|
On April 08 2012 14:01 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 12:51 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 12:37 Ribbon wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. If BW fans want someone to blame for its death, they have only themselves to blame. On April 08 2012 03:24 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:
I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... Mostly because 30 bucks is "a lot". 10 bucks is also probably "a lot". Koreans are working off a much lower GDP. If you're making like 40K a year you're far far above what most koreans make. So I guess it's a bit more painful since you're a lot more tight on money. This was worse a few years ago when they were just recovering from the recession. They did have official streams. Daum for example had an official stream. They just never charged for it. On April 08 2012 03:02 Hundisilm wrote:
Any chance of the BW scene to pack up and move to the interwebs if OGN drops it? Internet should be a bit more friendly environment for a low cost production of content (can do more with less sponsor money). Sure. Things are kind of taking off in afreeca nowadays, esp with the old progamers streaming there. I imagine that if KeSPA ever does drop BW, there'll be people playing it on the internet, and some of them'll be really good. On April 08 2012 03:29 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:27 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... I think it's still not late if they are really in a pinch they could have open up a donation box with a title saying " You Love Bw ? We also do, but we need your help too, Please Donate to keep us around ^_^ " . If each person donates let say $10 a day and such I bet that fans are willing to go that far to help keep their scene . Although I don't mind paying to watch pro league .. still the donation method is one way bw scene can use it to fund proleague . Do you understand how desperate that sounds? The SECOND you do that, you're guaranteeing that you will never get a sponsor again. You just have to find a way to monetize BW, and KeSPA never really looked into it too much. A lot of teams just think of it as "community service" =/ (in fact this is explicit for STX) This, not the relative popularity of the games, in the reason SC2 looks so attractive. MLG has a PPV model with no sponsorships for it's Arenas, because they can get people to actually pay for it. That's a big deal. That's why I think there's actually a decent chance that this move is to make foreign money flow into BW. It's that a realistic thought? Make money on SC2 and use it to run BW at a loss? On your last point: The only thing KeSPA can offer is the BW players who are supposedly the best. That's their only selling point, or else GSL has them owned. If all the best players switch to SC2, why then sponsor BW? Why sink money into the game? They're businessmen. What if, hypothetically, Flash isn't as good in SC2 as he is in BW? ForGG and Hyun were both well ahead of other SC2 pros in BW skill, and both of them kind of diappointed, especially Hyun, who was top 30 Kespa rank for the same month he played his first game in (which is hardly Bonjwa, but way better than any other SC2 pro had been doing) and has an official GSL record of 0-3. It's true that "OMG Jaedong in SC2 omg" is the big draw, but if he disappoints, they're screwed.(Also, I think underdogs sell a lot better than I AM STAR FOREVER. It's why MarineKing is super-popular in SC2, and why I think Flash is hurting BW. It's very easy to paint TLBS as the Cobra Kai of SC2, which isn't what the sponsors want). Besides, TBLS are way more dominant in hypothetical SC2 than they'd probably be in SC2, even assuming they didn't just kind of suck and surprise everyone. The imagination's always sexier than the reality can ever be. Literally, if Flash switched to SC2, and was anything besides a Bonjwa, it would be a huge disappointment. Simply being a good A-teamer, or even a A-teamer with occasional streaks of scary dominance like MarineKing can have, isn't enough to cash the hype check.
But we're not talking about players transitioning to SC2 here. These are fully sponsored professional teams with enough financial backing to pay their top players very good salaries. And training regiment that has been around for years. They also have the best RTS talent in the world. So perhaps Jaedong doesn't become the best zerg in SC2, but likely some BW player will, maybe even someone as ridiculous as Shine or soO.
|
On April 08 2012 22:31 mburke05 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 22:17 Figgy wrote:Yes. But they all died 3 years ago. If threads like that didn't exist BW would still be strong as ever. You get tons of them nowadays but they are in the "How do I actually get interested in BW" type post. lol what. you joined this forum in 2011 how could you possibly know any of that?
Logic? If not a single person no longer found BW interesting anymore than BW wouldn't be dying. Simple enough? Just because a single person puts it into a thread for SC2 doesn't mean it doesn't hold true for both games. I found BW not very interesting to watch a couple years ago. At that time I wasn't into esports very much to begin with (having zero community outside a few friends probably hurts as well) but I became uninterested all the same.
Just because I didn't make a forum post about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.
|
1019 Posts
On April 08 2012 17:38 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 14:11 white_horse wrote:On April 08 2012 13:06 Lawliet wrote:
There is a international scene for SC2 and none for BW. It's really as simple as that.
Globalization is the future. BW has stagnated and the fanbase/money is drying out.
Don't get me wrong. BW is my first love and she will never be forgotten. But it's time to move on guys. SC2 might seem like feeble substitute but in good time balance will come. There's still two expansions and a buttload of patches in the works.
Honestly. Wouldn't you rather see the Jaedong, Bish or Flash slaying nerds all over the world with personal sponsorship or spearheading their own teams in SC2 rather than have them retire and go do their military service? BW has been declining because of the match-fixing scandal and because it is finally feeling the effects of turnover in the gaming industry, not "globalization". BW in korea has a self-sustaining system (mega sponsorship, draft system, centralized player oversight, etc). What happens to BW or SC2 outside korea has absolutely no effect on the korean BW community. They have their system, they have their supporters, and they like it. I can repeat this all day: BW and SC2 are not playing on a zero-sum field. The success or failure of one or the other isn't going to significantly affect the other. People have strong opinions of what they like and what they do not like. You can't change that. You can't force feed them something they feel is inferior (i.e SC2). This is why the idea that a BW decline will benefit SC2 is totally baseless. I hope SC2 fans understand that by saying things like "SC2 will get better from the two expansions" or "TBLS in SC2 will elevate the scene" you are suggesting that SC2 is currently in the shitter right now? If the game isn't exciting now, it's not going to get exciting because of a few tweaks unless the game is totally overhauled. SC2 is a game that apparantly cannot produce players that dominate over long periods of time. It rotates through GSL champions like a roulette and the whole competition feels lukewarm and flat as a result. What makes you think that flash or jaedong is suddenly going turn the game upside down? They are playing on SC2 terms. If BW is so self sustaining, why is it being removed from over half of PL and probably even completely replaced in the future? There's a disconnect here between your logic and the reality. I honestly don't care if BW dies, SC2 is 100% fine and growing every single day with it being alive. BW being removed from PL really isn't going to stop SC2 from growing. I don't think that sc2 isn't exciting or "in the shitter" at all. The game is exciting to me. Also your logic saying that it goes through GSL champions like a roulette is so completely lopsided to the opinions of most of the BW fans, regarding the legitimacy of BW's supremacy, it's comical. Haven't you guys been saying things like "BW's balance is so perfect, it's been perfected for over 12 years"? To say that one player should remain dominant while the game is still in its infancy, still being figured out, is like saying that Boxer should have always been the best BW player ever and the fact that he isn't means that the game wasn't balanced, was "in the shitter" and wasn't as perfect as many people like to say it always was. The fact that counters to builds, either through mechanics or scouting, are still being developed means the game is still developing. To expect it to be as figured out as BW is so soon is expecting too much. Let's check back in 10 years, and if Starcraft II is still around I guarantee you it won't even look like the same game that's being played today, the same way BW has completely changed over the last 10 years.
Your missing the point. The status of SC2 in the foreign community is totally irrelevant to the domestic BW and SC2 scene in south korea. If the foreigners like the way SC2 is right now, thats great. The "development" of SC2 isn't the point. The point is the level of popularity that SC2 can pull. SC2 in korea right now is nowhere near BW when BW first took off in terms of the excitement and mainstream viewership. BW was in a frenzy and there was nothing "developed" when they first began broadcasting it. You can cite the amount of cash pools and the number of SC2 teams all you want. None of it matters if SC2 can't pull in viewership from anyone other than casual SC2 players. It's turned into a highly niched gathering of a very small segment of the korean population.
This is at the heart of the anger with kespa apparantly deciding to combine BW and SC2 in proleague. If SC2 isn't attracting significant viewership, what makes kespa think that they are going to increase their viewership by adding SC2 into proleague? What if SC2 fans don't care about BW? What if BW fans don't care about SC2? They are probably going to lose viewers.
|
This whole "BW is dying" meme is bullshit as far as I'm concerned. I just watched the proleague finals and it looks alive and well to me. I guess in our capitalist world unless something is growing non-stop its "dying".
|
On April 08 2012 22:33 Instigata wrote:
sc2 is dying and getting owned by LoL. Gonna get worse when DOTA2 comes out. Blizzard is frantically trying to at least secure a foothold in Korea as a last ditch effort as they have run both BW and sc2 into the ground.
thats just not true dude
|
Still got 2 more OSL's and 3/4 proleague, and then world gonna get owned anyway.
So we BW fans obviously got the better deal.
|
Relax guys - KeSPA will try to include SC2 into BW and fail. Fans & Progamers will reject and the season after that we'll have BW PL once more. KT & SKT - you did it. You saved BW.
|
On April 09 2012 05:09 Emon_ wrote:
Relax guys - KeSPA will try to include SC2 into BW and fail. Fans & Progamers will reject and the season after that we'll have BW PL once more. KT & SKT - you did it. You saved BW.
Such an optimism. May hope be on our side.
|
On April 08 2012 23:16 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 17:38 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 14:11 white_horse wrote:On April 08 2012 13:06 Lawliet wrote:
There is a international scene for SC2 and none for BW. It's really as simple as that.
Globalization is the future. BW has stagnated and the fanbase/money is drying out.
Don't get me wrong. BW is my first love and she will never be forgotten. But it's time to move on guys. SC2 might seem like feeble substitute but in good time balance will come. There's still two expansions and a buttload of patches in the works.
Honestly. Wouldn't you rather see the Jaedong, Bish or Flash slaying nerds all over the world with personal sponsorship or spearheading their own teams in SC2 rather than have them retire and go do their military service? BW has been declining because of the match-fixing scandal and because it is finally feeling the effects of turnover in the gaming industry, not "globalization". BW in korea has a self-sustaining system (mega sponsorship, draft system, centralized player oversight, etc). What happens to BW or SC2 outside korea has absolutely no effect on the korean BW community. They have their system, they have their supporters, and they like it. I can repeat this all day: BW and SC2 are not playing on a zero-sum field. The success or failure of one or the other isn't going to significantly affect the other. People have strong opinions of what they like and what they do not like. You can't change that. You can't force feed them something they feel is inferior (i.e SC2). This is why the idea that a BW decline will benefit SC2 is totally baseless. I hope SC2 fans understand that by saying things like "SC2 will get better from the two expansions" or "TBLS in SC2 will elevate the scene" you are suggesting that SC2 is currently in the shitter right now? If the game isn't exciting now, it's not going to get exciting because of a few tweaks unless the game is totally overhauled. SC2 is a game that apparantly cannot produce players that dominate over long periods of time. It rotates through GSL champions like a roulette and the whole competition feels lukewarm and flat as a result. What makes you think that flash or jaedong is suddenly going turn the game upside down? They are playing on SC2 terms. If BW is so self sustaining, why is it being removed from over half of PL and probably even completely replaced in the future? There's a disconnect here between your logic and the reality. I honestly don't care if BW dies, SC2 is 100% fine and growing every single day with it being alive. BW being removed from PL really isn't going to stop SC2 from growing. I don't think that sc2 isn't exciting or "in the shitter" at all. The game is exciting to me. Also your logic saying that it goes through GSL champions like a roulette is so completely lopsided to the opinions of most of the BW fans, regarding the legitimacy of BW's supremacy, it's comical. Haven't you guys been saying things like "BW's balance is so perfect, it's been perfected for over 12 years"? To say that one player should remain dominant while the game is still in its infancy, still being figured out, is like saying that Boxer should have always been the best BW player ever and the fact that he isn't means that the game wasn't balanced, was "in the shitter" and wasn't as perfect as many people like to say it always was. The fact that counters to builds, either through mechanics or scouting, are still being developed means the game is still developing. To expect it to be as figured out as BW is so soon is expecting too much. Let's check back in 10 years, and if Starcraft II is still around I guarantee you it won't even look like the same game that's being played today, the same way BW has completely changed over the last 10 years. Your missing the point. The status of SC2 in the foreign community is totally irrelevant to the domestic BW and SC2 scene in south korea. If the foreigners like the way SC2 is right now, thats great. The "development" of SC2 isn't the point. The point is the level of popularity that SC2 can pull. SC2 in korea right now is nowhere near BW when BW first took off in terms of the excitement and mainstream viewership. BW was in a frenzy and there was nothing "developed" when they first began broadcasting it. You can cite the amount of cash pools and the number of SC2 teams all you want. None of it matters if SC2 can't pull in viewership from anyone other than casual SC2 players. It's turned into a highly niched gathering of a very small segment of the korean population. This is at the heart of the anger with kespa apparantly deciding to combine BW and SC2 in proleague. If SC2 isn't attracting significant viewership, what makes kespa think that they are going to increase their viewership by adding SC2 into proleague? What if SC2 fans don't care about BW? What if BW fans don't care about SC2? They are probably going to lose viewers.
I believe its desperate call, you need to do SOMETHING with your infrastructure and players, SC2 will not rise anything, it will be barely sustainable with money influx from Blizzard/foreigners. Then why go for it? Well you already have huge ammount of fans, players, infrastructure in KOREA(no, not in west). You need to use it, you cant use it on LoL, FLash is not going to play LoL, BW fans won't watch LoL etc. Its pretty simple, if BW, this BW who still has amazing proleague finals is having trouble SC2 with all their foreign fans will bring nothing to Korea, it will bring nothing to Korea but it will bring enormous profits for Blizzard, If they "kill" BW, there will be no other RTS title played. Period. By the monopoly rule you can give people low product and they will still buy it. Thats why Blizzard will donate all the money they can for it, in the end they will truly monopolize RTS esports for few years, because ironically BW is a rival here.
|
Jangbi vs Fantasy and its huge turnout and viewership was supposed to "save BW," but OSL is still having trouble finding sponsors. SPL Finals may have had a huge audience turnout and perhaps a huge TV viewership, but it may not matter that much.
Indeed, the fanbase is still quite strong and makes it seem that BW isn't dying, but the scene is funded by sponsors, not fans. The sponsors are drying up, so the money is drying up. Match-fixing and the IP rights lawsuit have damaged sponsor confidence in the scene too much. Transitioning to SC2 is obviously a gimmick to possibly attract more future sponsors considering that sponsor confidence in BW is so low. Considering how seemingly unwise this decision is, this just shows how desperate KeSPA is to get sponsors.
This is mostly the failure of the sponsorship-based business model rather than any significant drop in interest.
|
Haha, I love reading this thread, and reading as the BW old guard (which I suppose I am one of now, having lurked TL since 2007 before finally signing up for an account) look at these newbie SC2 players who joined in 2011 or late 2010 and ask what the fuck are they thinking.
I think we need to realize that none of these idiots have truly seen the beauty and stolic history of BW, from the days of Nada (when i first joined), to the frenzy over Savior then Bisu, the excitement that carries on so much in BW. These newbies see BW today, think its always been this difficult for BW, and treat it as a little piece of shit. They have no clue how BW built its empire on absolutely NOTHING, springing up from 500 dollar little store prize games to the empire it is today. Yes, I admit we are waning. But please keep your little crapshits about how SC2 is "amazing" and "better than BW", etc. out of these forums. Unless you joined in 2007 and have watched a ton of BW (as I have, prob ably over 10K hours over 6-8 years), do NOT diss a game you have so little information over. One day perhaps, when SC2 builds what BW is today out of sheer NOTHINGNESS, no Blizzard Backup, no litigations against existing e-sports scences, no foreign support whatsoever, perhaps then, you can go "Ha! SC2 >BW" Until that day, please leave the BW forums alone. If you want to suck up to bilzzard, go create an SC2 forum about how SC2 is making you orgasm, and post there. Not here, where we've watched god knows how much more starcraft than you have, and know so much more of the epic journey BW has taken in Korea.
User was warned for this post
|
On April 08 2012 22:35 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 14:01 Ribbon wrote:On April 08 2012 12:51 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 12:37 Ribbon wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. If BW fans want someone to blame for its death, they have only themselves to blame. On April 08 2012 03:24 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:
I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... Mostly because 30 bucks is "a lot". 10 bucks is also probably "a lot". Koreans are working off a much lower GDP. If you're making like 40K a year you're far far above what most koreans make. So I guess it's a bit more painful since you're a lot more tight on money. This was worse a few years ago when they were just recovering from the recession. They did have official streams. Daum for example had an official stream. They just never charged for it. On April 08 2012 03:02 Hundisilm wrote:
Any chance of the BW scene to pack up and move to the interwebs if OGN drops it? Internet should be a bit more friendly environment for a low cost production of content (can do more with less sponsor money). Sure. Things are kind of taking off in afreeca nowadays, esp with the old progamers streaming there. I imagine that if KeSPA ever does drop BW, there'll be people playing it on the internet, and some of them'll be really good. On April 08 2012 03:29 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:27 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... I think it's still not late if they are really in a pinch they could have open up a donation box with a title saying " You Love Bw ? We also do, but we need your help too, Please Donate to keep us around ^_^ " . If each person donates let say $10 a day and such I bet that fans are willing to go that far to help keep their scene . Although I don't mind paying to watch pro league .. still the donation method is one way bw scene can use it to fund proleague . Do you understand how desperate that sounds? The SECOND you do that, you're guaranteeing that you will never get a sponsor again. You just have to find a way to monetize BW, and KeSPA never really looked into it too much. A lot of teams just think of it as "community service" =/ (in fact this is explicit for STX) This, not the relative popularity of the games, in the reason SC2 looks so attractive. MLG has a PPV model with no sponsorships for it's Arenas, because they can get people to actually pay for it. That's a big deal. That's why I think there's actually a decent chance that this move is to make foreign money flow into BW. It's that a realistic thought? Make money on SC2 and use it to run BW at a loss? On your last point: The only thing KeSPA can offer is the BW players who are supposedly the best. That's their only selling point, or else GSL has them owned. If all the best players switch to SC2, why then sponsor BW? Why sink money into the game? They're businessmen. What if, hypothetically, Flash isn't as good in SC2 as he is in BW? ForGG and Hyun were both well ahead of other SC2 pros in BW skill, and both of them kind of diappointed, especially Hyun, who was top 30 Kespa rank for the same month he played his first game in (which is hardly Bonjwa, but way better than any other SC2 pro had been doing) and has an official GSL record of 0-3. It's true that "OMG Jaedong in SC2 omg" is the big draw, but if he disappoints, they're screwed.(Also, I think underdogs sell a lot better than I AM STAR FOREVER. It's why MarineKing is super-popular in SC2, and why I think Flash is hurting BW. It's very easy to paint TLBS as the Cobra Kai of SC2, which isn't what the sponsors want). Besides, TBLS are way more dominant in hypothetical SC2 than they'd probably be in SC2, even assuming they didn't just kind of suck and surprise everyone. The imagination's always sexier than the reality can ever be. Literally, if Flash switched to SC2, and was anything besides a Bonjwa, it would be a huge disappointment. Simply being a good A-teamer, or even a A-teamer with occasional streaks of scary dominance like MarineKing can have, isn't enough to cash the hype check. But we're not talking about players transitioning to SC2 here. These are fully sponsored professional teams with enough financial backing to pay their top players very good salaries. And training regiment that has been around for years. They also have the best RTS talent in the world. So perhaps Jaedong doesn't become the best zerg in SC2, but likely some BW player will, maybe even someone as ridiculous as Shine or soO.
You are ridiculous. Shine is awesome.
|
On April 09 2012 05:43 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 22:35 baubo wrote:On April 08 2012 14:01 Ribbon wrote:On April 08 2012 12:51 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 12:37 Ribbon wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. If BW fans want someone to blame for its death, they have only themselves to blame. On April 08 2012 03:24 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:
I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... Mostly because 30 bucks is "a lot". 10 bucks is also probably "a lot". Koreans are working off a much lower GDP. If you're making like 40K a year you're far far above what most koreans make. So I guess it's a bit more painful since you're a lot more tight on money. This was worse a few years ago when they were just recovering from the recession. They did have official streams. Daum for example had an official stream. They just never charged for it. On April 08 2012 03:02 Hundisilm wrote:
Any chance of the BW scene to pack up and move to the interwebs if OGN drops it? Internet should be a bit more friendly environment for a low cost production of content (can do more with less sponsor money). Sure. Things are kind of taking off in afreeca nowadays, esp with the old progamers streaming there. I imagine that if KeSPA ever does drop BW, there'll be people playing it on the internet, and some of them'll be really good. On April 08 2012 03:29 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:27 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... I think it's still not late if they are really in a pinch they could have open up a donation box with a title saying " You Love Bw ? We also do, but we need your help too, Please Donate to keep us around ^_^ " . If each person donates let say $10 a day and such I bet that fans are willing to go that far to help keep their scene . Although I don't mind paying to watch pro league .. still the donation method is one way bw scene can use it to fund proleague . Do you understand how desperate that sounds? The SECOND you do that, you're guaranteeing that you will never get a sponsor again. You just have to find a way to monetize BW, and KeSPA never really looked into it too much. A lot of teams just think of it as "community service" =/ (in fact this is explicit for STX) This, not the relative popularity of the games, in the reason SC2 looks so attractive. MLG has a PPV model with no sponsorships for it's Arenas, because they can get people to actually pay for it. That's a big deal. That's why I think there's actually a decent chance that this move is to make foreign money flow into BW. It's that a realistic thought? Make money on SC2 and use it to run BW at a loss? On your last point: The only thing KeSPA can offer is the BW players who are supposedly the best. That's their only selling point, or else GSL has them owned. If all the best players switch to SC2, why then sponsor BW? Why sink money into the game? They're businessmen. What if, hypothetically, Flash isn't as good in SC2 as he is in BW? ForGG and Hyun were both well ahead of other SC2 pros in BW skill, and both of them kind of diappointed, especially Hyun, who was top 30 Kespa rank for the same month he played his first game in (which is hardly Bonjwa, but way better than any other SC2 pro had been doing) and has an official GSL record of 0-3. It's true that "OMG Jaedong in SC2 omg" is the big draw, but if he disappoints, they're screwed.(Also, I think underdogs sell a lot better than I AM STAR FOREVER. It's why MarineKing is super-popular in SC2, and why I think Flash is hurting BW. It's very easy to paint TLBS as the Cobra Kai of SC2, which isn't what the sponsors want). Besides, TBLS are way more dominant in hypothetical SC2 than they'd probably be in SC2, even assuming they didn't just kind of suck and surprise everyone. The imagination's always sexier than the reality can ever be. Literally, if Flash switched to SC2, and was anything besides a Bonjwa, it would be a huge disappointment. Simply being a good A-teamer, or even a A-teamer with occasional streaks of scary dominance like MarineKing can have, isn't enough to cash the hype check. But we're not talking about players transitioning to SC2 here. These are fully sponsored professional teams with enough financial backing to pay their top players very good salaries. And training regiment that has been around for years. They also have the best RTS talent in the world. So perhaps Jaedong doesn't become the best zerg in SC2, but likely some BW player will, maybe even someone as ridiculous as Shine or soO. You are ridiculous. Shine is awesome.
Well played there but that really hurts man.
|
|
|
What's Kespa doing? Seriously. I'm with Antoine on this. You can't have your BW and eat it too.
|
On April 09 2012 05:34 eviltomahawk wrote:
The sponsors are drying up, so the money is drying up. Match-fixing and the IP rights lawsuit have damaged sponsor confidence in the scene too much. Transitioning to SC2 is obviously a gimmick to possibly attract more future sponsors considering that sponsor confidence in BW is so low. Considering how seemingly unwise this decision is, this just shows how desperate KeSPA is to get sponsors.
This is mostly the failure of the sponsorship-based business model rather than any significant drop in interest.
Source? Oh thats right you don't have one because that information isn't publicly available to anyone except korean executives.
On the other hand we know for a fact that there was is both a SPL and OSL this year and so since both of those cost money we must conclude that there is in fact money.
|
We have far enough SC2 leagues and watching that stuff is not interesting enough for me to watch.
Kespa should do "all or nothing" - complete switch to SC2 or stay at BW - this hybrid is ridiculus and 50 % boring.
Also, if someone want to build a reputable SC2 league, do it - but you don't need to kill BW Proleague for it.
I guess salaries for BW elite players are currently still significantly higher than for SC2 Players, and thats for a reason (more korean TV viewers/attention).
|
Australia1191 Posts
On April 09 2012 05:36 [Azn]Nada wrote:
Haha, I love reading this thread, and reading as the BW old guard (which I suppose I am one of now, having lurked TL since 2007 before finally signing up for an account) look at these newbie SC2 players who joined in 2011 or late 2010 and ask what the fuck are they thinking.
I think we need to realize that none of these idiots have truly seen the beauty and stolic history of BW, from the days of Nada (when i first joined), to the frenzy over Savior then Bisu, the excitement that carries on so much in BW. These newbies see BW today, think its always been this difficult for BW, and treat it as a little piece of shit. They have no clue how BW built its empire on absolutely NOTHING, springing up from 500 dollar little store prize games to the empire it is today. Yes, I admit we are waning. But please keep your little crapshits about how SC2 is "amazing" and "better than BW", etc. out of these forums. Unless you joined in 2007 and have watched a ton of BW (as I have, prob ably over 10K hours over 6-8 years), do NOT diss a game you have so little information over. One day perhaps, when SC2 builds what BW is today out of sheer NOTHINGNESS, no Blizzard Backup, no litigations against existing e-sports scences, no foreign support whatsoever, perhaps then, you can go "Ha! SC2 >BW" Until that day, please leave the BW forums alone. If you want to suck up to bilzzard, go create an SC2 forum about how SC2 is making you orgasm, and post there. Not here, where we've watched god knows how much more starcraft than you have, and know so much more of the epic journey BW has taken in Korea.
one quick look threw your post history, take your own advice and stay out of Sc2 Forums...
|
Again, no way in heck this is happening.
Humanity has no soul if they do so after yesterday's finals.
|
On April 08 2012 13:06 Lawliet wrote:
There is a international scene for SC2 and none for BW. It's really as simple as that.
Globalization is the future. BW has stagnated and the fanbase/money is drying out.
Don't get me wrong. BW is my first love and she will never be forgotten. But it's time to move on guys. SC2 might seem like feeble substitute but in good time balance will come. There's still two expansions and a buttload of patches in the works.
Honestly. Wouldn't you rather see the Jaedong, Bish or Flash slaying nerds all over the world with personal sponsorship or spearheading their own teams in SC2 rather than have them retire and go do their military service?
What the fuck? No. Watching them play SC2 would break my heart.
Also, people need to stop using the phrase "support e-sports and expand SC2" as if it's an argument. Fuck e-sports. We want to watch people play games, and by games, I mean good games that we've loved for a decade.
People have different opinions, and I'm all fine with people saying that they can enjoy SC2. But seriously, stop coming in here and saying "but if they switch, SC2 will grow." That's inciting dumb flamebait, you know it, and a lot of people here don't even bother with SC2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
