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On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong
GOM was never a KeSPA league, and matches there didn't count for KeSPA rank. In addition, it had a much lower viewership and the live audience for matches was close to nonexistent (as is the case with the GSL in the GOM studios). While the league wasn't approved by KeSPA (hence no rank), it was teams and players themselves that said that it wasn't a priority for them, and yes, some teams decided to pull out. The only teams that never participated were MBCGAME HERO, OnGameNet Sparkyz and eSTRO, for obvious reasons.
Teams participating in the GOMTV Classic (or willing to participate in the case of S4):
Season 1 (7 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN.
Season 2 (9 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, SKT, ACE.
Season 3 (8 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, ACE.
Season 4 (5 Teams): CJ, Stars, Oz, Wemade, KHAN.
With S4, GOM decided not go through with it with only 5 teams (only 2 less than S1).
If it was a direct order by KeSPA, none of the players of any of the teams would have played. Clearly that wasn't the case. The teams didn't show as much interest in the GOMTV Classic because its ratings were low and the koreans didn't really care for it.
Even if the reason was that KeSPA pressured the teams to not participate, there still wouldn't be much wrong with that since the players are under contract by KeSPA. In the end, it was GOM that wanted to run a league using KeSPA players, instead of an open tournament.
As for the GSL situation, these players are getting paid by their teams to play BW and practice for SPL/OSL/MSL matches. Having them neglect their training to play SC2 on the side so they can participate in the GSL takes away from their BW focus and time, so why should the teams allow it? If they want to do so then great, but they can't expect their teams to continue to pay/house/feed them if they don't do what they were contracted to do.
+ Show Spoiler +In other words: you're wrong
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Estonia4505 Posts
The argument that professional BW players should be allowed to play SC2 on the side feels similar to a statement that Rooney should be allowed to ditch practice in order to play a bit of Baseball on the side.
Why? Because I don't like soccer and I do like baseball.
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On October 30 2010 02:43 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong GOM was never a KeSPA league, and matches there didn't count for KeSPA rank. In addition, it had a much lower viewership and the live audience for matches was close to nonexistent (as is the case with the GSL in the GOM studios). While the league wasn't approved by KeSPA (hence no rank), it was teams and players themselves that said that it wasn't a priority for them, and yes, some teams decided to pull out. The only teams that never participated were MBCGAME HERO, OnGameNet Sparkyz and eSTRO, for obvious reasons. Teams participating in the GOMTV Classic (or willing to participate in the case of S4):Season 1 (7 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN. Season 2 (9 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, SKT, ACE. Season 3 (8 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, ACE. Season 4 (5 Teams): CJ, Stars, Oz, Wemade, KHAN. With S4, GOM decided not go through with it with only 5 teams (only 2 less than S1). If it was a direct order by KeSPA, none of the players of any of the teams would have played. Clearly that wasn't the case. The teams didn't show as much interest in the GOMTV Classic because its ratings were low and the koreans didn't really care for it. Even if the reason was that KeSPA pressured the teams to not participate, there still wouldn't be much wrong with that since the players are under contract by KeSPA. In the end, it was GOM that wanted to run a league using KeSPA players, instead of an open tournament. As for the GSL situation, these players are getting paid by their teams to play BW and practice for SPL/OSL/MSL matches. Having them neglect their training to play SC2 on the side so they can participate in the GSL takes away from their BW focus and time, so why should the teams allow it? If they want to do so then great, but they can't expect their teams to continue to pay/house/feed them if they don't do what they were contracted to do. + Show Spoiler +In other words: you're wrong
So I took time to dig through interwebz for whole story
1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events.
Source:
+ Show Spoiler +http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/10690-kespa-vs-blizzard-1-0
Again I'm not trying to say who's wrong or who's right I'm just posting facts. I will not try to force you guys think that what Blizzard is doing is acceptable because that's just pointless.
edit: my english writing skills aren't great but I'm trying.
Anyway whole point is that teams wanted to participate in gom. Players wanted to participate in Gom. It was KeSPA who forced some teams to pull off and therefore forcing GomTV to shut their invitational (what's the point when big names are gone?)
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On October 30 2010 04:21 AyJay wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 02:43 moopie wrote:On October 29 2010 22:19 AyJay wrote:On October 29 2010 17:43 Woosung wrote:
For the last time, Kespa never prevented any players from participating in GOM.. What do you mean? In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee Or you're talking about GSL? Kespa players aren't allowed to participate in any events that aren't associated with KeSPA thats why guys like boxer, nada are forced to quit BW progaming just to participate in GSL. In other words: you're wrong GOM was never a KeSPA league, and matches there didn't count for KeSPA rank. In addition, it had a much lower viewership and the live audience for matches was close to nonexistent (as is the case with the GSL in the GOM studios). While the league wasn't approved by KeSPA (hence no rank), it was teams and players themselves that said that it wasn't a priority for them, and yes, some teams decided to pull out. The only teams that never participated were MBCGAME HERO, OnGameNet Sparkyz and eSTRO, for obvious reasons. Teams participating in the GOMTV Classic (or willing to participate in the case of S4):Season 1 (7 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN. Season 2 (9 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, SKT, ACE. Season 3 (8 Teams): CJ, Stars, KTF, Oz, STX, WeMade, KHAN, ACE. Season 4 (5 Teams): CJ, Stars, Oz, Wemade, KHAN. With S4, GOM decided not go through with it with only 5 teams (only 2 less than S1). If it was a direct order by KeSPA, none of the players of any of the teams would have played. Clearly that wasn't the case. The teams didn't show as much interest in the GOMTV Classic because its ratings were low and the koreans didn't really care for it. Even if the reason was that KeSPA pressured the teams to not participate, there still wouldn't be much wrong with that since the players are under contract by KeSPA. In the end, it was GOM that wanted to run a league using KeSPA players, instead of an open tournament. As for the GSL situation, these players are getting paid by their teams to play BW and practice for SPL/OSL/MSL matches. Having them neglect their training to play SC2 on the side so they can participate in the GSL takes away from their BW focus and time, so why should the teams allow it? If they want to do so then great, but they can't expect their teams to continue to pay/house/feed them if they don't do what they were contracted to do. + Show Spoiler +In other words: you're wrong So I took time to dig through interwebz for whole story Show nested quote +1. KeSPA, Korea e-Sports regulator got in a fight with Blizzard over control of the future StarCraft II scene in South Korea.
2. Korean authorities sent Blizzard to deal with KeSPA or "die", basically.
3. Blizzard tried to negotiate with OGN and MBC, the two broadcasters of StarCraft in Korea, - negotiations went nowhere.
4. Blizzard replied by sponsoring GOM, a popular independent StarCraft broadcaster.
5. Over the course of three years GOM was becoming more and more popular, due it it's greater amounts of matches per broadcast, English commentary (by Tasteless), bigger prize pool and an overall more relaxing atmosphere for players.
6. Blizzard injected a considerable sum of cash into GOM, basically doubling it's prize pool and an overall budget, with a general idea of GOM becoming a main broadcaster of StarCraft and more importantly StarCraft II in Korea, whilst GOM was already televising StarCraft, WarCraft III and WoW tournaments.
7. KeSPA replied by denying certain teams they have influence over to participate in GOM events. Source: + Show Spoiler +http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft/news/10690-kespa-vs-blizzard-1-0 Again I'm not trying to say who's wrong or who's right I'm just posting facts. I will not try to force you guys think that what Blizzard is doing is acceptable because that's just pointless.
You do realize that gosugamers sources TL right?
Anyway, like I mentioned in my previous post, the so called "boycott" was 4 teams that participated in some of the seasons, plus 3 teams that didn't participate at all for obvious reasons, not because of anything having to do with Blizzard (OGN/MBC/IEG). Also (repeating my post above), had KeSPA wanted to shun GOM Classic altogether, 0 teams would have participated. Instead, you had 5 that were in all the seasons, and 4 more that were in some of the seasons.
Given that 3 of the team sponsors had conflicting interests and weren't interested in joining at all, that left 9 potential teams to play for GOM. The season participation numbers are actually pretty high given 9 potential teams (7, 9, 8, 5). It was GOM that decided that it wasn't worth it to them to run S4 with only 5 teams. My issue was that your statement "In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom because Gom didn't pay them broadcasting fee" was blatantly false.
On October 30 2010 04:21 AyJay wrote:
Anyway whole point is that teams wanted to participate in gom. Players wanted to participate in Gom. It was KeSPA who forced some teams to pull off and therefore forcing GomTV to shut their invitational (what's the point when big names are gone?)
Again, no it was the teams that pulled out. You are assuming that it was a word coming down from KeSPA, but your assumption doesn't explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams. You have to face the fact that as popular as GOMTV Classic may have been with the foreigner crowd, the koreans didn't care for it at all (and that matters to the sponsors), viewership in Korea was low, the commentators were bad and the teams saw it as yet one more things their players have to spend time on in addition to their schedule.
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It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could.
Does anyone really know what happened? Only those directly related would, so speculation based off of statements from either side shouldn't be taken as fact. That goes for both saying KeSPA pulled teams out, and saying they didn't. In other words, keep in mind that both situations could very well be real possibilities.
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On October 30 2010 05:12 xBillehx wrote:
It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could.
In that case, again it wouldn't be an order/ruling, it would be discouraging. I've already touched down on this in my post above, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for KeSPA to discourage teams from participating. The GOM Classic was a non-KeSPA ranked league, like the STX Masters, but unlike that it was one that took place during the active PL/OSL/MSL seasons. Time dedicated to practicing for it is time taken away from practicing for KeSPA leagues (this of course is also reasons for the individual Sponors/teams to want to pull out, assuming no KeSPA intervention to begin with).
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On October 30 2010 05:33 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:12 xBillehx wrote:
It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could. In that case, again it wouldn't be an order/ruling, it would be discouraging. I've already touched down on this in my post above, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for KeSPA to discourage teams from participating. The GOM Classic was a non-KeSPA ranked league, like the STX Masters or WCG, but unlike those it was one that took place during the active PL/OSL/MSL seasons. Time dedicated to practicing for it is time taken away from practicing for KeSPA leagues (this of course is also reasons for the individual Sponors/teams to want to pull out, assuming no KeSPA intervention to begin with).
Consider the possibility that it was an order.
Would KeSPA have banned the other teams from their leagues for continuing? Probably not, that'd be suicide, but some teams didn't risk it.
Were the teams who did pull out enough to shut down the GOMTV Classic 4? Yeah.
Did the league continue with the teams that were staying, forcing KeSPA to act on the order? No.
Do we know what would have happened if S4 continued? Not really.
With that kind of information are we able to make a statement on whether or not it was an order? No.
Again, without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^;
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Estonia4505 Posts
On October 30 2010 05:57 xBillehx wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:33 moopie wrote:On October 30 2010 05:12 xBillehx wrote:
It's been known for some time that there is internal conflict within KeSPA, so when making generalized statements about all teams keep that in mind. Does that explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams? It could. In that case, again it wouldn't be an order/ruling, it would be discouraging. I've already touched down on this in my post above, and it would have been perfectly reasonable for KeSPA to discourage teams from participating. The GOM Classic was a non-KeSPA ranked league, like the STX Masters or WCG, but unlike those it was one that took place during the active PL/OSL/MSL seasons. Time dedicated to practicing for it is time taken away from practicing for KeSPA leagues (this of course is also reasons for the individual Sponors/teams to want to pull out, assuming no KeSPA intervention to begin with). Consider the possibility that it was an order. Would KeSPA have banned the other teams from their leagues for continuing? Probably not, that'd be suicide, but some teams didn't risk it. Were the teams who did pull out enough to shut down the GOMTV Classic 4? Yeah. Did the league continue with the teams that were staying, forcing KeSPA to act on the order? No. Do we know what would have happened if S4 continued? Not really. With that kind of information are we able to make a statement on whether or not it was an order? No.Again, without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^;
Why do we assume it was an order in the first place, especially since discouragement appears to be a much more logical solution? You know, Occam's razor and all. This doesn't sound rational from that standpoint.
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On October 30 2010 05:57 xBillehx wrote:
Consider the possibility that it was an order.
ok 
Would KeSPA have banned the other teams from their leagues for continuing?
No, not banned, but it could have penalized them.
Were the teams who did pull out enough to shut down the GOMTV Classic 4?
Only because GOM chose not to go ahead with 5 teams (that much was unknown to KeSPA before GOM's decision, so you can't really say 'Yeah').
without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^;
Yes, its possible, but its also a reach. There is no real evidence hinting that this was the case, whereas it is more likely that KeSPA issued no such order since the league went on for as long as it did and there were still 5 out of 9 teams that wanted to participate. Possible doesn't mean likely, and regardless, whether or not KeSPA gave the order or if it was just the teams/sponsors individually deciding makes no difference on my original post to AyJay. For the 3rd time, I replied because he stated "In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom", when it was fact that not all the players were pulled. Why said teams pulled out is irrelevant imo, because whether it was on a team level, sponsor level, or KeSPA itself, it is all perfectly logical from all perspectives.
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On October 30 2010 06:14 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 05:57 xBillehx wrote:
Consider the possibility that it was an order. ok No, not banned, but it could have penalized them. Only because GOM chose not to go ahead with 5 teams (that much was unknown to KeSPA before GOM's decision, so you can't really say 'Yeah'). Show nested quote +without having directly being involved it's all speculation. There are arguments for both sides, so all TL can really do is keep an open mind rather than make definite statements. ^^; Yes, its possible, but its also a reach. There is no real evidence hinting that this was the case, whereas it is more likely that KeSPA issued no such order since the league went on for as long as it did and there were still 5 out of 9 teams that wanted to participate. Possible doesn't mean likely, and regardless, whether or not KeSPA gave the order or if it was just the teams/sponsors individually deciding makes no difference on my original post to AyJay. For the 3rd time, I replied because he stated "In 2008 Kespa pulled all their players from Gom", when it was fact that not all the players were pulled. Why said teams pulled out is irrelevant imo, because whether it was on a team level, sponsor level, or KeSPA itself, it is all perfectly logical from all perspectives.
I'm not defending AyJay at all. I commented after reading "You are assuming that it was a word coming down from KeSPA, but your assumption doesn't explain how/why it didn't effect certain teams." because I wanted to open you to an explanation of why it could be so. In that post I clearly said we (all of us) should keep an open mind, and you continued to argue against it for your conclusion, so I further explained reasons to keep an open mind. Again I'm not arguing for either side, just saying that no one should deem assumptions of why it happened as a fact unless directly involved. lol.
Edit: Though I do agree his statement was incorrect because not all teams did pull out. 
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The GOM seasons only purpose was to lay a foundation for SC2. I think they wanted to be a strong contester to the other Starleagues. But even if GOM is the only SC2 league, it is very much safe to say that without Ongamnet and MBC Blizzard looses the two most established major e-sport TV stations in the world. And whoever was in charge of fucking that up, should immediately be fired. The amount of exposure SC2 would have got would be much much higher.
So instead of doing all this bullshit Blizzard should go like this: "You've done some astonishing work for Brood War and we believe you have the necessary expertise in helping us with our new game. We give you two options. A you pay full licensing fees and you go on your way or B you pay this little symbolic fee but you have to run / build up a Starcraft 2 tournament". And guess what Blizzard. They would have done all their work for you! If the stations would have gotten good results they would make it big by themselves. Simply having SC2 on TELEVISION, as little and unimportant the first leagues would have been at first, would still be like having a free card to a super bowl commercial.
And the simple fact that their own greed in making a deal with gretech in order for them to remain in total control is a statement to how blatantly uninformed they are when it comes to the history of Korean Brood War with its more than 100 leagues / tournaments that took place. All of them needed sponsorship and all of them helped building up to what was one of the strongest e-sport scene in the history of ever.
So hats of to you, for a fail of epic proportions.
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This forum has become so angry and bitter that it's hard for me to visit because the threads are just never enjoyable...like this one. There's not much open, balanced discussion--instead it's largely one-sided bashing and ad hominem attacks. There's really nothing to do at this point but to wait and hope for the best.
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On October 30 2010 09:57 rift wrote:
This forum has become so angry and bitter that it's hard for me to visit because the threads are just never enjoyable...like this one. There's not much open, balanced discussion--instead it's largely one-sided bashing and ad hominem attacks. There's really nothing to do at this point but to wait and hope for the best.
Exactly this. The blind fanboyism from both sides just piss me off. Both sides pull up facts from their arses and pretend like it's legitimate, and that they're the ultimate expert lawyers working for KESPA/Blizzard.
If the case was so clear cut, there wouldn't be this much of a shit storm.
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On October 30 2010 10:41 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On October 30 2010 09:57 rift wrote:
This forum has become so angry and bitter that it's hard for me to visit because the threads are just never enjoyable...like this one. There's not much open, balanced discussion--instead it's largely one-sided bashing and ad hominem attacks. There's really nothing to do at this point but to wait and hope for the best. Exactly this. The blind fanboyism from both sides just piss me off. Both sides pull up facts from their arses and pretend like it's legitimate, and that they're the ultimate expert lawyers working for KESPA/Blizzard. If the case was so clear cut, there wouldn't be this much of a shit storm.
I just want the 2 games to coexist with BW and SC2 tournament together....
At this point, I can't really tell if SC2 have the potential to be as entertaining but I am waiting until all expos coming out.
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Also, some people are saying KESPA has every right to pull out their 'employees' for playing a rival tournament like GSL etc. etc. economics etc.
If you look at Blizzard's side, why would you want to deal with competitors using YOUR OWN PRODUCT to compete against your brand new tournament? Who ignore your IP rights to YOUR OWN GAME that you developed?
It doesn't make sense.
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hoping this ends WELL.... Don't take away my brood warz please!
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People are going over the starcraft intel classic S4 pull-out... again? I thought it was already stated as a fact that the KeSPA demanded broadcasting fees of their players, but gomTV said that didn't have the right to demand fees when.. gomTV already held IP rights to hold tournaments while KeSPA did not.
KeSPA pulled out their players. If you think having another league is too stressful, players like jaedong/flash can compete in two league finals at once. If you think the players wanted to boycott themselves for no apparent reason.. (why would they care about viewership?? They're playing starcraft for the prize am I right??).
Also, KeSPA is well-known for limiting players their right to play other games and shit so FYI. Gretech talked about this already, and even Blizzard Mike Morhaime took a stab at it too, so I don't understand why people keep insisting differently.
Anyways, I resisted but I'm weak to trolls.
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Good god, ur train of logic baffles me.
1/ From 2 to 3 means a 50% increment in workload, thats like working 8 hours a day and working 12 hours a day, go figure.
2/ You said "players like jaedong/flash" like they are random average players.. How many players out there that are like them? Just because they play two individual leagues at the same time and play them well doesnt say anything about whether other (lesser) players are capable of the same.
Off topics:
+ Show Spoiler +Oh and just a note for people who say "these forums reeks of fanboyism i cant bear to read".. If you dont want to read, dont, and no need to reply either.. Topics in forums are for people who cares about them to read n reply..
toadstool himself showed a non-trivial amount of fanboyism towards Blizzard as well.. Why is he dissing on the fanboys (like me) now?
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Off topic but when nada switched to SC2, I recall seeing a thread saying that all his BW records were stricken from the record, was anything ever done to boxer's record when he swapped to SC2? I don't recall seeing a thread about it, but what did nada do to piss off kespa to have all his records removed? he must of done something if only his records got removed and boxer's didn't.
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10387 Posts
On October 30 2010 11:58 Lokian wrote:
People are going over the starcraft intel classic S4 pull-out... again? I thought it was already stated as a fact that the KeSPA demanded broadcasting fees of their players, but gomTV said that didn't have the right to demand fees when.. gomTV already held IP rights to hold tournaments while KeSPA did not.
KeSPA pulled out their players. If you think having another league is too stressful, players like jaedong/flash can compete in two league finals at once. If you think the players wanted to boycott themselves for no apparent reason.. (why would they care about viewership?? They're playing starcraft for the prize am I right??).
Also, KeSPA is well-known for limiting players their right to play other games and shit so FYI. Gretech talked about this already, and even Blizzard Mike Morhaime took a stab at it too, so I don't understand why people keep insisting differently.
Anyways, I resisted but I'm weak to trolls.
what the fuck? Classic S4 died because only five teams were up to participate in it. KeSPA did not do anything with the players, it was the teams themselves like SKT who pulled their players because it was interfering with Proleague practice time and increasing the workload of their top players.
Hey, KeSPA even gave a seal of approval the second season (here), but pulled it the third season because too few teams were participating. How does that work for your argument?
Issues over IP rights (Blizzard's unreasonable demands/GOM getting the license) and everything happened well after season 4 died
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EPT
