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On April 25 2011 11:07 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 10:58 infinity2k9 wrote:
If he's practicing PvT for SWL it's still practice. Does he really need to heavily practice on the MSL maps to apply his skills on them? PvT doesn't particularly seem like a matchup where you need to do that... Dante's Peak for example is a pretty standardish map. His mistakes were just basic like not responding to a 1 Rax CC correctly, which he had a perfect counter for in SWL. Flash just macro'd off 3 bases and won, Bisu couldn't stop it.
So unless he's saying he needed to learn the maps so he could make cheeses or something then it does seem to be a bit of an excuse to me. I didn't seem their first game but i heard he found a proxy rax then failed to capitalize on his advantage. On the 2nd game he failed to respond to 1 rax CC. Both of these games would have played out the same on FS or any other standard map. I'm sure playing on a map repeatedly does help regardless but still, practice is practice. Have you been following PvTs this year? Bisu's response was the standard, used by Stork and others. 3 goon expand, robotics, then fast third when the natural is done. Except, on Dante's Peak, Bisu's pylon wall didn't really block the vultures, which raped all of Bisu's probes at his third, meaning...he didn't have a third. Thats what lost him the game, and it does have to do with map, cuz he couldn't make proper pylon walls on Dante's Peak to save his life. =.=
My question is why did he let the constant vulture harass at that base? He didn't fixed it till a long time later. Even if the problem is that he couldn't practice for the map but people usually don't let what happened to them happened twice(especially in the same game)
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On April 25 2011 11:07 renzy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 10:58 infinity2k9 wrote:
If he's practicing PvT for SWL it's still practice. Does he really need to heavily practice on the MSL maps to apply his skills on them? PvT doesn't particularly seem like a matchup where you need to do that... Dante's Peak for example is a pretty standardish map. His mistakes were just basic like not responding to a 1 Rax CC correctly, which he had a perfect counter for in SWL. Flash just macro'd off 3 bases and won, Bisu couldn't stop it.
So unless he's saying he needed to learn the maps so he could make cheeses or something then it does seem to be a bit of an excuse to me. I didn't seem their first game but i heard he found a proxy rax then failed to capitalize on his advantage. On the 2nd game he failed to respond to 1 rax CC. Both of these games would have played out the same on FS or any other standard map. I'm sure playing on a map repeatedly does help regardless but still, practice is practice. Have you been following PvTs this year? Bisu's response was the standard, used by Stork and others. 3 goon expand, robotics, then fast third when the natural is done. Except, on Dante's Peak, Bisu's pylon wall didn't really block the vultures, which raped all of Bisu's probes at his third, meaning...he didn't have a third. Thats what lost him the game, and it does have to do with map, cuz he couldn't make proper pylon walls on Dante's Peak to save his life. =.=
You're right.
Which is why I find it pretty weak that Bisu is blaming his lack of map preparation. Come on, you don't need an entire day to dedicate yourself to learning how to build a pylon wall, or punishing a scouted proxy. Cry more.
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Well Stork often goes reaver then the double expand, but nevertheless;
When his natural nexus is only just starting by the time Flash's natural CC is done, he's never going to beat Flash. It might work against a player with inferior TvP mechanics which is nearly everyone else; But not Flash. That's why he did a forward rax in the previous game even on a good PvT map. You can't just let him gain an economic advantage cause he'll smash you in the midgame. I'm pretty sure Bisu is aware of this but he fell behind right from the start cause of it. Taking the 12 o' clock as a vulture tight expo would have worked well too, you don't have to play it much to see that.
And yeah as people have said defending vulture harass is hardly a map specific thing, that's pretty much the only type of harass he's going to be doing at this point in the game.
Edit: just picking a Stork PvT at random, vs Sea who went 1 rax CC his nexus was much faster than Flash's.
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On April 25 2011 11:18 infinity2k9 wrote:
Well Stork often goes reaver then the double expand, but nevertheless;
When his natural nexus is only just starting by the time Flash's natural CC is done, he's never going to beat Flash. It might work against a player with inferior TvP mechanics which is nearly everyone else; But not Flash. That's why he did a forward rax in the previous game even on a good PvT map. You can't just let him gain an economic advantage cause he'll smash you in the midgame. I'm pretty sure Bisu is aware of this but he fell behind right from the start cause of it. Taking the 12 o' clock as a vulture tight expo would have worked well too, you don't have to play it much to see that.
And yeah as people have said defending vulture harass is hardly a map specific thing, that's pretty much the only type of harass he's going to be doing at this point in the game.
Um...what? Uh....I don't know what to say about "When his natural nexus is only just starting by the time Flash's natural CC is done...that's standard timing, and thats why protoss go for the fast third, so that they won't be economically behind...
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The games i checked it was much faster including games involving Flash. But it doesn't even matter if it is standard, cause i bet you Bisu is not going to win from that start to the game. That's why he did a more aggressive opening in SWL.
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Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Mine is that Bisu have a decent chance, even vs Flash. My little argument is that despite having lost as many probes as he did (well over 30 if you count all 5 Vults raids), he still came pretty close to winning at 1 point..
There are many aspects of game preparation that you and i dont know, so dont pretend that you do and say that "it should be easy to do XYZ", cos if it would be so easy, a player at near 80% win-rate over the season would probably have done it already.
Off the top of my head, i remember a Protoss that couldnt make a completely Ling-tight wall in Empire of the Sun when Winners League just rolled around, since PvZ nvr really happened there in Proleague. Shame i cant remember the players to point you to the match's VoD though.
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With all due respect, I think some people just glance at the words of an interview without really reading.
If I had one more day to focus on preparing, I might have also done better. I think my level of understanding of the maps had dropped some.
Bisu wanted a higher level of understanding of the maps.Doesn't matter if he was gonna exploit it for cheese or not, or simply to get a feel of where the Terran was going to attack from, fact of the matter is, he would have been more comfortable with one more day to focus on preparing for these specific maps. All there is to it.
Coach Park seems to consider the team leagues too much, so at the time I was a little resentful.
Hopefully this is an accurate translation, but it seems he's learning to move on. We should too. Sure, it's a veiled dig at Coach Park's focus on team leagues, but it's also a way of telling Coach Park that the individual leagues are important for his players too, and that of all his players it's Bisu who's the most hungry to win again. A Coach's job is not just to win but to take care of the mentality of his players (which is why I believe that Kingdom should really return to SKT because he seems to have understood Bisu quite well).
Being eliminated from the individual leagues is a pretty big blow to a player. If I could have started practicing early and prepared little by little, the results would (sic) definitely have been different.
I don't think this necessarily means that Bisu would beat Flash with more practice, but that he would have put up a better fight. More than any other S-Class player, Bisu needs some artificial confidence boost from mass practice. His mental fortitude has never been as strong as Flash/Jaedong (always been my impression, not really a fact).
Even though it sounds very much like an excuse, but thanks to SWL, I was exhausted. I had two days off after SWL finals. Because I had to rest, I couldn't practice much. Other players had ample time to practice, so I was envious of them.
Flash was not the only player in the group. Jaedong was there. Sea was there. Both had lots of time to practice (Sea even left lilsusie's birthday party early to practice haha). Sure, Flash had the same amount of time, but I feel that Flash isn't as dependent on practice as Bisu is. I remember several interviews where Flash said that if he wasn't playing BW he was mentally playing it all the time to come up with new builds, new timings, and new approaches to the game. I'm sure Bisu does that as well but again, he's more dependent on practice. He's not as intelligent as Flash.
I wanted to win twice today just to say that. Recently, I haven't been able to make it to a Ro8 or Ro4 anywhere, so I wanted to make it badly. To the fans who have supported me, I'm embarrassed to even show my face.
This is what really breaks a fan's heart, and this is what makes this entire interview something more than publicly complaining/whining/making excuses. Bisu understood that he hasn't shown success in an individual league for a long time. Individual leagues were what made Bisu the player he is. Remember Savior? Yeah. I'm pretty sure every single night he dreams about standing on the stage again, holding that trophy. Once you've tasted triumph you will crave it again and again like some kind of drug. So please understand Bisu. This interview is his (1) apology to the fans for being eliminated yet again (though this time it wasn't against inferior players so I forgive him  ), (2) rationalizing why he was under-prepared and not necessarily why he lost, and (3) a statement that he needs his confidence level at its peak to win another gold. That last bit is all he really needs: to believe in himself, and this should give us some hope that a Protoss can win gold again.
Sorry for sounding like such an apologist, but when your player suddenly pours his heart out in an interview, you kinda feel for him.
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Hopefully this is an accurate translation, but it seems he's learning to move on. We should too. Sure, it's a veiled dig at Coach Park's focus on team leagues, but it's also a way of telling Coach Park that the individual leagues are important for his players too, and that of all his players it's Bisu who's the most hungry to win again. A Coach's job is not just to win but to take care of the mentality of his players (which is why I believe that Kingdom should really return to SKT because he seems to have understood Bisu quite well).
It's not. DES version says "I'm resentful towards him because..." while Fomos says "I'm resentful from a player's perspective towards the team because of..."
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On April 25 2011 13:27 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +Hopefully this is an accurate translation, but it seems he's learning to move on. We should too. Sure, it's a veiled dig at Coach Park's focus on team leagues, but it's also a way of telling Coach Park that the individual leagues are important for his players too, and that of all his players it's Bisu who's the most hungry to win again. A Coach's job is not just to win but to take care of the mentality of his players (which is why I believe that Kingdom should really return to SKT because he seems to have understood Bisu quite well). It's not. DES version says "I'm resentful towards him because..." while Fomos says "I'm resentful from a player's perspective towards the team because of..."
Hmm, so how well does "resentment" translate in Korean culture? Cause it generally carries a bad implication (anger that you keep inside). If the same is true culturally in Korea then Bisu's pretty BM hahaha
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On April 25 2011 04:52 Pistoche wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 04:12 chisuri wrote:
Just compare Bisu and JD's performances after MSL. Bisu won his game, twice. JD lost hist game. And guess who was apparently more prepared in MSL before? Yes, ACE players, big accomplishment there...
ggaemo is a MSL Ro32 player just like Great. They are both eliminated, so your point is?
ZvZ where jaedong decided he wanted to take a gamble and got really unlucky? okay.
Nobody forces him to gamble, if the strategy he chose depends on luck then...well, he lost, that's the fact.
And ZvZ is coin flip, but ZvP is imba, you know.
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On April 25 2011 13:47 Caladbolg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 13:27 Milkis wrote:Hopefully this is an accurate translation, but it seems he's learning to move on. We should too. Sure, it's a veiled dig at Coach Park's focus on team leagues, but it's also a way of telling Coach Park that the individual leagues are important for his players too, and that of all his players it's Bisu who's the most hungry to win again. A Coach's job is not just to win but to take care of the mentality of his players (which is why I believe that Kingdom should really return to SKT because he seems to have understood Bisu quite well). It's not. DES version says "I'm resentful towards him because..." while Fomos says "I'm resentful from a player's perspective towards the team because of..." Hmm, so how well does "resentment" translate in Korean culture? Cause it generally carries a bad implication (anger that you keep inside). If the same is true culturally in Korea then Bisu's pretty BM hahaha
I used the word resentment cause it's the best way I could translate it. He's holding a lot of grudges.
I don't think Bisu's BM. My impression on this is that he's been holding back for a long time and this event really got to him. But it's not like SKT wasn't known for this.
Nobody forces him to gamble, if the strategy he chose depends on luck then...well, he lost, that's the fact.
And ZvZ is coin flip, but ZvP is imba, you know.
Except that was my point -- Jaedong lost that ZvZ on something outside his control, why are you pretending as if it was some result? Don't compare Bisu's PvTs against Flash (which were definitely a factor of being ill prepared on both maps) compared with a coinflip result.
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ggaemo is a MSL Ro32 player just like Great. They are both eliminated, so your point is?
And Modesty got to the Ro4 of the OSL. Its a strawman argument and you know it.
ggaemo is an ACE player. He's got less practice partners to work with, so few that they've spent the last few seasons bitching about how they need more members and new blood so they get actual practice, and he's probably got less time to focus on actual progaming because they have other commitments to deal with.
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I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday. When I watch the MSL's matches, JD seemed to be very well-prepared especially on La Mancha, his timings were so well coordinated that Sea looked helpless. On the other hand, Bisu looked dead even after his game vs Sea. I can't help thinking that he didn't prepare for the match on Dante's Peak and certainly not expected to face Flash there (I mean Flash is the favorite against JD, rite?). And after his terrible wall at the 3rd, his unexplainable engage at Flash's 4th, I can say that he didn't know the map at all or at least not well enough. And thinking about the fact that Dante's Peak is not a PL's map, well, you can see where I'm going to.
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On April 25 2011 15:11 chisuri wrote:
I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday. When I watch the MSL's matches, JD seemed to be very well-prepared especially on La Mancha, his timings were so well coordinated that Sea looked helpless. On the other hand, Bisu looked dead even after his game vs Sea. I can't help thinking that he didn't prepare for the match on Dante's Peak and certainly not expected to face Flash there (I mean Flash is the favorite against JD, rite?). And after his terrible wall at the 3rd, his unexplainable engage at Flash's 4th, I can say that he didn't know the map at all or at least not well enough. And thinking about the fact that Dante's Peak is not a PL's map, well, you can see where I'm going to.
All I'm saying is that JD's "poor display" was due to a coinflip outside of his control (he scouted the wrong way both times with a 9 pool and overlord, although he could have made a better decision, but he plays instinctively so it doesn't matter that much), so you can't make that comparison.
Yes, Bisu was ill prepared on Dante's Peak and Monte Cristo both. That is how he lost. We know this was from bad preparation. I don't know what point you're trying to make.
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On April 25 2011 15:11 chisuri wrote:
I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday.
JD lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage. Bisu beat ACE players. Not really a fair comparison.
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I mean that Bisu is not making excuses here. He definitely lost, ill-prepared or whatever reason. But that was very much his coach's fault to not ALLOW him to practice. And he's telling the truth why some of you're bitching him about that. Some even say that even if he did prepare the results would not be much different. Well I can say that's too subjective. The PL matches have just showed us how important preparation is. JD lost his game kinda unlucky but you must admit his performance were kinda lacking and far far more worse than his game in group D WHERE HE WAS PREPARED. So I think that maybe he was concentrated too much on the MSL games and need a rest, that's very reasonable. And Bisu's games before showed that he was very much prepared FOR THE PL MATCH. What kind of bullshit is that? He didn't prepare for his matches in MSL but for PL match? May I mind you SKT game was one day ahead Oz game, so JD should have more time to prepare for his match, rite? Well, based on the result, he apparently not.
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On April 25 2011 15:20 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 15:11 chisuri wrote:
I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday. JD lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage. Bisu beat ACE players. Not really a fair comparison.
He had the advantage. 9 pool (JD) vs 12 hatch.
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On April 25 2011 15:26 chisuri wrote:
I mean that Bisu is not making excuses here. He definitely lost, ill-prepared or whatever reason. But that was very much his coach's fault to not ALLOW him to practice. And he's telling the truth why some of you're bitching him about that. Some even say that even if he did prepare the results would not be much different. Well I can say that's too subjective. The PL matches have just showed us how important preparation is. JD lost his game kinda unlucky but you must admit his performance were kinda lacking and far far more worse than his game in group D WHERE HE WAS PREPARED. So I think that maybe he was concentrated too much on the MSL games and need a rest, that's very reasonable. And Bisu's games before showed that he was very much prepared FOR THE PL MATCH. What kind of bullshit is that? He didn't prepare for his matches in MSL but for PL match? May I mind you SKT game was one day ahead Oz game, so JD should have more time to prepare for his match, rite? Well, based on the result, he apparently not.
Stop sidestepping the point. I think at this point it's clear you have no idea how to watch ZvZ at all. Performance? Jaedong lost the second his Zerglings went the wrong direction and he knew it, of course it'll make him make desperate decisions that he knows wont work out.
Stop trying to degrade Jaedong to Bisu's level. Jaedong is someone who has handled dual starleagues with full Proleague while performing quite well. Bisu is not Lee Ssang, and part of the reason is because his team is a bitch. I do think it is an excuse and it does excuse Bisu for his MSL performance
But ffs stop trying to say Jaedong wasn't prepared in yesterday's match when he lost to 90% luck and he couldn't do anything about it after his initial choices of actions.
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Although I do believe Bisu could have prepared much better, but still I think his skill is not enough to take out Flash, who was definitely eager to get out of his group. Applying Bisu's PvT level and here you go. Flash and JD qualifying for the next round out of one group doesn't seem like something out of ordinary for me.
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On April 25 2011 15:04 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +ggaemo is a MSL Ro32 player just like Great. They are both eliminated, so your point is? And Modesty got to the Ro4 of the OSL. Its a strawman argument and you know it. ggaemo is an ACE player. He's got less practice partners to work with, so few that they've spent the last few seasons bitching about how they need more members and new blood so they get actual practice, and he's probably got less time to focus on actual progaming because they have other commitments to deal with.
Yet Ggaemo n Great's win-rate this season are quite similar (46% vs 49%), same can be said for Ggaemo's vP and Great's vZ (57% vs 52%).
For the record, M18M's win-rate this season is 46% v All, and 60% vP.
Sure, all Bisu managed to beat in his last game were 2 ACE players, but Jaedong lost his game vs player that is equally mediocre.
No offence to Jaedong and his fans, i love him, wanted him to advance from grp D (together w Bisu). But this "all Bisu managed to beat were some ACE players rofl" is pretty ridiculous.
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