EPTThe Hope of Protoss: The Scout - Page 4
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DMXD
United States4064 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
On June 12 2011 07:48 DMXD wrote: I also like to add that terrans these days like going barrack into Comand Center to soft counter fast next, going forge Fe put you really really behind against this. Not to mention that it could be raped with Siege Expo with a few extra marines, Tanks >>> Cannons | ||
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littlefighter
43 Posts
I asked because I had easy game going forge fe to dt on destination. But I see it can be easily soft countered by 1 rax expand. | ||
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zlosynus
Czech Republic339 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote: Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race? Yes, it's very old though, IntoTheRainbow vs Cloud, it was from like 2002 I think. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3807 Posts
The guy augmented his late game army by building a tank force to defend an important expansion. | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
Way too expensive, too much upgrades. Slow and pointless. -.- | ||
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littlefighter
43 Posts
On June 12 2011 08:31 zlosynus wrote: Btw. concerning mind control, is there a pro game in which protoss mind controls an SVC/drone and use it to produce units of another race? stork vs ggplay, stork made a hatchery | ||
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VGhost
United States3621 Posts
On June 12 2011 07:07 ctl4 wrote: In this age of mechanical skill/limits protoss users just dont have the tools to succeed and it shows in individual leagues. I think that if there ever was some change in protoss that could make a better game for brood war it would be a speed increase on the high templar, i am not talking about making it into a zergling or a vulture, but at the speed it goes now protoss users lose many games just by having high templars, which trail the rest of the protoss army, and subsequently get picked off. having a high templar, which is faster would I think make protoss a race that could compete at the pro level, and I think through this we would again see protoss finalists, and gold medal winners. Spread the word, it is a good idea. Stork and Movie have both made finals in the last two years. While it's true that more random Zergs have done that (Calm, Kwanro, Yarnc, EffOrt, Hydra, great), the number of Terrans who aren't Flash that have done this is... fantasy. So are Protoss and Terran really falling equally behind Zerg? It's possible - I'd be inclined to say that sAviOr-Jaedong in a real way ushered in the Age of Zerg in a way that Boxer-oov created an Age of Terran, but that's not a researched argument. What I just don't see significant reasons to worry about the balance of the game. The Zerg-wrecking machine that is Bisu (as well as the PvZ mad skills of Stork, Jangbi, free, Kal, Snow, etc. when any of them are on their game) show that there's not a balance issue that needs to be addressed... or at least if there is, I'm way short on ideas for things that could change without really causing other problems. (I'm going to assume that PvT remains mainly as usual - Protoss favored on an "average" map.) I think the more plausible argument is that we *happen* to have great talents in the Terran and Zerg races right now, and not so much in Protoss. Forget the six dragons, if Flash had played Protoss, with his dedication and drive we'd be looking at five titles and counting for a Protoss player. But in the real world, there simply isn't a "complete" Protoss on the scene atm. Stork is streaky and often has weak PvZ even when playing well; Bisu's closest to the total thing but his other matchups are nothing like as strong as his PvZ. JangBi imo was the Real Deal and New Hope... up until that crushing lost to Luxury. I think we're beginning to see his resurrection. What we are seeing is a lot of good young Protoss players. KHAN rookies Grape and Brave are both promising, as was M18M before leaving for ACE. Sun's got potential. Horang2 continues to improve. There may be others as well. | ||
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xarthaz
1704 Posts
On June 12 2011 07:07 ctl4 wrote: In this age of mechanical skill/limits protoss users just dont have the tools to succeed and it shows in individual leagues. I think that if there ever was some change in protoss that could make a better game for brood war it would be a speed increase on the high templar, i am not talking about making it into a zergling or a vulture, but at the speed it goes now protoss users lose many games just by having high templars, which trail the rest of the protoss army, and subsequently get picked off. having a high templar, which is faster would I think make protoss a race that could compete at the pro level, and I think through this we would again see protoss finalists, and gold medal winners. Spread the word, it is a good idea. Oh come on. P is fine. look at this seasons proleague. pvt is 55% pvz 50%. protoss is a great race with no weak matchup since the neo bisu build got popular. Compare this to Zerg who is 40% zvt and 50% zvp. and Terran 60% tvz 45% tvp. Clearly zerg has been the least capable race this season. Your suggestion would make zvp just as bad as zvt is. there is no need for one race to have two of the hardest matchups in the game, one is already enough  | ||
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d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
On June 12 2011 09:54 d_so wrote: u know how when a terran is way ahead in a tvt he builds 20 starports and masses wraiths? I want to see that in pvz In that case, mass corsair would still be better with disruption web. And as somebody else pointed out, cost for cost templar with storm can do that and better. I personally think if Scout starts with 10 speed (same as corsair), it will have greater usage. | ||
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Balfazar
Australia483 Posts
On June 12 2011 09:21 VGhost wrote: I think the more plausible argument is that we *happen* to have great talents in the Terran and Zerg races right now, and not so much in Protoss. Forget the six dragons, if Flash had played Protoss, with his dedication and drive we'd be looking at five titles and counting for a Protoss player. But in the real world, there simply isn't a "complete" Protoss on the scene atm. Stork is streaky and often has weak PvZ even when playing well; Bisu's closest to the total thing but his other matchups are nothing like as strong as his PvZ. JangBi imo was the Real Deal and New Hope... up until that crushing lost to Luxury. I think we're beginning to see his resurrection. What we are seeing is a lot of good young Protoss players. KHAN rookies Grape and Brave are both promising, as was M18M before leaving for ACE. Sun's got potential. Horang2 continues to improve. There may be others as well. The problem is that people have been making the 'not as good players' argument for years now, at some point you have to ask why there aren't as many? Is it because the mechanics of the Protoss aren't allowing them to emerge? As more time passes and the sample size grows larger and larger the random variance argument grows weaker and weaker. | ||
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mutantmagnet
United States3807 Posts
On June 12 2011 09:21 VGhost wrote: + Show Spoiler + Stork and Movie have both made finals in the last two years. While it's true that more random Zergs have done that (Calm, Kwanro, Yarnc, EffOrt, Hydra, great), the number of Terrans who aren't Flash that have done this is... fantasy. So are Protoss and Terran really falling equally behind Zerg? It's possible - I'd be inclined to say that sAviOr-Jaedong in a real way ushered in the Age of Zerg in a way that Boxer-oov created an Age of Terran, but that's not a researched argument. What I just don't see significant reasons to worry about the balance of the game. + Show Spoiler + The Zerg-wrecking machine that is Bisu (as well as the PvZ mad skills of Stork, Jangbi, free, Kal, Snow, etc. when any of them are on their game) show that there's not a balance issue that needs to be addressed... or at least if there is, I'm way short on ideas for things that could change without really causing other problems. (I'm going to assume that PvT remains mainly as usual - Protoss favored on an "average" map.) I think the more plausible argument is that we *happen* to have great talents in the Terran and Zerg races right now, and not so much in Protoss. Forget the six dragons, if Flash had played Protoss, with his dedication and drive we'd be looking at five titles and counting for a Protoss player. But in the real world, there simply isn't a "complete" Protoss on the scene atm. Stork is streaky and often has weak PvZ even when playing well; Bisu's closest to the total thing but his other matchups are nothing like as strong as his PvZ. JangBi imo was the Real Deal and New Hope... up until that crushing lost to Luxury. I think we're beginning to see his resurrection. What we are seeing is a lot of good young Protoss players. KHAN rookies Grape and Brave are both promising, as was M18M before leaving for ACE. Sun's got potential. Horang2 continues to improve. There may be others as well. This is part of a write up I've been making to argue the merit for balance changes through SC2BW mod. Keep in mind this is only a portion of my 12 page MS Word Doc write up. One must first look here (http://i.imgur.com/uxz19.png) to see the underlying influence of these changes. Evidence suggests each race has exactly one match up they are favored to win and one they are favored to lose. Evidence also suggests none of these races share the same favorable match ups. In aggregate this means while the races are out of balance, in the ecosystem of having all three races compete against each other, they are relatively balanced. There is one major caveat to both theories of whether or not the game still has balance issues and that is the quality of the champions represented by each race. OSL(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OnGameNet_Starleague_%28OSL%29#Medals_won_per_Player) MSL(http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/OnGameNet_Starleague_%28OSL%29#Medals_won_per_Player) The general trend is supposed to be Z>>>P, P>T, T>>Z in professional play but when we get to the finals interesting trends emerge. 14 wins for Terrans and 6 wins for Zerg at the championship level 4 wins for Protoss and 7 wins for Terrans at the championship level 7 wins for Zerg and 3 wins for Protoss to determine who was number one. Terrans were winning moreso in TvZ as expected but the majority of Zerg wins occurred after 2006 which suggest an adaptation has been occurring which bucks the trend of T>>Z Zerg has been winning more than Protoss when they meet in the finals as expected. Sadly the majority of Protoss wins came before patch 1.08 which is a very troubling fact. This fact is compounded by Protoss losing to Terrans more so than they were expected to be. The power gap between T and P is the smallest of the three when looking at all progamers but the gap exists. This has the consequence of saying on one hand the game offers all the races the tools needed to win because the races can win with unfavorable odds. On the other hand it also says that Protoss is underperforming. Protss has only become a champion once post patch 1.08 in their most unfavorable match up. Protoss have also fallen below expectations of the progamer group performance in proving they are favored to win against Terran. | ||
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FatkiddsLag
United States413 Posts
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
That "DADADADA" video makes me happy. The scout makes me happy. I love scouts xD | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
On June 12 2011 13:08 Balfazar wrote: The problem is that people have been making the 'not as good players' argument for years now, at some point you have to ask why there aren't as many? Is it because the mechanics of the Protoss aren't allowing them to emerge? As more time passes and the sample size grows larger and larger the random variance argument grows weaker and weaker. flash and jaedong are a huge problem for that argument. it's hard to talk about random variance when approximately half of the individual league finals slots for the past year+ are taken up by two players. if protoss has a problem it's that pvz is so hard - the protoss who you would expect to be the ones to win leagues usually get eliminated by zergs (i don't have any statistics to back this up but i imagine they exist). to me, bisu's pvz (71.19%, what the fucking fuck) is sufficient to show that the problem isn't that protoss is underpowered, it's that it has an extremely difficult (and slightly unfavorable) matchup against the most common race in the scene. If you gave every protoss bisu's pvz and removed flash and jaedong i'm sure we'd see more protoss starleague wins. | ||
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LastWish
2015 Posts
1. Feedback templars 2. Mind Control shuttles with reavers Sadly maelstrom is too weak of an ability against anything but zerg air. So in PvZ we can only see a lonely lategame DA feedbacking defilers... still I think reavers are more worth it but, if queens start to get used more it will become necessary. I think Bisu may incorporate webs into his corsair play on some special map, but I don't see it as game-breaking. Sorry scout there is not room for you... you are slow to make, too expensive, upgrades are hard to get, without the speed you are flying way too slow, you ground damage is poor, your low armor will get you easily killed by almost anything(including corsairs and valkyries). | ||
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Ribbon
United States5278 Posts
Also, the attacks sound like (are?) a machine gun and a missile, which aren't even protoss sound effects what the hell. It's way too low-tech for Protoss. It's be like marines using muskets, or Zerg.....I was going to "Zerglings absorbing people amoeba-style", but actually that'd be kind of awesome. | ||
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Trozz
Canada3457 Posts
It's so weak to ensnare though... Here's a scout story: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/51844/scoutstory/scoutstory03.png) | ||
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