EPTFantasy (OSL spoilers alert) - Page 7
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Balgrog
United States1221 Posts
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On June 01 2012 16:45 Ideas wrote: that's true regular season MVP could not possibly ever be wrong I would argue that fantasy showed more dominance in his games. they both only had 2 losses (flash to 2 protoss, fantasy to 2 terran). fantasy just played less games because his team wasn't as bad as flash's. 16-2 vs 13-2 regular season records and opponent difficulty favours flash if anyone. Having a strong team isn't an excuse, it might've saved Fantasy from dropping another game. Basically, Flash deserved MVP despite Fantasy's awesome season. Showing more dominance in the games? That's pretty subjective, alot of Flash's games looked disgustingly one sided. People forget so quickly the 14 game win streak to start the season. There was even a thread at the time trying to work out who, if anyone, could stop him. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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Ideas
United States8137 Posts
On June 01 2012 17:02 Scarecrow wrote: 16-2 vs 13-2 regular season records and opponent difficulty favours flash if anyone. Having a strong team isn't an excuse, it might've saved Fantasy from dropping another game. Basically, Flash deserved MVP despite Fantasy's awesome season. Showing more dominance in the games? That's pretty subjective, alot of Flash's games looked disgustingly one sided. People forget so quickly the 14 game win streak to start the season. There was even a thread at the time trying to work out who, if anyone, could stop him. I get what you're saying. ultimately it just really sucks how shitty the BW scene has been since the last OSL ended. such fewer chances for players to prove their skill. had fantasy been given as much opportunity in that time as other players had before him, I would argue that he would probably be just as dominate as TBLS at their respective peaks. unfortunately, we were not given that chance to see what he was fully made of and instead we have to extrapolate from how dominate his few games have been :\ | ||
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WTFTerran
Russian Federation286 Posts
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hitthat
Poland2267 Posts
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J1.au
Australia3596 Posts
On June 01 2012 17:28 Ideas wrote: I get what you're saying. ultimately it just really sucks how shitty the BW scene has been since the last OSL ended. such fewer chances for players to prove their skill. had fantasy been given as much opportunity in that time as other players had before him, I would argue that he would probably be just as dominate as TBLS at their respective peaks. unfortunately, we were not given that chance to see what he was fully made of and instead we have to extrapolate from how dominate his few games have been :\ You absolutely cannot say that. I mean what the hell, Fantasy isn't some young rookie who has burst on the scene only to find it ending before he can prove himself. He's a fucking 5 year veteran of the game. He has had opportunity after opportunity to prove himself and has come up short the vast majority of times. You just can't pretend like he didn't have his chances and must therefore "extrapolate" from his meager success in Brood War's dying days. | ||
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Marti
552 Posts
Is this the real life ? Is this just ... Fantasy ? | ||
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Operations
115 Posts
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n2o
55 Posts
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Chainedsage
United States37 Posts
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1ntrigue
Australia948 Posts
On June 01 2012 00:10 pred470r wrote: Sadly there is no time to be back. Next proleague will be all sc2, and next osl probably as well. Flash isn't out of the OSL yet. On June 01 2012 23:53 Chainedsage wrote: The Last Bonjwa It seems the word, "bonjwa" has lost all meaning now. | ||
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revy
United States1524 Posts
On June 01 2012 17:28 Ideas wrote: I get what you're saying. ultimately it just really sucks how shitty the BW scene has been since the last OSL ended. such fewer chances for players to prove their skill. had fantasy been given as much opportunity in that time as other players had before him, I would argue that he would probably be just as dominate as TBLS at their respective peaks. unfortunately, we were not given that chance to see what he was fully made of and instead we have to extrapolate from how dominate his few games have been :\ Fanta's first game on TLPD is before Flash's first game (I understand it's a miniscule amount of time before, but it's still before). He had enough time to rise to TBLS level, he didn't. It is sad that BW is dying as Fanta is showing his best play ever, but it's kinda silly to say Fanta didn't have opportunity. That's kind of like saying if Fanta plays his last BW game and wins that implies Fanta was going to have a 100% winrate from there on. But this is foolish, we shouldn't be arguing about things like this. Fanta has been playing excellent starcraft for quite a while and deserves the top spot on ELO. Let's hope for some good (exciting) series play from him. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
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Operations
115 Posts
On June 02 2012 02:07 forsooth wrote: Even as a fan of Fantasy, it's hard to say this means much of anything. The quality of play has dropped so sharply with all the SC2 practice going on that being the best BW player now doesn't mean nearly as much as it did even six months ago. I believe Fantasy would've eventually found his way to the top of the scene anyway if things had continued as normal, but as is, best BW player right now actually means "least amount of skill lost." I don't see any reasons why would any pro would play worse. They know the maps, they know their game and they played each scenario thousands of time. they did not forget how to play. | ||
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MetalPanda
Canada1152 Posts
On June 02 2012 02:59 Operations wrote: I don't see any reasons why would any pro would play worse. They know the maps, they know their game and they played each scenario thousands of time. they did not forget how to play. No but they get a bit confused between the games from time to time apparently, but I believe they'll get better and better at that constant switch with time. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On June 01 2012 12:00 Scarecrow wrote: I know which Fantasy would prefer. 21 games spread out or 21 games played over a short period of time in simultaneous leagues. Preparation counts for alot, it gives more time to adjust and come up with new timings/strategies. Especially if you throw in that Flash had to prepare and win ace/osl matches during his peak periods against players who had more time to prepare counters to how he was playing. 19/21 over 6 months (averages at slightly less than 1 game a week, no ace matches, only 1 map to prepare for) is impressive but in no way is it more impressive than similar records over a shorter time period. Preparation cuts BOTH ways. Progamers are streaky. This is fact. Players like Lucifer and Shine have wracked up 12+ game win streaks. Why? It's not just caliber of competition. They developed metagame advantages that worked for a while, but then they got figured out. Soo is the same way, although he's been much better about reworking his timings to maintain success. But at the end of the day, Soo depends heavily on the fact that once he develops a timing for his hydra break, it takes Protoss a while before they can shut down his timing. The fact is that preparation does not start the moment you find out about an upcoming match. Preparation is CONSTANT. Flash's massive win records came not from preparing specifically for specific opponents or specific maps, but from preparing strategies with the flexibility to not only generalize to many different maps, but to allow Flash the advantage of many different timing options. The genius of Flash is that every time his metagame advantages were figured out and negated he was ready with a new change. Like everyone else, he certainly did get some help from other Terrans who were pioneering effectively, just as Fantasy is getting today. But I am not talking about Flash. I am not comparing Fantasy to Flash or Oov or any past bonjwa or anybody. I am not comparing the league situation, the SC2 situation, or the quality of competition. Not to Flash, not to anybody. If this is what you want to argue, then argue it elsewhere because it's not my point and never has been my point. MY POINT is that if a 90% win rate were successfully maintained over a period of length in time that has been this long during a period where more games were played, then Fantasy would have a much higher ELO rating. Against the same caliber competition Fantasy is facing now with the same number of games as Flash was playing at his peak, probably about 2400. The reality is that he has only increased in ELO by approximately 80 points (approx 2250 to 2330) even though his opponents have had a respectable average ELO rating. Hence my original argument: Fantasy does not have time to replace Flash's ELO peak even if he can maintain this current level of dominance. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Zona
40426 Posts
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wassbix
Canada499 Posts
On June 02 2012 12:36 Zona wrote: It's amazing how some fans of a certain player can't accept that he's not clearly best anymore. On the other hand, its so weird watching Fantasy play nowadays. I'm no longer nervous about fantasy doing some weird build and dying to the most standard things, instead I just sit back grab a drink and watch some scrub get dismantled ezpz. This must be what Flash fans felt ; _ ; (feels goood) | ||
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