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I was literally referencing their courage videos because they have good first hand accounts and opinions from people who were actually there and taking part. Also why on earth are you even replying, I just said that it was arbitrary and inaccessible, which it is, there's layers of obfuscation from being able to qualify for a starleague without prior approval, this is a fact, a real fact that's all factual and facty. Why on earth would you assume anyone would be sore over Ret or Nony when both of them turned out to leave Korea anyway, not to mention Ret's disapproval of the KeSPA teams' approach causing him to leave, while planning to return now that it's a situation with more personal control (not that I am implying this has anything to do with progaming licenses and is more to do with the culture of the teams that take part in Proleague).
I really don't care about your petty arguments that try to gloss over everything one side does wrong while amplifying everything the other side does wrong, it's retarded and I really, truly, honestly with one hand on my heart and the other on an anthology of religious holy texts and atheist/agnostic equivalents, care at all. I get it, you like KeSPA, you're unwilling to approach this in a reasonable and logical manner because you want the current BW system to continue, I can understand it. Just stop assuming that everyone who says anything remotely bad about the current system is as indebted to a cause as you, because the vast majority of people you're so vehemently disagreeing with haven't been doing that.
I post in these threads trying to clear up issues that cause contention with evidenced reasoning and it just seems to give me more headaches.
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You are overreacting.. While you disapprove of Courage and the current licensing system, claiming that it is arbitrary and inaccessible for the best players.. I merely stated my opinion otherwise, with reasons.. I also have to say that bit about "inaccessible for the best players" is false, since all the best players are already there competing at pro level.. Its regrettable that foreigners dont have access to it unless they are in Korea, but with stronger foundations and better investments even that barrier will hopefully be overcome in the future. Overall i feel that the current Courage and Licensing system is fair.
And i didnt even mention Blizzard in my post, where did you get thetry to gloss over everything one side does wrong while amplifying everything the other side does wrong from, please enlighten me. If it is a misunderstanding i ll be more than happy to clear it up.
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Can you please not use quote marks and italics when not actually quoting something i've said. Ofcourse the very best players will get through in all likelihood, but that doesn't stop it being arbitrary and inaccessible. I was literally stating a fact and once again someone has taken it upon themselves to derive an opinion from it. I don't really know why people who have no experience in making sports popular feel that they are capable of knowing exactly what the best way to do things is, I certainly don't.
As for the latter part of your post if you really think stuff like this is ok, especially when referring to a guy who was being a lot more civil than 90% of the KeSPA can only do BW zealots, I don't really know what goes on in your head. It's probably worth noting that was a general statement about the replies I seem to get whenever I post and not necessarily aimed at you.
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That guy was trolling the shit out of this thread and that was why he was temp banned.
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This is probably the biggest piece of BS i have ever read.
Despite professional opinion saying that giving shared ownership to the original IP holder is too much considering the technical skills by the broadcasting stations and the efforts of the players required to creating the program, the approval fee and the usage fee to broadcast the games, KeSPA has agreed to have limited share ownership for promotional use, and is doing its best to reach the end of the negotiations. is the ONLY reason blizzard is suing them. Blizzard and gretech could care less about the cost or profitability of the league. If blizzard losses the ability to hold IP in korea, then they would lose everything that they are going to gain from sc2 esports. Blizzard wants them to have a PL, MSL, etc. What they don't want is some company or even some country thinking that breaking international IP law is an ok thing to do.
Kespa lovers, please note that if this happened in the United states you would 100% stand behind blizzard. If you disagree with the current IP law that is a different story that should be discussed on some lawyer forums somewhere else.
Kespa is worse than any union i've ever known. Preventing players from participating in officially liscened tournaments is a 100% to anger gretech and blizzard and rightfully so.
Also as for the setup of kespa, blizzard could probably care less. If those players want to get themselves in that situation that is their decision to make. Teams actually are a good idea for competitive gaming. But teams has nothing to do with why blizzard is suing. Blizzard is suing because someone is not respecting their IP rights, that is all.
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For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.
If you're discussing the NaDa thing, he was under a contract with WeMade, a SC1 team.
Why would they let him promote SC2 by participating in a show match?
Go read up on the term "contract" please.
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On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM..
What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee
Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL.
In other words: you're wrong
On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
If you're discussing the NaDa thing, he was under a contract with WeMade, a SC1 team.
WeMade is part of KeSPA in case you didn't know. And they aren't Sc1 team - they also got CounterStrike and War3.
On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
Why would they let him promote SC2 by participating in a show match?
Because Carmac got permission to from WeMade?
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On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:
What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee
Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL.
In other words: you're wrong
If you're under contract then why would you expect to be allowed to do this? Remember it was individual teams who at first were pulling players out of the GOM league in the first place before it was decided it was a pointless endeavor for all (which it was). These players are paid salaries and have contracts, do you understand any of this and how it works in the real world. Lets say as KeSPA approved team leader, say SKT1, why would i want any of my players wasting practice time on an unrelated league? Then worse still, in the future this league turns out to be run by the same people who are trying their best to get Brood War replaced by their new game. Why the fuck would you allow that? It's not as if they don't let the players go and play in any events at all, why do you think they are still at WCG every year?
Unless Gretech is contributing in some way, such as owning a pro team like STX (thereby having the STX masters), or doing anything in regards to help your cause then why would you want your players in their tournaments. I have a feeling you will just say something about a player should be able to do what he wants but thats not how a contract works in anything. If i'm employed somewhere i wouldn't expect to be freely allowed to do freelance work for a direct competitor unless my employer allowed that. Not sure why anyone thinks progamers should be any different, if this is to be treated as a true professional sport.
Maybe there's room in the scene for actual freelance gamers who can compete in the licensed leagues too, but theres no system set up for this right now and no need because anyone who has the required skill is under contract already, except say.. EffOrt, so he could play in all leagues and be under no contract, but would that even benefit him more than a CJ contract?
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On October 29 2010 22:55 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:
What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee
Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL.
In other words: you're wrong
If you're under contract then why would you expect to be allowed to do this? Remember it was individual teams who at first were pulling players out of the GOM league in the first place before it was decided it was a pointless endeavor for all (which it was). These players are paid salaries and have contracts, do you understand any of this and how it works in the real world. Lets say as KeSPA approved team leader, say SKT1, why would i want any of my players wasting practice time on an unrelated league? Then worse still, in the future this league turns out to be run by the same people who are trying their best to get Brood War replaced by their new game. Why the fuck would you allow that? It's not as if they don't let the players go and play in any events at all, why do you think they are still at WCG every year?
I wasn't going into detail if it's bad or good that KeSPA pulled their players from GOM, so all that you have written is a waste of time.
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Fair enough, good or bad but they did it yes, after half the teams had already decided to pull out it should be noted.
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On October 29 2010 07:30 leakingpear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 06:41 palexhur wrote:On October 29 2010 02:34 leakingpear wrote:On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote:
Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims? Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of. Well first, i think you dont know how works the political system , I am very close to the vicepresident of my country and I am going to tell you: even though Kespa is not an arm of the government, all the actions that has been made and all the statements in the past and now from the McO can be seen as a big support to Kespa, I can assure you this 100%, if Korea has a corrupted political system or not is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. A system without licenses is less arbitrary and inaccessible? how does the licenses forbid the best players to turn out in professional gamers? (please explain me), I am not saying the model is perfect but I dont think it results in an arbitrary and inaccessible system. The licensing system revolved around either being pre-selected by teams and being given a special pass, which was arbitrary and down to being able to show off to certain people, the other route was through courage, a tournament that only happened once a month and only lets in either 1 or 2 people each month (which is largely considered a lottery of being cheesed in 128 person tournaments, for reference see Ret and Nony's courage videos). Plus even if you win courage you're not guaranteed to be picked up by a team at all, you just have to hope so at the draft. Without a license a player can't even join a team or take place in individual events, regardless of skill level. So yeah, it is arbitrary and inaccessible, it's not totally inaccessible otherwise no one be playing at all, but it's not a simple and easy process for the best players to come through. As for the anecdotal evidence about the vice president of the ministry of culture in Colombia, that's just too ridiculous to be taken seriously at all. Even if it were true, which I find doubtful at best, the fact that you're using such vague and inspecific language, not to mention that there really haven't been any MoC statements that have been in direct support of KeSPA in recent memory, leads me to believe you're trying to make something up that no one can actually check to see if it's correct or not. As for the relevance of corruption and lobbying, it's relevant in that it's more likely to decide any government interference than anything that happens in public due to the lack of impetus for the government to be involved on its own volition. I do actually check these things before I post them, I know it's weird to do that on here since you're meant to just make shit up and hope it sticks so I apologise for being thorough.
Believe what you want guy, your argumentation is very poor even though you got very long posts trying to be smart, and I am done with you, and not I am not close to the vicepresident of the MoC in my country but the Vicepresident of the country himself, so no worries for sure I know how politics work from first hand and not because I read something in some magazine, bye.
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On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong
God, you're so full of shit. they didn't pull all players from gomtv starleague. Three teams in the first season is far from "all". Stop making shit up to support your "arguments". Also where did you come up with the idea that they didn't participate because gretech didn't pay them a fee? Afaik gretech never paid any fees to KeSPA and until season 3 or so only few teams decided not to participate.
You are wrong, again.
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On October 30 2010 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong God, you're so full of shit. they didn't pull all players from gomtv starleague. Three teams in the first season is far from "all". Stop making shit up to support your "arguments". Also where did you come up with the idea that they didn't participate because gretech didn't pay them a fee? Afaik gretech never paid any fees to KeSPA and until season 3 or so only few teams decided not to participate. You are wrong, again.
Not going deep into arguments because these wars every week doesn't change anyones stance, but i'll quote what gretech employee (junkka) said on these forums
Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license if they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic.
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Estonia4504 Posts
The post from junkka doesn't sound biased at all, especially surprising since it comes from a GOM TV employee :O
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On October 30 2010 00:41 mustaju wrote:
The post from junkka doesn't sound biased at all, especially surprising since it comes from a GOM TV employee :O
Enough with conspiracy theorys because there are enough of them in this forum.
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On October 30 2010 00:48 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 00:41 mustaju wrote:
The post from junkka doesn't sound biased at all, especially surprising since it comes from a GOM TV employee :O Enough with conspiracy theorys because there are enough of them in this forum.
I don't think it's a conspiracy theory to state that a comment by an employee of an organization might be biased towards that organization; it's common sense. Same applies to statements released by kespa though.
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On October 29 2010 15:56 darmousseh wrote:This is probably the biggest piece of BS i have ever read. Show nested quote + Despite professional opinion saying that giving shared ownership to the original IP holder is too much considering the technical skills by the broadcasting stations and the efforts of the players required to creating the program, the approval fee and the usage fee to broadcast the games, KeSPA has agreed to have limited share ownership for promotional use, and is doing its best to reach the end of the negotiations. is the ONLY reason blizzard is suing them. Blizzard and gretech could care less about the cost or profitability of the league. If blizzard losses the ability to hold IP in korea, then they would lose everything that they are going to gain from sc2 esports. Blizzard wants them to have a PL, MSL, etc. What they don't want is some company or even some country thinking that breaking international IP law is an ok thing to do. Kespa lovers, please note that if this happened in the United states you would 100% stand behind blizzard. If you disagree with the current IP law that is a different story that should be discussed on some lawyer forums somewhere else. Kespa is worse than any union i've ever known. Preventing players from participating in officially liscened tournaments is a 100% to anger gretech and blizzard and rightfully so. Also as for the setup of kespa, blizzard could probably care less. If those players want to get themselves in that situation that is their decision to make. Teams actually are a good idea for competitive gaming. But teams has nothing to do with why blizzard is suing. Blizzard is suing because someone is not respecting their IP rights, that is all.
So many of you do not get the most basic concepts. KeSPA actually is not preventing players from participating in any tournament. Obvious examples are Nada, Boxer and July. How can they prevetn anything. Korea is a free country. Companies behind KeSPA however are paying the salaries of those players, and they can certainly fire those players who want to play other leagues (the ones not organized by KeSPA). This is exactly what any other professional sporting organization would do.
I hope now everyone understands the whole "KeSPA preventing other toutnamnets" issue.
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Exactly.. You cant really hope Rooney (i hope u know who he is) to play for Chelsea and still get paid big bucks by Man.Utd.. Players should be allowed to play (for) whichever (club) they want? I dont think so.. Now if he really want to play for the other side, he gets fired.. After he is fired, he is free to play whatever he wants.. Same story w Kespa (hell they did let the players participate at 1st, but pulled out due to the fact that GOM tourney simply wasnt worth it).
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Are these numbers in DOLLARS or YEN.
1.7 billion, yen to usd = like 22 million.
1.7 billion usd to usd = 1.7 billion.
Just out of curiosity
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On October 30 2010 02:08 Rickilicious wrote:
Are these numbers in DOLLARS or YEN.
1.7 billion, yen to usd = like 22 million.
1.7 billion usd to usd = 1.7 billion.
Just out of curiosity
korea isn't japan man.
its won not yen
go google exchange it
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EPT
