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Note: Before commenting on this news, please read this following blog post: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=163343
KeSPA has announced their official stance regarding the end of negotiations and the move into the court of law. The full text is as follows.
▶ KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports.
Currently, the majority of KeSPA's income comes from the organization fee, Proleague Sponsorship, and the broadcasting fees, and all of the income is reinvested into the operation of Proleague and to develop the foundations of eSports.
The broadcasting busbiness with regards to Proleague broadcasting that started in 2007 was started to support the foundation of eSports and league operations and to create an organizational structure so that many more people can watch eSports and Proleague by broadcasting Proleague that keeps up with the change in environment.
It is the truth that after this business started in 2007, KeSPA has used the entirety of the sponsorship money and the broadcasting fees to operate Proleague. KeSPA selected IEG to be its broadcasting license business partner in 2007, and received 1.7 billion won in broadcasting fees. The main broadcasting stations, OGN and MBC, has paid 600 million won each over the three years, for a total of 1.2 billion won to IEG. However, KeSPA has reinvested 250 million won to each broadcasting station yearly for broadcast program creation fees, for a total of 1.5 billion won total.
The truth is that it is difficult to create a profit and have a safe operation of Proleague with how Proleague currently operates unlike many other pro-Sports industries. The situation is the same for many other companies that operate eSports contests.
KeSPA, from 2008, after a change in the law regarding new media environments, found that their income from broadcasting fees have shrunk. In order to continue to support and expand the market where players and teams can be active in leagues on the level of Proleague, KeSPA has run a deficit every year, which was alleviated in part by the organizational fee. KeSPA has also been lowering its deficit through changes in how the league operates and other efforts.
In this situation, while the conditions being negotiated with Gretech such as the Contest Approval Fee and other fees can have a huge effect on the operations of the leagues, but because KeSPA respects the IP rights related to Starcraft 1, and to allow the safe operations of Starcraft 1 leagues, have been in negotiations with Gretech so that we can reach an agreeable negotiatoin.
▶ It is disappointing that Blizzard has mentioned lawsuits in the middle of negotiations. KeSPA and the Progame teams, Gretech, and the lawyer from Blizzard has continued to negotiate for a while. On October 20th, the negotiation team and KeSPA has agreed to a portion of the contracts and the approval of the Platform in this 8th meeting, and on the 25th, the 9th meeting, we talked about the IP rights of the broadcasted programs, events, and the approval fee. It is very disappointing that on October 22nd, Blizzard's CEO Paul Sams, during his interview at Blizzcon, announced that "It is very important to protect our IP rights", "We have tried to solve this problem in a fair way for many years, and we have reached the conclusion that a law suit would be the best way".
Afterwards, KeSPA, in order to continue negotiations, had the 9th meeting on 10/25, 10th meeting on 10/27 and negotiated regarding events and the room for comprehensive negotiation for leagues , and had tuned the differences in opinion regarding authorship rights of broadcast programs, league approval fees, and have negotiated the beginning of next week for an 11th meeting.
But after the end of the meeting on 10/27, something far from the truth has been announced, claiming that "KeSPA-Gretech negotiations break down; Lawsuits next". This is very flustering for KeSPA and the progame teams, and is disappointed as it brings doubt to the negotiation process that is going smoothly.
▶ KeSPA and the Progame teams has been putting in their best efforts for negotiations and is involved in the negotiations sincerely. During this time, KeSPA and the Progame teams have sincerely been a part of negotiations with Gretech, and has proposed many amendments, and sacrificed many conditions to operate the leagues safely. Despite professional opinion saying that giving shared ownership to the original IP holder is too much considering the technical skills by the broadcasting stations and the efforts of the players required to creating the program, the approval fee and the usage fee to broadcast the games, KeSPA has agreed to have limited share ownership for promotional use, and is doing its best to reach the end of the negotiations.
But the extreme approval fee that ignores the current Starcraft 1 league income situation has not changed since the beginning. As we know from what Gretech has announced on the 16th, their fees are 1 won to hold a contest, 100 million won to broadcast the contest, and once added up, the Proleague is a 100 million, and the Starleagues operated by the broadcasting stations end up at 600 million, so the actual amount requested is at least 700 million won.
The current Korean Starcraft 1 eSports market still needs to grow before thinking about income structure, and requires a lot more investment.
While the proleague has accumulated a deficit of 670 million won over the 3 seasons, it is operated by broadcasting license fees and the organization fee. Furthermore, the broadcasting stations' individual leagues are continually operated despite that they are barely avoiding the deficit. Despite all of this, the negotiation team has announced that we are willing to pay an affordable amount of approval fee many times.
The current Korean Starcraft 1 market needs to have a safer environment, and so all income related to Starcraft 1 is currently being reinvested into the scene.
KeSPA and the Progame teams, through this negotiation process, hopes to establish a clear foundation regarding the rights, and works hard to create a positive result during the negotiation process.
Source: http://fomos.kr/board/board.php?mode=read&keyno=111745&db=issue
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Thanks in advance for translating.
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I'm F5ing so hard, I think my fingers might go numb.
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Thanks for the translation~
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This ought to be good.
Thanks in advance for the translate .
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f5 f5 f5 thanks for translating
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Hopefully SC BW will keep on living!
Thanks for the translate, I can't wait!
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It looks long. Thanks for translation in advance.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
Gah I was going to sleep but...
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Wheeeeeeee.... quick with the translation! XD The tension is way too much for me.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
I'm F5ing the crap out of this right now.
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$700,000 for something that's barely, if at all, profitable (live events are free entry, there's no pay-per-view) just seems like a way of trying to clear out competition for the GSL. That sort of tax on esports just shows Blizzard's PR for what it is, bullshit.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
Blizzard says that stuff is going badly...KeSPA says it is no going badly.
Fomos is Anti-KeSPA
which implies +1 ti KeSPA!
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Finally, we can see that Kespa is not only a non-profit organization but the Proleague has been running under a deficit for the past few years! What is Blizzard thinking by asking too much?
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5003 Posts
On October 28 2010 18:31 BLinD-RawR wrote: Blizzard says that stuff is going badly...KeSPA says it is no going badly.
Fomos is Anti-KeSPA
which implies +1 ti KeSPA!
Fomos is pro-blizzard, not anti KeSPA. There is a significant difference here.
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I havnt been following the KeSPA/Blizz situation that closely as I didnt start watching competitive SC until SC2 came out. Because of my lack of info feel free to correct me if im wrong. What i've gathered is that KeSPA was holding tournaments without a contract or something (Violated IP rights?) and Blizz wants them to pay a lot of money for it even though KeSPA is responsible for probably half of their income from SC anyway?
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On October 28 2010 18:33 Moderas wrote: I havnt been following the KeSPA/Blizz situation that closely as I didnt start watching competitive SC until SC2 came out. Because of my lack of info feel free to correct me if im wrong. What i've gathered is that KeSPA was holding tournaments without a contract or something (Violated IP rights?) and Blizz wants them to pay a lot of money for it even though KeSPA is responsible for probably half of their income from SC anyway? at first they wanted royalties, but i think their motive is for bw to make way for sc2 now
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Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely.
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But doesnt gom have exclusive rights to SC2? It would make more sense if they just gave SC2 liscensing to KeSPA instead of all this nonsense if their only goal was to kill BW and bring in SC2 ><
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Is this right ?
KeSPA 1.7 billion won income in 2007 OGN 600 million won spent in 3 years MBC 600 million won spent in 3 years IEG 1.5 billion won income in 3 years
KeSPA 1.5 billion won spent to OGN/MBC in 3 years OGN 750 million won back for broadcasting creation in 3 years / 250 million won a year MBC 750 million won back for broadcasting creation in 3 years / 250 million won a year
Gretech / Blizz (don't know which one) asks for 700 million won each year (not 700m but it sums up to this amount). With the distribution of: KeSPA 100 million won each year OGN 300 million won each year MBC 300 million won each year
Did I do it right ? would really be helpfull if we get a spreadsheet of income/outcome and what the profit/losses would be if gretech/blizz got their demands of fees.
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from the moment that blizz announced no LAN, i knew this will happen. those stupid DRM schemes simply destroy the very same product it was meant to protect.
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On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely.
That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below:
"KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports."
Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings.
Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction?
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On October 28 2010 18:48 shannn wrote: Is this right ?
KeSPA 1.7 billion won income in 2007 OGN 600 million won spent in 3 years MBC 600 million won spent in 3 years IEG 1.5 billion won income in 3 years
KeSPA 1.5 billion won spent to OGN/MBC in 3 years OGN 750 million won back for broadcasting creation in 3 years / 250 million won a year MBC 750 million won back for broadcasting creation in 3 years / 250 million won a year
Gretech / Blizz (don't know which one) asks for 700 million won each year. With the distribution of: KeSPA 100 million won each year OGN 300 million won each year MBC 300 million won each year
Did I do it right ? would really be helpfull if we get a spreadsheet of income/outcome and what the profit/losses would be if gretech/blizz got their demands of fees. shann,
KeSPA was talking about the total cost to run the eSport tournaments which included studio fees, staff wages, player prizes etc.
the amounts you mentioned about GOM/Blizz is the fee they want as royalty to license the use of the game. all other costs are on top of it.
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On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction?
Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that.
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On October 28 2010 18:51 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:48 shannn wrote: Is this right ?
KeSPA 1.7 billion won income in 2007 OGN 600 million won spent in 3 years MBC 600 million won spent in 3 years IEG 1.5 billion won income in 3 years
KeSPA 1.5 billion won spent to OGN/MBC in 3 years OGN 750 million won back for broadcasting creation in 3 years / 250 million won a year MBC 750 million won back for broadcasting creation in 3 years / 250 million won a year
Gretech / Blizz (don't know which one) asks for 700 million won each year. With the distribution of: KeSPA 100 million won each year OGN 300 million won each year MBC 300 million won each year
Did I do it right ? would really be helpfull if we get a spreadsheet of income/outcome and what the profit/losses would be if gretech/blizz got their demands of fees. shann, KeSPA was talking about the total cost to run the eSport tournaments which included studio fees, staff wages, player prizes etc. the amounts you mentioned about GOM/Blizz is the fee they want as royalty to license the use of the game. all other costs are on top of it. Yea I figured that out already but just wanted to know about the fees for what they mentioned. Obviously salaries / prize money goes on top which goes further but I can't get that information out of the post.
I already figured out that with salaries and prize money they'll get losses but just wanted a sheet for this about the post.
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On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that.
Then, would you like to give me several reasons that show Blizzard DOES care about e-sports? Tell me now, before you label anyone a blind fanboy.
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Um, that they are trusting the longevity of their new game entirely to the success of its eSport element?
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On October 28 2010 19:00 ricerocket wrote: Um, that they are trusting the longevity of their new game entirely to the success of its eSport element?
By wanting to kill off a successful BW proscene in Korea just to promote a new game? I don't think so.
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On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote: Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. its true. blizz doesnt care about eSport. the CEO of blizzard answers to the board of directors who in turn answer to the shareholders. how many shareholders of activision blizzard care about eSport?
the only reason why blizz is giving a damn right now is because they see money on the table. why else was BW dropped from blizzcon?
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On October 28 2010 18:56 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. Then, would you like to give me several reasons that show Blizzard DOES care about e-sports? Tell me now, before you label anyone a blind fanboy. You might want to change your signature.
I think we can all agree that we can't really trust either side 100%. That said, I can't help but lean slightly more to Blizzard/Gretech's side after KeSPA's history of fuck-ups and their general tone of empty words whenever they make a statement like this.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that.
you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all.
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I still don't get what makes you think that their suing of KeSPA = them wanting to kill BW.
And even if that is ultimately their goal, it is still a way to push for the evolution of eSport, not to KILL eSport.
Newsflash, BW is a good eSport, but it's not EVERYTHING about eSport. Please see that your BW fanboyism is blinding you and at least try to move away from that when speaking logic.
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On October 28 2010 19:02 stafu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:56 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. Then, would you like to give me several reasons that show Blizzard DOES care about e-sports? Tell me now, before you label anyone a blind fanboy. You might want to change your signature. I think we can all agree that we can't really trust either side 100%. That said, I can't help but lean slightly more to Blizzard/Gretech's side after KeSPA's history of fuck-ups and their general tone of empty words whenever they make a statement like this.
My signature says I am a rabid fanboy of the BW AND SC2 proscene. Get your opinions right. I am neither a fan of Blizzard or Kespa, but Blizzard's attitude in this is despicable.
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On October 28 2010 19:04 ricerocket wrote: I still don't get what makes you think that their suing of KeSPA = them wanting to kill BW.
And even if that is ultimately their goal, it is still a way to push for the evolution of eSport, not to KILL eSport.
Newsflash, BW is a good eSport, but it's not EVERYTHING about eSport. Please see that your BW fanboyism is blinding you and at least try to move away from that when speaking logic.
That statement of yours alone show that you are indeed blind to what is really going on. *sigh* And you think I support only BW? Sorry, you are mistaken.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:04 ricerocket wrote: I still don't get what makes you think that their suing of KeSPA = them wanting to kill BW.
And even if that is ultimately their goal, it is still a way to push for the evolution of eSport, not to KILL eSport.
Newsflash, BW is a good eSport, but it's not EVERYTHING about eSport. Please see that your BW fanboyism is blinding you and at least try to move away from that when speaking logic.
I have argued the same thing that you are arguing right now,but the thing is if Blizzard wins KeSPA will essentially become bankrupt because Blizzard will just suck all of the money they have left.Unless blizzard can continue running BW the way KeSPA has BW will die.
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Hate both sides PR bullshit campaign, one minute KeSPA is playing dirty as hell - the next they are acting like little angels and it's all the same with Blizzard. Does my head in.
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After all this crap i rather some other game company other than blizzard be the one who pushes about eSports. Too much politics involved for it to even grow healthily. If blizzard is at the helm of this "eSports" revolution, I'm quite sure that eSports would grow ONLY if it benefitted them immensely.
^ and pretty much this. KeSPA has also been quite an asshole(couldn't find another appropriate word) who has been mucking up so many decisions. Just refer to recent proleagues for examples of KeSPA at work.
I shall stay out of this shitfest and just fervently hope proleague continues
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On October 28 2010 19:09 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:04 ricerocket wrote: I still don't get what makes you think that their suing of KeSPA = them wanting to kill BW.
And even if that is ultimately their goal, it is still a way to push for the evolution of eSport, not to KILL eSport.
Newsflash, BW is a good eSport, but it's not EVERYTHING about eSport. Please see that your BW fanboyism is blinding you and at least try to move away from that when speaking logic. I have argued the same thing that you are arguing right now,but the thing is if Blizzard wins KeSPA will essentially become bankrupt because Blizzard will just suck all of the money they have left.Unless blizzard can continue running BW the way KeSPA has BW will die. KeSPA is a NFP entity and have been running losses for the last few yrs. they have next to nothing in net assets.
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On October 28 2010 19:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all.
Do you even know what eSport is? It is SPECTATORSHIP! It's a competition for people to WATCH! You may be entirely correct that Blizz eventually wants the BW players and audiences to move to SC2, but that's not KILLING eSport, it's their attempt (be it to your liking or not) to move it forward. How? By making the thing easier on the eye, that's how!
I saw in another thread how someone thinks the BW scene will move underground after Blizz wins this lawsuit, and he's "all for it." What a joke, that's entirely the opposite of what eSport is supposed to be. BW is successful in Korea not because it's a niche market, but because it's mainstream. To attract larger audiences, both inside and beyond Korea, several things must be considered. And I'm sorry if this sounds vain, but pretty graphics is a VERY important element.
However, unlike what you guys may believe, Blizz is a top gaming company not because it's lucky, but because it's smart. One of the biggest draw for the fans of Blizz games is how interactive the company is with the fanbase and how respectful it is of us. This means they understand that it is BAD to piss off an entire country's fans of its games. I can not imagine that Blizz will shut down BW cold turkey in order to promote SC2, and I think it's hilarious that's what you guys all believe.
WAKE UP! geez
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On October 28 2010 19:04 ricerocket wrote: I still don't get what makes you think that their suing of KeSPA = them wanting to kill BW.
And even if that is ultimately their goal, it is still a way to push for the evolution of eSport, not to KILL eSport.
Newsflash, BW is a good eSport, but it's not EVERYTHING about eSport. Please see that your BW fanboyism is blinding you and at least try to move away from that when speaking logic.
Perhaps no, but how many people (players, coach, etc) who make a living out of BW pro scene?
This is the very reason that I believe we must support KeSPA, eventually not KeSPA itself but everybody in the pro-scene. If BW scene dies, I'm afraid that it will be difficult for all the players particularly to get an adequate jobs. I simply can't ignore the players after all their work to satisfy my hunger for high level gaming scene.
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I don't think that Blizzard does want to kill BW e-sports.
I just have a theory that Blizzard just wants the e-sports proscene in Korea to be more of a healthier lifestyle to the players. Their past donations and their plan to use any royalties (if any) in the future are targeted for the progamers to go to school or have an education.
Currently, it is very risky to be a BW progamer. You have to sacrifice a lot of your time and energy practicing to get good enough to compete. To the average progamer, it's an uncertain future, especially after when you get older. I don't see much progamers past mid-20s in age in BW e-sports, and moving into a commentator or coach position is not always guaranteed or certain.
The reason why I say this is because, I don't think Blizzard wants their game to be the game that may lead certain young individuals to lead a lifestyle that might affect them negatively in the future after their progaming life. Most of them start at teenage years which affects their education. If they practice instead of spending time on their education, who knows what other career opportunities they risk losing. It might make Blizzard look bad if other people see how BW affect these young individuals. I know, I know, it's the choice of the person to forgo this lifestyle, but still... it's because of the game. I just think that Blizzard doesn't want the progamers to devote so much time into gaming at such a young age.
Not saying I am right about this, just my opinion or idea...
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On October 28 2010 19:16 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all. Do you even know what eSport is? It is SPECTATORSHIP! It's a competition for people to WATCH! You may be entirely correct that Blizz eventually wants the BW players and audiences to move to SC2, but that's not KILLING eSport, it's their attempt (be it to your liking or not) to move it forward. How? By making the thing easier on the eye, that's how! I saw in another thread how someone thinks the BW scene will move underground after Blizz wins this lawsuit, and he's "all for it." What a joke, that's entirely the opposite of what eSport is supposed to be. BW is successful in Korea not because it's a niche market, but because it's mainstream. To attract larger audiences, both inside and beyond Korea, several things must be considered. And I'm sorry if this sounds vain, but pretty graphics is a VERY important element. However, unlike what you guys may believe, Blizz is a top gaming company not because it's lucky, but because it's smart. One of the biggest draw for the fans of Blizz games is how interactive the company is with the fanbase and how respectful it is of us. This means they understand that it is BAD to piss off an entire country's fans of its games. I can not imagine that Blizz will shut down BW cold turkey in order to promote SC2, and I think it's hilarious that's what you guys all believe. WAKE UP! geez
By FORCING BW progamers, teams, coaches and fans to switch to an entirely new game? We are talking about 10 years of devotion and practice to BW, a game in which they all love, including me. That is NOT evolution of e-sports on Blizzard's part.
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If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker?
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:19 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:16 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 19:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all. Do you even know what eSport is? It is SPECTATORSHIP! It's a competition for people to WATCH! You may be entirely correct that Blizz eventually wants the BW players and audiences to move to SC2, but that's not KILLING eSport, it's their attempt (be it to your liking or not) to move it forward. How? By making the thing easier on the eye, that's how! I saw in another thread how someone thinks the BW scene will move underground after Blizz wins this lawsuit, and he's "all for it." What a joke, that's entirely the opposite of what eSport is supposed to be. BW is successful in Korea not because it's a niche market, but because it's mainstream. To attract larger audiences, both inside and beyond Korea, several things must be considered. And I'm sorry if this sounds vain, but pretty graphics is a VERY important element. However, unlike what you guys may believe, Blizz is a top gaming company not because it's lucky, but because it's smart. One of the biggest draw for the fans of Blizz games is how interactive the company is with the fanbase and how respectful it is of us. This means they understand that it is BAD to piss off an entire country's fans of its games. I can not imagine that Blizz will shut down BW cold turkey in order to promote SC2, and I think it's hilarious that's what you guys all believe. WAKE UP! geez By FORCING BW progamers, teams, coaches and fans to switch to an entirely new game? We are talking about 10 years of devotion and practice to BW, a game in which they all love, including me. That is NOT evolution of e-sports on Blizzard's part. Everything SC2 is an evolution, apparently. How can we be so dumb not to understand that?
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On October 28 2010 19:24 ricerocket wrote: If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker?
So what you are saying is that we cannot have two DIFFERENT and viable e-sports, in this case, BW AND SC2. How hard can we as fans wish for both to continue together?
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Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over.
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On October 28 2010 19:24 ricerocket wrote: If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker? Stop trying to equate things which are clearly not equivalent.
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Stop showing your typing speed to be faster than your ability to think.
User was warned for this post
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On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. well... they did remove BW from Blizzcon. and GOM did want to be "compensated" for the broadcast time slots that Proleague games are taking away from the GSL.
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Just because Kespa is not making profit does not mean that they are exempt from paying Blizzard
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On October 28 2010 19:19 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:16 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 19:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all. Do you even know what eSport is? It is SPECTATORSHIP! It's a competition for people to WATCH! You may be entirely correct that Blizz eventually wants the BW players and audiences to move to SC2, but that's not KILLING eSport, it's their attempt (be it to your liking or not) to move it forward. How? By making the thing easier on the eye, that's how! I saw in another thread how someone thinks the BW scene will move underground after Blizz wins this lawsuit, and he's "all for it." What a joke, that's entirely the opposite of what eSport is supposed to be. BW is successful in Korea not because it's a niche market, but because it's mainstream. To attract larger audiences, both inside and beyond Korea, several things must be considered. And I'm sorry if this sounds vain, but pretty graphics is a VERY important element. However, unlike what you guys may believe, Blizz is a top gaming company not because it's lucky, but because it's smart. One of the biggest draw for the fans of Blizz games is how interactive the company is with the fanbase and how respectful it is of us. This means they understand that it is BAD to piss off an entire country's fans of its games. I can not imagine that Blizz will shut down BW cold turkey in order to promote SC2, and I think it's hilarious that's what you guys all believe. WAKE UP! geez By FORCING BW progamers, teams, coaches and fans to switch to an entirely new game? We are talking about 10 years of devotion and practice to BW, a game in which they all love, including me. That is NOT evolution of e-sports on Blizzard's part. Please read his last paragraph. Many people do not believe Blizzard will cold turkey BW, it's only KeSPA fanboys who do. They spread misinformation about Blizzard specifically wanting to kill BW citing their actions. (continuous negotiations for 3 years????) Blizzard isn't stupid. If people truly want to watch BW in/from Korea they will have it aired until it naturally dies out. Why any of you believe they won't is beyond me. They're known to run stuff at a loss for the fans. (Blizzcon)
On that note, I absolutely love how Blizzard's statements get shut down as "PR PR PR BULLSHIT LIES HATE HATE" and KeSPA's statements get "SEE THEY CARE! POOR GUYS." Funny stuff.
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On October 28 2010 19:33 b_unnies wrote: Just because Kespa is not making profit does not mean that they are exempt from paying Blizzard actually... yes they are exempt because of their NFP status.
since KeSPA is NFP they always pumped money back into developing the game but most of this development is like organizing teams, events, etc, but teams can disband, just like eSTRO. in other words, KeSPA has no money and very few assets that can be sold for cash. which is why Blizz realize there is no point in suing KeSPA and instead went after MBC.
so ya, if anything, its MBC that pays up.
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On October 28 2010 19:33 ricerocket wrote: Stop showing your typing speed to be faster than your ability to think. Resorting to ad hominem nice =]
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On October 28 2010 19:34 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:19 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 19:16 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 19:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all. Do you even know what eSport is? It is SPECTATORSHIP! It's a competition for people to WATCH! You may be entirely correct that Blizz eventually wants the BW players and audiences to move to SC2, but that's not KILLING eSport, it's their attempt (be it to your liking or not) to move it forward. How? By making the thing easier on the eye, that's how! I saw in another thread how someone thinks the BW scene will move underground after Blizz wins this lawsuit, and he's "all for it." What a joke, that's entirely the opposite of what eSport is supposed to be. BW is successful in Korea not because it's a niche market, but because it's mainstream. To attract larger audiences, both inside and beyond Korea, several things must be considered. And I'm sorry if this sounds vain, but pretty graphics is a VERY important element. However, unlike what you guys may believe, Blizz is a top gaming company not because it's lucky, but because it's smart. One of the biggest draw for the fans of Blizz games is how interactive the company is with the fanbase and how respectful it is of us. This means they understand that it is BAD to piss off an entire country's fans of its games. I can not imagine that Blizz will shut down BW cold turkey in order to promote SC2, and I think it's hilarious that's what you guys all believe. WAKE UP! geez By FORCING BW progamers, teams, coaches and fans to switch to an entirely new game? We are talking about 10 years of devotion and practice to BW, a game in which they all love, including me. That is NOT evolution of e-sports on Blizzard's part. Please read his last paragraph. Many people do not believe Blizzard will cold turkey BW, it's only KeSPA fanboys who do. They spread misinformation about Blizzard specifically wanting to kill BW citing their actions. ( continuous negotiations for 3 years????) Blizzard isn't stupid. If people truly want to watch BW in/from Korea they will have it aired until it naturally dies out. Why any of you believe they won't is beyond me. They're known to run stuff at a loss for the fans. (Blizzcon) On that note, I absolutely love how Blizzard's statements get shut down as "PR PR PR BULLSHIT LIES HATE HATE" and KeSPA's statements get "SEE THEY CARE! POOR GUYS." Funny stuff.
The real question here is, is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene if they win the lawsuit against MBC? If they shut down broadcasting of BW, Kespa will fall apart and there will be no new investments into the proscene due to no income from lack of broadcasting.
And that means the death of BW.
The answer is doubtful at best. Like someone else already mentioned, Blizzard stopped support for BW for years, and now it has been cut off from Blizzcon. What makes you think they will otherwise?
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:24 ricerocket wrote: If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker?
In order to prove that Chess masters are professional, lets force them to adapt to Go. I mean, they are not as dumb as construction workers, so I see no problem. /sarcasm. The games are wildly different, multitasking plays a much smaller role and army management as well. "adapting" takes a lot of effort, so I don't see why we would want that to happen in the first place unless there is no alternative.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:34 xBillehx wrote: They're known to run stuff at a loss for the fans. (Blizzcon)
Running an entire continuous event and the teams is not equivalent to running an annual event with people who have been trained and provided for by other organizations. Especially not money wise.
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Hungary11232 Posts
Please stop repeating all the pro Blizzard / pro Kespa arguments all over again, and above all, stop getting at each other's throats. This news update is very much appreciated but should not be used as a pretense to bring up all the hate again.
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On October 28 2010 19:43 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:24 ricerocket wrote: If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker? In order to prove that Chess masters are professional, lets force them to adapt to Go. I mean, they are not as dumb as construction workers, so I see no problem. /sarcasm. The games are wildly different, multitasking plays a much smaller role and army management as well. "adapting" takes a lot of effort, so I don't see why we would want that to happen in the first place unless there is no alternative.
Comparing SC to Chess. As much as I love the game, I really dwarf in front of the rabid fanboyism shown here.
The fact is both chess masters and computer programers exist as professions, not because of the merit of each craft but because of the market potential and financial support. As long as there is an audience for BW, it will always be there for you to watch no matter what organization is behind it.
What you all fanboys fear to death is that the natural progression of the market will naturally shift from BW to SC2, and that's what you try to stop by hoping Blizz will lose this suit.
And the irony in that is suffocating.
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On October 28 2010 19:49 Aesop wrote: Please stop repeating all the pro Blizzard / pro Kespa arguments all over again, and above all, stop getting at each other's throats. This news update is very much appreciated but should not be used as a pretense to bring up all the hate again.
I will respect your opinion on this. I am tired of arguing anyway, but sorry for making you frustrated. =3
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On October 28 2010 19:42 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:34 xBillehx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:19 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 19:16 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 19:02 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 18:54 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 18:50 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely. That is a distorted statement you are making. Look at the quote below: "KeSPA has re-invested the entirety of the broadcasting fees into the operations of the league. While KeSPA is a non profit organization that supports and raises the eSports industry, it can run profitable endeavors to promote a safe environment and to bolster eSports." Whether by choice, or by default, Kespa clearly shows enough goodwill to at least promote the growth of e-sports, no matter their shortcomings. Does it even matter whether Kespa is a non-profit organization or not? Compare their stance on e-sports to Blizzard's; do you really think Blizzard cares about e-sports at all, judging from how they are basically threatening the current BW proscene to extinction? Blizzard doesn't care about eSport? Wow, I don't think I can win an argument with you if that's what you truly believe. I feel sorry for you, being blinded by fanboyism like that. you seem to be blinded too.Blizzard may care about Esports but as far as I can tell,they aren't showing it at all. Do you even know what eSport is? It is SPECTATORSHIP! It's a competition for people to WATCH! You may be entirely correct that Blizz eventually wants the BW players and audiences to move to SC2, but that's not KILLING eSport, it's their attempt (be it to your liking or not) to move it forward. How? By making the thing easier on the eye, that's how! I saw in another thread how someone thinks the BW scene will move underground after Blizz wins this lawsuit, and he's "all for it." What a joke, that's entirely the opposite of what eSport is supposed to be. BW is successful in Korea not because it's a niche market, but because it's mainstream. To attract larger audiences, both inside and beyond Korea, several things must be considered. And I'm sorry if this sounds vain, but pretty graphics is a VERY important element. However, unlike what you guys may believe, Blizz is a top gaming company not because it's lucky, but because it's smart. One of the biggest draw for the fans of Blizz games is how interactive the company is with the fanbase and how respectful it is of us. This means they understand that it is BAD to piss off an entire country's fans of its games. I can not imagine that Blizz will shut down BW cold turkey in order to promote SC2, and I think it's hilarious that's what you guys all believe. WAKE UP! geez By FORCING BW progamers, teams, coaches and fans to switch to an entirely new game? We are talking about 10 years of devotion and practice to BW, a game in which they all love, including me. That is NOT evolution of e-sports on Blizzard's part. Please read his last paragraph. Many people do not believe Blizzard will cold turkey BW, it's only KeSPA fanboys who do. They spread misinformation about Blizzard specifically wanting to kill BW citing their actions. ( continuous negotiations for 3 years????) Blizzard isn't stupid. If people truly want to watch BW in/from Korea they will have it aired until it naturally dies out. Why any of you believe they won't is beyond me. They're known to run stuff at a loss for the fans. (Blizzcon) On that note, I absolutely love how Blizzard's statements get shut down as "PR PR PR BULLSHIT LIES HATE HATE" and KeSPA's statements get "SEE THEY CARE! POOR GUYS." Funny stuff. The real question here is, is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene if they win the lawsuit against MBC? If they shut down broadcasting of BW, Kespa will fall apart and there will be no new investments into the proscene due to no income from lack of broadcasting. The answer is doubtful at best. Like someone else already mentioned, Blizzard stopped support for BW for years, and now it has been cut off from Blizzcon. What makes you think they will otherwise? Do you know of any famous BW players that would have traveled to Blizzcon for a BW tournament? Every big foreigner switched over, and KeSPA players would have obviously refused to go considering the situation. The fans there wanted their favorite pro gamers, of which only those who switched Starcraft 2 were willing to come, and that's what they got. (Boxer <3)
Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest.
Edit: To get away from arguing:
One thing I am kind of confused in, KeSPA says negotiations haven't stopped. We have a spotlighted news post saying it has. Which one is it? Have negotiations broken down?
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South Korea has been known to have low Intellectual Property laws and enforcement compared to other countries.
The World Trade Organization and the United States have worked with South Korea to improve their IP laws on mulitple occasions. The United States have threaten to have trade sanctions against South Korea in the past if they did not amend their IP laws. They have made huge amendments in their IP laws in the mid 1980s, in 2003, and in 2007, although even as of today, they still have problems, and not just about this case either.
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On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over.
Why was there no Brood War at Blizzcon this year? The problem is that Brood War is competition for SC2. Even though it is their own product it is unfortunately in Blizzard's interest to kill off Brood War in Korea leaving Starcraft 2 as the only alternative.
Why? Control. Blizzard has 100% control over what happens in Starcraft 2 because everything has to go through (the horrible) battle.net. With control brings money. If Blizzard stays in control they can demand whatever broadcasting fees they want. If the SC2 scene is successful they stand to make a LOT of money. If it fizzles then they don't lose anything because it is not them making the investments.
It's sad, but can you honestly say you can't see the logic behind what Blizzard is doing?
I have been a long time Blizzard fan ever since Diablo 1. I own multiple copies of SC/Brood War, Diablo 2, 3 WoW Accounts and the SC2 CE. So yeah, I love Blizzard and Blizzard games. I think Starcraft 2 is a good game but it has far too many shortcomings to replace Brood War.
Think about this. If Starcraft 2 was truly an improvement and was genuinely better than Brood War they would not have to bother trying to kill off the competition, it would naturally take it's place as the premier choice for RTS and ESPORTS. Instead we have a situation where Blizzard wants to force Starcraft 2 as the only choice and in doing so destroy the only sustainable ESPORTS infrastructure.
The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene.
So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side.
I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years:
Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever?
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On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene.
and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:50 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:43 mustaju wrote:On October 28 2010 19:24 ricerocket wrote: If my job is a computer programer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right?
Part of being a professional is the ability to adapt, or do you think all those progamers have the same intelligence required for a construction worker? In order to prove that Chess masters are professional, lets force them to adapt to Go. I mean, they are not as dumb as construction workers, so I see no problem. /sarcasm. The games are wildly different, multitasking plays a much smaller role and army management as well. "adapting" takes a lot of effort, so I don't see why we would want that to happen in the first place unless there is no alternative. Comparing SC to Chess. As much as I love the game, I really dwarf in front of the rabid fanboyism shown here. The fact is both chess masters and computer programers exist as professions, not because of the merit of each craft but because of the market potential and financial support. As long as there is an audience for BW, it will always be there for you to watch no matter what organization is behind it. What you all fanboys fear to death is that the natural progression of the market will naturally shift from BW to SC2, and that's what you try to stop by hoping Blizz will lose this suit. And the irony in that is suffocating.
the thing is that a lot of people have accepted that if BW dies a natural death they would accept it.
its really not fanboyism its just confusion and outrage.
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On October 28 2010 19:55 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. Why was there no Brood War at Blizzcon this year? The problem is that Brood War is competition for SC2. Even though it is their own product it is unfortunately in Blizzard's interest to kill off Brood War in Korea leaving Starcraft 2 as the only alternative. Why? Control. Blizzard has 100% control over what happens in Starcraft 2 because everything has to go through (the horrible) battle.net. With control brings money. If Blizzard stays in control they can demand whatever broadcasting fees they want. If the SC2 scene is successful they stand to make a LOT of money. If it fizzles then they don't lose anything because it is not them making the investments. It's sad, but can you honestly say you can't see the logic behind what Blizzard is doing? I have been a long time Blizzard fan ever since Diablo 1. I own multiple copies of SC/Brood War, Diablo 2, 3 WoW Accounts and the SC2 CE. So yeah, I love Blizzard and Blizzard games. I think Starcraft 2 is a good game but it has far too many shortcomings to replace Brood War. Think about this. If Starcraft 2 was truly an improvement and was genuinely better than Brood War they would not have to bother trying to kill off the competition, it would naturally take it's place as the premier choice for RTS and ESPORTS. Instead we have a situation where Blizzard wants to force Starcraft 2 as the only choice and in doing so destroy the only sustainable ESPORTS infrastructure. The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene. So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side. I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years: Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever?
I'm not disputing that Blizz wants SC2 to eventually replace BW, I'm disputing the disgusting fear-mongering here that Blizz wants to shut down BW before its fan support dies out by itself.
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On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene?
Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more and also as a thank you, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"?
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Natural progression indeed. forcing BW out of primetime slots and sueing broadcasting companys.
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On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"?
I do not appreciate you putting Blizzard in such a positive light. Blizzard and Kespa are both not as angelic as we make them out to be. However, I would say Kespa is the lesser evil here; you have to understand why a lot of people dissent Blizzard, including me. They are certainly not trustworthy, that much is a fact.
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That much is your opinion. Since when has the trait of "trustworthiness" become fallible?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 19:55 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene. So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side. I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years: Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever?
its understandable that you fear if SC2 can succeed BW,but if it did wouldn't it be nice for E-sports?
What I'm trying to say is that you fear the death of BW more than anything and refuse to see the growth of E-sports.
We don't know whats going to happen,GOM might want to run a BW tourney and they have every right to.
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On October 28 2010 20:09 cocoa_sg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"? I do not appreciate you putting Blizzard in such a positive light. Blizzard and Kespa are both not as angelic as we make them out to be. However, I would say Kespa is the lesser evil here; you have to understand why a lot of people dissent Blizzard, including me. They are certainly not trustworthy, that much is a fact. I don't necessarily believe Blizzard is angelic. I believe theres room for compromise on both sides. I do not appreciate the people who put Blizzard (and solely Blizzard) in such a negative light either. I think they are clearly capable to do things right, and thus I post explanations why I think so. Is there the option they screw things up? Sure, but theres also the option that they do things right, and thats what the "ZOMG BLIZZARD KILL ESPORTS" people tend to ignore.
However, you also have to understand why a lot of people dissent KeSPA as well. If you've been following the scene for years now, they've proven way beyond Blizzard that they aren't trustworthy.
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On October 28 2010 20:16 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:09 cocoa_sg wrote:On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:58 dybydx wrote:On October 28 2010 19:51 xBillehx wrote: Is Blizzard willing to reinvest into the BW proscene? I don't know, and neither does anyone else, that also goes for the people who claim Blizzard will kill BW. However taking into consideration that they do run things at a loss for fans, it's not far fetched to believe that they would reinvest. well, kespa claims they have reinvested all the surplus back into the scene. and no, blizzard doesn't run things at a loss for fans. blizzard has been generating net income each year for a LONG time. and their losses at blizzcon doesnt count. blizzcon is a marketing event. its not called a loss, its called costs to run a business. Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"? I do not appreciate you putting Blizzard in such a positive light. Blizzard and Kespa are both not as angelic as we make them out to be. However, I would say Kespa is the lesser evil here; you have to understand why a lot of people dissent Blizzard, including me. They are certainly not trustworthy, that much is a fact. I don't necessarily believe Blizzard is angelic. I believe theres room for compromise on both sides. I do not appreciate the people who put Blizzard (and solely Blizzard) in such a negative light either. I think they are clearly capable to do things right, and thus I post explanations why I think so. Is there the option they screw things up? Sure, but theres also the option that they do things right, and thats what the "ZOMG BLIZZARD KILL ESPORTS" people tend to ignore. However, you also have to understand why a lot of people dissent KeSPA as well. If you've been following the scene for years now, they've proven way beyond Blizzard that they aren't trustworthy.
Yet, BW still lives on after 10 years, no matter Kespa's shortcomings. And for that, we are grateful. I do not wish to argue with you anymore on this, see you.
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On October 28 2010 18:44 ricerocket wrote: Haha, what's with that holier-than-thou attitude about being a non-profit? Especially since, from what they've said in the press release, it's not that they don't want profit, it's that they've yet to make enough investment in the infrastructure to turn a profit. So they are non-profit not by choice but by default. Lovely.
You obviously don't know what non-profit means. Being in the deficit doesn't mean you're a non-profit organization. It just means you're bad business. Non-profit just means that there's no private owners and that surplus profit won't be distributed to the board members but kept for the betterment of the organization. In short, as a non-profit organization, surplus money gained by KeSPA will be spent on e-sports.
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Read the press release first, will you?
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On October 28 2010 20:06 xBillehx wrote:Right, since when can Blizzard not do the same and reinvest the surplus (+more?) back into the scene? Lets take your costs of business idea. Blizzard is a company that loves it's fans. To make it's fans support them even more and also as a thank you, they do run Blizzcon. Where, using this logic, does Blizzard benefit by killing the BW scene? Continuing the BW scene would cause people to support them (marketing). In fact it'd win over most of the anti-Blizzard people instantly if they did continue the BW procene. Wouldn't, using your idea (which isn't invalid), they also see the continued BW proscene for it's fans as "costs to run a business"? blizz CAN invest into BW but they have no reason to, especially with SC2 out.
the ultimate goal of Blizz is profit. making the fans happy and growing eSport are secondary objectives. it is in the best interest of Blizz's shareholders to kill off BW because, as GOM pointed out, BW competes against SC2 for those precious time slots on air, and SC2 has far more revenue generating potentials than BW.
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Sigh, I realize a lot of gamers are poor, but being poor is no excuse for that pathetic peasant mentality. Making money =/= being evil, and non-profit =/= charity. KeSPA reinvests their earnings back to the community in order to, according to themselves, build up an infrastructure for eSport that can become a profitable business in the future.
And that's admirable. Unfortunately, it seems like they have failed, or what else do you call a market with such a large following for 10 years and still see red?
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On October 28 2010 20:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 19:55 vek wrote:On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene. So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side. I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years: Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever? its understandable that you fear if SC2 can succeed BW,but if it did wouldn't it be nice for E-sports? What I'm trying to say is that you fear the death of BW more than anything and refuse to see the growth of E-sports. We don't know whats going to happen,GOM might want to run a BW tourney and they have every right to.
I'd be really happy if Starcraft 2 became a huge success on the merits of being a great game. The problem I have at the moment is that it's only a good game. I play Starcraft 2 more than Brood War these days BUT mostly custom games or team games with friends. I find the units boring and one dimensional. In turn find spectating Starcraft 2 boring. Even boxers games (though slightly more entertaining than others) just aren't that interesting to watch when you've seen the same MMM and Tank micro hundreds of times before and that is pretty much the only depth the game has.
In contrast, watching FBH TvT in PL the other day was an absolute treat and I loved every minute of it.
I dislike how Blizzard is forcing Starcraft 2 as the only choice. I would much prefer if they said "hey we see the problems with the game, we would like to improve them so it can be the very best game ever".
I want Starcraft 2 to be better than Brood War.
Edit: Also I think the GSL is a huge step backwards in terms of ESPORTS as a sustainable system. What I think SC2 really needs in terms of ESPORTS is an organised team based league... But really the game just needs to become more interesting for people to watch. Once it is interesting for more people to watch growth will be natural.
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On October 28 2010 20:38 vek wrote: I would much prefer if they said "hey we see the problems with the game, we would like to improve them so it can be the very best game ever".
........... i don't even know what to say to you
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 20:38 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 19:55 vek wrote:On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene. So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side. I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years: Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever? its understandable that you fear if SC2 can succeed BW,but if it did wouldn't it be nice for E-sports? What I'm trying to say is that you fear the death of BW more than anything and refuse to see the growth of E-sports. We don't know whats going to happen,GOM might want to run a BW tourney and they have every right to. I'd be really happy if Starcraft 2 became a huge success on the merits of being a great game. The problem I have at the moment is that it's only a good game. I play Starcraft 2 more than Brood War these days BUT mostly custom games or team games with friends. I find the units boring and one dimensional. In turn find spectating Starcraft 2 boring. Even boxers games (though slightly more entertaining than others) just aren't that interesting to watch when you've seen the same MMM and Tank micro hundreds of times before and that is pretty much the only depth the game has. In contrast, watching FBH TvT in PL the other day was an absolute treat and I loved every minute of it. I dislike how Blizzard is forcing Starcraft 2 as the only choice. I would much prefer if they said "hey we see the problems with the game, we would like to improve them so it can be the very best game ever". I want Starcraft 2 to be better than Brood War.
I completely agree with you but I really think that our look at the game right now is too shallow I think SC2 will grow in depth.
I have this really retarded theory that Gretech wants to buy out OGN and MBC.Does anyone know if it could actually work/happen?
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The problem with Blizzard filing a lawsuit against KeSPA is more due to the fact that there are so many other parties involved in it rather than it being a NPO. You can still file lawsuits against a Non-Profit-Organization like a For-Profit-Organization if there is enough cause for damages and/or violations of laws/civil contracts.
I wonder who or what Blizzard will file a lawsuit in KeSPA.
Anyways, if you want to see Korea's IP laws here it is:
Korean Copyright IP Laws
Copyright is part of IP Law if you don't understand. Have fun!
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uhhhh, did Kespa just admit to using IEG as a shell corporation to generate paper losses, thus making Proleague a corporate tax evasion scheme? That's the first thing that came to my mind when I saw them taking fees and reinvesting them to be supposedly revenue neutral.
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On October 28 2010 20:42 ricerocket wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:38 vek wrote: I would much prefer if they said "hey we see the problems with the game, we would like to improve them so it can be the very best game ever".
........... i don't even know what to say to you
So the game is flawless? Units like Roaches, Marauders, Collossus etc make for dynamic gameplay?
My opinion is that many of the units in SC2 are just plain boring, they need more variety and control options. Positional play needs to be given a bigger emphasis. I don't find the majority of broadcast SC2 matches very interesting at all.
If you disagree it helps if you say why rather than make pointless replies.
I should have expanded on my original point in that previous post but there you have it.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 20:44 Pleiades wrote:The problem with Blizzard filing a lawsuit against KeSPA is more due to the fact that there are so many other parties involved in it rather than it being a NPO. You can still file lawsuits against a Non-Profit-Organization like a For-Profit-Organization if there is enough cause for damages and/or violations of laws/civil contracts. I wonder who or what Blizzard will file a lawsuit in KeSPA. Anyways, if you want to see Korea's IP laws here it is: Korean Copyright IP LawsCopyright is part of IP Law if you don't understand. Have fun!
dude...they aren't suing KeSPA,but just MBC(hopefully not OGN too)
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On October 28 2010 20:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:38 vek wrote:On October 28 2010 20:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 19:55 vek wrote:On October 28 2010 19:29 ricerocket wrote: Once again, it's hilarious you guys think Blizz will just shut down BW after they take it over. The current SC2 infrastructure is not sustainable, to me it is looking like a fad that will quickly peak in popularity and then fade into nothing just like Halo, CoD, WC3 have already done. Brood War is the only game that has proven it's worth as a game that can stand the test of time because of the fantastic gameplay and excellent professional scene. So yeah, I'm on KeSPA's side. I only really have 2 question left that will be answered in the coming years: Can Brood War survive the wrath of it's own creator? Will Starcraft 2 ever evolve into a worthy successor to the greatest RTS ever? its understandable that you fear if SC2 can succeed BW,but if it did wouldn't it be nice for E-sports? What I'm trying to say is that you fear the death of BW more than anything and refuse to see the growth of E-sports. We don't know whats going to happen,GOM might want to run a BW tourney and they have every right to. I'd be really happy if Starcraft 2 became a huge success on the merits of being a great game. The problem I have at the moment is that it's only a good game. I play Starcraft 2 more than Brood War these days BUT mostly custom games or team games with friends. I find the units boring and one dimensional. In turn find spectating Starcraft 2 boring. Even boxers games (though slightly more entertaining than others) just aren't that interesting to watch when you've seen the same MMM and Tank micro hundreds of times before and that is pretty much the only depth the game has. In contrast, watching FBH TvT in PL the other day was an absolute treat and I loved every minute of it. I dislike how Blizzard is forcing Starcraft 2 as the only choice. I would much prefer if they said "hey we see the problems with the game, we would like to improve them so it can be the very best game ever". I want Starcraft 2 to be better than Brood War. I completely agree with you but I really think that our look at the game right now is too shallow I think SC2 will grow in depth. I have this really retarded theory that Gretech wants to buy out OGN and MBC.Does anyone know if it could actually work/happen? I don't think it makes much sense for Gretech to buy out OGN seeing as CJ has stakes in both companys.
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On October 28 2010 20:47 vek wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:42 ricerocket wrote:On October 28 2010 20:38 vek wrote: I would much prefer if they said "hey we see the problems with the game, we would like to improve them so it can be the very best game ever".
........... i don't even know what to say to you So the game is flawless? Units like Roaches, Marauders, Collossus etc make for dynamic gameplay? My opinion is that many of the units in SC2 are just plain boring, they need more variety and control options. Positional play needs to be given a bigger emphasis. I don't find the majority of broadcast SC2 matches very interesting at all. If you disagree it helps if you say why rather than make pointless replies. I should have expanded on my original point in that previous post but there you have it.
.... no, "hey we see the problems with the game, we would like to improve them so it can be the very best game ever"?
Dustin Browder basically said that word for word during the multiplayer panel in Blizzcon 2010
and you call yourself a fan >.>
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I know they're not suing KeSPA, but I'm just stating the reason why they haven't yet. It's kind of hard to file a lawsuit against a organization like KeSPA, because there are so many parties involved.
That's why they're going after MBC, and maybe OGN, because it's easier to handle those parties. Plus, it's also a good legal tactic.
BTW, I am an undergraduate Stanford Law Student going into International Law, specifically WCO and IP law.
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I see that the PR battle is heating up, with all the major parties (except OGN) releasing statements recently. Hope MBC/OGN can pull through this and continue to supply us with awesome BW matches.
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
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France2061 Posts
On October 28 2010 20:29 ricerocket wrote: Sigh, I realize a lot of gamers are poor, but being poor is no excuse for that pathetic peasant mentality. Making money =/= being evil, and non-profit =/= charity. KeSPA reinvests their earnings back to the community in order to, according to themselves, build up an infrastructure for eSport that can become a profitable business in the future.
And that's admirable. Unfortunately, it seems like they have failed, or what else do you call a market with such a large following for 10 years and still see red?
You have no idea what you're talking about. KeSPA is a non-profit, an advertising venture, which means they must reinvest any profit into the scene. They don't intend to turn into a profitable business, since they're simply a group of sponsors; when they say they can't make a profit it means that they're running a deficit and thus don't even make a profit that they can reinvest, not that they intend to make a profit in the future.
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Poll: Which one are youBlizz will kill SCWB (39) 67% Blizz just wants the IP rights recognized and sincerely wants BW scene to live on (14) 24% SCBW must to die so SC2 can succeed in Koera (5) 9% I'm not sure what Blizz wants (0) 0% 58 total votes Your vote: Which one are you (Vote): SCBW must to die so SC2 can succeed in Koera (Vote): Blizz just wants the IP rights recognized and sincerely wants BW scene to live on (Vote): I'm not sure what Blizz wants (Vote): Blizz will kill SCWB
Maybe we can analyze a little bit groups of people here on TL. We can easily devide all the people in two groups. The ones who want SCBW to die so SC2 can become bigger in Korea (which is by all means a valid reason) and the ones who want SCBW to live on. I'm not going to divide the first group any further. The second group can be divided into three additional groups, people who believe Blizz is just protecting their IP rights and sincerely wants the game to live on (and compete for air time and audience with BW), those who are not sure whether Blizz wants to kill SCBW and those who believe this will mean the death of SCBW. Which one are you?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
^ Do not vote in that poll it divides the community only leading to mindless arguments
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On October 28 2010 22:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: ^ Do not vote in that poll it divides the community only leading to mindless arguments
I instantly voted in the poll when I saw it but when I took a closer look I have to second this viewpoint.
The poll will probably end up derailing the thread.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 22:09 Loanshark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: ^ Do not vote in that poll it divides the community only leading to mindless arguments I instantly voted in the poll when I saw it but when I took a closer look I have to second this viewpoint. The poll will probably end up derailing the thread.
That is one dangerous poll.
EDIT: lol SCWB....its SCBW.
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i hope i die before bw does.
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On October 28 2010 21:59 snowdrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:29 ricerocket wrote: Sigh, I realize a lot of gamers are poor, but being poor is no excuse for that pathetic peasant mentality. Making money =/= being evil, and non-profit =/= charity. KeSPA reinvests their earnings back to the community in order to, according to themselves, build up an infrastructure for eSport that can become a profitable business in the future.
And that's admirable. Unfortunately, it seems like they have failed, or what else do you call a market with such a large following for 10 years and still see red? You have no idea what you're talking about. KeSPA is a non-profit, an advertising venture, which means they must reinvest any profit into the scene. They don't intend to turn into a profitable business, since they're simply a group of sponsors; when they say they can't make a profit it means that they're running a deficit and thus don't even make a profit that they can reinvest, not that they intend to make a profit in the future.
Please google this phrase: "what is the function of advertisement?"
Also, check out the movie called "Quiz Show" and see who made the American TV industry boom in the 1950s. Hint: they started out as a group of non-profit sponsors.
KNOWLEDGE IS POWER!
User was temp banned for this post.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 22:17 wishbones wrote: i hope i die before bw does.
:D me too....all good things must come to an end...but not for another 100 years please.
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wow, it's like a zombie movie in here
i think i better bail before i get bitten
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Thanks very much for the translation. It gives a good outlook and thinking of the both sides and their thoughts.
I just hope Proleague, OSL and MSL will continue to run the same way and it doesn't get interrupted at all though I feel that may very much happen....
On October 28 2010 22:25 ricerocket wrote: wow, it's like a zombie movie in here
i think i better bail before i get bitten
Just wanting to make an extra comment here. ricerocket, please be respectful to other people in TL and stop making destructive criticism to every single post you make to comment others. Seriously...
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On October 28 2010 21:59 snowdrift wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 20:29 ricerocket wrote: Sigh, I realize a lot of gamers are poor, but being poor is no excuse for that pathetic peasant mentality. Making money =/= being evil, and non-profit =/= charity. KeSPA reinvests their earnings back to the community in order to, according to themselves, build up an infrastructure for eSport that can become a profitable business in the future.
And that's admirable. Unfortunately, it seems like they have failed, or what else do you call a market with such a large following for 10 years and still see red? You have no idea what you're talking about. KeSPA is a non-profit, an advertising venture, which means they must reinvest any profit into the scene. They don't intend to turn into a profitable business, since they're simply a group of sponsors; when they say they can't make a profit it means that they're running a deficit and thus don't even make a profit that they can reinvest, not that they intend to make a profit in the future.
He didn't imply that KeSPA itself would be a profitable business, more that the eSports industry was self sustaining and viewed as a profitable place for investment and even if you ignore that, a non-profit running at a significant deficit for multiple years is still significant in of itself with regards to any long or short term sustainability. The higher charges KeSPA has to pass onto teams and broadcasters the less cost efficient the advertising becomes (the TV stations would more than likely have to increase the price of advertising) and at a certain point it would result in a complete collapse anyway.
We don't know what the actual production costs of the proleague are, whether KeSPA only manages the rules and organisational side of it, or also manages the TV production and spectator sport side of things. We don't know whether KeSPA have been managed by a superstar executive with a heart of gold or a brainless nitwit with a penchant for pagentry. As interesting as this statement is, it's still going to be pointless to try and establish accountability for this whole kerfuffle and what each side's motives are going forward because we just don't know enough information.
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Just wanting to make an extra comment here. ricerocket, please be respectful to other people in TL and stop making destructive criticism to every single post you make to comment others. Seriously...
Apologies, it's just hard to stay peachy when every rebuttal is a fanatical "you don't know what you are talking about" instead of at least an attempt at thinking logically.
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On October 28 2010 22:09 Loanshark wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:04 BLinD-RawR wrote: ^ Do not vote in that poll it divides the community only leading to mindless arguments I instantly voted in the poll when I saw it but when I took a closer look I have to second this viewpoint. The poll will probably end up derailing the thread.
My intention with the poll was not to divide the community because I truly believe that no one here wants SCBW to die. I have been reading these kinds of threads for quite some time now and I just wanted to know what majority of TL-netizens think. The thing that suprised me the most in this thread is the people not caring whether SCBW dies and calling it natural evolution of some king. How can it be natural when you need the creator of the game to kill it.
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I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though..
I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins..
Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T
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Kespa might be non-profit and reivenst all the funds back into bw, however the companies behind Kespa are profiting from BW industry. Very dumb to believe that BW industry is in red numbers and everybody is just losing/investing money into it. No way they would hold this business for so long if it was that bad how they say it is. If you look at any medialized sport in the world, it looks like it can't actually make more than is invested into it, but the opposite is the truth.
I have to laugh hard when Blizzard is saying they have no intention to kill bw and they want to continue supporting both games. How fucking dumb has someone to be to believe this bullshit. Look at it from their view. They are huge company caring pretty much about profit. They have a new game SC2 which is totally under their control and the main goal of this game is to make money. On the other hand they have very old game which they probably love, but this game is not making any considerable profit for them (cost like 15 bucks and hardly bought anywhere in the world nowadays). What the sane company would do is try to slowly replace the old but loved by many people game and try to make it that they have nothing to do with it to not piss off their fans and actually prevent them from buying their new game and that's what they are doing here.
Bw players and scene equals less SC2 players and smaller scene - in South Korea. You would be stupid to not think that Blizzard wants to get the old no-profiting game for them out of the table. Also they want to get share of the profits coming from progaming (that actually don't exist according to Kespa). Everything here is just business and they don't really care about fans or e-sports. They do care as long as they see bigger profit in it, that's what companies do.....
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T
actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them.
I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom.
to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues.
Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA.
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On October 28 2010 22:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them. I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom. to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues. Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA.
GomTV would then have to support all the progaming teams because who in their right mind (talking about Koreans) would want to watch some amateurs play on some obscure internet stream. O_o
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On October 28 2010 20:44 Pleiades wrote:The problem with Blizzard filing a lawsuit against KeSPA is more due to the fact that there are so many other parties involved in it rather than it being a NPO. You can still file lawsuits against a Non-Profit-Organization like a For-Profit-Organization if there is enough cause for damages and/or violations of laws/civil contracts. I wonder who or what Blizzard will file a lawsuit in KeSPA. Anyways, if you want to see Korea's IP laws here it is: Korean Copyright IP LawsCopyright is part of IP Law if you don't understand. Have fun! Not sueing KeSPA. Also IP laws are same in any country that follow the international law, it's just worded differently. They are sueing the stations that aired Blizzard products. The problem is not a simple open and shut IP case. Facts: - Blizzard did not give rights to the stations to use their products to profit financially - However Blizzard did not intervene as they were getting free advertisements (also profited well, looking at the SC sales in Korea) - Blizzard even invited proleague players to Blizzcon (Blizzard was aware and allowed the broadcasting stations keep airing)
Looking at the facts, The problem is not just IP rights, it's whether Blizzard and the broadcasting stations have implied a contract.
Factors to consider: - Has Blizzard allowed the broadcasting companies to use their product? What was their intention? - Has Blizzard shown any intention to stop the product to be used in the future when their product was allegedly misused? - What is the business custom for video game broadcasting? - Has Blizzard encouraged this implied agreement? (e.g. inviting proleague players)
This is not a simple case, I hope they go to court... I would love to know how this case will turn out.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 22:54 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them. I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom. to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues. Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA. GomTV would then have to support all the progaming teams because who in their right mind (talking about Koreans) would want to watch some amateurs play on some obscure internet stream. O_o
well my hypothetical situation wasn't fully thought out but,the sad and unfortunate truth is that Progamers whould go wherever the money and the viewership is...and maybe Gom might get its own TV station...I don't know.
This is only a hypothetical situation and I do understand that you are being sarcastic.
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I can understand people thinking that Blizzard will kill the SC:BW scene. There are some facts that may indicate that.
However, can we please stop saying that they will kill e-sports. That is the last thing they want to do. If they do kill BW and grow SC2 the way they have been, e-sports will skyrocket to places BW never dreamed (or will ever achieve). There is an infinitely higher audience for SC2 than BW. Not to mention that Blizzard will get a shit-load of advertising and profits from a stronger e-sport establishment. ON TOP OF ALL THAT, they have been supporting a shitty competitive game (WoW) for 5 years now which is infinitely worse than BW and SC2. They don't want to kill e-sports, and thats in a business point of view.
The other idiotic argument is that BW > SC2. Every day I watch tournaments, we see new innovative stuff made by the players. Just saw the Idra game today which was the first time I saw
+ Show Spoiler +a player making 3 overseers and contaminating the hatcheries of Idra to stop larva injects.
This game has been out for a couple of months. There are changes coming every month or 2. There are TWO expansions coming. Even if this was 5 years after release, I would say "give it more time". If you are comparing 10 years of development (not just from the game design perspective, but from players and maps), then you have to give that much time to this game as well. It is only fair that we do so. The game has not been stagnant. Its been developing and I never see the same strategy two weeks later.
Of course, it can be true that you prefer BW over SC2 in its current state, and that is perfectly fine. But don't pretend that if SC2 becomes the better game (which it very well could), the e-sports scene would not significantly prosper. It can even do that without being a better game (as is the case right now). Realistically though (and from what I've read), the BW numbers have been going down. Its not like real sports where you can market somewhere and people might like it. The game is very good, but very outdated. It would never be able to escape the borders of Korea (Finals in China don't mean much... its 1 event). SC2, on the other hand, has already captivated a national audience.
Anyway, I hope BW and SC2 both flourish and that this drama ends very soon.
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On October 28 2010 22:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them. I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom. to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues. Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA.
No one cares who will run the leagues. The question is who will pay the salaries of progamers. I'm sure Gretech and Blizz won't. KeSPA surly won't if it's not allowed to organize the leagues. No progamers, no SCBW. It's that simple.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 23:02 nimoraca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them. I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom. to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues. Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA. No one cares who will run the leagues. The question is who will pay the salaries of progamers. I'm sure Gretech and Blizz won't. KeSPA surly won't if it's not allowed to organize the leagues. No progamers, no SCBW. It's that simple.
Maybe a new system could be run,maybe KeSPA will end up supporting Gretech.
I'm wishing for too much but I want people to understand that its not impossible.
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On October 28 2010 23:02 nimoraca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them. I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom. to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues. Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA. No one cares who will run the leagues. The question is who will pay the salaries of progamers. I'm sure Gretech and Blizz won't. KeSPA surly won't if it's not allowed to organize the leagues. No progamers, no SCBW. It's that simple. KeSPA is a separate entity than the sponsors themselves. The sponsors are part of the board, but it's not the KeSPA organization who writes the checks, it's the sponsors directly. KT, Wemade, & SKT still get benefits from having their names plastered on prime-time television. Why in the world can this not continue?
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On October 28 2010 23:02 nimoraca wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 22:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them. I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom. to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues. Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA. No one cares who will run the leagues. The question is who will pay the salaries of progamers. I'm sure Gretech and Blizz won't. KeSPA surly won't if it's not allowed to organize the leagues. No progamers, no SCBW. It's that simple.
THIS. This is the fear that BW fans have currently, including me. Will Blizzard be even willing to support the ENTIRE existing infrastructure of the BW proscene? Kespa has been doing a good job of it for 10 years, even if it has its anti-fans. We are talking about 10+ progamer teams and their own sponsors, as well as the broadcasters, all under the non-profit entity that is Kespa.
By suing the broadcasters, in this case, MBC, Blizzard is doing a lot of damage to their own PR image in Korea. It would not be surprising if there was a huge public backlash because of that. Do we really want the lawsuit to succeed, if that means the collapse of BW? That is why we are so agitated about this whole thing.
EDIT: The sponsors will stop sponsoring the teams if broadcasting is cut, because of the lack of advertising revenue. This is in itself a very ugly scenario.
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On October 28 2010 23:10 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2010 23:02 nimoraca wrote:On October 28 2010 22:47 BLinD-RawR wrote:On October 28 2010 22:36 ffreakk wrote:I would have flamed that m*ron ricerocket to oblivion had i not just read Milkis' blog post just minutes ago :> Now i ll just refrain myself from feeding the troll though.. I will be rooting for MBC (or Kespa since i think they ll be supporting MBC by the side anw) to win out this one because i believe it ll be better for e-Sport overall .. Blizz havnt had a shred of success in promoting e-Sport in the last decades, Kespie<3 on the other hand... ^^ Plus i get to watch Bisu play more now that hes back in form if Kespie wins.. Oh lastly for the Blizz boys.. If you honestly thinks that Blizz will still support SC:BW leagues the way they (the leagues) are now.. You should check for brain damage, really T_T actually it would be GOM who runs the leagues...they only need permission from Blizz who would gladly give it to them. I really doubt that GOM would not run a BW league as long as there are people who want to watch them(THEY BETTER GET SOME GOOD KOREAN CASTERS) since they are seen as evil puppets of doom. to everyone please keep in mind that its not blizzard who would run leagues. Edit: I'm not a blizzard fanboy I'm just anti-anti-Blizzard and ant-anti-KeSPA. No one cares who will run the leagues. The question is who will pay the salaries of progamers. I'm sure Gretech and Blizz won't. KeSPA surly won't if it's not allowed to organize the leagues. No progamers, no SCBW. It's that simple. Maybe a new system could be run,maybe KeSPA will end up supporting Gretech. I'm wishing for too much but I want people to understand that its not impossible.
Im glad you realise you are wishing for too much.. T_T
The reason this is happening in the first place is that Kespa cant agree with Blizz's condition of total control.. What could have made you think that they would suddenly support Blizz after Blizz gain that total control (of course, in the unlikely case that they win).. I personally dont see that happening.. Nor do i see GOM being able to (from a financial as well as experience standpoint) hold anything that can come close to ProLeague alone, let alone OSL n MSL..
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Funny to see that after 10 years of not giving a shit about BW in Korea, Blizzard suddenly wants to claim IP rights.
I just hope the Judge judging it take that into consideration.
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So Blizzard is evil, never sincerely wished to negotiate, always with a desire to kill of the BW scene to make room for the cash cow game that is SC2.
What else is new?
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I highly doubt Blizzard would be willing to support the proBW eSports model.
I mean look at their current SC2 business model. It's free for all prize hunting at best. The dark ages of eSports.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On October 28 2010 23:48 ShadeR wrote: I highly doubt Blizzard would be willing to support the proBW eSports model.
I mean look at their current SC2 business model. It's free for all prize hunting at best. The dark ages of eSports.
It will change...eventually.
I'm an optimist.
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The ultimate solution would be SC2 being forced to be considered in the public interest as an eSport and therefore allowed to be broadcasted and have leagues, so we could just bypass Blizzards total bullshit in the first place.
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Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner.
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On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner.
Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims?
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If my job is a computer programmer, I am FORCED to learn a new programing language roughly once every two years at the minimum. Why the hell do they make those new languages that's easier to build programs with anyway, right? BW and SC2 (and almost all games) were written in the same language, C++, which has been around since 1983.
I hope SC2 does well. But if BW can't survive the "support" of blizzard, then SC2 will ultimately be bound to the same fate.
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Well the first thing that dies in such situation is the truth. So You cant believe either party as you see. Oh well either Kespa pulls back or the lawsuit will clear out all things. I'm kinda really fed up with this drama and am awaiting the ruling now =) I personally believe we wont see much Sc1 after this PL but this just my personal guess.
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On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims?
Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of.
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KeSPA is pulling in $350,000/year from just OGN/MBC, and are pulling in big-name sponsors.
Just look at ESL, ESWC, WCG, MLG, etc.. THEY are the companies operating at a loss (as so many have already fallen) and, with that kind of money, could probably work miracles. This pity party for KeSPA is sickening.
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koerans had lot of games to replace originals like cs - sf or i dont know maybe wow - other mmorpg why they dont have a official rts for them?
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On October 29 2010 02:34 leakingpear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims? Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of.
Why do you feel the need to insult someone like this?
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On October 29 2010 03:33 Ryo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 02:34 leakingpear wrote:On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims? Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of. Why do you feel the need to insult someone like this?
I didn't insult anyone, I pointed out that you were being inordinately smug despite being wrong with the "Sigh." and the overall condescending wording. I don't think you can somehow win the moral high ground by acting like a psychiatrist bro, unless you were implying I was being insensitive to pygmies, then I humbly apologise to all the pygmy tribes all over the world.
You're welcome to refute all my counter-points whenever you like but until then stop with the personal crap.
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On October 29 2010 03:23 Vedic wrote: KeSPA is pulling in $350,000/year from just OGN/MBC, and are pulling in big-name sponsors.
Just look at ESL, ESWC, WCG, MLG, etc.. THEY are the companies operating at a loss (as so many have already fallen) and, with that kind of money, could probably work miracles. This pity party for KeSPA is sickening.
Dude you should totally look for TV channel in France for broadcasting computer games. They will pay you good money for sure... Oh wait it only works in Korea...
I have even better idea: ESL, ESWC, WCG, MLG should allways take place in Korea.
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On October 29 2010 04:32 Borknagarush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 03:23 Vedic wrote: KeSPA is pulling in $350,000/year from just OGN/MBC, and are pulling in big-name sponsors.
Just look at ESL, ESWC, WCG, MLG, etc.. THEY are the companies operating at a loss (as so many have already fallen) and, with that kind of money, could probably work miracles. This pity party for KeSPA is sickening. Dude you should totally look for TV channel in France for broadcasting computer games. They will pay you good money for sure... Oh wait it only works in Korea... I have even better idea: ESL, ESWC, WCG, MLG should allways take place in Korea.
I think he only meant that it is a very big budget compared to what MLG/ESL etc. have.
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On October 29 2010 04:49 pecore wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 04:32 Borknagarush wrote:On October 29 2010 03:23 Vedic wrote: KeSPA is pulling in $350,000/year from just OGN/MBC, and are pulling in big-name sponsors.
Just look at ESL, ESWC, WCG, MLG, etc.. THEY are the companies operating at a loss (as so many have already fallen) and, with that kind of money, could probably work miracles. This pity party for KeSPA is sickening. Dude you should totally look for TV channel in France for broadcasting computer games. They will pay you good money for sure... Oh wait it only works in Korea... I have even better idea: ESL, ESWC, WCG, MLG should allways take place in Korea. I think he only meant that it is a very big budget compared to what MLG/ESL etc. have.
Blizzard have huge budget, but why dont they throw millions at NA or Europe like they do in Korea? Blizzcon dosn't count coz its annual event with not so much cash prize.
UEFA also could organise tournaments and leagues better than KeSPA.
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On October 29 2010 04:29 leakingpear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 03:33 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 02:34 leakingpear wrote:On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims? Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of. Why do you feel the need to insult someone like this? I didn't insult anyone, I pointed out that you were being inordinately smug despite being wrong with the "Sigh." and the overall condescending wording. I don't think you can somehow win the moral high ground by acting like a psychiatrist bro, unless you were implying I was being insensitive to pygmies, then I humbly apologise to all the pygmy tribes all over the world. You're welcome to refute all my counter-points whenever you like but until then stop with the personal crap.
What moral high ground or psychiatrist or insensitive to pygmies or personal crap? I don't understand why you are saying these things but from where I come from, it is not nice. That is all.
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Stop feeding the sc2 teenage trolls. I bet 95% of them are D- iccup or have never touched bw. They don't understand that bw's dead would be a huge step back for esport, simply cause it's the only game that is currently good enough to provide both competitive play and awesome show.
And no, sc2 is not. It's so hugely fucking easier that it hurts. I play for two weeks, i don't even know all the units in the race i play with, and i'm already mid diamond with like 65% win ratio ; despite not knowing the game at all when i started.
When i see newbs arguing in the sc2 forum that there's still very high skill ceiling, they fail to realize that quickly the skill gap becomes very small between top players, which leads to randomness of the outcome, which is terrible for esport.
So long live to Broodwar, cause that's the only rts game which is good enough to carry esport, at least for now. Blizzard realizes this much better than its new fans.
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On October 29 2010 02:34 leakingpear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims? Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of.
Well first, i think you dont know how works the political system , I am very close to the vicepresident of my country and I am going to tell you: even though Kespa is not an arm of the government, all the actions that has been made and all the statements in the past and now from the McO can be seen as a big support to Kespa, I can assure you this 100%, if Korea has a corrupted political system or not is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. A system without licenses is less arbitrary and inaccessible? how does the licenses forbid the best players to turn out in professional gamers? (please explain me), I am not saying the model is perfect but I dont think it results in an arbitrary and inaccessible system.
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On October 29 2010 06:41 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 02:34 leakingpear wrote:On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims? Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of. Well first, i think you dont know how works the political system , I am very close to the vicepresident of my country and I am going to tell you: even though Kespa is not an arm of the government, all the actions that has been made and all the statements in the past and now from the McO can be seen as a big support to Kespa, I can assure you this 100%, if Korea has a corrupted political system or not is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. A system without licenses is less arbitrary and inaccessible? how does the licenses forbid the best players to turn out in professional gamers? (please explain me), I am not saying the model is perfect but I dont think it results in an arbitrary and inaccessible system.
The licensing system revolved around either being pre-selected by teams and being given a special pass, which was arbitrary and down to being able to show off to certain people, the other route was through courage, a tournament that only happened once a month and only lets in either 1 or 2 people each month (which is largely considered a lottery of being cheesed in 128 person tournaments, for reference see Ret and Nony's courage videos). Plus even if you win courage you're not guaranteed to be picked up by a team at all, you just have to hope so at the draft. Without a license a player can't even join a team or take place in individual events, regardless of skill level. So yeah, it is arbitrary and inaccessible, it's not totally inaccessible otherwise no one be playing at all, but it's not a simple and easy process for the best players to come through.
As for the anecdotal evidence about the vice president of the ministry of culture in Colombia, that's just too ridiculous to be taken seriously at all. Even if it were true, which I find doubtful at best, the fact that you're using such vague and inspecific language, not to mention that there really haven't been any MoC statements that have been in direct support of KeSPA in recent memory, leads me to believe you're trying to make something up that no one can actually check to see if it's correct or not. As for the relevance of corruption and lobbying, it's relevant in that it's more likely to decide any government interference than anything that happens in public due to the lack of impetus for the government to be involved on its own volition. I do actually check these things before I post them, I know it's weird to do that on here since you're meant to just make shit up and hope it sticks so I apologise for being thorough.
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@leakingpear
Is it just me or are you being sore about Ret or Nony not making the draft, believing that their skills would be sufficient? If not, then what alternatives do you have outside of the current drafting/licensing system? Allowing free entries to tournaments? Anyone can join proteams?
1/ If you are hoping to get people like Ret or Nony playing on televised games, its impossible since if the gameplay level of these leagues are so low, they wont attract viewers.. 2/ If you arent hoping to see them on TV, then whats there to make a fuss about? Failing Courage can also be seen as failing to qualify for individual leagues (just treat it as another qualifier and there you have it).. Whether they get cheesed out or skillstomped out, fact is that they failed to qualify.. 3/ Without a license a player can't even join a team or take place in individual events, regardless of skill level. Players without a license are those that fail at both qualifying the Courage and impressing the teams. Which means that chances are their skill level is insufficient. Now you can say "i failed to qualify everytime and my performance was never impressive but my actual skill is Bonjwa", but you realise how ridiculous this sounds.
As to those who passed couraged but dont get drafted.. I dont see anything wrong with it.. If teams dont see potential in players, they dont wish to pay for them.. It is normal, whether it be in SC:BW or anywhere else.. Analogy: just because PlayerA is the top-scorer for some lowbie leagues doesnt mean that he is entitled to be drafted by Man.Utd.. If the team thinks that hes just not good enough, they dont draft him.. Same story here.. Passing Courage means that you have a chance, it isnt an entitlement.. After all the way i see it Courage is a place to showcase your skills and impress the proteams..
Teams are given a few licenses every year to contract promising players that they find despite them not passing Courage, so even if ur favourite players get cheesed out of the "lottery" if he/she is impressive, they will get contracted.. Fact is that they were not.
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I was literally referencing their courage videos because they have good first hand accounts and opinions from people who were actually there and taking part. Also why on earth are you even replying, I just said that it was arbitrary and inaccessible, which it is, there's layers of obfuscation from being able to qualify for a starleague without prior approval, this is a fact, a real fact that's all factual and facty. Why on earth would you assume anyone would be sore over Ret or Nony when both of them turned out to leave Korea anyway, not to mention Ret's disapproval of the KeSPA teams' approach causing him to leave, while planning to return now that it's a situation with more personal control (not that I am implying this has anything to do with progaming licenses and is more to do with the culture of the teams that take part in Proleague).
I really don't care about your petty arguments that try to gloss over everything one side does wrong while amplifying everything the other side does wrong, it's retarded and I really, truly, honestly with one hand on my heart and the other on an anthology of religious holy texts and atheist/agnostic equivalents, care at all. I get it, you like KeSPA, you're unwilling to approach this in a reasonable and logical manner because you want the current BW system to continue, I can understand it. Just stop assuming that everyone who says anything remotely bad about the current system is as indebted to a cause as you, because the vast majority of people you're so vehemently disagreeing with haven't been doing that.
I post in these threads trying to clear up issues that cause contention with evidenced reasoning and it just seems to give me more headaches.
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You are overreacting.. While you disapprove of Courage and the current licensing system, claiming that it is arbitrary and inaccessible for the best players.. I merely stated my opinion otherwise, with reasons.. I also have to say that bit about "inaccessible for the best players" is false, since all the best players are already there competing at pro level.. Its regrettable that foreigners dont have access to it unless they are in Korea, but with stronger foundations and better investments even that barrier will hopefully be overcome in the future. Overall i feel that the current Courage and Licensing system is fair.
And i didnt even mention Blizzard in my post, where did you get thetry to gloss over everything one side does wrong while amplifying everything the other side does wrong from, please enlighten me. If it is a misunderstanding i ll be more than happy to clear it up.
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Can you please not use quote marks and italics when not actually quoting something i've said. Ofcourse the very best players will get through in all likelihood, but that doesn't stop it being arbitrary and inaccessible. I was literally stating a fact and once again someone has taken it upon themselves to derive an opinion from it. I don't really know why people who have no experience in making sports popular feel that they are capable of knowing exactly what the best way to do things is, I certainly don't.
As for the latter part of your post if you really think stuff like this is ok, especially when referring to a guy who was being a lot more civil than 90% of the KeSPA can only do BW zealots, I don't really know what goes on in your head. It's probably worth noting that was a general statement about the replies I seem to get whenever I post and not necessarily aimed at you.
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That guy was trolling the shit out of this thread and that was why he was temp banned.
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This is probably the biggest piece of BS i have ever read.
Despite professional opinion saying that giving shared ownership to the original IP holder is too much considering the technical skills by the broadcasting stations and the efforts of the players required to creating the program, the approval fee and the usage fee to broadcast the games, KeSPA has agreed to have limited share ownership for promotional use, and is doing its best to reach the end of the negotiations. is the ONLY reason blizzard is suing them. Blizzard and gretech could care less about the cost or profitability of the league. If blizzard losses the ability to hold IP in korea, then they would lose everything that they are going to gain from sc2 esports. Blizzard wants them to have a PL, MSL, etc. What they don't want is some company or even some country thinking that breaking international IP law is an ok thing to do.
Kespa lovers, please note that if this happened in the United states you would 100% stand behind blizzard. If you disagree with the current IP law that is a different story that should be discussed on some lawyer forums somewhere else.
Kespa is worse than any union i've ever known. Preventing players from participating in officially liscened tournaments is a 100% to anger gretech and blizzard and rightfully so.
Also as for the setup of kespa, blizzard could probably care less. If those players want to get themselves in that situation that is their decision to make. Teams actually are a good idea for competitive gaming. But teams has nothing to do with why blizzard is suing. Blizzard is suing because someone is not respecting their IP rights, that is all.
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For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM. If you're discussing the NaDa thing, he was under a contract with WeMade, a SC1 team. Why would they let him promote SC2 by participating in a show match? Go read up on the term "contract" please.
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On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee
Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL.
In other words: you're wrong
On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: If you're discussing the NaDa thing, he was under a contract with WeMade, a SC1 team.
WeMade is part of KeSPA in case you didn't know. And they aren't Sc1 team - they also got CounterStrike and War3.
On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: Why would they let him promote SC2 by participating in a show match?
Because Carmac got permission to from WeMade?
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On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote: What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee
Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL.
In other words: you're wrong
If you're under contract then why would you expect to be allowed to do this? Remember it was individual teams who at first were pulling players out of the GOM league in the first place before it was decided it was a pointless endeavor for all (which it was). These players are paid salaries and have contracts, do you understand any of this and how it works in the real world. Lets say as KeSPA approved team leader, say SKT1, why would i want any of my players wasting practice time on an unrelated league? Then worse still, in the future this league turns out to be run by the same people who are trying their best to get Brood War replaced by their new game. Why the fuck would you allow that? It's not as if they don't let the players go and play in any events at all, why do you think they are still at WCG every year?
Unless Gretech is contributing in some way, such as owning a pro team like STX (thereby having the STX masters), or doing anything in regards to help your cause then why would you want your players in their tournaments. I have a feeling you will just say something about a player should be able to do what he wants but thats not how a contract works in anything. If i'm employed somewhere i wouldn't expect to be freely allowed to do freelance work for a direct competitor unless my employer allowed that. Not sure why anyone thinks progamers should be any different, if this is to be treated as a true professional sport.
Maybe there's room in the scene for actual freelance gamers who can compete in the licensed leagues too, but theres no system set up for this right now and no need because anyone who has the required skill is under contract already, except say.. EffOrt, so he could play in all leagues and be under no contract, but would that even benefit him more than a CJ contract?
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On October 29 2010 22:55 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote: What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee
Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL.
In other words: you're wrong
If you're under contract then why would you expect to be allowed to do this? Remember it was individual teams who at first were pulling players out of the GOM league in the first place before it was decided it was a pointless endeavor for all (which it was). These players are paid salaries and have contracts, do you understand any of this and how it works in the real world. Lets say as KeSPA approved team leader, say SKT1, why would i want any of my players wasting practice time on an unrelated league? Then worse still, in the future this league turns out to be run by the same people who are trying their best to get Brood War replaced by their new game. Why the fuck would you allow that? It's not as if they don't let the players go and play in any events at all, why do you think they are still at WCG every year?
I wasn't going into detail if it's bad or good that KeSPA pulled their players from GOM, so all that you have written is a waste of time.
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Fair enough, good or bad but they did it yes, after half the teams had already decided to pull out it should be noted.
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On October 29 2010 07:30 leakingpear wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 06:41 palexhur wrote:On October 29 2010 02:34 leakingpear wrote:On October 29 2010 01:13 Ryo wrote:On October 29 2010 01:07 leakingpear wrote: Why do people assume KeSPA is a government entity, it's not, it's privately run by a series of conglomerates, the progaming license system is literally just to play in KeSPA events and the only reason they'd be favourably viewed by the ministry of culture is because they're Korean. Infact most governing bodies of sports aren't public entities at all, the FA in the UK, the FIA for F1, they're all non-democratic entities whose power comes from the infrastructure and history they've established, as recently as 2008/2009, the FIA was on the verge of breaking up due to the Max Mosely and Briattore scandals and that's been around for 40+ years.
Also if it was considered to be 'in the public interest' then that would discount a huge amount of international copyright and IP law completely unrelated to the games industry and could result in WTO sanctions because of its specificity to one game or series of games in particular, none of which the Korean government is likely to risk over a completely civil case that doesn't really concern them in any manner. Sigh. Did you even look into the full history of Kespa and the statements/recent conferences the Ministry of Culture held regarding e-sports in Korea before making such claims? Approved by the Ministry of Culture does not equate to being a government entity, they're approved because they make safe events that contribute to the culture of the country, the FA, FIFA, FIA, UEFA are all approved by their various countries in which they reside. KeSPA has cultural value but it's not an arm of the korean government. It's also worth noting that in the MoC report to which you so helpfully reference with the smugness of a gnome among pygmies, doesn't really refer to KeSPA at all and is about creating greater participation in general, notably in amateur leagues. This approach would typically be an indicator of them wanting a more open system without licenses so it's less arbitrary and inaccessible. As for the MoC's involvement in the negotiations, there's been one very contentious blog post full of conjecture, where it sounded more like Blizzard crying to KeSPA's uncle and then being told to sort it out yourself. And all this is totally ignoring the giant elephant in the room of rampant corruption in the Korean political system, especially in the area of games where new regulations have made it so even freeware games are required to pay fees and be approved, a system that doesn't operate in any other economy in the world that i'm aware of. Well first, i think you dont know how works the political system , I am very close to the vicepresident of my country and I am going to tell you: even though Kespa is not an arm of the government, all the actions that has been made and all the statements in the past and now from the McO can be seen as a big support to Kespa, I can assure you this 100%, if Korea has a corrupted political system or not is absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. A system without licenses is less arbitrary and inaccessible? how does the licenses forbid the best players to turn out in professional gamers? (please explain me), I am not saying the model is perfect but I dont think it results in an arbitrary and inaccessible system. The licensing system revolved around either being pre-selected by teams and being given a special pass, which was arbitrary and down to being able to show off to certain people, the other route was through courage, a tournament that only happened once a month and only lets in either 1 or 2 people each month (which is largely considered a lottery of being cheesed in 128 person tournaments, for reference see Ret and Nony's courage videos). Plus even if you win courage you're not guaranteed to be picked up by a team at all, you just have to hope so at the draft. Without a license a player can't even join a team or take place in individual events, regardless of skill level. So yeah, it is arbitrary and inaccessible, it's not totally inaccessible otherwise no one be playing at all, but it's not a simple and easy process for the best players to come through. As for the anecdotal evidence about the vice president of the ministry of culture in Colombia, that's just too ridiculous to be taken seriously at all. Even if it were true, which I find doubtful at best, the fact that you're using such vague and inspecific language, not to mention that there really haven't been any MoC statements that have been in direct support of KeSPA in recent memory, leads me to believe you're trying to make something up that no one can actually check to see if it's correct or not. As for the relevance of corruption and lobbying, it's relevant in that it's more likely to decide any government interference than anything that happens in public due to the lack of impetus for the government to be involved on its own volition. I do actually check these things before I post them, I know it's weird to do that on here since you're meant to just make shit up and hope it sticks so I apologise for being thorough.
Believe what you want guy, your argumentation is very poor even though you got very long posts trying to be smart, and I am done with you, and not I am not close to the vicepresident of the MoC in my country but the Vicepresident of the country himself, so no worries for sure I know how politics work from first hand and not because I read something in some magazine, bye.
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On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong
God, you're so full of shit. they didn't pull all players from gomtv starleague. Three teams in the first season is far from "all". Stop making shit up to support your "arguments". Also where did you come up with the idea that they didn't participate because gretech didn't pay them a fee? Afaik gretech never paid any fees to KeSPA and until season 3 or so only few teams decided not to participate.
You are wrong, again.
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On October 30 2010 00:23 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong God, you're so full of shit. they didn't pull all players from gomtv starleague. Three teams in the first season is far from "all". Stop making shit up to support your "arguments". Also where did you come up with the idea that they didn't participate because gretech didn't pay them a fee? Afaik gretech never paid any fees to KeSPA and until season 3 or so only few teams decided not to participate. You are wrong, again.
Not going deep into arguments because these wars every week doesn't change anyones stance, but i'll quote what gretech employee (junkka) said on these forums
Gretech is GOMTV. GOM stands for Gretech Online Media. We tried to contribute by making a tournament called GOMTV Classic(and it was first tournament anyone in Korea tried to broadcast to the rest of the world) but KESPA comes inand says we do not have the right to make tournaments when they don;t even pay copyright to Blizzard. They threaten all pro players that they will lose their license if they play in GOM Classic and manages to shut down GOM classic.
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Estonia4504 Posts
The post from junkka doesn't sound biased at all, especially surprising since it comes from a GOM TV employee :O
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On October 30 2010 00:41 mustaju wrote: The post from junkka doesn't sound biased at all, especially surprising since it comes from a GOM TV employee :O Enough with conspiracy theorys because there are enough of them in this forum.
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On October 30 2010 00:48 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 00:41 mustaju wrote: The post from junkka doesn't sound biased at all, especially surprising since it comes from a GOM TV employee :O Enough with conspiracy theorys because there are enough of them in this forum. I don't think it's a conspiracy theory to state that a comment by an employee of an organization might be biased towards that organization; it's common sense. Same applies to statements released by kespa though.
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On October 29 2010 15:56 darmousseh wrote:This is probably the biggest piece of BS i have ever read. Show nested quote + Despite professional opinion saying that giving shared ownership to the original IP holder is too much considering the technical skills by the broadcasting stations and the efforts of the players required to creating the program, the approval fee and the usage fee to broadcast the games, KeSPA has agreed to have limited share ownership for promotional use, and is doing its best to reach the end of the negotiations. is the ONLY reason blizzard is suing them. Blizzard and gretech could care less about the cost or profitability of the league. If blizzard losses the ability to hold IP in korea, then they would lose everything that they are going to gain from sc2 esports. Blizzard wants them to have a PL, MSL, etc. What they don't want is some company or even some country thinking that breaking international IP law is an ok thing to do. Kespa lovers, please note that if this happened in the United states you would 100% stand behind blizzard. If you disagree with the current IP law that is a different story that should be discussed on some lawyer forums somewhere else. Kespa is worse than any union i've ever known. Preventing players from participating in officially liscened tournaments is a 100% to anger gretech and blizzard and rightfully so. Also as for the setup of kespa, blizzard could probably care less. If those players want to get themselves in that situation that is their decision to make. Teams actually are a good idea for competitive gaming. But teams has nothing to do with why blizzard is suing. Blizzard is suing because someone is not respecting their IP rights, that is all.
So many of you do not get the most basic concepts. KeSPA actually is not preventing players from participating in any tournament. Obvious examples are Nada, Boxer and July. How can they prevetn anything. Korea is a free country. Companies behind KeSPA however are paying the salaries of those players, and they can certainly fire those players who want to play other leagues (the ones not organized by KeSPA). This is exactly what any other professional sporting organization would do. I hope now everyone understands the whole "KeSPA preventing other toutnamnets" issue.
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Exactly.. You cant really hope Rooney (i hope u know who he is) to play for Chelsea and still get paid big bucks by Man.Utd.. Players should be allowed to play (for) whichever (club) they want? I dont think so.. Now if he really want to play for the other side, he gets fired.. After he is fired, he is free to play whatever he wants.. Same story w Kespa (hell they did let the players participate at 1st, but pulled out due to the fact that GOM tourney simply wasnt worth it).
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Are these numbers in DOLLARS or YEN.
1.7 billion, yen to usd = like 22 million. 1.7 billion usd to usd = 1.7 billion.
Just out of curiosity
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On October 30 2010 02:08 Rickilicious wrote: Are these numbers in DOLLARS or YEN.
1.7 billion, yen to usd = like 22 million. 1.7 billion usd to usd = 1.7 billion.
Just out of curiosity
korea isn't japan man.
its won not yen
go google exchange it
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On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong GOM was never a KeSPA league, and matches there didn't count for KeSPA rank. In addition, it had a much lower viewership and the live audience for matches was close to nonexistent (as is the case with the GSL in the GOM studios). While the league wasn't approved by KeSPA (hence no rank), it was teams and players themselves that said that it wasn't a priority for them, and yes, some teams decided to pull out. The only teams that never participated were MBCGAME HERO, OnGameNet Sparkyz and eSTRO, for obvious reasons.
Teams participating in the GOMTV Classic (or willing to participate in the case of S4): Season 1 (7 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN. Season 2 (9 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, SKT, ACE. Season 3 (8 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, ACE. Season 4 (5 Teams): CJ, Stars, Oz, Wemade, KHAN.
With S4, GOM decided not go through with it with only 5 teams (only 2 less than S1).
If it was a direct order by KeSPA, none of the players of any of the teams would have played. Clearly that wasn't the case. The teams didn't show as much interest in the GOMTV Classic because its ratings were low and the koreans didn't really care for it.
Even if the reason was that KeSPA pressured the teams to not participate, there still wouldn't be much wrong with that since the players are under contract by KeSPA. In the end, it was GOM that wanted to run a league using KeSPA players, instead of an open tournament.
As for the GSL situation, these players are getting paid by their teams to play BW and practice for SPL/OSL/MSL matches. Having them neglect their training to play SC2 on the side so they can participate in the GSL takes away from their BW focus and time, so why should the teams allow it? If they want to do so then great, but they can't expect their teams to continue to pay/house/feed them if they don't do what they were contracted to do.
+ Show Spoiler +In other words: you're wrong
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Estonia4504 Posts
The argument that professional BW players should be allowed to play SC2 on the side feels similar to a statement that Rooney should be allowed to ditch practice in order to play a bit of Baseball on the side. Why? Because I don't like soccer and I do like baseball.
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On October 30 2010 02:43 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong GOM was never a KeSPA league, and matches there didn't count for KeSPA rank. In addition, it had a much lower viewership and the live audience for matches was close to nonexistent (as is the case with the GSL in the GOM studios). While the league wasn't approved by KeSPA (hence no rank), it was teams and players themselves that said that it wasn't a priority for them, and yes, some teams decided to pull out. The only teams that never participated were MBCGAME HERO, OnGameNet Sparkyz and eSTRO, for obvious reasons. Teams participating in the GOMTV Classic (or willing to participate in the case of S4):Season 1 (7 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN. Season 2 (9 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, SKT, ACE. Season 3 (8 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, ACE. Season 4 (5 Teams): CJ, Stars, Oz, Wemade, KHAN. With S4, GOM decided not go through with it with only 5 teams (only 2 less than S1). If it was a direct order by KeSPA, none of the players of any of the teams would have played. Clearly that wasn't the case. The teams didn't show as much interest in the GOMTV Classic because its ratings were low and the koreans didn't really care for it. Even if the reason was that KeSPA pressured the teams to not participate, there still wouldn't be much wrong with that since the players are under contract by KeSPA. In the end, it was GOM that wanted to run a league using KeSPA players, instead of an open tournament. As for the GSL situation, these players are getting paid by their teams to play BW and practice for SPL/OSL/MSL matches. Having them neglect their training to play SC2 on the side so they can participate in the GSL takes away from their BW focus and time, so why should the teams allow it? If they want to do so then great, but they can't expect their teams to continue to pay/house/feed them if they don't do what they were contracted to do. + Show Spoiler +In other words: you're wrong
So I took time to dig through interwebz for whole story
1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events.
Source: + Show Spoiler +http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/10690-kespa-vs-blizzard-1-0
Again I'm not trying to say who's wrong or who's right I'm just posting facts. I will not try to force you guys think that what Blizzard is doing is acceptable because that's just pointless.
edit: my english writing skills aren't great but I'm trying.
Anyway whole point is that teams wanted to participate in gom. Players wanted to participate in Gom. It was KeSPA who forced some teams to pull off and therefore forcing GomTV to shut their invitational (what's the point when big names are gone?)
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On October 30 2010 04:21 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 02:43 moopie wrote:On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote: For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong GOM was never a KeSPA league, and matches there didn't count for KeSPA rank. In addition, it had a much lower viewership and the live audience for matches was close to nonexistent (as is the case with the GSL in the GOM studios). While the league wasn't approved by KeSPA (hence no rank), it was teams and players themselves that said that it wasn't a priority for them, and yes, some teams decided to pull out. The only teams that never participated were MBCGAME HERO, OnGameNet Sparkyz and eSTRO, for obvious reasons. Teams participating in the GOMTV Classic (or willing to participate in the case of S4):Season 1 (7 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN. Season 2 (9 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, SKT, ACE. Season 3 (8 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, ACE. Season 4 (5 Teams): CJ, Stars, Oz, Wemade, KHAN. With S4, GOM decided not go through with it with only 5 teams (only 2 less than S1). If it was a direct order by KeSPA, none of the players of any of the teams would have played. Clearly that wasn't the case. The teams didn't show as much interest in the GOMTV Classic because its ratings were low and the koreans didn't really care for it. Even if the reason was that KeSPA pressured the teams to not participate, there still wouldn't be much wrong with that since the players are under contract by KeSPA. In the end, it was GOM that wanted to run a league using KeSPA players, instead of an open tournament. As for the GSL situation, these players are getting paid by their teams to play BW and practice for SPL/OSL/MSL matches. Having them neglect their training to play SC2 on the side so they can participate in the GSL takes away from their BW focus and time, so why should the teams allow it? If they want to do so then great, but they can't expect their teams to continue to pay/house/feed them if they don't do what they were contracted to do. + Show Spoiler +In other words: you're wrong So I took time to dig through interwebz for whole story Show nested quote +1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events. Source: + Show Spoiler +http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/10690-kespa-vs-blizzard-1-0 Again I'm not trying to say who's wrong or who's right I'm just posting facts. I will not try to force you guys think that what Blizzard is doing is acceptable because that's just pointless. You do realize that gosugamers sources TL right?
Anyway, like I mentioned in my previous post, the so called "boycott" was 4 teams that participated in some of the seasons, plus 3 teams that didn't participate at all for obvious reasons, not because of anything having to do with Blizzard (OGN/MBC/IEG). Also (repeating my post above), had KeSPA wanted to shun GOM Classic altogether, 0 teams would have participated. Instead, you had 5 that were in all the seasons, and 4 more that were in some of the seasons. Given that 3 of the team sponsors had conflicting interests and weren't interested in joining at all, that left 9 potential teams to play for GOM. The season participation numbers are actually pretty high given 9 potential teams (7, 9, 8, 5). It was GOM that decided that it wasn't worth it to them to run S4 with only 5 teams. My issue was that your statement "In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee" was blatantly false.
On October 30 2010 04:21 AyJay wrote: Anyway whole point is that teams wanted to participate in gom. Players wanted to participate in Gom. It was KeSPA who forced some teams to pull off and therefore forcing GomTV to shut their invitational (what's the point when big names are gone?) Again, no it was the teams that pulled out. You are assuming that it was a word coming down from KeSPA, but your assumption doesn't explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams. You have to face the fact that as popular as GOMTV Classic may have been with the foreigner crowd, the koreans didn't care for it at all (and that matters to the sponsors), viewership in Korea was low, the commentators were bad and the teams saw it as yet one more things their players have to spend time on in addition to their schedule.
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It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could. Does anyone really know what happened? Only those directly related would, so speculation based off of statements from either side shouldn't be taken as fact. That goes for both saying KeSPA pulled teams out, and saying they didn't. In other words, keep in mind that both situations could very well be real possibilities.
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On October 30 2010 05:12 xBillehx wrote: It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could. In that case, again it wouldn't be an order/ruling, it would be discouraging. I've already touched down on this in my post above, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for KeSPA to discourage teams from participating. The GOM Classic was a non-KeSPA ranked league, like the STX Masters, but unlike that it was one that took place during the active PL/OSL/MSL seasons. Time dedicated to practicing for it is time taken away from practicing for KeSPA leagues (this of course is also reasons for the individual Sponors/teams to want to pull out, assuming no KeSPA intervention to begin with).
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On October 30 2010 05:33 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:12 xBillehx wrote: It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could. In that case, again it wouldn't be an order/ruling, it would be discouraging. I've already touched down on this in my post above, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for KeSPA to discourage teams from participating. The GOM Classic was a non-KeSPA ranked league, like the STX Masters or WCG, but unlike those it was one that took place during the active PL/OSL/MSL seasons. Time dedicated to practicing for it is time taken away from practicing for KeSPA leagues (this of course is also reasons for the individual Sponors/teams to want to pull out, assuming no KeSPA intervention to begin with). Consider the possibility that it was an order.
Would KeSPA have banned the other teams from their leagues for continuing? Probably not, that'd be suicide, but some teams didn't risk it. Were the teams who did pull out enough to shut down the GOMTV Classic 4? Yeah. Did the league continue with the teams that were staying, forcing KeSPA to act on the order? No. Do we know what would have happened if S4 continued? Not really. With that kind of information are we able to make a statement on whether or not it was an order? No.
Again, without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^;
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 30 2010 05:57 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:33 moopie wrote:On October 30 2010 05:12 xBillehx wrote: It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could. In that case, again it wouldn't be an order/ruling, it would be discouraging. I've already touched down on this in my post above, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for KeSPA to discourage teams from participating. The GOM Classic was a non-KeSPA ranked league, like the STX Masters or WCG, but unlike those it was one that took place during the active PL/OSL/MSL seasons. Time dedicated to practicing for it is time taken away from practicing for KeSPA leagues (this of course is also reasons for the individual Sponors/teams to want to pull out, assuming no KeSPA intervention to begin with). Consider the possibility that it was an order. Would KeSPA have banned the other teams from their leagues for continuing? Probably not, that'd be suicide, but some teams didn't risk it. Were the teams who did pull out enough to shut down the GOMTV Classic 4? Yeah. Did the league continue with the teams that were staying, forcing KeSPA to act on the order? No. Do we know what would have happened if S4 continued? Not really. With that kind of information are we able to make a statement on whether or not it was an order? No.Again, without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^; Why do we assume it was an order in the first place, especially since discouragement appears to be a much more logical solution? You know, Occam's razor and all. This doesn't sound rational from that standpoint.
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On October 30 2010 05:57 xBillehx wrote: Consider the possibility that it was an order. ok
Would KeSPA have banned the other teams from their leagues for continuing? No, not banned, but it could have penalized them.
Were the teams who did pull out enough to shut down the GOMTV Classic 4? Only because GOM chose not to go ahead with 5 teams (that much was unknown to KeSPA before GOM's decision, so you can't really say 'Yeah').
without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^; Yes, its possible, but its also a reach. There is no real evidence hinting that this was the case, whereas it is more likely that KeSPA issued no such order since the league went on for as long as it did and there were still 5 out of 9 teams that wanted to participate. Possible doesn't mean likely, and regardless, whether or not KeSPA gave the order or if it was just the teams/sponsors individually deciding makes no difference on my original post to AyJay. For the 3rd time, I replied because he stated "In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom", when it was fact that not all the players were pulled. Why said teams pulled out is irrelevant imo, because whether it was on a team level, sponsor level, or KeSPA itself, it is all perfectly logical from all perspectives.
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On October 30 2010 06:14 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:57 xBillehx wrote: Consider the possibility that it was an order. ok No, not banned, but it could have penalized them. Only because GOM chose not to go ahead with 5 teams (that much was unknown to KeSPA before GOM's decision, so you can't really say 'Yeah'). Show nested quote +without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^; Yes, its possible, but its also a reach. There is no real evidence hinting that this was the case, whereas it is more likely that KeSPA issued no such order since the league went on for as long as it did and there were still 5 out of 9 teams that wanted to participate. Possible doesn't mean likely, and regardless, whether or not KeSPA gave the order or if it was just the teams/sponsors individually deciding makes no difference on my original post to AyJay. For the 3rd time, I replied because he stated "In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom", when it was fact that not all the players were pulled. Why said teams pulled out is irrelevant imo, because whether it was on a team level, sponsor level, or KeSPA itself, it is all perfectly logical from all perspectives. I'm not defending AyJay at all. I commented after reading "You are assuming that it was a word coming down from KeSPA, but your assumption doesn't explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams." because I wanted to open you to an explanation of why it could be so. In that post I clearly said we (all of us) should keep an open mind, and you continued to argue against it for your conclusion, so I further explained reasons to keep an open mind. Again I'm not arguing for either side, just saying that no one should deem assumptions of why it happened as a fact unless directly involved. lol.
Edit: Though I do agree his statement was incorrect because not all teams did pull out.
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The GOM seasons only purpose was to lay a foundation for SC2. I think they wanted to be a strong contester to the other Starleagues. But even if GOM is the only SC2 league, it is very much safe to say that without Ongamnet and MBC Blizzard looses the two most established major e-sport TV stations in the world. And whoever was in charge of fucking that up, should immediately be fired. The amount of exposure SC2 would have got would be much much higher.
So instead of doing all this bullshit Blizzard should go like this: "You've done some astonishing work for Brood War and we believe you have the necessary expertise in helping us with our new game. We give you two options. A you pay full licensing fees and you go on your way or B you pay this little symbolic fee but you have to run / build up a Starcraft 2 tournament". And guess what Blizzard. They would have done all their work for you! If the stations would have gotten good results they would make it big by themselves. Simply having SC2 on TELEVISION, as little and unimportant the first leagues would have been at first, would still be like having a free card to a super bowl commercial.
And the simple fact that their own greed in making a deal with gretech in order for them to remain in total control is a statement to how blatantly uninformed they are when it comes to the history of Korean Brood War with its more than 100 leagues / tournaments that took place. All of them needed sponsorship and all of them helped building up to what was one of the strongest e-sport scene in the history of ever.
So hats of to you, for a fail of epic proportions.
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This forum has become so angry and bitter that it's hard for me to visit because the threads are just never enjoyable...like this one. There's not much open, balanced discussion--instead it's largely one-sided bashing and ad hominem attacks. There's really nothing to do at this point but to wait and hope for the best.
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On October 30 2010 09:57 rift wrote: This forum has become so angry and bitter that it's hard for me to visit because the threads are just never enjoyable...like this one. There's not much open, balanced discussion--instead it's largely one-sided bashing and ad hominem attacks. There's really nothing to do at this point but to wait and hope for the best.
Exactly this. The blind fanboyism from both sides just piss me off. Both sides pull up facts from their arses and pretend like it's legitimate, and that they're the ultimate expert lawyers working for KESPA/Blizzard.
If the case was so clear cut, there wouldn't be this much of a shit storm.
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On October 30 2010 10:41 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:57 rift wrote: This forum has become so angry and bitter that it's hard for me to visit because the threads are just never enjoyable...like this one. There's not much open, balanced discussion--instead it's largely one-sided bashing and ad hominem attacks. There's really nothing to do at this point but to wait and hope for the best. Exactly this. The blind fanboyism from both sides just piss me off. Both sides pull up facts from their arses and pretend like it's legitimate, and that they're the ultimate expert lawyers working for KESPA/Blizzard. If the case was so clear cut, there wouldn't be this much of a shit storm.
I just want the 2 games to coexist with BW and SC2 tournament together.... At this point, I can't really tell if SC2 have the potential to be as entertaining but I am waiting until all expos coming out.
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Also, some people are saying KESPA has every right to pull out their 'employees' for playing a rival tournament like GSL etc. etc. economics etc.
If you look at Blizzard's side, why would you want to deal with competitors using YOUR OWN PRODUCT to compete against your brand new tournament? Who ignore your IP rights to YOUR OWN GAME that you developed?
It doesn't make sense.
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hoping this ends WELL.... Don't take away my brood warz please!
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People are going over the starcraft intel classic S4 pull-out... again? I thought it was already stated as a fact that the KeSPA demanded broadcasting fees of their players, but gomTV said that didn't have the right to demand fees when.. gomTV already held IP rights to hold tournaments while KeSPA did not.
KeSPA pulled out their players. If you think having another league is too stressful, players like jaedong/flash can compete in two league finals at once. If you think the players wanted to boycott themselves for no apparent reason.. (why would they care about viewership?? They're playing starcraft for the prize am I right??).
Also, KeSPA is well-known for limiting players their right to play other games and shit so FYI. Gretech talked about this already, and even Blizzard Mike Morhaime took a stab at it too, so I don't understand why people keep insisting differently.
Anyways, I resisted but I'm weak to trolls.
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Good god, ur train of logic baffles me.
1/ From 2 to 3 means a 50% increment in workload, thats like working 8 hours a day and working 12 hours a day, go figure.
2/ You said "players like jaedong/flash" like they are random average players.. How many players out there that are like them? Just because they play two individual leagues at the same time and play them well doesnt say anything about whether other (lesser) players are capable of the same.
Off topics: + Show Spoiler +Oh and just a note for people who say "these forums reeks of fanboyism i cant bear to read".. If you dont want to read, dont, and no need to reply either.. Topics in forums are for people who cares about them to read n reply..
toadstool himself showed a non-trivial amount of fanboyism towards Blizzard as well.. Why is he dissing on the fanboys (like me) now?
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Off topic but when nada switched to SC2, I recall seeing a thread saying that all his BW records were stricken from the record, was anything ever done to boxer's record when he swapped to SC2? I don't recall seeing a thread about it, but what did nada do to piss off kespa to have all his records removed? he must of done something if only his records got removed and boxer's didn't.
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10387 Posts
On October 30 2010 11:58 Lokian wrote: People are going over the starcraft intel classic S4 pull-out... again? I thought it was already stated as a fact that the KeSPA demanded broadcasting fees of their players, but gomTV said that didn't have the right to demand fees when.. gomTV already held IP rights to hold tournaments while KeSPA did not.
KeSPA pulled out their players. If you think having another league is too stressful, players like jaedong/flash can compete in two league finals at once. If you think the players wanted to boycott themselves for no apparent reason.. (why would they care about viewership?? They're playing starcraft for the prize am I right??).
Also, KeSPA is well-known for limiting players their right to play other games and shit so FYI. Gretech talked about this already, and even Blizzard Mike Morhaime took a stab at it too, so I don't understand why people keep insisting differently.
Anyways, I resisted but I'm weak to trolls. what the fuck? Classic S4 died because only five teams were up to participate in it. KeSPA did not do anything with the players, it was the teams themselves like SKT who pulled their players because it was interfering with Proleague practice time and increasing the workload of their top players.
Hey, KeSPA even gave a seal of approval the second season (here), but pulled it the third season because too few teams were participating. How does that work for your argument?
Issues over IP rights (Blizzard's unreasonable demands/GOM getting the license) and everything happened well after season 4 died
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Estonia4504 Posts
On October 30 2010 10:47 toadstool wrote: Also, some people are saying KESPA has every right to pull out their 'employees' for playing a rival tournament like GSL etc. etc. economics etc.
If you look at Blizzard's side, why would you want to deal with competitors using YOUR OWN PRODUCT to compete against your brand new tournament? Who ignore your IP rights to YOUR OWN GAME that you developed?
It doesn't make sense.
Are we talking desires or financial arguments here? Because I have never heard anyone claim that such behavior is irrational on the surface. It's just also counterproductive.. However, if we want to see BW continue, the players need a certain workload to be capable to perform at their top performance, and we want stable sponsors and broadcasters, like OGN and MBC. These stations paid a lot of money to uphold their team, while GOM's contribution to the scene was english casters and not a lot more. This choice is completely rational as well.
I personally don't want Blizzard to succeed in order for BW to live. Because the above mentioned behavior sounds rational, and because Blizzard don't just take their players away but could well shut down the scene with irrational demands the moment they want to under shared control. So why would I possibly root for Blizzard?
I don't care about SC2. I don't care about "E-SPORTS!" at large (although I don't really think that such IP-right enforcement would be beneficial for E-sports). I want BW to survive.
P.S. Why do you put quotation marks around employees? They all have contracts.
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Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about .
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On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about .
Hear hear!
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On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about . That is very childish arguments you give. I came from BW. Been watching this game since gom classic (bought starcraft in 1998). There are a lot of posters who want sc2 and bw to continue, there are tons of arguments why Bw is better than sc2, there were tons of people spamming Sc2 forums how good Bw is or how bad teamliquid has become since starcraft2 and complaining why day9 doesn't do BW dailies. I respect Bw and I respect Blizzard, because of the high quality games they deliver.
But I hate when people in this forum think that KeSPA is some godlike organization that only brings good to BW scene. THAT pisses me off.
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On October 30 2010 21:52 AyJay wrote:But I hate when people in this forum think that KeSPA is some godlike organization that only brings good to BW scene. THAT pisses me off.
Find me ONE person who actually believes that. T________T
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On October 30 2010 21:52 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about . That is very childish arguments you give. I came from BW. Been watching this game since gom classic (bought starcraft in 1998). There are a lot of posters who want sc2 and bw to continue, there are tons of arguments why Bw is better than sc2, there were tons of people spamming Sc2 forums how good Bw is or how bad teamliquid has become since starcraft2 and complaining why day9 doesn't do BW dailies. I respect Bw and I respect Blizzard, because of the high quality games they deliver. But I hate when people in this forum think that KeSPA is some godlike organization that only brings good to BW scene. THAT pisses me off.
Thats your opinion and other people are entitled to theirs too its not a matter of childish i just stated the very fact every new comers who come to brood war forum and post very not respective words to the bw forumers . For example " BW IS GOING TO F*CKING die " "Time to move on " . thats their problem if someone believes what ever we want . Blizzard isn't a saint itself you do know they are taking very active actions that doesn't point to what so ever friendly .We are not treating kespa as gods but as people who cares about the game and who establish starcraft as a game that we all can enjoy now.
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So because you get trolled we should split TL into some sort of SC1/SC2 rivalry? Come on. There is trolling on both sides (more from BW before the whole IP issue, more from SC2 afterwards), and on the Internet in general. It is nothing new.
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The sc2 trolls are annoying though, and it really hurts having a proper discussion. They all sound like gamefaq noobs that couldn't even be bothered to google (as basic as resarch on the topic can get) a few facts before they rage on and on.
That being said, i <3 SC2 and BW
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On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about .
This goes both ways, it's not like BW players are saints. I'm in IRC chat a decent amount, and a lot of times a SC2 event would be going on and some random BW player would just rage [somewhat understandable since BW is going through a rough patch... and it's entirely possible that the leagues can be shut down] at everyone and make it sound like all the SC2 people is singlehandedly destroying BW by enjoy SC2.
The worse is when some there's a BW and SC2 event on at the same time. chat just degrades down to a BW vs SC2 flame war. this probably happens less on the forums since BW viewers have been on the forums longer and know better (IE doing that will get you banned). IRC is filled with ridiculous trolls and Quakenet has like a 30 person banlist.
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Russian Federation4 Posts
Koreans killed BW around the world, koreans will kill SC2 very soon. Nobody wants to watch korean gosus destroying European or American guys like children, maybe just some crazy fans of RTS. I even don't know what better for Blizzard-koreans, playing SC2 or not)))
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JIJIyO
Canada1957 Posts
I think I should stop reading anything past the 1st post for anything Blizz/Kespa related lol.
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On October 30 2010 21:21 writer22816 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about . Hear hear!
Show me a post in this thread where an sc2 player is hating on Brood War saying that.
All I've ever encountered in these threads are bw hardcores calling GOMTV crap and saying Blizzard should die.
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On October 31 2010 16:19 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 21:21 writer22816 wrote:On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about . Hear hear! Show me a post in this thread where an sc2 player is hating on Brood War saying that. All I've ever encountered in these threads are bw hardcores calling GOMTV crap and saying Blizzard should die.
Exactly my thought... I like Starcraft I, and Starcraft 2. They're both games. One just has more history.
Not the first time I've seen this kind of snowball effect. One person carries the torch, other follow, chaos breaks out. Take a step back.
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On October 31 2010 16:19 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 21:21 writer22816 wrote:On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about . Hear hear! Show me a post in this thread where an sc2 player is hating on Brood War saying that. All I've ever encountered in these threads are bw hardcores calling GOMTV crap and saying Blizzard should die.
There are, and there are many.. I am in a hurry so i cant spend time searching for them but there are many of random comments like "BW should die so we can have SC2 proleague" or similar stuffs.. And mind you, those are posted in BW forums (wtf?).. They posted those in LR threads of some on-going Proleague matches even
I dont read SC2 forums so i have no idea if any one post there and defile ur sacred forums with our ancient stuffs.. I do hope there are few, if not none.
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On October 31 2010 16:19 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 21:21 writer22816 wrote:On October 30 2010 17:52 Sawamura wrote: Sc2 players will hate broodwar players and want brood war to die it's simple to as that .That's the only reason you will see those poster keep spamming with all their freaking arguments about why sc2 should stomp over bw dominance and call broodwar player elitists . Every thread that has blizzard and kespa in the news you will see this creatures coming out of the depth to bear their fangs with all due respects to their revolutionize game that bear its success from brood war . You have to respect the roots and the precedent that it has been set for many years . You don't see broodwar players flooding the freaking sc2 thread with hatred messages don't you ??? Just leave broodwar alone and go back to your perfect game that you all rage about . Hear hear! Show me a post in this thread where an sc2 player is hating on Brood War saying that. All I've ever encountered in these threads are bw hardcores calling GOMTV crap and saying Blizzard should die.
You've gotta be joking. There are just as many if not more posts where people new to the scene hate on BW.
You musn't be paying attention if you haven't see just as many "die Kespa" style posts.
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On October 30 2010 10:47 toadstool wrote: Also, some people are saying KESPA has every right to pull out their 'employees' for playing a rival tournament like GSL etc. etc. economics etc.
If you look at Blizzard's side, why would you want to deal with competitors using YOUR OWN PRODUCT to compete against your brand new tournament? Who ignore your IP rights to YOUR OWN GAME that you developed?
It doesn't make sense.
Because KeSPA is not a competitor until Blizzard actually decided it was, and clearly greatly benefited from it over the years. If your fine with YOUR OWN GAME selling 6 million copies in Korea because of publicity generated from leagues you knew about all along, then it's funny to try and turn around and say you never agreed with it.
GOM was of zero benefit in any way to KeSPA and its teams, and like already mentioned they didn't decide to shut it down anyway it was teams decisions right from the start to pull out.
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I think BW sold most of their copies before KeSPA was even born lol
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On November 01 2010 18:40 AyJay wrote: I think BW sold most of their copies before KeSPA was even born lol
I think you're clearly wrong if you're taking the stance Blizzard hardly benefited from Kespa's activities.
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On November 01 2010 18:44 Rikstah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 18:40 AyJay wrote: I think BW sold most of their copies before KeSPA was even born lol I think you're clearly wrong if you're taking the stance Blizzard hardly benefited from Kespa's activities. Just saying that SC/BW was a hit in Korea way before televised matches and creation of KeSPA
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On November 01 2010 18:47 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 18:44 Rikstah wrote:On November 01 2010 18:40 AyJay wrote: I think BW sold most of their copies before KeSPA was even born lol I think you're clearly wrong if you're taking the stance Blizzard hardly benefited from Kespa's activities. Just saying that SC/BW was a hit in Korea way before televised matches and creation of KeSPA
Yeah true the game was a hit. I still think though that BW has lived as long as it did solely because of Kespa's efforts.
Organising the teams, the leagues, making new maps... I dare say Kespa has put just as many years in for BW as blizzard did.
Making the game / keeping the game fresh are different things I know. But damn blizzard should show a bit more appreciation. As it is already stated in fact now that Kespa doesn't make any profit from the pro league, the companies simply wanna sponsor (as a way of advertising).
Whether its legal or not, Blizzard appears to be capitalizing on the E sports scene that kespa built.
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On November 01 2010 18:52 Rikstah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 18:47 AyJay wrote:On November 01 2010 18:44 Rikstah wrote:On November 01 2010 18:40 AyJay wrote: I think BW sold most of their copies before KeSPA was even born lol I think you're clearly wrong if you're taking the stance Blizzard hardly benefited from Kespa's activities. Just saying that SC/BW was a hit in Korea way before televised matches and creation of KeSPA Yeah true the game was a hit. I still think though that BW has lived as long as it did solely because of Kespa's efforts. Organising the teams, the leagues, making new maps... I dare say Kespa has put just as many years in for BW as blizzard did. Making the game / keeping the game fresh are different things I know. But damn blizzard should show a bit more appreciation. As it is already stated in fact now that Kespa doesn't make any profit from the pro league, the companies simply wanna sponsor (as a way of advertising). Whether its legal or not, Blizzard appears to be capitalizing on the E sports scene that kespa built. Blizzard always showed appreciation to E-sports but somehow people are stubborn to see it. Have you guys forgot when Blizzard injected a large amount of money to original GOM invitational during the shitfest KeSPA and other organizations were doing? What about worldwide invitationals and Blizzcon? Have you read the fact that they have been negotiating with these companies since 2007? Have you thought that even if organization KeSPA doesn't make money the organizations behind it (teams, sponsors) do?
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The shitfest, as you put it, happened after blizzard teamed up with gomtv. It was one of the reasons why there was a "shitfest" at all. First three seasons went unhindered. Then blizzard chimed in.
You're also forgetting how shitty the production level of blizzcons have been during all those years.
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On November 01 2010 19:30 maybenexttime wrote: The shitfest, as you put it, happened after blizzard teamed up with gomtv. It was one of the reasons why there was a "shitfest" at all. First three seasons went unhindered. Then blizzard chimed in.
You're also forgetting how shitty the production level of blizzcons have been during all those years. Blizzard injected money to GOM because they didn't wanted it to die. Sadly it didn't work. It was when KeSPA basically said to blizzard "BW belongs to us, not you".
You can't blame Blizzard for bad production level for tournaments in Blizzcon, because you need to realize it's a massive convention with THOUSANDS of people in it. Tournaments are just small part of it.
Also Blizzard didn't shut down their BW servers, didn't shutdown iccup even though it allows for pirating and kept BW balance and bugfix patches rolling up until 2009. Don't tell me Blizzard has done nothing for e-sports and this game.
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5003 Posts
On November 02 2010 00:27 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2010 19:30 maybenexttime wrote: The shitfest, as you put it, happened after blizzard teamed up with gomtv. It was one of the reasons why there was a "shitfest" at all. First three seasons went unhindered. Then blizzard chimed in.
You're also forgetting how shitty the production level of blizzcons have been during all those years. Blizzard injected money to GOM because they didn't wanted it to die. Sadly it didn't work. It was when KeSPA basically said to blizzard "BW belongs to us, not you". You can't blame Blizzard for bad production level for tournaments in Blizzcon, because you need to realize it's a massive convention with THOUSANDS of people in it. Tournaments are just small part of it. Also Blizzard didn't shut down their BW servers, didn't shutdown iccup even though it allows for pirating and kept BW balance and bugfix patches rolling up until 2009. Don't tell me Blizzard has done nothing for e-sports and this game.
Blizzard injected money to GOM? How do you know this? All you know is "Blizzard gave GOM rights for 1 won", nothing past that.
It didn't work not because "KeSPA basically said to blizzard "BW belongs to us, not you", but because 1) GOM TV had terrible production in all their games. You can remember it all you want with Nostalgia but GOM leagues in Korea were nothing short of a joke in production quality. Teams started pulling from GOM because they thought it was worthless and wanted their players to concentrate on the leagues that matter (Proleague, OSL, MSL). Are you surprised SKT was the one who engineered this exodus, considering how hypercompetitive SKT is? Who prevented their players from participating in Individual Starleagues at times, who prevents their players from doing interviews during the season, who cares about winning Proleague? The entire situation had nothing to do with "IP rights" and it had all to do with "GOM TV Sucks"
Yes, you can't blame Blizzard for not having a decent SC: BW tournament because it has "Thousands" of people in it? Do you realize that the Progame scenes organize much bigger events than that? What stops Blizzard from hiring OGN/MBC to help them set up tournaments? Or... even GOM? Absolutely nothing.
Yes, because Blizzard keeps their BW servers online it means they still care? No, they leave it online because it literally takes no effort on them considering they stopped patching and every other game you will play on battle.net is filled with god damn hackers. Are you seriously interpreting "Well they let iccup stay online" as a sign that Blizzard cares? That's 100% a sign that they *don't* care enough to put in any effort for many reasons.
Please, SHUT UP. I can absolutely guarantee a HUGE majority of you don't know anything close to the full story behind this so stop flaunting your ignorant remarks like it means something, unless you really enjoy flinging mud like each other on the literally nothing you all know (not just you, but this last paragraph is aimed at anyone who still posts bullshit in this thread)
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@Milkis Got to agree with people's preconceived thoughts or delusion that they know everything about the deal and in outs of Blizzard and Kespa hence keeping on posting although like you said this thread mainly are for lurkers to be hang out here I guess and start arguing between each other .
In the end what else can we do when we receive news like this other than discuss it to the death ?Whole thing is open to the public though and thats where it get ugly .I am definitely going to stay out of it from posting in this thread because despite the heated argument posted by some users it's going no where and I don't feel like even putting my time in answering their "QUESTIONS" and provide SOURCE to my statements .Finally what are the use of arguing between ourselves as if blizzard employee is going to open up this thread and see's oh the so community cares about broodwar or even bother to take into account any of the arguments here . That's nonsense , will never ever happen unless cows or pigs start flying out there in my window .
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Btw Blizzard don't even host the BW servers, that's why they are still up. When you log on Euro it says 'hosted by Telus'. So they don't even do that. And they have not patched for ages when it really needs it because of hacks. From what i heard it was just one guy doing the patches anyway for years.
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On November 02 2010 00:40 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 00:27 AyJay wrote:On November 01 2010 19:30 maybenexttime wrote: The shitfest, as you put it, happened after blizzard teamed up with gomtv. It was one of the reasons why there was a "shitfest" at all. First three seasons went unhindered. Then blizzard chimed in.
You're also forgetting how shitty the production level of blizzcons have been during all those years. Blizzard injected money to GOM because they didn't wanted it to die. Sadly it didn't work. It was when KeSPA basically said to blizzard "BW belongs to us, not you". You can't blame Blizzard for bad production level for tournaments in Blizzcon, because you need to realize it's a massive convention with THOUSANDS of people in it. Tournaments are just small part of it. Also Blizzard didn't shut down their BW servers, didn't shutdown iccup even though it allows for pirating and kept BW balance and bugfix patches rolling up until 2009. Don't tell me Blizzard has done nothing for e-sports and this game. Blizzard injected money to GOM? How do you know this? All you know is "Blizzard gave GOM rights for 1 won", nothing past that.
Yes they did. Quoting my previous post somewhere in previous threads.
1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events.
It's funny because I have to repeat these posts everytime to defend what I am saying.
edit: source is gosugamers which apparently sources teamliquid. Can't seem to find source in TL except for this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95656
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On November 02 2010 02:15 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 00:40 Milkis wrote:On November 02 2010 00:27 AyJay wrote:On November 01 2010 19:30 maybenexttime wrote: The shitfest, as you put it, happened after blizzard teamed up with gomtv. It was one of the reasons why there was a "shitfest" at all. First three seasons went unhindered. Then blizzard chimed in.
You're also forgetting how shitty the production level of blizzcons have been during all those years. Blizzard injected money to GOM because they didn't wanted it to die. Sadly it didn't work. It was when KeSPA basically said to blizzard "BW belongs to us, not you". You can't blame Blizzard for bad production level for tournaments in Blizzcon, because you need to realize it's a massive convention with THOUSANDS of people in it. Tournaments are just small part of it. Also Blizzard didn't shut down their BW servers, didn't shutdown iccup even though it allows for pirating and kept BW balance and bugfix patches rolling up until 2009. Don't tell me Blizzard has done nothing for e-sports and this game. Blizzard injected money to GOM? How do you know this? All you know is "Blizzard gave GOM rights for 1 won", nothing past that. Yes they did. Quoting my previous post somewhere in previous threads. Show nested quote +1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events. It's funny because I have to repeat these posts everytime to defend what I am saying. edit: source is gosugamers which apparently sources teamliquid. Can't seem to find source in TL except for this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95656 lol AyJay, you've already been corrected about the so called 'facts' you're spewing by quite a few people (myself included). You already tried to link to 3rd hand 'sources' who take TL translations and very liberally try to sum them up, and are now actually going to bother to argue with one of said translators? you're either very dense or just trolling at this point.
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On November 02 2010 03:06 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 02:15 AyJay wrote:On November 02 2010 00:40 Milkis wrote:On November 02 2010 00:27 AyJay wrote:On November 01 2010 19:30 maybenexttime wrote: The shitfest, as you put it, happened after blizzard teamed up with gomtv. It was one of the reasons why there was a "shitfest" at all. First three seasons went unhindered. Then blizzard chimed in.
You're also forgetting how shitty the production level of blizzcons have been during all those years. Blizzard injected money to GOM because they didn't wanted it to die. Sadly it didn't work. It was when KeSPA basically said to blizzard "BW belongs to us, not you". You can't blame Blizzard for bad production level for tournaments in Blizzcon, because you need to realize it's a massive convention with THOUSANDS of people in it. Tournaments are just small part of it. Also Blizzard didn't shut down their BW servers, didn't shutdown iccup even though it allows for pirating and kept BW balance and bugfix patches rolling up until 2009. Don't tell me Blizzard has done nothing for e-sports and this game. Blizzard injected money to GOM? How do you know this? All you know is "Blizzard gave GOM rights for 1 won", nothing past that. Yes they did. Quoting my previous post somewhere in previous threads. 1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events. It's funny because I have to repeat these posts everytime to defend what I am saying. edit: source is gosugamers which apparently sources teamliquid. Can't seem to find source in TL except for this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95656 lol AyJay, you've already been corrected about the so called 'facts' you're spewing by quite a few people (myself included). You already tried to link to 3rd hand 'sources' who take TL translations and very liberally try to sum them up, and are now actually going to bother to argue with one of said translators? you're either very dense or just trolling at this point. Hmm I didn't knew these sources are incorrect, didn't checked responses. I say what I know based on sources if they are wrong than yeah, feel free to correct them. I base my opinions on sources.
Oh and I know that Milkis is a translator and I respect that, but it doesn't mean he's automatically right.
But I think your right - I've been arguing too much.
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5003 Posts
On November 02 2010 02:15 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2010 00:40 Milkis wrote:On November 02 2010 00:27 AyJay wrote:On November 01 2010 19:30 maybenexttime wrote: The shitfest, as you put it, happened after blizzard teamed up with gomtv. It was one of the reasons why there was a "shitfest" at all. First three seasons went unhindered. Then blizzard chimed in.
You're also forgetting how shitty the production level of blizzcons have been during all those years. Blizzard injected money to GOM because they didn't wanted it to die. Sadly it didn't work. It was when KeSPA basically said to blizzard "BW belongs to us, not you". You can't blame Blizzard for bad production level for tournaments in Blizzcon, because you need to realize it's a massive convention with THOUSANDS of people in it. Tournaments are just small part of it. Also Blizzard didn't shut down their BW servers, didn't shutdown iccup even though it allows for pirating and kept BW balance and bugfix patches rolling up until 2009. Don't tell me Blizzard has done nothing for e-sports and this game. Blizzard injected money to GOM? How do you know this? All you know is "Blizzard gave GOM rights for 1 won", nothing past that. Yes they did. Quoting my previous post somewhere in previous threads. Show nested quote +1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events. It's funny because I have to repeat these posts everytime to defend what I am saying. edit: source is gosugamers which apparently sources teamliquid. Can't seem to find source in TL except for this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95656
So you're gonna use a bullshit post that is obviously biased that you can't even find the source for to try and say Blizzard injected money into it? Especially a post that claims that GOM was getting more popular.... lol
50 million won is chump change, the prize pool of that is tiny dude -_-;;;;; that's not "pumping in money". If 50 million won "doubled" GOM's prize pool, ans OSL/MSL has 40 million won just for the winner (20 million for the runner up), how does your story add up -_-
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Man, you shit all over that kid.
Its nice seeing people who really have no clue put in there place though, hah.
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People can argue the legality of whether blizzard has a right to do what they're doing. But to argue that Blizzard even gave half a shit about BW esports as Kespa did is a total joke.
In fact, they didn't care at all, about the usage or anything, they didn't care when 60,000 people showed up to an OSL final...
They only cared when Starcraft 2 was announced. Its just fishy, I'm not legal professional so I dont know how the court case is going to pan out when they (eventually) get sued. But the intentions are just so obviously dodgy.
And people gotta stop arguing that theres some kind secret stream of huge profits. It seems pretty obvious to me that BW on TV doesn't make THAT much money. The companies that sponsor teams just get good publicity from it.
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