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On April 25 2011 18:01 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:54 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 17:26 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:11 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 16:33 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:19 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 15:27 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 15:20 moopie wrote:On April 25 2011 15:11 chisuri wrote:
I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday. JD lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage. Bisu beat ACE players. Not really a fair comparison. He had the advantage. 9 pool (JD) vs 12 hatch. He scouted Great way too late to benefit from that. if he scouted Great correctly, he auto won. And guess who is unlucky then? well, ok. What I believe is that strongest always wins. So no matter what Flash Bisu JD will say about their losses its all means nothing, its just an excuse for the fans. I don't need it, I need their games to be good, thats it. Trying to excuse somebody's poor performance with lack of preparation, saying "if a had more time, of course I would crush him" looks like we used to say, when we were kids "if i had a bazooka i would destroy you" etc. Its competition, we can only rant that Bisu was unlucky to have less time than the others. What I think Bisu is trying to say here, is his deep regret about not qualifying and he wants to show it to his fans, giving a nice reason to flame about SKT coach injustice and that it wasn't his fault, I think its wrong. Giving the fact that Bisu is worse player than Flash actually, Bisu should have pulled something really outstanding to get through makes all his excuses unnecessary at this point. Good luck Bisu in OSL. You truly make me speechless... Just want to say one last thing, hoping that I can make you understand my point of view. your example and comparison is meaningless. You will never have a bazooka, and even if you have that's unfair. How can giving Bisu the same amount to practice as other competitors be unfair and injustice then? And hell, his complaint about his coach is very much true, many people knew that for years and until today, it's the first time he speak it out loud. Have you ever read Bisu's interview? If you have, has he ever spoken about smt like that, smt can bring him a lot of troubles? He must be restrain it for too long and can't take it anymore. If you don't know what he is suffering plz don't belittle him. All I want to say is that Bisu's individual performance has always been poorer than PL's, and yes maybe you're right and it all because of the coaching policy in SKT. It's just that I feel like its unnecessary to complain about coaches and lack of time, when you are just worse than the other player. Why try to look for some questionable reasons for your loss other than admit that you're worse and will prepare even more to win and finally be the best?. This is what I don't like. The reason is not questionable. He didn't be allowed to practice, he didn't familiar with the maps and his decisions on the spot is not good. That's why he lost. That reason is directly originate from his coach's decision. And it has been for years now. And it's the 1st time he complains. You should try to take unfair treatment for years and try to not complain, then come back here and criticize Bisu. The only questionable thing here is whether he lied or not. He didn't. It's not new and many people knows that.
Ok, I'll take it from him, let it be his excuse. I wish Bisu good luck and good performance in OSL, after all his games have been always jewel.
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On April 25 2011 18:06 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:45 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:19 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:On April 25 2011 16:56 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:45 Milkis wrote:On April 25 2011 16:32 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:01 Milkis wrote:On April 25 2011 15:26 chisuri wrote:
I mean that Bisu is not making excuses here. He definitely lost, ill-prepared or whatever reason. But that was very much his coach's fault to not ALLOW him to practice. And he's telling the truth why some of you're bitching him about that. Some even say that even if he did prepare the results would not be much different. Well I can say that's too subjective. The PL matches have just showed us how important preparation is. JD lost his game kinda unlucky but you must admit his performance were kinda lacking and far far more worse than his game in group D WHERE HE WAS PREPARED. So I think that maybe he was concentrated too much on the MSL games and need a rest, that's very reasonable. And Bisu's games before showed that he was very much prepared FOR THE PL MATCH. What kind of bullshit is that? He didn't prepare for his matches in MSL but for PL match? May I mind you SKT game was one day ahead Oz game, so JD should have more time to prepare for his match, rite? Well, based on the result, he apparently not. Stop sidestepping the point. I think at this point it's clear you have no idea how to watch ZvZ at all. Performance? Jaedong lost the second his Zerglings went the wrong direction and he knew it, of course it'll make him make desperate decisions that he knows wont work out. Stop trying to degrade Jaedong to Bisu's level. Jaedong is someone who has handled dual starleagues with full Proleague while performing quite well. Bisu is not Lee Ssang, and part of the reason is because his team is a bitch. I do think it is an excuse and it does excuse Bisu for his MSL performance But ffs stop trying to say Jaedong wasn't prepared in yesterday's match when he lost to 90% luck and he couldn't do anything about it after his initial choices of actions. So JD just succumbs to luck without any further resistance? And I thought TBLS is one or two classes above the rest especially JD in ZvZ, didn't he overcome many many BO disadvantages, bad-luck scoutings before? So if his ability was enough to overcome such things before, why it didn't yesterday? Maybe (just maybe) because of his lack of preparation? You must be somewhat very bias to not see the difference between JD's preparation for his game on La Mancha and Bisu's group stage matches. And hell, just compare Bisu's game on Aztec and his MSL games. He can beat Flash with preparation, it's a fact, it happened. But he didn't have that preparation for his MSL games. And if you agree that he was lack of prep, then how come he says so is equal to finding excuses? That's not his fault. HE WANTED TO PRACTICE. HE WANTED TO PREPARE. BUT HIS COACH DIDN'T ALLOW HIM FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Why that he says he's upset upon his coach is excusing? HE SHOULD BE VERY THANKFUL SINCE HE CAN BLAME HIS COACH FOR HIS LOSS NOW. No, he doesn't want to lose. He wants to win for his fans. And god, his coach didn't care. You haters just flame his no matter what, now even when he speaks the truth and says sorry to his fans. And hell, he just wants to compete better with the other S-class. you don't want that? You want him to not be allowed to practice so your Lee Ssang can beat him? Well, ok, I guess we have to accept that and come back to PL where Bisu is allowing to practice and watch he beats Flash and JD, especially JD consecutively. And you can enjoy your Lee Ssang's domination in SLs with one of the two other S-class isn't allowed to practice and the others is allowed to not practice and to watch manga and play Cellphone games. Of course it's not his fault. I already said his excuse was a valid one. I don't know what you're ranting about but you're clearly misinterpreting a lot of things I'm saying. Chillax. So your reasons for saying JD is one level above Bisu is? As far as I remember, when JD was running for MSL, OSL and PL in 2009 he did collapse in MSL against Calm, and in PL against Fantasy, twice. And at the end of 2010 season he lost both finals to Flash and his team didn't make PL playoff, no? At the beginning of this season, Bisu performed better in PL, his team won WL playoff over Oz and KT and his past performance in SLs was equal to Flash and just slightly worse than JD. So what is the level of JD that Bisu can't reach? There's also the fact that Jaedong's semifinals series against Calm in MSL was one day before his semis vs Fantasy, and both of these were basically almost right after he had just lost in PL. He also won that OSL by defeating fantasy in the semis, the very person who had sniped him in PL earlier. I don't even remember if Bisu had ever made dual semifinals? As for PL, yes, Jaedong kind of choked at the finals, but for the 2008-2009 season, Jaedong basically carried his team for most of the PL season, while still making deep runs into SLs, something Bisu has not been able to do for quite a while, even with a solid team behind him. As for the 2009-2010 season, the main reason Oz didn't make playoffs was because of the ace match choices during the first few rounds (Killer for ace), not because Jaedong failed a lot in PL. Oftentimes, JD was the only one to win. Also, you mentioned Jaedong losing both finals to Flash. Let me ask you this: when has Bisu ever been able to make dual finals, while having to carry his PL team? Bisu hasn't made it past the Ro8 of a league since Avalon MSL, where he lost a series vs Iris that I'm pretty sure he shouldn't have lost. Unless you're referring to past as in before 2009 or something for past performance in SLs. As for comparing Bisu to Flash: Flash has made dual finals 3 times in a row. And finally, for WL playoffs: he basically functioned as a final boss/sniper, while KT and Oz both turned back into their normal one-man teams. If he had to make multiple kills, I wouldn't have been certain SKT would've won. In 2010 Bisu was slumping hard. That makes his comeback and current performance even more incredible. And you can't see since Bisu came back he have been beating JD consecutively? In 2007 and 2008 and even now, when Bisu was and is performing well, what makes JD a level above him? If i'm not mistaken, when Bisu is performing well, he also very much carries his team from MBC to SKT1. And I will repeat it one more time, even when Flash and JD have to carry their teams, they only need to prepare for 2 games per match in PL, the very same amount of Bisu's preparation. And about the sniper role in WL playoff, lol. Bisu and JD were both sent out last. Nobody can assure how the 3 first players of each team would perform so that the preparation of both should be the same. The same about Flash, nobody can predict how the match would turn out to be. I admit JD and Flash's achievements are amazing. But even though JD is more consistent, when Bisu's at his peak (before and now) he seems to be the one a level above JD. look man, what you wanna say is that Bisu is at his peak now, and he's out of MSL already because of SKT and WL? Well thats a poor argument and ppl here have already told you why. You know that if Bisu were better than JD, he would have won MSL's and OSL's. You excuse him by being in a slump at that time? So then being in a slump is not being a worse player? And if you're a true Bisu fan you should know that he has never won a bo match against JD. Yes he has a record against him, but hell does he have a record in other mathups. JD has been consistent all the time in PL and individuals his entire career, taking 2-3-1 places, were was Bisu? Slumping? I don't think you are serious.
So JD's skill is worse than Flash and Bisu and equal to Stork in their match ups. Bisu won Saviors at his peak, Flash won everything. Stork is aroud for longer than I can remember. JD pretty much wins some 1 class below players when Flash didn't know how to TvZ, and Bisu and Stork were slumping as their race's nature kicked in and some outside reasons (Bisu's coach, Stork's dictractions...) and he is 1 level above them because..well he has 2 more OSLs than Bisu? How about his PL's trophies?
I respect JD and I count him equal to Bisu and Stork, really. But not above.
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On April 25 2011 18:29 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 18:06 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 17:45 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:19 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:On April 25 2011 16:56 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:45 Milkis wrote:On April 25 2011 16:32 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:01 Milkis wrote:On April 25 2011 15:26 chisuri wrote:
I mean that Bisu is not making excuses here. He definitely lost, ill-prepared or whatever reason. But that was very much his coach's fault to not ALLOW him to practice. And he's telling the truth why some of you're bitching him about that. Some even say that even if he did prepare the results would not be much different. Well I can say that's too subjective. The PL matches have just showed us how important preparation is. JD lost his game kinda unlucky but you must admit his performance were kinda lacking and far far more worse than his game in group D WHERE HE WAS PREPARED. So I think that maybe he was concentrated too much on the MSL games and need a rest, that's very reasonable. And Bisu's games before showed that he was very much prepared FOR THE PL MATCH. What kind of bullshit is that? He didn't prepare for his matches in MSL but for PL match? May I mind you SKT game was one day ahead Oz game, so JD should have more time to prepare for his match, rite? Well, based on the result, he apparently not. Stop sidestepping the point. I think at this point it's clear you have no idea how to watch ZvZ at all. Performance? Jaedong lost the second his Zerglings went the wrong direction and he knew it, of course it'll make him make desperate decisions that he knows wont work out. Stop trying to degrade Jaedong to Bisu's level. Jaedong is someone who has handled dual starleagues with full Proleague while performing quite well. Bisu is not Lee Ssang, and part of the reason is because his team is a bitch. I do think it is an excuse and it does excuse Bisu for his MSL performance But ffs stop trying to say Jaedong wasn't prepared in yesterday's match when he lost to 90% luck and he couldn't do anything about it after his initial choices of actions. So JD just succumbs to luck without any further resistance? And I thought TBLS is one or two classes above the rest especially JD in ZvZ, didn't he overcome many many BO disadvantages, bad-luck scoutings before? So if his ability was enough to overcome such things before, why it didn't yesterday? Maybe (just maybe) because of his lack of preparation? You must be somewhat very bias to not see the difference between JD's preparation for his game on La Mancha and Bisu's group stage matches. And hell, just compare Bisu's game on Aztec and his MSL games. He can beat Flash with preparation, it's a fact, it happened. But he didn't have that preparation for his MSL games. And if you agree that he was lack of prep, then how come he says so is equal to finding excuses? That's not his fault. HE WANTED TO PRACTICE. HE WANTED TO PREPARE. BUT HIS COACH DIDN'T ALLOW HIM FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Why that he says he's upset upon his coach is excusing? HE SHOULD BE VERY THANKFUL SINCE HE CAN BLAME HIS COACH FOR HIS LOSS NOW. No, he doesn't want to lose. He wants to win for his fans. And god, his coach didn't care. You haters just flame his no matter what, now even when he speaks the truth and says sorry to his fans. And hell, he just wants to compete better with the other S-class. you don't want that? You want him to not be allowed to practice so your Lee Ssang can beat him? Well, ok, I guess we have to accept that and come back to PL where Bisu is allowing to practice and watch he beats Flash and JD, especially JD consecutively. And you can enjoy your Lee Ssang's domination in SLs with one of the two other S-class isn't allowed to practice and the others is allowed to not practice and to watch manga and play Cellphone games. Of course it's not his fault. I already said his excuse was a valid one. I don't know what you're ranting about but you're clearly misinterpreting a lot of things I'm saying. Chillax. So your reasons for saying JD is one level above Bisu is? As far as I remember, when JD was running for MSL, OSL and PL in 2009 he did collapse in MSL against Calm, and in PL against Fantasy, twice. And at the end of 2010 season he lost both finals to Flash and his team didn't make PL playoff, no? At the beginning of this season, Bisu performed better in PL, his team won WL playoff over Oz and KT and his past performance in SLs was equal to Flash and just slightly worse than JD. So what is the level of JD that Bisu can't reach? There's also the fact that Jaedong's semifinals series against Calm in MSL was one day before his semis vs Fantasy, and both of these were basically almost right after he had just lost in PL. He also won that OSL by defeating fantasy in the semis, the very person who had sniped him in PL earlier. I don't even remember if Bisu had ever made dual semifinals? As for PL, yes, Jaedong kind of choked at the finals, but for the 2008-2009 season, Jaedong basically carried his team for most of the PL season, while still making deep runs into SLs, something Bisu has not been able to do for quite a while, even with a solid team behind him. As for the 2009-2010 season, the main reason Oz didn't make playoffs was because of the ace match choices during the first few rounds (Killer for ace), not because Jaedong failed a lot in PL. Oftentimes, JD was the only one to win. Also, you mentioned Jaedong losing both finals to Flash. Let me ask you this: when has Bisu ever been able to make dual finals, while having to carry his PL team? Bisu hasn't made it past the Ro8 of a league since Avalon MSL, where he lost a series vs Iris that I'm pretty sure he shouldn't have lost. Unless you're referring to past as in before 2009 or something for past performance in SLs. As for comparing Bisu to Flash: Flash has made dual finals 3 times in a row. And finally, for WL playoffs: he basically functioned as a final boss/sniper, while KT and Oz both turned back into their normal one-man teams. If he had to make multiple kills, I wouldn't have been certain SKT would've won. In 2010 Bisu was slumping hard. That makes his comeback and current performance even more incredible. And you can't see since Bisu came back he have been beating JD consecutively? In 2007 and 2008 and even now, when Bisu was and is performing well, what makes JD a level above him? If i'm not mistaken, when Bisu is performing well, he also very much carries his team from MBC to SKT1. And I will repeat it one more time, even when Flash and JD have to carry their teams, they only need to prepare for 2 games per match in PL, the very same amount of Bisu's preparation. And about the sniper role in WL playoff, lol. Bisu and JD were both sent out last. Nobody can assure how the 3 first players of each team would perform so that the preparation of both should be the same. The same about Flash, nobody can predict how the match would turn out to be. I admit JD and Flash's achievements are amazing. But even though JD is more consistent, when Bisu's at his peak (before and now) he seems to be the one a level above JD. look man, what you wanna say is that Bisu is at his peak now, and he's out of MSL already because of SKT and WL? Well thats a poor argument and ppl here have already told you why. You know that if Bisu were better than JD, he would have won MSL's and OSL's. You excuse him by being in a slump at that time? So then being in a slump is not being a worse player? And if you're a true Bisu fan you should know that he has never won a bo match against JD. Yes he has a record against him, but hell does he have a record in other mathups. JD has been consistent all the time in PL and individuals his entire career, taking 2-3-1 places, were was Bisu? Slumping? I don't think you are serious. So JD's skill is worse than Flash and Bisu and equal to Stork in their match ups. Bisu won Saviors at his peak, Flash won everything. Stork is aroud for longer than I can remember. JD pretty much wins some 1 class below players when Flash didn't know how to TvZ, and Bisu and Stork were slumping as their race's nature kicked in and some outside reasons (Bisu's coach, Stork's dictractions...) and he is 1 level above them because..well he has 2 more OSLs than Bisu? How about his PL's trophies? I respect JD and I count him equal to Bisu and Stork, really. But not above.
Oh my, i guess only Bisu's fail in next OSL against Shine for ex(Oh how we could forget about it?)
will somehow chill SKT fans down, but honestly, I don't want this to happen.
I cant say Bisu is more skilled than JD fairly because he is only best at PvZ, a very good PvP and good PvT player, when JD is the best fucking zerg in all possible matchups. How can you argue against that? Your only argument is Bisu's PL performance over JD?, ok, but we can always agree that its Bisu's skill PLUS SKT's preparation and coaching talent, but how can it be an argument then?
Statistics should be analysed thoroughly before referring to it. Oh should all SKT fans complain now about his lack of time and over-devotion to his team for his losses in individual games? This cant be true. I don't know why does this even go under any kind of doubt that Bisu is less skilled than Flash and JD? Oh should I mention the fact that Bisu is 3-4 to Zero, that is according to your logic makes Zero better.
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Poor Bisu. I feel him. ILs > PL, so much more interesting.
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On April 25 2011 18:56 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 18:29 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 18:06 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 17:45 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:19 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:On April 25 2011 16:56 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:45 Milkis wrote:On April 25 2011 16:32 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:01 Milkis wrote:On April 25 2011 15:26 chisuri wrote:
I mean that Bisu is not making excuses here. He definitely lost, ill-prepared or whatever reason. But that was very much his coach's fault to not ALLOW him to practice. And he's telling the truth why some of you're bitching him about that. Some even say that even if he did prepare the results would not be much different. Well I can say that's too subjective. The PL matches have just showed us how important preparation is. JD lost his game kinda unlucky but you must admit his performance were kinda lacking and far far more worse than his game in group D WHERE HE WAS PREPARED. So I think that maybe he was concentrated too much on the MSL games and need a rest, that's very reasonable. And Bisu's games before showed that he was very much prepared FOR THE PL MATCH. What kind of bullshit is that? He didn't prepare for his matches in MSL but for PL match? May I mind you SKT game was one day ahead Oz game, so JD should have more time to prepare for his match, rite? Well, based on the result, he apparently not. Stop sidestepping the point. I think at this point it's clear you have no idea how to watch ZvZ at all. Performance? Jaedong lost the second his Zerglings went the wrong direction and he knew it, of course it'll make him make desperate decisions that he knows wont work out. Stop trying to degrade Jaedong to Bisu's level. Jaedong is someone who has handled dual starleagues with full Proleague while performing quite well. Bisu is not Lee Ssang, and part of the reason is because his team is a bitch. I do think it is an excuse and it does excuse Bisu for his MSL performance But ffs stop trying to say Jaedong wasn't prepared in yesterday's match when he lost to 90% luck and he couldn't do anything about it after his initial choices of actions. So JD just succumbs to luck without any further resistance? And I thought TBLS is one or two classes above the rest especially JD in ZvZ, didn't he overcome many many BO disadvantages, bad-luck scoutings before? So if his ability was enough to overcome such things before, why it didn't yesterday? Maybe (just maybe) because of his lack of preparation? You must be somewhat very bias to not see the difference between JD's preparation for his game on La Mancha and Bisu's group stage matches. And hell, just compare Bisu's game on Aztec and his MSL games. He can beat Flash with preparation, it's a fact, it happened. But he didn't have that preparation for his MSL games. And if you agree that he was lack of prep, then how come he says so is equal to finding excuses? That's not his fault. HE WANTED TO PRACTICE. HE WANTED TO PREPARE. BUT HIS COACH DIDN'T ALLOW HIM FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Why that he says he's upset upon his coach is excusing? HE SHOULD BE VERY THANKFUL SINCE HE CAN BLAME HIS COACH FOR HIS LOSS NOW. No, he doesn't want to lose. He wants to win for his fans. And god, his coach didn't care. You haters just flame his no matter what, now even when he speaks the truth and says sorry to his fans. And hell, he just wants to compete better with the other S-class. you don't want that? You want him to not be allowed to practice so your Lee Ssang can beat him? Well, ok, I guess we have to accept that and come back to PL where Bisu is allowing to practice and watch he beats Flash and JD, especially JD consecutively. And you can enjoy your Lee Ssang's domination in SLs with one of the two other S-class isn't allowed to practice and the others is allowed to not practice and to watch manga and play Cellphone games. Of course it's not his fault. I already said his excuse was a valid one. I don't know what you're ranting about but you're clearly misinterpreting a lot of things I'm saying. Chillax. So your reasons for saying JD is one level above Bisu is? As far as I remember, when JD was running for MSL, OSL and PL in 2009 he did collapse in MSL against Calm, and in PL against Fantasy, twice. And at the end of 2010 season he lost both finals to Flash and his team didn't make PL playoff, no? At the beginning of this season, Bisu performed better in PL, his team won WL playoff over Oz and KT and his past performance in SLs was equal to Flash and just slightly worse than JD. So what is the level of JD that Bisu can't reach? There's also the fact that Jaedong's semifinals series against Calm in MSL was one day before his semis vs Fantasy, and both of these were basically almost right after he had just lost in PL. He also won that OSL by defeating fantasy in the semis, the very person who had sniped him in PL earlier. I don't even remember if Bisu had ever made dual semifinals? As for PL, yes, Jaedong kind of choked at the finals, but for the 2008-2009 season, Jaedong basically carried his team for most of the PL season, while still making deep runs into SLs, something Bisu has not been able to do for quite a while, even with a solid team behind him. As for the 2009-2010 season, the main reason Oz didn't make playoffs was because of the ace match choices during the first few rounds (Killer for ace), not because Jaedong failed a lot in PL. Oftentimes, JD was the only one to win. Also, you mentioned Jaedong losing both finals to Flash. Let me ask you this: when has Bisu ever been able to make dual finals, while having to carry his PL team? Bisu hasn't made it past the Ro8 of a league since Avalon MSL, where he lost a series vs Iris that I'm pretty sure he shouldn't have lost. Unless you're referring to past as in before 2009 or something for past performance in SLs. As for comparing Bisu to Flash: Flash has made dual finals 3 times in a row. And finally, for WL playoffs: he basically functioned as a final boss/sniper, while KT and Oz both turned back into their normal one-man teams. If he had to make multiple kills, I wouldn't have been certain SKT would've won. In 2010 Bisu was slumping hard. That makes his comeback and current performance even more incredible. And you can't see since Bisu came back he have been beating JD consecutively? In 2007 and 2008 and even now, when Bisu was and is performing well, what makes JD a level above him? If i'm not mistaken, when Bisu is performing well, he also very much carries his team from MBC to SKT1. And I will repeat it one more time, even when Flash and JD have to carry their teams, they only need to prepare for 2 games per match in PL, the very same amount of Bisu's preparation. And about the sniper role in WL playoff, lol. Bisu and JD were both sent out last. Nobody can assure how the 3 first players of each team would perform so that the preparation of both should be the same. The same about Flash, nobody can predict how the match would turn out to be. I admit JD and Flash's achievements are amazing. But even though JD is more consistent, when Bisu's at his peak (before and now) he seems to be the one a level above JD. look man, what you wanna say is that Bisu is at his peak now, and he's out of MSL already because of SKT and WL? Well thats a poor argument and ppl here have already told you why. You know that if Bisu were better than JD, he would have won MSL's and OSL's. You excuse him by being in a slump at that time? So then being in a slump is not being a worse player? And if you're a true Bisu fan you should know that he has never won a bo match against JD. Yes he has a record against him, but hell does he have a record in other mathups. JD has been consistent all the time in PL and individuals his entire career, taking 2-3-1 places, were was Bisu? Slumping? I don't think you are serious. So JD's skill is worse than Flash and Bisu and equal to Stork in their match ups. Bisu won Saviors at his peak, Flash won everything. Stork is aroud for longer than I can remember. JD pretty much wins some 1 class below players when Flash didn't know how to TvZ, and Bisu and Stork were slumping as their race's nature kicked in and some outside reasons (Bisu's coach, Stork's dictractions...) and he is 1 level above them because..well he has 2 more OSLs than Bisu? How about his PL's trophies? I respect JD and I count him equal to Bisu and Stork, really. But not above. Oh my, i guess only Bisu's fail in next OSL against Shine for ex(Oh how we could forget about it?) will somehow chill SKT fans down, but honestly, I don't want this to happen. I cant say Bisu is more skilled than JD fairly because he is only best at PvZ, a very good PvP and good PvT player, when JD is the best fucking zerg in all possible matchups. How can you argue against that? Your only argument is Bisu's PL performance over JD?, ok, but we can always agree that its Bisu's skill PLUS SKT's preparation and coaching talent, but how can it be an argument then? Statistics should be analysed thoroughly before referring to it. Oh should all SKT fans complain now about his lack of time and over-devotion to his team for his losses in individual games? This cant be true. I don't know why does this even go under any kind of doubt that Bisu is less skilled than Flash and JD? Oh should I mention the fact that Bisu is 3-4 to Zero, that is according to your logic makes Zero better.
No I say Bisu is more skilled than JD in their match ups. you should check TLPD to see the head-to-head stat between JD vs 3 others members of TBLS. Nothng in my argument involves another player not a TBLS member. And Bisu is the best PvT now arcording to his recent results. PvZ, well don't let me talk about it so what? Of course JD should be the best in all 3 match ups he is the only Zerg in TBLS. And they are above the rest of progamers scene. And I don't need to chill down whatever, I think that Flash is a little above others TBLS members (and he's just lost to Bisu and JD) and the other 3 are equal. I don't say that bisu is the best etc but one level below JD? No I don't think so.
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where is fantasy's interview?
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On April 25 2011 20:14 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 18:56 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 18:29 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 18:06 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 17:45 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:19 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote:On April 25 2011 16:56 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:45 Milkis wrote:On April 25 2011 16:32 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:01 Milkis wrote:
[quote]
Stop sidestepping the point. I think at this point it's clear you have no idea how to watch ZvZ at all. Performance? Jaedong lost the second his Zerglings went the wrong direction and he knew it, of course it'll make him make desperate decisions that he knows wont work out.
Stop trying to degrade Jaedong to Bisu's level. Jaedong is someone who has handled dual starleagues with full Proleague while performing quite well. Bisu is not Lee Ssang, and part of the reason is because his team is a bitch. I do think it is an excuse and it does excuse Bisu for his MSL performance
But ffs stop trying to say Jaedong wasn't prepared in yesterday's match when he lost to 90% luck and he couldn't do anything about it after his initial choices of actions. So JD just succumbs to luck without any further resistance? And I thought TBLS is one or two classes above the rest especially JD in ZvZ, didn't he overcome many many BO disadvantages, bad-luck scoutings before? So if his ability was enough to overcome such things before, why it didn't yesterday? Maybe (just maybe) because of his lack of preparation? You must be somewhat very bias to not see the difference between JD's preparation for his game on La Mancha and Bisu's group stage matches. And hell, just compare Bisu's game on Aztec and his MSL games. He can beat Flash with preparation, it's a fact, it happened. But he didn't have that preparation for his MSL games. And if you agree that he was lack of prep, then how come he says so is equal to finding excuses? That's not his fault. HE WANTED TO PRACTICE. HE WANTED TO PREPARE. BUT HIS COACH DIDN'T ALLOW HIM FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. Why that he says he's upset upon his coach is excusing? HE SHOULD BE VERY THANKFUL SINCE HE CAN BLAME HIS COACH FOR HIS LOSS NOW. No, he doesn't want to lose. He wants to win for his fans. And god, his coach didn't care. You haters just flame his no matter what, now even when he speaks the truth and says sorry to his fans. And hell, he just wants to compete better with the other S-class. you don't want that? You want him to not be allowed to practice so your Lee Ssang can beat him? Well, ok, I guess we have to accept that and come back to PL where Bisu is allowing to practice and watch he beats Flash and JD, especially JD consecutively. And you can enjoy your Lee Ssang's domination in SLs with one of the two other S-class isn't allowed to practice and the others is allowed to not practice and to watch manga and play Cellphone games. Of course it's not his fault. I already said his excuse was a valid one. I don't know what you're ranting about but you're clearly misinterpreting a lot of things I'm saying. Chillax. So your reasons for saying JD is one level above Bisu is? As far as I remember, when JD was running for MSL, OSL and PL in 2009 he did collapse in MSL against Calm, and in PL against Fantasy, twice. And at the end of 2010 season he lost both finals to Flash and his team didn't make PL playoff, no? At the beginning of this season, Bisu performed better in PL, his team won WL playoff over Oz and KT and his past performance in SLs was equal to Flash and just slightly worse than JD. So what is the level of JD that Bisu can't reach? There's also the fact that Jaedong's semifinals series against Calm in MSL was one day before his semis vs Fantasy, and both of these were basically almost right after he had just lost in PL. He also won that OSL by defeating fantasy in the semis, the very person who had sniped him in PL earlier. I don't even remember if Bisu had ever made dual semifinals? As for PL, yes, Jaedong kind of choked at the finals, but for the 2008-2009 season, Jaedong basically carried his team for most of the PL season, while still making deep runs into SLs, something Bisu has not been able to do for quite a while, even with a solid team behind him. As for the 2009-2010 season, the main reason Oz didn't make playoffs was because of the ace match choices during the first few rounds (Killer for ace), not because Jaedong failed a lot in PL. Oftentimes, JD was the only one to win. Also, you mentioned Jaedong losing both finals to Flash. Let me ask you this: when has Bisu ever been able to make dual finals, while having to carry his PL team? Bisu hasn't made it past the Ro8 of a league since Avalon MSL, where he lost a series vs Iris that I'm pretty sure he shouldn't have lost. Unless you're referring to past as in before 2009 or something for past performance in SLs. As for comparing Bisu to Flash: Flash has made dual finals 3 times in a row. And finally, for WL playoffs: he basically functioned as a final boss/sniper, while KT and Oz both turned back into their normal one-man teams. If he had to make multiple kills, I wouldn't have been certain SKT would've won. In 2010 Bisu was slumping hard. That makes his comeback and current performance even more incredible. And you can't see since Bisu came back he have been beating JD consecutively? In 2007 and 2008 and even now, when Bisu was and is performing well, what makes JD a level above him? If i'm not mistaken, when Bisu is performing well, he also very much carries his team from MBC to SKT1. And I will repeat it one more time, even when Flash and JD have to carry their teams, they only need to prepare for 2 games per match in PL, the very same amount of Bisu's preparation. And about the sniper role in WL playoff, lol. Bisu and JD were both sent out last. Nobody can assure how the 3 first players of each team would perform so that the preparation of both should be the same. The same about Flash, nobody can predict how the match would turn out to be. I admit JD and Flash's achievements are amazing. But even though JD is more consistent, when Bisu's at his peak (before and now) he seems to be the one a level above JD. look man, what you wanna say is that Bisu is at his peak now, and he's out of MSL already because of SKT and WL? Well thats a poor argument and ppl here have already told you why. You know that if Bisu were better than JD, he would have won MSL's and OSL's. You excuse him by being in a slump at that time? So then being in a slump is not being a worse player? And if you're a true Bisu fan you should know that he has never won a bo match against JD. Yes he has a record against him, but hell does he have a record in other mathups. JD has been consistent all the time in PL and individuals his entire career, taking 2-3-1 places, were was Bisu? Slumping? I don't think you are serious. So JD's skill is worse than Flash and Bisu and equal to Stork in their match ups. Bisu won Saviors at his peak, Flash won everything. Stork is aroud for longer than I can remember. JD pretty much wins some 1 class below players when Flash didn't know how to TvZ, and Bisu and Stork were slumping as their race's nature kicked in and some outside reasons (Bisu's coach, Stork's dictractions...) and he is 1 level above them because..well he has 2 more OSLs than Bisu? How about his PL's trophies? I respect JD and I count him equal to Bisu and Stork, really. But not above. Oh my, i guess only Bisu's fail in next OSL against Shine for ex(Oh how we could forget about it?) will somehow chill SKT fans down, but honestly, I don't want this to happen. I cant say Bisu is more skilled than JD fairly because he is only best at PvZ, a very good PvP and good PvT player, when JD is the best fucking zerg in all possible matchups. How can you argue against that? Your only argument is Bisu's PL performance over JD?, ok, but we can always agree that its Bisu's skill PLUS SKT's preparation and coaching talent, but how can it be an argument then? Statistics should be analysed thoroughly before referring to it. Oh should all SKT fans complain now about his lack of time and over-devotion to his team for his losses in individual games? This cant be true. I don't know why does this even go under any kind of doubt that Bisu is less skilled than Flash and JD? Oh should I mention the fact that Bisu is 3-4 to Zero, that is according to your logic makes Zero better. No I say Bisu is more skilled than JD in their match ups. you should check TLPD to see the head-to-head stat between JD vs 3 others members of TBLS. Nothng in my argument involves another player not a TBLS member. And Bisu is the best PvT now arcording to his recent results. PvZ, well don't let me talk about it so what? Of course JD should be the best in all 3 match ups he is the only Zerg in TBLS. And they are above the rest of progamers scene. And I don't need to chill down whatever, I think that Flash is a little above others TBLS members (and he's just lost to Bisu and JD) and the other 3 are equal. I don't say that bisu is the best etc but one level below JD? No I don't think so.
Do not stick to this "one level below", it was just a sentence, you can say a less solid player instead. Treat it like calling Flash "newb turtle" for turtling too much today, for example, out of frustration or disappointment) its just words that sprung out. Lets look forward to wonderful games ahead instead.
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On April 25 2011 20:27 Cheeseburgered wrote:
where is fantasy's interview?
Unfortunately Bisu sometimes detracts from the other players' interviews being completed. But hey, Bisu fighting! And thanks for the interview.
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5003 Posts
On April 25 2011 18:06 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:34 Milkis wrote:
My reason for saying JD is one level above Bisu is mentality and playstyle. The point is Jaedong handles dual starleagues and playstyle and he won't complain about it. Of course he can lose even if he's prepared, or maybe because he's not as prepared as he wants himself to be.
Seriously the "level" in starcraft is about skills and results, it has nothing to do with "complaining" or "BM" or "cool" or any other bullshit. Based on your logic I can say that Bisu is one level above Jaedong because he has better look than Jaedong (because my definition of "level" is base on that), and the same can be said for Jaedong vs Flash. Jaedong cannot be one level above either Bisu or Flash simply because he lost to them way more than he won against them in normal games that focus on mechanics/multitask/macro/micro... or any other game skills. You cannot just constantly lose to a guy and still go "i'm one level above him lol". My point is, results and skills speak, not some stupid subjective factors.
And yet, mentality is what separates Lee Ssang from the rest. Then again, a lot is lost in translation of the progamer's personalities and such, so let's leave it at that -- but all I'm going to say is that people in the foreign communities don't obviously get a complete picture of how progamers are like and how they think.
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On April 25 2011 17:54 letian wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:26 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:11 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 16:33 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:19 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 15:27 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 15:20 moopie wrote:On April 25 2011 15:11 chisuri wrote:
I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday. JD lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage. Bisu beat ACE players. Not really a fair comparison. He had the advantage. 9 pool (JD) vs 12 hatch. He scouted Great way too late to benefit from that. if he scouted Great correctly, he auto won. And guess who is unlucky then? well, ok. What I believe is that strongest always wins. So no matter what Flash Bisu JD will say about their losses its all means nothing, its just an excuse for the fans. I don't need it, I need their games to be good, thats it. Trying to excuse somebody's poor performance with lack of preparation, saying "if a had more time, of course I would crush him" looks like we used to say, when we were kids "if i had a bazooka i would destroy you" etc. Its competition, we can only rant that Bisu was unlucky to have less time than the others. What I think Bisu is trying to say here, is his deep regret about not qualifying and he wants to show it to his fans, giving a nice reason to flame about SKT coach injustice and that it wasn't his fault, I think its wrong. Giving the fact that Bisu is worse player than Flash actually, Bisu should have pulled something really outstanding to get through makes all his excuses unnecessary at this point. Good luck Bisu in OSL. You truly make me speechless... Just want to say one last thing, hoping that I can make you understand my point of view. your example and comparison is meaningless. You will never have a bazooka, and even if you have that's unfair. How can giving Bisu the same amount to practice as other competitors be unfair and injustice then? And hell, his complaint about his coach is very much true, many people knew that for years and until today, it's the first time he speak it out loud. Have you ever read Bisu's interview? If you have, has he ever spoken about smt like that, smt can bring him a lot of troubles? He must be restrain it for too long and can't take it anymore. If you don't know what he is suffering plz don't belittle him. All I want to say is that Bisu's individual performance has always been poorer than PL's, and yes maybe you're right and it all because of the coaching policy in SKT. It's just that I feel like its unnecessary to complain about coaches and lack of time, when you are just worse than the other player. Why try to look for some questionable reasons for your loss other than admit that you're worse and will prepare even more to win and finally be the best?. This is what I don't like.
Worse players can sometimes beat better players given enough practice time. Flash and Jaedong didn't make the final of either Starleague either last season. It's just appalling that progamers can't even show some frustration without getting attacked. Just take his interview for what it is without going all rabid on him.
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5003 Posts
On April 26 2011 01:32 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2011 17:54 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 17:26 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:11 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 16:33 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:19 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 15:27 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 15:20 moopie wrote:On April 25 2011 15:11 chisuri wrote:
I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday. JD lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage. Bisu beat ACE players. Not really a fair comparison. He had the advantage. 9 pool (JD) vs 12 hatch. He scouted Great way too late to benefit from that. if he scouted Great correctly, he auto won. And guess who is unlucky then? well, ok. What I believe is that strongest always wins. So no matter what Flash Bisu JD will say about their losses its all means nothing, its just an excuse for the fans. I don't need it, I need their games to be good, thats it. Trying to excuse somebody's poor performance with lack of preparation, saying "if a had more time, of course I would crush him" looks like we used to say, when we were kids "if i had a bazooka i would destroy you" etc. Its competition, we can only rant that Bisu was unlucky to have less time than the others. What I think Bisu is trying to say here, is his deep regret about not qualifying and he wants to show it to his fans, giving a nice reason to flame about SKT coach injustice and that it wasn't his fault, I think its wrong. Giving the fact that Bisu is worse player than Flash actually, Bisu should have pulled something really outstanding to get through makes all his excuses unnecessary at this point. Good luck Bisu in OSL. You truly make me speechless... Just want to say one last thing, hoping that I can make you understand my point of view. your example and comparison is meaningless. You will never have a bazooka, and even if you have that's unfair. How can giving Bisu the same amount to practice as other competitors be unfair and injustice then? And hell, his complaint about his coach is very much true, many people knew that for years and until today, it's the first time he speak it out loud. Have you ever read Bisu's interview? If you have, has he ever spoken about smt like that, smt can bring him a lot of troubles? He must be restrain it for too long and can't take it anymore. If you don't know what he is suffering plz don't belittle him. All I want to say is that Bisu's individual performance has always been poorer than PL's, and yes maybe you're right and it all because of the coaching policy in SKT. It's just that I feel like its unnecessary to complain about coaches and lack of time, when you are just worse than the other player. Why try to look for some questionable reasons for your loss other than admit that you're worse and will prepare even more to win and finally be the best?. This is what I don't like. Worse players can sometimes beat better players given enough practice time. Flash and Jaedong didn't make the final of either Starleague either last season. It's just appalling that progamers can't even show some frustration without getting attacked. Just take his interview for what it is without going all rabid on him.
Of course they can.
Fomos's article has like, 1300 comments on it. Most of that is sympathizing with Bisu.
Why do you assume I'm even being "rabid" on him and acting like I'm attacking him? Did you read any of my posts before jumping to that conclusion? That is a lot more appalling than anything else, imo. My point is that most people like to point to Lee Ssang and go "lol look at them" to say Bisu should man up -- my point is that Bisu is no Lee Ssang and does not have that inhuman ability.
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On April 26 2011 01:36 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 01:32 andrewlt wrote:On April 25 2011 17:54 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 17:26 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:11 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 16:33 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:19 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 15:27 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 15:20 moopie wrote:On April 25 2011 15:11 chisuri wrote:
I don't compare Bisu's games vs Flash to JD's game yesterday. I compare his performance in the match with ACE to JD's match with KHAN to show that maybe JD was too focus on the MSL group rather than prepare for PL match leading to his poor display yesterday. JD lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage. Bisu beat ACE players. Not really a fair comparison. He had the advantage. 9 pool (JD) vs 12 hatch. He scouted Great way too late to benefit from that. if he scouted Great correctly, he auto won. And guess who is unlucky then? well, ok. What I believe is that strongest always wins. So no matter what Flash Bisu JD will say about their losses its all means nothing, its just an excuse for the fans. I don't need it, I need their games to be good, thats it. Trying to excuse somebody's poor performance with lack of preparation, saying "if a had more time, of course I would crush him" looks like we used to say, when we were kids "if i had a bazooka i would destroy you" etc. Its competition, we can only rant that Bisu was unlucky to have less time than the others. What I think Bisu is trying to say here, is his deep regret about not qualifying and he wants to show it to his fans, giving a nice reason to flame about SKT coach injustice and that it wasn't his fault, I think its wrong. Giving the fact that Bisu is worse player than Flash actually, Bisu should have pulled something really outstanding to get through makes all his excuses unnecessary at this point. Good luck Bisu in OSL. You truly make me speechless... Just want to say one last thing, hoping that I can make you understand my point of view. your example and comparison is meaningless. You will never have a bazooka, and even if you have that's unfair. How can giving Bisu the same amount to practice as other competitors be unfair and injustice then? And hell, his complaint about his coach is very much true, many people knew that for years and until today, it's the first time he speak it out loud. Have you ever read Bisu's interview? If you have, has he ever spoken about smt like that, smt can bring him a lot of troubles? He must be restrain it for too long and can't take it anymore. If you don't know what he is suffering plz don't belittle him. All I want to say is that Bisu's individual performance has always been poorer than PL's, and yes maybe you're right and it all because of the coaching policy in SKT. It's just that I feel like its unnecessary to complain about coaches and lack of time, when you are just worse than the other player. Why try to look for some questionable reasons for your loss other than admit that you're worse and will prepare even more to win and finally be the best?. This is what I don't like. Worse players can sometimes beat better players given enough practice time. Flash and Jaedong didn't make the final of either Starleague either last season. It's just appalling that progamers can't even show some frustration without getting attacked. Just take his interview for what it is without going all rabid on him. Of course they can. Fomos's article has like, 1300 comments on it. Most of that is sympathizing with Bisu. Why do you assume I'm even being "rabid" on him and acting like I'm attacking him? Did you read any of my posts before jumping to that conclusion? That is a lot more appalling than anything else, imo. My point is that most people like to point to Lee Ssang and go "lol look at them" to say Bisu should man up -- my point is that Bisu is no Lee Ssang and does not have that inhuman ability.
Not you, dude. The guy I'm responding to.
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5003 Posts
On April 26 2011 01:38 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 01:36 Milkis wrote:On April 26 2011 01:32 andrewlt wrote:On April 25 2011 17:54 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 17:26 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 17:11 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 16:33 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 16:19 letian wrote:On April 25 2011 15:27 chisuri wrote:On April 25 2011 15:20 moopie wrote:
[quote]
JD lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage. Bisu beat ACE players. Not really a fair comparison.
He had the advantage. 9 pool (JD) vs 12 hatch. He scouted Great way too late to benefit from that. if he scouted Great correctly, he auto won. And guess who is unlucky then? well, ok. What I believe is that strongest always wins. So no matter what Flash Bisu JD will say about their losses its all means nothing, its just an excuse for the fans. I don't need it, I need their games to be good, thats it. Trying to excuse somebody's poor performance with lack of preparation, saying "if a had more time, of course I would crush him" looks like we used to say, when we were kids "if i had a bazooka i would destroy you" etc. Its competition, we can only rant that Bisu was unlucky to have less time than the others. What I think Bisu is trying to say here, is his deep regret about not qualifying and he wants to show it to his fans, giving a nice reason to flame about SKT coach injustice and that it wasn't his fault, I think its wrong. Giving the fact that Bisu is worse player than Flash actually, Bisu should have pulled something really outstanding to get through makes all his excuses unnecessary at this point. Good luck Bisu in OSL. You truly make me speechless... Just want to say one last thing, hoping that I can make you understand my point of view. your example and comparison is meaningless. You will never have a bazooka, and even if you have that's unfair. How can giving Bisu the same amount to practice as other competitors be unfair and injustice then? And hell, his complaint about his coach is very much true, many people knew that for years and until today, it's the first time he speak it out loud. Have you ever read Bisu's interview? If you have, has he ever spoken about smt like that, smt can bring him a lot of troubles? He must be restrain it for too long and can't take it anymore. If you don't know what he is suffering plz don't belittle him. All I want to say is that Bisu's individual performance has always been poorer than PL's, and yes maybe you're right and it all because of the coaching policy in SKT. It's just that I feel like its unnecessary to complain about coaches and lack of time, when you are just worse than the other player. Why try to look for some questionable reasons for your loss other than admit that you're worse and will prepare even more to win and finally be the best?. This is what I don't like. Worse players can sometimes beat better players given enough practice time. Flash and Jaedong didn't make the final of either Starleague either last season. It's just appalling that progamers can't even show some frustration without getting attacked. Just take his interview for what it is without going all rabid on him. Of course they can. Fomos's article has like, 1300 comments on it. Most of that is sympathizing with Bisu. Why do you assume I'm even being "rabid" on him and acting like I'm attacking him? Did you read any of my posts before jumping to that conclusion? That is a lot more appalling than anything else, imo. My point is that most people like to point to Lee Ssang and go "lol look at them" to say Bisu should man up -- my point is that Bisu is no Lee Ssang and does not have that inhuman ability. Not you, dude. The guy I'm responding to.
Okay I do admit that I kind of misread that, haha. Sorry.
But I do think that it's more of an angry response to something that was a lot more rabid before. But I sure hope people don't really think that Bisu is only trying to save face with his "excuse" -- I don't think it's an excuse as much as an explanation of what has been happening since he joined SKT and Boxer left. Bisu is just really frustrated and has every right to be and honestly I don't think many people (past the initial few posts) are actually attacking him, and I think if the translation was a bit better and people knew about SKT's tendencies a little better I do think people would be more sympathetic.
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Wow why are so many people fired up just because Milkis said Jaedong is one level higher than Bisu?
It's true guys. Jaedong has an amazing winner's mentality. Bisu's psyche is more fragile.
Anything can change when Bisu starts winning again in series play, but as of now I don't think you can twist the facts to say that Bisu's better or even that he's equal to JD. Give the Dong some credit. LeeSsang have been the best (most consistently peaking, as well) players in Starcraft since 2009.
Yeah you can bring up JD's head to head vs the rest of TBLS but then statistical arguments aren't complete without including pure results, and in that JD's ahead of Bisu by 2 golds and countless silvers. Against JD, yeah Bisu might be a stronger player, but that kind of comparison fails when you compare, let's say, Skyhigh vs Sea (Sea is the better player definitely but Skyhigh at his prime would crush Sea).
And you can't really compare peak play vs peak play because, unlike Flash, Bisu hasn't faced a prime Jaedong in a Bo5 (cept that GOM thing).
For the record, I think prime Bisu would beat prime Jaedong but that's because of the matchup.
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On April 26 2011 03:14 Caladbolg wrote:
Wow why are so many people fired up just because Milkis said Jaedong is one level higher than Bisu?
It's true guys. Jaedong has an amazing winner's mentality. Bisu's psyche is more fragile.
Anything can change when Bisu starts winning again in series play, but as of now I don't think you can twist the facts to say that Bisu's better or even that he's equal to JD. Give the Dong some credit. LeeSsang have been the best (most consistently peaking, as well) players in Starcraft since 2009.
Yeah you can bring up JD's head to head vs the rest of TBLS but then statistical arguments aren't complete without including pure results, and in that JD's ahead of Bisu by 2 golds and countless silvers. Against JD, yeah Bisu might be a stronger player, but that kind of comparison fails when you compare, let's say, Skyhigh vs Sea (Sea is the better player definitely but Skyhigh at his prime would crush Sea).
And you can't really compare peak play vs peak play because, unlike Flash, Bisu hasn't faced a prime Jaedong in a Bo5 (cept that GOM thing).
For the record, I think prime Bisu would beat prime Jaedong but that's because of the matchup.
If Skyhigh is lucky enough to have a full Terrans SL up to the final he will be very likely win that SL.
And no, Sea is a more consistent player than Bisu and Stork. He is not as good as they are. Consistency is cool and good but the skill is too much to be neglected. And also, Bisu is not fragile, he always comes back, just like JD and Flash after his first title. But his race has a fragile strength and depends very much on strategy so...
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On April 26 2011 03:44 chisuri wrote:
If Skyhigh is lucky enough to have a full Terrans SL up to the final he will be very likely win that SL.
And no, Sea is a more consistent player than Bisu and Stork. He is not as good as they are. Consistency is cool and good but the skill is too much to be neglected. And also, Bisu is not fragile, he always comes back, just like JD and Flash after his first title. But his race has a fragile strength and depends very much on strategy so...
Skyhigh will not beat Flash in a series though, haha.
I was never implying Sea was better, but that his matchups are very stable (no PvT/PvP ups and downs). Hence overall he is better than Skyhigh. But he will almost never defeat Skyhigh in a BoX. It's a similar, albeit exaggerated statement in relation to Bisu beating Jaedong. Yes, I will put my money on Bisu every single time they face each other. If, however, there will be a bet on who will have an overall better career, legacy, and overall impression of mental fortitude, I won't (neither will I bet on Jaedong though).
All I'm saying is that Milkis' statement that Jaedong is one level higher than Bisu is not a wholly inaccurate one. Evidence suggests that he IS one level higher than Bisu. Past and current performance, taken alongside overall results shows it. Coming back from 0-2 deficits. Reaching Starleague finals time and time again. Being the only one who stood up against Flash during the latter's brief reign of absolute terror last year.
If you ask Flash which pro-gamer he most respects and considers his peer, he will say Jaedong 100% of the time. And Flash would be right to say that.
Bisu still has a chance to enter the discussion. His current play already puts him, at minimum, top 5. The OSL will come soon. The MSL will (most likely) continue. Flash and Jaedong are still 1 and 2.
There can be another revolution.
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On April 25 2011 22:02 Simplistik wrote:Unfortunately Bisu sometimes detracts from the other players' interviews being completed. But hey, Bisu fighting! And thanks for the interview.
good to see SKT is more than bisu
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On April 26 2011 04:13 Caladbolg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2011 03:44 chisuri wrote:
If Skyhigh is lucky enough to have a full Terrans SL up to the final he will be very likely win that SL.
And no, Sea is a more consistent player than Bisu and Stork. He is not as good as they are. Consistency is cool and good but the skill is too much to be neglected. And also, Bisu is not fragile, he always comes back, just like JD and Flash after his first title. But his race has a fragile strength and depends very much on strategy so... Skyhigh will not beat Flash in a series though, haha. I was never implying Sea was better, but that his matchups are very stable (no PvT/PvP ups and downs). Hence overall he is better than Skyhigh. But he will almost never defeat Skyhigh in a BoX. It's a similar, albeit exaggerated statement in relation to Bisu beating Jaedong. Yes, I will put my money on Bisu every single time they face each other. If, however, there will be a bet on who will have an overall better career, legacy, and overall impression of mental fortitude, I won't (neither will I bet on Jaedong though). All I'm saying is that Milkis' statement that Jaedong is one level higher than Bisu is not a wholly inaccurate one. Evidence suggests that he IS one level higher than Bisu. Past and current performance, taken alongside overall results shows it. Coming back from 0-2 deficits. Reaching Starleague finals time and time again. Being the only one who stood up against Flash during the latter's brief reign of absolute terror last year. If you ask Flash which pro-gamer he most respects and considers his peer, he will say Jaedong 100% of the time. And Flash would be right to say that. Bisu still has a chance to enter the discussion. His current play already puts him, at minimum, top 5. The OSL will come soon. The MSL will (most likely) continue. Flash and Jaedong are still 1 and 2. There can be another revolution.
All of your reasoning about JD one level above can be roughly rejected by 1 fact: Bisu is Protoss. Now if you ask not only Flash but every players who is the most respected and most skilled Protoss player in BW history, the answer would mostly Bisu and maybe Stork up to some points (can't exclude him really). That's Protoss for you, they don't have an ultimate weapon or king or tyrant. They have ups and downs but Bisu is special, his mental gratitude is at least equal to Flash's and JD's. He occasionally slumps for quite a time but he will always come back and lead the Protoss again (with Stork, who is motivated by Bisu, of course). And his skill is second to none, seriously. And Bisu have always bean suffering some lacks of preparation or even the sympathy and care from his coach. yeah I know it sounds very much like excuses but I do believe even JD himself considers Bisu his rival and equal competitor.
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On April 26 2011 04:49 chisuri wrote:
All of your reasoning about JD one level above can be roughly rejected by 1 fact: Bisu is Protoss. Now if you ask not only Flash but every players who is the most respected and most skilled Protoss player in BW history, the answer would mostly Bisu and maybe Stork up to some points (can't exclude him really). That's Protoss for you, they don't have an ultimate weapon or king or tyrant. They have ups and downs but Bisu is special, his mental gratitude is at least equal to Flash's and JD's. He occasionally slumps for quite a time but he will always come back and lead the Protoss again (with Stork, who is motivated by Bisu, of course). And his skill is second to none, seriously. And Bisu have always bean suffering some lacks of preparation or even the sympathy and care from his coach. yeah I know it sounds very much like excuses but I do believe even JD himself considers Bisu his rival and equal competitor.
Race is not an argument when it comes to S-Class. The moment you open that can of worms, discussion melts into "tank imba" or "swarm imba" or "carriers imba". You might as well say that Protoss is the weakest race (it's the least successful, which is different) and use that to insulate Bisu from criticism.
The TBLS are open to comparison simply because they're a cut above, a class in themselves, and they can be categorized and ranked by differing degrees of success and skill. We can still appreciate absolute specific skill/overall skill between them. We can also recognize certain things like mental fortitude of a level higher than the others (for example, Flash clearly has the best game sense of the four).
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EPT
