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Racial balance/imbalance is dependent on the maps. Protoss-favoring maps have always existed and will always exist.
My impression, however, is that KESPA cycles out Protoss-favoring maps (like Central Plains) more readily than Terran or Zerg-favored maps. Consequently, Protoss is somewhat disadvantaged in professional play, and appears 'streaky'. (No, it's just that all the non-streaky players picked other races, lolz.)
Stork and Bisu look better than Jaedong and Flash when the map pool is slanted to Protoss.
On June 12 2011 04:27 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 01:40 dukethegold wrote:
But if the Valkyrie and Queen can fulfill their theorycraft roles as BW metagame becomes more sophisticated and the players becomes more skilled This is true in part, but they're not totally comparable. Both units have been used since many years ago. The scout too, as you note. Sometimes you could open scout instead of corsair if you were doing 1 base stargate vs Z.
Indeed; a Corsair's harassment can be blocked by a single spore to defend your overlords, whereas the scout forces in-base hydralisks until the Zerg has a Spire, because it can also attack ground. If I get back into playing BW, I'm going to try opening 1 base Stargate Corsair --> Scout, and cancel the Scout if my Corsair sees a hydra den. (The higher cost for the Scout, and extra 40 seconds of build time + longer flight time, are really inconvenient.)
However, 1 base Protoss openings are generally seen as underpowered for anything but a surprise play on modern macro maps, because they rely on ground units for defense, which can't apply proper pressure on maps with very long rush distances. Certainly 1 base Protoss PvZ is weak if Zerg does a more economic build than No-Gas Overpool and knows how to respond well.
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Japan11285 Posts
The fact with using scouts is that they are too costly for their effectiveness. The 275 mins and 125 gas could be used somewhere else and get better results. We should ask blizz to patch the game and make scouts viable  .
If they will really patch it, (one can dream) IMO they should make the AtG more powerful and the AtA less powerful so as not to overlap with the sair and speed upg. researched already.
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On June 12 2011 15:54 Severedevil wrote:
Racial balance/imbalance is dependent on the maps. Protoss-favoring maps have always existed and will always exist.
Map considerations are something to think about. Only 5 maps in the history of BW with statistically acceptable deviations had balanced matchups across the board. (Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Fighting Spirit, Guillotine, Arcadia 2)
Yet it is unfair to suggest that the issues is primarily map dependent. Altering terrain doesn't take away from the aspects that make each race unique and it is these unique qualities that allow them to maximize map utilization to the detriment of the other races.
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Man, remember how they lowered scouts air to ground dps in patch 1.04? That shit was OP. ... completely op right? ...right?
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On June 12 2011 16:24 sylverfyre wrote:
Man, remember how they lowered scouts air to ground dps in patch 1.04? That shit was OP. ... completely op right? ...right?
Heard about that one, but what triggered that patch?
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10387 Posts
On June 12 2011 15:54 Severedevil wrote:
Indeed; a Corsair's harassment can be blocked by a single spore to defend your overlords, whereas the scout forces in-base hydralisks until the Zerg has a Spire, because it can also attack ground. If I get back into playing BW, I'm going to try opening 1 base Stargate Corsair --> Scout, and cancel the Scout if my Corsair sees a hydra den. (The higher cost for the Scout, and extra 40 seconds of build time + longer flight time, are really inconvenient.)
However, 1 base Protoss openings are generally seen as underpowered for anything but a surprise play on modern macro maps, because they rely on ground units for defense, which can't apply proper pressure on maps with very long rush distances. Certainly 1 base Protoss PvZ is weak if Zerg does a more economic build than No-Gas Overpool and knows how to respond well.
Think there was a game where some Protoss tried a 1-base Scout-DT build against JD in WCG not sure. Theorycraft-wise, Scout will kill the Overlord faster than a Corsair will, which could lead to more potential DT dmg. It'd be terribly difficult to execute though I imagine, not to mention all the gas needed.. Building a Scout would also be pretty useful in the event of a ling all-in (if you already have Stargate that is..)
Much vs Bisu demonstrates a situation where Scouts would be a superior choice vs Carriers, rather than mass goons or DA/MC, since the map structure of Plasma makes it difficult for Dragoons to fight Carriers, and the time needed to have DA/MC ready would take a bit long. Pretty much the only situation you'd want to go Scouts in a PvP though.
Think there was that game between Kal and ForGG where Scouts saved Kal (not sure of the details). Bisu used Scouts in several PvTs, like his infamous game vs Hwasin and I think a game vs Nada on Monty Hall.
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On June 12 2011 10:57 dukethegold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 09:54 d_so wrote:
u know how when a terran is way ahead in a tvt he builds 20 starports and masses wraiths? I want to see that in pvz In that case, mass corsair would still be better with disruption web. And as somebody else pointed out, cost for cost templar with storm can do that and better. I personally think if Scout starts with 10 speed (same as corsair), it will have greater usage.
nah dude. i know it sounds retarded but massed up scouts with muta micro can beat everything zerg has, land or air. U micro the scouts and take out hydras one by one, then one shot overlords, attack ground against scourge. the only thing that can beat 24 scouts with muta micro is devourers + mutas or perhaps some sort of ensnare play.
Corsairs of course can't hit ground. That measly 7 ish damage or so starts really adding up when u have enough of them, plus it's common knowledge that scouts never die.
The reason I'm for this is cuz I saw it on an MBC Game show, the one where they have all those weird replays. Even if it was a low level game (though the Toss had reallllly nice micro), I think it is feasible and is only limited by resources. Given enough resources and pro level micro, I think it can be an effective strat.
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On June 12 2011 18:55 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 10:57 dukethegold wrote:On June 12 2011 09:54 d_so wrote:
u know how when a terran is way ahead in a tvt he builds 20 starports and masses wraiths? I want to see that in pvz In that case, mass corsair would still be better with disruption web. And as somebody else pointed out, cost for cost templar with storm can do that and better. I personally think if Scout starts with 10 speed (same as corsair), it will have greater usage. nah dude. i know it sounds retarded but massed up scouts with muta micro can beat everything zerg has, land or air. U micro the scouts and take out hydras one by one, then one shot overlords, attack ground against scourge. the only thing that can beat 24 scouts with muta micro is devourers + mutas or perhaps some sort of ensnare play. Corsairs of course can't hit ground. That measly 7 ish damage or so starts really adding up when u have enough of them, plus it's common knowledge that scouts never die. The reason I'm for this is cuz I saw it on an MBC Game show, the one where they have all those weird replays. Even if it was a low level game (though the Toss had reallllly nice micro), I think it is feasible and is only limited by resources. Given enough resources and pro level micro, I think it can be an effective strat.
So it all comes down to the cost. The cost of the Scout is indeed insane, not to mention the 3 supplies. It was probably nerfed in the past due to its dominance during an era when island maps were popular.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Stacked air is just asking to get plagued though.
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On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote:
Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race?
Hiya vs Free on Triathlon. Hiya went 3 port wraith into nukes, Free MC'd an scv in return and tries to build a CC. was so good, that game
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On June 12 2011 14:59 mutantmagnet wrote:
...Sadly the majority of Protoss wins came before patch 1.08 which is a very troubling fact.
This fact is compounded by Protoss losing to Terrans more so than they were expected to be. The power gap between T and P is the smallest of the three when looking at all progamers but the gap exists.
This has the consequence of saying on one hand the game offers all the races the tools needed to win because the races can win with unfavorable odds. On the other hand it also says that Protoss is underperforming. Protss has only become a champion once post patch 1.08 in their most unfavorable match up. Protoss have also fallen below expectations of the progamer group performance in proving they are favored to win against Terran.
The 1.08 change I think was most critical to lowering P success was the heavy storm nerf. (I played P at the time and I'm still a little bitter about it.) It's now 112 damage where before it was... I want to say twice that, but that might be exaggerating. Obviously changing it back would be a huge change (one-shot tanks, lurkers, etc.) and would mess up the balance for a little bit, but I don't know what it would do in the long term.
Also, looking at the liquipedia page is interesting: Terran got buffed, Protoss got nerfed, and Zerg... probably got nerfed overall but not by much.
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I think scouts have been tried and tested. Probably not worth that kind of investment since they will require a mass to be useful. Getting to that kind of mass requires much resources and leaves you open to attack very easily.
Moreover, they are easily countered.
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On June 12 2011 23:22 saritenite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote:
Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race? Hiya vs Free on Triathlon. Hiya went 3 port wraith into nukes, Free MC'd an scv in return and tries to build a CC. was so good, that game
There was another game with Rainbow I think when he actually build a sizable Terran army too.
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On June 13 2011 00:05 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 23:22 saritenite wrote:On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote:
Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race? Hiya vs Free on Triathlon. Hiya went 3 port wraith into nukes, Free MC'd an scv in return and tries to build a CC. was so good, that game There was another game with Rainbow I think when he actually build a sizable Terran army too.
I think it was IntoTheRainbow vs Cloud, the only pro-game in which a player actually controlled armies of two different races. Rainbow build nothing but tanks, but had a substantial number of them to support his goons.
Stork also did it against ggplay, but he only made lings out of the hatcheries.
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On June 12 2011 21:30 dukethegold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 18:55 d_so wrote:On June 12 2011 10:57 dukethegold wrote:On June 12 2011 09:54 d_so wrote:
u know how when a terran is way ahead in a tvt he builds 20 starports and masses wraiths? I want to see that in pvz In that case, mass corsair would still be better with disruption web. And as somebody else pointed out, cost for cost templar with storm can do that and better. I personally think if Scout starts with 10 speed (same as corsair), it will have greater usage. nah dude. i know it sounds retarded but massed up scouts with muta micro can beat everything zerg has, land or air. U micro the scouts and take out hydras one by one, then one shot overlords, attack ground against scourge. the only thing that can beat 24 scouts with muta micro is devourers + mutas or perhaps some sort of ensnare play. Corsairs of course can't hit ground. That measly 7 ish damage or so starts really adding up when u have enough of them, plus it's common knowledge that scouts never die. The reason I'm for this is cuz I saw it on an MBC Game show, the one where they have all those weird replays. Even if it was a low level game (though the Toss had reallllly nice micro), I think it is feasible and is only limited by resources. Given enough resources and pro level micro, I think it can be an effective strat. So it all comes down to the cost. The cost of the Scout is indeed insane, not to mention the 3 supplies. It was probably nerfed in the past due to its dominance during an era when island maps were popular.
Right, in most situations if you tried to transition to scouts, you'd just die to the zerg while you gave up map control and army. Corsairs are just so cheap that you can incorporate them into your play basically anytime you want. If you get enough out of them, it's possible to add carriers but your zerg friend will be answering with mass air and casters (your units will be purple, green, and red, especially if you are stacking them to micro). The fact that 22-24 scouts is good is a nice thought, but you can never get there fluidly.
Also, in the case of mass air PvZ, sairs are not only cheaper but doubtless better because of what they do en masse to stacked air. Even if you aren't playing with devourers and carriers, that's what sairs are good at in midgame PvZ to begin with.
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lol scouts, are not used because theyre slow, but they deal big damage, and theyre too expensive!
thats why sairs rock ^^
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I can see Scouts being used in a way that you mass them up from ONE Stargate in PvZ after halt on Corsairs productions. Or add another StarGate to produce them faster but no more than 2 Stargate. Only efficient way I can see them to work is to stay in-base to defend against Drops but after Zerg get Hive tech, you are screwed because of Dark Swarm.
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On June 12 2011 07:10 DMXD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2011 06:41 littlefighter wrote:
Can someone explain why forge fe isn't used more frequently in pvp and pvt?
Wasn't sure where to ask this question but this thread was about new protoss ideas. There is a pretty cool build in pvp where you go for a dt rush into forge expansion and also fast nex>>>>>forge fe.
When you forge fe in pvt and pvp, your opponent can safely fe without the forge.
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Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake.
It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
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Speaking of mind control, one thing I'm surprised progamers haven't utilized is mind controlling a shuttle (preferably with a reaver or two inside ;D) in PvP. Even though players don't always go reavers in PvP, the addition of Feedback still seems like it might pay off anyway.
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EPT
