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On April 08 2012 04:29 jellyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" this, basically. it's like waiting for your grandfather who you barely knew to die so that you can get his inheritance. from the perspective of a bw fan, hearing people wish so enthusiastically for our scene to die for your benefit is like having a mob of vultures hovering around every bw/sc2 thread crying "ESPORTS! ESPORTS!" also, i always found it amusing that the sc2 scene can simultaneously drool at what bw progamers might do to sc2, and then go and spit at the elephant in the room thread.
You mean the "the elephant in the room" article that puts BW players on such a high pedestal as to conclude that competition in SC2 is a farce without their participation? You mean glorified players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork who are constantly hailed by BW fans as players who would dominate SC2 at their will?
You're really surprised that SC2 players would be eager to have those players compete in SC2 so they can gauge the level of competition and proof that condescending article wrong? And you're really so angry as to demonise these people's intentions as "wanting to kill BW" when most just want a legitimate SC2 league that doesn't have to stand in the shadows of some mythical players from another RTS? Are they really that evil that if given the choice to have TaekBangLeesSang compete in SC2 without "killing" BW they would choose to destroy BW anyways? Just for the funs of it?
Sad truth is that most SC2 fans don't even know or care about BW, let alone have any opinion on it or actively lobbying to destroy it.
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On April 08 2012 04:48 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:29 jellyfish wrote:On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" this, basically. it's like waiting for your grandfather who you barely knew to die so that you can get his inheritance. from the perspective of a bw fan, hearing people wish so enthusiastically for our scene to die for your benefit is like having a mob of vultures hovering around every bw/sc2 thread crying "ESPORTS! ESPORTS!" also, i always found it amusing that the sc2 scene can simultaneously drool at what bw progamers might do to sc2, and then go and spit at the elephant in the room thread. You mean the "the elephant in the room" article that puts BW players on such a high pedestal as to conclude that competition in SC2 is a farce without their participation? You mean glorified players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork who are constantly hailed by BW fans as players who would dominate SC2 at their will? You're really surprised that SC2 players would be eager to have those players compete in SC2 so they can gauge the standards of competition and proof that condescending article wrong? And you're really so angry as to demonise these people's intentions as "wanting to kill BW" when most just want a legitimate SC2 league that doesn't have to stand in the shadows of mythical players? Are they really that evil that if given the choice to have TaekBangLeesSang compete in SC2 without "killing" BW they would choose to destroy BW anyways? Just for the funs of it? Sad truth is that most SC2 fans don't even know or care about BW, let alone have any opinion on it or actively lobbying to destroy it.
i call bullshit on your claim that most sc2 fans dont know about bw, especially within tl.
generally speaking, the motivation behind "can't wait til TBLS plays sc2" has been more excitement at seeing how great these bw players will do in sc2, and not, as you say, a desire to test the legitimacy of the elephant thread. whether that's only because of censorship (self- and mod-) is another matter. also, the sad truth in the bw forums is no one really cares how TBLS, Leta, Fantasy, etc would do in sc2, let alone whether they would dominate it....unless they're provoked. we just want to watch bw without the threat of sc2 absorbing our scene and infrastructure.
and i guess i should've made the disclaimer that i agree with the majority that the elephant in the room article is outdated - its claims may or may not have been valid when first written, but it's certainly not valid now. i believe, though, in the spirit of the article: that the sc2 scene is still inferior to bw; your own statements are pretty telling. im happy letting sc2 develop into a great, competitive, stable scene. but why can't it do that without taking away from bw? wishing bw players come over to benefit sc2 is indirectly wishing for bw's decline. just because it isn't malicious doesn't mean it won't have malicious effects.
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On April 08 2012 05:23 jellyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:48 Saechiis wrote:On April 08 2012 04:29 jellyfish wrote:On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" this, basically. it's like waiting for your grandfather who you barely knew to die so that you can get his inheritance. from the perspective of a bw fan, hearing people wish so enthusiastically for our scene to die for your benefit is like having a mob of vultures hovering around every bw/sc2 thread crying "ESPORTS! ESPORTS!" also, i always found it amusing that the sc2 scene can simultaneously drool at what bw progamers might do to sc2, and then go and spit at the elephant in the room thread. You mean the "the elephant in the room" article that puts BW players on such a high pedestal as to conclude that competition in SC2 is a farce without their participation? You mean glorified players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork who are constantly hailed by BW fans as players who would dominate SC2 at their will? You're really surprised that SC2 players would be eager to have those players compete in SC2 so they can gauge the standards of competition and proof that condescending article wrong? And you're really so angry as to demonise these people's intentions as "wanting to kill BW" when most just want a legitimate SC2 league that doesn't have to stand in the shadows of mythical players? Are they really that evil that if given the choice to have TaekBangLeesSang compete in SC2 without "killing" BW they would choose to destroy BW anyways? Just for the funs of it? Sad truth is that most SC2 fans don't even know or care about BW, let alone have any opinion on it or actively lobbying to destroy it. i call bullshit on your claim that most sc2 fans dont know about bw, especially within tl. generally speaking, the motivation behind "can't wait til TBLS plays sc2" has been more excitement at seeing how great these bw players will do in sc2, and not, as you say, a desire to test the legitimacy of the elephant thread. whether that's only because of censorship (self- and mod-) is another matter. also, the sad truth in the bw forums is no one really cares how TBLS, Leta, Fantasy, etc would do in sc2, let alone whether they would dominate it....unless they're provoked. we just want to watch bw without the threat of sc2 absorbing our scene and infrastructure. and i guess i should've made the disclaimer that i agree with the majority that the elephant in the room article is outdated - its claims may or may not have been valid when first written, but it's certainly not valid now. i believe, though, in the spirit of the article: that the sc2 scene is still inferior to bw; your own statements are pretty telling. im happy letting sc2 develop into a great, competitive, stable scene. but why can't it do that without taking away from bw? wishing bw players come over to benefit sc2 is indirectly wishing for bw's decline. just because it isn't malicious doesn't mean it won't have malicious effects.
That holds true if you're of the opinion that BW's decline stems from SC2, but SC2 really isn't that popular in Korea, LoL is. The fact that BW no longer has the ability to sustain itself is causing teams, organisations and players to find another game to make into a viable ESPORTS league. The fact that SC2 is an obvious choice there doesn't mean it is responsible for said decline. Rather than SC2 forcibly taking over, it's an alternative to the BW teams' players and coaches disappearing with their league into forced retirement, like what happened to Anytime, Hiya etc.
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On April 08 2012 06:28 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 05:23 jellyfish wrote:On April 08 2012 04:48 Saechiis wrote:On April 08 2012 04:29 jellyfish wrote:On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" this, basically. it's like waiting for your grandfather who you barely knew to die so that you can get his inheritance. from the perspective of a bw fan, hearing people wish so enthusiastically for our scene to die for your benefit is like having a mob of vultures hovering around every bw/sc2 thread crying "ESPORTS! ESPORTS!" also, i always found it amusing that the sc2 scene can simultaneously drool at what bw progamers might do to sc2, and then go and spit at the elephant in the room thread. You mean the "the elephant in the room" article that puts BW players on such a high pedestal as to conclude that competition in SC2 is a farce without their participation? You mean glorified players like Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork who are constantly hailed by BW fans as players who would dominate SC2 at their will? You're really surprised that SC2 players would be eager to have those players compete in SC2 so they can gauge the standards of competition and proof that condescending article wrong? And you're really so angry as to demonise these people's intentions as "wanting to kill BW" when most just want a legitimate SC2 league that doesn't have to stand in the shadows of mythical players? Are they really that evil that if given the choice to have TaekBangLeesSang compete in SC2 without "killing" BW they would choose to destroy BW anyways? Just for the funs of it? Sad truth is that most SC2 fans don't even know or care about BW, let alone have any opinion on it or actively lobbying to destroy it. i call bullshit on your claim that most sc2 fans dont know about bw, especially within tl. generally speaking, the motivation behind "can't wait til TBLS plays sc2" has been more excitement at seeing how great these bw players will do in sc2, and not, as you say, a desire to test the legitimacy of the elephant thread. whether that's only because of censorship (self- and mod-) is another matter. also, the sad truth in the bw forums is no one really cares how TBLS, Leta, Fantasy, etc would do in sc2, let alone whether they would dominate it....unless they're provoked. we just want to watch bw without the threat of sc2 absorbing our scene and infrastructure. and i guess i should've made the disclaimer that i agree with the majority that the elephant in the room article is outdated - its claims may or may not have been valid when first written, but it's certainly not valid now. i believe, though, in the spirit of the article: that the sc2 scene is still inferior to bw; your own statements are pretty telling. im happy letting sc2 develop into a great, competitive, stable scene. but why can't it do that without taking away from bw? wishing bw players come over to benefit sc2 is indirectly wishing for bw's decline. just because it isn't malicious doesn't mean it won't have malicious effects. That holds true if you're of the opinion that BW's decline stems from SC2, but SC2 really isn't that popular in Korea, LoL is. The fact that BW no longer has the ability to sustain itself is causing teams, organisations and players to find another game to make into a viable ESPORTS league. The fact that SC2 is an obvious choice there doesn't mean it is responsible for said decline. Rather than SC2 forcibly taking over, it's an alternative to the BW teams' players and coaches disappearing with their league into forced retirement, like what happened to Anytime, Hiya etc.
I dont understand your logic, how could a not popular game in korea SC2 be the alternative to the BW teams? , BW is far more popular, more exciting game, there are better players in it because it is the top notch RTS, what is the willing of Kespa with this move?, I only can think in two possible scenarios, Blizzard putting a big amount of money and the desire of milking foreign pockets.
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What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league 
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 08 2012 07:55 Manimal_pro wrote:What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league
everytime i played SC2 for some time i was always in the highest league. so ur point?.
u make units and u are in master. easy as taht.
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On April 08 2012 07:55 Manimal_pro wrote:What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league
and you post here why? everyone who has played bw knows that sc2 is easy mode, its not even an argument
User was warned for this post
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On April 08 2012 08:29 KenNage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 07:55 Manimal_pro wrote:What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league and you post here why? everyone who has played bw knows that sc2 is easy mode, its not even an argument
It's not necessarily a bad thing. Playing BW actually makes me feel like I'm doing chores. No one wants to move each worker to mine after they're built.
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On April 08 2012 07:55 Manimal_pro wrote:What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league
Dude, this message got me all riled up and I was preparing to educate newbies on some fundamentals on the RTS genre. Then I thought to myself to spend my time on dealing with more valuable things than internet jackasses. I am going to leave here that as long as you are able to put all of your fighting force production facilities under the hotkey 5, remember to go back there and press the necessary key to make w/e unit you desire in order to have an ongoing mineral spending, you will definitely and surely make it to at least Diamond league. The difference between the D league and higher up is that you actually have to start checking back and fourth between TWO screens at a time. One being your rally point, the other being your troop. There you have it! The requirement of becoming a master!
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On April 08 2012 08:47 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 07:55 Manimal_pro wrote:What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league Dude, this message got me all riled up and I was preparing to educate newbies on some fundamentals on the RTS genre. Then I thought to myself to spend my time on dealing with more valuable things than internet jackasses. I am going to leave here that as long as you are able to put all of your fighting force production facilities under the hotkey 5, remember to go back there and press the necessary key to make w/e unit you desire in order to have an ongoing mineral spending, you will definitely and surely make it to at least Diamond league. The difference between the D league and higher up is that you actually have to start checking back and fourth between TWO screens at a time. One being your rally point, the other being your troop. There you have it! The requirement of becoming a master!
But that has nothing to do with the game, you are talking about skill segregating system. Anyone knows low masters is bullshit. Just because there are tons of people worse than you, it doesnt mean you are good
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On April 08 2012 09:06 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 08:47 Xiphos wrote:On April 08 2012 07:55 Manimal_pro wrote:What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league Dude, this message got me all riled up and I was preparing to educate newbies on some fundamentals on the RTS genre. Then I thought to myself to spend my time on dealing with more valuable things than internet jackasses. I am going to leave here that as long as you are able to put all of your fighting force production facilities under the hotkey 5, remember to go back there and press the necessary key to make w/e unit you desire in order to have an ongoing mineral spending, you will definitely and surely make it to at least Diamond league. The difference between the D league and higher up is that you actually have to start checking back and fourth between TWO screens at a time. One being your rally point, the other being your troop. There you have it! The requirement of becoming a master! But that has nothing to do with the game, you are talking about skill segregating system. Anyone knows low masters is bullshit. Just because there are tons of people worse than you, it doesnt mean you are good
Still give me the satisfaction that I am able to easily get ranked higher than my surrounding peers without breaking much sweat while they complain about the difficulty level of the game. Seriously, I can't believe how many of my friends, who have played way more SC2 than me is still stuck within laughable rank. Its makes me sorrowful.
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On April 08 2012 04:19 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" Did you hear anyone cry when Fruitdealer stopped playing SC2 to become a LoL coach? Most BW fans don't even care about the players, it's all about the fact that they play BW. If they don't play BW, fuck them, fuck ForGG, fuck MVP, fuck Zergbong, fuck Clare, fuck Iron, fuck Boxer, fuck Nada, fuck July, fuck B-teamers that started out in BW and are now flourishing in SC2. It doesn't matter that they play SC2 our of their free will because that makes them happy or earns them more money, or more international oppurtunities as a progamer. NO! Anyone that doesn't play BW and chooses to play another game instead is conflicting with my views on life and therefore evil and intent on destroying my beliefs!
What the fuck is wrong with you?
Nobody has a problem with these players switching to SC2. They switched because they need to make money and are no longer able to compete in BW. It is a 100% correct and logical decision. It's what I would have done in their place and I bear them no ill will. What actually gets people pissed is the fact that BW is being replaced by an inferior game.
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On April 08 2012 11:00 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:19 Saechiis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" Did you hear anyone cry when Fruitdealer stopped playing SC2 to become a LoL coach? Most BW fans don't even care about the players, it's all about the fact that they play BW. If they don't play BW, fuck them, fuck ForGG, fuck MVP, fuck Zergbong, fuck Clare, fuck Iron, fuck Boxer, fuck Nada, fuck July, fuck B-teamers that started out in BW and are now flourishing in SC2. It doesn't matter that they play SC2 our of their free will because that makes them happy or earns them more money, or more international oppurtunities as a progamer. NO! Anyone that doesn't play BW and chooses to play another game instead is conflicting with my views on life and therefore evil and intent on destroying my beliefs! What the fuck is wrong with you? Nobody has a problem with these players switching to SC2. They switched because they need to make money and are no longer able to compete in BW. It is a 100% correct and logical decision. It's what I would have done in their place and I bear them no ill will. What actually gets people pissed is the fact that BW is being replaced by an inferior game.
Exactly. Everybody seems to have the wrong idea about the BW community.
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On April 08 2012 11:00 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:19 Saechiis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" Did you hear anyone cry when Fruitdealer stopped playing SC2 to become a LoL coach? Most BW fans don't even care about the players, it's all about the fact that they play BW. If they don't play BW, fuck them, fuck ForGG, fuck MVP, fuck Zergbong, fuck Clare, fuck Iron, fuck Boxer, fuck Nada, fuck July, fuck B-teamers that started out in BW and are now flourishing in SC2. It doesn't matter that they play SC2 our of their free will because that makes them happy or earns them more money, or more international oppurtunities as a progamer. NO! Anyone that doesn't play BW and chooses to play another game instead is conflicting with my views on life and therefore evil and intent on destroying my beliefs! What the fuck is wrong with you? Nobody has a problem with these players switching to SC2. They switched because they need to make money and are no longer able to compete in BW. It is a 100% correct and logical decision. It's what I would have done in their place and I bear them no ill will. What actually gets people pissed is the fact that BW is being replaced by an inferior game.
i have nothing to add to this, just saying pay attention to what this guy just said..
oh and actually also how blizz seems to be trying to bury BW
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On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go.
If BW fans want someone to blame for its death, they have only themselves to blame.
On April 08 2012 03:24 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:
I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... Mostly because 30 bucks is "a lot". 10 bucks is also probably "a lot". Koreans are working off a much lower GDP. If you're making like 40K a year you're far far above what most koreans make. So I guess it's a bit more painful since you're a lot more tight on money. This was worse a few years ago when they were just recovering from the recession. They did have official streams. Daum for example had an official stream. They just never charged for it. Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:02 Hundisilm wrote:
Any chance of the BW scene to pack up and move to the interwebs if OGN drops it? Internet should be a bit more friendly environment for a low cost production of content (can do more with less sponsor money). Sure. Things are kind of taking off in afreeca nowadays, esp with the old progamers streaming there.
I imagine that if KeSPA ever does drop BW, there'll be people playing it on the internet, and some of them'll be really good.
On April 08 2012 03:29 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:27 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... I think it's still not late if they are really in a pinch they could have open up a donation box with a title saying " You Love Bw ? We also do, but we need your help too, Please Donate to keep us around ^_^ " . If each person donates let say $10 a day and such I bet that fans are willing to go that far to help keep their scene . Although I don't mind paying to watch pro league .. still the donation method is one way bw scene can use it to fund proleague . Do you understand how desperate that sounds? The SECOND you do that, you're guaranteeing that you will never get a sponsor again. You just have to find a way to monetize BW, and KeSPA never really looked into it too much. A lot of teams just think of it as "community service" =/ (in fact this is explicit for STX)
This, not the relative popularity of the games, in the reason SC2 looks so attractive. MLG has a PPV model with no sponsorships for it's Arenas, because they can get people to actually pay for it. That's a big deal. That's why I think there's actually a decent chance that this move is to make foreign money flow into BW. It's that a realistic thought? Make money on SC2 and use it to run BW at a loss?
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On April 08 2012 12:37 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. If BW fans want someone to blame for its death, they have only themselves to blame. Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:24 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:
I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... Mostly because 30 bucks is "a lot". 10 bucks is also probably "a lot". Koreans are working off a much lower GDP. If you're making like 40K a year you're far far above what most koreans make. So I guess it's a bit more painful since you're a lot more tight on money. This was worse a few years ago when they were just recovering from the recession. They did have official streams. Daum for example had an official stream. They just never charged for it. On April 08 2012 03:02 Hundisilm wrote:
Any chance of the BW scene to pack up and move to the interwebs if OGN drops it? Internet should be a bit more friendly environment for a low cost production of content (can do more with less sponsor money). Sure. Things are kind of taking off in afreeca nowadays, esp with the old progamers streaming there. I imagine that if KeSPA ever does drop BW, there'll be people playing it on the internet, and some of them'll be really good. Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:29 Milkis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:27 Sawamura wrote:On April 08 2012 03:00 Xiphos wrote:On April 08 2012 02:49 Milkis wrote:
Also, one more thing I'd like to add.
The reason why the BW scene is collapsing is 100% because it's a sponsor based model. There are still a TON of BW fans. Imagine if Koreans paid for subscriptions, paid actual money to go to finals, etc. But the fans balked at this very idea immediately, which basically forced BW into the model it is today... very very sponsor based.
When you're no longer answering to the fans but your sponsors, you get very weird things going on. I mean, every finals is still a full house imagine if 5000 people show up and you charge 10 bucks each -- that's 50K, that's 1/10th of what it costs OSL to sponsor. Imagine if you did events for semi finals too. etc etc. the cost of sponsorships would be much less.
Imagine if PL finals charged 10 bucks. 30K people show up, that's 300K. That's 1/10th of what it costs to sponsor a Proleague (approximinately). Things like that. But Koreans really drove away from this model, which is a very scary thought in the end.
These are numbers that they can get CURRENTLY. But because Koreans fans now have the idea they will never pay for esports... well. There you go. I am more than glad to pay 10 bucks for BW. Hell I am willing to put as much as 30 bucks to watch one full season of individual league or 20 bucks for PL. By the way I don`t even live in SK, all I want is some official stream and I`ll be already content. Why did the Koreans take this game for granted... I think it's still not late if they are really in a pinch they could have open up a donation box with a title saying " You Love Bw ? We also do, but we need your help too, Please Donate to keep us around ^_^ " . If each person donates let say $10 a day and such I bet that fans are willing to go that far to help keep their scene . Although I don't mind paying to watch pro league .. still the donation method is one way bw scene can use it to fund proleague . Do you understand how desperate that sounds? The SECOND you do that, you're guaranteeing that you will never get a sponsor again. You just have to find a way to monetize BW, and KeSPA never really looked into it too much. A lot of teams just think of it as "community service" =/ (in fact this is explicit for STX) This, not the relative popularity of the games, in the reason SC2 looks so attractive. MLG has a PPV model with no sponsorships for it's Arenas, because they can get people to actually pay for it. That's a big deal. That's why I think there's actually a decent chance that this move is to make foreign money flow into BW. It's that a realistic thought? Make money on SC2 and use it to run BW at a loss?
On your last point:
The only thing KeSPA can offer is the BW players who are supposedly the best. That's their only selling point, or else GSL has them owned. If all the best players switch to SC2, why then sponsor BW? Why sink money into the game? They're businessmen.
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On April 08 2012 11:00 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 04:19 Saechiis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:51 Bwenjarin Raffrack wrote:On April 08 2012 03:10 Lunareste wrote:On April 08 2012 01:44 jpak wrote:Is Brawl trying to leech from the Melee playerbase? Are there Brawl players coming to the Melee forums and saying "I hope player x is coming to Brawl"? Are there Brawl players saying that Melee should die because Brawl is the new thing? To you second point, even many SC2 players see that SC2 is boring or stale at the moment. Look at the reaction the FRB thread caused. Look how people, and most of them SC2 players are complaining over the UI two years in. We BW players know better which potential SC2 could have had, and how Blizz fucked up. I don't understand why it bothers you so much that SC2 fans want to see Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Fantasy, etc. playing SC2. We've all seen how great these players are or at least heard about how good they are. "I can't wait until MKP, DRG, and Nestea switch to LoL. Just imagine all the crazy stuff they could do, microing their heroes with their 300 APM. I'm sure the game would look completely different. Sure, the game may not be all that great to watch now, but that's just because it's young and we don't have all of your gosu players. So if we kill SC2 now, cannibalize the corpse of its scene by taking all of its great players, teams, and sponsors, LoL may even some day be almost as fun to watch, possibly. Who cares that they're artisans of some other game that I've never watched or cared about and gets much less viewership anyway, but I heard some guy talk about how good they were this one time so I want to see how good they are in my game. Besides, everyone knows the transition is inevitable. For ESPORTS!" Did you hear anyone cry when Fruitdealer stopped playing SC2 to become a LoL coach? Most BW fans don't even care about the players, it's all about the fact that they play BW. If they don't play BW, fuck them, fuck ForGG, fuck MVP, fuck Zergbong, fuck Clare, fuck Iron, fuck Boxer, fuck Nada, fuck July, fuck B-teamers that started out in BW and are now flourishing in SC2. It doesn't matter that they play SC2 our of their free will because that makes them happy or earns them more money, or more international oppurtunities as a progamer. NO! Anyone that doesn't play BW and chooses to play another game instead is conflicting with my views on life and therefore evil and intent on destroying my beliefs! What the fuck is wrong with you? Nobody has a problem with these players switching to SC2. They switched because they need to make money and are no longer able to compete in BW. It is a 100% correct and logical decision. It's what I would have done in their place and I bear them no ill will. What actually gets people pissed is the fact that BW is being replaced by an inferior game.
Exactly. Plain and simple like that.
SC2 fan, read this: before many of you even knew what SC2 standed for, we already were looking forward to it, thinking that SC2 would be such an awesome game and worthy successor to BW. We all wanted so bad SC2. Then we got it. We played it. And played it again and again. But in the end, all hype became frustration, because the game felt so much inferior to BW. Then we stopped playing it and all was fine, SC2 had its league and BW had its own.
But now, replacing what is perfect for something so much inferior is a huge slap in the face. Fuck it.
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There is a international scene for SC2 and none for BW. It's really as simple as that.
Globalization is the future. BW has stagnated and the fanbase/money is drying out.
Don't get me wrong. BW is my first love and she will never be forgotten. But it's time to move on guys. SC2 might seem like feeble substitute but in good time balance will come. There's still two expansions and a buttload of patches in the works.
Honestly. Wouldn't you rather see the Jaedong, Bish or Flash slaying nerds all over the world with personal sponsorship or spearheading their own teams in SC2 rather than have them retire and go do their military service?
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On April 08 2012 08:29 KenNage wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 07:55 Manimal_pro wrote:What i find amusing about the BW hardcore fans complaining about SC2 being to easy is the fact that they aren't ever masters league and you post here why? everyone who has played bw knows that sc2 is easy mode, its not even an argument User was warned for this post
I used to be masters in sc2 1month playing, never been more than D+ in bw.
If the money is on Sc2 we are fucked, BW scene had to die someday, we just hoped it would be to a better game.
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Like it's been said before: this basically forces the so-so A-teamers to switch to SC2 indefinitely while the stars and S-class players stay on BW. This also confuses me, because we have an OSL starting here. An OSL that is Brood War only. You know a lot of those players might end up having to play SC2 in proleague... How can they succeed in OSL if they're practicing a different game? It's like some kind of master plan to make the OSL incredibly top-heavy or something.
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