic, I'm sure that any BW pros that switch to LoL will be using their time far more efficiently than the average casual player. I'm sure Grape and Point have probably already been playing LoL and are lvl 30 and most likely high elo ranked in solo queue already (before deciding to go "pro"). Does anyone have their Korean server LoL ids? (we could check fow.kr for their ranked elos) It would be kind of interesting to see how fast you could train 5 absolutely new players to LoL (or DOTA2 for that matter) with a background in a game like BW. 5 mid-tier ex-BW pros starting from scratch in LoL and queuing every game as an arranged 5 team (in normals) starting from level 1 could conceivably be mid-high elo level in solo queue (in terms of game knowledge/experience) by the time they hit level 30. | ||
Ryo
8787 Posts
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 17 2012 00:31 DURRHURRDERP wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 22:08 snailz wrote: On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. so it makes you feel better, even though you suck? starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft. there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering... Without a "casual crowd" and new people playing the game, a game dies. Look at Broodwar, for the last 10 years+ it has been hugely popular in Korea, but outside of Korea, the game died. When's the last time the BW scene in NA was even remotely close in size and scope to the Korean one (2000, 2001, 2002? 10+ years ago...)? How was my comparison between the games silly? Did you even read my post? I said that BW (and SC2 to a lesser extent) is highly reliant on mechanical skill - I think everyone who has ever played Broodwar and who has been reading TL for a long time can recall the countless number of newbs who in the past have posted replays and simply gotten a reply of "macro better" or "your macro is terrible" or something along those lines. Mechanical skill is discrete and obvious (more so in BW than SC2), while LoL (which is not mechanically challenging) instead rewards knowledge based skill which is essentially "invisible". Just because LoL lacks the "flashy" skill component doesn't mean it's skill-less. Is Chess or Bridge skill-less because you don't need 300 APM? There are people who don't/can't play BW+SC2 and watch it at events + barcrafts etc because the game requires a huge input and upkeep of skill to play - you can't play 1v1s "casually". This is completely different from LoL as ding - surprise - LoL is casual friendly! People can actually continue to play the game casually while enjoying pro matches. There are tertiary reasons why LoL can be boring to watch (for me: the snowball heavy aspect of play in tournament level games and the relative staleness of the competitive NA scene, etc can make tournament level games kinda boring) but I guess the people who would rather play than watch have their own reasons. They can play LoL casually with friends as a social event, and there aren't any Barcraft equivalents to LoL yet (nowhere to actually watch the games as a social event unless you attend the tournaments in person). I'm sorry. Who are you again? The Brood War scene outside of Korea never had the money/sponsorships that we have now. Everything was grassroots based and our scene was based on the love of the game. The amount of contributions we had, clan leagues, nation wars, etc. was ridiculous. Dweebs need to brush up on their material. You cannot compare the two scenes at all. So stop right there. It's funny how many times this has been brought up over the course of the last 6 months. You guys don't know our scene existed. Fine, but keep the tongue in cheek comments to yourself or at least try to look shit up before you start your rants. | ||
Veldril
Thailand1817 Posts
What I worry though, is that DotA2 is almost out. With Valve upping their support in the game, I think it's really possible that DotA2 could become a dominant MOBA games around the world, and possibly overtakes LoL. And if that's happen, I just hope that Korean scene would be able to adapt to the rest of the world. | ||
Kaniol
Poland5551 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:54 Veldril wrote: Best of luck to Grape and others for their stints in LoL. What I worry though, is that DotA2 is almost out. With Valve upping their support in the game, I think it's really possible that DotA2 could become a dominant MOBA games around the world, and possibly overtakes LoL. And if that's happen, I just hope that Korean scene would be able to adapt to the rest of the world. Don't worry, LoL is so much more different in terms of many design choices that i'm pretty sure both games will coexist. At least i hope so since both games have different feeling and i'd REALLY hate to be limited to playing only one, which for some weird reason seems to be the goal of all people who hate either game | ||
snailz
Croatia900 Posts
On June 17 2012 01:42 StarStruck wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 00:31 DURRHURRDERP wrote: On June 16 2012 22:08 snailz wrote: On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. so it makes you feel better, even though you suck? starcraft is hard as fuck, i see how that doesnt appeal to casual crowd... but still, comparing any moba game to sc is silly skill-wise, i would think. and as a spectator sport, i still give edge to starcraft. there are people who dont/cant play starcraft but still watch it. are there similiar cases in moba games? meaning, is it still fun to watch after you stop playing it? ive heard so many times "LoL is fun to play boring to watch", so im wondering... Without a "casual crowd" and new people playing the game, a game dies. Look at Broodwar, for the last 10 years+ it has been hugely popular in Korea, but outside of Korea, the game died. When's the last time the BW scene in NA was even remotely close in size and scope to the Korean one (2000, 2001, 2002? 10+ years ago...)? How was my comparison between the games silly? Did you even read my post? I said that BW (and SC2 to a lesser extent) is highly reliant on mechanical skill - I think everyone who has ever played Broodwar and who has been reading TL for a long time can recall the countless number of newbs who in the past have posted replays and simply gotten a reply of "macro better" or "your macro is terrible" or something along those lines. Mechanical skill is discrete and obvious (more so in BW than SC2), while LoL (which is not mechanically challenging) instead rewards knowledge based skill which is essentially "invisible". Just because LoL lacks the "flashy" skill component doesn't mean it's skill-less. Is Chess or Bridge skill-less because you don't need 300 APM? There are people who don't/can't play BW+SC2 and watch it at events + barcrafts etc because the game requires a huge input and upkeep of skill to play - you can't play 1v1s "casually". This is completely different from LoL as ding - surprise - LoL is casual friendly! People can actually continue to play the game casually while enjoying pro matches. There are tertiary reasons why LoL can be boring to watch (for me: the snowball heavy aspect of play in tournament level games and the relative staleness of the competitive NA scene, etc can make tournament level games kinda boring) but I guess the people who would rather play than watch have their own reasons. They can play LoL casually with friends as a social event, and there aren't any Barcraft equivalents to LoL yet (nowhere to actually watch the games as a social event unless you attend the tournaments in person). I'm sorry. Who are you again? The Brood War scene outside of Korea never had the money/sponsorships that we have now. Everything was grassroots based and our scene was based on the love of the game. The amount of contributions we had, clan leagues, nation wars, etc. was ridiculous. Dweebs need to brush up on their material. You cannot compare the two scenes at all. So stop right there. It's funny how many times this has been brought up over the course of the last 6 months. You guys don't know our scene existed. Fine, but keep the tongue in cheek comments to yourself or at least try to look shit up before you start your rants. what this guy said, and also, you don't play chess with 4 other people that get you out of trouble because you're not grandmaster level. in starcraft, one or two, you either got it or you don't. comparing those games with moba is doing mobas a favour. and i don't mean that in mean insulting way, it's just how it is. on another note, even LoL players emphasise teamwork in their game, and to me, while those skills are nice to have, as an employer on a highest level of whichever industry, i would always hire a God with individual skills and let him supervise a group of minions (for which i would only then consider if they are team players). but for him - no. he's the Flash of my industry so he needs to have individual skills that outshine everyone and everything around him, in other words, i want the best of the best. that's what you get with starcraft, and don't get with moba. people brush mechanics aside like it's nothing, while it's actually most important part of the game, because they make it so hard. having strategy is nice, and consulting with four other people is okay. now considering that order and skillsets, i would say that's why broodwar is better than sc2, and sc2 better than any moba game. but it's only how i see things, and nobody has to agree with it. i think i'll enjoy dota2, but i don't plan on saying it's better then sc2 because i like it more, same way i don't get mad for bw elitists comparing two starcrafts (/trashing sc2) | ||
Veldril
Thailand1817 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:11 Kaniol wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 01:54 Veldril wrote: Best of luck to Grape and others for their stints in LoL. What I worry though, is that DotA2 is almost out. With Valve upping their support in the game, I think it's really possible that DotA2 could become a dominant MOBA games around the world, and possibly overtakes LoL. And if that's happen, I just hope that Korean scene would be able to adapt to the rest of the world. Don't worry, LoL is so much more different in terms of many design choices that i'm pretty sure both games will coexist. At least i hope so since both games have different feeling and i'd REALLY hate to be limited to playing only one, which for some weird reason seems to be the goal of all people who hate either game Yeah, I kinda can't understand why people has to like only one game and hate others... | ||
MeriaDoKk
Chile1726 Posts
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Taku
Canada2036 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. | ||
Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. Pretty sure there are idiots in both fanbase. Good luck to Grape ! The new format might be way too stressful for bw players ![]() | ||
arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics You know you're only controlling 1 hero right? | ||
dellesh1ruH
Denmark509 Posts
On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. This! I completely agree. | ||
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ImbaTosS
United Kingdom1685 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:45 dellesh1ruH wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. This! I completely agree. Who is criticising...? | ||
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:50 ImbaTosS wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 03:45 dellesh1ruH wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. This! I completely agree. Who is criticising...? have you read the thread ahahaha | ||
Veldril
Thailand1817 Posts
On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. | ||
TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The think I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Yeah seriously...lmao. | ||
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 16 2012 17:49 RockIronrod wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 15:40 De4ngus wrote: great post by durrhurrderp. the amount LoL haters makes me sick. or people who try to shit on other games in general. "its too easy its hurting esports" ROFL you are the ones hurting esports. Riot puts into their contract for every tournament League is involved in that they can't have any other games from the same genre. That's the very definition of "hurting eSports." Riot pays tournaments prize money and Dota/HoN don't. That is the extent of their "shadiness". Source: And MLG Gold Q+A with Sundance Giovanni, when someone asked if Dota2 would be in MLG, he said Riot supported their game financially (prize money) and Valve didn't. It's true that LoL's scene is a lot less organic than BW's or even SC2's, but if people are really enjoying it, I don't think that's all that bad. | ||
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Antoine
United States7481 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:22 arb wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics You know you're only controlling 1 hero right? not necessarily true in dota! | ||
flashimba
225 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Please stop pulling this sort of nonsense. It's more likely that the people who moved from BW to SC2 simply moved again to LoL for the same reasons--a newer game and a bigger and richer scene. And now people are pissed that those hoppers have abandoned their game. | ||
Soap
Brazil1546 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. If it is called StarCraft obviously there's gonna be comparison, on the other hand most people commenting about LoL don't care about DotA. | ||
Taku
Canada2036 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:19 flashimba wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Please stop pulling this sort of nonsense. It's more likely that the people who moved from BW to SC2 simply moved again to LoL for the same reasons--a newer game and a bigger and richer scene. And now people are pissed that those hoppers have abandoned their game. SC2 was never their game though that's the thing | ||
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() Because I would rather the players take in something that they actually enjoy instead of being forced down the throat something else. And we are totally empathetic about their choice. | ||
habeck
1120 Posts
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WHyTePoWeR
Korea (South)132 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:29 Xiphos wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() Because I would rather the players take in something that they actually enjoy instead of being forced down the throat something else. And we are totally empathetic about their choice. well it was sort of the same for bw, didn't stork mention how his slump happened because their team was forced to practice bw and he got bored and started playing wow? Also LoL is easier to switch to than sc2 because its an easy game to get into and its popular right now | ||
SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() uggghhhh any bitterness towards sc2 is because it is an unworthy sequel. LoL is a whole nother thing. but hey while your at it call me a hypocrite for liking bw and mario kart. | ||
jpak
United States5045 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:15 ShadeR wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() uggghhhh any bitterness towards sc2 is because it is an unworthy sequel. LoL is a whole nother thing. but hey while your at it call me a hypocrite for liking bw and mario kart. As I declare over and over again: "we wouldn't be talking about this game if it wasn't named Starcraft." Its success has been built almost purely on that brand name, and therefore it will be unable to step out of its predecessor's shadow. | ||
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:22 arb wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics You know you're only controlling 1 hero right? Yea, I don't get why people think high level RTS mechanics are going to translate directly into MOBA skill. The games are different in both mechanics and gameplay dynamic. 1v1 vs 5v5. Hardcore multitasking and economy management vs. almost solely micromanagement based play. It's almost like thinking pro FPS players could transition to RTS because they can click accurately and click fast -.-;; | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 03:22 arb wrote: On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics You know you're only controlling 1 hero right? Yea, I don't get why people think high level RTS mechanics are going to translate directly into MOBA skill. The games are different in both mechanics and gameplay dynamic. 1v1 vs 5v5. Hardcore multitasking and economy management vs. almost solely micromanagement based play. It's almost like thinking pro FPS players could transition to RTS because they can click accurately and click fast -.-;; Except the console fps players, we all hate them and think that they are skilless compared to true pc fps pros | ||
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:35 Darksoldierr wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote: On June 17 2012 03:22 arb wrote: On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics You know you're only controlling 1 hero right? Yea, I don't get why people think high level RTS mechanics are going to translate directly into MOBA skill. The games are different in both mechanics and gameplay dynamic. 1v1 vs 5v5. Hardcore multitasking and economy management vs. almost solely micromanagement based play. It's almost like thinking pro FPS players could transition to RTS because they can click accurately and click fast -.-;; Except the console fps players, we all hate them and think that they are skilless compared to true pc fps pros console fps players? console players ;p | ||
flashimba
225 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 03:22 arb wrote: On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics You know you're only controlling 1 hero right? Yea, I don't get why people think high level RTS mechanics are going to translate directly into MOBA skill. The games are different in both mechanics and gameplay dynamic. 1v1 vs 5v5. Hardcore multitasking and economy management vs. almost solely micromanagement based play. It's almost like thinking pro FPS players could transition to RTS because they can click accurately and click fast -.-;; Why does it even matter whether skills translate across or not? | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Maybe they feel mechanics and concentration are more important in a 1:1 RTS setting's entertainment, and the LoL and other such games have a higher emphasis on team work and team strategy and novel units which counteract any supposed lower mechanical demands they might have? It's harder to compare games of different genres, the same way it's harder to compare action movies to comedies. The qualities you look for in them are totally different. I would also say it's pretty likely people have a lot of other reasons for disliking SC2 other than mechanics, and that it's weird to generalise them to make them out to be hypocrits, when there isn't really much reason to believe those happy about LoL are the same people who hate SC2 purely because of MBS and stuff. So I guess it's pretty funny if you don't think much. | ||
Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:43 Chef wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Maybe they feel mechanics and concentration are more important in a 1:1 RTS setting's entertainment, and the LoL and other such games have a higher emphasis on team work and team strategy and novel units which counteract any supposed lower mechanical demands they might have? It's harder to compare games of different genres, the same way it's harder to compare action movies to comedies. The qualities you look for in them are totally different. I would also say it's pretty likely people have a lot of other reasons for disliking SC2 other than mechanics, and that it's weird to generalise them to make them out to be hypocrits, when there isn't really much reason to believe those happy about LoL are the same people who hate SC2 purely because of MBS and stuff. So I guess it's pretty funny if you don't think much. Nah, they just hate how bad Sc2 is ![]() User was temp banned for this post. | ||
SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On June 17 2012 05:42 flashimba wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 05:27 SupLilSon wrote: On June 17 2012 03:22 arb wrote: On June 16 2012 21:11 kAelle_sc wrote: if europeans, americans, chinese can support full time pro dota 2 teams, why cant koreans? can't wait till koreans show us how dota 2 can be played with 300+ apm and high level mechanics You know you're only controlling 1 hero right? Yea, I don't get why people think high level RTS mechanics are going to translate directly into MOBA skill. The games are different in both mechanics and gameplay dynamic. 1v1 vs 5v5. Hardcore multitasking and economy management vs. almost solely micromanagement based play. It's almost like thinking pro FPS players could transition to RTS because they can click accurately and click fast -.-;; Why does it even matter whether skills translate across or not? It doesn't matter, but tons of people seem to think it does. 400 sc APM doesn't mean very much in DOTA or LOL | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2. I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant. Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game. | ||
BtBEviL
Brazil35 Posts
LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. User was warned for this post | ||
Fyodor
Canada971 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:18 maximuspita wrote: To make a level headed post, the assertion of the transition from BW to SC2 makes more sense because the underlining skills are similar is very weak and, I would argue, actually wrong. The thing is that most good BW pros have been playing BW for at least 3 years at the top level. This level demands an intuitive level of understanding. When you transition from this to a game that has a similar coat of paint but is foundational different (Such as BW->SC2), these differences 'feel' very wrong. This means that good habits before now are bad habits and these are a chore to unlearn. This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2. I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant. Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game. The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros. All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become. Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros. | ||
setzer
United States3284 Posts
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hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:59 Fyodor wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 08:18 maximuspita wrote: To make a level headed post, the assertion of the transition from BW to SC2 makes more sense because the underlining skills are similar is very weak and, I would argue, actually wrong. The thing is that most good BW pros have been playing BW for at least 3 years at the top level. This level demands an intuitive level of understanding. When you transition from this to a game that has a similar coat of paint but is foundational different (Such as BW->SC2), these differences 'feel' very wrong. This means that good habits before now are bad habits and these are a chore to unlearn. This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2. I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant. Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game. The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros. All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become. Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros. No other RTS except WC3 has practice houses, people who have a salary off it, and people who practice as much as BW players do though. Even if the transition from BW to SC2 is harder because they have to unlearn things, BW players will do better than players from other games such as CnC 3 since they have more experience in pro gaming. | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:59 Fyodor wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 08:18 maximuspita wrote: To make a level headed post, the assertion of the transition from BW to SC2 makes more sense because the underlining skills are similar is very weak and, I would argue, actually wrong. The thing is that most good BW pros have been playing BW for at least 3 years at the top level. This level demands an intuitive level of understanding. When you transition from this to a game that has a similar coat of paint but is foundational different (Such as BW->SC2), these differences 'feel' very wrong. This means that good habits before now are bad habits and these are a chore to unlearn. This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2. I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant. Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game. The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros. All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become. Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros. You see, that was the original reasoning of the Elephant in the Room article and it has failed. Why? Because almost every single person you listed began SC2 since its release (and some of them even from the beta). Take a look at the elo chart and notice how the top ranks are dominated by people who started early. Symbol is arguably the latest one to transition whose first recorded game was August 2011 (and he only played BW qualifiers, se he was not part of the team's A main roster, much like most of the top SC2 players right now). The second wave of BW progamers such as Fin and Hyun did not meet with the same success because they started late 2011. Learning a new game takes time,regardless of 'similar' mechanics, and especially if you have to unlearn bad habits and catch up to the new and ever progressing metagame. Now the current BW pros, they have to do this in very short manner and with the expectations to achieve the same results (in some cases higher) while at the same time diverting attention to BW games. The SC2 player base is saturated and the potential earnings are very low. They might not even have the same drive to learn SC2 as they did for BW. Note: I am not saying that current BW pros will never be great SC2 players. What I am saying is that the current condition makes it very hard for most of them to transition. | ||
aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On June 17 2012 04:54 WHyTePoWeR wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:29 Xiphos wrote: On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() Because I would rather the players take in something that they actually enjoy instead of being forced down the throat something else. And we are totally empathetic about their choice. well it was sort of the same for bw, didn't stork mention how his slump happened because their team was forced to practice bw and he got bored and started playing wow? Also LoL is easier to switch to than sc2 because its an easy game to get into and its popular right now I don't think he was ever bored of bw. All bw pros became pros because they love the game. Sure, they play other games sometimes but their main focus is completely on bw. There's no way you can not love a game and practice 12hours a day. That's completely illogical. | ||
Djeez
543 Posts
On June 16 2012 23:50 arb wrote: Show nested quote + On June 16 2012 18:57 Djeez wrote: On June 16 2012 18:27 DURRHURRDERP wrote: I know, I played SC2 a lot before LoL, but the SC2 system of placement matches is only 5, and after that if you're winning around 50% of your matches you'll basically never leave the league you're placed in. LoL for new players has the level/exp progression so for new players even if they're winning/losing 50% they're still "progressing" by leveling up and unlocking new content. Hardly a good thing, IMO. The grind for lvl 30 is way too long in my opinion, and the grind for runepages, runes and 16 champions is even more ridiculous. But I guess that's a necessity when your game is free. Never understood the mentality of people saying you need as much experience as possible before doing ranked. There's ELO to sort out your skill level anyway. Probably because if you go into ranked with no experience, and feed horribly you arent only dropping your elo you're also losing the other 4 players on your team elo just because you were too awful to play some first. thats why. Obviously if the grind requirement to be able to do ranked was lower the default ELO would be lower than 1200 and/or would only match your with people new to ranked as well... It's a silly concept. The grind is already very tedious for runes, and the experience one is just totally useless in my eyes. | ||
baubo
China3370 Posts
On June 17 2012 10:51 aupstar wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:54 WHyTePoWeR wrote: On June 17 2012 04:29 Xiphos wrote: On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() Because I would rather the players take in something that they actually enjoy instead of being forced down the throat something else. And we are totally empathetic about their choice. well it was sort of the same for bw, didn't stork mention how his slump happened because their team was forced to practice bw and he got bored and started playing wow? Also LoL is easier to switch to than sc2 because its an easy game to get into and its popular right now I don't think he was ever bored of bw. All bw pros became pros because they love the game. Sure, they play other games sometimes but their main focus is completely on bw. There's no way you can not love a game and practice 12hours a day. That's completely illogical. Anything you do over and over becomes boring after a while. Many progamers have mentioned how they started off loving BW, but once you get into a team it becomes more work and less about loving it. Also, Samsung Khan is notorious for its shorter practice schedules. And Stork is notorious for not practicing a lot even for the finals. In contrast to Flash and Jaedong, who in their first OSL wins against Stork basically practiced til their arms fell off. | ||
jimmydu444
Canada250 Posts
Not that anyone cares, but I also find it ironic that the korean's most popular game is owned by a chinese company known for its instant messenger and shitty flash games. The battle for the korean computer game players is being fought. On one hand, you have the legendary company Blizzard who its but a shadow of its former self and is screwing up every chance they have to raise SC2 into the heights that BW once stood upon. On the other hand, you have a chinese company agressively throwing money into the Korean market to promote a clone of Dota created by Dota's worst designer to date. Whoever wins, we lose. And frankly, I don't really cares. Dota 2 is on the verge of being released and I have faith that the chinese Dota fanbase will switch over and not fall into the pit of despire that is LoL. | ||
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 17 2012 10:51 aupstar wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 04:54 WHyTePoWeR wrote: On June 17 2012 04:29 Xiphos wrote: On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() Because I would rather the players take in something that they actually enjoy instead of being forced down the throat something else. And we are totally empathetic about their choice. well it was sort of the same for bw, didn't stork mention how his slump happened because their team was forced to practice bw and he got bored and started playing wow? Also LoL is easier to switch to than sc2 because its an easy game to get into and its popular right now I don't think he was ever bored of bw. All bw pros became pros because they love the game. Sure, they play other games sometimes but their main focus is completely on bw. There's no way you can not love a game and practice 12hours a day. That's completely illogical. Are you implying SC2 players love SC2? A lot of Korean teams practice as much as KeSPA teams nowadays. | ||
SCMothership
United States187 Posts
On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It is definitely the money and popularity | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:05 SCMothership wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2012 17:09 LeapofFaith wrote: Hmmm any reason why quite a few ex-SC players are moving to LoL? It is definitely the money and popularity Same reason why MC, Nestea, MvP, MKP, Idra, Tester, Artosis, Day9, Tasteless, etc moved to SC2 two years ago. They also could have enjoyed the game back then(and still enjoy playing SC2). Who knows? Edit: What I am saying people have to make the best possible economic decision with respect to the current situation. Right, for Kespa players, a BW->SC2 is not the obvious answer as many of you would like to believe. | ||
aupstar
Australia912 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:31 Ribbon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 10:51 aupstar wrote: On June 17 2012 04:54 WHyTePoWeR wrote: On June 17 2012 04:29 Xiphos wrote: On June 17 2012 04:25 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 04:00 Veldril wrote: On June 17 2012 02:51 Taku wrote: On June 16 2012 22:25 bubblegumbo wrote: I don't see the criticism for moving from BW to LoL, it's getting bigger in Korea so it's a logical choice for any BW player that still want to remain as a pro-gamer yet not wishing to play SC2. Stop comparing SC2 skillcap to LoL, its like comparing a team sport like basketball to individual sports like golf/tennis. You'll see there's actually almost no one criticizing this lol, at least from the BW fans. It's only SC2 fans getting bothered by this I think. The thing I find it kinda funny is that many people hate SC2 for "being easy with MBS, automining, etc", and then cheer on to LoL, which is a dumb down version of DotA/DotA2. It's kinda make their argument not really logical anymore ![]() Don't get me wrong, I don't hate LoL. It's just funny for me that people can be this illogical just to spite the game they hate. Hypocrites ![]() Because I would rather the players take in something that they actually enjoy instead of being forced down the throat something else. And we are totally empathetic about their choice. well it was sort of the same for bw, didn't stork mention how his slump happened because their team was forced to practice bw and he got bored and started playing wow? Also LoL is easier to switch to than sc2 because its an easy game to get into and its popular right now I don't think he was ever bored of bw. All bw pros became pros because they love the game. Sure, they play other games sometimes but their main focus is completely on bw. There's no way you can not love a game and practice 12hours a day. That's completely illogical. Are you implying SC2 players love SC2? A lot of Korean teams practice as much as KeSPA teams nowadays. Well if no one is forcing them to play it then yes. | ||
Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. | ||
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:14 Lysanias wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over. | ||
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:04 De4ngus wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 14:14 Lysanias wrote: On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over. I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once. | ||
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:07 SarcasmMonster wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 15:04 De4ngus wrote: On June 17 2012 14:14 Lysanias wrote: On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over. I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once. It's definitely possible for them to succeed but it will take a long time for sure. I would say at least a year. The Startale team has players from sc2 and they are a long way away from being anywhere near the skill level of the current top teams, although they recently picked up a really good player/leader. When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now). Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore. | ||
Gosi
Sweden9072 Posts
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:26 De4ngus wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 15:07 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 15:04 De4ngus wrote: On June 17 2012 14:14 Lysanias wrote: On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over. I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once. It's definitely possible for them to succeed but it will take a long time for sure. I would say at least a year. The Startale team has players from sc2 and they are a long way away from being anywhere near the skill level of the current top teams, although they recently picked up a really good player/leader. When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now). Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore. Masters is about top 5% of the ladder (the actual number is slightly different per region, but roughly 5%). | ||
De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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Blackrobe
United States806 Posts
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 17 2012 10:32 maximuspita wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 08:59 Fyodor wrote: On June 17 2012 08:18 maximuspita wrote: To make a level headed post, the assertion of the transition from BW to SC2 makes more sense because the underlining skills are similar is very weak and, I would argue, actually wrong. The thing is that most good BW pros have been playing BW for at least 3 years at the top level. This level demands an intuitive level of understanding. When you transition from this to a game that has a similar coat of paint but is foundational different (Such as BW->SC2), these differences 'feel' very wrong. This means that good habits before now are bad habits and these are a chore to unlearn. This happens time and time again when high level players make transitions in games especially in fighting games. Only the champions prevail in the transitions but mid tier players(which make up the majority of the skill pool) usually fade away(unless they dedicate the time necessary to become dominant again, which is not a trivial amount of time). I am convinced that the foundational skills necessary to thrive in BW where removed or are diametrically opposed to the ones in SC2. I am very knowledgable with Smash Brother Melee( which was the game that I once intended to go pro long ago) and quite familiar with the fighting game scene. To put it in simple terms, if you were merely a top competitor and not transcendental (Flash, Justin Wong, Daigo, etc) in that game, then your transition was going to be very rocky or downright unpleasant. Being a good Melee player did not automatically make you a good Brawl player. Being a good SF2 player did not automatically make you a good 3rd strike player. Being a good 3rd strike player did not automatically make you a good SF4 player. Being a good MvC2 player did not automatically make you a good MvC3 player. etc Most BW pros are in this same boat. I understand that I am drawing my example from a game genre that is nothing like RTS but clearly you must see that even though fighting games share many mechanics which you can hone, that doesn't mean you have a smooth transition our even outright dislike the direction of the new game. The best SC2 players are almost universally from a BW background. Nestea, MVP, MKP and MC have an iron grip on GSL championships and finals and they're all ex-BW pros. All of the great BW players of the past that have played SC2 have found at least some degree of success. (Slayers'Boxer, NaDa and July.) YellOw quit really early so we can't really say how good he would have become. Empirically speaking the BW skills are extremely relevant in SC2 and has been by far the best school for the game. Only GSL champions who have not been BW pros are Jjakji and DongRaeGu. Both of them were pretty good at BW even if they weren't exactly pros. You see, that was the original reasoning of the Elephant in the Room article and it has failed. Why? Because almost every single person you listed began SC2 since its release (and some of them even from the beta). Take a look at the elo chart and notice how the top ranks are dominated by people who started early. There's some cart-before-the-horse there. Perhaps the ones who started early were the ones who really liked SC2, and thus practiced more. A lot of people from that era also dropped out (LiveForever, BitByBit, Fruitdealer. and to a lesser extent MC, who's no longer the Big Three with MVP and Nestea). And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009. On June 17 2012 15:07 SarcasmMonster wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 15:04 De4ngus wrote: On June 17 2012 14:14 Lysanias wrote: On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over. I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once. There's also less competition. Fewer BW pros aren going to LoL compared to SC2, and LoL doesn't have BW-style team houses with years of practice. On June 17 2012 16:52 SarcasmMonster wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 15:26 De4ngus wrote: On June 17 2012 15:07 SarcasmMonster wrote: On June 17 2012 15:04 De4ngus wrote: On June 17 2012 14:14 Lysanias wrote: On June 17 2012 08:52 BtBEviL wrote: sc2 sux LoL is fun. That's why they go to LoL, simple like that. I'm afraid it's not that simple, for you see LoL is "easy" to get into compared to Sc2 and more importantly there is alot of money and popularity involved. for broodwar players? no way. sc2 is definitely an easier transition. there is so much to learn in a brand new game of a different genre especially when none of the mechanics you trained over the years translate over. I guess we'll see once we see Grape & co play some pro Lol games. Watching PL right now, and it's obvious that the transition from BW->SC2 isn't that easy. Transitioning to Lol has an advantage because Grape doesn't have to practice for 2 games at once. It's definitely possible for them to succeed but it will take a long time for sure. I would say at least a year. The Startale team has players from sc2 and they are a long way away from being anywhere near the skill level of the current top teams, although they recently picked up a really good player/leader. When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now). Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore. Masters is about top 5% of the ladder (the actual number is slightly different per region, but roughly 5%). Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros. | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
There's some cart-before-the-horse there. Perhaps the ones who started early were the ones who really liked SC2, and thus practiced more. A lot of people from that era also dropped out (LiveForever, BitByBit, Fruitdealer. and to a lesser extent MC, who's no longer the Big Three with MVP and Nestea). SC2 has a high attrition rate, just like BW. Agreed? Many of those retired were also ex BW progamers or BW hopefuls. Saying BW->SC2 automatically makes most sense is superficial reasoning. Especially considering that SC2 has established players. This makes it very hard to break in, unlike when things were undiscovered ground in 2010. Who would have thought Nestea would have dominated in SC2 from his BW pedigree? He doesn't have a single Proleague win. Fruitdealer had a 43% winrate in team leagues and quickly faded after his GSL gold. Success in BW doesn't automatically translate into success in SC2. Non-success in BW doesn't automatically translate into washing out of SC2. And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009. What's your point? | ||
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 18 2012 04:31 Ribbon wrote: Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros. Some numbers to back up this assertation The difference between Grandmaster and Master league is impressively large; after 28 minutes, a Grandmaster player has on average 19 more workers than a Master level player. Comparable differences exist between Diamond and Platinum, Platinum and Gold, and Silver and Bronze. Meanwhile, I found no significant differences between Master and Diamond, and Gold and Silver. SQ does quite a good job of separating the games of players from different leagues. And what’s particularly interesting is that the differences between leagues are greatest at the extremes. Despite Masters and above containing only 2% of the player population, there is a huge divide between the top of Grandmaster league and the bottom of Master league. I think there's also a significant difference in macro between a pro in a ladder game and a pro in a tournament, but I don't have a link for that, so it might just be convential wisdom and not actually proven. On June 18 2012 05:07 maximuspita wrote: Show nested quote + And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009. What's your point? That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2. | ||
Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On June 18 2012 05:19 Ribbon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 18 2012 04:31 Ribbon wrote: Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros. Some numbers to back up this assertation Show nested quote + The difference between Grandmaster and Master league is impressively large; after 28 minutes, a Grandmaster player has on average 19 more workers than a Master level player. Comparable differences exist between Diamond and Platinum, Platinum and Gold, and Silver and Bronze. Meanwhile, I found no significant differences between Master and Diamond, and Gold and Silver. Show nested quote + SQ does quite a good job of separating the games of players from different leagues. And what’s particularly interesting is that the differences between leagues are greatest at the extremes. Despite Masters and above containing only 2% of the player population, there is a huge divide between the top of Grandmaster league and the bottom of Master league. I think there's also a significant difference in macro between a pro in a ladder game and a pro in a tournament, but I don't have a link for that, so it might just be convential wisdom and not actually proven. Show nested quote + On June 18 2012 05:07 maximuspita wrote: And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009. What's your point? That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2. Fantasy already broke into the top player's club and Effort was like 80% there for beating Flash but then he decided to call in a quit. JangBi I would say at the moment is at the top. Hypothetically, if Brood War were to continue, the players are still playing fulltime, and Effort didn't end up quitting and missed an entire shift of plays in PvZ. We would have Effort as the Zerg leader (Or SoulKey in today's case), Fantasy the Terran's forerunner (taking Flash's throne), and JangBi as the Protoss hope. That itself is a new era. And then afterward, I can definitely see Mini improving on his nerves, Reality maybe finally able to break out because most of the game lost has been epicly close but I can see tons of good things from him. And as for Zerg, perhaps Hoejja if KT let the man practice for indies. Yes it is harder to make it big in BW because of the fierce competition but also what attributes to it is the lack of practice for the game and series of other factors. | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
On June 17 2012 15:26 De4ngus wrote: When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now). Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore. When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia). That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2. And this addresses my point how? It took TBLS years of training to get where they are and continued training to remain dominant. It is easier to break into LoL if one considers the difficulty alone. It is a better decision to try LoL given the popularity and sponsorship. | ||
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 18 2012 05:42 maximuspita wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 15:26 De4ngus wrote: When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now). Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore. When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia). No, he probably could. I'm solidy D on ICCUP and I'm platinum. But being Masters in SC2 is not at all like being A- in ICCUP, even if SC2 and BW were completely identical in every way, C-level ICCUP players would still be top masters, because top masters in SC2 - especially on NA - is not actually much of an achevement. And this addresses my point how? It took TBLS years of training to get where they are and continued training to remain dominant. It is easier to break into LoL if one considers the difficulty alone. It is a better decision to try LoL given the popularity and sponsorship. Well, I don't think anyone who would be scared by how hard SC2 is to get into would've become a BW progamer in the first place, because it's even harder to get into BW. (On the other hand: If the BW scene was perfectly fine, would B-teamers still be jumping into LoL thinking it was easy money? Dunno.) | ||
N.geNuity
United States5112 Posts
On June 18 2012 05:42 maximuspita wrote: Show nested quote + On June 17 2012 15:26 De4ngus wrote: When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now). Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore. When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia). . no, anybody who was c-/c skill (I don't mean proxy 2 gating to c- or dt rushing only or 9 pool speeding only) is going to be masters in sc2, so long as they play at least 3-5 weeks. I skipped a season, played only in the lock of another season, and laddered back to masters in ~2 weeks (though I played a lot in that time). But I played sc2 during release and all. Someone brand new to sc2 could take like 4-5 weeks. | ||
Kaal
Djibouti2514 Posts
There's also less competition. Fewer BW pros aren going to LoL compared to SC2, and LoL doesn't have BW-style team houses with years of practice. Most LoL teams have BW style teamhouses, in korea at least, many of them coached by former BW players or coaches. I dunno about less competition, since LoL has a much, much larger playerbase than SC2 in korea. | ||
maximuspita
1093 Posts
On June 18 2012 06:44 Ribbon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 18 2012 05:42 maximuspita wrote: On June 17 2012 15:26 De4ngus wrote: When I switched to sc2 from a year of playing broodwar I immediately hit masters, which was the highest league at the time. This is coming from C rank iccup. I ended up only playing sc2 for one csl season. Then I was introduced to LoL and it took me a whole year to reach 2000 elo, which is comparable to masters(I think lol. It is top 0.1%, idk what masters is now). Learning a completely new type of game is hard. All that multitask and macro I practiced doesn't mean shit anymore. When did you switch? Was it when SC2 was released? I guarantee you you wouldn't have the same success if you tried switching under the same conditions but today (That is only BW play and maybe some Builds from liquipedia). No, he probably could. I'm solidy D on ICCUP and I'm platinum. But being Masters in SC2 is not at all like being A- in ICCUP, even if SC2 and BW were completely identical in every way, C-level ICCUP players would still be top masters, because top masters in SC2 - especially on NA - is not actually much of an achevement. Show nested quote + That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2. And this addresses my point how? It took TBLS years of training to get where they are and continued training to remain dominant. It is easier to break into LoL if one considers the difficulty alone. It is a better decision to try LoL given the popularity and sponsorship. Well, I don't think anyone who would be scared by how hard SC2 is to get into would've become a BW progamer in the first place, because it's even harder to get into BW. (On the other hand: If the BW scene was perfectly fine, would B-teamers still be jumping into LoL thinking it was easy money? Dunno.) BW seems to be an enjoyable experience for these players, regardless of its difficulty. LoL seems to be an enjoyable experience regardless of learning new things(which is enjoyable on its own right). SC2 transition (considering ALL foreseeable parameters) seems to be very ambivalent to promising BW players such as Grape, Rush, Brave, etc. In such high competitive fields, transferable skills matter little while drive and passion much more. You won't have either if you do not enjoy what you are doing. Saying it makes much more sense just because of similar mechanics and not considering other options as I've presented is just shallow thinking. As someone else pointed out, LoL is 2nd most played game in PC Bangs. BW still ranks 6th. SC2 doesn't rank top 10. Maybe they honestly don't like it (It could have been Blizzard's horrible mismanagement but given the age I'd think it is out of there grasp). Maybe they find the transition stressful enough to retire. Current Kespa players have invested much time to play a game they love and are being transferred to a game we don't know if they even like. | ||
SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 18 2012 05:19 Ribbon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 18 2012 04:31 Ribbon wrote: Masters is top 2%, but there's a WORLD of difference between high masters and even semi-pro. Sase got in a bit of controversy for building like 17 manner nexuses against a Masters player. This is especially true on the NA server, which is considered the weakest server. Even Grandmasters on NA is considered a fairly meaningless accomplishment when compared to pros or semi-pros. Some numbers to back up this assertation Show nested quote + The difference between Grandmaster and Master league is impressively large; after 28 minutes, a Grandmaster player has on average 19 more workers than a Master level player. Comparable differences exist between Diamond and Platinum, Platinum and Gold, and Silver and Bronze. Meanwhile, I found no significant differences between Master and Diamond, and Gold and Silver. Show nested quote + SQ does quite a good job of separating the games of players from different leagues. And what’s particularly interesting is that the differences between leagues are greatest at the extremes. Despite Masters and above containing only 2% of the player population, there is a huge divide between the top of Grandmaster league and the bottom of Master league. I think there's also a significant difference in macro between a pro in a ladder game and a pro in a tournament, but I don't have a link for that, so it might just be convential wisdom and not actually proven. Show nested quote + On June 18 2012 05:07 maximuspita wrote: And while it's true that the big names have been mostly the same people for the last year (MVP, Nestea, MKP, with DRG being the latecomer from mid-2011), BW has been TBLS since 2009. What's your point? That it's even HARDER to break into BW than it is to break into SC2. I got it from here. (it's actually closer to 4.2%) http://sc2ranks.com/stats. Is the 2% number the top 2% of the general population or top 2% of ladderers? Because those numbers are obviously different. | ||
iky43210
United States2099 Posts
LoL is easy and very fun, you could go hours and hours at it without feeling like you're working. And due to the nature of team games, every win is your contribution and every loss is not your fault. No pressure = you can keep going at it | ||
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 18 2012 14:07 iky43210 wrote: starcraft is hard and tiring, not alot of fun. This isn't true when you're playing casually, and IS true when you're playing 14 hours a day with your job on the line. Which means even if BW players like LoL now, they might not like it 800 gameplay hours from now. | ||
Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On June 18 2012 14:07 iky43210 wrote: starcraft is hard and tiring, not alot of fun. LoL is easy and very fun, you could go hours and hours at it without feeling like you're working. And due to the nature of team games, every win is your contribution and every loss is not your fault. No pressure = you can keep going at it I can agree with the fact that starcraft is hard and tiring, but the "not alot of fun" is something that isn't true for everyone. Different people thrive in different scenario's. In sc2, you are in control of your own performance and that directly translates into how much succes you have. Your succes is not dependent on the people in your team like in DOTA like games and CS, factors that you, for the most part, cannot control. This can be very very frustrating and stressful. | ||
hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 18 2012 17:50 Fragile51 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 18 2012 14:07 iky43210 wrote: starcraft is hard and tiring, not alot of fun. LoL is easy and very fun, you could go hours and hours at it without feeling like you're working. And due to the nature of team games, every win is your contribution and every loss is not your fault. No pressure = you can keep going at it I can agree with the fact that starcraft is hard and tiring, but the "not alot of fun" is something that isn't true for everyone. Different people thrive in different scenario's. In sc2, you are in control of your own performance and that directly translates into how much succes you have. Your succes is not dependent on the people in your team like in DOTA like games and CS, factors that you, for the most part, cannot control. This can be very very frustrating and stressful. Proleague is very dependent on the other players on your team. Both them winning their games and them giving you good practice that week. Also the coaches being able to give you a favorable matchup. | ||
Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
On June 19 2012 11:21 hydrogg wrote: Show nested quote + On June 18 2012 17:50 Fragile51 wrote: On June 18 2012 14:07 iky43210 wrote: starcraft is hard and tiring, not alot of fun. LoL is easy and very fun, you could go hours and hours at it without feeling like you're working. And due to the nature of team games, every win is your contribution and every loss is not your fault. No pressure = you can keep going at it I can agree with the fact that starcraft is hard and tiring, but the "not alot of fun" is something that isn't true for everyone. Different people thrive in different scenario's. In sc2, you are in control of your own performance and that directly translates into how much succes you have. Your succes is not dependent on the people in your team like in DOTA like games and CS, factors that you, for the most part, cannot control. This can be very very frustrating and stressful. Proleague is very dependent on the other players on your team. Both them winning their games and them giving you good practice that week. Also the coaches being able to give you a favorable matchup. Yeah, but it's not really in the same way. If there was a BW team of Flash and four derps, they'd lose all the time, but Flash would either get a high salary or get poached by a better team. If your LoL team sucks, it can make you look bad as well. | ||
hydrogg
United States377 Posts
On June 19 2012 11:40 Ribbon wrote: Show nested quote + On June 19 2012 11:21 hydrogg wrote: On June 18 2012 17:50 Fragile51 wrote: On June 18 2012 14:07 iky43210 wrote: starcraft is hard and tiring, not alot of fun. LoL is easy and very fun, you could go hours and hours at it without feeling like you're working. And due to the nature of team games, every win is your contribution and every loss is not your fault. No pressure = you can keep going at it I can agree with the fact that starcraft is hard and tiring, but the "not alot of fun" is something that isn't true for everyone. Different people thrive in different scenario's. In sc2, you are in control of your own performance and that directly translates into how much succes you have. Your succes is not dependent on the people in your team like in DOTA like games and CS, factors that you, for the most part, cannot control. This can be very very frustrating and stressful. Proleague is very dependent on the other players on your team. Both them winning their games and them giving you good practice that week. Also the coaches being able to give you a favorable matchup. Yeah, but it's not really in the same way. If there was a BW team of Flash and four derps, they'd lose all the time, but Flash would either get a high salary or get poached by a better team. If your LoL team sucks, it can make you look bad as well. Flash and four derps + Show Spoiler + sounds like KT Rolster! ![]() | ||
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