On June 12 2011 07:48 DMXD wrote: I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this.
Just to ask, when did PvT fast nex have a forge with it? As far as I knew, it was always 12 nex and never forge nex. Or nex forge for that matter unless if you take into consideration this new upgrade kinda build P has been using lately. But still, the forge always came after the core was planted down.
no he's saying IF someone were to go forge fe it would get u super behind a rax/command opening. Someone was suggesting to go forge fe for some reason i can't recall
On June 12 2011 07:48 DMXD wrote: I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this.
Just to ask, when did PvT fast nex have a forge with it? As far as I knew, it was always 12 nex and never forge nex. Or nex forge for that matter unless if you take into consideration this new upgrade kinda build P has been using lately. But still, the forge always came after the core was planted down.
no he's saying IF someone were to go forge fe it would get u super behind a rax/command opening. Someone was suggesting to go forge fe for some reason i can't recall
Oh.. okay I saw that post.
Anyway, I don't think scouts will find their place. I think what's overlooked here is how it is supposed to fit into the flow of the game.
It is quite silly to me to be getting a scout just to counter dropship play, which is much more easily accomplished with goons. And I really can't wrap my mind around how scouts can work in PvZ. Unless you have such a significant advantage, massing scouts won't accomplish much. First you will most likely have to make scouts first over corsairs, which is so easily destroyed by scourge because it moves so slowly.
And in PvP... delayed reaver or storm tech is lethal and you will most probably get contained at best and be stuck on 1 base.
That's a very old trick (application of cloning) also, mostly known from Boxer games. But these days going ghosts in TvT is slightly dubious. The list of transitions in TvT is long and incredibly gas heavy. Tanks -> dropship/tank -> BC/tank or wraith/tank. Basically if your opponent has any semblance of ground, the ghosts will be incredibly vulnerable and you can't employ them offensively. It's true if the opponent missteps and goes too far, you can catch a bunch of BCs out of position, but in general it's not much more than a desperate drawing technique: Even if you are getting outclassed to where your opponent has gone BCs and you haven't, a set of upgraded ghosts costs less gas relatively and their presence can make the guy with BCs want to be a little more careful (i.e., passive).
Anyway, I had another idea about the scout. If P goes 2-base arb and T is doing a fast vessel (adding a wraith to snipe obs) to answer that, P has some vulnerabilities in that an arb can die to a wraith. But vessels and wraiths both die quite easily to scouts. I think this is an application to actually think about (not like people earlier spamming about massing scouts) because in this case you at least wouldn't actually consider using a corsair for the same thing. A scout is great against a single wraith or vessel here and there; mass sairs are smarter against (rather, to deter) mass Z air.
So even if the guy is sieged up and forcing your dragoons to stay back while he moves in with his vessel to see if he can land an EMP on your arbiter, you can show him the scout and it will get a few shots off while the vessel runs away, leaving the arbiters safe. A lot of free EMP shots on arbiters could just be solved by better management, but even so, a new factor like having a scout in the mix reminds me of scourging the critical first vessels in ZvT.
On June 14 2011 02:09 oBlade wrote: That's a very old trick (application of cloning) also, mostly known from Boxer games. But these days going ghosts in TvT is slightly dubious. The list of transitions in TvT is long and incredibly gas heavy. Tanks -> dropship/tank -> BC/tank or wraith/tank. Basically if your opponent has any semblance of ground, the ghosts will be incredibly vulnerable and you can't employ them offensively. It's true if the opponent missteps and goes too far, you can catch a bunch of BCs out of position, but in general it's not much more than a desperate drawing technique: Even if you are getting outclassed to where your opponent has gone BCs and you haven't, a set of upgraded ghosts costs less gas relatively and their presence can make the guy with BCs want to be a little more careful (i.e., passive).
Anyway, I had another idea about the scout. If P goes 2-base arb and T is doing a fast vessel (adding a wraith to snipe obs) to answer that, P has some vulnerabilities in that an arb can die to a wraith. But vessels and wraiths both die quite easily to scouts. I think this is an application to actually think about (not like people earlier spamming about massing scouts) because in this case you at least wouldn't actually consider using a corsair for the same thing. A scout is great against a single wraith or vessel here and there; mass sairs are smarter against (rather, to deter) mass Z air.
So even if the guy is sieged up and forcing your dragoons to stay back while he moves in with his vessel to see if he can land an EMP on your arbiter, you can show him the scout and it will get a few shots off while the vessel runs away, leaving the arbiters safe. A lot of free EMP shots on arbiters could just be solved by better management, but even so, a new factor like having a scout in the mix reminds me of scourging the critical first vessels in ZvT.
The problem is that if you're building a scout from a stargate, that same stargate can't be making an arbiter, and Protoss need as many arbiters with saved up energy for recalls/statis as possible...arbiters take 160 seconds to build while the scout is about 80. This simply costs way too much time.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
Exactly what do you disagree with? DWeb wasn't used primarily because of how out-of-the-way Protosses had to go to use DWeb if they were going standard (standard being only getting 3 Corsairs, and a big ground army), but with Corsair/Reaver/Carrier (which maps do not favor currently, not to mention it is insanely hard to pull off) it was a very natural extension to simply upgrade DWeb (which they did). Now that +1 Corsairs are featured in every PvZ, it would be pretty natural for Protosses to simply upgrade DWeb if they can preserve their Corsairs well.
The problem being is, IF they can preserve their Corsairs well. Most Protoss progamers end up losing almost all their Corsairs by the mid-late game, so of course it's not worth it to spend money on the Fleet Beacon and research DWeb. But since progamers are always using Corsairs now, I feel that Corsair control/preservation will reach a very strong finesse (like Terrans and EMP, way better at it now than before) that will justify forays into DWeb tactics.
Incidentally, Kal also had notably used DWeb in a couple of PvZs earlier this year. Then he fell into a huge slump lol
well, i disagree with several things. The first is the idea that Dwebb is a new idea to modern PvZ that will soon be utilized in pro play. +1 Corsair play (without reavers) has been played for almost 2 years now ever since 5 hatch hydra started crushing Sair Reaver. Some Protoss builds including the then-decent Jangbi would pump corsairs off of 2 stargates. And yet there have been very few games with Dwebb usage (though i have to admit i didnt watch the Kal games ur referring to).
Dwebb's decline in popularity goes further back imo than modern PvZ. Even during sair/reaver days, players suddenly just stopped upgrading Dwebb. I don't know why it happened, but after Andromeda I can't recall a single map where sair reaver was played with Dwebb.
I don't know why Dwebb suddenly stopped getting popular. But the "natural"-ness of Dwebb in today's PvZ is not a new thing. It should have been natural for the past year and a half or so, yet protoss seems to be deliberately skipping it.
... +1 corsair play didn't get massively popular until this season, not even a full year yet. Unless Protosses opened up Sair/Reaver or Sair/DT, Protosses usually never got any more than 3 Corsairs because they felt the delay in Templar tech was unnecessary (4 Gate 2 Archon, later 2 Gateway +1 Speedlot). 2Stargate builds were not unique to Jangbi either, and were usually part of a Reaver or DT build. And I never said DWeb was a new idea in PvZ, I am fully aware of their usage throughout the years.
There were two different followups to Sair/Reaver - Sair/Reaver/Carrier, or Splashtoss army composition (Dragoon/Zealot/Templar/Reaver). In the first followup, Protosses already had about 2 control groups of Corsairs complementing the Carriers/Reaver, and DWeb was necessary to allow the Reaver/Carrier army to engage the Zerg, In the second followup, the Corsairs were mostly either killed off or simply put aside to guard against doom drops by the time Protoss amassed the Splashtoss army, so Protosses saw no need to get DWeb.
It is only recently that critical mass +1 corsairs have been regularly featured in almost every PvZ, and Protosses (except for Bisu) still do not have the Corsair control/preservation to justify DWeb costs. But because massed corsairs are being regularly used now, inevitably the control level will increase too, and when 6+ +1 Corsairs being still alive in the mid-late become a regular sight, I feel that DWeb tactics will appear soon afterwards, at least as periodically as Queen usage.
And I remember Stork attempting a 12nex build w/ 1Gate/Forge to hold the expo from a bunker rush. But then Mind (i think) hit the perfect timing to break it.. but it works hilariously well in the lower level when your opponent sends out like 5+ SCVs before seeing the cannon (and then hesitating lol)
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
Another thing that Protoss needs to abuse is Hallucinations. Fake all in with units to force the enemy to go out of position but then flank their army or something.
Scouts could used if you try to mass them like Carriers because they are made faster and don't require the minerals to produce interceptors.
0:13:15 - 0:16:00 Lx tried it before to counter early mutalisk harass but got overruned by Hydras since his Storm research was delayed.
On June 12 2011 01:47 Xiphos wrote: I think that Protoss should utilize Dark Archons more in their games. In PvZ, kills defilers, stop Mutas and freeze mass lings. In PvT, mind control tanks to hit themselves. PvP, get a bigger army to increase the pop from 200 to 400.
Another thing that Protoss needs to abuse is Hallucinations. Fake all in with units to force the enemy to go out of position but then flank their army or something.
Scouts could used if you try to mass them like Carriers because they are made faster and don't require the minerals to produce interceptors.
On June 14 2011 02:09 oBlade wrote: That's a very old trick (application of cloning) also, mostly known from Boxer games. But these days going ghosts in TvT is slightly dubious. The list of transitions in TvT is long and incredibly gas heavy. Tanks -> dropship/tank -> BC/tank or wraith/tank. Basically if your opponent has any semblance of ground, the ghosts will be incredibly vulnerable and you can't employ them offensively. It's true if the opponent missteps and goes too far, you can catch a bunch of BCs out of position, but in general it's not much more than a desperate drawing technique: Even if you are getting outclassed to where your opponent has gone BCs and you haven't, a set of upgraded ghosts costs less gas relatively and their presence can make the guy with BCs want to be a little more careful (i.e., passive).
Anyway, I had another idea about the scout. If P goes 2-base arb and T is doing a fast vessel (adding a wraith to snipe obs) to answer that, P has some vulnerabilities in that an arb can die to a wraith. But vessels and wraiths both die quite easily to scouts. I think this is an application to actually think about (not like people earlier spamming about massing scouts) because in this case you at least wouldn't actually consider using a corsair for the same thing. A scout is great against a single wraith or vessel here and there; mass sairs are smarter against (rather, to deter) mass Z air.
So even if the guy is sieged up and forcing your dragoons to stay back while he moves in with his vessel to see if he can land an EMP on your arbiter, you can show him the scout and it will get a few shots off while the vessel runs away, leaving the arbiters safe. A lot of free EMP shots on arbiters could just be solved by better management, but even so, a new factor like having a scout in the mix reminds me of scourging the critical first vessels in ZvT.
The problem is that if you're building a scout from a stargate, that same stargate can't be making an arbiter, and Protoss need as many arbiters with saved up energy for recalls/statis as possible...arbiters take 160 seconds to build while the scout is about 80. This simply costs way too much time.
That would normally be right, for instance in the case of 1 basing vs Z when you can get a first corsair at a timing that can barely keep you even in the game or a scout that might just lead to you dying. But when you tech to arbs, you have a small window when the stargate is idling while your tribunal is building. Of course even at that, this requires knowing that the other guy is doing vessel/wraith from 2 CCs. Otherwise your scout won't be able to do much except... scout... for ninja expos. Your observers will mostly still be trying to keep the map clear of mines. At this point, the objection would be that on 2 bases you will be a little tight on resources from buying all the expensive stuff that leads up to arbs to begin with. The time is there if you read your opponent's build right.
On June 13 2011 10:26 iTzAnglory wrote: Corsairs definitely have potential if the mechanics were like in StarCraft 2 with autocast, but unfortunately it is not. It is definitely too difficult to micro Corsairs along with your army in late game.
with a tiny bit of practice, Progamers can utilize DWeb as efficiently as any other spell. Bisu's Sair/Reaver/Carrier is a good reference to DWeb being used extremely well, and some Chinese progamers have developed a Dragoon/Corsair PvT style. It's just most don't choose to use Corsairs because it's not really needed, although I believe as PvZ evolves and Protosses in general catch up to Bisu's level of Corsair control/preservation, we'll be seeing DWeb tactics being incorporated mid-late game.
nah dude i disagree with this. Dwebb is not a new concept at the professional level; it had its chance during the Sair/Reaver craze and was featured by several prominent players including Bisu. But pro players have deliberately chosen to not upgrade it since.
Exactly what do you disagree with? DWeb wasn't used primarily because of how out-of-the-way Protosses had to go to use DWeb if they were going standard (standard being only getting 3 Corsairs, and a big ground army), but with Corsair/Reaver/Carrier (which maps do not favor currently, not to mention it is insanely hard to pull off) it was a very natural extension to simply upgrade DWeb (which they did). Now that +1 Corsairs are featured in every PvZ, it would be pretty natural for Protosses to simply upgrade DWeb if they can preserve their Corsairs well.
The problem being is, IF they can preserve their Corsairs well. Most Protoss progamers end up losing almost all their Corsairs by the mid-late game, so of course it's not worth it to spend money on the Fleet Beacon and research DWeb. But since progamers are always using Corsairs now, I feel that Corsair control/preservation will reach a very strong finesse (like Terrans and EMP, way better at it now than before) that will justify forays into DWeb tactics.
Incidentally, Kal also had notably used DWeb in a couple of PvZs earlier this year. Then he fell into a huge slump lol
well, i disagree with several things. The first is the idea that Dwebb is a new idea to modern PvZ that will soon be utilized in pro play. +1 Corsair play (without reavers) has been played for almost 2 years now ever since 5 hatch hydra started crushing Sair Reaver. Some Protoss builds including the then-decent Jangbi would pump corsairs off of 2 stargates. And yet there have been very few games with Dwebb usage (though i have to admit i didnt watch the Kal games ur referring to).
Dwebb's decline in popularity goes further back imo than modern PvZ. Even during sair/reaver days, players suddenly just stopped upgrading Dwebb. I don't know why it happened, but after Andromeda I can't recall a single map where sair reaver was played with Dwebb.
I don't know why Dwebb suddenly stopped getting popular. But the "natural"-ness of Dwebb in today's PvZ is not a new thing. It should have been natural for the past year and a half or so, yet protoss seems to be deliberately skipping it.
... +1 corsair play didn't get massively popular until this season, not even a full year yet. Unless Protosses opened up Sair/Reaver or Sair/DT, Protosses usually never got any more than 3 Corsairs because they felt the delay in Templar tech was unnecessary (4 Gate 2 Archon, later 2 Gateway +1 Speedlot). 2Stargate builds were not unique to Jangbi either, and were usually part of a Reaver or DT build. And I never said DWeb was a new idea in PvZ, I am fully aware of their usage throughout the years.
There were two different followups to Sair/Reaver - Sair/Reaver/Carrier, or Splashtoss army composition (Dragoon/Zealot/Templar/Reaver). In the first followup, Protosses already had about 2 control groups of Corsairs complementing the Carriers/Reaver, and DWeb was necessary to allow the Reaver/Carrier army to engage the Zerg, In the second followup, the Corsairs were mostly either killed off or simply put aside to guard against doom drops by the time Protoss amassed the Splashtoss army, so Protosses saw no need to get DWeb.
It is only recently that critical mass +1 corsairs have been regularly featured in almost every PvZ, and Protosses (except for Bisu) still do not have the Corsair control/preservation to justify DWeb costs. But because massed corsairs are being regularly used now, inevitably the control level will increase too, and when 6+ +1 Corsairs being still alive in the mid-late become a regular sight, I feel that DWeb tactics will appear soon afterwards, at least as periodically as Queen usage.
And I remember Stork attempting a 12nex build w/ 1Gate/Forge to hold the expo from a bunker rush. But then Mind (i think) hit the perfect timing to break it.. but it works hilariously well in the lower level when your opponent sends out like 5+ SCVs before seeing the cannon (and then hesitating lol)
i see.. so when i asked why did protoss stop getting Dwebb after Andromeda, is it cuz they all went splashtoss instead of reaver carrier follow up? Does that also imply that every game I see Dwebb is a game where the Toss attempted to go Reaver/Carrier? If so, then the starcraft ive been watching for the past 2+ years makes a lot more sense now. thanks for that.
EPT
