Your esteemed selves may recall the glorious golden past, when you turtle on two base for 40 minutes and unleash a swarm of fury consisted of no less than 48 almighty Scouts, piloted by sons of Aiur. Your AI foes can only stare haplessly at your flying angels of death and put up a valiant but futile resistance.
Arrhh...The good times.
Yet, the present time is one of trial and difficulty. It has been three years since a Protoss won a championship. Indeed, the very last trophy added to the Protoss treasure trove was back on 2008/11/16, when Bisu defeated Jangbi for his golden badge.
The last remaining unit to have no impact on the pro-scene. Valkyrie has found its place in TvT and TvZ. Queen has found a place in ZvT. While those two previous forgotten units have significantly boosted the power of Terran and Zerg, what of the Protoss?
It was left behind to rot.
But if the Valkyrie and Queen can fulfill their theorycraft roles as BW metagame becomes more sophisticated and the players becomes more skilled, surely so can the Scout!
But how?
And what of Dark Archon? Disruption web? Will they also see the light of day and revive our pitiful race?
I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
Another thing that Protoss needs to abuse is Hallucinations. Fake all in with units to force the enemy to go out of position but then flank their army or something.
Scouts could used if you try to mass them like Carriers because they are made faster and don't require the minerals to produce interceptors.
Dark Archon for Vessel Mind Control? Should work with arbiter tech. But then again, all that gas.. Scouts are usefull sometimes. Watch Kal vs Light. Epic clutch defense.
On June 12 2011 01:55 Uldridge wrote: Dark Archon for Vessel Mind Control? Should work with arbiter tech. But then again, all that gas.. Scouts are usefull sometimes. Watch Kal vs Light. Epic clutch defense.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
I dont think you can have 2x protoss supplies. Never tried it but that would be weird. That would mean you could have 4 army (toss, toss, terran, zerg)
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
Wow, that's so wrong, I don't even...
You only get an extra 200 supply if you mind control a different race.
On June 12 2011 01:40 dukethegold wrote: A Metagame shift is necessary.
The Scout.
The last remaining unit to have no impact on the pro-scene. Valkyrie has found its place in TvT and TvZ. Queen has found a place in ZvT. While those two previous forgotten units have significantly boosted the power of Terran and Zerg, what of the Protoss?
It was left behind to rot.
But if the Valkyrie and Queen can fulfill their theorycraft roles as BW metagame becomes more sophisticated and the players becomes more skilled, surely so can the Scout!
But how?
If this is meant to be a post to address imbalance it's the wrong approach. You have to identify weaknesses at different times of the game and see how they can be addressed. If you can make a change with Scouts that smooths out the issue that is great. Just don't be a slave to fixing a unit that has a clear role.
Scouts are hard counters to Devourers, Battlecruisers, Carriers, and Wraiths without cloak protection. Each unit has very restrictive reasons to be fielded against Protoss, so Scouts don't become necessary.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
On June 12 2011 01:40 dukethegold wrote: A Metagame shift is necessary.
The Scout.
The last remaining unit to have no impact on the pro-scene. Valkyrie has found its place in TvT and TvZ. Queen has found a place in ZvT. While those two previous forgotten units have significantly boosted the power of Terran and Zerg, what of the Protoss?
It was left behind to rot.
But if the Valkyrie and Queen can fulfill their theorycraft roles as BW metagame becomes more sophisticated and the players becomes more skilled, surely so can the Scout!
But how?
If this is meant to be a post to address imbalance it's the wrong approach. You have to identify weaknesses at different times of the game and see how they can be addressed. If you can make a change with Scouts that smooths out the issue that is great. Just don't be a slave to fixing a unit that has a clear role.
Scouts are hard counters to Devourers, Battlecruisers, Carriers, and Wraiths without cloak protection. Each unit has very restrictive reasons to be fielded against Protoss, so Scouts don't become necessary.
While scouts may be useful against some air units, pretty much anything a scout can do in a useful manner, a corsair can do better. Scouts are useless because the corsair is significantly more efficient and effective than a scout. Corsair improves on speed, cost, and damage. Scouts are just useless unless your playing air wars, then a scout corsair mix could be decent. Scouts only real purpose is humiliation.
This will never happen unfortunately... The scout only uses in BW are somewhat semidecent against Carriers and BC if they got the speed upgrade. But in a normal pvp you dont see carrier usage and in a normal pvt you never see BC.
Still it will be used mainly for BM'ing players like Fantasy who got terrible GG timing.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
I sincerely hope you are trolling since you have 2000 posts.
I use the scout if people have bad gg timing. Played a game a lilttle while ago where I had 7 starports pumping scouts. I nearly lost in the end, but didn't, so no worries . I also used dark archons in almost every pvz that hits late game. feedback vs defilers and maelstrom vs ultra ling is amazingly cost effective, and because of the range of these spells the darchon rarely dies.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe (any other unit for that matter) when you have 200/200 psi?
I'm not suggesting that would somehow allow you to get 400/400 but it would be interesting to see what would happen.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
201/200
Somewhat expected I suppose. But at least it would make it possible for 400/400 and more, albeit a bit more difficult.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
201/200
Has this been tested? I thought it would become 1/200 next to the 200/200 like it would with MC'ed Z or T units.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
201/200
Somewhat expected I suppose. But at least it would make it possible for 400/400 and more, albeit a bit more difficult.
How? How would that make it any possible for 400/400? It's not like you can build a pylon and increase your food at that point. It would make as much sense for a Zerg to use the extractor trick, get an extra drone, make a hatchery, and somehow end up with a higher maximum food count. Regardless of whose it was, when you mind control a probe then it's a probe, no different from any other probe.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
201/200
Somewhat expected I suppose. But at least it would make it possible for 400/400 and more, albeit a bit more difficult.
How? How would that make it any possible for 400/400? It's not like you can build a pylon and increase your food at that point. It would make as much sense for a Zerg to use the extractor trick, get an extra drone, make a hatchery, and somehow end up with a higher maximum food count. Regardless of whose it was, when you mind control a probe then it's a probe, no different from any other probe.
If Mind Controlled units could be added to your army even if its maxed-out then you could, provided you have a lot of DA's and/or patience keep mind controlling ad infinitum.
Edit: Seems you were replying to someone else so nevermind.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
201/200
Yea 201/200 and all the minerals that the probe ever mined. right?
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
201/200
Yea 201/200 and all the minerals that the probe ever mined. right?
Perhaps I was using the wrong approach. I should have remade the OP to ask for any hidden potential in the entire Protoss arsenal that can be exploited to change the metagame
Such as the disruptor web, mind control and the Scout.
On June 12 2011 01:40 dukethegold wrote: But if the Valkyrie and Queen can fulfill their theorycraft roles as BW metagame becomes more sophisticated and the players becomes more skilled
This is true in part, but they're not totally comparable. Both units have been used since many years ago. The scout too, as you note. Sometimes you could open scout instead of corsair if you were doing 1 base stargate vs Z. Also, opening 1 scout or sair was possible vT on island maps (actually, vs any race). But like others have said, basically anything the scout does, the sair does better. Even if we saw another mass air PvZ, it would basically have to be sair/carrier again.
Dropships can just be stopped with goons, same as shuttles. If you could extract something from the fact that the scout can hit ground (drones), like making one instead of a sair vs Z, but if you FFEd it'll just get scourged, and the same thing is accomplished by reaver/sair which kills drones much better. It'd probably best be used in a protracted, caster based PvP, but even then, probably thrown out quite quickly. Maybe lategame PvT to snipe tanks and partly function as recalls, but you'll have no upgrades for it. In this case I think I'd prefer them to mass sairs (who would only be able to use dweb, and the argument usually is just to pump out high templar instead). But you have to upgrade carriers to really be on even ground anyway.
i remember the good old days before SCII when people actually post insightful strategic things other than what would happen if you mind control a probe.
If they buff ground damage of scout to, f.e. 15 or 18 to kill ground units faster, then it would be semi-usefull unit in some games against terrans. Yet, it has pathetic ground attack.
Even the units that the scout is supposed to counter end up countering it. In large numbers devourer aoe owns scouts. In large numbers BC yamatos cut the scout force in half. Even 1v1 without yamato, it takes 2 scouts to beat a BC. And 2 scouts cost way more than a BC. Even carriers in large numbers and with good micro end up beating scouts (though I think scouts end up taking it if everything is max upgraded). I guess they take 3 scourge hits to kill which is nice... but that doesn't help much with its 275 mineral/125 gas price tag.
Scouts do so little damage air to ground, that they can't even harrass. (it cannot outdps 1 scv's repair)
But even beyond pointing out that it sucks absolutely, anything that the protoss might want to achieve could be done more effectively by another unit. Except defending no-goliath mech timing attacks from ForGG, I guess.
On June 12 2011 04:09 dukethegold wrote: Perhaps I was using the wrong approach. I should have remade the OP to ask for any hidden potential in the entire Protoss arsenal that can be exploited to change the metagame
Speaking about PvZ in particular, the hidden potential in any protoss army is that it becomes very powerful if you let it accumulate instead of throwing away units randomly. Bisu figured it out this season. I think the other protoss players will get the drift in a year or so.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
Another thing that Protoss needs to abuse is Hallucinations. Fake all in with units to force the enemy to go out of position but then flank their army or something.
Scouts could used if you try to mass them like Carriers because they are made faster and don't require the minerals to produce interceptors.
Actually I am surprised Protoss haven't been using DA for feedback in PvT at all, sure you might say it's a waste of 2psi but the range and accuracy CANCELS out any potential EMPs which is probably more than worth it.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
How does the last thing work? Are you suggesting that one toss mind controls 100 dragoons somehow?
Mind control a probe, rebuild a 200 army?
You've never actually mind controlled a probe before, have you.
es oke I mean look
I mc 1 probe, I can make 400/400 I mc 2 probes I can make 600/600
PROFIT.
ES AWESOME.
What if you try to mind control your opponents probe when you have 200/200 psi?
201/200
Somewhat expected I suppose. But at least it would make it possible for 400/400 and more, albeit a bit more difficult.
How? How would that make it any possible for 400/400? It's not like you can build a pylon and increase your food at that point. It would make as much sense for a Zerg to use the extractor trick, get an extra drone, make a hatchery, and somehow end up with a higher maximum food count. Regardless of whose it was, when you mind control a probe then it's a probe, no different from any other probe.
If Mind Controlled units could be added to your army even if its maxed-out then you could, provided you have a lot of DA's and/or patience keep mind controlling ad infinitum.
Edit: Seems you were replying to someone else so nevermind.
That would make it 200+X/200. The supply limit will never change.
Even besides all this, practically a game will never go like that.
In this age of mechanical skill/limits protoss users just dont have the tools to succeed and it shows in individual leagues. I think that if there ever was some change in protoss that could make a better game for brood war it would be a speed increase on the high templar, i am not talking about making it into a zergling or a vulture, but at the speed it goes now protoss users lose many games just by having high templars, which trail the rest of the protoss army, and subsequently get picked off. having a high templar, which is faster would I think make protoss a race that could compete at the pro level, and I think through this we would again see protoss finalists, and gold medal winners. Spread the word, it is a good idea.
The cannon helps to snipe scvs when you're being bunker rushed though. It's safer than 12 nex and faster/safer than 1 gate expand -> 4 dragoons -> expand?_? maybe
On June 12 2011 07:30 littlefighter wrote: The cannon helps to snipe scvs when you're being bunker rushed though. It's safer than 12 nex and faster/safer than 1 gate expand -> 4 dragoons -> expand?_? maybe
It's not safer than 12nex at all. The delayed economy and gateway makes you vulnerable to a fast vulture runby. And just runby's of all sorts.
I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this.
On June 12 2011 07:48 DMXD wrote: I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this.
Not to mention that it could be raped with Siege Expo with a few extra marines, Tanks >>> Cannons
On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote: Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race?
Yes, it's very old though, IntoTheRainbow vs Cloud, it was from like 2002 I think.
On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote: Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race?
On June 12 2011 07:07 ctl4 wrote: In this age of mechanical skill/limits protoss users just dont have the tools to succeed and it shows in individual leagues. I think that if there ever was some change in protoss that could make a better game for brood war it would be a speed increase on the high templar, i am not talking about making it into a zergling or a vulture, but at the speed it goes now protoss users lose many games just by having high templars, which trail the rest of the protoss army, and subsequently get picked off. having a high templar, which is faster would I think make protoss a race that could compete at the pro level, and I think through this we would again see protoss finalists, and gold medal winners. Spread the word, it is a good idea.
Stork and Movie have both made finals in the last two years. While it's true that more random Zergs have done that (Calm, Kwanro, Yarnc, EffOrt, Hydra, great), the number of Terrans who aren't Flash that have done this is... fantasy. So are Protoss and Terran really falling equally behind Zerg? It's possible - I'd be inclined to say that sAviOr-Jaedong in a real way ushered in the Age of Zerg in a way that Boxer-oov created an Age of Terran, but that's not a researched argument.
What I just don't see significant reasons to worry about the balance of the game. The Zerg-wrecking machine that is Bisu (as well as the PvZ mad skills of Stork, Jangbi, free, Kal, Snow, etc. when any of them are on their game) show that there's not a balance issue that needs to be addressed... or at least if there is, I'm way short on ideas for things that could change without really causing other problems. (I'm going to assume that PvT remains mainly as usual - Protoss favored on an "average" map.)
I think the more plausible argument is that we *happen* to have great talents in the Terran and Zerg races right now, and not so much in Protoss. Forget the six dragons, if Flash had played Protoss, with his dedication and drive we'd be looking at five titles and counting for a Protoss player. But in the real world, there simply isn't a "complete" Protoss on the scene atm. Stork is streaky and often has weak PvZ even when playing well; Bisu's closest to the total thing but his other matchups are nothing like as strong as his PvZ. JangBi imo was the Real Deal and New Hope... up until that crushing lost to Luxury. I think we're beginning to see his resurrection. What we are seeing is a lot of good young Protoss players. KHAN rookies Grape and Brave are both promising, as was M18M before leaving for ACE. Sun's got potential. Horang2 continues to improve. There may be others as well.
On June 12 2011 07:07 ctl4 wrote: In this age of mechanical skill/limits protoss users just dont have the tools to succeed and it shows in individual leagues. I think that if there ever was some change in protoss that could make a better game for brood war it would be a speed increase on the high templar, i am not talking about making it into a zergling or a vulture, but at the speed it goes now protoss users lose many games just by having high templars, which trail the rest of the protoss army, and subsequently get picked off. having a high templar, which is faster would I think make protoss a race that could compete at the pro level, and I think through this we would again see protoss finalists, and gold medal winners. Spread the word, it is a good idea.
Oh come on. P is fine. look at this seasons proleague. pvt is 55% pvz 50%. protoss is a great race with no weak matchup since the neo bisu build got popular. Compare this to Zerg who is 40% zvt and 50% zvp. and Terran 60% tvz 45% tvp. Clearly zerg has been the least capable race this season.
Your suggestion would make zvp just as bad as zvt is. there is no need for one race to have two of the hardest matchups in the game, one is already enough
On June 12 2011 09:21 VGhost wrote: I think the more plausible argument is that we *happen* to have great talents in the Terran and Zerg races right now, and not so much in Protoss. Forget the six dragons, if Flash had played Protoss, with his dedication and drive we'd be looking at five titles and counting for a Protoss player. But in the real world, there simply isn't a "complete" Protoss on the scene atm. Stork is streaky and often has weak PvZ even when playing well; Bisu's closest to the total thing but his other matchups are nothing like as strong as his PvZ. JangBi imo was the Real Deal and New Hope... up until that crushing lost to Luxury. I think we're beginning to see his resurrection. What we are seeing is a lot of good young Protoss players. KHAN rookies Grape and Brave are both promising, as was M18M before leaving for ACE. Sun's got potential. Horang2 continues to improve. There may be others as well.
The problem is that people have been making the 'not as good players' argument for years now, at some point you have to ask why there aren't as many? Is it because the mechanics of the Protoss aren't allowing them to emerge?
As more time passes and the sample size grows larger and larger the random variance argument grows weaker and weaker.
Stork and Movie have both made finals in the last two years. While it's true that more random Zergs have done that (Calm, Kwanro, Yarnc, EffOrt, Hydra, great), the number of Terrans who aren't Flash that have done this is... fantasy. So are Protoss and Terran really falling equally behind Zerg? It's possible - I'd be inclined to say that sAviOr-Jaedong in a real way ushered in the Age of Zerg in a way that Boxer-oov created an Age of Terran, but that's not a researched argument.
What I just don't see significant reasons to worry about the balance of the game. + Show Spoiler +
The Zerg-wrecking machine that is Bisu (as well as the PvZ mad skills of Stork, Jangbi, free, Kal, Snow, etc. when any of them are on their game) show that there's not a balance issue that needs to be addressed... or at least if there is, I'm way short on ideas for things that could change without really causing other problems. (I'm going to assume that PvT remains mainly as usual - Protoss favored on an "average" map.)
I think the more plausible argument is that we *happen* to have great talents in the Terran and Zerg races right now, and not so much in Protoss. Forget the six dragons, if Flash had played Protoss, with his dedication and drive we'd be looking at five titles and counting for a Protoss player. But in the real world, there simply isn't a "complete" Protoss on the scene atm. Stork is streaky and often has weak PvZ even when playing well; Bisu's closest to the total thing but his other matchups are nothing like as strong as his PvZ. JangBi imo was the Real Deal and New Hope... up until that crushing lost to Luxury. I think we're beginning to see his resurrection. What we are seeing is a lot of good young Protoss players. KHAN rookies Grape and Brave are both promising, as was M18M before leaving for ACE. Sun's got potential. Horang2 continues to improve. There may be others as well.
This is part of a write up I've been making to argue the merit for balance changes through SC2BW mod. Keep in mind this is only a portion of my 12 page MS Word Doc write up.
One must first look here (http://i.imgur.com/uxz19.png) to see the underlying influence of these changes. Evidence suggests each race has exactly one match up they are favored to win and one they are favored to lose. Evidence also suggests none of these races share the same favorable match ups. In aggregate this means while the races are out of balance, in the ecosystem of having all three races compete against each other, they are relatively balanced. There is one major caveat to both theories of whether or not the game still has balance issues and that is the quality of the champions represented by each race. OSL(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OnGameNet_Starleague_%28OSL%29#Medals_won_per_Player) MSL(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OnGameNet_Starleague_%28OSL%29#Medals_won_per_Player) The general trend is supposed to be Z>>>P, P>T, T>>Z in professional play but when we get to the finals interesting trends emerge. 14 wins for Terrans and 6 wins for Zerg at the championship level 4 wins for Protoss and 7 wins for Terrans at the championship level 7 wins for Zerg and 3 wins for Protoss to determine who was number one.
Terrans were winning moreso in TvZ as expected but the majority of Zerg wins occurred after 2006 which suggest an adaptation has been occurring which bucks the trend of T>>Z Zerg has been winning more than Protoss when they meet in the finals as expected. Sadly the majority of Protoss wins came before patch 1.08 which is a very troubling fact. This fact is compounded by Protoss losing to Terrans more so than they were expected to be. The power gap between T and P is the smallest of the three when looking at all progamers but the gap exists.
This has the consequence of saying on one hand the game offers all the races the tools needed to win because the races can win with unfavorable odds. On the other hand it also says that Protoss is underperforming. Protss has only become a champion once post patch 1.08 in their most unfavorable match up. Protoss have also fallen below expectations of the progamer group performance in proving they are favored to win against Terran.
On June 12 2011 09:21 VGhost wrote: I think the more plausible argument is that we *happen* to have great talents in the Terran and Zerg races right now, and not so much in Protoss. Forget the six dragons, if Flash had played Protoss, with his dedication and drive we'd be looking at five titles and counting for a Protoss player. But in the real world, there simply isn't a "complete" Protoss on the scene atm. Stork is streaky and often has weak PvZ even when playing well; Bisu's closest to the total thing but his other matchups are nothing like as strong as his PvZ. JangBi imo was the Real Deal and New Hope... up until that crushing lost to Luxury. I think we're beginning to see his resurrection. What we are seeing is a lot of good young Protoss players. KHAN rookies Grape and Brave are both promising, as was M18M before leaving for ACE. Sun's got potential. Horang2 continues to improve. There may be others as well.
The problem is that people have been making the 'not as good players' argument for years now, at some point you have to ask why there aren't as many? Is it because the mechanics of the Protoss aren't allowing them to emerge?
As more time passes and the sample size grows larger and larger the random variance argument grows weaker and weaker.
flash and jaedong are a huge problem for that argument. it's hard to talk about random variance when approximately half of the individual league finals slots for the past year+ are taken up by two players.
if protoss has a problem it's that pvz is so hard - the protoss who you would expect to be the ones to win leagues usually get eliminated by zergs (i don't have any statistics to back this up but i imagine they exist). to me, bisu's pvz (71.19%, what the fucking fuck) is sufficient to show that the problem isn't that protoss is underpowered, it's that it has an extremely difficult (and slightly unfavorable) matchup against the most common race in the scene. If you gave every protoss bisu's pvz and removed flash and jaedong i'm sure we'd see more protoss starleague wins.
What we might see is a Dark Archon usage in PvP: 1. Feedback templars 2. Mind Control shuttles with reavers
Sadly maelstrom is too weak of an ability against anything but zerg air. So in PvZ we can only see a lonely lategame DA feedbacking defilers... still I think reavers are more worth it but, if queens start to get used more it will become necessary.
I think Bisu may incorporate webs into his corsair play on some special map, but I don't see it as game-breaking.
Sorry scout there is not room for you... you are slow to make, too expensive, upgrades are hard to get, without the speed you are flying way too slow, you ground damage is poor, your low armor will get you easily killed by almost anything(including corsairs and valkyries).
The Scout is a slower, more expensive corsair. It's ground attack is basically a formality for the cost. The only advantage it really has is that it's a lot better against air units with a lot of armor, like battlecruisers. It's a very niche role: Anti-capital ships.
Also, the attacks sound like (are?) a machine gun and a missile, which aren't even protoss sound effects what the hell. It's way too low-tech for Protoss. It's be like marines using muskets, or Zerg.....I was going to "Zerglings absorbing people amoeba-style", but actually that'd be kind of awesome.
Racial balance/imbalance is dependent on the maps. Protoss-favoring maps have always existed and will always exist.
My impression, however, is that KESPA cycles out Protoss-favoring maps (like Central Plains) more readily than Terran or Zerg-favored maps. Consequently, Protoss is somewhat disadvantaged in professional play, and appears 'streaky'. (No, it's just that all the non-streaky players picked other races, lolz.)
Stork and Bisu look better than Jaedong and Flash when the map pool is slanted to Protoss.
On June 12 2011 01:40 dukethegold wrote: But if the Valkyrie and Queen can fulfill their theorycraft roles as BW metagame becomes more sophisticated and the players becomes more skilled
This is true in part, but they're not totally comparable. Both units have been used since many years ago. The scout too, as you note. Sometimes you could open scout instead of corsair if you were doing 1 base stargate vs Z.
Indeed; a Corsair's harassment can be blocked by a single spore to defend your overlords, whereas the scout forces in-base hydralisks until the Zerg has a Spire, because it can also attack ground. If I get back into playing BW, I'm going to try opening 1 base Stargate Corsair --> Scout, and cancel the Scout if my Corsair sees a hydra den. (The higher cost for the Scout, and extra 40 seconds of build time + longer flight time, are really inconvenient.)
However, 1 base Protoss openings are generally seen as underpowered for anything but a surprise play on modern macro maps, because they rely on ground units for defense, which can't apply proper pressure on maps with very long rush distances. Certainly 1 base Protoss PvZ is weak if Zerg does a more economic build than No-Gas Overpool and knows how to respond well.
The fact with using scouts is that they are too costly for their effectiveness. The 275 mins and 125 gas could be used somewhere else and get better results. We should ask blizz to patch the game and make scouts viable .
If they will really patch it, (one can dream) IMO they should make the AtG more powerful and the AtA less powerful so as not to overlap with the sair and speed upg. researched already.
On June 12 2011 15:54 Severedevil wrote: Racial balance/imbalance is dependent on the maps. Protoss-favoring maps have always existed and will always exist.
Map considerations are something to think about. Only 5 maps in the history of BW with statistically acceptable deviations had balanced matchups across the board. (Tau Cross, Blue Storm, Fighting Spirit, Guillotine, Arcadia 2)
Yet it is unfair to suggest that the issues is primarily map dependent. Altering terrain doesn't take away from the aspects that make each race unique and it is these unique qualities that allow them to maximize map utilization to the detriment of the other races.
On June 12 2011 16:24 sylverfyre wrote: Man, remember how they lowered scouts air to ground dps in patch 1.04? That shit was OP. ... completely op right? ...right?
Heard about that one, but what triggered that patch?
On June 12 2011 15:54 Severedevil wrote: Indeed; a Corsair's harassment can be blocked by a single spore to defend your overlords, whereas the scout forces in-base hydralisks until the Zerg has a Spire, because it can also attack ground. If I get back into playing BW, I'm going to try opening 1 base Stargate Corsair --> Scout, and cancel the Scout if my Corsair sees a hydra den. (The higher cost for the Scout, and extra 40 seconds of build time + longer flight time, are really inconvenient.)
However, 1 base Protoss openings are generally seen as underpowered for anything but a surprise play on modern macro maps, because they rely on ground units for defense, which can't apply proper pressure on maps with very long rush distances. Certainly 1 base Protoss PvZ is weak if Zerg does a more economic build than No-Gas Overpool and knows how to respond well.
Think there was a game where some Protoss tried a 1-base Scout-DT build against JD in WCG not sure. Theorycraft-wise, Scout will kill the Overlord faster than a Corsair will, which could lead to more potential DT dmg. It'd be terribly difficult to execute though I imagine, not to mention all the gas needed.. Building a Scout would also be pretty useful in the event of a ling all-in (if you already have Stargate that is..)
Much vs Bisu demonstrates a situation where Scouts would be a superior choice vs Carriers, rather than mass goons or DA/MC, since the map structure of Plasma makes it difficult for Dragoons to fight Carriers, and the time needed to have DA/MC ready would take a bit long. Pretty much the only situation you'd want to go Scouts in a PvP though.
Think there was that game between Kal and ForGG where Scouts saved Kal (not sure of the details). Bisu used Scouts in several PvTs, like his infamous game vs Hwasin and I think a game vs Nada on Monty Hall.
On June 12 2011 09:54 d_so wrote: u know how when a terran is way ahead in a tvt he builds 20 starports and masses wraiths? I want to see that in pvz
In that case, mass corsair would still be better with disruption web.
And as somebody else pointed out, cost for cost templar with storm can do that and better.
I personally think if Scout starts with 10 speed (same as corsair), it will have greater usage.
nah dude. i know it sounds retarded but massed up scouts with muta micro can beat everything zerg has, land or air. U micro the scouts and take out hydras one by one, then one shot overlords, attack ground against scourge. the only thing that can beat 24 scouts with muta micro is devourers + mutas or perhaps some sort of ensnare play.
Corsairs of course can't hit ground. That measly 7 ish damage or so starts really adding up when u have enough of them, plus it's common knowledge that scouts never die.
The reason I'm for this is cuz I saw it on an MBC Game show, the one where they have all those weird replays. Even if it was a low level game (though the Toss had reallllly nice micro), I think it is feasible and is only limited by resources. Given enough resources and pro level micro, I think it can be an effective strat.
On June 12 2011 09:54 d_so wrote: u know how when a terran is way ahead in a tvt he builds 20 starports and masses wraiths? I want to see that in pvz
In that case, mass corsair would still be better with disruption web.
And as somebody else pointed out, cost for cost templar with storm can do that and better.
I personally think if Scout starts with 10 speed (same as corsair), it will have greater usage.
nah dude. i know it sounds retarded but massed up scouts with muta micro can beat everything zerg has, land or air. U micro the scouts and take out hydras one by one, then one shot overlords, attack ground against scourge. the only thing that can beat 24 scouts with muta micro is devourers + mutas or perhaps some sort of ensnare play.
Corsairs of course can't hit ground. That measly 7 ish damage or so starts really adding up when u have enough of them, plus it's common knowledge that scouts never die.
The reason I'm for this is cuz I saw it on an MBC Game show, the one where they have all those weird replays. Even if it was a low level game (though the Toss had reallllly nice micro), I think it is feasible and is only limited by resources. Given enough resources and pro level micro, I think it can be an effective strat.
So it all comes down to the cost. The cost of the Scout is indeed insane, not to mention the 3 supplies. It was probably nerfed in the past due to its dominance during an era when island maps were popular.
On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote: Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race?
Hiya vs Free on Triathlon. Hiya went 3 port wraith into nukes, Free MC'd an scv in return and tries to build a CC. was so good, that game
On June 12 2011 14:59 mutantmagnet wrote: ...Sadly the majority of Protoss wins came before patch 1.08 which is a very troubling fact. This fact is compounded by Protoss losing to Terrans more so than they were expected to be. The power gap between T and P is the smallest of the three when looking at all progamers but the gap exists.
This has the consequence of saying on one hand the game offers all the races the tools needed to win because the races can win with unfavorable odds. On the other hand it also says that Protoss is underperforming. Protss has only become a champion once post patch 1.08 in their most unfavorable match up. Protoss have also fallen below expectations of the progamer group performance in proving they are favored to win against Terran.
The 1.08 change I think was most critical to lowering P success was the heavy storm nerf. (I played P at the time and I'm still a little bitter about it.) It's now 112 damage where before it was... I want to say twice that, but that might be exaggerating. Obviously changing it back would be a huge change (one-shot tanks, lurkers, etc.) and would mess up the balance for a little bit, but I don't know what it would do in the long term.
Also, looking at the liquipedia page is interesting: Terran got buffed, Protoss got nerfed, and Zerg... probably got nerfed overall but not by much.
I think scouts have been tried and tested. Probably not worth that kind of investment since they will require a mass to be useful. Getting to that kind of mass requires much resources and leaves you open to attack very easily.
On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote: Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race?
Hiya vs Free on Triathlon. Hiya went 3 port wraith into nukes, Free MC'd an scv in return and tries to build a CC. was so good, that game
There was another game with Rainbow I think when he actually build a sizable Terran army too.
On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote: Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race?
Hiya vs Free on Triathlon. Hiya went 3 port wraith into nukes, Free MC'd an scv in return and tries to build a CC. was so good, that game
There was another game with Rainbow I think when he actually build a sizable Terran army too.
I think it was IntoTheRainbow vs Cloud, the only pro-game in which a player actually controlled armies of two different races. Rainbow build nothing but tanks, but had a substantial number of them to support his goons.
Stork also did it against ggplay, but he only made lings out of the hatcheries.
On June 12 2011 09:54 d_so wrote: u know how when a terran is way ahead in a tvt he builds 20 starports and masses wraiths? I want to see that in pvz
In that case, mass corsair would still be better with disruption web.
And as somebody else pointed out, cost for cost templar with storm can do that and better.
I personally think if Scout starts with 10 speed (same as corsair), it will have greater usage.
nah dude. i know it sounds retarded but massed up scouts with muta micro can beat everything zerg has, land or air. U micro the scouts and take out hydras one by one, then one shot overlords, attack ground against scourge. the only thing that can beat 24 scouts with muta micro is devourers + mutas or perhaps some sort of ensnare play.
Corsairs of course can't hit ground. That measly 7 ish damage or so starts really adding up when u have enough of them, plus it's common knowledge that scouts never die.
The reason I'm for this is cuz I saw it on an MBC Game show, the one where they have all those weird replays. Even if it was a low level game (though the Toss had reallllly nice micro), I think it is feasible and is only limited by resources. Given enough resources and pro level micro, I think it can be an effective strat.
So it all comes down to the cost. The cost of the Scout is indeed insane, not to mention the 3 supplies. It was probably nerfed in the past due to its dominance during an era when island maps were popular.
Right, in most situations if you tried to transition to scouts, you'd just die to the zerg while you gave up map control and army. Corsairs are just so cheap that you can incorporate them into your play basically anytime you want. If you get enough out of them, it's possible to add carriers but your zerg friend will be answering with mass air and casters (your units will be purple, green, and red, especially if you are stacking them to micro). The fact that 22-24 scouts is good is a nice thought, but you can never get there fluidly.
Also, in the case of mass air PvZ, sairs are not only cheaper but doubtless better because of what they do en masse to stacked air. Even if you aren't playing with devourers and carriers, that's what sairs are good at in midgame PvZ to begin with.
I can see Scouts being used in a way that you mass them up from ONE Stargate in PvZ after halt on Corsairs productions. Or add another StarGate to produce them faster but no more than 2 Stargate. Only efficient way I can see them to work is to stay in-base to defend against Drops but after Zerg get Hive tech, you are screwed because of Dark Swarm.
Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
Speaking of mind control, one thing I'm surprised progamers haven't utilized is mind controlling a shuttle (preferably with a reaver or two inside ;D) in PvP. Even though players don't always go reavers in PvP, the addition of Feedback still seems like it might pay off anyway.
On June 13 2011 02:54 Masheyoon wrote: Speaking of mind control, one thing I'm surprised progamers haven't utilized is mind controlling a shuttle (preferably with a reaver or two inside ;D) in PvP. Even though players don't always go reavers in PvP, the addition of Feedback still seems like it might pay off anyway.
Outside of the fact that Mind Control needs to be researched (thus will come long after Storm, and Amulet(?) which you obviously will research asap).. Not to mention it takes a ton of energy to cast, and DA doesnt have Devour (did i mention Devour is OP? xD).. Of course 250/200 is a steep cost as well, and after that spell (Feedback/Mind Control) that investment is useless.
That much investment for something that *might* be useful is not very worth it imo. Im not saying its useless, just that it seems that something else is better in most situations.
I think I'd rather have a corsair vs zerg, or a carrier for 60 more in game seconds PvT.
Corsair does splash damage, it's faster, cheaper, builds faster, can stun ground targets in AOE, etc. Against terran, you need a fleet beacon anyway for their super expensive extremely lengthy upgrade; I'd rather just go carriers.
You fly a bunch of scourge into 6 corsairs also none of them die because they 1 shot scourge in an area. You fly a bunch of scourge into slow scouts, they all die because their missles are single target and slow.
Scouts are awesome, but sadly they are only capital ship killers. If it wasn't for the fact that Protoss already has already strong spells to deal with capital ships (Storm, Mind Control, Stasis) we actually might see them in use. (think Carriers in PvP or Late game BCs in TvP).
On June 13 2011 02:54 Masheyoon wrote: Speaking of mind control, one thing I'm surprised progamers haven't utilized is mind controlling a shuttle (preferably with a reaver or two inside ;D) in PvP. Even though players don't always go reavers in PvP, the addition of Feedback still seems like it might pay off anyway.
Mind Control costs 150 mana and is expensive to research. By the time you have it, you probably won't see many reavers in PvP anyway, because Psionic Storm destroys them pretty hard.
(Oh, man, how cool would it be if robotic units were immune to psionic storm?)
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
It seems to me the risk is less due to the cost of the units (though the Terran units are less expensive, 400/300/6 vs 600+/300/10) than the production facilities involved and build time. Reavers and shuttle both come from the same building, and Protoss (for some reason) often don't build more than one robotics facility until late-game. Total build-time is "200" to rebuild the Protoss drop (plus the extra resources) where the Terran, even if we assume he has only one factory, rebuilds his drop in half that time - and additionally is more likely to have spare dropships, if not tanks, already floating around due to where the game is.
I haven't watched carefully, but Protoss who pump non-stop reaver/shuttle seem rare, even though it forms a very potent backbone to a macro PvZ a la free, Stork (or Bisu last night, for that matter). The reason is almost certainly the high mineral cost of reavers/scarabs/shuttles when zealots are practically a necessity for the matchup, but I do wonder about the decision.
Scouts have a passive effect on the game. Their AA is so strong that it makes some units very unattractive for the other races to get en-mass. I often think just having one scout would be useful against a Terran who likes dropships tho, if only to hunt them down and make sure they don't continue to disrupt your play.
Nony has some vods in his TSL pack using 3star scouts in a normal TvP used in the fashion of wraiths, check it out.
Also there was 2 specific situations i recall where they would have been preferable. BeSt vs Flash on Fortress to stop himself being raped by drops constantly, and Stork vs Fantasy on Pathfinder. Stork could have used good scout micro to prevent the elevators into his base.
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
On June 13 2011 07:22 EtherealDeath wrote: Really? Protoss hasn't won an OSL/MSL since 2008? Wow...
Im new to BW but when watching some old and classic/defining games and stuff all i can say is how? I mean there are some awesome protosses out there aren't there?
On June 13 2011 07:22 EtherealDeath wrote: Really? Protoss hasn't won an OSL/MSL since 2008? Wow...
Im new to BW but when watching some old and classic/defining games and stuff all i can say is how? I mean there are some awesome protosses out there aren't there?
(sry for noobishness of a new BW spectator >.<)
group of death stopped Bisu from getting a silver this past MSL.
On June 13 2011 07:22 EtherealDeath wrote: Really? Protoss hasn't won an OSL/MSL since 2008? Wow...
Im new to BW but when watching some old and classic/defining games and stuff all i can say is how? I mean there are some awesome protosses out there aren't there?
(sry for noobishness of a new BW spectator >.<)
group of death stopped Bisu from getting a silver this past MSL.
I see well ill continue to spec and read some recaps of events and hope for protoss to show some awesomeness Protoss doesnt seem to win as much as the other races though I guess not enough amazing players choose protoss unfortunately
On June 13 2011 06:28 ArvickHero wrote: And I'm not sure, but I think if you MC a spellcaster it resets their mana to zero
I pretty sure that only applies to other Dark Archons.
Would be cool if someone could test this out lol
Actually, I'm pretty sure MC doesn't reset any other unit's energy. It only put's it's own shields to zero, sort of like an EMP without completely draining the DA's energy (so it's left with no shields, 25 health, and energy - 150).
From what I recall, when you mindcontrol a unit, you gain all the spells of the MC'ed unit.
If you MC an enemy high templar with the amulet and stormed researched, all of your templars will instantly receive those upgrades for free.
If you MC a crackling, you will receive the adrenaline gland upgrade, assuming you have lings.
However, the attack/defense upgrades will not be transferred.
When you MC a unit of different race, it will be outside of your Protoss supply. If you MC a drone or SCV, you can build a Zerg or Terran army of your own as they will have their own supplies.
If you MC'ed a caster, it will retain all of its energy.
A Dark Archon will lose all of its shield the instant it casts MC, leaving it with 25hp.
On June 13 2011 09:00 dukethegold wrote: I used to experiment with Mindcontrol a lot.
From what I recall, when you mindcontrol a unit, you gain all the spells of the MC'ed unit.
If you MC an enemy high templar with the amulet and stormed researched, all of your templars will instantly receive those upgrades for free.
If you MC a crackling, you will receive the adrenaline gland upgrade, assuming you have lings.
However, the attack/defense upgrades will not be transferred.
When you MC a unit of different race, it will be outside of your Protoss supply. If you MC a drone or SCV, you can build a Zerg or Terran army of your own as they will have their own supplies.
If you MC'ed a caster, it will retain all of its energy.
A Dark Archon will lose all of its shield the instant it casts MC, leaving it with 25hp.
I can confirm everything said here is completely correct
Topic of scouts usefulness was touched in his thread.
in pvz late game I sometimes start producing scouts instead of sairs with stargate, its not bad because they kill ovies much faster, and can be really annoying for zerg / they need to put spores around or place hydras at bases to protect the drones.
Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
Sair reaver can be deadly if you can get like 1 observer, but you cant.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
Exactly what do you disagree with? DWeb wasn't used primarily because of how out-of-the-way Protosses had to go to use DWeb if they were going standard (standard being only getting 3 Corsairs, and a big ground army), but with Corsair/Reaver/Carrier (which maps do not favor currently, not to mention it is insanely hard to pull off) it was a very natural extension to simply upgrade DWeb (which they did). Now that +1 Corsairs are featured in every PvZ, it would be pretty natural for Protosses to simply upgrade DWeb if they can preserve their Corsairs well.
The problem being is, IF they can preserve their Corsairs well. Most Protoss progamers end up losing almost all their Corsairs by the mid-late game, so of course it's not worth it to spend money on the Fleet Beacon and research DWeb. But since progamers are always using Corsairs now, I feel that Corsair control/preservation will reach a very strong finesse (like Terrans and EMP, way better at it now than before) that will justify forays into DWeb tactics.
Incidentally, Kal also had notably used DWeb in a couple of PvZs earlier this year. Then he fell into a huge slump lol
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
Exactly what do you disagree with? DWeb wasn't used primarily because of how out-of-the-way Protosses had to go to use DWeb if they were going standard (standard being only getting 3 Corsairs, and a big ground army), but with Corsair/Reaver/Carrier (which maps do not favor currently, not to mention it is insanely hard to pull off) it was a very natural extension to simply upgrade DWeb (which they did). Now that +1 Corsairs are featured in every PvZ, it would be pretty natural for Protosses to simply upgrade DWeb if they can preserve their Corsairs well.
The problem being is, IF they can preserve their Corsairs well. Most Protoss progamers end up losing almost all their Corsairs by the mid-late game, so of course it's not worth it to spend money on the Fleet Beacon and research DWeb. But since progamers are always using Corsairs now, I feel that Corsair control/preservation will reach a very strong finesse (like Terrans and EMP, way better at it now than before) that will justify forays into DWeb tactics.
Incidentally, Kal also had notably used DWeb in a couple of PvZs earlier this year. Then he fell into a huge slump lol
well, i disagree with several things. The first is the idea that Dwebb is a new idea to modern PvZ that will soon be utilized in pro play. +1 Corsair play (without reavers) has been played for almost 2 years now ever since 5 hatch hydra started crushing Sair Reaver. Some Protoss builds including the then-decent Jangbi would pump corsairs off of 2 stargates. And yet there have been very few games with Dwebb usage (though i have to admit i didnt watch the Kal games ur referring to).
Dwebb's decline in popularity goes further back imo than modern PvZ. Even during sair/reaver days, players suddenly just stopped upgrading Dwebb. I don't know why it happened, but after Andromeda I can't recall a single map where sair reaver was played with Dwebb.
I don't know why Dwebb suddenly stopped getting popular. But the "natural"-ness of Dwebb in today's PvZ is not a new thing. It should have been natural for the past year and a half or so, yet protoss seems to be deliberately skipping it.
On June 12 2011 07:48 DMXD wrote: I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this.
Just to ask, when did PvT fast nex have a forge with it? As far as I knew, it was always 12 nex and never forge nex. Or nex forge for that matter unless if you take into consideration this new upgrade kinda build P has been using lately. But still, the forge always came after the core was planted down.
On June 12 2011 07:48 DMXD wrote: I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this.
Just to ask, when did PvT fast nex have a forge with it? As far as I knew, it was always 12 nex and never forge nex. Or nex forge for that matter unless if you take into consideration this new upgrade kinda build P has been using lately. But still, the forge always came after the core was planted down.
no he's saying IF someone were to go forge fe it would get u super behind a rax/command opening. Someone was suggesting to go forge fe for some reason i can't recall
On June 12 2011 07:48 DMXD wrote: I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this.
Just to ask, when did PvT fast nex have a forge with it? As far as I knew, it was always 12 nex and never forge nex. Or nex forge for that matter unless if you take into consideration this new upgrade kinda build P has been using lately. But still, the forge always came after the core was planted down.
no he's saying IF someone were to go forge fe it would get u super behind a rax/command opening. Someone was suggesting to go forge fe for some reason i can't recall
Oh.. okay I saw that post.
Anyway, I don't think scouts will find their place. I think what's overlooked here is how it is supposed to fit into the flow of the game.
It is quite silly to me to be getting a scout just to counter dropship play, which is much more easily accomplished with goons. And I really can't wrap my mind around how scouts can work in PvZ. Unless you have such a significant advantage, massing scouts won't accomplish much. First you will most likely have to make scouts first over corsairs, which is so easily destroyed by scourge because it moves so slowly.
And in PvP... delayed reaver or storm tech is lethal and you will most probably get contained at best and be stuck on 1 base.
That's a very old trick (application of cloning) also, mostly known from Boxer games. But these days going ghosts in TvT is slightly dubious. The list of transitions in TvT is long and incredibly gas heavy. Tanks -> dropship/tank -> BC/tank or wraith/tank. Basically if your opponent has any semblance of ground, the ghosts will be incredibly vulnerable and you can't employ them offensively. It's true if the opponent missteps and goes too far, you can catch a bunch of BCs out of position, but in general it's not much more than a desperate drawing technique: Even if you are getting outclassed to where your opponent has gone BCs and you haven't, a set of upgraded ghosts costs less gas relatively and their presence can make the guy with BCs want to be a little more careful (i.e., passive).
Anyway, I had another idea about the scout. If P goes 2-base arb and T is doing a fast vessel (adding a wraith to snipe obs) to answer that, P has some vulnerabilities in that an arb can die to a wraith. But vessels and wraiths both die quite easily to scouts. I think this is an application to actually think about (not like people earlier spamming about massing scouts) because in this case you at least wouldn't actually consider using a corsair for the same thing. A scout is great against a single wraith or vessel here and there; mass sairs are smarter against (rather, to deter) mass Z air.
So even if the guy is sieged up and forcing your dragoons to stay back while he moves in with his vessel to see if he can land an EMP on your arbiter, you can show him the scout and it will get a few shots off while the vessel runs away, leaving the arbiters safe. A lot of free EMP shots on arbiters could just be solved by better management, but even so, a new factor like having a scout in the mix reminds me of scourging the critical first vessels in ZvT.
On June 14 2011 02:09 oBlade wrote: That's a very old trick (application of cloning) also, mostly known from Boxer games. But these days going ghosts in TvT is slightly dubious. The list of transitions in TvT is long and incredibly gas heavy. Tanks -> dropship/tank -> BC/tank or wraith/tank. Basically if your opponent has any semblance of ground, the ghosts will be incredibly vulnerable and you can't employ them offensively. It's true if the opponent missteps and goes too far, you can catch a bunch of BCs out of position, but in general it's not much more than a desperate drawing technique: Even if you are getting outclassed to where your opponent has gone BCs and you haven't, a set of upgraded ghosts costs less gas relatively and their presence can make the guy with BCs want to be a little more careful (i.e., passive).
Anyway, I had another idea about the scout. If P goes 2-base arb and T is doing a fast vessel (adding a wraith to snipe obs) to answer that, P has some vulnerabilities in that an arb can die to a wraith. But vessels and wraiths both die quite easily to scouts. I think this is an application to actually think about (not like people earlier spamming about massing scouts) because in this case you at least wouldn't actually consider using a corsair for the same thing. A scout is great against a single wraith or vessel here and there; mass sairs are smarter against (rather, to deter) mass Z air.
So even if the guy is sieged up and forcing your dragoons to stay back while he moves in with his vessel to see if he can land an EMP on your arbiter, you can show him the scout and it will get a few shots off while the vessel runs away, leaving the arbiters safe. A lot of free EMP shots on arbiters could just be solved by better management, but even so, a new factor like having a scout in the mix reminds me of scourging the critical first vessels in ZvT.
The problem is that if you're building a scout from a stargate, that same stargate can't be making an arbiter, and Protoss need as many arbiters with saved up energy for recalls/statis as possible...arbiters take 160 seconds to build while the scout is about 80. This simply costs way too much time.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
Exactly what do you disagree with? DWeb wasn't used primarily because of how out-of-the-way Protosses had to go to use DWeb if they were going standard (standard being only getting 3 Corsairs, and a big ground army), but with Corsair/Reaver/Carrier (which maps do not favor currently, not to mention it is insanely hard to pull off) it was a very natural extension to simply upgrade DWeb (which they did). Now that +1 Corsairs are featured in every PvZ, it would be pretty natural for Protosses to simply upgrade DWeb if they can preserve their Corsairs well.
The problem being is, IF they can preserve their Corsairs well. Most Protoss progamers end up losing almost all their Corsairs by the mid-late game, so of course it's not worth it to spend money on the Fleet Beacon and research DWeb. But since progamers are always using Corsairs now, I feel that Corsair control/preservation will reach a very strong finesse (like Terrans and EMP, way better at it now than before) that will justify forays into DWeb tactics.
Incidentally, Kal also had notably used DWeb in a couple of PvZs earlier this year. Then he fell into a huge slump lol
well, i disagree with several things. The first is the idea that Dwebb is a new idea to modern PvZ that will soon be utilized in pro play. +1 Corsair play (without reavers) has been played for almost 2 years now ever since 5 hatch hydra started crushing Sair Reaver. Some Protoss builds including the then-decent Jangbi would pump corsairs off of 2 stargates. And yet there have been very few games with Dwebb usage (though i have to admit i didnt watch the Kal games ur referring to).
Dwebb's decline in popularity goes further back imo than modern PvZ. Even during sair/reaver days, players suddenly just stopped upgrading Dwebb. I don't know why it happened, but after Andromeda I can't recall a single map where sair reaver was played with Dwebb.
I don't know why Dwebb suddenly stopped getting popular. But the "natural"-ness of Dwebb in today's PvZ is not a new thing. It should have been natural for the past year and a half or so, yet protoss seems to be deliberately skipping it.
... +1 corsair play didn't get massively popular until this season, not even a full year yet. Unless Protosses opened up Sair/Reaver or Sair/DT, Protosses usually never got any more than 3 Corsairs because they felt the delay in Templar tech was unnecessary (4 Gate 2 Archon, later 2 Gateway +1 Speedlot). 2Stargate builds were not unique to Jangbi either, and were usually part of a Reaver or DT build. And I never said DWeb was a new idea in PvZ, I am fully aware of their usage throughout the years.
There were two different followups to Sair/Reaver - Sair/Reaver/Carrier, or Splashtoss army composition (Dragoon/Zealot/Templar/Reaver). In the first followup, Protosses already had about 2 control groups of Corsairs complementing the Carriers/Reaver, and DWeb was necessary to allow the Reaver/Carrier army to engage the Zerg, In the second followup, the Corsairs were mostly either killed off or simply put aside to guard against doom drops by the time Protoss amassed the Splashtoss army, so Protosses saw no need to get DWeb.
It is only recently that critical mass +1 corsairs have been regularly featured in almost every PvZ, and Protosses (except for Bisu) still do not have the Corsair control/preservation to justify DWeb costs. But because massed corsairs are being regularly used now, inevitably the control level will increase too, and when 6+ +1 Corsairs being still alive in the mid-late become a regular sight, I feel that DWeb tactics will appear soon afterwards, at least as periodically as Queen usage.
And I remember Stork attempting a 12nex build w/ 1Gate/Forge to hold the expo from a bunker rush. But then Mind (i think) hit the perfect timing to break it.. but it works hilariously well in the lower level when your opponent sends out like 5+ SCVs before seeing the cannon (and then hesitating lol)
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
Another thing that Protoss needs to abuse is Hallucinations. Fake all in with units to force the enemy to go out of position but then flank their army or something.
Scouts could used if you try to mass them like Carriers because they are made faster and don't require the minerals to produce interceptors.
0:13:15 - 0:16:00 Lx tried it before to counter early mutalisk harass but got overruned by Hydras since his Storm research was delayed.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
Another thing that Protoss needs to abuse is Hallucinations. Fake all in with units to force the enemy to go out of position but then flank their army or something.
Scouts could used if you try to mass them like Carriers because they are made faster and don't require the minerals to produce interceptors.
On June 14 2011 02:09 oBlade wrote: That's a very old trick (application of cloning) also, mostly known from Boxer games. But these days going ghosts in TvT is slightly dubious. The list of transitions in TvT is long and incredibly gas heavy. Tanks -> dropship/tank -> BC/tank or wraith/tank. Basically if your opponent has any semblance of ground, the ghosts will be incredibly vulnerable and you can't employ them offensively. It's true if the opponent missteps and goes too far, you can catch a bunch of BCs out of position, but in general it's not much more than a desperate drawing technique: Even if you are getting outclassed to where your opponent has gone BCs and you haven't, a set of upgraded ghosts costs less gas relatively and their presence can make the guy with BCs want to be a little more careful (i.e., passive).
Anyway, I had another idea about the scout. If P goes 2-base arb and T is doing a fast vessel (adding a wraith to snipe obs) to answer that, P has some vulnerabilities in that an arb can die to a wraith. But vessels and wraiths both die quite easily to scouts. I think this is an application to actually think about (not like people earlier spamming about massing scouts) because in this case you at least wouldn't actually consider using a corsair for the same thing. A scout is great against a single wraith or vessel here and there; mass sairs are smarter against (rather, to deter) mass Z air.
So even if the guy is sieged up and forcing your dragoons to stay back while he moves in with his vessel to see if he can land an EMP on your arbiter, you can show him the scout and it will get a few shots off while the vessel runs away, leaving the arbiters safe. A lot of free EMP shots on arbiters could just be solved by better management, but even so, a new factor like having a scout in the mix reminds me of scourging the critical first vessels in ZvT.
The problem is that if you're building a scout from a stargate, that same stargate can't be making an arbiter, and Protoss need as many arbiters with saved up energy for recalls/statis as possible...arbiters take 160 seconds to build while the scout is about 80. This simply costs way too much time.
That would normally be right, for instance in the case of 1 basing vs Z when you can get a first corsair at a timing that can barely keep you even in the game or a scout that might just lead to you dying. But when you tech to arbs, you have a small window when the stargate is idling while your tribunal is building. Of course even at that, this requires knowing that the other guy is doing vessel/wraith from 2 CCs. Otherwise your scout won't be able to do much except... scout... for ninja expos. Your observers will mostly still be trying to keep the map clear of mines. At this point, the objection would be that on 2 bases you will be a little tight on resources from buying all the expensive stuff that leads up to arbs to begin with. The time is there if you read your opponent's build right.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
Exactly what do you disagree with? DWeb wasn't used primarily because of how out-of-the-way Protosses had to go to use DWeb if they were going standard (standard being only getting 3 Corsairs, and a big ground army), but with Corsair/Reaver/Carrier (which maps do not favor currently, not to mention it is insanely hard to pull off) it was a very natural extension to simply upgrade DWeb (which they did). Now that +1 Corsairs are featured in every PvZ, it would be pretty natural for Protosses to simply upgrade DWeb if they can preserve their Corsairs well.
The problem being is, IF they can preserve their Corsairs well. Most Protoss progamers end up losing almost all their Corsairs by the mid-late game, so of course it's not worth it to spend money on the Fleet Beacon and research DWeb. But since progamers are always using Corsairs now, I feel that Corsair control/preservation will reach a very strong finesse (like Terrans and EMP, way better at it now than before) that will justify forays into DWeb tactics.
Incidentally, Kal also had notably used DWeb in a couple of PvZs earlier this year. Then he fell into a huge slump lol
well, i disagree with several things. The first is the idea that Dwebb is a new idea to modern PvZ that will soon be utilized in pro play. +1 Corsair play (without reavers) has been played for almost 2 years now ever since 5 hatch hydra started crushing Sair Reaver. Some Protoss builds including the then-decent Jangbi would pump corsairs off of 2 stargates. And yet there have been very few games with Dwebb usage (though i have to admit i didnt watch the Kal games ur referring to).
Dwebb's decline in popularity goes further back imo than modern PvZ. Even during sair/reaver days, players suddenly just stopped upgrading Dwebb. I don't know why it happened, but after Andromeda I can't recall a single map where sair reaver was played with Dwebb.
I don't know why Dwebb suddenly stopped getting popular. But the "natural"-ness of Dwebb in today's PvZ is not a new thing. It should have been natural for the past year and a half or so, yet protoss seems to be deliberately skipping it.
... +1 corsair play didn't get massively popular until this season, not even a full year yet. Unless Protosses opened up Sair/Reaver or Sair/DT, Protosses usually never got any more than 3 Corsairs because they felt the delay in Templar tech was unnecessary (4 Gate 2 Archon, later 2 Gateway +1 Speedlot). 2Stargate builds were not unique to Jangbi either, and were usually part of a Reaver or DT build. And I never said DWeb was a new idea in PvZ, I am fully aware of their usage throughout the years.
There were two different followups to Sair/Reaver - Sair/Reaver/Carrier, or Splashtoss army composition (Dragoon/Zealot/Templar/Reaver). In the first followup, Protosses already had about 2 control groups of Corsairs complementing the Carriers/Reaver, and DWeb was necessary to allow the Reaver/Carrier army to engage the Zerg, In the second followup, the Corsairs were mostly either killed off or simply put aside to guard against doom drops by the time Protoss amassed the Splashtoss army, so Protosses saw no need to get DWeb.
It is only recently that critical mass +1 corsairs have been regularly featured in almost every PvZ, and Protosses (except for Bisu) still do not have the Corsair control/preservation to justify DWeb costs. But because massed corsairs are being regularly used now, inevitably the control level will increase too, and when 6+ +1 Corsairs being still alive in the mid-late become a regular sight, I feel that DWeb tactics will appear soon afterwards, at least as periodically as Queen usage.
And I remember Stork attempting a 12nex build w/ 1Gate/Forge to hold the expo from a bunker rush. But then Mind (i think) hit the perfect timing to break it.. but it works hilariously well in the lower level when your opponent sends out like 5+ SCVs before seeing the cannon (and then hesitating lol)
i see.. so when i asked why did protoss stop getting Dwebb after Andromeda, is it cuz they all went splashtoss instead of reaver carrier follow up? Does that also imply that every game I see Dwebb is a game where the Toss attempted to go Reaver/Carrier? If so, then the starcraft ive been watching for the past 2+ years makes a lot more sense now. thanks for that.
On June 12 2011 02:10 k.taeyang wrote: Scout is slightly useful when it has the speed+range upgrade and only if used as an anti-air...
It's slow It costs a lot of money It takes a lot of time to build one And it's weak...
That's why it's the most useless unit in BW
my point of view is exactly the same as k. taeyang. Against T: terran can mass tank/vol/gol. scout does almost nothing Against Zerg: might be a little useful against muta and overlord, but i would MUCH rather prefer sairs with web
i dont see why protoss cant do a 2 stargate scout build like the terran 2 port wraith its a bit more expensive, but scouts have shield regen and possibly with the upgrades at the fleet becon, could be amazing, and ya id also love to see distortion web used in pvt
On June 18 2011 02:10 Skelephile wrote: i dont see why protoss cant do a 2 stargate scout build like the terran 2 port wraith its a bit more expensive, but scouts have shield regen and possibly with the upgrades at the fleet becon, could be amazing, and ya id also love to see distortion web used in pvt
Reason highlighted. Also it takes a bunch longer. While you're getting up your scouts, you'd get stomped by hydras/mutas/lings. (Also Terran can just throw up rines/bunkers/turrets if Zerg all-ins, while photon cannons are less effective.)
On June 17 2011 19:47 cursor wrote: Honestly though, Blizzard should do one last patch for the Protoss.
Give the Scout energy, and a spell like Force Field... something to help balance things out a bit. Wall out those Lings super easy!!
Or just undo the storm nerf so it actually kills big things.
On June 13 2011 09:00 dukethegold wrote: I used to experiment with Mindcontrol a lot.
From what I recall, when you mindcontrol a unit, you gain all the spells of the MC'ed unit.
If you MC an enemy high templar with the amulet and stormed researched, all of your templars will instantly receive those upgrades for free.
If you MC a crackling, you will receive the adrenaline gland upgrade, assuming you have lings.
However, the attack/defense upgrades will not be transferred.
When you MC a unit of different race, it will be outside of your Protoss supply. If you MC a drone or SCV, you can build a Zerg or Terran army of your own as they will have their own supplies.
If you MC'ed a caster, it will retain all of its energy.
A Dark Archon will lose all of its shield the instant it casts MC, leaving it with 25hp.
Don't know if you have tried this - you can tame all the little neutral dudes with MC aswell, like Ursadons and such. :D
i dont watch a lot of BW, i came from wc3 to sc2, but ive always loved the game, and have watched many OSL and MSL and pro league games, played fastest possible, and gone 0-20 on iccup. and tbh, i only seem to see ZvT, maybe the occasional ZvZ TvT, or P match up, but ive only really watched P in old vods. would love to see some P players doing better : ) PvT is a great match up imo, and from the little of what ive seen (TSL1 and 2 had a bit, but havent seen much from korea), so is PvZ
I think Dweb still should be used in a PvZ situation where P goes 2gate sairs and Z has gone greedy with simcity and static defense to defend an early expo.
I forget what game it was, but I saw this situation and I couldn't believe P refused to go Dweb
EDIT: found it
M18M drops Templar Archives and Robotics at around the 12 minute mark of the game (15 in the VOD). He uses them to go for DT drops, which prove little effective, and also preparing HTs for a frontal attack. His frontal attack fails to pierce for a combination of reasons - not enough observers (just bad gameplay) and because storms don't do anything against the massive amount of spaced out sunkens Soulkey had there (the interesting bit)*. Having failed, he drops a support bay sometime during that attack and has his first reavers around the 15-16 minute mark. However, by now Soulkey is firmly established in his early 4gas hive and M18M is too behind to accumulate the protoss tech ball needed, working on a late 3rd min-only and taking a very late 4th in desperation to catch up.
My beef is that I think that Dweb would work PERFECTLY in a situation like this, where Z is reliant primarily on static and semi-static (lurker) defense to protect a precariously greedy early 3rd/4th. When you're pumping sairs out 2gates, you cannot possibly tell me it isn't worth it to go Fleet Beacon and research web, as opposed to throwing down a Robo/Archives/Support Bay and investing in shuttle DT drops that are easily shut down, HT storms that don't work against sunkens, and reavers that are too little too late.
sorry for the wall of theorycraft, I always wanted to make a thread about this game in Strategy but I was too lazy to and this topic brought up the debate that I've been keeping to myself.
*well he also got flanked pretty damn hard by a gaggle of lurkerling but FOCUS LETS TALK ABOUT DWEB
On June 13 2011 09:00 dukethegold wrote: I used to experiment with Mindcontrol a lot.
From what I recall, when you mindcontrol a unit, you gain all the spells of the MC'ed unit.
If you MC an enemy high templar with the amulet and stormed researched, all of your templars will instantly receive those upgrades for free.
If you MC a crackling, you will receive the adrenaline gland upgrade, assuming you have lings.
However, the attack/defense upgrades will not be transferred.
When you MC a unit of different race, it will be outside of your Protoss supply. If you MC a drone or SCV, you can build a Zerg or Terran army of your own as they will have their own supplies.
If you MC'ed a caster, it will retain all of its energy.
A Dark Archon will lose all of its shield the instant it casts MC, leaving it with 25hp.
Don't know if you have tried this - you can tame all the little neutral dudes with MC aswell, like Ursadons and such. :D
They still wiggle/wander around though!
Hmm. Are there any pro games where MC is used in any of these ways (particularly on non-toss?)
It is sad when the supposedly anti-capital ship unit is demoted as a quick-fix desperation unit, that is, if you go have star and plan to go carrier/arbiter and suddenly you see your opponent rushing towards you, cancel and make scouts LOL. Stork learned this the hard way losing the recent OSL to Fantasy. On the other hand, scouts are great in UMS, especially Fastest Maps where you dedicate a 200/200 Scout army when your opponent tries to get Carrier/BC heavy. As it is, the Scout has no role in BW. Its upgrades are astronomic, its role so specific but unclear, and there are better units that do the job. BM Scout still rocks though!
With its very low cost, almost instantaneous building time, lightning fast speed, cheap useful upgrades, Einsteinesque AI and high damage output against ground units I wonder why the Scout isn't used more. Like for example today in
On June 21 2011 22:17 Fenrax wrote: With its very low cost, almost instantaneous building time, lightning fast speed, cheap useful upgrades, Einsteinesque AI and high damage output against ground units I wonder why the Scout isn't used more. Like for example today in
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
Probes being better at mining actually balances the game. If you think about it, Protoss units are more expensive than T's or Z's units at the same level/tier.
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
Liquipedia is pretty good; those gifs really highlight what a big difference 18% is
The wiki gif is only true for that patch, take the patch below the one being mined and you will notice the zerg is faster (test it yourself). You will notice the drone does a turn around and doesn't even need to decelerate, whereas the probe will. However, for most patches, wiki is right and the probe is fastest. I remember there was a guide on which minerals are best to mine for a certain race on maps like BGH and python, despite how close they may seem.
I also recall someone said mining speed of a particular mineral patch is not based on workers but the size of the cc/nexus/hatch, although I am unsure of its validity.
it all depends about efectivity i mean why would i spend a ton of money on something that doesnt bring me any advantage whatsoever, instead i spend on little cheap one that are effective. thats what make units like the scout useless, his benefits are very little compared to cheaper things that does the same thing in major quantities.
On June 12 2011 16:08 c3rberUs wrote: The fact with using scouts is that they are too costly for their effectiveness. The 275 mins and 125 gas could be used somewhere else and get better results. We should ask blizz to patch the game and make scouts viable .
If they will really patch it, (one can dream) IMO they should make the AtG more powerful and the AtA less powerful so as not to overlap with the sair and speed upg. researched already.
Would the players, KeSPA, and whoever else is in charge allow and/or agree on a "patch" for BW?
Technically they could edit the maps and edit the stats of the scout through Staredit (you can make it so Scouts start with the speed upgrade for example).
The only issue (well tediousness) with doing that is that this needs to be done for every single map and there needs to be no errors (all maps needs to be checked so that they have the right settings).
The downside is that the BW has had not a single gameplay patch/change ever 2001(patch 1.08 was last balance one right?) so that means that'd be it could be really strange since the game has been played the same for nearly ten years.
Obviously if they ever agree on changes for the game, the Scout seems like a good candidate for a buff (either it starts with speed upgrade already, builds slightly faster, costs slightly less, deals more ground damage, etc).
___________
Though in terms of a patch, I wouldn't mind if Blizzard added new interface options for observers(they'd also need to add actual observer slots) like in SC2 (since resources and supply have been covered already, how about things like tech progress and things like that)? The question is how hard would it be to implement and/or if it's even possible with the SC engine.
Edit - How do they make resources/supply show up on the bottom right corner sometimes in Korean broadcasts? Program that runs in the background that manages to obtain those values from SC then overlays them over the screen?
You know, before i actually saw what reaver corsair was, i assumed you used the corsairs D-Webs to neutralize like sunkens and hydra balls while u dance reaver around. So i definately think D-Webs will be the next leap in protoss fighting; i hope Bisu leads it ^^
On June 29 2011 15:42 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: You know, before i actually saw what reaver corsair was, i assumed you used the corsairs D-Webs to neutralize like sunkens and hydra balls while u dance reaver around. So i definately think D-Webs will be the next leap in protoss fighting; i hope Bisu leads it ^^
People have been doing this for a long time w/ sair-reaver. It's just that people don't go hardcore sair reaver that often anymore. If you go all Sair-reaver and don't mass transition into gateway units, you can get a fleet beacon then transition to carriers too. One example of sair-reaver getting to dwebs is Nal_ra vs Savior @ blizzcon iirc.
On June 13 2011 02:17 gostunv wrote: Ive always thought its harder for Toss players to be consistently good at the game because they have a smaller margin of error. Their units costs more than the other races so a single mistake is more costly than when others make a mistake. It hurts a Toss lot more if they lose a shuttle to scourge with 2 reavers in it compared to a Terran who loses a dropship to scourge with two tanks in it. Of course this is theoretically speaking near the mid game.
Also against T, vults and tanks are so much more cost effective than toss units.
These are reasons why I think Bisu is so good at vZ with his great multi-tasking. He can keep crucial mistakes to a minimum.
All IMO obviously.
Remember, terrans and zergs workers are 20% less efficient than those of protoss, so terrans get hurt more if they lose stuff than protoss
On June 29 2011 15:42 OSM.OneManArmy wrote: You know, before i actually saw what reaver corsair was, i assumed you used the corsairs D-Webs to neutralize like sunkens and hydra balls while u dance reaver around. So i definately think D-Webs will be the next leap in protoss fighting; i hope Bisu leads it ^^
The Chinese player Legend actually uses D-Webs in PvT. I'll see if I can find VODs/Replays later.
Only thing Scouts are useful for is taking down Battlecruisers or Carriers, i don't see them doing anything else well. They MIGHT work as a transition from a FE vs a mech terran with no anti air, like making 2-5 scouts to keep him on his backfoot then macroing up a ground army.
I dont know, i feel that the time taken to make 2-5 scouts and the time it takes for them to get to his base is enough for him to move his backfoot in front of our face already :p
EPT![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/1/19/Scout_SC2_Rend1.JPEG)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/a4/Minerals.gif)
275 Mineral![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/2/2e/Vespene-protoss.gif)
125 Gas![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/a4/Buildtime_protoss.gif)
80![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/8/86/Supply-protoss.gif)
3![[image loading]](http://www.funcoolavatars.com/avatars/Games/Starcraft/Scout-Fighter.gif)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/e/e2/Icon_Hitpoints.png){kind=icon}
150 hp![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/8/82/Icon_Shields.png){kind=icon}
100 shield![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/5/5e/Icon_Armor.png){kind=icon}
0 Armor![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/2/2a/Scout_SC2_Head1.jpg)
. I also used dark archons in almost every pvz that hits late game. feedback vs defilers and maelstrom vs ultra ling is amazingly cost effective, and because of the range of these spells the darchon rarely dies.![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/6/69/Scout.png)
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51844/scoutstory/scoutstory03.png)
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