“We are preparring the legal documents right now. We will sue MBCGame”
Blizzard finally decided to use the last card in the esports dispute. They announced that they will now take legal measures.
Paul Sams the COO of Blizzard announced to the Korean Press at Blizzcon that they will begin to take legal measures in their esports dispute.
He said "It is the last thing we can do at this point. Its our last option. We will sue MBCgame in a few days and Ongamenet could get sued as well. We are preparring for the dispute and will request preliminary injunction to stop broadcasting."
Man Blizzard's never cared for esports until this year...why don't they drop it and just let Sc1 carry on its own path? It's really not like people are gonna watch Sc1 and because of that never look at sc2. If anything it draws in more people.
No surprise really, aw well, that sucks. Hopefully PL can finish this season at least. Wonder how much court costs are relative to what Blizz wants them to pay for broadcast rights.
I don't know what is worse. That this actually is happening or that we are bound to get a massive amount of people here saying that this is a good thing.
Wait what happened in the last few days to make Blizzard decide to sue? I thought they were content to just let the PL season continue as long as negotiations between KeSPA and Gretech continued?
Now that I type that out it sounds like a completely separate issue. Jesus this whole thing has gotten complicated.
On October 23 2010 09:36 Shiragaku wrote: ...For some reason, I am supporting MBC over Blizzard. Is that normal?
Yeah, it is. Lotsa people are cuz they want BW to stay. The end of BW in SK meaning the end of eSport altogether. I HIGHLY doubt that the Korean companies would want to be in total control of a foreign company.
i dont see blizzard coming ahead in any way in court, what they want has gone beyond common sense from long ago, this is just the last desperation move from blizzard, hopefully it will fail
On October 23 2010 09:42 [White]NaDa wrote: i dont see blizzard coming ahead in any way in court, what they want has gone beyond common sense from long ago, this is just the last desperation move from blizzard, hopefully it will fail
On October 23 2010 09:38 mustaju wrote: I don't know what is worse. That this actually is happening or that we are bound to get a massive amount of people here saying that this is a good thing.
The faster this bullshit is overturned the better. And even if they lose, the Korean government is pretty serious to remain no.1 in esports. They will probably make a law against it.
SC2 esports will suck until Kespa can gun their own league. And SC BW esports will die if Blizzard gets their right. Plus the hundred millions of esports sponsorship money will be used to sponsor different things. Maybe F1 or something.
On October 23 2010 09:44 StatiC)Ex( wrote: I'm laughing at the people who think the death of BW, will be the death of E-sports.
Developers automatically owning any esports league/esports player/esports broadcasting rights through IP laws/ELUA is the death of esports.
On October 23 2010 09:20 Ares[EffOrt] wrote: .................................................
they never cared before, now suddenly with the release of sc2 they want to bring up these "ip rights" so so sad
I could understand this argument but, then again before SC2, Korean BW leagues really didn't affect Blizzard's revenue. With the release of SC2 sadly now broadcasting of Proleague DIRECTLY affects viewers watching GSL for example. If the people watching Proleague would watch GSL is another argument but, now you basically have one companies products directly competing against each other. While Blizzard could deal with that if they were getting money from BW, since they aren't, they feel their only option is to stop the broadcasting.
I still wonder about exactly what happened when Hanbitsoft was the Blizzard distributor (rights holder?) in South Korea and part of the scene (even sponsoring Stars), and if the rights were somehow revoked?
Korean BW leagues gave Blizzard 250 million of game sales. That's half of all the sales they made. It is this free advertising they are sueing now. One in every 10 Koreans owns a copy of SC BW. But Koreans pirate too much, so they get sued..
On October 23 2010 09:44 StatiC)Ex( wrote: I'm laughing at the people who think the death of BW, will be the death of E-sports.
Unless Blizzard goes on and sponsors the players in GSL, e-Sport is over. And Koreans progamers will probably lose all their jobs and thousands of people will lose jobs. Korea will probably ban all Blizzard's product this way.
On October 23 2010 09:47 Meriones wrote: Korean BW leagues gave Blizzard 250 million of game sales. That's half of all the sales they made. It is this free advertising they are sueing now. One in every 10 Koreans owns a copy of SC BW. But Koreans pirate too much, so they get sued..
Those game sales barely mean anything when they have WoW profits, what Blizzard really wants is a chunk of the E-Sports scene.
On October 23 2010 09:20 Ares[EffOrt] wrote: .................................................
they never cared before, now suddenly with the release of sc2 they want to bring up these "ip rights" so so sad
I could understand this argument but, then again before SC2, Korean BW leagues really didn't affect Blizzard's revenue. With the release of SC2 sadly now broadcasting of Proleague DIRECTLY affects viewers watching GSL for example. If the people watching Proleague would watch GSL is another argument but, now you basically have one companies products directly competing against each other. While Blizzard could deal with that if they were getting money from BW, since they aren't, they feel their only option is to stop the broadcasting.
I don't blame them and we'll see the fallout.
Except one of the main reasons why sponsors see potential in SC2 is because of Korean BW success?
If the BW scene is prematurely destroyed, then people involved in the SC2 scene need to really take some time to consider what Blizzard will do once it feels it cannot profit from SC2 anymore. Especially since Blizzard won't need to go through the slow court process to shut down SC2.
On October 23 2010 09:44 teamsolid wrote: What are the Korean netizen reactions?
On PlayXP they seem to be hoping that Kespa dies
I feel like this is the general consensus even on TL among people who don't just blindly hate Blizzard because they're owned by Activision or w/e.
If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
I just wish for one of these threads people would stop with the emotionally driven bullshitting where they clearly aren't aware of all the facts (as if any of us are) yet are 100% sure that they're in the right and that KeSPA/Blizzard/Uganda are more evil than a hackneyed villain from some bizarre james bond fan fiction site.
That said FUCK BLIZZARD THEY ATE MY CHILDREN WHILE KESPA RAPED MY EAR
On October 23 2010 09:20 Ares[EffOrt] wrote: .................................................
they never cared before, now suddenly with the release of sc2 they want to bring up these "ip rights" so so sad
I could understand this argument but, then again before SC2, Korean BW leagues really didn't affect Blizzard's revenue. With the release of SC2 sadly now broadcasting of Proleague DIRECTLY affects viewers watching GSL for example. If the people watching Proleague would watch GSL is another argument but, now you basically have one companies products directly competing against each other. While Blizzard could deal with that if they were getting money from BW, since they aren't, they feel their only option is to stop the broadcasting.
I don't blame them and we'll see the fallout.
Except one of the main reasons why sponsors see potential in SC2 is because of Korean BW success?
If the BW scene is prematurely destroyed, then people involved in the SC2 scene need to really take some time to consider what Blizzard will do once it feels it cannot profit from SC2 anymore. Especially since Blizzard won't need to go through the slow court process to shut down SC2.
Seeing the mindless agreement of the majority of SC2 fans to whatever Blizzard is doing (except for balance and chat channels, of course), I don't see that as a surfacing concern until it is too late.
On October 23 2010 09:44 teamsolid wrote: What are the Korean netizen reactions?
On PlayXP they seem to be hoping that Kespa dies
I feel like this is the general consensus even on TL among people who don't just blindly hate Blizzard because they're owned by Activision or w/e.
If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
If Kespa dies, BW DEFINITELY CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT IT!
People's blind hate for Kespa has to stop. It's a disgrace to see people in a SC BW forum say that. For 8 years we in the west watched with amazement what Korea was doing. Don't forget where they come from. They were basically a third world country before the Korean war, which spit the country and destroyed it. Now they are world leaders in esports thanks to their government, corporations and professional teams. They together form Kespa.
We have laughed and ridiculed Blizzard and WCG all these years for being clueless how to run a tournament. We even laughed at Gretech and their money begging.
But now suddenly Kespa is unprofessional? People need to get a grip.
And all this time the only real bad thing Kespa has ever done was enforce a rule that wasn't a very good one. But hey, if you have it, you need to enforce it. And it was changed right away. Yeah, what a failure Kespa is.
Also, there's no money in esports. Only advertising. And Blizzard got the best advertising but now they are ruining it by the backlash they will get from this case.
i read the neoGAF forums (where the OP got the article), and wow they are all for Blizzard and GOM and yet they don't want the individual leagues to go. i'm glad TL is a bastion of logic
To those saying Blizzard is autowin ezmode because it's their game, the crux of the case (to my knowledge, which may be incomplete) isn't who owns the game. It's who owns the matches played on the game. Blizz and Kespa are fighting over the right to broadcast the matches played, not ownership of the software. Kespa does have a very legitimate argument that broadcasting should be free, namely that the games are the creative work of the players and that Starcraft is just a medium for expression. Or so I think.
On October 23 2010 09:44 StatiC)Ex( wrote: I'm laughing at the people who think the death of BW, will be the death of E-sports.
I'm laughing at the people who think SC2 is completely ready to take over from BW. BW is the first eSport that has truly taken hold in a culture and become accepted. Right now, SC2 might be big in Korea, but it's not yet ubiquitous. At the moment, if BW dies, then eSports will suffer greatly.
On October 23 2010 09:59 infinitestory wrote: i read the neoGAF forums (where the OP got the article), and wow they are all for Blizzard and GOM and yet they don't want the individual leagues to go. i'm glad TL is a bastion of logic
To those saying Blizzard is autowin ezmode because it's their game, the crux of the case (to my knowledge, which may be incomplete) isn't who owns the game. It's who owns the matches played on the game. Blizz and Kespa are fighting over the right to broadcast the matches played, not ownership of the software. Kespa does have a very legitimate argument that broadcasting should be free, namely that the games are the creative work of the players and that Starcraft is just a medium for expression. Or so I think.
On October 23 2010 09:44 StatiC)Ex( wrote: I'm laughing at the people who think the death of BW, will be the death of E-sports.
I'm laughing at the people who think SC2 is completely ready to take over from BW. BW is the first eSport that has truly taken hold in a culture and become accepted. Right now, SC2 might be big in Korea, but it's not yet ubiquitous. At the moment, if BW dies, then eSports will suffer greatly.
It'd be interesting what the results of this case will do to WIPO and international law.
On October 23 2010 09:22 Rain... wrote: wow...-_- they are essentially suing the entire korean starcraft community.. good luck with that Blizzard
oh and thanks Blizzard for trying to kill all our favorite game
Funny thing is, blizzard will probably win.
I wouldn't be so sure. International IP isn't that cut and dry, and this case in particular is pretty iffy.
I mean, yeah, Blizzard made the game, but does that mean they have ownership of the esport itself? Bear in mind that they've also let BW broadcast on TV for years. They've had plenty of time to make their move. This case could go either way, imo. Still sucks though.
On October 23 2010 09:44 StatiC)Ex( wrote: I'm laughing at the people who think the death of BW, will be the death of E-sports.
BW is the only game being broadcast on TV right now. Everything else is small fries in comparison. The death of BW might not mean the end of esports as a whole, but it'll sure be a damn big blow.
Didn't the CEO of MBC say they got the rights to broadcast Proleague from a smaller Blizzard partner company? That being true I don't see how Blizzard suing will hold any water.
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
The companies definitely have representatives in kespa, but kespa is actually a distinct entity iirc
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
The companies definitely have representatives in kespa, but kespa is actually a distinct entity iirc
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
The companies definitely have representatives in kespa, but kespa is actually a distinct entity iirc
without BW .. there wont be SC2 .. you just wait fanboys.
think about it. if they can do this shit and win, blizzard can say "now, fuck off" to gretech and control it and then when they have another new title, they'll remove sc2 and force players to play another game.
but i really doubt blizzard will win, seriously. in a korean court? lololol
On October 23 2010 10:08 Vazze wrote: Why is OGN being sued? I thought they negotiated with Gretech for the rights to broadcast?
Yeah the thing is that Gretech probably got what they want but ActivisionBlizzard wants to sue OGN and not Gretech (before it was Gretech) so this is a totally new company. I think ActivisionBlizzard did this cuz they didn't get any gain from the contract or something.
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
The companies definitely have representatives in kespa, but kespa is actually a distinct entity iirc
On October 23 2010 09:20 Ares[EffOrt] wrote: .................................................
they never cared before, now suddenly with the release of sc2 they want to bring up these "ip rights" so so sad
I could understand this argument but, then again before SC2, Korean BW leagues really didn't affect Blizzard's revenue. With the release of SC2 sadly now broadcasting of Proleague DIRECTLY affects viewers watching GSL for example. If the people watching Proleague would watch GSL is another argument but, now you basically have one companies products directly competing against each other. While Blizzard could deal with that if they were getting money from BW, since they aren't, they feel their only option is to stop the broadcasting.
I don't blame them and we'll see the fallout.
Except one of the main reasons why sponsors see potential in SC2 is because of Korean BW success?
That's the whole fucking point. The korean scene is what made a very good game, legendary and epic. What the korean pro scene did is basically free advertising... No company would have sponsored a 80kUSD tournament if it didn't have some potential... If SC2 is developing that fast and get that many sponsors, it's mainly thanks to the history of BW.
Blizzard, please show some gratitude instead of sueing people because you want to hijack their broadcasting schedule. The mere fact their are afraid that PL watchers won't switch to GSL is admitting that SC2 is not interesting to watch. They got millions of people playing the game, a very huge cash prize, and still afraid of Proleague haha. I can't even imagine the situation if they weren't so lucky that Boxer and Nada gave them some more free advertisement.
On October 23 2010 09:45 Meriones wrote: Developers automatically owning any esports league/esports player/esports broadcasting rights through IP laws/ELUA is the death of esports.
This is a good point too. If MBC is saying the truth when they say they are break even broadcasting BW, I think it's gonna be impossible for new esport TV channel to emerge if they have to pay broadcasting fees.
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
The companies definitely have representatives in kespa, but kespa is actually a distinct entity iirc
Yes I know that, but my understanding was that there's nothing apart from those companies. I remember reading in a Milkis thread somewhere that their board of directors consisted entirely of those representatives.
I think that BW is already in quite a sorry state. From what I've heard, a lot of B-teamers, coaches, and big name players have already left. One of the teams was disbanded! BW seems to be crawling on its last legs right now. I don't know if it would be nicer to give a mercy killing in from Blizzard's axe of legal action, or if I should watch it keep struggling on until it finally dies.
In my mind, I have no doubt that professional BW is going to end, and end soon. It might even be argued that the age of wildly famous BW progamers and large prize pools are over. I would like to see the turn out for the finals of the OSL/MSL (will there even be one? I've heard talks about a Korean Air OSL 3, but who knows?), but I'm pretty sure BW is going down.
I love BW with all my heart, and it hurts to see the thin crowds at the proleague matches. It looks like its game over, though.
People seems to have forgotten the articles a few weeks before, stating even in KeSPA, there are factions disagreeing with each other. My opinion is whoever controls how KeSPA moves now is causing all these troubles.
KeSPA won't be totally destroyed even if they lose. KeSPA will dissolve, the factions who probably supports Blizzard will break off and form another organisation since the potential/infrastructure of BW is still there. This new organisation gets Blizzard's support, teams gets transfer over, and the leagues can start again.
While I don't think Blizzard is entirely in the right, the move to broadcast even without permission is really disrespectful, not only ignoring Blizzard as the creator of said product, but also disregard Intellectual Property Law and all entities protected by it.
On October 23 2010 09:44 StatiC)Ex( wrote: I'm laughing at the people who think the death of BW, will be the death of E-sports.
Unless Blizzard goes on and sponsors the players in GSL, e-Sport is over. And Koreans progamers will probably lose all their jobs and thousands of people will lose jobs. Korea will probably ban all Blizzard's product this way.
And then Koreans will starve, and World War 3 will happen. On the Korean Peninsula.
The only way I will support Blizzard is that they would sponsor Stork, Jaedong, Flash, bisu and all the other players that we love with the same salary they had. But you know that's kinda of impossible to be able to keep up with the sponsors of a league and its players just by having WoW, they will lose money this way.
The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player. It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
GG Blizzard, time to get butt raped in court. Kespa will stand victorious over your greedy corporate bodies. The court will probably force an agreement from both sides involving a sum of money paid to Blizzard, then Blizzard will stay the fuck away from Korean E-Sports.
I don't get this. Why does Blizzard want to kill sc1??? Just to promote sc2?? In my opinion, sc2 is only attracting so many people due to sc1, if it wasn't for sc1 many people wouldn't even pick up sc2.. If Kespa collapses, how will that help promote the old pros to start picking up and playing sc2 or encourage other people to buy games from these two companies??? Unbelievable, to promote one game, you kill the other.
I hope that the public responds to this somehow (by public, i mean us). We need to take a stand and realize that Blizzard has just killed one whole generation of good gaming, just for a new one, which in my humble opinion, is not a good game at all.
On October 23 2010 10:19 PandaPolice wrote: People seems to have forgotten the articles a few weeks before, stating even in KeSPA, there are factions disagreeing with each other. My opinion is whoever controls how KeSPA moves now is causing all these troubles.
KeSPA won't be totally destroyed even if they lose. KeSPA will dissolve, the factions who probably supports Blizzard will break off and form another organisation since the potential/infrastructure of BW is still there. This new organisation gets Blizzard's support, teams gets transfer over, and the leagues can start again.
While I don't think Blizzard is entirely in the right, the move to broadcast even without permission is really disrespectful, not only ignoring Blizzard as the creator of said product, but also disregard Intellectual Property Law and all entities protected by it.
Whereas there were rumors on a power struggle in KeSPA, it didn't mention anything about any firm supporting Blizzard. So I have to stifle your optimism until confirmation.
Fuck you Blizzard. If they get this preliminary injunction I will rage so fucking hard. Our only hope now is that Korean IP laws are not as fucked up as the ones we have in the U.S.
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote: with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol
Wow, you're an idiot.
Go look up the word "Chaebol."
Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.
"WoW profits" aint shit.
It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.
Companies exist to make money. Microsoft got sued for $200 million by a no name company, and they got rolled over.
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player. It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
On October 23 2010 10:29 Xiphos wrote: Guys come on, why are we so pessimistic about Kespa losing? Its more like 50/50 of who to come out in the end.
We have no idea what the percentages are because I don't think any of us are Korean IP lawyers. I will say that under U.S. IP law MBC and OGN would be in huge trouble.
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote: with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol
Wow, you're an idiot.
Go look up the word "Chaebol."
Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.
"WoW profits" aint shit.
It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.
What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.
And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote: with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol
Wow, you're an idiot.
Go look up the word "Chaebol."
Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.
"WoW profits" aint shit.
It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.
Companies exist to make money. Microsoft got sued for $200 million by a no name company, and they got rolled over.
I'm just a law student here but I think the main argument here is that Blizzard intends the Starcraft scene in progaming is to be continued through Starcraft 2. Blizzard has invested a lot of money and effort for SC 2 (you may like the game or not, there's actually a product ) and wants the SC2 to take off. If the majority follows BW, they'll lose some of the benefits of the progaming scene. The logical solution here would be that Blizzard could make an agreement with the KESPA or whomever that has control over Korean BW scene, and agree on a money to be paid to Blizzard in order to "compensate" for the loss of benefits from the wieving that BW gets. As far as I can get, if KESPA or whomever has the control over the BW progaming / broadcasting refused to do so, and in that case, Blizzard wants to sue them. The reason why Blizzard did not sue through all the long years that BW scene was broadcasted, is that through the Korean scene, they gained attention, popularity, advertisement and benefits of these so and so on. But,since BW has kind of fulfilled its role for Blizzard's interests, all that past advertisement does not matter now I suppose.
Would love if theres someone with alot of knowledge on IP rights would clarify this case though Just tried to understand the reasons of this suit.
On October 23 2010 10:35 deafhobbit wrote: What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.
And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.
You completely missed his point, he's talking about how much e-sports is worth to these companies. If they don't care enough, they're not going to bribe the judges or whatever it is you're saying.
I don't know enough to say which side is right here, but I kind of think the nature of intellectual property is more important than 'omg we did so much for you!!!1' or 'omg activision greedy!!!' that people like to throw out so much. There's never really anything new in these threads, just a bunch of people saying the same things they said before.
I haven’t searched for news articles written in English. If there are any well translated article, I would welcome it.
There are some facts that were revealed in news.
Blizzard tried to negotiate an agreement with KeSPa. (Oh, BTW, KeSPA is Korean eSports Association.) They couldn’t reach a deal. Blizzard then struck a deal with Gretech. Gretech makes Gom TV, Gom Player and other multimedia platforms. Gom TV is an internet TV under the Korean Copyright Act, I believe. KeSPA is blaming Blizzard for claiming intellectual property rights on Starcraft Original, Starcraft II and other games. Legal aspects of this incident seems clear but unconvincing. Unconvincing because of a Seoul High Court decision in 2007 on the copyrightability of a game character. (will explain more below)
Blizzard has rights in the computer program underneath Starcraft II as a computer program work. Blizzard also has rights in the artworks, music and scripts (displayed on the screed or not) of Starcraft II. However, there is a major loophole created by the Seoul High Court decision in 2007. Let me quote and translate relevant paragraph. On whether a character is copyrightable independently from the whole game.
On the issue of whether a character that appear in the “Live Baseball” game is copyrightable independently from the game, Works of art like “Live Baseball” are composed of many elements: characters, plot, scenario, various options, tools, etc. The allegedly copyrightable character is merely an element of the work of art. The character is not considered an independently copyrightable work of art unless the character acquires an independent copyrightability through merchandising of the character.
In addition, Article 2(1) of the Copyright Act defines “work of art” as “creation that expresses human thought or emotion.” The creation means expression itself. A character is an image that are separate from the expression and that are formed in the minds of people. That is, a character is an abstract concept of a personality that are formed from concrete expressions that appear in each scenes, and it is not an expression. Therefore, a character itself is not a creative expression of a thought or emotion.
In conclusion, protecting the game play of “Live Baseball” as visual work of art is sufficient. A character, independently from the game play, is insufficient to be protected as copyrightable work of art. (Seoul High Court, 2007.8.22., Seon Go. 2006 Na 72392 Pan Gyul)
This case creates a lot of confusion in understanding what to license in when one wants to hold a game competition.
According to the case, Blizzard has copyright in the game play screen of Starcraft II but does not in the game units (marine, medic, zergling, dragoon, or you name it).
Anyhow, it can be reasoned that the audio visual screen of the game play is a derivative work of the Starcraft II. That means, game players need to get a permission from Blizzard. Do they need a permission for game play at home? No. Blizzard Starcraft II license agreement covers game play at home.
Suppose game players has permission from Blizzard, what should broadcasting companies do? Broadcasting companies should get a permission from the game players for broadcasting their plays.
These are the legal landscape of the Starcraft II game convnetion.
What does KeSPA have to do with the above picture?
KeSPA is an association of the game teams. Game teams have contracts with game players. Game players’ plays are work for hire. So, the liability belongs to game teams.
Looks complicated, but it’s not so.
Simply speaking, Blizzard has every right to flunk the deal with KeSPA and give exclusive rights to Gretech. If KeSPA goes on with what it has been doing and ignores the Blizzard-Gretech deal, they will meet in court and will probably pay their sorry money.
Interesting thing is that Blizzard is said to have requested too much from KeSPA, terms that it can’t accept.
I can’t list all the leak-outs of the deal here because I haven’t seen them myself.
I thought from the beginning that this is a business deal and has not much to shed further light on the copyright system or IPR laws in Korea.
KeSPA’s argument that it contributed to the success of Starcraft by making the game competition industry as it stands now is a simple BS.
I’d like to draw your attention to the fact that Gretech is an internet TV company and technically it can broadcast to the North America and Europe or anywhere else. I couldn’t get a hold of the license agreement between Blizzard and Gretech, but I’m sure the geographic scope of the license is limited to Korea. But the license agreement can be amended any time. If Blizzard considers that internet TVs are the right platform for game broadcasting, it might consider broadening the license to worldwide and start shooting game plays all around the world.
TL;DR, lots of legal mumbo jumbo that I will not pretend to interpret, but one small bit sums it up pretty well:
"Simply speaking, Blizzard has every right to flunk the deal with KeSPA and give exclusive rights to Gretech. If KeSPA goes on with what it has been doing and ignores the Blizzard-Gretech deal, they will meet in court and will probably pay their sorry money."
On October 23 2010 09:42 [White]NaDa wrote: i dont see blizzard coming ahead in any way in court, what they want has gone beyond common sense from long ago, this is just the last desperation move from blizzard, hopefully it will fail
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote: with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol
Wow, you're an idiot.
Go look up the word "Chaebol."
Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.
"WoW profits" aint shit.
It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.
What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.
And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.
You don't get my point. Revenue is not a good indicator of who's going to win the legal matter, it's how much money they're willing to pump into it.
Starcraft might be worth 10 million dollars in marketing, they're not going to spend $50 million to protect it.
"Blizzard has rights in the computer program underneath Starcraft II as a computer program work. Blizzard also has rights in the artworks, music and scripts (displayed on the screed or not) of Starcraft II."
Ok that's enough for me if true. This shows that Korean IP law is similar to U.S. law in the respect the Blizzard has a copyright in the actual gameplay, and we are probably fucked. The "loophole" they mentioned doesn't save MBC or OGN at all as they are broadcasting gameplay.
We do still have one hope. The Korean court may decide that an injunction at this point will do so much harm to the defendant and be so against the public interest, that the remedy they award to Blizzard may just be damages. This may mean that MBC and OGN will be forced to pay royalties, but may still be able to continue broadcasting. Of course this is assuming more similarity between Korean and U.S. law.
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player. It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
Um, what? Seriously?
In my mind the IP rights work like this.
Does the inventor of the bicycle own all the rights to everything ever done on a bicycle? Does the inventor of the paintbrush own the rights to every painting ever done by anyone? Does the inventor of ink own the rights to just about all of the written work ever?
No, to every single one of those. So why would the creator of a game own the rights to every single match of that game that was played? That isn't how it works with other games like baseball, basketball, hockey, etc.
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player. It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
Um, what? Seriously?
In my mind the IP rights work like this.
Does the inventor of the bicycle own all the rights to everything ever done on a bicycle? Does the inventor of the paintbrush own the rights to every painting ever done by anyone? Does the inventor of ink own the rights to just about all of the written work ever?
No, to every single one of those. So why would the creator of a game own the rights to every single match of that game that was played? That isn't how it works with other games like baseball, basketball, hockey, etc.
Yeah, that is a reasonable (and imo correct) view of what a video game is and what gameplay is. However, that is not U.S. (and apparently Korean) law. If you read Stern Electronics, the judge argues that all possible gameplay is already contained within the code of the game, which Blizzard created. This logic allows the judge to see gameplay as "fixed", which is a necessary element of copyright. So in the U.S. the developer has a copyright in the gameplay. IMO this is bullshit and the gameplay is not fixed, but created by the player. But that is not what judges who've never played games think so we are fucked.
This will get ugly... there will be blood. I think the Korean government might take it a bit personal because of how rude Blizz representative was to a government official.
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote: with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol
Wow, you're an idiot.
Go look up the word "Chaebol."
Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.
"WoW profits" aint shit.
It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.
What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.
And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.
You don't get my point. Revenue is not a good indicator of who's going to win the legal matter, it's how much money they're willing to pump into it.
Starcraft might be worth 10 million dollars in marketing, they're not going to spend $50 million to protect it.
And you're still not getting mine.
1) Money isn't the whole story, Chaebol's have the ability to directly influence the government without it.
2) Furthermore, the size of the Chaebols give them numerous advantages over Blizzard.
a) They'll have access to better lawyers. b) They'll be able to wage a better PR campaign. c) Since it's a many vs one scenario, they likely will collectively spend more. PL teams are dirt cheap advertising, and sponsoring them helps the Chaebol's PR a lot as well. Collectively, they likely value BW more than AB values Sc2. d) Finally, there's more to this than value calculations. Chaebol are mostly run by their founding families, and emotion can play a role in influencing their decisions. If you don't think a company like SK Group or Samsung gets pissed when a pipsqueak like AB tries to sue them, and would take a great pleasure in crushing them in court, you clearly think human beings are more like calculators than i do.
On October 23 2010 10:41 Bleak wrote: I'm just a law student here but I think the main argument here is that Blizzard intends the Starcraft scene in progaming is to be continued through Starcraft 2. Blizzard has invested a lot of money and effort for SC 2 (you may like the game or not, there's actually a product ) and wants the SC2 to take off. If the majority follows BW, they'll lose some of the benefits of the progaming scene. The logical solution here would be that Blizzard could make an agreement with the KESPA or whomever that has control over Korean BW scene, and agree on a money to be paid to Blizzard in order to "compensate" for the loss of benefits from the wieving that BW gets. As far as I can get, if KESPA or whomever has the control over the BW progaming / broadcasting refused to do so, and in that case, Blizzard wants to sue them. The reason why Blizzard did not sue through all the long years that BW scene was broadcasted, is that through the Korean scene, they gained attention, popularity, advertisement and benefits of these so and so on. But,since BW has kind of fulfilled its role for Blizzard's interests, all that past advertisement does not matter now I suppose.
Would love if theres someone with alot of knowledge on IP rights would clarify this case though Just tried to understand the reasons of this suit.
Ya I agree that is really funny, "compensation" lol. Blizzard: Free BW advertising? Cool we'll just step aside. *SC2 release* Blizzard: Ok you gotta give me control of your scene now, because I got a new game I can milk money and my old game you've been playing and advertising for me for free doesn't mean anything anymore.
Blizzard: At least give us some money "compensation" because BW is hurting SC2 sales, because that is how it works.
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote: with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol
Wow, you're an idiot.
Go look up the word "Chaebol."
Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.
"WoW profits" aint shit.
It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.
What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.
And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.
You don't get my point. Revenue is not a good indicator of who's going to win the legal matter, it's how much money they're willing to pump into it.
Starcraft might be worth 10 million dollars in marketing, they're not going to spend $50 million to protect it.
And you're still not getting mine.
1) Money isn't the whole story, Chaebol's have the ability to directly influence the government without it.
2) Furthermore, the size of the Chaebols give them numerous advantages over Blizzard.
a) They'll have access to better lawyers. b) They'll be able to wage a better PR campaign. c) Since it's a many vs one scenario, they likely will collectively spend more. PL teams are dirt cheap advertising, and sponsoring them helps the Chaebol's PR a lot as well. Collectively, they likely value BW more than AB values Sc2. d) Finally, there's more to this than value calculations. Chaebol are mostly run by their founding families, and emotion can play a role in influencing their decisions. If you don't think a company like SK Group or Samsung gets pissed when a pipsqueak like AB tries to sue them, and would take a great pleasure in crushing them in court, you clearly think human beings are more like calculators than i do.
Don't forget that KT and STX is in that who Chaebols group too! So they will probably something about it as well.
Can people stop citing things invented before patent and copyright law as examples of things without patents or copyrights? Soccer, Paintbrushes, Ink, all invented before any form of copyright law was created. I'd actually be surprised if the Penny Farthing (the first ever commercial bicycle) wasn't copyrighted in some form by the original inventor.
That's not even getting started on the absurdness of those analogies but whatever it's like stopping a flood with a sheet of paper.
I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Starcraft isn't a tool for creating entertainment, it is the entertainment in and of itself. I mean, you can say "Photoshop doesn't get paid for every photoshopped ad" but you can look at any movie which is based on a game. Like Doom, for example. That movie rested on the shoulders of the franchise and made money. And yes, they had to license the Doom name and elements and pay royalties. Or smaller examples, like Adam Sandler playing Shadow of the Collosus in Reign Over Me as a crucial plot device. They had to pay for that too. Or the Zelda music in Scott Pilgrim.
The Starcraft music plays during pro games. They use the Starcraft name and characters to promote the games. The channel makes money through advertising. I don't know... I don't think Blizzard is completely on the wrong page here. But, like I said, it's very complicated.
On October 23 2010 09:41 wishbones wrote: with 2 weeks worth of profit from wow, they will win the trial. lol
Wow, you're an idiot.
Go look up the word "Chaebol."
Then, go look up how many of them sponsor Proleague teams.
"WoW profits" aint shit.
It doesn't matter about revenue, it comes down to money. Those companies aren't going to use $1billion dollars to protect themselves from a lawsuit over E-sports, it comes down to how much E-sports is worth to to them in terms of marketing value.
What makes you think they need to? One of the defining characteristics of Chaebol is their ability to directly influence the government. South Korea isn't as corrupt as it was before the Asian Financial Crisis, but it's no model of pure governance.
And on the money front, Activision Blizzard is big, but it's utterly dwarfed by the size of the Chaebols. Wikipedia lists Activison Blizzard's total revenue for 2009 as 4.8 billion, compared to the SK group which made 78.6 billion in 2009, and Samsung group which made 173.4 billion in 2008. AB is completely out of their league.
You don't get my point. Revenue is not a good indicator of who's going to win the legal matter, it's how much money they're willing to pump into it.
Starcraft might be worth 10 million dollars in marketing, they're not going to spend $50 million to protect it.
And you're still not getting mine.
1) Money isn't the whole story, Chaebol's have the ability to directly influence the government without it.
2) Furthermore, the size of the Chaebols give them numerous advantages over Blizzard.
a) They'll have access to better lawyers. b) They'll be able to wage a better PR campaign. c) Since it's a many vs one scenario, they likely will collectively spend more. PL teams are dirt cheap advertising, and sponsoring them helps the Chaebol's PR a lot as well. Collectively, they likely value BW more than AB values Sc2. d) Finally, there's more to this than value calculations. Chaebol are mostly run by their founding families, and emotion can play a role in influencing their decisions. If you don't think a company like SK Group or Samsung gets pissed when a pipsqueak like AB tries to sue them, and would take a great pleasure in crushing them in court, you clearly think human beings are more like calculators than i do.
Don't forget that KT and STX is in that who Chaebols group too! So they will probably something about it as well.
And CJ. Woongjin, and Hite, while not Chaebol, are pretty big too. MBC and OGN's lives depend on BW, so they will be willing to spend a lot. Oh, and the last pro team is sponsored by THE FUCKING KOREAN GOVERNMENT, and Kespa is part of the Dept. of Culture.
On October 23 2010 11:04 leakingpear wrote: Can people stop citing things invented before patent and copyright law as examples of things without patents or copyrights? Soccer, Paintbrushes, Ink, all invented before any form of copyright law was created. I'd actually be surprised if the Penny Farthing (the first ever commercial bicycle) wasn't copyrighted in some form by the original inventor.
That's not even getting started on the absurdness of those analogies but whatever it's like stopping a flood with a sheet of paper.
No, his analogies are actually not bad. You are mixing up copyright and patent law. There are specific requirement you must meet in order to copyright something. Unfortunately, judges have ruled that gameplay meets the "fixation" requirement, which is a mistake imo.
On October 23 2010 11:04 NukeTheStars wrote: I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Starcraft isn't a tool for creating entertainment, it is the entertainment in and of itself. I mean, you can say "Photoshop doesn't get paid for every photoshopped ad" but you can look at any movie which is based on a game. Like Doom, for example. That movie rested on the shoulders of the franchise and made money. And yes, they had to license the Doom name and elements and pay royalties. Or smaller examples, like Adam Sandler playing Shadow of the Collosus in Reign Over Me as a crucial plot device. They had to pay for that too. Or the Zelda music in Scott Pilgrim.
The Starcraft music plays during pro games. They use the Starcraft name and characters to promote the games. The channel makes money through advertising. I don't know... I don't think Blizzard is completely on the wrong page here. But, like I said, it's very complicated.
But but...Proleague! And...and Activision Blizzard!
In all seriousness, just because Blizzard ignored the violation of their IP rights for a time does make them any less deserving of compensation for the usage of their property. Blizzard is a business and should be expected to operate as such.
On October 23 2010 11:04 NukeTheStars wrote: I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Starcraft isn't a tool for creating entertainment, it is the entertainment in and of itself. I mean, you can say "Photoshop doesn't get paid for every photoshopped ad" but you can look at any movie which is based on a game. Like Doom, for example. That movie rested on the shoulders of the franchise and made money. And yes, they had to license the Doom name and elements and pay royalties. Or smaller examples, like Adam Sandler playing Shadow of the Collosus in Reign Over Me as a crucial plot device. They had to pay for that too. Or the Zelda music in Scott Pilgrim.
The Starcraft music plays during pro games. They use the Starcraft name and characters to promote the games. The channel makes money through advertising. I don't know... I don't think Blizzard is completely on the wrong page here. But, like I said, it's very complicated.
But but...Proleague! And...and Activision Blizzard!
In all seriousness, just because Blizzard ignored the violation of their IP rights for a time does make them any less deserving of compensation for the usage of their property. Blizzard is a business and should be expected to operate as such.
They have been offered payment, except Blizzard wants no money, they just want BW pro scene to go away for SC2. Have you seen the outrageous demands they made?
A sum of money every year should be the only thing a game developer gets, aside from FREE advertisement all year long. Blizzard needs to learn how to appreciate, instead of destroying their own PR trying to milk more off SC2.
On October 23 2010 11:04 NukeTheStars wrote: I think it's a bit more complicated than that. Starcraft isn't a tool for creating entertainment, it is the entertainment in and of itself. I mean, you can say "Photoshop doesn't get paid for every photoshopped ad" but you can look at any movie which is based on a game. Like Doom, for example. That movie rested on the shoulders of the franchise and made money. And yes, they had to license the Doom name and elements and pay royalties. Or smaller examples, like Adam Sandler playing Shadow of the Collosus in Reign Over Me as a crucial plot device. They had to pay for that too. Or the Zelda music in Scott Pilgrim.
The Starcraft music plays during pro games. They use the Starcraft name and characters to promote the games. The channel makes money through advertising. I don't know... I don't think Blizzard is completely on the wrong page here. But, like I said, it's very complicated.
But but...Proleague! And...and Activision Blizzard!
In all seriousness, just because Blizzard ignored the violation of their IP rights for a time does make them any less deserving of compensation for the usage of their property. Blizzard is a business and should be expected to operate as such.
Laches: knowledge of use by another, unconscionable delay in bringing an action, consequent harm to defendant.
Estoppel: sometimes a concomitant to laches, but characterized by an affirmative acquiescence or encouragement in the conflicting use by the other.
These are U.S. common law defenses though, and I have no idea if they apply in Korea. Maybe MBC/OGN will have an argument here but who knows.
Yeah, not surprised at all, and i wont be if MBC loses. It's sad but yeah, i can understand Blizzard here. Loving Broodwar and i would never want to see it go away.
So lets hope for the best, that Broodwar will still go on after this.
On October 23 2010 11:04 leakingpear wrote: Can people stop citing things invented before patent and copyright law as examples of things without patents or copyrights? Soccer, Paintbrushes, Ink, all invented before any form of copyright law was created. I'd actually be surprised if the Penny Farthing (the first ever commercial bicycle) wasn't copyrighted in some form by the original inventor.
That's not even getting started on the absurdness of those analogies but whatever it's like stopping a flood with a sheet of paper.
No, his analogies are actually not bad. You are mixing up copyright and patent law. There are specific requirement you must meet in order to copyright something. Unfortunately, judges have ruled that gameplay meets the "fixation" requirement, which is a mistake imo.
But my point was that the analogies were irrelevant because of the activities/objects in question were invented prior to the enactment of the law as to which you refer. I fail to see how your point (as correct as it is) impacts that in any way, shape or form.
On October 23 2010 11:16 Grettin wrote: Yeah, not surprised at all, and i wont be if MBC loses. It's sad but yeah, i can understand Blizzard here. Loving Broodwar and i would never want to see it go away.
So lets hope for the best, that Broodwar will still go on after this.
Lets be realistic here, if Blizz wins, Broodwar pro scene will be no more.
On October 23 2010 11:16 Grettin wrote: Yeah, not surprised at all, and i wont be if MBC loses. It's sad but yeah, i can understand Blizzard here. Loving Broodwar and i would never want to see it go away.
So lets hope for the best, that Broodwar will still go on after this.
Lets be realistic here, if Blizz wins, Broodwar pro scene will be no more.
On October 23 2010 11:16 Grettin wrote: Yeah, not surprised at all, and i wont be if MBC loses. It's sad but yeah, i can understand Blizzard here. Loving Broodwar and i would never want to see it go away.
So lets hope for the best, that Broodwar will still go on after this.
Lets be realistic here, if Blizz wins, Broodwar pro scene will be no more.
As I said before, it all depends on the damages the Korean court will award to Blizzard. If it's an injunction then yeah, no more broadcasts period. If it's some kind of monetary award, with no injunction, plus a compulsory license then maybe MBC/OGN will have enough money left after paying off Blizzard (mafia) to still run proleague. But yeah probably not.
Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Except for the part noone actually pays for the movie showing other than the people who show the movie to you aka. KeSPA and the TV-channels. That's called sponsoring.
Why are they suing the broadcasting companies? I couldn't care less if KeSPA got sue'd and disappeared but suing OGN and MBC (the greatest contributor of esports) is not the right direction. Without these guys, esports would not have become what it is today in SK.
If Blizzard shuts down MBC and/or OGN, in my opinion, Koreans will simply stop watching esports because nobody comes close when it comes to production value of esports they create.
Gomtv is terrible compared to OGN/MBC in almost every way, including casters.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
See that's the problem though. It's all in how you characterize video games What do you think a video game is more like, an interactive movie or something like photoshop? Most judges think games are more like movies where the "script" and all possible scenes are contained in the code. I disagree and would characterize a video game as something more like an etch-a-sketch or photoshop, where the software gives you the tools to create something, but what you actually create wasn't fixed in the code itself. Obviously background music and cutscenes are fixed in the code and are more like movies, but I think the software only gives you the tools to create the gameplay, and the gameplay itself wasn't contained in the code (just the ability to play a certain way).
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
See that's the problem though. It's all in how you characterize video games What do you think a video game is more like, an interactive movie or something like photoshop? Most judges think games are more like movies where the "script" and all possible scenes are contained in the code. I disagree and would characterize a video game as something more like an etch-a-sketch or photoshop, where the software gives you the tools to create something, but what you actually create wasn't fixed in the code itself. Obviously background music and cutscenes are fixed in the code and are more like movies, but I think the software only gives you the tools to create the gameplay, and the gameplay itself wasn't contained in the code (just the ability to play a certain way).
Agreed with that. Original SC:BW didn't have the AI to do what the players are able to do nowadays so the creativity and work of the strategies are all works of the players instead of the Dev team.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
Pretty sure that without Blizzard, they would be other games for Kespa to base on.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Horrible analogies makes me wanna rip my eyes out...
Not before ripping the eyes of Blizzard fanboys out.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
Sooo... your basically against a system where players have a salary and thus some sort of financial security and would rather progaming return to the dark ages where if you happened to mess up in a tourney and didn't get enough prize-money, you have to live off cup ramen for the next month and half and sleep in a hostel.
This has been discussed to death. Unless you're a professional IP lawyer, you don't really have anything to contribute. Especially if you're just going to make shit analogies
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
.
Sooo... your basically against a system where players have a salary and thus some sort of financial security and would rather progaming return to the dark ages where if you happened to mess up in a tourney and didn't get enough prize-money, you have to live off cup ramen for the next month and half and sleep in a hostel.
And this is why the blizzard/gretech model of "progaming" is doomed to fail. No salaries = no income security, and will mean that players can devote less time to practicing and improving their game than in the BW scene. The best they can hope for is individual sponsorship, but that will only be given to the best of the best, meaning that very few Sc2 "pros" will actually play their game professionally
BTW unless you're a Korean IP lawyer, stop talking about who is legally right. You have no idea. You've never studied Korean IP law. And even if Blizzard does end up winning, does that mean the decision was legally right? Judges make mistakes all the time and get reversed all the time. Furthermore, many decisions are extremely close and is about which party makes the best argument, not about who's right or wrong.
Sorry for the mini-rant but it just pisses me off when people who've never studied the law talk about it like they understand.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
On October 23 2010 12:11 Slow Motion wrote: BTW unless you're a Korean IP lawyer, stop talking about who is legally right. You have no idea. You've never studied Korean IP law. And even if Blizzard does end up winning, does that mean the decision was legally right? Judges make mistakes all the time and get reversed all the time. Furthermore, many decisions are extremely close and is about which party makes the best argument, not about who's right or wrong.
Sorry for the mini-rant but it just pisses me off when people who've never studied the law talk about it like they understand.
I reiterate, it's Blizzards IP, they can do whatever they want with it. Unless Korea want's to start an international dispute with an American company, which they aren't in a position to do, they have to listen to the creators of the game.
Again, many of you are arguing passion over legality.
And when I say Kespa, I mean the companies blizzard is suing, MBC and OGN
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
Of course Kespa makes money, guy. The individual companies that make up Kespa do so because of the advertising benefit they receive, which they perceive to give them a monetary gain. The fact they collectivized and formed a non-profit separate from their own companies is just a formality. Are you going to make us say, "the companies that make up Kespa" or will you let us graciously use Kespa to make conversation easier?
A question. Why would Blizzard take this into a Korean court, especially considering how much influence the KeSPA companies have over the Korean government?
On October 23 2010 12:11 Slow Motion wrote: BTW unless you're a Korean IP lawyer, stop talking about who is legally right. You have no idea. You've never studied Korean IP law. And even if Blizzard does end up winning, does that mean the decision was legally right? Judges make mistakes all the time and get reversed all the time. Furthermore, many decisions are extremely close and is about which party makes the best argument, not about who's right or wrong.
Sorry for the mini-rant but it just pisses me off when people who've never studied the law talk about it like they understand.
I reiterate, it's Blizzards IP, they can do whatever they want with it. Unless Korea want's to start an international dispute with an American company, which they aren't in a position to do, they have to listen to the creators of the game.
Again, many of you are arguing passion over legality.
And when I say Kespa, I mean the companies blizzard is suing, MBC and OGN
and you know that blizzard is in the legal right how? Please show me how you found that out, i'd like to know.... and by the way, instead of double posting... there IS an edit button.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
Of course Kespa makes money, guy. The individual companies that make up Kespa do so because of the advertising benefit they receive, which they perceive to give them a monetary gain. The fact they collectivized and formed a non-profit separate from their own companies is just a formality. Are you going to make us say, "the companies that make up Kespa" or will you let us graciously use Kespa to make conversation easier?
The companies that make up Kespa != Kespa. Saying that the fact that they make money from advertising through BW means that Kespa itself does is idiotic. It's tantamount to saying that if a company runs an add on NPR and makes a profit from it that NPR is a for profit organization.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
Such disappointing news. Doesn't matter if Blizzard wins or loses, this seems like it'll hurt both scenes badly. I can't see how SC2 working out with sponsors/MBC/OGN after these lawsuits. I hope I am wrong, but the future seems poor for SC in general, no matter if you are a BW fan or SC2 fan.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
Of course Kespa makes money, guy. The individual companies that make up Kespa do so because of the advertising benefit they receive, which they perceive to give them a monetary gain. The fact they collectivized and formed a non-profit separate from their own companies is just a formality. Are you going to make us say, "the companies that make up Kespa" or will you let us graciously use Kespa to make conversation easier?
The companies that make up Kespa != Kespa. Saying that the fact that they make money from advertising through BW means that Kespa itself does is idiotic. It's tantamount to saying that if a company runs an add on NPR and makes a profit from it that NPR is a for profit organization.
You're right, Blizzard got involved in this whole saga a couple years ago when Kespa, out of the blue, claimed to own the rights to broadcast SC in Korea (by what logic, who knows).They were demanding money for the rights to broadcast proleague games after 7 years of "allowing" the 2 game channels to broadcast the games for free.
On October 23 2010 12:11 Slow Motion wrote: BTW unless you're a Korean IP lawyer, stop talking about who is legally right. You have no idea. You've never studied Korean IP law. And even if Blizzard does end up winning, does that mean the decision was legally right? Judges make mistakes all the time and get reversed all the time. Furthermore, many decisions are extremely close and is about which party makes the best argument, not about who's right or wrong.
Sorry for the mini-rant but it just pisses me off when people who've never studied the law talk about it like they understand.
I reiterate, it's Blizzards IP, they can do whatever they want with it. Unless Korea want's to start an international dispute with an American company, which they aren't in a position to do, they have to listen to the creators of the game.
Again, many of you are arguing passion over legality.
And when I say Kespa, I mean the companies blizzard is suing, MBC and OGN
Wow you are so ignorant of your own ignorance. It blows my mind how someone who's never studied the law can say such clearly wrong things so confidently.
Edit: alright I'm done arguing in this thread cause I'll just starting saying more assholish and elitist things as I get more pissed off. Sorry If I'm being a dick.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
Blizzard is seeing it from the commercial side of it. Teams have sponsors that pay for them to play in these tournaments, so their is money being made. It is not the complete 'No money involved' situation you're trying to argue.
That's what this is all about:Both sides fighting for money. Kespa feels like they own Starcraft because they made it into what it is, even though without Blizzard they wouldn't exist.
So now we've got two sides:The passionate side, the ones who argue for Kespa just because they made Starcraft grow. And the legal side, which Blizzard deserves its due desserts.
You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
Of course Kespa makes money, guy. The individual companies that make up Kespa do so because of the advertising benefit they receive, which they perceive to give them a monetary gain. The fact they collectivized and formed a non-profit separate from their own companies is just a formality. Are you going to make us say, "the companies that make up Kespa" or will you let us graciously use Kespa to make conversation easier?
The companies that make up Kespa != Kespa. Saying that the fact that they make money from advertising through BW means that Kespa itself does is idiotic. It's tantamount to saying that if a company runs an add on NPR and makes a profit from it that NPR is a for profit organization.
If NPR was made up of and governed by the advertisers as Kespa is, for all intents and purposes, yes it would be for-profit
On October 23 2010 12:11 Slow Motion wrote: BTW unless you're a Korean IP lawyer, stop talking about who is legally right. You have no idea. You've never studied Korean IP law. And even if Blizzard does end up winning, does that mean the decision was legally right? Judges make mistakes all the time and get reversed all the time. Furthermore, many decisions are extremely close and is about which party makes the best argument, not about who's right or wrong.
Sorry for the mini-rant but it just pisses me off when people who've never studied the law talk about it like they understand.
I reiterate, it's Blizzards IP, they can do whatever they want with it. Unless Korea want's to start an international dispute with an American company, which they aren't in a position to do, they have to listen to the creators of the game.
Again, many of you are arguing passion over legality.
And when I say Kespa, I mean the companies blizzard is suing, MBC and OGN
Wow you are so ignorant of your own ignorance. It blows my mind how someone who's never studied the law can say such clearly wrong things so confidently.
<Insert ambiguous reply here that somehow proves you wrong without actually proving it>
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
God damn, did you make your account one month prior just to post slander in this thread?
Good luck applying American IP in Korean court. At least most of the internet lawyers supporting Blizzard has more brains than you.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
Some contracts do last forever. You don't know the terms of the contract MBC and OGN signed with Hanbitsoft, and at the point where they're citing it as justification for their position it seems plausible to assume that it is currently in effect. Also, Kespa offered to pay GOM, but they said they weren't offering enough.
Also, no, it falls under Korean IP law. A US court does not have jurisdiction over MBC, OGN, or Kespa, the only courts that do are in Korea.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
except for the part where them getting sued is Korean Law, cuz they are you know... in Korea. American Law only has effect there when they decide to let it.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
except for the part where them getting sued is Korean Law, cuz they are you know... in Korea. American Law only has effect there when they decide to let it.
Paragraph 5 of the Korean IP law states that the derivative work(People playing Starcraft, in this case) is protected by law, but it is limited by the original IP itself.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
except for the part where them getting sued is Korean Law, cuz they are you know... in Korea. American Law only has effect there when they decide to let it.
Paragraph 5 of the Korean IP law states that the derivative work(People playing Starcraft, in this case) is protected by law, but it is limited by the original IP itself.
lol. oh god . . . must . . . resist . . . dickish . . . comment
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
except for the part where them getting sued is Korean Law, cuz they are you know... in Korea. American Law only has effect there when they decide to let it.
Paragraph 5 of the Korean IP law states that the derivative work(People playing Starcraft, in this case) is protected by law, but it is limited by the original IP itself.
That doesn't mean that American law applies in Korea...
Also, if you want to source law, quote and cite it.
Also, the authoritative text of that law is the Korean one, not whatever translation you are using. Therefore, it's difficult to draw any conclusions from it.
Also, i highly doubt you are qualified to practice law in Korea, meaning that your opinion on this isn't worth shit.
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
except for the part where them getting sued is Korean Law, cuz they are you know... in Korea. American Law only has effect there when they decide to let it.
Paragraph 5 of the Korean IP law states that the derivative work(People playing Starcraft, in this case) is protected by law, but it is limited by the original IP itself.
That doesn't mean that American law applies in Korea...
Also, if you want to source law, quote and cite it.
Also, the authoritative text of that law is the Korean one, not whatever translation you are using. Therefore, it's difficult to draw any conclusions from it.
Also, i highly doubt you are qualified to practice law in Korea, meaning that your opinion on this isn't worth shit.
In retrospect, it is vain for anyone to try to argue for anything in this topic. Arguing for or against Kespa is foolish, according to your logic.
All Kespa has against Blizzard is the fact that their progamers are forbidden from playing Starcraft 2.
Blizzard has nothing to lose by suing MBC and OGN.
So wait... Blizzard gave the rights to Gretech for SC in Korea, Gretech last week decided to play nice and let PL continue and now Blizzard is sidestepping Gretech altogether and just directly suing? Am I getting this right?
On October 23 2010 12:04 deafhobbit wrote: You're putting words in my mouth - i never said no one made money from BW, only that kespa didn't. Tournaments are run by MBC and OGN, Kespa is only an administrative agent.
Also, calling Blizzard the "legal side" is bullshit, because it assumes the law is clear cut. Furthermore, it ignores the fact that MBC and OGN purchased the rights to broadcast BW from Blizzards former Korean partner, Hanbitsoft.
On October 23 2010 12:14 ShadeR wrote: Does Fifa pay royalties to the man who created the soccer ball? Over and over again your stupid analogies fall on their ass.
The irony, you just made a stupid analogy.
Key word former.
The fact that Blizzard let Kespa build an industry based around Starcraft, for 8 years without saying anything is pretty generous.
You're all forgetting that Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play a sport. Blizzard has had the right to not have them pay for royalties to use their product, and they have the right to change their mind and ask Kespa to start paying Royalties.
Kespa doesn't have a leg to stand on. It's Blizzards game, Blizzards IP, and they have a right to do anything they want with it.
Yeah former, and contracts made with them were legally binding. Property rights don't give you the right to go back on contracts you've already made, or your agent made for you, even if you've changed your mind on it.
Finally, you're assuming this is a purely legal matter, which it isn't. None of us are qualified to talk about the vagaries of Korean IP law (as many people have pointed out), but what is legal and what isn't can rarely be stated objectively. Politics are deeply involved in legal processes, especially in countries like South Korea where large companies have direct ties to the government, and as it turns out a lot of those companies sponsor Proleague teams.
Contracts don't last forever. Blizzard has made it clear that they tried making a contract through Kespa, but Kespa pretty much that Blizzard should be paying them.
And again, it deals with American IP law, not Korean. Starcraft falls under American IP law, as it was made in America and not Korea.
except for the part where them getting sued is Korean Law, cuz they are you know... in Korea. American Law only has effect there when they decide to let it.
Paragraph 5 of the Korean IP law states that the derivative work(People playing Starcraft, in this case) is protected by law, but it is limited by the original IP itself.
That doesn't mean that American law applies in Korea...
Also, if you want to source law, quote and cite it.
Also, the authoritative text of that law is the Korean one, not whatever translation you are using. Therefore, it's difficult to draw any conclusions from it.
Also, i highly doubt you are qualified to practice law in Korea, meaning that your opinion on this isn't worth shit.
In retrospect, it is vain for anyone to try to argue for anything in this topic. Arguing for or against Kespa is foolish, according to your logic.
All Kespa has against Blizzard is the fact that their progamers are forbidden from playing Starcraft 2.
Blizzard has nothing to lose by suing MBC and OGN.
On October 23 2010 09:33 Meriones wrote: Now if Boxer and Nada have any honor and feel any loyalty to the industry they helped build up, they will boycott GSL from now on.
lolwut? that's called manipulating others for your own cause.
these individuals contributed to bw scene more than any pro player , especially boxer. After all he has done for bw scene and e-sports. he doesn't NEED to do something to show their loyalty. He could care less or not even think about it. The things he had done for the game until now is more than enough.
I wonder if you gonna bash the emperor if they don't boycott gsl.
however i honestly believe that the 2 cannot coexist at a high level. they can coexist to a point, which i'm sure people would be happy with, but if you want big gsl's and a proleague going on with equal hype one will die out eventually. there are virtually no b-teamers, why? because they want to go where the money is.
you see bw is already almost dead in a sense, there are no second generation players, no b teamers and no nerds with dreams of becoming kings of the sc world.
however if bw were to live on(which is quite impossible) sc2 would die. i personally wouldn't mind either becoming the next big thing since i think sc2 has a lot of potential and bw is amazing.
foreigners don't count because honestly korea is the only stable esport country in the world
really blizz, if someone does something cool and awesome with your property and you allow it for years, than all of a sudden go, hey we wish we were the ones to do that, sue!!!!!!!! it makes you look so bad, like why don't let an ICCUP server go up on SC2 so much better than your maps and system, why not let the community run your game, it ends with a better product. take a page out of valves book, I really think blizz should drop activision sure they make a few more bucks but at a much greater overall cost for the company, itsname, many people buy blizzards games becuase its blizzard, they go oh they're a great company ill check this game out, it's like disney was, you knew it would be aquality movie (aladdin, lion king, little mermaid.......) and now disney has a shit reputation of teen popstars with no actual talent, i really hope activision does'nt screw blizz over like im predicting, but it seems its heading that way......... :/
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
I answered this before. The companies that make up Kespa have profited from advertising in BW, but Kespa itself hasn't.
Blizzard is destroying everything here. Let's be realistic:
If Blizzard gets on the negative side of OGN/MBC by suing them, what is stopping a public backlash against that in Korea? I would understand Korean netizens' criticism of Kespa itself, but OGN and MBC are broadcasting companies. GomTV is the only broadcasting company with the rights to broadcast GSL.
Once this boils up, all the efforts made by OGN and MBC in promoting esports (I am talking about the OSL and MSL, as well as the proleague, in BW) will be swept under the rug forcefully. What will the SC fans think of that, particularly in Korea?
Dissent will grow against GSL and SC2 in particular. In a worst case scenario, the Korean government will shut down SC2 and GSL altogether. All SC fans will not benefit from this at all; we will be seeing the death of both BW and SC2 in South Korea.
F*CK YOU BLIZZARD, YOU GREEDY PANDERING IDIOTS! Stop lying about wanting to promote e-sports; you are only concerned about the depth of your own pockets. Stop feeding Bobby Kotick's ego. I am so glad I never bought SC2; I have been a spectator of BW for years and I wanted to be a fan of SC2, but with this fiasco happening now, I have lost faith in you. IP rights may be a big issue, but to go to such lengths so as to want to SHUT DOWN BW completely in favor of your own stupid SC2 game, you are a PR nightmare. Enjoy your downfall.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
I answered this before. The companies that make up Kespa have profited from advertising in BW, but Kespa itself hasn't.
In essence, this means that KeSPA is a separate organization created by the corporations with the sole intention of advertising. I'm not saying it's wrong to do that. I'm saying that it is wrong to claim that KeSPA is totally innocent and never does anything for itself but just for service.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
I answered this before. The companies that make up Kespa have profited from advertising in BW, but Kespa itself hasn't.
and yet you can't see the picture? organizations are head and kespa is the hand. Kespa's no-profit situation is irrelevant if those companies don't make money , they beat the shit out of Kespa.Really can't see the picture? those companies have huge force on kespa...
Free marketing to make your game the biggest of all games in Korea and now you want to pull the plug on it all. It seems logically sound but morally dickish to me.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
I answered this before. The companies that make up Kespa have profited from advertising in BW, but Kespa itself hasn't.
and yet you can't see the picture? organizations are head and kespa is the hand. Kespa's no-profit situation is irrelevant if those companies don't make money , they beat the shit out of Kespa.Really can't see the picture? those companies have huge force on kespa...
No, all i'm saying is that they're legally distinct organizations, and should be referred to as such.
I don't understand why this is so complicated for you.
What it seems like here is that blizzard went all-in to try and hijack the korean esport scene from kespa, but they don't really understand why the scene was successful or how to build it like kespa did.
They had a lot to gain if they had succeeded in bw getting killed off and sc2 becoming the next bw for a decade to come, but they didn't play their cards right and got too greedy so now this could all blow up in their face.
Hopefully the SC2 players will start realizing just how dangerous it is to have blizzard calling the shots, and they can see what we have seen of blizzard in regards to bw and wow esports, a large amount of neglect.
Blizzcon sc2 coverage has been pretty much atrocious, you know a company as well established as blizzard could hold amazing esports tourneys if they actually cared, but obviously they don't.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Nice post of vague statements without any specification of who "they" are. Also very nice how you completely shifted away from the American IP laws in Korea argument after making a claim but not backing it up with any proof or expertise in the area of Korean/International IP law. Of course, this isn't as great as your baseless claim that "they" don't understand how Kespa is hurting the pro scene, of course without any proof that A. "they don't understand" and B. That Kespa does hurt the pro scene. In general, I just love your arguments. They're as rigorous in logic as a mathematical proof.
If the actual legal proceeding takes place in Korea, ActiBlizzard will have a harder time winning this case. I just hope that this is over and done with soon.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
Damn.. that's tough news, but yeah I think Blizzard obviously has a say in what happens with their game. Hopefully they reach some kind of agreement with broadcasting. Tons of people love it.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
On October 23 2010 13:22 pikaaarrr :3 wrote: /sigh
announcing this at blizzcon is sorta dumb. alienates a lot of fans.
Honestly, i don't think they are. If they win the expect us to just "get over it" I mean, what are the fans really going to do? Eventually people will crave to watch again and we will forget and just conform. Sad but thats how the majority of us will go.
I love watching bw, and i always will as long as its around. I hope the court decides in MBC favor, and until the court date all i can do is wait.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
On October 23 2010 13:33 butter wrote: Does it even matter who "wins" at this point? Who is going to sponsor the MSL when they could get sued off the air...
I believe they are being sued for broadcasting Proleague as there hasn't been any news of a new MSL as far as I know.
(Proleague air times conflict with GSL)
Blizzard is really serious about killing what remains of BW it seems... I've never seen a company act this hostile against their own product before.
On October 23 2010 11:36 PalaceAthene wrote: Legally, blizzard is in the right. They tried to make contracts with Kespa before, but Kespa argued that Starcraft was a public property, and they made money off of it.
It's like if you bought a movie, and made people pay to watch it. It's illegal, and it's wrong. And if Kespa dies, the GSL is there. And no doubt companies will rise from Kespas ashes to take the reins of SC:BW.
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
And while it's been stated KeSPA bought rights from HanBitSoft, they were just the distributor. Like how Capcom distributes GTA games in Japan, they have no right to do with whatever they want concerning the IP itself, they're just the ones that translate it, and sale to the stores to retail.
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is. Take Blip TV: http://blip.tv/faq/content/
From the content restrictions: It is also our policy not to accept videogame screen recordings.
So as it stands it's sketchy when it comes to broadcasting copyright content from videogames.
Maybe commentators can throw their 2 cents into the ring, seeing as they freely upload casts, they know more than us.
Guess I deserved that warning. Fine, let me rephrase myself; watch the replay between Flash and JD on Tau Cross and then consider the fact that Blizzard are now actively trying to make sure we get to see no more of that. Goddamnit, this is so fucking sad. I really hope that Blizzard loses this. Well, back to boycotting Blizzard/Gretech again I guess.
On October 23 2010 13:26 vek wrote: MBC has to win... with the massive fails at blizzcon today Blizzard pretty much proved they don't give a shit about esports.
So much trash in this thread now that the dregs of TL have joined in.
Forbidding the players in your league from participating in competing shows is normal. While most north american sports now consist of monopolies, those who follow, say, combat sports will encounter such arrangements regularly.
Anyways, I'll make one prediction here which I'll revisit. Ongamenet won't be sued. It would be pretty idiotic for CJ to allow something with still unproven long term prospects disrupt one of the successful cable channels, since pro BW and other BW related shows make up a huge chunk of OGN's programming. As time passed with Gretech (partially owned by CJ, for those not in the know) making deals with OGN (also partially owned by CJ) but not MBC, it began to look more and more like CJ group was trying to not only control SC2 in Korea, but BW as well. I actually had a huge rant written against CJ/OGN/Gretech about this but I can't be bothered to finish it since I need to go back and again find the precise sources I wanted to cite as evidence. But two other dirty moves by them include keeping the coach who was involved in match-fixing as an "advisor" on hite entus - plus supposedly not offering Effort a decent salary to keep him playing.
Or...if Blizzard no longer plays by CJ's playbook and does sue OGN, Gretech's operations will definitely change, since CJ will definitely not want to give up OGN's success for Gretech.
On October 23 2010 11:41 deafhobbit wrote: [quote]
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
...
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is.
Your ability to in one post say the law is clearly on Blizzards side, and in another say that copyright law for videogames isn't fully developed enough to reach clear conclusions about it is remarkable.
On October 23 2010 13:26 vek wrote: MBC has to win... with the massive fails at blizzcon today Blizzard pretty much proved they don't give a shit about esports.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
...
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is.
Your ability to in one post say the law is clearly on Blizzards side, and in another say that copyright law for videogames isn't fully developed enough to reach clear conclusions about it is remarkable.
Well considering that this person's earlier posts contain clear misinformation, plus the fact that all 12 posts this person has made on TL are in this very thread... seems he or she is rather invested in this situation, emotionally or more.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
...
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is.
Your ability to in one post say the law is clearly on Blizzards side, and in another say that copyright law for videogames isn't fully developed enough to reach clear conclusions about it is remarkable.
Those are two different things.
IP wise, Starcraft can be used by Blizzard in anyway. For example, they could dismantle the whole game tomorrow, and delete the battle.net servers without any reprimands(Read the license, they have the right to revoke it at any time). In this point, they can deny an organization from advertising Starcraft for their company for game matches and leagues.(For example, the Kespa companies would probably put watch starcraft blah blah sponsored by blah blah, gaining some sort of revenue through advertisement of something they didn't license)
However, when it comes to showing content of that game and shoutcasting it or broadcasting gameplay is a different scenario. Not using for advertisement, not being used by sponsors, but just people posting a video of the game and commentating on it.
On October 23 2010 13:26 vek wrote: MBC has to win... with the massive fails at blizzcon today Blizzard pretty much proved they don't give a shit about esports.
If Blizzard succeed with this lawsuit.. I will throw my SC2 CE in the bin.
The blizzard stream that they wanted you to use (read: not the flash stream) worked 100% the entire time. Only the Flash stream crashed.
So the FLASH stream crashed, did it? Seems pretty anti-BW to me...typical Activision Blizzard.
Coincidence...or CONSPIRACY?
Actually, this is what I was going after. It's freaking ridiculous. First KeSPA, not Blizzard wants to destroy FLASH?!!! He's a great player who has a long life ahead of him!
On October 23 2010 12:57 PalaceAthene wrote: [quote]
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
...
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is.
Your ability to in one post say the law is clearly on Blizzards side, and in another say that copyright law for videogames isn't fully developed enough to reach clear conclusions about it is remarkable.
Well considering that this person's earlier posts contain clear misinformation, plus the fact that all 12 posts this person has made on TL are in this very thread... seems he or she is rather invested in this situation, emotionally or more.
Not really, I just find discussing things like this very interesting.
On October 23 2010 11:41 deafhobbit wrote: [quote]
Kespa hasn't made a dime off of BW. Kespa is a committee of companies that sponsor progaming teams, and a non profit organization.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
And while it's been stated KeSPA bought rights from HanBitSoft, they were just the distributor. Like how Capcom distributes GTA games in Japan, they have no right to do with whatever they want concerning the IP itself, they're just the ones that translate it, and sale to the stores to retail.
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is. Take Blip TV: http://blip.tv/faq/content/
From the content restrictions: It is also our policy not to accept videogame screen recordings.
So as it stands it's sketchy when it comes to broadcasting copyright content from videogames.
Maybe commentators can throw their 2 cents into the ring, seeing as they freely upload casts, they know more than us.
I don't understand, if gaming law hasn't been explored as you stated, how can you then make the second statement about HanBitSoft and being "just the distributor?"
Also, yes, games haven't been explored as much, but we're no discussing strictly games here, we're discussing e-SPORTS as they're called. Anyway, my original point stands in that most sports HAVE companies which control the distribution of the products their organization made.
Also, I'd think the Blip TV supports KeSPA if anything because it doesn't accept screen recordings, but it accepts videos with commentators. KeSPA hires the commentators in this case; they also hire the players, the observers, etc.
KeSPA is an organization of corporations that advertise through their teams.
Are you telling me companies advertise for fun with no intention of making money? They wouldn't do it if they weren't profiting. Sure, KeSPA itself may make no money, but it is all in the name of advertisement for the corporations that support the teams.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
And while it's been stated KeSPA bought rights from HanBitSoft, they were just the distributor. Like how Capcom distributes GTA games in Japan, they have no right to do with whatever they want concerning the IP itself, they're just the ones that translate it, and sale to the stores to retail.
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is. Take Blip TV: http://blip.tv/faq/content/
From the content restrictions: It is also our policy not to accept videogame screen recordings.
So as it stands it's sketchy when it comes to broadcasting copyright content from videogames.
Maybe commentators can throw their 2 cents into the ring, seeing as they freely upload casts, they know more than us.
I don't understand, if gaming law hasn't been explored as you stated, how can you then make the second statement about HanBitSoft and being "just the distributor?"
Also, yes, games haven't been explored as much, but we're no discussing strictly games here, we're discussing e-SPORTS as they're called. Anyway, my original point stands in that most sports HAVE companies which control the distribution of the products their organization made.
Also, I'd think the Blip TV supports KeSPA if anything because it doesn't accept screen recordings, but it accepts videos with commentators. KeSPA hires the commentators in this case; they also hire the players, the observers, etc.
Because Distributor, in any sense of the word, is just the company that localizes and 'distributes' the product. They have no control over the IP itself, they just have permission to distribute it.(Key work, distribute(.
Again, Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play e-Sports. A product that very well has a copyright owner, and protection from that. It is not a real 'sport' in the sense that not everyone can play it;IE schools can play Basketball, but they don't have to pay the NBA or anyone license fees, but if they wanted to use Starcraft for their class or anything, they'd have to ask permission from the license holder in order to do so.
That's why you can't compare Starcraft to real sports.
Blip.Tv was just an example of their terms of service directly stating limitations of using gameplay content in videos. Whether they support kespa indirectly because so is irrelevant.
On October 23 2010 13:46 Zona wrote: So much trash in this thread now that the dregs of TL have joined in.
Forbidding the players in your league from participating in competing shows is normal. While most north american sports now consist of monopolies, those who follow, say, combat sports will encounter such arrangements regularly.
Anyways, I'll make one prediction here which I'll revisit. Ongamenet won't be sued. It would be pretty idiotic for CJ to allow something with still unproven long term prospects disrupt one of the successful cable channels, since pro BW and other BW related shows make up a huge chunk of OGN's programming. As time passed with Gretech (partially owned by CJ, for those not in the know) making deals with OGN (also partially owned by CJ) but not MBC, it began to look more and more like CJ group was trying to not only control SC2 in Korea, but BW as well. I actually had a huge rant written against CJ/OGN/Gretech about this but I can't be bothered to finish it since I need to go back and again find the precise sources I wanted to cite as evidence. But two other dirty moves by them include keeping the coach who was involved in match-fixing as an "advisor" on hite entus - plus supposedly not offering Effort a decent salary to keep him playing.
Or...if Blizzard no longer plays by CJ's playbook and does sue OGN, Gretech's operations will definitely change, since CJ will definitely not want to give up OGN's success for Gretech.
Very possible. Not the first time the CJ group has played dirty trying to take over one industry. They tried the same thing in kpop using mnet as it's minion.
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player.(A.) It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game(B.) (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
I highlighted the main thrust; you guys are both wrong. (Yes I have read the whole thread, and I read the entirety of the ruling cited. Big thanks btw! Edifying.)
(A.) I agree that it's legally stupid if a game company owns all the gameplay that results from the game, especially if a game designed specifically for deeply unpredictable emergent gameplay is studied and mastered by devoted players. I don't think current pros think about it in terms of IP when they play, though. They think about it like an athlete. In a sense, whichever team owns the athlete owns their play. And league organizations have historically had free reign to dictate terms to member teams of their sport. No one ever invented sports though obviously, in an IP sense. Anyway that's not what Blizzard is suing; I would assume their legal strategy will be typical, not imaginative.
(B.) That wasn't indicated at all in the ruling. They talked about the arguments set forth, and about the criteria for copyright. This didn't include "all the gameplay", but one of Kaufman's arguments was that the gameplay is different always despite the AV; the judges correctly saw this as bullshit, and the AV copyright was the point anyway.
What you guys have brought up though is SUPER INTERESTING and completely unlitigated, as far as I can tell. Gedanken: what if soccer never existed, then someone thought it up and turned it into the global success it is now. Do players create IP just by play? Would a hypothetical FIFA have a right to adjust the rules, or is that infringement of the original design, by way of a knockoff essentially?
This player IP question is not about the developers as a whole. All the artists and programmers obviously get their shit copyrighted. It's about game design and how much a designer owns the (mostly unpredetermined) gameplay that results from player actions. I am highly fascinated.
(I don't think the court case we're discussing will go deeply in this direction though.)
On October 23 2010 12:52 TheStupidOne wrote: So wait... Blizzard gave the rights to Gretech for SC in Korea, Gretech last week decided to play nice and let PL continue and now Blizzard is sidestepping Gretech altogether and just directly suing? Am I getting this right?
Has the world gone completely insane?
Back on topic... can someone knowledgeable answer this (2.)?
On October 23 2010 12:52 TheStupidOne wrote: So wait... Blizzard gave the rights to Gretech for SC in Korea, Gretech last week decided to play nice and let PL continue and now Blizzard is sidestepping Gretech altogether and just directly suing? Am I getting this right?
Has the world gone completely insane?
Back on topic... can someone knowledgeable answer this (2.)?
Gretech never said they would just let Proleague continue and wouldn't sue although they did say some other stuff abt wanting esports to growth blah blah.
There was also an article by DES a few days ago that said Blizzard was personally stepping in instead of letting Gretech handle this.
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player.(A.) It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game(B.) (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
I highlighted the main thrust; you guys are both wrong. (Yes I have read the whole thread, and I read the entirety of the ruling cited. Big thanks btw! Edifying.)
(A.) I agree that it's legally stupid if a game company owns all the gameplay that results from the game, especially if a game designed specifically for deeply unpredictable emergent gameplay is studied and mastered by devoted players. I don't think current pros think about it in terms of IP when they play, though. They think about it like an athlete. In a sense, whichever team owns the athlete owns their play. And league organizations have historically had free reign to dictate terms to member teams of their sport. No one ever invented sports though obviously, in an IP sense. Anyway that's not what Blizzard is suing; I would assume their legal strategy will be typical, not imaginative.
(B.) That wasn't indicated at all in the ruling. They talked about the arguments set forth, and about the criteria for copyright. This didn't include "all the gameplay", but one of Kaufman's arguments was that the gameplay is different always despite the AV; the judges correctly saw this as bullshit, and the AV copyright was the point anyway.
What you guys have brought up though is SUPER INTERESTING and completely unlitigated, as far as I can tell. Gedanken: what if soccer never existed, then someone thought it up and turned it into the global success it is now. Do players create IP just by play? Would a hypothetical FIFA have a right to adjust the rules, or is that infringement of the original design, by way of a knockoff essentially?
This player IP question is not about the developers as a whole. All the artists and programmers obviously get their shit copyrighted. It's about game design and how much a designer owns the (mostly unpredetermined) gameplay that results from player actions. I am highly fascinated.
(I don't think the court case we're discussing will go deeply in this direction though.)
On October 23 2010 12:52 TheStupidOne wrote: So wait... Blizzard gave the rights to Gretech for SC in Korea, Gretech last week decided to play nice and let PL continue and now Blizzard is sidestepping Gretech altogether and just directly suing? Am I getting this right?
Has the world gone completely insane?
Back on topic... can someone knowledgeable answer this (2.)?
Gretech did not let MBC off. Gretech just released some details regarding the situation but also confirmed that MBC will be delt legally. They talked about their terms and correct any misinformation/bad rumors going on. Because people were confused saying gretech/blizz is evil and that they want to destroy BW, but it was because KeSPA was unable to reach a conclusion.
It looks like Blizzard is going to sue them as well? I wish there was a primary source somewhere.
Anyways, people are blaming Blizz/Gretech like fuck here. I'm blaming KeSPA. It took 3 years of negotiations for blizz to stop negotiations. KeSPA will never learn the lesson and it has come to a sour conclusion.
On October 23 2010 14:22 Lokian wrote: Anyways, people are blaming Blizz/Gretech like fuck here. I'm blaming KeSPA. It took 3 years of negotiations for blizz to stop negotiations. KeSPA will never learn the lesson and it has come to a sour conclusion.
Well depending on whose side of the story you listen to, the claim is that Kespa aimed to secure the rights years ago, but Blizzard wouldn't negotiate. Only when SC2's release was nigh did Blizzard agree to discuss things but never offered any reasonable terms.
Still, with these kinds of fights between corporate interests rarely does the public get to know really what's going on - unless there's a court case. If Blizzard follows through, hopefully the Korean courts are open enough for us to find out what's actually going on.
On October 23 2010 14:03 StatiC)Ex( wrote: Does no one here agree with the saying "Out with the old, in with the new?"
It's only right to move on.
Conservatives. -_-
I agree.
Tex-Mex for everyone!
So you both would rather see BW die than support the co-existence of both BW and SC2 as two viable and distinct e-sports? Great... you are not helping our cause here. We want to see e-sports survive, but if BW dies, e-sports will have gone backwards by several years.
As much as I want to swear at you both, I will not say anything more here. -_-
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player.(A.) It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game(B.) (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
I highlighted the main thrust; you guys are both wrong. (Yes I have read the whole thread, and I read the entirety of the ruling cited. Big thanks btw! Edifying.)
(A.) I agree that it's legally stupid if a game company owns all the gameplay that results from the game, especially if a game designed specifically for deeply unpredictable emergent gameplay is studied and mastered by devoted players. I don't think current pros think about it in terms of IP when they play, though. They think about it like an athlete. In a sense, whichever team owns the athlete owns their play. And league organizations have historically had free reign to dictate terms to member teams of their sport. No one ever invented sports though obviously, in an IP sense. Anyway that's not what Blizzard is suing; I would assume their legal strategy will be typical, not imaginative.
(B.) That wasn't indicated at all in the ruling. They talked about the arguments set forth, and about the criteria for copyright. This didn't include "all the gameplay", but one of Kaufman's arguments was that the gameplay is different always despite the AV; the judges correctly saw this as bullshit, and the AV copyright was the point anyway.
What you guys have brought up though is SUPER INTERESTING and completely unlitigated, as far as I can tell. Gedanken: what if soccer never existed, then someone thought it up and turned it into the global success it is now. Do players create IP just by play? Would a hypothetical FIFA have a right to adjust the rules, or is that infringement of the original design, by way of a knockoff essentially?
This player IP question is not about the developers as a whole. All the artists and programmers obviously get their shit copyrighted. It's about game design and how much a designer owns the (mostly unpredetermined) gameplay that results from player actions. I am highly fascinated.
(I don't think the court case we're discussing will go deeply in this direction though.)
On October 23 2010 12:52 TheStupidOne wrote: So wait... Blizzard gave the rights to Gretech for SC in Korea, Gretech last week decided to play nice and let PL continue and now Blizzard is sidestepping Gretech altogether and just directly suing? Am I getting this right?
Has the world gone completely insane?
Back on topic... can someone knowledgeable answer this (2.)?
Anyways, people are blaming Blizz/Gretech like fuck here. I'm blaming KeSPA. It took 3 years of negotiations for blizz to stop negotiations. KeSPA will never learn the lesson and it has come to a sour conclusion.
No organisation in their right mind would agree to the list of 6 demands placed on Kespa by Blizzard. Negotiations were never going anywhere.
On October 23 2010 12:57 PalaceAthene wrote: [quote]
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
And while it's been stated KeSPA bought rights from HanBitSoft, they were just the distributor. Like how Capcom distributes GTA games in Japan, they have no right to do with whatever they want concerning the IP itself, they're just the ones that translate it, and sale to the stores to retail.
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is. Take Blip TV: http://blip.tv/faq/content/
From the content restrictions: It is also our policy not to accept videogame screen recordings.
So as it stands it's sketchy when it comes to broadcasting copyright content from videogames.
Maybe commentators can throw their 2 cents into the ring, seeing as they freely upload casts, they know more than us.
I don't understand, if gaming law hasn't been explored as you stated, how can you then make the second statement about HanBitSoft and being "just the distributor?"
Also, yes, games haven't been explored as much, but we're no discussing strictly games here, we're discussing e-SPORTS as they're called. Anyway, my original point stands in that most sports HAVE companies which control the distribution of the products their organization made.
Also, I'd think the Blip TV supports KeSPA if anything because it doesn't accept screen recordings, but it accepts videos with commentators. KeSPA hires the commentators in this case; they also hire the players, the observers, etc.
Because Distributor, in any sense of the word, is just the company that localizes and 'distributes' the product. They have no control over the IP itself, they just have permission to distribute it.(Key work, distribute(.
Again, Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play e-Sports. A product that very well has a copyright owner, and protection from that. It is not a real 'sport' in the sense that not everyone can play it;IE schools can play Basketball, but they don't have to pay the NBA or anyone license fees, but if they wanted to use Starcraft for their class or anything, they'd have to ask permission from the license holder in order to do so.
That's why you can't compare Starcraft to real sports.
Blip.Tv was just an example of their terms of service directly stating limitations of using gameplay content in videos. Whether they support kespa indirectly because so is irrelevant.
Berkeley had a Starcraft class.... they didnt or need to get rights from Blizzard....
On October 23 2010 14:03 StatiC)Ex( wrote: Does no one here agree with the saying "Out with the old, in with the new?"
It's only right to move on.
Conservatives. -_-
I agree.
Tex-Mex for everyone!
So you both would rather see BW die than support the co-existence of both BW and SC2 as two viable and distinct e-sports? Great... you are not helping our cause here. We want to see e-sports survive, but if BW dies, e-sports will have gone backwards by several years.
As much as I want to swear at you both, I will not say anything more here. -_-
Again, BW and SC2 aren't sports, they are used for e-sports. Just like Halo 3 is used for e-sports, and isn't a sport itself. Fine line in semantics here. E-sports will be around as long as people play their Team Fortress 2 and counter-strike or whatever. SC2 and SC will still be used in E-sports, regardless of what happens in this situation. Someone else will license the permissions if MBC/OGN falls, after all when Gom licensed permissions to broadcast games, Blizzard gave them the contract at the price of $1.
...And then KeSPA threatened them and pretty much shut them down by witholding their own players. That's when Blizzard started seeing KeSPA as a threat, but now I'm just running off on a tangent.
i highly doubt anyone besides MAYBE gom would buy the ip rights to SC1 at higher than mbc/ogn would be willing to offer it because there aren't any players besides in KESPA
If the Proleague never comes Will she know how much I loved her Did I try in every way to show her every season That she's my only one And if my ip rights on earth were through And she must face Blizard without me Is the love I gave her in the past Gonna be enough to last
If they don't have this all sorted out now, there just going to run into the same problems when they want to broadcast a Starcraft 2 via MBC or OGN to a mainstream Korean audience. It's best that they are doing this now and taking the risk of taking competition in Brood War, a game they don't really care about from a financial standpoint, rather than waiting and screwing it up with Starcraft 2. Furthermore, if this forces Brood War to die, then that will hasten the transfer of progamers to Star 2. IMO, it's a win win situation for Blizzard. MBC should have negotiated, and hopefully OGN will get their shit together before the same happens to them.
On October 23 2010 14:03 StatiC)Ex( wrote: Does no one here agree with the saying "Out with the old, in with the new?"
It's only right to move on.
Conservatives. -_-
I agree.
Tex-Mex for everyone!
So you both would rather see BW die than support the co-existence of both BW and SC2 as two viable and distinct e-sports? Great... you are not helping our cause here. We want to see e-sports survive, but if BW dies, e-sports will have gone backwards by several years.
As much as I want to swear at you both, I will not say anything more here. -_-
Again, BW and SC2 aren't sports, they are used for e-sports. Just like Halo 3 is used for e-sports, and isn't a sport itself. Fine line in semantics here. E-sports will be around as long as people play their Team Fortress 2 and counter-strike or whatever. SC2 and SC will still be used in E-sports, regardless of what happens in this situation. Someone else will license the permissions if MBC/OGN falls, after all when Gom licensed permissions to broadcast games, Blizzard gave them the contract at the price of $1.
...And then KeSPA threatened them and pretty much shut them down by witholding their own players. That's when Blizzard started seeing KeSPA as a threat, but now I'm just running off on a tangent.
Am I reading this right?
You AGREED with StatiC)Ex that "out with the OLD, in with the NEW".
That implies you are supporting the notion that BW has to cease existing, and that SC2 has to take its place.
I then argued with this perspective in mind. You are only contradicting yourself when you say afterwards, "SC2 AND SC will still be used in E-sports...".
On October 23 2010 09:36 Shiragaku wrote: ...For some reason, I am supporting MBC over Blizzard. Is that normal?
I don`t support anybody... they both are acting like children. Blizzardhasnt given a shit till SC2 is out and MBC is trying to pull a fast one by not paying it. There`s no way they can win.
On October 23 2010 09:39 syllogism wrote: They should have done this years ago
dont you get that this was all planned? from blizzards perspective: BW pro-league was free advertising and passive hype-building for SC2. Now, the latter is out so it's time to kick BW to the curb. R>I>P
On October 23 2010 13:00 deafhobbit wrote: [quote]
Any yet Blizzard ISN'T holding back esports by trying to ban anyone from participating in any further OSL's, MSL's, Courage Tournaments, or Proleague matches?
Currently, they aren't. The only thing they're pissed about is the fact that the broadcasting organizations did not pay their dues in order to broadcast Starcraft games even though they were explicitly told so or risk legal consequences.
Notice MBC and OGN are being sued. Not KeSPA.
They're submitting for an injunction to stop proleague.
The specter of this is why OGN and MBC are hesitant to start up new starleagues right now.
Yeah, they're trying to fuck over esports.
Yes, we love E-Sports but we will stop proleague if we don't get control over everything.
I'm so mad I will punch a kitten.
They only want to control their product. *IB4 people argue soccer balls or whatever stupid analogies they bring up*
And no, pro sports are not owned by anybody but Starcraft isn't a sport. Starcraft is a product that is used to play a sport ("e-sports"). OGN and MBC, and in turn KeSPA has never had the right to use Starcraft for their business.
Pro sports ARE owned by people, especially the broadcasting of sports. Examples include the NBA, the NFL, and the MLB. All of them have a "do not broadcast without the permission of _______" before their games. In this case, Basketball:NBA, Starcraft:Kespa.
Wrong, it's been stated that KeSPA had bought the rights from HanBitSoft. They also had the right when they themselves bought the game... unless you're saying we can't put up our starcraft matches on youtube now without paying Blizzard royalties. Finally, their business is based around the matches. Starcraft matches are their product, which are a combination of many things, just like NBA matches are a product of many people's hard work.
Funny thing, uploading videos on certain sites restrict content from games. The thing is, Gaming law is sketchy in the sense that it hasn't been explored as much as Movies, TVs, and sports even.
And while it's been stated KeSPA bought rights from HanBitSoft, they were just the distributor. Like how Capcom distributes GTA games in Japan, they have no right to do with whatever they want concerning the IP itself, they're just the ones that translate it, and sale to the stores to retail.
Comparing games to sports or anything is a fallacy, because game laws aren't as cut clear as sport fair use is. Take Blip TV: http://blip.tv/faq/content/
From the content restrictions: It is also our policy not to accept videogame screen recordings.
So as it stands it's sketchy when it comes to broadcasting copyright content from videogames.
Maybe commentators can throw their 2 cents into the ring, seeing as they freely upload casts, they know more than us.
I don't understand, if gaming law hasn't been explored as you stated, how can you then make the second statement about HanBitSoft and being "just the distributor?"
Also, yes, games haven't been explored as much, but we're no discussing strictly games here, we're discussing e-SPORTS as they're called. Anyway, my original point stands in that most sports HAVE companies which control the distribution of the products their organization made.
Also, I'd think the Blip TV supports KeSPA if anything because it doesn't accept screen recordings, but it accepts videos with commentators. KeSPA hires the commentators in this case; they also hire the players, the observers, etc.
Because Distributor, in any sense of the word, is just the company that localizes and 'distributes' the product. They have no control over the IP itself, they just have permission to distribute it.(Key work, distribute(.
Again, Starcraft isn't a sport, it's a product used to play e-Sports. A product that very well has a copyright owner, and protection from that. It is not a real 'sport' in the sense that not everyone can play it;IE schools can play Basketball, but they don't have to pay the NBA or anyone license fees, but if they wanted to use Starcraft for their class or anything, they'd have to ask permission from the license holder in order to do so.
That's why you can't compare Starcraft to real sports.
Blip.Tv was just an example of their terms of service directly stating limitations of using gameplay content in videos. Whether they support kespa indirectly because so is irrelevant.
Berkeley had a Starcraft class.... they didnt or need to get rights from Blizzard....
On October 23 2010 14:03 StatiC)Ex( wrote: Does no one here agree with the saying "Out with the old, in with the new?"
It's only right to move on.
Conservatives. -_-
I agree.
Tex-Mex for everyone!
So you both would rather see BW die than support the co-existence of both BW and SC2 as two viable and distinct e-sports? Great... you are not helping our cause here. We want to see e-sports survive, but if BW dies, e-sports will have gone backwards by several years.
As much as I want to swear at you both, I will not say anything more here. -_-
Again, BW and SC2 aren't sports, they are used for e-sports. Just like Halo 3 is used for e-sports, and isn't a sport itself. Fine line in semantics here. E-sports will be around as long as people play their Team Fortress 2 and counter-strike or whatever. SC2 and SC will still be used in E-sports, regardless of what happens in this situation. Someone else will license the permissions if MBC/OGN falls, after all when Gom licensed permissions to broadcast games, Blizzard gave them the contract at the price of $1.
...And then KeSPA threatened them and pretty much shut them down by witholding their own players. That's when Blizzard started seeing KeSPA as a threat, but now I'm just running off on a tangent.
Am I reading this right?
You AGREED with StatiC)Ex that "out with the OLD, in with the NEW".
That implies you are supporting the notion that BW has to cease existing, and that SC2 has to take its place.
I then argued with this perspective in mind. You are only contradicting yourself when you say afterwards, "SC2 AND SC will still be used in E-sports...".
Oh, the irony.
I thought the tex mex part gave away the sarcasm in that reply.
On October 23 2010 14:03 StatiC)Ex( wrote: Does no one here agree with the saying "Out with the old, in with the new?"
It's only right to move on.
Conservatives. -_-
I agree.
Tex-Mex for everyone!
So you both would rather see BW die than support the co-existence of both BW and SC2 as two viable and distinct e-sports? Great... you are not helping our cause here. We want to see e-sports survive, but if BW dies, e-sports will have gone backwards by several years.
As much as I want to swear at you both, I will not say anything more here. -_-
Again, BW and SC2 aren't sports, they are used for e-sports. Just like Halo 3 is used for e-sports, and isn't a sport itself. Fine line in semantics here. E-sports will be around as long as people play their Team Fortress 2 and counter-strike or whatever. SC2 and SC will still be used in E-sports, regardless of what happens in this situation. Someone else will license the permissions if MBC/OGN falls, after all when Gom licensed permissions to broadcast games, Blizzard gave them the contract at the price of $1.
...And then KeSPA threatened them and pretty much shut them down by witholding their own players. That's when Blizzard started seeing KeSPA as a threat, but now I'm just running off on a tangent.
Am I reading this right?
You AGREED with StatiC)Ex that "out with the OLD, in with the NEW".
That implies you are supporting the notion that BW has to cease existing, and that SC2 has to take its place.
I then argued with this perspective in mind. You are only contradicting yourself when you say afterwards, "SC2 AND SC will still be used in E-sports...".
Oh, the irony.
I thought the tex mex part gave away the sarcasm in that reply.
God, you just take this too seriously, don't you?
And if I failed to detect your 'sarcasm'? Whatever.
On October 23 2010 09:36 Shiragaku wrote: ...For some reason, I am supporting MBC over Blizzard. Is that normal?
I don`t support anybody... they both are acting like children. Blizzardhasnt given a shit till SC2 is out and MBC is trying to pull a fast one by not paying it. There`s no way they can win.
Can't really see why it would be "pulling a fast one" when Blizzard asking for money was pretty recent. I mean MBC made it pretty clear they did not want to agree to blizzards terms. (negotiations childish sure, but neither party was willing to come to middle grounds, blizzard more so in my eyes.) If MBC wins, i suppose that will mean OGN doesn't need to pay blizzard anything as well. (though im not to sure about this)
On October 23 2010 14:03 StatiC)Ex( wrote: Does no one here agree with the saying "Out with the old, in with the new?"
It's only right to move on.
Conservatives. -_-
I agree.
Tex-Mex for everyone!
So you both would rather see BW die than support the co-existence of both BW and SC2 as two viable and distinct e-sports? Great... you are not helping our cause here. We want to see e-sports survive, but if BW dies, e-sports will have gone backwards by several years.
As much as I want to swear at you both, I will not say anything more here. -_-
Again, BW and SC2 aren't sports, they are used for e-sports. Just like Halo 3 is used for e-sports, and isn't a sport itself. Fine line in semantics here. E-sports will be around as long as people play their Team Fortress 2 and counter-strike or whatever. SC2 and SC will still be used in E-sports, regardless of what happens in this situation. Someone else will license the permissions if MBC/OGN falls, after all when Gom licensed permissions to broadcast games, Blizzard gave them the contract at the price of $1.
...And then KeSPA threatened them and pretty much shut them down by witholding their own players. That's when Blizzard started seeing KeSPA as a threat, but now I'm just running off on a tangent.
Am I reading this right?
You AGREED with StatiC)Ex that "out with the OLD, in with the NEW".
That implies you are supporting the notion that BW has to cease existing, and that SC2 has to take its place.
I then argued with this perspective in mind. You are only contradicting yourself when you say afterwards, "SC2 AND SC will still be used in E-sports...".
Oh, the irony.
I thought the tex mex part gave away the sarcasm in that reply.
God, you just take this too seriously, don't you?
And if I failed to detect your 'sarcasm'? Whatever.
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
The companies definitely have representatives in kespa, but kespa is actually a distinct entity iirc
Yes I know that, but my understanding was that there's nothing apart from those companies. I remember reading in a Milkis thread somewhere that their board of directors consisted entirely of those representatives.
yeah there's a board of directors and an executive office.
kespa is a distinct entity but the companies have quite a bit of say in them. Just because kespa says something does not necessarily mean all the teams hold that position.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Shut up you fucking idiotic troll.
All you've done in the 19 posts you've been on this forum is troll and make serious errors of fact arguing against Kespa.
How about you go build Esports for 10 years, totally untouched, and have the game maker make more than ridiculous demands.
Its not about money, its about control, Blizzard even went as far as to say they have the right to the progamer contracts... how the fuck is that possible.
Negotiations broke down because blizzard asked for more than licensing money, which is all they really had the right to.
kespa was willing to pay quite early, it aint about the money, get it through your thick skulls that blizzard DEMANDED control of everything, and that is clearly arguable.
The way I see it:
Blizz asking for money is not arguable
The rest of their freakish demands are clearly arguable. They don't own the pro league, they dont own the teams, they dont have a right to audit every single fkn company.
On October 23 2010 09:38 mustaju wrote: I don't know what is worse. That this actually is happening or that we are bound to get a massive amount of people here saying that this is a good thing.
funny thing is, every single one who thnks and says it's "good" doesn'T have any SC:BW icon in their sigs, and are registered sth. like september 2010
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Shut up you fucking idiotic troll.
All you've done in the 19 posts you've been on this forum is troll and make serious errors of fact arguing against Kespa.
How about you go build Esports for 10 years, totally untouched, and have the game maker make more than ridiculous demands.
Its not about money, its about control, Blizzard even went as far as to say they have the right to the progamer contracts... how the fuck is that possible.
Negotiations broke down because blizzard asked for more than licensing money, which is all they really had the right to.
kespa was willing to pay quite early, it aint about the money, get it through your thick skulls that blizzard DEMANDED control of everything, and that is clearly arguable.
The way I see it:
Blizz asking for money is not arguable
The rest of their freakish demands are clearly arguable. They don't own the pro league, they dont own the teams, they dont have a right to audit every single fkn company.
Sick of these fanboys
The irony is, I'm sick of Kespa fanboys.
And that's what you are.
Kettle calling the pot black, tsk tsk.
And it's all about the money. Blizzard doesn't have 'control over everything' when it came to Gom. Gom does. This is where your argument falls.
It's pointless trying to argue to them. They don't understand how at this point in time, Kespa is hurting the pro scene more than helping them by forbidding any of their players from playing in the GSL.
Shut up you fucking idiotic troll.
All you've done in the 19 posts you've been on this forum is troll and make serious errors of fact arguing against Kespa.
How about you go build Esports for 10 years, totally untouched, and have the game maker make more than ridiculous demands.
Its not about money, its about control, Blizzard even went as far as to say they have the right to the progamer contracts... how the fuck is that possible.
Negotiations broke down because blizzard asked for more than licensing money, which is all they really had the right to.
kespa was willing to pay quite early, it aint about the money, get it through your thick skulls that blizzard DEMANDED control of everything, and that is clearly arguable.
The way I see it:
Blizz asking for money is not arguable
The rest of their freakish demands are clearly arguable. They don't own the pro league, they dont own the teams, they dont have a right to audit every single fkn company.
Sick of these fanboys
The irony is, I'm sick of Kespa fanboys.
And that's what you are.
Kettle calling the pot black, tsk tsk.
And it's all about the money. Blizzard doesn't have 'control over everything' when it came to Gom. Gom does. This is where your argument falls.
So if "it's all about the money", then why will Blizzard STILL not accept Kespa's initial IP rights payment? It is obviously clear that Blizzard wants something more, which is more control over the Korean proscene THROUGH Gretech (which owns GomTV). Get it?
On October 23 2010 16:29 cocoa_sg wrote: So if "it's all about the money", then why will Blizzard STILL not accept Kespa's initial IP rights payment? It is obviously clear that Blizzard wants something more, which is more control over the Korean proscene THROUGH Gretech (which owns GomTV). Get it?
KeSPA has never acknowledged IP rights afaik. They are only willing to pay for the licensing fees to broadcast things, but they will not acknowledge IP rights of StarCraft.
On October 23 2010 16:29 cocoa_sg wrote: So if "it's all about the money", then why will Blizzard STILL not accept Kespa's initial IP rights payment? It is obviously clear that Blizzard wants something more, which is more control over the Korean proscene THROUGH Gretech (which owns GomTV). Get it?
KeSPA has never acknowledged IP rights afaik. They are only willing to pay for the licensing fees to broadcast things, but they will not acknowledge IP rights of StarCraft.
I stand corrected on mistaking IP rights for licensing fees.
Now, let's look at this, from your quote above, therein is where the problem lies:
Blizzard never enforced those IP rights of Starcraft for the past 10 years, so it was basically a non-issue. Why enforce them now only when SC2 has come out?
This is irresponsibility on Blizzard's part in protecting their intellectual rights. They do not have much of a say on such matters now as they would have when BW was just blooming in South Korea.
It's funny, none of this arguing between Blizzard, Gretech, KeSPA and the channels ever really gave me the impression that Brood War was going to die. I figured as long as there were players willing to play and fans willing to watch, Brood War would live on.
It's actually the new Proleague schedule which really gave me a sense of dread. There are now less teams, with less players or at least practice partners, but they're going to run as many matches per week and per season as before. And with more games every match, too. I read the interviews too, and some mentioned that the new format tires them and leaves them with little time to practice between games. And I feel that the abundance of StarCraft matches might oversaturate the audience. I know I haven't watched as much Proleague recently as I used to. (Though I guess midterms and running at the same time as GSL might be other explanations for that ).
Anyway, I apologise for running this off topic, please go back to your regularly scheduled arguing.
On October 23 2010 09:38 mustaju wrote: I don't know what is worse. That this actually is happening or that we are bound to get a massive amount of people here saying that this is a good thing.
funny thing is, every single one who thnks and says it's "good" doesn'T have any SC:BW icon in their sigs, and are registered sth. like september 2010
I noticed this started happening in numbers during the BW off-season. Every time there was a discussion on this subject.
On October 23 2010 16:46 Fanatic-Templar wrote: It's funny, none of this arguing between Blizzard, Gretech, KeSPA and the channels ever really gave me the impression that Brood War was going to die. I figured as long as there were players willing to play and fans willing to watch, Brood War would live on.
It's actually the new Proleague schedule which really gave me a sense of dread. There are now less teams, with less players or at least practice partners, but they're going to run as many matches per week and per season as before. And with more games every match, too. I read the interviews too, and some mentioned that the new format tires them and leaves them with little time to practice between games. And I feel that the abundance of StarCraft matches might oversaturate the audience. I know I haven't watched as much Proleague recently as I used to. (Though I guess midterms and running at the same time as GSL might be other explanations for that ).
Anyway, I apologise for running this off topic, please go back to your regularly scheduled arguing.
Some players also welcome the Bo7 format. Read Sea's interview. I don't think the audience is oversaturated.
If they didn't increase the number of games, sponsors might not have signed on because 2 fewer teams means less airtime.
Blizzard doesn't really care as long as no money is trying to be made out of their stuff.
At 2007, Blizzard contacted KeSPA after the whole fiasco about trying to charge people who wanted to come to the games. They wanted to set up a negotiation, but we all know nothing came out of it.
While I am pretty sure Blizzard just wants to make SC 2 big while reducing BW's popularity (because both shares some degree of same fanbase), it's not quite correct to think that Blizzard only just begun to think about their IP rights. They have been since 2007.
On October 23 2010 16:48 Selith wrote: Blizzard doesn't really care as long as no money is trying to be made out of their stuff.
At 2007, Blizzard contacted KeSPA after the whole fiasco about trying to charge people who wanted to come to the games. They wanted to set up a negotiation, but we all know nothing came out of it.
While I am pretty sure Blizzard just wants to make SC 2 big while reducing BW's popularity (because both shares some degree of same fanbase), it's not quite correct to think that Blizzard only just begun to think about their IP rights. They have been since 2007.
You do have a good point. However, BW lasted for nearly a decade now, which is 10 years.
So if we want to agree that Blizzard 'started thinking' about their IP rights since 2007, that would mean they started 3 years ago. This also means they FAILED to do anything to protect their IP rights for the past 7 years before 2007.
Let's look at an example, shall we:
We share a common lawn, half of which belongs to each other. I put up a sign saying "This is my half of the lawn" while you leave your half open and free.
Then, you go on a 7-year vacation. I settle down on your half of the lawn too, enjoying the sun and BBQ'ing with friends. I put down another sign saying "This half of the lawn belongs to me too".
I then charge my friends if they want to use my entire lawn now. You come back after 7 years and start raising a ruckus about how 'your' half belongs to you.
On October 23 2010 16:48 Selith wrote: Blizzard doesn't really care as long as no money is trying to be made out of their stuff.
At 2007, Blizzard contacted KeSPA after the whole fiasco about trying to charge people who wanted to come to the games. They wanted to set up a negotiation, but we all know nothing came out of it.
While I am pretty sure Blizzard just wants to make SC 2 big while reducing BW's popularity (because both shares some degree of same fanbase), it's not quite correct to think that Blizzard only just begun to think about their IP rights. They have been since 2007.
You do have a good point. However, BW lasted for nearly a decade now, which is 10 years.
So if we want to agree that Blizzard 'started thinking' about their IP rights since 2007, that would mean they started 3 years ago. This also means they FAILED to do anything to protect their IP rights for the past 7 years before 2007.
Let's look at an example, shall we:
We share a common lawn, half of which belongs to each other. I put up a sign saying "This is my half of the lawn" while you leave your half open and free.
Then, you go on a 7-year vacation. I settle down on your half of the lawn too, enjoying the sun and BBQ'ing with friends. I put down another sign saying "This half of the lawn belongs to me too".
I then charge my friends if they want to use my entire lawn now. You come back after 7 years and start raising a ruckus about how 'your' half belongs to you.
Would you have much of a say in this anymore?
It is pretty much obvious that Blizzard has ulterior motive of trying to make SC 2 the thing to be, since they are acting NOW instead of before. Only possible reason I can think of is to lessen the backlash (as SC was lot more popular back in 2007), but who knows?
I wouldn't say that example is good though. More correct way to say is:
I own a piece of land. It lawfully belongs to me. I go on a vacation for a while. Then someone comes in and builds a non-profit building on the land that I own, and didn't give him or her permission to do so.
Lawfully, I do have every right to boot him or her out of the lawful land that I own. Whether it is a nice thing to do or not, is not so clear-cut.
You do have a good point. However, BW lasted for nearly a decade now, which is 10 years.
So if we want to agree that Blizzard 'started thinking' about their IP rights since 2007, that would mean they started 3 years ago. This also means they FAILED to do anything to protect their IP rights for the past 7 years before 2007.
Let's look at an example, shall we:
We share a common lawn, half of which belongs to each other. I put up a sign saying "This is my half of the lawn" while you leave your half open and free.
Then, you go on a 7-year vacation. I settle down on your half of the lawn too, enjoying the sun and BBQ'ing with friends. I put down another sign saying "This half of the lawn belongs to me too".
I then charge my friends if they want to use my entire lawn now. You come back after 7 years and start raising a ruckus about how 'your' half belongs to you.
Would you have much of a say in this anymore?
It is pretty much obvious that Blizzard has ulterior motive of trying to make SC 2 the thing to be, since they are acting NOW instead of before. Only possible reason I can think of is to lessen the backlash (as SC was lot more popular back in 2007), but who knows?
I wouldn't say that example is good though. More correct way to say is:
I own a piece of land. It lawfully belongs to me. I go on a vacation for a while. Then someone comes in and builds a non-profit building on the land that I own, and didn't give him or her permission to do so.
Lawfully, I do have every right to boot him or her out of the lawful land that I own. Whether it is a nice thing to do or not, is not so clear-cut.
The key word here is "lawfully". When BW started becoming popular in South Korea, it was everyone's commodity. When you buy a product, it is yours now.
That would be the case if Blizzard never bothered to enforce their IP rights before 2007, which is true. And as such, until then, Kespa had a say in owning that commodity and creating an entire e-sports scene out of it.
The key word here is "lawfully". When BW started becoming popular in South Korea, it was everyone's commodity. When you buy a product, it is yours now.
That would be the case if Blizzard never bothered to enforce their IP rights before 2007, which is true. And as such, until then, Kespa had a say in owning that commodity and creating an entire e-sports scene out of it.
And this is how my example goes in.
All software products you buy are not actually "yours" in a true sense. They are more or less "leased" or "given a license to use". Although I am not 100% sure if EULA is legally binding, but that's what many of the commercial software publishers will tell you (not just Blizzard).
And public performance of many things are not allowed by many different products unless you get a license to do so beforehand. IE) Movies and music.
Not that it's particularly surprising, but this thread is a pretty sad example of [most] people basing their assertions purely on how they wish things should be rather how they are.
for everybody who is saying they should have done this for years , ask yourself why they didn't ?, cause it was convenient for blizzard (i'm sure they where getting money out of it) , and i'm 100% that this time they will lose this lawsuit against mbc and ogn
The key word here is "lawfully". When BW started becoming popular in South Korea, it was everyone's commodity. When you buy a product, it is yours now.
That would be the case if Blizzard never bothered to enforce their IP rights before 2007, which is true. And as such, until then, Kespa had a say in owning that commodity and creating an entire e-sports scene out of it.
And this is how my example goes in.
All software products you buy are not actually "yours" in a true sense. They are more or less "leased" or "given a license to use". Although I am not 100% sure if EULA is legally binding, but that's what many of the commercial software publishers will tell you (not just Blizzard).
And public performance of many things are not allowed by many different products unless you get a license to do so beforehand. IE) Movies and music.
Maybe it is different in Singapore.
And my friend, this is where it gets COMPLICATED.
EULA has been evolving throughout the years. BW was an old game, and e-sports was pretty much non-existent. I remember the old days when BW players were free to use the Spawn function to replicate their BW games through LAN. Yes, that Spawn function was part of the game and thus implemented by Blizzard.
The EULA of old is nowhere near the same as the EULA of now, or mostly varied differently. So thus, it is hard to say for sure whether my or your example is right.
The license to use a product was a newer surplus to evolving laws between the past and the present. So again, it is like trying to hold a liquid bar when it only seeps through your fingers. Such issues only complicate the whole thing.
On October 23 2010 17:27 cocoa_sg wrote: And my friend, this is where it gets COMPLICATED.
EULA has been evolving throughout the years. BW was an old game, and e-sports was pretty much non-existent. I remember the old days when BW players were free to use the Spawn function to replicate their BW games through LAN. Yes, that Spawn function was part of the game and thus implemented by Blizzard.
The EULA of old is nowhere near the same as the EULA of now, or mostly varied differently. So thus, it is hard to say for sure whether my or your example is right.
The license to use a product was a newer surplus to evolving laws between the past and the present. So again, it is like trying to hold a liquid bar when it only seeps through your fingers. Such issues only complicate the whole thing.
Then again, trying to apply laws to a something totally new (like e-sports) has always been an complicated issue.
I don't think any arguments or going "KESPA HAS THE LAW ON THEIR SIDE" or "BLIZZARD DOES!" will do much. It remains to be seen.
Although, that complication is why KeSPA is pushing for a new law in Korea which would grant KeSPA a full IP rights to any and all games (regardless of where it is made) if it is to be used for e-sports.
On October 23 2010 17:06 Selith wrote: I own a piece of land. It lawfully belongs to me. I go on a vacation for a while. Then someone comes in and builds a non-profit building on the land that I own, and didn't give him or her permission to do so.
Lawfully, I do have every right to boot him or her out of the lawful land that I own. Whether it is a nice thing to do or not, is not so clear-cut.
There are actually laws about that vary from place to place. It's under adverse possession. Ownership of the property can be passed to the person who currently resides there depending on how many continuous years they lived on it, if the owner knew (or should have) and did anything about it, and if they were open about possessing it. This law only deals with land, but that's also why analogies are bad in this situation.
It's strange how you say that Kespa doesn't acknowledge Blizzard's IP rights. There's little point in paying a license fee if they don't at least "acknowledge" that Blizzard owns something. What other type of license would they be paying for if it's not some type of IP license to broadcast? What they don't acknowledge is how far Blizzard says their IP rights extend. That is not the same as not acknowledging them at all. I suppose it's the same either way for Blizzard, but it's up to the Korea counts to decide now.
That issue in 2007 was actually Kespa/IEG charging OGN and MBC for Proleague broadcasting, not charging spectators. They did at one time try to charge a fee at one of the finals, but that was way, way before 2007, and they didn't do it again because no one came.
EULAs are not legally binding depending on where the trial is done.
On October 23 2010 17:27 cocoa_sg wrote: And my friend, this is where it gets COMPLICATED.
EULA has been evolving throughout the years. BW was an old game, and e-sports was pretty much non-existent. I remember the old days when BW players were free to use the Spawn function to replicate their BW games through LAN. Yes, that Spawn function was part of the game and thus implemented by Blizzard.
The EULA of old is nowhere near the same as the EULA of now, or mostly varied differently. So thus, it is hard to say for sure whether my or your example is right.
The license to use a product was a newer surplus to evolving laws between the past and the present. So again, it is like trying to hold a liquid bar when it only seeps through your fingers. Such issues only complicate the whole thing.
Then again, trying to apply laws to a something totally new (like e-sports) has always been an complicated issue.
I don't think any arguments or going "KESPA HAS THE LAW ON THEIR SIDE" or "BLIZZARD DOES!" will do much. It remains to be seen.
Although, that complication is why KeSPA is pushing for a new law in Korea which would grant KeSPA a full IP rights to any and all games (regardless of where it is made) if it is to be used for e-sports.
Isn't that a good thing? We are seeing the start of a new era, when there has never been a precedent to this before. E-sports is facing a battle to survive, and this is the defining moment of truth. It is all up to the Korean court now to determine the fate of everything related to E-sports. New laws will be crafted, and we can look back to this in the future as a reference when it comes to IP rights and such.
Now, I shall temporarily shift from a neutral position as I say this: I hope Blizzard gets some sense knocked into them. I will not directly say it but you know my stance. ^_^
Acknowledging IP rights will open the hellgate for KeSPA. So they aren't going to.
Just getting the license to broadcast is enough for them.
KeSPA stated that is their position already with their GomTV negotiations. They are willing to pay for being able to broadcast, but they will not acknowledge IP rights. I mean, if they actually thought of IP rights, why would they even say that "Since SC is played by many in public, it is public property just like soccer. No one owns StarCraft."?
I'm surprised that so many people are blindly supporting kespa. KeSPA has done some shady and questionable things under their "time" and I don't see the moral issue here. Blizzard made both games, as most of you have mentioned, none of us are read up on Korean Law about IP rights, but I have a hard time seeing how they'd have vastly different views on IP than pretty much any other country out there.
Legally Blizzard SHOULD be fine. "Should" because again, I'm not very well ready in korean law. Also KeSPA has been douches for such a long time, none of you remember the shit they pulled during the GomTV SC/BW leagues? I'm all for Blizzard in this one, take it to court!
On October 23 2010 17:59 meRz wrote: I'm surprised that so many people are blindly supporting kespa. KeSPA has done some shady and questionable things under their "time" and I don't see the moral issue here. Blizzard made both games, as most of you have mentioned, none of us are read up on Korean Law about IP rights, but I have a hard time seeing how they'd have vastly different views on IP than pretty much any other country out there.
Legally Blizzard SHOULD be fine. "Should" because again, I'm not very well ready in korean law. Also KeSPA has been douches for such a long time, none of you remember the shit they pulled during the GomTV SC/BW leagues? I'm all for Blizzard in this one, take it to court!
Yeah, let's support the fatass corporation suying the non-profit organization so that they stop an 10 years activity so that the big fatass corporation can make more money on their new product regardless its (mediocre) quality.
Makes perfect sense.
I don't think Kespa is great. But they are the one who made esport, who made the success of BW (and in fact, in a way, of SC2), and they deserve huge credit for that.
If chess was invented today we would have to play royalties for holding a tournament. I hope one day people realize that the notion of intellectual property has been pusehd to an extent that it is completely fucked up.
On October 23 2010 15:17 DwD wrote: I thought Ongamenet had a deal with GomTV?
I have a feeling that Blizzard never intended the negotiations to go anywhere and now that PL has restarted they've abandoned their fake benevolent stance and are going all out to try to kill BW.
I hope that MBC/KeSPA win here, both for a practical reason -- I want to continue watching pro BW -- and on principle: I want less restrictive IP rights so that developers don't have total control over every aspect of their games, otherwise the growth of esports will be stifled.
It's bullshit that Blizzard wants broadcast rights.
I hope, if anything, we get definitive laws concerning esports. So shit like this will never happen again.
And for the person saying game companies in the US owning all matches made with their game. How does that work with MLG and other US eports broadcasters.
Just wondering - is there a possibility for Kespa paying Blizzard contract fee and starting a SC2 league, or is that out of the option and the only thing Kespa is interested is BW?
On October 23 2010 17:59 meRz wrote: I'm surprised that so many people are blindly supporting kespa. KeSPA has done some shady and questionable things under their "time" and I don't see the moral issue here. Blizzard made both games, as most of you have mentioned, none of us are read up on Korean Law about IP rights, but I have a hard time seeing how they'd have vastly different views on IP than pretty much any other country out there.
Legally Blizzard SHOULD be fine. "Should" because again, I'm not very well ready in korean law. Also KeSPA has been douches for such a long time, none of you remember the shit they pulled during the GomTV SC/BW leagues? I'm all for Blizzard in this one, take it to court!
yeah because of some stupid rule or whatsoever i shouldnt support them IN THIS.
and u obvious know shit about the Kespa GomTV SC:BW stuff... companies pulled players out because they are sponsored by MBC for example. and ofc they dont want their players to play on a different broadcasting station... and 4 5 teams were left. so it wasnt "kespa" the single teams made the decision (which is kespa in someway. but if u say kespa pulled the teams out then EVERYTIME would be pulled out and they wouldnt be left with 4 or 5 teams).
Seriously why try to kill SC:BW? Does Blizzard have so little faith that Starcraft 2 would not have a huge fanbase? Look at the amount of tournaments/cups out there right now. Its just too many that I don't even bother looking at them anymore. Its already a testament that Starcraft 2 would have an ever-increasing fanbase at least until the last expansion is released.
Blizzard is just trying to be greedy here and trying to get consumers who would sooner or later switch over to Starcraft 2. Or maybe it would not happen, as MBC / OGN has been a huge part of most korean youngsters. Even then, what would one country matter? Sure, SK is the epitome of progaming, but trying to sue them so that people would stop watching their leagues is just plain stupid. So Blizzard has no qualms in destroying at least the lives of all the progamers out there just because of a petty issue of IP rights and also to promote their next big hit Starcraft 2? Then what, they are going to remove everyone from playing diablo 2 so that they can force them to play diablo 3? And then when starcraft 3 comes out(if there is one) they are going to do the same thing and stop everyone from playing starcraft 2?Spare me from all this nonsense.
Just because your games are the most popular out there doesn't mean you have the rights to dictate everything in the e-sports industry and the game industry. Have a reality check, ACTIVISION blizzard
On October 23 2010 18:26 Odoakar wrote: Just wondering - is there a possibility for Kespa paying Blizzard contract fee and starting a SC2 league, or is that out of the option and the only thing Kespa is interested is BW?
From their official twitter:
troken11 n o @ @official_KeSPA hello, do you have any plans regarding Starcraft 2 if the negotiations with gretech are succesful?
KeSPA @troken11 We have no specific plan yet. However, if the negotiations are successful, all progame teams would be willingly to consider. ^^
Kespa was very actively involved in Warcraft 3 Korean e-sports and OGN and MBC hosted a bunch of War 3 tournaments before the scandal/lack of interest, so it's not like they're adverse to new games.
If Blizzard wins this, it will create a precedent for other game-developpers. Everyone and their mom is going to meddle in how their game is supposed to be broadcast and/or played because of the IP-rights...
Surely the best option.. is for a Worldwide E-sports group to be created.. then commissioning a good strong developer to make a specific genre type for them. That the E-sports group would then own and could adapt, modify and abuse as they see fit for e-sports. I heard rumours that MLG were once going to do this for it's own FPS so it didn't have to rely on Halo and bungie's sucky patching and mapping. Surely in this recession dominated period, someone with kespa's financial clout (from its sponsers) could hire a decent quality team to build a game from scratch for their own use to their own specifications. The we could cut out all the developer/publisher abuse that E-sports has been suffering. Or maybe we could convince a good development team to release a game and then open source it to the community providing we all agree to buy millions of copies
I think most people here choose KeSPA's side because they don't want Proleague to come to an end. When you think about it objectively though, Blizzard has every right to own the game they made. You can look at this from the "it's been 12 years, why would they suddenly care now?" -side. Or you can look at it from the perspective that Blizzard was nice enough to not shut down Proleague when it began all those years ago.
If KeSPA was all for the continuation of BW they would acknowledge Blizzards' IP rights. They haven't and forced the start of the new PL season, inevitably forcing Blizzard to respond by sueing.
its really annoying that most of the people who are GLAD that blizzard is doing this have just recently joined the SC scene. That if it wasn't for MBC's and OGN's pioneering the scene, SC2 would have been worst than WC3(WHERE IS WC3 NOW?). and E-sports wouldn't have been as big and the need to balance games for competitive play wouldn't be a big issue.
sick and tired of arguing these types of threads, where all misinformed assholes post like they know shit. there isn't any healthy discussion here at all. some are just pissing at each other. fuck this.
I can't pretend to know the whole history of this but i will say, Blizzard have the right if their game is being used, it IS their game. If you are a programmer you might relate. Not Pro-gamer, Pro-grammer. But like i said i don't know the history so maybe im missing something.
On October 23 2010 19:24 MarwanBaki wrote: I can't pretend to know the whole history of this but i will say, Blizzard have the right if their game is being used, it IS their game. If you are a programmer you might relate. Not Pro-gamer, Pro-grammer. But like i said i don't know the history so maybe im missing something.
then just shut the fuck up then? you just implied in your post that the very thing that this website represent is wrong ..
Its not pro-gamer nor pro-grammer .. its fucking PROGAMING
On October 23 2010 19:24 aimaimaim wrote: its really annoying that most of the people who are GLAD that blizzard is doing this have just recently joined the SC scene. That if it wasn't for MBC's and OGN's pioneering the scene, SC2 would have been worst than WC3(WHERE IS WC3 NOW?). and E-sports wouldn't have been as big and the need to balance games for competitive play wouldn't be a big issue.
sick and tired of arguing these types of threads, where all misinformed assholes post like they know shit. there isn't any healthy discussion here at all. some are just pissing at each other. fuck this.
MBC Hwaiting
Because your post is informed and a prime example of a healthy discussion? You're saying that everyone who isn't surprised or against Blizzard sueing is an asshole ...
On October 23 2010 19:24 aimaimaim wrote: its really annoying that most of the people who are GLAD that blizzard is doing this have just recently joined the SC scene. That if it wasn't for MBC's and OGN's pioneering the scene, SC2 would have been worst than WC3(WHERE IS WC3 NOW?). and E-sports wouldn't have been as big and the need to balance games for competitive play wouldn't be a big issue.
sick and tired of arguing these types of threads, where all misinformed assholes post like they know shit. there isn't any healthy discussion here at all. some are just pissing at each other. fuck this.
MBC Hwaiting
Because your post is informed and a prime example of a healthy discussion? You're saying that everyone who isn't surprised or against Blizzard sueing is an asshole ...
not really ..
just those poster who think they knew about something and post it like they were absolute facts.
on topic:
seriously .. IP rights .. its not like MBC nor OGN nor KeSPA are selling things with the label "Starcraft" in them. note, Selling them is not the same as Using them.
its not like kespa is selling Zerg Zergling Hamburgers, or a Motorcycle called "Terran Vulture" ..
what Kespa "sell" are progamers and the time where the broadcasting channels can advertise items from other companies who wants to be advertised to the fans or SPECTATOR who watches the progamers play. because thats what kespa represent. the players.
do correct me if i said wrong. or if i understood it wrong
On October 23 2010 09:53 BigBadSkathe wrote: If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
Someone more knowledgeable please correct me if I'm mistaken, but does KeSPA not consist precisely of the companies that are sponsoring the pros teams?
This is so fucking pointless. Like 2 farmers 2000 years bc arguing whether the earth is flat or not. Fact is, we dont know ANYTHING.
People have to remember thought, IP right is the ONLY reason why games like BW etc are made. If those arent respected then theres no income. So analogies comparing to physical products like bicycles are retarted. Second, how can KeSPA claim starcraft to be public property yet charge broadcast fees. I think that mostly companies owning IP rights to games like Blizzard does, doesnt mind if their games are used for whatever, as long as it isnt for commercial purposes.
Wish everyone would just shut up on the whole matter, noone knows the full story 99% of this thread is absolutely silly in regards to how a court case would work and the idea that these huge organisations (samsung, sk etc) are going to put all their power/resources into a piece of small (on their grand scheme) advertising is ludicrous.
Just let the thing happen, support who you want to support but please don't try and try and talk like you know what these absolutely huge companies are going to do to protect their declining marketting gig.
My Korean is not good enough to translate the whole thing. But one statement is clear: MBC intends to launch MSL next week. They say that if Blizzard sues, then MBC will response according to procedure.[no specifics mentioned]
On October 23 2010 19:22 Saechiis wrote: I think most people here choose KeSPA's side because they don't want Proleague to come to an end. When you think about it objectively though, Blizzard has every right to own the game they made. You can look at this from the "it's been 12 years, why would they suddenly care now?" -side. Or you can look at it from the perspective that Blizzard was nice enough to not shut down Proleague when it began all those years ago.
If KeSPA was all for the continuation of BW they would acknowledge Blizzards' IP rights. They haven't and forced the start of the new PL season, inevitably forcing Blizzard to respond by sueing.
There is argumentation against IP as an enforcable concept alltogether.
The fact is - IP IS NOT A SCARCE RESOURCE, only the physical carrier of it is scarce. Property rights exist to solve conflicts over scarce resouces where there cannot exist peaceful co-use of the matter. Intellectual property does not fill this criterion.
Furthermore, Intellectual property actually goes against the concept of actual scarce property. In order to enforce artificial scarcity of non-scarce ends(computer game broadcast rights), it infringes the property rights of owners of SCARCE resources(aka the capital of MBC).
People have to remember thought, IP right is the ONLY reason why games like BW etc are made. If those arent respected then theres no income. So analogies comparing to physical products like bicycles are retarted. Second, how can KeSPA claim starcraft to be public property yet charge broadcast fees. I think that mostly companies owning IP rights to games like Blizzard does, doesnt mind if their games are used for whatever, as long as it isnt for commercial purposes.
Nonsense. Remember, it is child's play for pirates to use a game like Wow on private servers. Easier to buy on the stores. However still, the vast majority prefers Blizz's own servers and play legitimately. It is because of the service! What they are paying for is not the use rights code and data but for the service provided by blizz, along with the demand for the physical scarce products(all the cool manuals posters etc). Same thing with SC2, D2.
xarthaz, that is exactly why IP is so important. Why do gamedevelopers have if they dont have IPs. Who is going to make expensive games if they cant get their development costs back.
On October 23 2010 20:46 bRuTaL!! wrote: xarthaz, that is exactly why IP is so important. Why do gamedevelopers have if they dont have IPs. Who is going to make expensive games if they cant get their development costs back.
Sorry, what are you arguing? Noone will buy the game if it is being shown on TV? Should you ask permission from Blizzard every single time you stream some of their games? It's not like there's a lot of money to be made from the scene and in addition, whoever wants to play the game WILL STILL HAVE TO BUY IT FIRST. Basically you are complaining about a gamecompany getting free advertising without specific consent.
People people, remember. It is Blizzard vs esports players. Who ownes the IP right over esport games. The players or the devs. They both spend a lot of effort in what they do. But if the court decides the rights belong to Blizzard the court says that esport players have no special talents of creativity that deserve protection. It basically denies the added value the esport player's intellect adds to the product. Esports can't work if there are Blizzard AI's fighting each other. So it is both technically wrong and morally wrong.
It is terrible for the players, who already are the weakest link in the whole esports industry. People seem to forget it's about this. Kespa sells MBC/OGN player rights.
On October 23 2010 20:46 bRuTaL!! wrote: xarthaz, that is exactly why IP is so important. Why do gamedevelopers have if they dont have IPs. Who is going to make expensive games if they cant get their development costs back.
Sorry, what are you arguing? Noone will buy the game if it is being shown on TV? Should you ask permission from Blizzard every single time you stream some of their games? It's not like there's a lot of money to be made from the scene and in addition, whoever wants to play the game WILL STILL HAVE TO BUY IT FIRST. Basically you are complaining about a gamecompany getting free advertising without specific consent.
No. Lol.
My point is, anytime a game is used in some kind of way for COMMERCIAL purposes, it should be discussed with the IP rights holder. Buying a game, doesnt give you a ownership over the game. You buy a license to privately play/use that game.
BW proscene has indeed boosted sales by alot. But in the end, Blizzard doesnt owe KeSPA etc anything. Koreans didnt "promote" BW for the sake of Blizzard, they did it because they got something out of for themselves. As a side effect, BW sales increased. Just because someone decided to do something for themselves and at the same time it resulted in me being better off, doesnt mean I owe them something.
Its a symbiosis. Blizzard developed a game for the Korean proscene that they could use as platform for a proscene and in exhange Blizzard got more sales. It worked as long as both got something out of it. Business works in a way that if you own something then you own everything it produces. Who is going to judge how much someone deserves profits for certain ideas or products? What Im trying to say is. Just because someone made a big profit out of something, it doesnt mean they dont deserve futher profits. People have become billionaires because theyve come up with rather simple ideas, while other work their whole life for pennies. So saying that 1. Blizzard owes Koreans something or 2. Blizzard shouldnt make anymore money because they already made alot, is FALSE.
Now SC2 has come out, and the relatively small sales of BW now a days is dwarfed by what SC2 could be. Thus the symbiosis has been broken. No longer is the current state beneficial for both parties.
No one read ELUA's. Not even lawyers. And normal people couldn't understand one if they did actually read it. It cannot be legally binding. You cannot have agreed to something you didn't read or couldn't understand. Especially not if you only read it after buying the game. I bought a disc from a shop. I made the buying contract there and then. I get a box with a disc from the shop and he gets no money. Blizzard isn't even a party. On it was SC BW. That's it. The license thing is irrelevant even if you accept it. It's not about licensing. It is about recognizing the IP rights of the players, who Kespa owns and sold to MBC.
No one that bought the game went into contract with Blizzard. Those ELUA's are written to undo the actual laws because they contradict each other. They are designed to strip customers of their law-given rights. They are meaningless. Especially outside the US. It should actually be illegal even to represent a customer with such an agreement.
And Blizzard doesn't even need ELUA's to get their royalties. The artists of the music they use in MSL/OSL/Proleague get their royalties. Blizzard should get the same ones. But they were offered a lot more. Plus the advertising that doubled their SC BW sales and made possible and hyped SC2.
Blizzard fucking suck they get free advertisement for like 10 years and now they bitch and whine about it. Sc2 really wouldn't have been as successful if korea hadn't kept sc1 alive for so long so imo there's no reason for mbc to pay blizz ..they've made money while promoting blizzards product. blizz doesn't lose money just gain money.. so yeah fucking retarded.
On October 23 2010 22:05 simme123 wrote: Blizzard fucking suck they get free advertisement for like 10 years and now they bitch and whine about it. Sc2 really wouldn't have been as successful if korea hadn't kept sc1 alive for so long so imo there's no reason for mbc to pay blizz ..they've made money while promoting blizzards product. blizz doesn't lose money just gain money.. so yeah fucking retarded.
i dont even know why the fuck i said something before. nvm ~
I really think this has alot more to do with setting up some kind of agreement or getting a legal decision to protect SC2 than blizzard trying to take over BW. Do you really think if SC2 began to overtake BW popularity in Korea that Kespa wouldn't just swap straight into SC2 leagues? Ofcourse they would if thats where the money is. In order for Blizzard to protect what it is doing/has planned for SC2 they would need to pursue any actions across all thier products equally or complications would be likely. Like everyone else in this thread though I am no law expert and probably haven't heard even 1% of the true events that have happened behind closed doors.
On October 23 2010 20:46 bRuTaL!! wrote: xarthaz, that is exactly why IP is so important. Why do gamedevelopers have if they dont have IPs. Who is going to make expensive games if they cant get their development costs back.
Taking abolishment of IP enforcement as a premise, industry would indeed have to adjust. But that would be for the better for consumers! That very service-style offering i was talking about, a business model would have to be designed to appeal to consumer preferring the service over increasing alternative opportunities.
It is exactly the same argument as allowing consumer preference to be the ultimate arbiter in the debate of protectionism vs free markets, whereas the protectionists are fear mongering, appealing to emotions of fright of the audience, trying to scare them away from their liberties.
On October 23 2010 20:46 bRuTaL!! wrote: xarthaz, that is exactly why IP is so important. Why do gamedevelopers have if they dont have IPs. Who is going to make expensive games if they cant get their development costs back.
Sorry, what are you arguing? Noone will buy the game if it is being shown on TV? Should you ask permission from Blizzard every single time you stream some of their games? It's not like there's a lot of money to be made from the scene and in addition, whoever wants to play the game WILL STILL HAVE TO BUY IT FIRST. Basically you are complaining about a gamecompany getting free advertising without specific consent.
No. Lol.
My point is, anytime a game is used in some kind of way for COMMERCIAL purposes, it should be discussed with the IP rights holder. Buying a game, doesnt give you a ownership over the game. You buy a license to privately play/use that game.
BW proscene has indeed boosted sales by alot. But in the end, Blizzard doesnt owe KeSPA etc anything. Koreans didnt "promote" BW for the sake of Blizzard, they did it because they got something out of for themselves. As a side effect, BW sales increased. Just because someone decided to do something for themselves and at the same time it resulted in me being better off, doesnt mean I owe them something.
Its a symbiosis. Blizzard developed a game for the Korean proscene that they could use as platform for a proscene and in exhange Blizzard got more sales. It worked as long as both got something out of it. Business works in a way that if you own something then you own everything it produces. Who is going to judge how much someone deserves profits for certain ideas or products? What Im trying to say is. Just because someone made a big profit out of something, it doesnt mean they dont deserve futher profits. People have become billionaires because theyve come up with rather simple ideas, while other work their whole life for pennies. So saying that 1. Blizzard owes Koreans something or 2. Blizzard shouldnt make anymore money because they already made alot, is FALSE.
Now SC2 has come out, and the relatively small sales of BW now a days is dwarfed by what SC2 could be. Thus the symbiosis has been broken. No longer is the current state beneficial for both parties.
Tell me something I don't know. For example, what that had to do with what you wrote before about there being no incentive for game developers if the IP rights aren't oppressive. I haven't said the 2 points you attempt to disprove. You do state their motives, which to me seem petty compared to what we might be about to lose. There most likely are some things you can do to a product that are non-beneficial to it, but hiring a hundred people to play it for at least a million people to spectate is not one of them.
No one read ELUA's. Not even lawyers. And normal people couldn't understand one if they did actually read it. It cannot be legally binding. You cannot have agreed to something you didn't read or couldn't understand. Especially not if you only read it after buying the game. I bought a disc from a shop. I made the buying contract there and then. I get a box with a disc from the shop and he gets no money. Blizzard isn't even a party. On it was SC BW. That's it. The license thing is irrelevant even if you accept it. It's not about licensing. It is about recognizing the IP rights of the players, who Kespa owns and sold to MBC.
No one that bought the game went into contract with Blizzard. Those ELUA's are written to undo the actual laws because they contradict each other. They are designed to strip customers of their law-given rights. They are meaningless. Especially outside the US. It should actually be illegal even to represent a customer with such an agreement.
And Blizzard doesn't even need ELUA's to get their royalties. The artists of the music they use in MSL/OSL/Proleague get their royalties. Blizzard should get the same ones. But they were offered a lot more. Plus the advertising that doubled their SC BW sales and made possible and hyped SC2.
Not knowing isnt an excuse in court. Quoting from Wikipedia
Ignorantia juris non excusat or Ignorantia legis neminem excusat is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content.
And in this case isnt about normal people but big corporations so saying "we didnt read it" isnt going to hold much water. Now this not automatically mean that EULA is binding. It has to be reasonable and I bet in Blizzard case it probably is pretty much a copy of an industry standard EULA for games that has held in court previously. If this was a western country, Blizzard would have this 100%. But this isnt. Its a different culture. Still, being a civilized and a developed country, this case will most likely be won by Blizzard.
I dont quite understand what you mean or refer to with "Those ELUA's are written to undo the actual laws because they contradict each other. They are designed to strip customers of their law-given rights. They are meaningless." Sometimes EULAs cannot be enforced because they are unreasonable. But a clause saying that "you dont own this game" isnt unreasonable after all the value of that game is 100 million+ and you just bought it for $50.
On October 23 2010 22:30 Ftrunkz wrote: God why didnt ogn/mbc agree to broadcasting some GSL games and just make pro-league 1 game/week for the teams? This is going to get so ugly T_T
Look at the terms Blizzard offered KeSPA. Do you think they really would have made it more reasonable for the broadcasting companies(which includes KeSPA)?
On October 23 2010 22:30 Ftrunkz wrote: God why didnt ogn/mbc agree to broadcasting some GSL games and just make pro-league 1 game/week for the teams? This is going to get so ugly T_T
Probably because ShinHan wouldn't agree to that, I assume.
It's not an issue of not knowing. It is an issue of not having an agreement. And yes, those ELUA's are written to strip customer rights. The most absurd stuff in in there.
You tell me how you can have agreed with something you didn't read? That's no an issue of not knowing the law you violated not being an excuse. Blizzard will claim they had an ELUA but the customer didn't even know what this agreement proposed by Blizzard was. Yet alone agree to it.
As for IP rights. They already don't exist anymore. If they aren't enforced then you don't have them. IP rights are constantly being violated without punishment. The PC gaming industry doesn't need to adjust at all to what it would mean if they didn't have an IP right at all. They already have.
Now IP rights were silly idea to being with. But corporations took it way way too far. They even claimed IP ownership over human genes. No one respects them. Even the people here that argue they are in favour of them don't always respect IP rights.
If it happens to be the case that without IP rights no one will develop any medicine or games or music anymore then that is a problem for which is needed a new solution. IP rights as a whole cannot survive as long as they cannot be enforced. And when people that grew up with twitter and torrent from age 7 take up all the big positions in society then IP rights will be no longer. Not just because they aren't just or fair or productive but because they cannot be enforced and have become meaningless rights.
And this is about the IP rights of the esports player. They went into contract with Kespa and that is what Kespa sold to MBC/OGN. If Blizzard owns the rights to the IP created by esports players, then esports is gone. Why invest money in a player whose product is automatically property to a third party?
On October 23 2010 22:30 Ftrunkz wrote: God why didnt ogn/mbc agree to broadcasting some GSL games and just make pro-league 1 game/week for the teams? This is going to get so ugly T_T
You're talking about cutting airtime for some major sponsors/team owners. The main benefit of companies like SKT/Samsung running teams is that their companies get advertising when proleague is on air. Totally defeats the purpose of owning a proteam if it's only one game a week. And I can tell you that many BW fans would be very annoyed with only 1 game a week as well.
Broadcasting GSL also means entering into a contract with Gretech/Blizzard. No way that was ever going to happen.
On October 23 2010 22:26 xarthaz wrote: Taking abolishment of IP enforcement as a premise, industry would indeed have to adjust. But that would be for the better for consumers! That very service-style offering i was talking about, a business model would have to be designed to appeal to consumer preferring the service over increasing alternative opportunities.
It is exactly the same argument as allowing consumer preference to be the ultimate arbiter in the debate of protectionism vs free markets, whereas the protectionists are fear mongering, appealing to emotions of fright of the audience, trying to scare them away from their liberties.
IP enforcement can be achieved by either law or by changing the product. So if the company cant enforce their IP through courts they ill either not make it available at all or change the product. For example, SC2 cant be played in LAN. I wonder why, might have something to do with piracy or the whole ordeal in Korea... Same goes for copyprotection for music or DVD areas. Im struggling to see how making IP rights enforcement harder will benefit consumers. Either the product will be inferior or it wont be released at all (simplified scenario). Maybe you mean something like Steam?
On October 23 2010 22:34 mustaju wrote:
Tell me something I don't know. For example, what that had to do with what you wrote before about there being no incentive for game developers if the IP rights aren't oppressive. I haven't said the 2 points you attempt to disprove. You do state their motives, which to me seem petty compared to what we might be about to lose. There most likely are some things you can do to a product that are non-beneficial to it, but hiring a hundred people to play it for at least a million people to spectate is not one of them.
Mustaju, my first paragraph was directed at you. Rest was towards the thread in general. Id argue thought that competition for your own product is harmful (BW vs SC2 tournaments). Blizzard didnt really do anything before now simply becuase of the reasons I already stated, they got sales of their game. Now BW scene is conflicting with their own projects and Blizzard simply wants either money to offset the damages BW does to SC2 or the end of BW tournaments. Whether this is right or wrong, is NOT my point. Simply telling both sides of the story.
I hope seriously that Blizzard loses. E-Sports would be a different, worse thing if a company had a total and complete monopoly on tournament and league play. It would happen the thing that happens everytime someone has a monopoly, it would be about 100 times worse than what a free market would produce.
:\ Rather than internet lawyers arguing over whats right or wrong I really would like just more information about the subject in general. I posted links to 4 Fomos articles about 10 pages back that may give more information as to what is really going on and I think it'd be awesome if someone who spoke/read Korean could translate it for the rest of us. >:
I've feared this day ever since the IRC channel exploded upon hearing "Hell it's about time" This is why I never bought sc2, would have felt soo shitty if i had.
As much as I don't think it will happen I really hope blizzard loses completely and totally. Watching brood war is one of my hobbies and it would be really sad to see the scene get killed of.
On October 23 2010 23:08 Fenrax wrote: I hope seriously that Blizzard loses. E-Sports would be a different, worse thing if a company had a total and complete monopoly on tournament and league play. It would happen the thing that happens everytime someone has a monopoly, it would be about 100 times worse than what a free market would produce.
On October 23 2010 23:08 Fenrax wrote: I hope seriously that Blizzard loses. E-Sports would be a different, worse thing if a company had a total and complete monopoly on tournament and league play. It would happen the thing that happens everytime someone has a monopoly, it would be about 100 times worse than what a free market would produce.
So Kespa didn't have a monopoly? Lol.
KeSPA consists of many unrelated companies, two broadcasting TVs and more. KeSPA also has no levarage in other countries.
I don't see how they're supposedly a monopoly (don't mention the gomtv thing - their league ran just fine for couple seasons until they teamed up with blizzard). You can't seriously compare KeSPA's influence to blizzard getting the total control of the entire esport scene as far as their games go. ;;
On October 23 2010 23:08 Fenrax wrote: I hope seriously that Blizzard loses. E-Sports would be a different, worse thing if a company had a total and complete monopoly on tournament and league play. It would happen the thing that happens everytime someone has a monopoly, it would be about 100 times worse than what a free market would produce.
So Kespa didn't have a monopoly? Lol.
KeSPA consists of many unrelated companies, two broadcasting TVs and more. KeSPA also has no levarage in other countries.
I don't see how they're supposedly a monopoly (don't mention the gomtv thing - their league ran just fine for couple seasons until they teamed up with blizzard). You can't seriously compare KeSPA's influence to blizzard getting the total control of the entire esport scene as far as their games go. ;;
I was thinking the same thing. Every sport has organizers around it. What the heck you think the NBA, NHL and MLB are? Like seriously. Only thing Korean Brood War is missing is a player association, which really shouldn't be that hard to pull off. It's a culture thing though. The players over there are used to getting the short-end of the stick and I'd like to see them stand-up for their own rights for once. For example, KeSPA trying to downplay player ceremonies. It has good entertainment value and let's the players show some personality. It was a stupid move on KeSPA's part to get rid of it because it created a lot of interesting rivalries. Korean culture :/
On October 23 2010 21:58 Meriones wrote: No one read ELUA's. Not even lawyers.
Heh, funny one.
Companies have lawyers that read them.
As for the rest of your post, you make it sound like the only reson you bought Starcraft 1 and 2 was because of the korean scene which I highly doubt.
A gamer who is a lawyer doesn't read ELAU's. What company really needs to read the ELUA of SC or SC2?
Koreans bought SC BW because of esports. That's why a tiny 60 million country bought 6 million copies. That's half of all the sales made by 1% of the world population. When I bought SC and BW there were no esports, obviously, because I bought at release date.
Kespa only has a monopoly over the players their invested in, trained and pay. It's like saying Barcelona has a monompoly on the single best football player in the world because they have Messi.
Also, every sport needs a global sports federation. Esports needs one desperately. Kespa is the first step. What we need now is NA and Europe to copy it and then join together in a world wide esports federation.
everyone in this thread thinks their so clever it's not even funny
Edit: what I mean is the conspiracy theorys, praising KeSPA for some reason, telling that blizzard/kespa will win when in reality you don't know anything what's going to happen
Tell me something I don't know. For example, what that had to do with what you wrote before about there being no incentive for game developers if the IP rights aren't oppressive. I haven't said the 2 points you attempt to disprove. You do state their motives, which to me seem petty compared to what we might be about to lose. There most likely are some things you can do to a product that are non-beneficial to it, but hiring a hundred people to play it for at least a million people to spectate is not one of them.
Mustaju, my first paragraph was directed at you. Rest was towards the thread in general. Id argue thought that competition for your own product is harmful (BW vs SC2 tournaments). Blizzard didnt really do anything before now simply becuase of the reasons I already stated, they got sales of their game. Now BW scene is conflicting with their own projects and Blizzard simply wants either money to offset the damages BW does to SC2 or the end of BW tournaments. Whether this is right or wrong, is NOT my point. Simply telling both sides of the story.
That still doesn't answer my original question. Why do you think there is no incentive for companies to develop high cost games that can be used in tournaments(which run solely on sponsorship money)? This should be every companies dream, even when they don't have control over EVERY SINGLE THING the players/community do.
EDIT:
On October 24 2010 00:02 AyJay wrote: everyone in this thread thinks their so clever it's not even funny
And you are one of the worst offenders in every single thread I've seen you post in.
On October 23 2010 22:26 xarthaz wrote: Taking abolishment of IP enforcement as a premise, industry would indeed have to adjust. But that would be for the better for consumers! That very service-style offering i was talking about, a business model would have to be designed to appeal to consumer preferring the service over increasing alternative opportunities.
It is exactly the same argument as allowing consumer preference to be the ultimate arbiter in the debate of protectionism vs free markets, whereas the protectionists are fear mongering, appealing to emotions of fright of the audience, trying to scare them away from their liberties.
IP enforcement can be achieved by either law or by changing the product. So if the company cant enforce their IP through courts they ill either not make it available at all or change the product. For example, SC2 cant be played in LAN. I wonder why, might have something to do with piracy or the whole ordeal in Korea... Same goes for copyprotection for music or DVD areas. Im struggling to see how making IP rights enforcement harder will benefit consumers. Either the product will be inferior or it wont be released at all (simplified scenario). Maybe you mean something like Steam?
You misunderstood me, my whole point was about specilation over a world without IP enforcement.
The benefit of abolishing IP is defined by decreased opportunity cost of gaming-related actions by consumers, given abolisment of IP. The artificially-created costs related to non-scarce ends are eliminated, meaning capital can be used for production of scarce ends. Non-scarce ends do not disappear when their artificial scarcity is eliminated, all that disappears is the cost. This in sharp contrast with scarce ends, which require cost to maintain. Because of this, abolishing IP implies elimination of capital waste investments.
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player.(A.) It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game(B.) (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
I highlighted the main thrust; you guys are both wrong. (Yes I have read the whole thread, and I read the entirety of the ruling cited. Big thanks btw! Edifying.)
(A.) I agree that it's legally stupid if a game company owns all the gameplay that results from the game, especially if a game designed specifically for deeply unpredictable emergent gameplay is studied and mastered by devoted players. I don't think current pros think about it in terms of IP when they play, though. They think about it like an athlete. In a sense, whichever team owns the athlete owns their play. And league organizations have historically had free reign to dictate terms to member teams of their sport. No one ever invented sports though obviously, in an IP sense. Anyway that's not what Blizzard is suing; I would assume their legal strategy will be typical, not imaginative.
(B.) That wasn't indicated at all in the ruling. They talked about the arguments set forth, and about the criteria for copyright. This didn't include "all the gameplay", but one of Kaufman's arguments was that the gameplay is different always despite the AV; the judges correctly saw this as bullshit, and the AV copyright was the point anyway.
What you guys have brought up though is SUPER INTERESTING and completely unlitigated, as far as I can tell. Gedanken: what if soccer never existed, then someone thought it up and turned it into the global success it is now. Do players create IP just by play? Would a hypothetical FIFA have a right to adjust the rules, or is that infringement of the original design, by way of a knockoff essentially?
This player IP question is not about the developers as a whole. All the artists and programmers obviously get their shit copyrighted. It's about game design and how much a designer owns the (mostly unpredetermined) gameplay that results from player actions. I am highly fascinated.
(I don't think the court case we're discussing will go deeply in this direction though.)
On October 23 2010 12:52 TheStupidOne wrote: So wait... Blizzard gave the rights to Gretech for SC in Korea, Gretech last week decided to play nice and let PL continue and now Blizzard is sidestepping Gretech altogether and just directly suing? Am I getting this right?
Has the world gone completely insane?
Back on topic... can someone knowledgeable answer this (2.)?
Thanks for reading the case and the thoughtful response. I see now I was misstating the case and simplifying it too much. I went back and read the case again, this time not relying on my crappy notes.
My interpretation of the case is a little different than yours. The issue isn't whether all gameplay is copyrightable (like I initially erroneously suggested), but whether the fact that the player can affect the audiovisual work (through gameplay) can withdraw the audiovisuals from copyright eligibility. The answer is no, as there are always enough consistent elements in a game, that come from the code, to make the audiovisual of the game copyrightable.
Once that is established, the game company will now have exclusive rights over the broadcasting of the audiovisual of its work. Your question, whether the developers can own the gameplay is basically moot. You can't separate the gameplay from the audiovisuals you see (graphics and sounds).
I'm really hard-pressed to imagine a game that is all gameplay and contains no graphics and sounds (by its nature all games must contain some sort of graphics and/or sound). This gives game designers the ability to copyright those graphics and sounds. In effect, the game designer owns exclusive broadcasting rights (among other rights) to all games with graphics and sounds.
Will be interesting to see if any new information is gained once this lawsuit comes into play. Wondering what exactly blizzard is going to say, along with the defendents. Then we can finally get some hard facts on each side instead of speculation.
Its sad how blizzard just got in the bandwagon just to push Kespa out of it. SouthKorea is Starcraft Broodwar, Starcraft Broodwar is SouthKorea... deal with it.
On October 23 2010 23:10 xBillehx wrote: :\ Rather than internet lawyers arguing over whats right or wrong I really would like just more information about the subject in general. I posted links to 4 Fomos articles about 10 pages back that may give more information as to what is really going on and I think it'd be awesome if someone who spoke/read Korean could translate it for the rest of us. >:
Can anyone please translate or at the very least see if there's something new/different in these articles than the one from the OP?
It's true that knowledge of Korean is more useful than internet lawyering right now, but most of us don't know Korean so we are stuck with speculating blindly. If some Korean speaker can come clear things up it'd be awesome (if there is anything to clear up that is).
I just wish both Blizzard and KeSPA could stop their scortched earth policy. Both are extremely unwilling to share competitive market and it's killing the players and the audience.
On October 24 2010 00:33 Varth wrote: Will be interesting to see if any new information is gained once this lawsuit comes into play. Wondering what exactly blizzard is going to say, along with the defendents. Then we can finally get some hard facts on each side instead of speculation.
Coming from a SC2 perspective, my secret desire is to see SC1 die so that Flash, Jaedong et al. can switch to SC2.
Having said that , its hard not to respect what KeSPA has done for the systematic growth of SC1.I just wish that they would reach an amicable resolution. Perhaps one day we could see players of both games having no restrictions at entering any tournament that they wanted.
Just a pipe dream, pity it will never become true.
The threatment gomtv received in their third season makes it hard for me to get any sympathy for the current broodwar scene, perhaps if they didnt brute force the competion out back then things wouldnt be this bad now.
On October 23 2010 17:59 meRz wrote: I'm surprised that so many people are blindly supporting kespa. KeSPA has done some shady and questionable things under their "time" and I don't see the moral issue here. Blizzard made both games, as most of you have mentioned, none of us are read up on Korean Law about IP rights, but I have a hard time seeing how they'd have vastly different views on IP than pretty much any other country out there.
Legally Blizzard SHOULD be fine. "Should" because again, I'm not very well ready in korean law. Also KeSPA has been douches for such a long time, none of you remember the shit they pulled during the GomTV SC/BW leagues? I'm all for Blizzard in this one, take it to court!
Yeah, let's support the fatass corporation suying the non-profit organization so that they stop an 10 years activity so that the big fatass corporation can make more money on their new product regardless its (mediocre) quality.
Makes perfect sense.
I don't think Kespa is great. But they are the one who made esport, who made the success of BW (and in fact, in a way, of SC2), and they deserve huge credit for that.
If chess was invented today we would have to play royalties for holding a tournament. I hope one day people realize that the notion of intellectual property has been pusehd to an extent that it is completely fucked up.
calling kespa a non-profit is disingenuous at the least, verging on deceipt. this isn't the ymca, it's just a consortium of for-profit companies who get together to arbitrate and discuss things that are of common interest and benefit to them
at any rate, it sucks to see this happen. i'd still watch a proleague match from time to time for nostalgia
On October 23 2010 23:08 Fenrax wrote: I hope seriously that Blizzard loses. E-Sports would be a different, worse thing if a company had a total and complete monopoly on tournament and league play. It would happen the thing that happens everytime someone has a monopoly, it would be about 100 times worse than what a free market would produce.
So Kespa didn't have a monopoly? Lol.
KeSPA consists of many unrelated companies, two broadcasting TVs and more. KeSPA also has no levarage in other countries.
I don't see how they're supposedly a monopoly (don't mention the gomtv thing - their league ran just fine for couple seasons until they teamed up with blizzard). You can't seriously compare KeSPA's influence to blizzard getting the total control of the entire esport scene as far as their games go. ;;
Even if you mention the GOM thing its irrelevant. You are free to start your own BW scene in korea with your own teams, own sponsors, own players and do whatever you like and KeSPA has no authority over it. But when you want KeSPA paid players in your tournaments for nothing in return, while you are planning to directly undermine KeSPA by teaming with Blizzard, is it surprising they have a problem with it? If i was a progame coach why would i want my gamers practicing for this league? The GOM leagues were just unnecessary and the only reason there's any western support for them is because of the fact there were english commentators.
I haven't read much of the thread aside from the op post, but it makes me wonder.
Why does MBC/possibly OGN have to listen to foreign companies? Can't they just tell them to fuck off, this is south korea, and we don't really give a shit if you want to sue us? Are the SK police going to arrest them and send them off to an American prison? I would imagine the SK government might be more interested in collecting tax from broadcasting studios than bending over and letting foreign powers tell them how to run their police system.
I can understand that maybe the SK government wouldn't want to tarnish their reputation, but it seems brood war has become part of their culture. I know it's become part of mine, as I watch quite a few proleague broadcasts. Sure, they could get new companies to broadcast the games, but don't OGN and MBC directly sponsor some tournaments? I don't know how many people would be willing to do so in SK.
I can't help but think at some deep level, MBC/possibly OGN will lose the case but nothing will happen because of it. It's not like America is going to declare war on them just because they're refusing to PAY FOREIGNERS to continue their culture. That sounds like some serious imperialistic bullshit to me.
On October 24 2010 03:45 tommya wrote: I haven't read much of the thread aside from the op post, but it makes me wonder.
Why does MBC/possibly OGN have to listen to foreign companies? Can't they just tell them to fuck off, this is south korea, and we don't really give a shit if you want to sue us? Are the SK police going to arrest them and send them off to an American prison? I would imagine the SK government might be more interested in collecting tax from broadcasting studios than bending over and letting foreign powers tell them how to run their police system.
I can understand that maybe the SK government wouldn't want to tarnish their reputation, but it seems brood war has become part of their culture. I know it's become part of mine, as I watch quite a few proleague broadcasts. Sure, they could get new companies to broadcast the games, but don't OGN and MBC directly sponsor some tournaments? I don't know how many people would be willing to do so in SK.
I can't help but think at some deep level, MBC/possibly OGN will lose the case but nothing will happen because of it. It's not like America is going to declare war on them just because they're refusing to PAY FOREIGNERS to continue their culture. That sounds like some serious imperialistic bullshit to me.
Can someone explain why I'm wrong?
Not reading anything on the matter, and then spending THAT big of a thread on pointing out things that are completely wrong, is a waste of time. Next time, READ.
For one, Blizzard owns the rights to the game. For two, Blizzard put Gretech (korean) in charge of their broadcasting rights, merely because KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms. For three, South Korea is not in some judicial stone age - if they lose, the consequences will be severe.
They want to crush SC1 esport scene assuming all the people that were die hard for SC1 will immediately turn over and want to watch SC2, but I really don't feel that will be the case at least not for awhile. Though, BW was a 10year old game so I guess it has time.
On October 23 2010 10:22 Meriones wrote: The big question for the court is: Does the IP rights to an esports match belong to the players playing the game or to the devs of the game?
This is obviously not about the power of kespa. It is about the power of the player.(A.) It is fundamentally the players IP rights Blizzard is suing. SC BW players put in a tremendous effort to develop an exceptional skill at playing games people want to watch. They spend much much more time than Blizzard devs. If the court rules that the player has no role in the creation of this IP then that is a major blow for esports players.
Broadcasting channels/websites have no real problem. They can broadcast cheaply and get ad money. The player has to try to make a living. He can't if what he works so hard for is automatically owned by Blizzard.
I have no idea what Korean IP law is like, but under U.S. law it's settled that the gaming company has a copyright in all the gameplay that is created from the game(B.) (it's sad that the case law on this was developed by old ass judges who have no idea what the gaming industry is like, but whatever). I hope this isn't the case in Korea but I'm not optimistic.
Edit: if anyone is interested the case that illustrates U.S. law on this subject is Stern Electronics v. Kaufman, 669 F.2d 852 (2nd Cir. 1982).
I highlighted the main thrust; you guys are both wrong. (Yes I have read the whole thread, and I read the entirety of the ruling cited. Big thanks btw! Edifying.)
(A.) I agree that it's legally stupid if a game company owns all the gameplay that results from the game, especially if a game designed specifically for deeply unpredictable emergent gameplay is studied and mastered by devoted players. I don't think current pros think about it in terms of IP when they play, though. They think about it like an athlete. In a sense, whichever team owns the athlete owns their play. And league organizations have historically had free reign to dictate terms to member teams of their sport. No one ever invented sports though obviously, in an IP sense. Anyway that's not what Blizzard is suing; I would assume their legal strategy will be typical, not imaginative.
(B.) That wasn't indicated at all in the ruling. They talked about the arguments set forth, and about the criteria for copyright. This didn't include "all the gameplay", but one of Kaufman's arguments was that the gameplay is different always despite the AV; the judges correctly saw this as bullshit, and the AV copyright was the point anyway.
What you guys have brought up though is SUPER INTERESTING and completely unlitigated, as far as I can tell. Gedanken: what if soccer never existed, then someone thought it up and turned it into the global success it is now. Do players create IP just by play? Would a hypothetical FIFA have a right to adjust the rules, or is that infringement of the original design, by way of a knockoff essentially?
This player IP question is not about the developers as a whole. All the artists and programmers obviously get their shit copyrighted. It's about game design and how much a designer owns the (mostly unpredetermined) gameplay that results from player actions. I am highly fascinated.
(I don't think the court case we're discussing will go deeply in this direction though.)
On October 23 2010 12:52 TheStupidOne wrote: So wait... Blizzard gave the rights to Gretech for SC in Korea, Gretech last week decided to play nice and let PL continue and now Blizzard is sidestepping Gretech altogether and just directly suing? Am I getting this right?
Has the world gone completely insane?
Back on topic... can someone knowledgeable answer this (2.)?
Thanks for reading the case and the thoughtful response. I see now I was misstating the case and simplifying it too much. I went back and read the case again, this time not relying on my crappy notes.
My interpretation of the case is a little different than yours. The issue isn't whether all gameplay is copyrightable (like I initially erroneously suggested), but whether the fact that the player can affect the audiovisual work (through gameplay) can withdraw the audiovisuals from copyright eligibility. The answer is no, as there are always enough consistent elements in a game, that come from the code, to make the audiovisual of the game copyrightable.
*Once that is established, the game company will now have exclusive rights over the broadcasting of the audiovisual of its work. Your question, whether the developers can own the gameplay is basically moot. You can't separate the gameplay from the audiovisuals you see (graphics and sounds).
**I'm really hard-pressed to imagine a game that is all gameplay and contains no graphics and sounds (by its nature all games must contain some sort of graphics and/or sound). This gives game designers the ability to copyright those graphics and sounds. In effect, the game designer owns exclusive broadcasting rights (among other rights) to all games with graphics and sounds.
First of all: Xarthaz, you clearly have a big ideological slant. There's a big problem with your position: there's little incentive for innovation--so called "non scarce" ideas, theories, design--in a world where research and development is unprotected. Nothing drastic social/political/cultural change couldn't solve, but still.
Re: Stern vs Kaufman...
I pretty much agree with the interpretation you've articulated, and I definitely agree with the outcome of the case and how it casts the law. It seems like the judiciary did a great job understanding the salient aspects of the technology; however, they were dealing with arcade games. Fundamentally videogames are no different today, but there are important differences of scale, I guess you could say. My upcoming point also relies on a philosophical distinction that is currently unresolved.
All videogames (and, in general, the broader set of commercially designed games) are necessarily mathematical constructs, because they are played on a computer. The AV is part of the communication with the player, to give them information about the state of the abstract system in which they are cavorting. It also functions to contextualize the gameplay and make it accessible, e.g. Wolfenstein is about shooting Nazis, not arranging nodes in a bounded 2d space throughout time. The philosophical question is, how much of a game is the system, and how much is the dressing? I wish I could link to info but I'll leave it at that and trust that interested readers can dig up material.
SCRAMBLE was on arcade machines that had AV hardcoded into the game, not like today where an engine is provided with myriad AV data to display, produced by artists who "skin" the abstract system that designers create and engineers build. This is why the arguments are about what AV is displayed. The pirates didn't even bother to reskin the design. But think of all the donkey kong ripoffs. There are a million stupid platformers with basically identical mechanics, but different AV. What would happen if one took another to court?
So, about *. I think no matter the time period, the AV is copyright and should be. Hence, any broadcast of it requires licensing. While I can't think of a situation where it would be argued, I believe a player could contest the fact that the developer owns any resultant gameplay. A car manufacturer doesn't own the experience of driving around. This line of thought has weird implications for ripoffs though. What if I made Halo but changed all the AV? Illegal? What if I tweak the mechanics a little? Still illegal? That's basically most generic console shooters for the last 5 years. No one sues each other over mechanics in the current developer culture though.
A game's owner can rightly ask for whatever licensing dues they want for broadcast, and since the gameplay can't be decoupled from the AV, it functionally licenses the playing. But I posit: technically the gameplay broadcasted is not part of that legal/business interaction, and the IP law is unclear on this, and certainly has never been litigated.
About **. Granted. But this is why I'm really interested in the fact that the law sees a game as an essentially static AV "copy". You could view it as a library of AV. But obviously games are about the interactivity, which is an abstract design which almost always has unforeseen play characteristics, and the law says nothing about that IP element. Right now the Blizzard EULA says they own the gameplay (like any replays are their property). How can that wholly be?
On October 24 2010 03:45 tommya wrote: I haven't read much of the thread aside from the op post, but it makes me wonder.
Why does MBC/possibly OGN have to listen to foreign companies? Can't they just tell them to fuck off, this is south korea, and we don't really give a shit if you want to sue us? Are the SK police going to arrest them and send them off to an American prison? I would imagine the SK government might be more interested in collecting tax from broadcasting studios than bending over and letting foreign powers tell them how to run their police system.
I can understand that maybe the SK government wouldn't want to tarnish their reputation, but it seems brood war has become part of their culture. I know it's become part of mine, as I watch quite a few proleague broadcasts. Sure, they could get new companies to broadcast the games, but don't OGN and MBC directly sponsor some tournaments? I don't know how many people would be willing to do so in SK.
I can't help but think at some deep level, MBC/possibly OGN will lose the case but nothing will happen because of it. It's not like America is going to declare war on them just because they're refusing to PAY FOREIGNERS to continue their culture. That sounds like some serious imperialistic bullshit to me.
Can someone explain why I'm wrong?
Not reading anything on the matter, and then spending THAT big of a thread on pointing out things that are completely wrong, is a waste of time. Next time, READ.
For one, Blizzard owns the rights to the game. For two, Blizzard put Gretech (korean) in charge of their broadcasting rights, merely because KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms. For three, South Korea is not in some judicial stone age - if they lose, the consequences will be severe.
Alright, I think you missed my point.
Sure, Blizzard owns the game, they created it. Sounds good and fair so far. They're stating that unless you pay royalties, you cannot broadcast it. Blizzard is a game making company (or at least it was, before they beaome a "shit making" company) not a warring state. Blizzard is stating that no, you may have a large business based around our product, but you have to completely change your business to either pay us or disband. Why should MBC listen?
Imagine you live in America. Imagine America isn't a big, strong superpower... imagine it is relatively weak. If some other country, for example Great Britain invaded and said "you guys can't drink tea, you guys have to pay us tax, and you guys cannot have any large broadcasting stations containing ANYTHING made in our country of Great Britain." Would that go over well? No, that would be warmongering / international bullying.
In response to your second point, Gretech might be in charge of Blizzard's broadcasting rights. Imagine if in my previous example, they selected a few Americans to be tax collectors and law enforcers for Great Britain. Does that change anything?
I don't exactly understand what you mean by your third point, so I cannot make a reply that accurately contains my opinion. Please explain it, so our debate may continue.
Why can't MBC sue Gretech for harassing their broadcasting / threatening their business' prosperity? Better yet, why do courts who have to deal murder, rape, arson, and crime in general care about two gaming companies having a fit with each other over unclear "IP rights?"
On October 24 2010 03:45 tommya wrote: I haven't read much of the thread aside from the op post, but it makes me wonder.
Why does MBC/possibly OGN have to listen to foreign companies? Can't they just tell them to fuck off, this is south korea, and we don't really give a shit if you want to sue us? Are the SK police going to arrest them and send them off to an American prison? I would imagine the SK government might be more interested in collecting tax from broadcasting studios than bending over and letting foreign powers tell them how to run their police system.
I can understand that maybe the SK government wouldn't want to tarnish their reputation, but it seems brood war has become part of their culture. I know it's become part of mine, as I watch quite a few proleague broadcasts. Sure, they could get new companies to broadcast the games, but don't OGN and MBC directly sponsor some tournaments? I don't know how many people would be willing to do so in SK.
I can't help but think at some deep level, MBC/possibly OGN will lose the case but nothing will happen because of it. It's not like America is going to declare war on them just because they're refusing to PAY FOREIGNERS to continue their culture. That sounds like some serious imperialistic bullshit to me.
Can someone explain why I'm wrong?
Not reading anything on the matter, and then spending THAT big of a thread on pointing out things that are completely wrong, is a waste of time. Next time, READ.
For one, Blizzard owns the rights to the game. For two, Blizzard put Gretech (korean) in charge of their broadcasting rights, merely because KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms. For three, South Korea is not in some judicial stone age - if they lose, the consequences will be severe.
Alright, I think you missed my point.
Sure, Blizzard owns the game, they created it. Sounds good and fair so far. They're stating that unless you pay royalties, you cannot broadcast it. Blizzard is a game making company (or at least it was, before they beaome a "shit making" company) not a warring state. Blizzard is stating that no, you may have a large business based around our product, but you have to completely change your business to either pay us or disband. Why should MBC listen?
Imagine you live in America. Imagine America isn't a big, strong superpower... imagine it is relatively weak. If some other country, for example Great Britain invaded and said "you guys can't drink tea, you guys have to pay us tax, and you guys cannot have any large broadcasting stations containing ANYTHING made in our country of Great Britain." Would that go over well? No, that would be warmongering / international bullying.
In response to your second point, Gretech might be in charge of Blizzard's broadcasting rights. Imagine if in my previous example, they selected a few Americans to be tax collectors and law enforcers for Great Britain. Does that change anything?
I don't exactly understand what you mean by your third point, so I cannot make a reply that accurately contains my opinion. Please explain it, so our debate may continue.
Why can't MBC sue Gretech for harassing their broadcasting / threatening their business' prosperity? Better yet, why do courts who have to deal murder, rape, arson, and crime in general care about two gaming companies having a fit with each other over unclear "IP rights?"
It's not a "debate" - you're asking about things that have been discussed in great detail already, and making assumptions about things that have already been discussed/dismissed. You agree to the terms set by Blizzard in order to install the game. One of those terms is specifically that you do not OWN the game, or it's content - you are licensing it. You require a license in order to use it for anything but personal use. While your example is absolutely terrible, if "Great Britain" had a product with a license agreement, and you broke that agreement, you would be on the business end of an international lawsuit.
Your MBC harassment lawsuit question points to either a lack of knowledge of the situation, law in general, or that you're trolling. I'm going to assume a troll, but in case you aren't, you really need to READ these threads before you post.
I just have one question: are Koreans bothered at all by these implications in these threads that their country is hopelessly corrupt/old-fashioned/stupid/insane? People keep saying things like 'it's SK can't they just kick them out', and it seems insulting to both sides (as well as to an entire country).
On October 24 2010 03:45 tommya wrote: I haven't read much of the thread aside from the op post, but it makes me wonder.
Why does MBC/possibly OGN have to listen to foreign companies? Can't they just tell them to fuck off, this is south korea, and we don't really give a shit if you want to sue us? Are the SK police going to arrest them and send them off to an American prison? I would imagine the SK government might be more interested in collecting tax from broadcasting studios than bending over and letting foreign powers tell them how to run their police system.
I can understand that maybe the SK government wouldn't want to tarnish their reputation, but it seems brood war has become part of their culture. I know it's become part of mine, as I watch quite a few proleague broadcasts. Sure, they could get new companies to broadcast the games, but don't OGN and MBC directly sponsor some tournaments? I don't know how many people would be willing to do so in SK.
I can't help but think at some deep level, MBC/possibly OGN will lose the case but nothing will happen because of it. It's not like America is going to declare war on them just because they're refusing to PAY FOREIGNERS to continue their culture. That sounds like some serious imperialistic bullshit to me.
Can someone explain why I'm wrong?
Not reading anything on the matter, and then spending THAT big of a thread on pointing out things that are completely wrong, is a waste of time. Next time, READ.
For one, Blizzard owns the rights to the game. For two, Blizzard put Gretech (korean) in charge of their broadcasting rights, merely because KeSPA wouldn't accept the terms. For three, South Korea is not in some judicial stone age - if they lose, the consequences will be severe.
Alright, I think you missed my point.
Sure, Blizzard owns the game, they created it. Sounds good and fair so far. They're stating that unless you pay royalties, you cannot broadcast it. Blizzard is a game making company (or at least it was, before they beaome a "shit making" company) not a warring state. Blizzard is stating that no, you may have a large business based around our product, but you have to completely change your business to either pay us or disband. Why should MBC listen?
Imagine you live in America. Imagine America isn't a big, strong superpower... imagine it is relatively weak. If some other country, for example Great Britain invaded and said "you guys can't drink tea, you guys have to pay us tax, and you guys cannot have any large broadcasting stations containing ANYTHING made in our country of Great Britain." Would that go over well? No, that would be warmongering / international bullying.
In response to your second point, Gretech might be in charge of Blizzard's broadcasting rights. Imagine if in my previous example, they selected a few Americans to be tax collectors and law enforcers for Great Britain. Does that change anything?
I don't exactly understand what you mean by your third point, so I cannot make a reply that accurately contains my opinion. Please explain it, so our debate may continue.
Why can't MBC sue Gretech for harassing their broadcasting / threatening their business' prosperity? Better yet, why do courts who have to deal murder, rape, arson, and crime in general care about two gaming companies having a fit with each other over unclear "IP rights?"
It's not a "debate" - you're asking about things that have been discussed in great detail already, and making assumptions about things that have already been discussed/dismissed. You agree to the terms set by Blizzard in order to install the game. One of those terms is specifically that you do not OWN the game, or it's content - you are licensing it. You require a license in order to use it for anything but personal use. While your example is absolutely terrible, if "Great Britain" had a product with a license agreement, and you broke that agreement, you would be on the business end of an international lawsuit.
Your MBC harassment lawsuit question points to either a lack of knowledge of the situation, law in general, or that you're trolling. I'm going to assume a troll, but in case you aren't, you really need to READ these threads before you post.
Clearly, you are not interested in discussing the topic. If that is, then why do you continue to check the thread? You dodged all of my points and explained the concept of licensing, something I assure you I know in detail. You insulted the quality of my example, completely misinterpreted it, and then proceeded to accuse me of trolling. I do not know a whole lot of what is going on with MBC/OGN/Gretech/Blizzard, and I came into this thread to find out more and I even proposed my theory on what is going to happen in the end. I feel it is you who is trolling and harassing a user, and I am no longer interested in debating with you.
On October 24 2010 05:55 Redmark wrote: I just have one question: are Koreans bothered at all by these implications in these threads that their country is hopelessly corrupt/old-fashioned/stupid/insane? People keep saying things like 'it's SK can't they just kick them out', and it seems insulting to both sides (as well as to an entire country).
Is there some kind of reason why South Korea can't deny foreign companies access to their country with the intent of crippling broadcasting studios and making a profit off of it?
I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
On October 24 2010 06:03 e4e5nf3 wrote: I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
that's not what's happening here... they would gladly have kept BW alive had kespa not been retarded. blizzard made a product, that product got extremely popular, they suddenly wanted credit and compensation (which makes perfect sense), kespa is greedy and says 'fuck you'.
honestly, in a logical non-proleague-fanboy sense, blizzard has the right to do this.
First, only one Battle.net account per cd-key. Ok, it's bullshit but I guess we put up with worse from other companies.
Next, no LAN in Starcraft II. Seriously, what the fuck? I generally play more LAN multiplayer than online with most games. Way to fuck people like me over, blizz.
And now blizzard is suing one of the companies that turned a game - their game - into the world's first and only true e-sports phenomenon? What the FUCK?
At first one could maybe have attributed some weird things to executive meddling from higher ups brought in by Activision. That's not any kind of adequate explanation for all of this. I seriously think all the success and $$$ from WoW has brewed up some kind of concoction over at Activision Blizzard, and it's ugly. I still have some nostalgia for Warcraft: Orcs & Humans, but this new company isn't something I even recognize.
I really doubt that Blizzard will actually win this. They've known about these leagues since the beginning and only now, a decade later, do they bring a lawsuit. If they wanted to assert control, they should have done so years ago. I can't see how any court would take them seriously at this point.
On October 24 2010 06:03 e4e5nf3 wrote: I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
that's not what's happening here... they would gladly have kept BW alive had kespa not been retarded. blizzard made a product, that product got extremely popular, they suddenly wanted credit and compensation (which makes perfect sense), kespa is greedy and says 'fuck you'.
honestly, in a logical non-proleague-fanboy sense, blizzard has the right to do this.
To ask for royalties? Yes. To ask for the ownership of everything KeSPA puts a lot more money into than blizzard into both BW and sc2 (if not all their games combined)? Hell no...
On October 24 2010 06:03 e4e5nf3 wrote: I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
that's not what's happening here... they would gladly have kept BW alive had kespa not been retarded. blizzard made a product, that product got extremely popular, they suddenly wanted credit and compensation (which makes perfect sense), kespa is greedy and says 'fuck you'.
honestly, in a logical non-proleague-fanboy sense, blizzard has the right to do this.
Your argument against Kespa is so full of holes it makes me want to shoot a baby in the face.
See this is what I feel have happened. Its suppose to be a standard game when ALL THE SUDDEN, Blizzard went all-in against Kespa and things got ugly afteward.
Makes me even more proud for not purchasing SC2 yet (been playing on a bunch of guest passes lol). Fuck you blizzard. If you trash e-sports in Korea, I will not buy SC2 and D3 and all the other fuckshit you decide to release. I eagerly await the NA release of Cabal II.
On October 24 2010 07:30 OpticalShot wrote: Makes me even more proud for not purchasing SC2 yet (been playing on a bunch of guest passes lol). Fuck you blizzard. If you trash e-sports in Korea, I will not buy SC2 and D3 and all the other fuckshit you decide to release. I eagerly await the NA release of Cabal II.
tbh I highly doubt they care if they lose you as a customer its you missing out not them.
Either way sucks it had to go to this hope it all works out in the end....
Blizzard is going all in trying to take control over the sc e-sports community. quoting the "pros" on their sites and acting as if they owned the players and picturing false "we are your friends" signals to newcomers" where it should say "Hi my name is Activision and I want YOUR money" I'm so disapointed
On October 24 2010 06:03 e4e5nf3 wrote: I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
if they just had made starcraft 2 the game it should have been, that process would be way faster and 'natural'
On October 24 2010 06:03 e4e5nf3 wrote: I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
if they just had made starcraft 2 the game it should have been, that process would be way faster and 'natural'
This whole situation is so dumb. There's no reason for both games not to coexist in the esports scene.
Isn't blizzard the only one that sees this as a problem? In the end, it really is all about money for activision/blizzard.
On October 24 2010 06:53 Meriones wrote: Let's not forget that SC2 is actually not a good game and people only play it or say it's good because they have to (Idra, Artosis, Day9).
1) I consider SC2 quite good considering expectations and how long it's being out. Watching the GSL really reminded me of the Gilette OSL back in the days when Julyzerg munched through most of the terrans with ease. But in the end, it's certainly a matter of opinion.
2) I partly agree with you about Artosis doing this for the money. Although he seems to get more into it with every game they cast. But accusing Idra (who made very little buck of SC2) and especially Day[9] who has only sporadic SC2 casting jobs and little revenue for his stream is really rude. These 2 put everything they are in this and if you would have ever seen Idra steaming out he booth after a lost game, you would surely know that. Let me reverse your argument to make you see how it works out for you: "Let's not forget that KESPA isn't actually after the good of the sport but rather to make the most buck out of it." Surely you would say that's absurd, and it is considering the countless anonymous faces helping KESPA putting up a great show. But your argument is nearly identical ...
Of course SC2 needs the kick-start by the GSL, but the lawsuit is not to sacrifice BW for SC2.
On October 24 2010 09:36 writer22816 wrote: I hope Kespa wins and then kills the GSL out of spite anyway. That should teach the greedy Activision Blizzard a lesson.
Keep hoping lol.
Though, i don't mind them teaching Activision Blizzard a lesson, but not this way.
On October 24 2010 09:36 writer22816 wrote: I hope Kespa wins and then kills the GSL out of spite anyway. That should teach the greedy Activision Blizzard a lesson.
I don't want GSL to be killed, I want it to become less and less big over time as players switch back to BW
It appeared that many koreans in the Internet, opinions are almost like these.
"Blizzard did nothing good to Korean BW scene. They have no rights to interfere KeSPA whatever KeSPA or OGN / MBC use BW to earn money."
"Both KeSPA / Blizzard are greedy companies. Even if copyright law is clear, you guys don't supposed to support Blizzard. Because Blizzard tried to kill BW Professional scene."
"We do not support KeSPA because they have been always messing around BW scene in a wrong way when they elected Shin-Bae Kim as 2nd President of KeSPA. but we support BW players and pro-teams of KeSPA. We hope that this issue solved quickly."
"Why KeSPA keep reusing Blizzard as a superior position. Blizzard made BW after all. BW is not a "public good" as KeSPA said. Dumb KeSPA! We want to see KeSPA fall and dissapper in e-sports." etc.
As I mentioned above, many people in the Internet criticize KeSPA what they do wrong. Some people hate Blizzard because it seems that Blizzard tried to kill BW scene. There are not so much people support KeSPA or OGN/MBC at this time. They just want BW scene alive in SK. It's clear to say many people are not supporters of Blizzard or KeSPA. Just criticize KeSPA or hate Blizzard.
Another interview comes from FOMOS. it said that Blizzard "We still have a interest in SC1","We will not stop supporting BW scene"
I like how Korea said FU to sc2. Selling game like starcraft 2 for 60Euro is pretty ridiculous. I would laugh pretty badly if Korea bans it. Blizzard doesnt deserve anything else.
You guys think that blizzard needs korea... I doesn't. Sure, only Korea will still support BW (foolishly stuck in their ways) but SC2 does not need Korea. Sure its a nice boost, but I wouldn't even call non-Koreans foreigners in SC2. Its just like that.
Blizzard thinks SC2 needs Korea, why else would they host GSL in Korea instead of NA/EU. Guess what, in NA/EU pro SC2 players are just a bunch of nerds playing video games. SC2 becomes a world wide hit? Not a freaking chance.
On October 24 2010 11:16 zenMaster wrote: Blizzard thinks SC2 needs Korea, why else would they host GSL in Korea instead of NA/EU.
blizz doesn't host it... Gom does
Why didn't Blizz sell their rights to TSN or ESPN? oh right, nerds playing video games don't attract NA audiences. Get over the hype already.
There is not a company in America that is worth giving the rights to, and giving the SC2 rights to any "foreign" company would be terrible. It cannot be confined to one company/space. And ESPN? lol. ESPN would NEVER buy video game rights, its demographic is football fans >.>
On October 24 2010 11:04 TheGeo wrote: GO blizzard, and they can win this people. I do hope that BW dies =P
You really are giving a bad name to SC2 players or trolls, if you aren't part of the polar SC2 anti-BW squad. What is the point of this post other than to incite hatred?
On October 24 2010 11:16 zenMaster wrote: Blizzard thinks SC2 needs Korea, why else would they host GSL in Korea instead of NA/EU.
blizz doesn't host it... Gom does
Why didn't Blizz sell their rights to TSN or ESPN? oh right, nerds playing video games don't attract NA audiences. Get over the hype already.
There is not a company in America that is worth giving the rights to, and giving the SC2 rights to any "foreign" company would be terrible. It cannot be confined to one company/space. And ESPN? lol. ESPN would NEVER buy video game rights, its demographic is football fans >.>
QFT!
I really doubt that the video game culture would succeed in North America, teens these days like from 14 to 16 STILL thinks that progaming is for nerds and people with no social skills and say stuff like "Get a life" when you start talking about gamings. It will take at least one decades for people to accept this concept, I would probably say that in high school, 95% of people thinks that way.
On October 24 2010 11:04 TheGeo wrote: GO blizzard, and they can win this people. I do hope that BW dies =P
You really are giving a bad name to SC2 players or trolls, if you aren't part of the polar SC2 anti-BW squad. What is the point of this post other than to incite hatred?
To show my support of blizzards actions. I do apologies for the "I hope that BW dies" looking back to the 5 minutes ago I said I don't remember why... =? rush of the moment I guess.
On October 24 2010 11:04 TheGeo wrote: GO blizzard, and they can win this people. I do hope that BW dies =P
You really are giving a bad name to SC2 players or trolls, if you aren't part of the polar SC2 anti-BW squad. What is the point of this post other than to incite hatred?
To show my support of blizzards actions. I do apologies for the "I hope that BW dies" looking back to the 5 minutes ago I said I don't remember why... =? rush of the moment I guess.
I'd say you were being really counterproductive, seeing as these sorts of posts only polarise a previously pro-Blizzard fanbase.
On October 24 2010 11:04 TheGeo wrote: GO blizzard, and they can win this people. I do hope that BW dies =P
You really are giving a bad name to SC2 players or trolls, if you aren't part of the polar SC2 anti-BW squad. What is the point of this post other than to incite hatred?
To show my support of blizzards actions. I do apologies for the "I hope that BW dies" looking back to the 5 minutes ago I said I don't remember why... =? rush of the moment I guess.
I'd say you were being really counterproductive, seeing as these sorts of posts only polarise a previously pro-Blizzard fanbase.
Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
On October 24 2010 11:10 TheGeo wrote: You guys think that blizzard needs korea... I doesn't. Sure, only Korea will still support BW (foolishly stuck in their ways) but SC2 does not need Korea. Sure its a nice boost, but I wouldn't even call non-Koreans foreigners in SC2. Its just like that.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
wat. Korea will not take revenge, it does not work that way. How would they shut down Blizzard's operation?I think lot of people have misconception about South Korea. It's still a democratically elected government, and the election process is as clean as it gets, shown by the fact that two parties with very different ideal exist and compete.
Esports will ive on without KeSPA. Many koreans agree with this, and they hope KeSPA disappears because of this whole fiasco. The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion. They seemingly do things that seem illegal in blizzard's eyes because they rely on KeSPA to deal with the situation.
MBC and OGN is the foundation of Esports. (ok the fans are but) Without these guys, esports in SK will fail because nobody else can create anything close to the production value MBC and OGN churns out. Gomtv is not a tv station and they still have ways to go if they want to compete with MBC/OGN on an even ground, shown by the fact that they are using OGN to spread GSL's popularity.
I really hope blizzard withdraw the statement and take legal actions against KeSPA if they feel that it is really necessary, but leave my MBC/OGNs alone!
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
wat. Korea will not take revenge, it does not work that way. How would they shut down Blizzard's operation?I think lot of people have misconception about South Korea. It's still a democratically elected government, and the election process is as clean as it gets, shown by the fact that two parties with very different ideal exist and compete.
Esports will ive on without KeSPA. Many koreans agree with this, and they hope KeSPA disappears because of this whole fiasco. The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion. They seemingly do things that seem illegal in blizzard's eyes because they rely on KeSPA to deal with the situation.
MBC and OGN is the foundation of Esports. (ok the fans are but) Without these guys, esports in SK will fail because nobody else can create anything close to the production value MBC and OGN churns out. Gomtv is not a tv station and they still have ways to go if they want to compete with MBC/OGN on an even ground, shown by the fact that they are using OGN to spread GSL's popularity.
I really hope blizzard withdraw the statement and take legal actions against KeSPA if they feel that it is really necessary, but leave my MBC/OGNs alone!
E-Sports will die if Blizzard wins. It will live on if they lose. Blizzard is not interested in some money compensation for using BW, they're interested in erasing BW for SC2.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
Blizzard winning does not put anyone out of the job, especially if MBC decide to settle. All this does is makes it so Blizzard (Gretech) is in control of negotiations, and anyone who wants to keep their job needs to respect their rights. If anyone DOES lose their job, it's because of poor decisions by KeSPA/MBC, not Blizzard.
Say : "I WANT MORE FUKING MONEY WHAT I JUST CAN'T GET ENOUGHT!!!!!!!!!"
YEAH; SAY IT FUKING LOUD; BLIZZARD!!!!!!! YOU SNEAKY BASTARD!!!!!!!
Edit: i wish i can say it to the chairman of blizzard face to face.
They let this happen what they should have under control since scbw league was created, then blizzard let gretech handle that situation what makes this worse.
I know there are many people working in blizzard who do their best, but the policy and the politic of blizzard / activision did it again.
CONGRATS, YOU GREEDY RATS
Edit: Sad that every fuking problem in whole has same pattern like this case.
On October 24 2010 12:25 scion wrote: The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion.
Isn't KeSPA made from a few pro gaming teams? As far as I know, MBC and OGN (the broadcasting station you're talking about) are a part of them.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
wat. Korea will not take revenge, it does not work that way. How would they shut down Blizzard's operation?I think lot of people have misconception about South Korea. It's still a democratically elected government, and the election process is as clean as it gets, shown by the fact that two parties with very different ideal exist and compete.
Esports will ive on without KeSPA. Many koreans agree with this, and they hope KeSPA disappears because of this whole fiasco. The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion. They seemingly do things that seem illegal in blizzard's eyes because they rely on KeSPA to deal with the situation.
MBC and OGN is the foundation of Esports. (ok the fans are but) Without these guys, esports in SK will fail because nobody else can create anything close to the production value MBC and OGN churns out. Gomtv is not a tv station and they still have ways to go if they want to compete with MBC/OGN on an even ground, shown by the fact that they are using OGN to spread GSL's popularity.
I really hope blizzard withdraw the statement and take legal actions against KeSPA if they feel that it is really necessary, but leave my MBC/OGNs alone!
E-Sports will die if Blizzard wins. It will live on if they lose. Blizzard is not interested in some money compensation for using BW, they're interested in erasing BW for SC2.
This just seem like fear-mongering. If you read the original interview, Blizzard only decided to step in after KeSPA decided to sell broadcasting rights to the tv stations.
Esports scene does not have that much money associated with it. There is no reason for Blizzard-Activision to actively try to take over and milk money out of it, because there isn't much money to be made from the start. People involved with esports always talks about how it is a channel for advertising, not a money raking business.
Blizzard's problem is with KeSPA's childish like attitude. KeSPA always acted as if they owned the whole business and refused to cooperate. Did you know KeSPA deleted NaDa's SC record? I don't know if there is article on TL about it but its all over Korean websites. Out of all the retired players, only NaDa's record has disappeared with such speed after the announcement of his retirement from SC1.
It has been said many times already, Blizzard tried to approach Broadcasting stations, Player teams, ect but has always been blocked by KeSPA. Leaving KeSPA alone, imo, will inhibit the global growth in eSports. Nothing will put the fire back in esports (both in SK and around the world) like what Gomtv is doing, involving the entire world into the scene in South Korea.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
wat. Korea will not take revenge, it does not work that way. How would they shut down Blizzard's operation?I think lot of people have misconception about South Korea. It's still a democratically elected government, and the election process is as clean as it gets, shown by the fact that two parties with very different ideal exist and compete.
Esports will ive on without KeSPA. Many koreans agree with this, and they hope KeSPA disappears because of this whole fiasco. The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion. They seemingly do things that seem illegal in blizzard's eyes because they rely on KeSPA to deal with the situation.
MBC and OGN is the foundation of Esports. (ok the fans are but) Without these guys, esports in SK will fail because nobody else can create anything close to the production value MBC and OGN churns out. Gomtv is not a tv station and they still have ways to go if they want to compete with MBC/OGN on an even ground, shown by the fact that they are using OGN to spread GSL's popularity.
I really hope blizzard withdraw the statement and take legal actions against KeSPA if they feel that it is really necessary, but leave my MBC/OGNs alone!
E-Sports will die if Blizzard wins. It will live on if they lose. Blizzard is not interested in some money compensation for using BW, they're interested in erasing BW for SC2.
IMO, Blizzard is more concerned with its IP rights than whether BW lives or dies. IP rights is a big issue for a gaming company like Blizzard, especially in a country like Korea with its huge gaming culture. I think in a perfect world, Blizzard would like both BW and SC2 to be successful esports. That's what Blizzard has said in interviews, and I believe them. I mean, they made both games and profit from both games' success and fame. I think they're more interested in protecting their intellectual property than killing anything, but if it comes down to BW vs. their IP rights, they'll pull the trigger on BW (or at least try to). To me, it seems like Blizzard's perfect world would be healthy pro scenes for both BW and SC2 (maybe with SC2's scene a little bigger), with their IP rights intact.
Also, I'd just like to say as one of the new TeamLiquid members from SC2 that I have a tremendous respect for the BW fans. I only found out about how cool esports is with the release of SC2, while a lot of you have been around here for years. I hope you guys can continue to enjoy BW just like how I've learned to enjoy SC2. It'd be very sad if BW died over something stupid like a legal dispute.
On October 24 2010 12:25 scion wrote: The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion.
Isn't KeSPA made from a few pro gaming teams? As far as I know, MBC and OGN (the broadcasting station you're talking about) are a part of them.
Yea I believe so, but OGN existed before KeSPA's direct involvment in esports.
What I have problem with what blizzard is doing right now, is it may kill broodwar scene and Blizzard doesn't seem to care. Sure, shutting down OGN and MBC will be the fastest way to get KeSPA's attention, but this method seems to disregard the fact that significant chunk of esports fans still watch BW in SK.
OGN/MBC are the member of KeSPA. If Proleague have no broadcasting issues, Blizzard have no reason to sue MBC, or later OGN. Also, it would be hard to sue KeSPA.
But the problem starts that KeSPA sell BW Proleague broadcasting rights to OGN/MBC. These broadcasting stations air the BW Proleague with approval of KeSPA, not Blizzard. They have been paying the broadcasting fee to KeSPA. So the broadcasting system is the first target. Because OGN/MBC choose the wrong side to deal with BW broadcasting rights.
And it seems to me that fact is almost the same as suing KeSPA.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
wat. Korea will not take revenge, it does not work that way. How would they shut down Blizzard's operation?I think lot of people have misconception about South Korea. It's still a democratically elected government, and the election process is as clean as it gets, shown by the fact that two parties with very different ideal exist and compete.
Esports will ive on without KeSPA. Many koreans agree with this, and they hope KeSPA disappears because of this whole fiasco. The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion. They seemingly do things that seem illegal in blizzard's eyes because they rely on KeSPA to deal with the situation.
MBC and OGN is the foundation of Esports. (ok the fans are but) Without these guys, esports in SK will fail because nobody else can create anything close to the production value MBC and OGN churns out. Gomtv is not a tv station and they still have ways to go if they want to compete with MBC/OGN on an even ground, shown by the fact that they are using OGN to spread GSL's popularity.
I really hope blizzard withdraw the statement and take legal actions against KeSPA if they feel that it is really necessary, but leave my MBC/OGNs alone!
E-Sports will die if Blizzard wins. It will live on if they lose. Blizzard is not interested in some money compensation for using BW, they're interested in erasing BW for SC2.
IMO, Blizzard is more concerned with its IP rights than whether BW lives or dies. IP rights is a big issue for a gaming company like Blizzard, especially in a country like Korea with its huge gaming culture. I think in a perfect world, Blizzard would like both BW and SC2 to be successful esports. That's what Blizzard has said in interviews, and I believe them. I mean, they made both games and profit from both games' success and fame. I think they're more interested in protecting their intellectual property than killing anything, but if it comes down to BW vs. their IP rights, they'll pull the trigger on BW (or at least try to). To me, it seems like Blizzard's perfect world would be healthy pro scenes for both BW and SC2 (maybe with SC2's scene a little bigger), with their IP rights intact.
Also, I'd just like to say as one of the new TeamLiquid members from SC2 that I have a tremendous respect for the BW fans. I only found out about how cool esports is with the release of SC2, while a lot of you have been around here for years. I hope you guys can continue to enjoy BW just like how I've learned to enjoy SC2. It'd be very sad if BW died over something stupid like a legal dispute.
I would really love to believe Blizzard only wants to protect their IP rights, but they should have done it 10 years ago. Trying to stop proleague over IP rights when they come out with SC2 is not a sign that screams Blizzard loves BW E-Sports.
On October 24 2010 11:48 darmousseh wrote: Blizzard is going to win so badly. They have the international copyright laws right behind them and korea doesn't want to be seen as going against international laws otherwise they will lose investment.
MBC try to settle early and save face.
Actually if Blizzard wins, thousands of Koreans will lose job in this industry and high employment will rise up. This potentially means that the Korea government will take revenge (trust me Koreans have big egos against foreigners) and shut down Blizzard's operation in the country which means no more SC2 and WoW (don't actually know how many Koreans play the game). If GSL is done, then the whole "progaming" and "e-sport" is all over. When SC1 was released, nearly all Koreans started playing and went on to forge into its culture. SC2 came out, there isn't even half of the boost popularity as it was in Korea in NA/EU. Won't be enough to have people going all out for this game. Unless Blizzards invest heavily on SC2's pro scene outside of Korea. Without Korea, E-sport have been nuked.
wat. Korea will not take revenge, it does not work that way. How would they shut down Blizzard's operation?I think lot of people have misconception about South Korea. It's still a democratically elected government, and the election process is as clean as it gets, shown by the fact that two parties with very different ideal exist and compete.
Esports will ive on without KeSPA. Many koreans agree with this, and they hope KeSPA disappears because of this whole fiasco. The problem is, Blizzard is attacking the broadcasting station instead of KeSPA, which is definitely wrong approach in my opinion. They seemingly do things that seem illegal in blizzard's eyes because they rely on KeSPA to deal with the situation.
MBC and OGN is the foundation of Esports. (ok the fans are but) Without these guys, esports in SK will fail because nobody else can create anything close to the production value MBC and OGN churns out. Gomtv is not a tv station and they still have ways to go if they want to compete with MBC/OGN on an even ground, shown by the fact that they are using OGN to spread GSL's popularity.
I really hope blizzard withdraw the statement and take legal actions against KeSPA if they feel that it is really necessary, but leave my MBC/OGNs alone!
E-Sports will die if Blizzard wins. It will live on if they lose. Blizzard is not interested in some money compensation for using BW, they're interested in erasing BW for SC2.
IMO, Blizzard is more concerned with its IP rights than whether BW lives or dies. IP rights is a big issue for a gaming company like Blizzard, especially in a country like Korea with its huge gaming culture. I think in a perfect world, Blizzard would like both BW and SC2 to be successful esports. That's what Blizzard has said in interviews, and I believe them. I mean, they made both games and profit from both games' success and fame. I think they're more interested in protecting their intellectual property than killing anything, but if it comes down to BW vs. their IP rights, they'll pull the trigger on BW (or at least try to). To me, it seems like Blizzard's perfect world would be healthy pro scenes for both BW and SC2 (maybe with SC2's scene a little bigger), with their IP rights intact.
Also, I'd just like to say as one of the new TeamLiquid members from SC2 that I have a tremendous respect for the BW fans. I only found out about how cool esports is with the release of SC2, while a lot of you have been around here for years. I hope you guys can continue to enjoy BW just like how I've learned to enjoy SC2. It'd be very sad if BW died over something stupid like a legal dispute.
I would really love to believe Blizzard only wants to protect their IP rights, but they should have done it 10 years ago. Trying to stop proleague over IP rights when they come out with SC2 is not a sign that screams Blizzard loves BW E-Sports.
They didn't do it 10 years ago because they thought E-sports was cool and wanted it to develop. They only got involved in 2007 when KeSPA sold broadcasting rights to the stations. It is merely KeSPA's lack of action that the whole thing blew out of proportion with release of SC2, because they've been clearly trying to talk to KeSPA since 2007. (who ignored blizzard)
It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
seems more like an "e-business" in the eyes of blizzard. If BW was ever taken as an e-sport, blizzard would've never done these efforts to shut down BW permanently.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
As has been mentioned previously, both in this thread and in many others, the problem comes with how Blizzard let the BW scene go along untouched for several years before even contacting kespa. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no real opinion on where the rights lie, but as far as I understand it, there is a legitimate case for kespa.
On October 24 2010 14:14 nalgene wrote: Anyone notice a lot of 2010 accounts in this thread?
Yes. On both sides. A lot of the more consistent pro-Kespa apologists on this and other threads are also 2010's or 2009's like me. Hard to tell how long people have been lurking or have been involved in Starcraft in other capacities.
i dont think all the "YEA GO KESPA, FUCK YOU BLIZZARD UR KILLING OUR CHILDHOOD I HOPE YOU DIE AND MAGGOTS EAT YOUR EYEBALLZ" people really understand what is going on. Not that I am way up high with the all seeing eye, but im willing to reserve judgment until later when I know more to see how it plays out.
the fact that shit had to go so far down the drain is sad. Either win is still bad for competitive scbw. Kespa wins, blizzard looks like an asshole. Blizzard wins, there will be a vacuum in audience and srs ramifications for pros in korea.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
As has been mentioned previously, both in this thread and in many others, the problem comes with how Blizzard let the BW scene go along untouched for several years before even contacting kespa. I'm not a lawyer, so I have no real opinion on where the rights lie, but as far as I understand it, there is a legitimate case for kespa.
That would be relevant if blizzard was suing because KeSPA created or advanced BW as an esport, which they are not. They are suing because KeSPA and also MBC by siding with KeSPA are not respecting their rights, all Blizzard has been saying is hey I created this game I own it and I and i am the ones who is to be selling anything to do with the game unless I have given someone permission. Its the same thing as when u watch a sport and you get the little disclaimer msg saying you may not rebroadcast etc etc without the express written permission of the company, whether that be the nba or nfl whatever.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
So basically this whole ordeal is saying that people don't have the legal right to broadcast BW games, and that only Blizzard does (I didn't follow the BW pro scene)?
On October 24 2010 11:05 jayGroove wrote: Another interview comes from FOMOS. it said that Blizzard "We still have a interest in SC1","We will not stop supporting BW scene" .
Reminds me of when a company takes over say an american manufacturer and promises to keep making that stuff in their USA factory.
A short while later the factories are closed and relocated to China or Mexico.
There is more money in SC2 thus Blizzard will wind down BW as fast as they can , as simple as that.
On October 24 2010 14:06 RumTalk wrote: It really is amazing how many people cant just think about this matter in a logical manner, Blizzard gains nothing by forcing BW to die, as some have stated previously it is actually better for both of their games to have a healthy pro scene. Blizzard has been trying to talk to KeSPA for years regarding their sale of the broadcasting rights, KeSPA told them where they could shove their IP rights. What people apparently dont get is that Blizzard owns the game they created it, its their product end of story, if someone else takes that product and tries to profit off of it, without giving the owner their fair due(which is whatever the owner deems it to be) its called stealing. From the information that has been released to the public Blizzard has been more than accommodating in their demands, which they did not have to do in the first place, and KeSPA has still refused, even flaunting Blizzards authority in starting the proleague when explicitly told not to and of course once again selling the broadcasting rights. Fact of the matter is Blizzard is well within its rights to sue to stop this. The reason that they are suing MBC first is because MBC was at the very least informed that in the owner of the products eyes their broadcasting of BW was illegal and yet they paid the broadcasting fee to KeSPA and starting broadcasting anyways.
p.s. and yes this is a new account and my first post get over it
Although I'm not an expert in the details of this case, it is to my knowledge that what you call "whatever the owner (blizzard) deems it to be" was too demanding. I do not know what Blizzard released publicly but KeSPA also publicly released the demands from Blizzard and it claimed that Blizzard wanted full rights to organizing tournaments, teams, etc. in addition to licensing fees.
I agree with you, that since SC is Blizzard's product, they most likely, have the right to decide the terms that go along with the various ways in which the product is used. I'll go as far as to even say that legally, they may have full rights to organizing sc tournaments, teams, etc. But it is people like you, a stickler to law, who fail to realize that laws are imperfect and can be manipulated in such a way that "justice" isn't truly served.
Law is not everything. I'm not saying illegal behavior should be endorsed. But think about the history of Brood War. Who and what were all the factors that allowed SC:BW to mature into what it is today. Based on Blizzard's past handling of tournaments (just in case you're unfamiliar, they failed terribly), think about what would happen if Blizzard had the rights and were to organize tournaments and teams today.
Maybe based on current law, Blizzard has full rights (again, I'm no legal expert so this is pure speculation). What I am almost certain of is that there is probably no law the takes into account and respects what KeSPA has done for the game of SC:BW for the past decade. Sure, they have their own faults. But it was thanks to them that an esports culture was even created. The GSL of today probably wouldn't exist without the cultural institution of esports that KeSPA helped cultivate. The esports culture war a significant reason for the swelling popularity of the SC franchise. But do you see Blizzard even remotely respecting what KeSPA has done for them and for their game?
Indeed, following your logic, Blizzard would have no legal obligation to appreciate and respect KeSPA's accomplishments with their game. But I think anyone with a just conscience can see that Blizzard isn't simply being motivated by "legality" here, unlike what they are constantly stating publicly. Everyone hates hypocrites. And then there are people on these forums wondering why Blizzard receives such hate.
There is no argument here. Blizzard owns the IP copyright and they are allowed to control it's broadcasting. Blizzard not enforcing it for a couple years doesn't mean they still don't own it. Imagine how pissed disney would get if some company went around selling micky mouse stuff for 10 years and then claimed that they owned it since they built a community around it for 10 years. 10 years is a short time and time doesn't matter anyway when it comes to this stuff. Yes kespa helped sc1 become popular, but they did it without the blessing of blizzard and when blizzard came to give them their blessing for a price, they refused and even cancled gretech stuff by forcing the players to not participate.
Although I'm not an expert in the details of this case, it is to my knowledge that what you call "whatever the owner (blizzard) deems it to be" was too demanding. I do not know what Blizzard released publicly but KeSPA also publicly released the demands from Blizzard and it claimed that Blizzard wanted full rights to organizing tournaments, teams, etc. in addition to licensing fees.
I agree with you, that since SC is Blizzard's product, they most likely, have the right to decide the terms that go along with the various ways in which the product is used. I'll go as far as to even say that legally, they may have full rights to organizing sc tournaments, teams, etc. But it is people like you, a stickler to law, who fail to realize that laws are imperfect and can be manipulated in such a way that "justice" isn't truly served.
Law is not everything. I'm not saying illegal behavior should be endorsed. But think about the history of Brood War. Who and what were all the factors that allowed SC:BW to mature into what it is today. Based on Blizzard's past handling of tournaments (just in case you're unfamiliar, they failed terribly), think about what would happen if Blizzard had the rights and were to organize tournaments and teams today.
Maybe based on current law, Blizzard has full rights (again, I'm no legal expert so this is pure speculation). What I am almost certain of is that there is probably no law the takes into account and respects what KeSPA has done for the game of SC:BW for the past decade. Sure, they have their own faults. But it was thanks to them that an esports culture was even created. The GSL of today probably wouldn't exist without the cultural institution of esports that KeSPA helped cultivate. The esports culture war a significant reason for the swelling popularity of the SC franchise. But do you see Blizzard even remotely respecting what KeSPA has done for them and for their game?
Indeed, following your logic, Blizzard would have no legal obligation to appreciate and respect KeSPA's accomplishments with their game. But I think anyone with a just conscience can see that Blizzard isn't simply being motivated by "legality" here, unlike what they are constantly stating publicly. Everyone hates hypocrites. And then there are people on these forums wondering why Blizzard receives such hate.
I agree with some parts of what yoy are saying, I can't bold stuff on my phone though. What you have to remember is that blizzard does respect what KeSPA has done with their game that's why they went to KeSPA first trying to make them be the holders of the ip rights in korea aka being legally allowed to broadcast etc, as long as they pay a certain fee, whether at the time it was a fee for the year or per tournament I don't know, what I do know is KeSPA told them to stick it up their ass. So yes blizzard knows that without bw's success as a game and a esport the past 10 years there would be no GSL today. The issue is again based on the information we all have access to, blizzard says this is the tournament fee for broadcasting(I can't actually remember the proper number, phone makes it difficult to look it up) and you have to agree that I we(blizzard) own the game and everything to do with it, and you(KeSPA and anyone in the future) need my permission to profit off it.
On October 24 2010 15:59 darmousseh wrote: There is no argument here. Blizzard owns the IP copyright and they are allowed to control it's broadcasting. Blizzard not enforcing it for a couple years doesn't mean they still don't own it. Imagine how pissed disney would get if some company went around selling micky mouse stuff for 10 years and then claimed that they owned it since they built a community around it for 10 years. 10 years is a short time and time doesn't matter anyway when it comes to this stuff. Yes kespa helped sc1 become popular, but they did it without the blessing of blizzard and when blizzard came to give them their blessing for a price, they refused and even cancled gretech stuff by forcing the players to not participate.
I think its important to note that the negotiations are not between Blizzard and Kespa, but between Gretech and Kespa. Having said that, it is actually impossible to be unfair in a negotiation you are not partaking in.
"The negotiation terms that Gretech offered to both of the broadcasting stations are fair, so we want to see the negotiation through as smooth as possible, and be on a good relations. Also, Blizzard has no plan to get any monetary gains through the IP rights negotiation process. Didn't you see in Gretech's announcement, that all monetary gains will be donated to charities? Once again, we want to see StarCraft 1 and StarCraft 2 to exist side-by-side."
"Few years ago, there was a situation when KeSPA demanded broadcasting fee from broadcasting stations, and I remember the fee to be significantly higher than the rumors or current negotiation terms offered. The important fact here is, that KeSPA has no right to demand any money, but they did so, at much higher price. The absolutely true fact is that, few years ago, KeSPA demanded a lot of money, and we think if someone wants to use somebody else's IP, they should be paying a fair price to the IP owner.
As for the sub-licensing, we gave Gretech full rights, so we are not involved with that negotiation. Gretech is a for-profit company, so it seems only right that the negotiation should end with fair pricing for both Gretech and the broadcasting stations.
Once again, Blizzard did not decide on the pricing in the negotiation, and that Gretech will set a fair price for the negotiation. Ultimately, we want to protect our IP rights.
I want to also make a mention about the rumors going around regarding the relationship between Gretech and Blizzard. Gretech is Blizzard's partner. This is based on trust, and Blizzard still trusts and supports Gretech. So, we want to confirm again, clearly, that Blizzard and Gretech are partners who trust and respect each other. Likewise, we want to see new partnerships created with other groups in Korea. To do so, we need to have respect going both ways, but beforehand, we need acknowledgment of the IP rights. Doing broadcasting without getting the license is an act of disrespect." - Paul Sams
/endthread?
Anyway, lets be real for a moment. Kespa didn't do anything for Blizzard. All their work was for their self-interest, and it just happened to benefit Blizzard. These negotiations have been going on for quite a while (years back, not just now). Is it because Blizzard wanted to kill SC2? Maybe, who knows. All we know is that there are companies that have been profiting from someone else's product. Its like me buying a TV and selling it to someone else, except I stole the TV. Not the best analogy, but you get the point. If we're all not respecting IP rights, then Kespa shouldn't ask for a fee from the broadcasting stations since they have the right to play whatever they want. Kespa did ask for fees, implying that they are selling a product (being SC1). But Blizzard can make this same argument Kespa did, and ask a fee for them to use their product.
Anyway, regardless of who is right and who is wrong. I sincerely hope that it gets settled. My best case scenario is Blizzard wins their rightful IP rights, and pro-leagues remain intact. Probably not going to happen but we can hope.
On October 24 2010 15:59 darmousseh wrote: There is no argument here. Blizzard owns the IP copyright and they are allowed to control it's broadcasting. Blizzard not enforcing it for a couple years doesn't mean they still don't own it. Imagine how pissed disney would get if some company went around selling micky mouse stuff for 10 years and then claimed that they owned it since they built a community around it for 10 years. 10 years is a short time and time doesn't matter anyway when it comes to this stuff. Yes kespa helped sc1 become popular, but they did it without the blessing of blizzard and when blizzard came to give them their blessing for a price, they refused and even cancled gretech stuff by forcing the players to not participate.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
IMHO, without the popularity and sales of SC1 (due in large part to Korea, MBC, and OGN) there would have been no WoW, no Mega-Monster Blizzard and no SC2 as we know it today. It can all be traced back to SC1, Korea, Boxer and the big channels.
Blizzard owes a lot to pro gaming in Korea, and this is a shitty way to repay them. All to forcibly bolster SC2. Because this is 100% correct:
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
Pretty much sums up Activision-Blizzard.
Pretty much sums up capitalism.
Doing something well and doing something badly can both be attributed to capitalism. I understand you are trying to be cynical, but this is one of the worst ways this could be resolved and they willingly chose to do it. Might have been a long term disaster, which at least I don't know. The imminent effects can be seen here in this thread, and most of us were huge Blizzard fans.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
Couldn't Kespa just stall this and keep broadcasting while they are taking this to court? They don't have to stop broadcast until the court decided it to be illegal and this case could go on for years... or am I wrong here?
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
This post sums up everything about Activision-Blizzard in current terms PERFECTLY. Blizzard is shooting themselves in the foot in the PR department by doing this.
Would you really tarnish, or even destroy, your reputation just to promote one of many games that you have produced? Greed is blinding you, Blizzard, and it is not helping us as fans of the Starcraft universe, whether it be BW or SC2.
It disgusts me to see a photo of the Blizzard higher-ups posing with Boxer himself, the founder of BW e-sports. Boxer, please, I want to hear your comments on this, on the threatening reality that your brainchild, the BW proscene, is dying.
To what end would greed grow to, and for what means?
***News flash*** ActiBlizzard shuts down sc2 for diablo 3..ActiBlizzard announced today that SC2 is taking up too many broadcast time slots and is in direct competition with dialblo 3 HERO arena. Henceforth, the transition of all current pro sc2 gamers will begin to the new game. Please look forward to it.
On October 24 2010 11:05 jayGroove wrote: It appeared that many koreans in the Internet, opinions are almost like these.
"Blizzard did nothing good to Korean BW scene. They have no rights to interfere KeSPA whatever KeSPA or OGN / MBC use BW to earn money."
"Both KeSPA / Blizzard are greedy companies. Even if copyright law is clear, you guys don't supposed to support Blizzard. Because Blizzard tried to kill BW Professional scene."
"We do not support KeSPA because they have been always messing around BW scene in a wrong way when they elected Shin-Bae Kim as 2nd President of KeSPA. but we support BW players and pro-teams of KeSPA. We hope that this issue solved quickly."
"Why KeSPA keep reusing Blizzard as a superior position. Blizzard made BW after all. BW is not a "public good" as KeSPA said. Dumb KeSPA! We want to see KeSPA fall and dissapper in e-sports." etc.
As I mentioned above, many people in the Internet criticize KeSPA what they do wrong. Some people hate Blizzard because it seems that Blizzard tried to kill BW scene. There are not so much people support KeSPA or OGN/MBC at this time. They just want BW scene alive in SK. It's clear to say many people are not supporters of Blizzard or KeSPA. Just criticize KeSPA or hate Blizzard.
Another interview comes from FOMOS. it said that Blizzard "We still have a interest in SC1","We will not stop supporting BW scene"
Interview (10.24.10)
It's korean. I'm sorry...
Now, this is a much better position on the whole thing than the absolutely inane Kespa worship that's so common around here
On October 24 2010 18:03 Integra wrote: Couldn't Kespa just stall this and keep broadcasting while they are taking this to court? They don't have to stop broadcast until the court decided it to be illegal and this case could go on for years... or am I wrong here?
Normally yes, but Blizzard is going to try to get an injunction.
It is the last thing we can do at this point. Its our last option. We will sue MBCgame in a few days and Ongamenet could get sued as well. We are preparring for the dispute and will request preliminary injunction to stop broadcasting.
Assuming they do, and that a judge signs off on it (which could be a big assumption), it would mean no more BW (until the injunction is dropped or Blizzard loses their case in court). If that happens, even if they lose the case a year later there won't be anything left to salvage since no televised BW will lead to all the teams disbanding.
On October 24 2010 18:03 Integra wrote: Couldn't Kespa just stall this and keep broadcasting while they are taking this to court? They don't have to stop broadcast until the court decided it to be illegal and this case could go on for years... or am I wrong here?
Normally yes, but Blizzard is going to try to get an injunction.
It is the last thing we can do at this point. Its our last option. We will sue MBCgame in a few days and Ongamenet could get sued as well. We are preparring for the dispute and will request preliminary injunction to stop broadcasting.
Assuming they do, and that a judge signs off on it (which could be a big assumption), it would mean no more BW (until the injunction is dropped or Blizzard loses their case in court). If that happens, even if they lose the case a year later there won't be anything left to salvage since no televised BW will lead to all the teams disbanding.
Someone on TL mentioned that injunctions regarding IP rights in Korea work a little differently from that. I can't remember what was said.
Anyway, at this pt, just wait and see I guess. I doubt MBC/Kespa weren't prepared for this.
On October 24 2010 17:00 cursor wrote: IMHO, without the popularity and sales of SC1 (due in large part to Korea, MBC, and OGN) there would have been no WoW, no Mega-Monster Blizzard and no SC2 as we know it today. It can all be traced back to SC1, Korea, Boxer and the big channels.
A good chunk of Blizzard's fame comes from SC, that may be true. The other franchises, however, did just as much and probably even more, since both Diablo 1/2 and especially WarCraft 3 appeal to a much more casual crowd and thus to more players (compared to the more "hardcore" SC).
I'm certain there would have been a WoW even without SC's success in Korea. Saying that Blizzard/SC2 are only what they are now because of Korea, Boxer and Esports-TV channels dramatically overrates the importance of SC progaming.
On October 24 2010 17:00 cursor wrote: IMHO, without the popularity and sales of SC1 (due in large part to Korea, MBC, and OGN) there would have been no WoW, no Mega-Monster Blizzard and no SC2 as we know it today. It can all be traced back to SC1, Korea, Boxer and the big channels.
A good chunk of Blizzard's fame comes from SC, that may be true. The other franchises, however, did just as much and probably even more, since both Diablo 1/2 and especially WarCraft 3 appeal to a much more casual crowd and thus to more players (compared to the more "hardcore" SC).
I'm certain there would have been a WoW even without SC's success in Korea. Saying that Blizzard/SC2 are only what they are now because of Korea, Boxer and Esports-TV channels dramatically overrates the importance of SC progaming.
Starcraft gave blizzard the reputation of making the closest to perfect balanced game.
And starcraft is perfectly viable for casual play, go lan with your friends who only played vs the computer and suddenly a d+ can have tonse of fun by 1v3¨'ing your friends just because they are that bad and can only beat the computer =)
I played casually starcraft for 3-4 years before ever watching boxer vids on youtube...
I do hope that pro-scene in Korea is alive, it doesn't matter if Blizzard will lose or win, i do hope that the scene will still be there (SC1 and SC2).
I would love to see all the pro powerhouse start to have SC2 team in their team, and if it happens then e-Sports will really taking off.
I see that many people see this issue as SC2 vs SC1, but I don't think so. It's all about money, period. And I do afraid if Blizzard win, then eSports will take a huge hit to say the least.
Blizzard is suing MBC and possibly Ongamenet as well ( iP rights ), didnt u read the OP. Its rite there. GO READ IT. The whole thing started months ago, WHERE THE F**** have u been?
I wonder whats gonna happen to Proleague 10-11, seems like its not gonna evolve as planned, thats really sad news; on the other hand if Proleague ends I expect more Sc1 pros switching to SC2 so we can have better games at future GLS tournies.
Blizzard is suing MBC and possibly Ongamenet as well ( iP rights ), didnt u read the OP. Its rite there. GO READ IT. The whole thing started months ago, WHERE THE F**** have u been?
I'm sorry, why are you overreacting to something like that? Is it really that hard for you to at least be civilized and direct him to OP without criticizing him?
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
Pretty much sums up Activision-Blizzard.
Pretty much sums up capitalism.
Doing something well and doing something badly can both be attributed to capitalism. I understand you are trying to be cynical, but this is one of the worst ways this could be resolved and they willingly chose to do it. Might have been a long term disaster, which at least I don't know. The imminent effects can be seen here in this thread, and most of us were huge Blizzard fans.
What does it have to do with cynicism?
The free market drives companies to seek every advantage they can.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
Pretty much sums up Activision-Blizzard.
Pretty much sums up capitalism.
Doing something well and doing something badly can both be attributed to capitalism. I understand you are trying to be cynical, but this is one of the worst ways this could be resolved and they willingly chose to do it. Might have been a long term disaster, which at least I don't know. The imminent effects can be seen here in this thread, and most of us were huge Blizzard fans.
What does it have to do with cynicism?
The free market drives companies to seek every advantage they can.
It is cynical, because bad business moves which are unethical and damage your own business are bad from a capitalist standpoint. The unethical part here is synonymous with the damaging the business part here, not because unethical behaviour is frowned upon in general. And in the long term, antagonism from major E-sports supporters and of the only E-sports industry in the world is NOT good for business.
I cant believe Gretech-Blizzard are actually doing this. I just hope that the Korean community dont let them destroy this. I will never buy another Blizzard game, thats for sure.
On October 24 2010 15:59 darmousseh wrote: There is no argument here. Blizzard owns the IP copyright and they are allowed to control it's broadcasting. Blizzard not enforcing it for a couple years doesn't mean they still don't own it. Imagine how pissed disney would get if some company went around selling micky mouse stuff for 10 years and then claimed that they owned it since they built a community around it for 10 years. 10 years is a short time and time doesn't matter anyway when it comes to this stuff. Yes kespa helped sc1 become popular, but they did it without the blessing of blizzard and when blizzard came to give them their blessing for a price, they refused and even cancled gretech stuff by forcing the players to not participate.
Blizzard will win, no matter what anyone thinks.
That's a horrible example, though. You example would make sense if it a theatre doing a play for 10 years where the actors all wore Mickey Mouse customer, requiring people to pay to see the play. As a result, more people bought and wore Mickey Mouse customes. As their play was built around using the Mickey Mouse customes, the theatre heavily resisted when Disney ordered them to stop the doing the play where they used the Mickey Mouse customes.
Whether or not Blizzard have the legal rights, the problem lies in how IP rights can be used very aggressively, to an extent where it doesn't seem fair or reasonale. The product is the tournament, the skilled players, the coverage, not the game of Starcraft itself. They have paid for the copies of the game they use to carry out the tournaments. As people have commented many times before, it's as absurd as trying to patent a sport - something everything is supposed to be able to use freely becomes limited due to the silliness of the legal system and aggressiveness of corporate goons.
Radioactive Lizzard have the right to do this. IP belongs to them. KeSPA were the bunch of morons many, many times. Thats all true.
but this doesnt mean i have to accept what lizzard is doing. I dont have to blindly worship them for making "awsome" games. I dont care that KeSPA made many mistakes. They were the funding stone of true esport. And great company Blizzard transformed into Activision Blizzard, the mutated version of previous, glorious form. The company that cares about IP rights when it comes to fighting with Korean PL, and in the same time copycated many ideas and design from warhammer or WH40k universes. I wont support SC2, if it live or die, i dont really care. Esport is what i really care and they dont want to turn sc2 into real esport, so i'm not going to support this noir diablo 3 noir any other active lizzard product. This is the thing they cannot sue me for. the rest may enjoy the games and pay if they really want. I dont.
Kespa is bad, no doubt there, it needs to improve conditions for players (remember JD trying to transfer but because of the kespa rules it was pretty much impossible for any team to pick him up)
No matter how much we hate kespa most of us here like broodwar and it's not really that bw stalls sc2 from happening. The games seems to be good enough to have captured a lot of peoples interest and the scene is growing so fast (so many players, streams and tourneys). So bw is not doing much harm to the sc2 scene at all.
So forget about all the shortcomings of kespa and support broodwar: the players, teams, tournaments and tv channels, which basically sums up to kespa.
On October 25 2010 04:28 Itachii wrote: Way to release crappy game so it can destroy perfect one with set pro scene I am glad i never bought anything from these pricks
Are you going to uninstall brood war and not watch any blizzard game such as bw again? Good riddance. Is it just me or are ppl really forgetting the fact that blizzard created Starcraft.
On October 25 2010 04:28 Itachii wrote: Way to release crappy game so it can destroy perfect one with set pro scene I am glad i never bought anything from these pricks
Are you going to uninstall brood war and not watch any blizzard game such as bw again? Good riddance. Is it just me or are ppl really forgetting the fact that blizzard created Starcraft.
yup blizzard created Starcraft and I love BLIZZARD for that. but now we have Activision Blizzard and well i Hate them ! and mb some Nerdy BW kid will rage and bomb down the blizzard studios.
On October 25 2010 07:33 Husmusen wrote: Sure blizzard created starcraft but had nothing to do with the pro scene and how it got so big
I'd be willing to say that the balance changes probably played a big role in the development of eSports... Assuming the balance wouldn't have been as tight as it is since ... 1.8(?) do you think it would still be as popular as it is right now?
On October 23 2010 09:44 teamsolid wrote: What are the Korean netizen reactions?
On PlayXP they seem to be hoping that Kespa dies
I feel like this is the general consensus even on TL among people who don't just blindly hate Blizzard because they're owned by Activision or w/e.
If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
This, holy shit why is everyone jumping on the "we hate blizzard" bandwagon when KeSPA has been doing shit like forcing Proleague to continue after refusing to negotiate.
The Koreans are sick and tired of KeSPA's immature actions, why is everyone here trying to enshrine KeSPA as if they can do no wrong? Every time I read one of these articles I think "How can KeSPA even get away with doing this shit?" and "wow, are they really..?"
On October 23 2010 09:44 teamsolid wrote: What are the Korean netizen reactions?
On PlayXP they seem to be hoping that Kespa dies
I feel like this is the general consensus even on TL among people who don't just blindly hate Blizzard because they're owned by Activision or w/e.
If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
This, holy shit why is everyone jumping on the "we hate blizzard" bandwagon when KeSPA has been doing shit like forcing Proleague to continue after refusing to negotiate.
The Koreans are sick and tired of KeSPA's immature actions, why is everyone here trying to enshrine KeSPA as if they can do no wrong? Every time I read one of these articles I think "How can KeSPA even get away with doing this shit?" and "wow, are they really..?"
Holy shit why is everyone jumping on the "we hate kespa" bandwagon when Blizzard has been trying to stop the BW scene after SC2 is released.
The foreign fans are sick and tired of Blizzard's capitalist actions, why is everyone here trying to enshrine Blizzard as if they're doing what is best for E-Sports? Every time I read one of these articles I think "How can Blizzard even get away with outright lying to everybody?" and "wow, did they really said they don't have the resources to help SC1?"
On October 23 2010 09:44 teamsolid wrote: What are the Korean netizen reactions?
On PlayXP they seem to be hoping that Kespa dies
I feel like this is the general consensus even on TL among people who don't just blindly hate Blizzard because they're owned by Activision or w/e.
If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
This, holy shit why is everyone jumping on the "we hate blizzard" bandwagon when KeSPA has been doing shit like forcing Proleague to continue after refusing to negotiate.
The Koreans are sick and tired of KeSPA's immature actions, why is everyone here trying to enshrine KeSPA as if they can do no wrong? Every time I read one of these articles I think "How can KeSPA even get away with doing this shit?" and "wow, are they really..?"
But the argument isn't about hating Blizzard or hating KeSPA. It's about how Blizzard has never had a strong reaction to the BW proscene until now, when Starcraft 2 is jettisoning off as a legitimate e-sport.
It just makes it look like Blizzard is trying to stuff SC2 into the spotlight. For Starcraft 2 that's fine because it's had more viewers than BW has had in a long time.
Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
They would do it because it has a chance to sell more copies?
I mean most game developers don't care about esports, they would rather profit from a good casual friendly product.... But that's not cause there is no incentive, it's cause it's much harder to develop a game that is good for an advanced level of competition.
Also on the flipside if your post, if blizzard seizes total control over their products in esports it will basically shut down the extremely competitive aspect of esports, and turn it into their casual vision of esports.
Do you think blizzard would come close to running leagues like BW has in korea?
So how come all the other competative computer games lacks companies whining about IP? I don't see Valve moaning about where and when CS/TF2 is played, nor have I seen them claim the right to the replays/insight into the companies/having the final word about accepting every tournament etc.
To be honest, in all the years of games being televised/streamed and cups/tourneys/competitions being held, this is the first time a game developer wants to obstruct the free advertising they get from it.
I guess it's just because the average game developer company has more common sense than Activision Blizzard does.
On October 25 2010 09:34 Woosung wrote: So how come all the other competative computer games lacks companies whining about IP? I don't see Valve moaning about where and when CS/TF2 is played, nor have I seen them claim the right to the replays/insight into the companies/having the final word about accepting every tournament etc.
To be honest, in all the years of games being televised/streamed and cups/tourneys/competitions being held, this is the first time a game developer wants to obstruct the free advertising they get from it.
I guess it's just because the average game developer company has more common sense than Activision Blizzard does.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
They would do it because it has a chance to sell more copies?
I mean most game developers don't care about esports, they would rather profit from a good casual friendly product.... But that's not cause there is no incentive, it's cause it's much harder to develop a game that is good for an advanced level of competition.
Also on the flipside if your post, if blizzard seizes total control over their products in esports it will basically shut down the extremely competitive aspect of esports, and turn it into their casual vision of esports.
Do you think blizzard would come close to running leagues like BW has in korea?
Who are you comparing Blizzard to...? Are you talking about gomTV? Kinda confusing.
Edit: Oh wrong company. Replace Blizzard with Gretech
What people don't realize is that both companies are really bad at competitive market. Both want it all and won't stop at anything for it.
KeSPA: We've been in charge for a long time and know what we're doing therefore we know what the audience wants. We've managed this before so get out and leave the tournaments to professionals.
Blizzard: We're the creators of the game and now we want to broadcast our games ourselves. We gave a license to GomTV to act as the professionals and they've done just fine. Our games, our rules, we control everything as we see fit.
In KeSPA's case, they're extremely immature and will do stunts that hurt both players and audience just to protest against Blizzard setting foot in their territory (remember how GomTV used to be up and running and now it's dead because KeSPA didn't want their players in the tournament)? They really need to stop with their "hero role" becuase they're far from being the hero in E-Sports. I doubt they even know what their audience wants.
In Blizzard's case, they're just out for some much control that it's alarming. Some could say that the players are contracted by Blizzard and get paid accordingly through their teams (not sure how progame teams fund themselves or how their sponsers work or what sponsers they have). So in essence, it's not really much different. KeSPA is just making the deal bigger than it is because if Blizzard doesn't have total control, KeSPA still does. I can see the right to audit can be scary from one business to another as they could just roflstomp them and take everything.
Blizzard needs to be less harsh so that the TV stations and the organization don't die trying to run it legally while KeSPA simply needs to manner up.
The reason everyone needs to realize why blizzard is going after MBC and OGN is because that is their strongest case. It will be very hard in court to prove that blizzard has the right to organize leagues and tournaments solely, however, it is very easy to show that broadcasting their IP is a violation of the TOS. Blizzard wants sc1 to go on, they just want MBC and OGN to respect their IP rights when it comes to broadcasting games. Similarly, FIFA owned the rights to the world cup since it was their tournament. It doesn't mean that they are the only ones that can organize soccer games or even create leagues, but it does mean that all broadcasting of FIFA games must be approved by the organization. This is an easily handled issue and blizzard will win quickly and swiftly. I also expect an injunction to work and for kespa to quickly agree to any terms blizzard has.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Having a game played professionally is great (and free) advertising for the game.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
Pretty much sums up Activision-Blizzard.
Pretty much sums up capitalism.
Doing something well and doing something badly can both be attributed to capitalism. I understand you are trying to be cynical, but this is one of the worst ways this could be resolved and they willingly chose to do it. Might have been a long term disaster, which at least I don't know. The imminent effects can be seen here in this thread, and most of us were huge Blizzard fans.
What does it have to do with cynicism?
The free market drives companies to seek every advantage they can.
It is cynical, because bad business moves which are unethical and damage your own business are bad from a capitalist standpoint. The unethical part here is synonymous with the damaging the business part here, not because unethical behaviour is frowned upon in general. And in the long term, antagonism from major E-sports supporters and of the only E-sports industry in the world is NOT good for business.
What is unethical about it? Blizzard is trying to make rather vague laws work for it. No doubt MBC is trying to do the same thing. Someone has to do it eventually or else the laws will stay vague.
As for damaging their business...maybe. Still, Blizzard can hardly just sit there, see bad numbers in Korea, and do nothing. Capitalism pushes them forward.
On October 25 2010 10:54 dybydx wrote: if they are suing in the Korean courts, i m pretty sure Blizz will lose, cause even in USA, their charges looked weak.
They've already won cases like this in the USA, and are almost certain to win in Korea.
On October 25 2010 10:54 dybydx wrote: if they are suing in the Korean courts, i m pretty sure Blizz will lose, cause even in USA, their charges looked weak.
They've already won cases like this in the USA, and are almost certain to win in Korea.
Except this time they're going against the Korean government on Korean soil. Good Luck.
On October 25 2010 10:54 dybydx wrote: if they are suing in the Korean courts, i m pretty sure Blizz will lose, cause even in USA, their charges looked weak.
They've already won cases like this in the USA, and are almost certain to win in Korea.
Source please? Because slight variations in circumstance could cause a different outcome. I seem to recall something like that with 2 supreme court cases.
On October 25 2010 13:08 d(O.o)a wrote: If anything, blizzard should be thanking them for making starcraft as huge as it is.
If anything, KeSPA should be thanking them for making starcraft at all.
See what I did there? It goes both ways - There is no easy solution to this issue - IP rights are going to be important with the future of esports, and having companies that will promote your games will be important as well. There is no point in taking sides. Not having progames sucks - however making Esports functional, practical, profitable, and having an incentive for companies, sponsors, and game makers will be important in the spread beyond korea of it. Esports hardly happens naturally, particularly not in the west. The first step will be setting up the functionality of IP rights.
On October 25 2010 04:28 Itachii wrote: Way to release crappy game so it can destroy perfect one with set pro scene I am glad i never bought anything from these pricks
Are you going to uninstall brood war and not watch any blizzard game such as bw again? Good riddance. Is it just me or are ppl really forgetting the fact that blizzard created Starcraft.
yup blizzard created Starcraft and I love BLIZZARD for that. but now we have Activision Blizzard and well i Hate them ! and mb some Nerdy BW kid will rage and bomb down the blizzard studios.
User was warned for this post
As fun as that seems and as close as it is to me, I can't due to legal reasons. Not to mention it would probably hurt our PR. ): Gogo MBC!
On October 25 2010 10:54 dybydx wrote: if they are suing in the Korean courts, i m pretty sure Blizz will lose, cause even in USA, their charges looked weak.
They've already won cases like this in the USA, and are almost certain to win in Korea.
Except this time they're going against the Korean government on Korean soil. Good Luck.
This doesn't matter. IP is a part of international law. All UN body members have agreed to a set of standards when it comes to copyright. Blizzard stopping people from hosting tournaments probably is not possible, but preventing it from being broadcasted is well within their reach. I don't think blizzard intends to shut down sc1, but just make sure that gretech is the one in charge of handing out subliscences, not kespa.
Dude don't worry guys. There will probably be an underground BW scene. Like I can imagine a bunch of up and comers sitting in a dark basement having a tournament which tons of people are watching online. The cops would probably come and try to bust the tournament like in the movies and all the players will have to run away. It's gonna be awesome.
On October 25 2010 14:57 darmousseh wrote: I don't think blizzard intends to shut down sc1, but just make sure that gretech is the one in charge of handing out subliscences, not kespa.
Effectively shutting down sc1. GSL monopoly and forcing the big names to play SC2 is exactly what blizz/gretech want.
On October 24 2010 15:02 gozima wrote: The popularity of BW in Korea is stifling sales of SC2 there. Blizzard doesn't give a fuck about e-sports, they make money by selling games, not hosting tournaments.
They probably saw what Boxer in GSL did to spur interest in SC2 in Korea, and decided that getting Flash, JD, and crew to switch over to SC2 asap was in their best interest.
Pretty much sums up Activision-Blizzard.
Pretty much sums up capitalism.
Doing something well and doing something badly can both be attributed to capitalism. I understand you are trying to be cynical, but this is one of the worst ways this could be resolved and they willingly chose to do it. Might have been a long term disaster, which at least I don't know. The imminent effects can be seen here in this thread, and most of us were huge Blizzard fans.
What does it have to do with cynicism?
The free market drives companies to seek every advantage they can.
It is cynical, because bad business moves which are unethical and damage your own business are bad from a capitalist standpoint. The unethical part here is synonymous with the damaging the business part here, not because unethical behaviour is frowned upon in general. And in the long term, antagonism from major E-sports supporters and of the only E-sports industry in the world is NOT good for business.
What is unethical about it? Blizzard is trying to make rather vague laws work for it. No doubt MBC is trying to do the same thing. Someone has to do it eventually or else the laws will stay vague.
As for damaging their business...maybe. Still, Blizzard can hardly just sit there, see bad numbers in Korea, and do nothing. Capitalism pushes them forward.
It is unethical to use aggressive, violent means in order to create artificial scarcity of non-scarce ends!
On October 25 2010 15:53 madnessman wrote: Dude don't worry guys. There will probably be an underground BW scene. Like I can imagine a bunch of up and comers sitting in a dark basement having a tournament which tons of people are watching online. The cops would probably come and try to bust the tournament like in the movies and all the players will have to run away. It's gonna be awesome.
On October 25 2010 07:33 Husmusen wrote: Sure blizzard created starcraft but had nothing to do with the pro scene and how it got so big
I'd be willing to say that the balance changes probably played a big role in the development of eSports... Assuming the balance wouldn't have been as tight as it is since ... 1.8(?) do you think it would still be as popular as it is right now?
On October 23 2010 09:44 teamsolid wrote: What are the Korean netizen reactions?
On PlayXP they seem to be hoping that Kespa dies
I feel like this is the general consensus even on TL among people who don't just blindly hate Blizzard because they're owned by Activision or w/e.
If this lawsuit leads to the downfall of KeSPA I'm all for it. BW can and will survive without them. Every time a new detail comes out about KeSPA's actions it just makes them look less and less professional, and more and more like slime ball capitalists who could care less about the hard work that was put into making the game they make their living off of. Sure they did a lot for esports at a time when Korea needed a distraction, but a little humility would go a long way. Without Blizzard, BW wouldn't exist, and somehow they want to pretend they don't owe their livelihoods to that company.
This, holy shit why is everyone jumping on the "we hate blizzard" bandwagon when KeSPA has been doing shit like forcing Proleague to continue after refusing to negotiate.
The Koreans are sick and tired of KeSPA's immature actions, why is everyone here trying to enshrine KeSPA as if they can do no wrong? Every time I read one of these articles I think "How can KeSPA even get away with doing this shit?" and "wow, are they really..?"
Where did the 'refuse to negotiate' thing come from? Blizzard made a list of (ridiculous) demands and KeSPA decided not to agree. There was no more negotiations to have and they are willing to defend in court.
what's with all these comments about "Blizzard wants to shut down BW"? what the hell does Blizzard stand to gain from pissing off the majority of e-sport audiences in Korea?
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
Actually his post is spot-on, you're just ignoring what he's saying and writing your own. If companies can see revenue streams beyond the develop->sell model they will be inclined to pursue them. Develop->sell->broadcast rights model doesn't lend itself to high product volume, so you are more likely to see developers stick to titles that fit this model longer and more thoroughly.
Moreover, called KeSPA a success or failure at this point is moot, they are obviously a failure since they've attracted so much wrath from the IP owner. Moreover, how many times have we whaled on KeSPA for shit over the last few years? While things are decent, they are by no means angels. Right now eSports needs a body like KeSPA, but it also needs a player's union - KeSPA being both in one hurts so bad.
Either way, his point is spot on - there's no reason to develop a competitive title if there's no means to eek a profit from it. Naturally, competitive titles won't sell as well as casual ones; however, require more investment and follow through. If the developer can see a new stream of revenue through IP management, it can offset that cost burden and make supporting competitive titles over a long period of time a smart business venture.
On October 24 2010 06:03 e4e5nf3 wrote: I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
Well, it is a wise idea for Blizzard. Look at it this way: people that have stayed with BW obviously think its a better game (both play-wise and spectator-wise). If they can shit on the whole BW e-sports scene in SK, then they are guaranteed to have some viewers and players make the switch. Although Blizzard made the game, and appears to have the law on its side, we have to remember that the lawsuit is going to be settled in SK and not in US and I sincerely hope that Blizzard gets raped in court so we can continue to have PL.
On October 25 2010 09:34 Woosung wrote: So how come all the other competative computer games lacks companies whining about IP? I don't see Valve moaning about where and when CS/TF2 is played, nor have I seen them claim the right to the replays/insight into the companies/having the final word about accepting every tournament etc.
To be honest, in all the years of games being televised/streamed and cups/tourneys/competitions being held, this is the first time a game developer wants to obstruct the free advertising they get from it.
I guess it's just because the average game developer company has more common sense than Activision Blizzard does.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
Actually his post is spot-on, you're just ignoring what he's saying and writing your own. If companies can see revenue streams beyond the develop->sell model they will be inclined to pursue them. Develop->sell->broadcast rights model doesn't lend itself to high product volume, so you are more likely to see developers stick to titles that fit this model longer and more thoroughly.
Moreover, called KeSPA a success or failure at this point is moot, they are obviously a failure since they've attracted so much wrath from the IP owner. Moreover, how many times have we whaled on KeSPA for shit over the last few years? While things are decent, they are by no means angels. Right now eSports needs a body like KeSPA, but it also needs a player's union - KeSPA being both in one hurts so bad.
Either way, his point is spot on - there's no reason to develop a competitive title if there's no means to eek a profit from it. Naturally, competitive titles won't sell as well as casual ones; however, require more investment and follow through. If the developer can see a new stream of revenue through IP management, it can offset that cost burden and make supporting competitive titles over a long period of time a smart business venture.
I don't think so. The poster's argument is based on the assumption that without the developers controlling their game in terms of the e-sports industry, "e-sports fizzles and dies."
He's assuming that we're stuck with watching "casual gamers" in a world where businesses don't have access to their IP rights, but that's impurically denied. We've watched Korean BW all these years without Blizzard intervention, proving that e-sports doesn't die without the gaming company that's running it.
Blizzard has had very little linkage with Korea's successful Starcraft programs...if at all any links.
And the argument that competitive titles don't sell as well...are you saying like...competitive games or just competitive in terms of popularity.
Because I'll argue that a lot of times, we buy games that are fun, and not "competitive".
But once again, I'll reiterate, the argument isn't whether or not the decision is the right thing to do. The argument is that Blizzard has never cared about copyrights in the past. And the recent introduction of SC2 as an e-sport inherently makes Blizzard look they're trying to stuff SC2 into the picture.
On October 24 2010 06:03 e4e5nf3 wrote: I dont think this is a wise idea for Blizzard. They obviously want the current BW audience to transfer over to SC2, but by doing it this way they are just pissing off the people. Much better just to have a gradual, natural shift from one game to the other, even if it takes years.
Well, it is a wise idea for Blizzard. Look at it this way: people that have stayed with BW obviously think its a better game (both play-wise and spectator-wise). If they can shit on the whole BW e-sports scene in SK, then they are guaranteed to have some viewers and players make the switch. Although Blizzard made the game, and appears to have the law on its side, we have to remember that the lawsuit is going to be settled in SK and not in US and I sincerely hope that Blizzard gets raped in court so we can continue to have PL.
So you're argument is that it's good because Blizzard gets to disallow what a lot of people on TL have loved for years and force them through channels that they don't want to watch?
On October 25 2010 15:53 madnessman wrote: Dude don't worry guys. There will probably be an underground BW scene. Like I can imagine a bunch of up and comers sitting in a dark basement having a tournament which tons of people are watching online. The cops would probably come and try to bust the tournament like in the movies and all the players will have to run away. It's gonna be awesome.
Ah hah that's awesome and nearly made me hope of Blizzard winning the trial. :p But no way it's gonna be that wonderful if Blizzard wins.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Zerg: People beat that horse a lot... the "Blizz never cared until now!" one... but actually this has been going on for 3 years. I've stated this in other threads; but to repeat, Blizz began chasing KeSPA when KeSPA began turning profits made on their events to fund competitive game development. All of KeSPA's game ventures, assisted through the Ministry of Culture, have been shit games. Effective, once KeSPA went from casual parasite to trying to be full usurper is when Blizz became aggressive.
People love to say, "But,KeSPA makes no money!" Lovely, I tell the government that too when I don't pay my taxes. I'm sure they'll keep believing me. Fact is, KeSPA has funded the development of games (all shit) and that money didn't just appear from the stars.
It is one thing to use an IP, it is another to use it for profit, and it is another to take said profit and attack the original IP.
Also, you and others state Blizz had nothing to do with esports... that's a cute notion, but, whereas we can successfully ponder the existence and strength of BW today sans KeSPA we cannot sans BW. Therefore, by logic, the notion that Blizz, the creator of BW, means nothing, is null.
Anyway, this case will be interesting because it is effective Blizz vs. MoC. If MoC decide to win because they are the government and some American company can go fuck themselves they open the doors for every single Korean IP to be pirated to oblivion. If they allow Blizz to win they are effectively left with egg on their faces by a foreign interest. Lose, lose for the MoC.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Employees.....working for free.....say what? Also....doesn't that have nothing to do with running tournaments?
And sk': Good point. I concede. But I stand firm by the belief that Blizzard had very little to do with e-sports. Regardless of KeSPA's involvement, Blizzard didn't turn Starcraft BW into a dominating e-sport for the last decade.
Instead, it was the Starcraft community that banded together and created a game that was worth playing on a global competitive level. If Blizzard is suing for the sole purpose of turning their "e-sport made game" into an even more....e-sporty....game (sorta doesn't make sense in retrospect), then I find that a bit distasteful and sad.
I find funny people who dismiss that Kespa is a non-profit organization because it is formed for companies. Kespa could be formed for the 2000 biggest companies in the world and would continue to be non-profit and it is not different to any non-profit organization (most of them sponsored for big companies or very rich people), Kespa companies obtain as a reward: "good image" but it is still a non-profit organization, so actually I dont know if it is important to the matter but you cant refuse that fact.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Regardless of KeSPA's involvement, Blizzard didn't turn Starcraft BW into a dominating e-sport for the last decade.
Tournament organizers don't make the game - players do. The only reason there are players, and that it evolved into a professional platform, is because BLIZZARD made such a great game.
It's not hard to be successful when you're selling a product that sells itself, especially when someone else did all the work of making it for you. KeSPA didn't fight some huge battle of making SCBW popular - if you want to see how hard it is to make a game popular, just look at all the other failing tournament organizers who have tried to push games (even big names) like Quake. WSVG, ESWC, CPL, CGS, AGP, etc... SC fans should feel lucky that the game is popular enough to have such an easy ride to the top, even if it is deserving.
On October 25 2010 07:33 Husmusen wrote: Sure blizzard created starcraft but had nothing to do with the pro scene and how it got so big
I'd be willing to say that the balance changes probably played a big role in the development of eSports... Assuming the balance wouldn't have been as tight as it is since ... 1.8(?) do you think it would still be as popular as it is right now?
When was last balance patch? 2001?
I'm aware of this, but would you rather see the game as it was prior to 1.8? Either way, the last balance patch made it as close to balance as Blizzard wanted it to be, as far as we know. They could have easily made more attempts at perfectly balancing the game (AKA not balanced via maps) but that would have caused more imbalances in the way. BW is as tightly balance and it will ever be, AFAIK it's also the best balanced RTS ever. (Factoring map balancing)
On October 25 2010 22:15 sk` wrote: Zerg: People beat that horse a lot... the "Blizz never cared until now!" one... but actually this has been going on for 3 years. I've stated this in other threads; but to repeat, Blizz began chasing KeSPA when KeSPA began turning profits made on their events to fund competitive game development. All of KeSPA's game ventures, assisted through the Ministry of Culture, have been shit games. Effective, once KeSPA went from casual parasite to trying to be full usurper is when Blizz became aggressive.
People love to say, "But,KeSPA makes no money!" Lovely, I tell the government that too when I don't pay my taxes. I'm sure they'll keep believing me. Fact is, KeSPA has funded the development of games (all shit) and that money didn't just appear from the stars.
It is one thing to use an IP, it is another to use it for profit, and it is another to take said profit and attack the original IP.
Also, you and others state Blizz had nothing to do with esports... that's a cute notion, but, whereas we can successfully ponder the existence and strength of BW today sans KeSPA we cannot sans BW. Therefore, by logic, the notion that Blizz, the creator of BW, means nothing, is null.
Anyway, this case will be interesting because it is effective Blizz vs. MoC. If MoC decide to win because they are the government and some American company can go fuck themselves they open the doors for every single Korean IP to be pirated to oblivion. If they allow Blizz to win they are effectively left with egg on their faces by a foreign interest. Lose, lose for the MoC.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Regardless of KeSPA's involvement, Blizzard didn't turn Starcraft BW into a dominating e-sport for the last decade.
Tournament organizers don't make the game - players do. The only reason there are players, and that it evolved into a professional platform, is because BLIZZARD made such a great game.
It's not hard to be successful when you're selling a product that sells itself, especially when someone else did all the work of making it for you. KeSPA didn't fight some huge battle of making SCBW popular - if you want to see how hard it is to make a game popular, just look at all the other failing tournament organizers who have tried to push games (even big names) like Quake. WSVG, ESWC, CPL, CGS, AGP, etc... SC fans should feel lucky that the game is popular enough to have such an easy ride to the top, even if it is deserving.
You are completely wrong, and the reality show this to you, if the product is so good and it is the same in every little part in the world, why we dont have e-sports in every country, you deliberately put aside the others variables that made e-sports posible: fans and sponsors (Kespa) and broadcasters. By the way you are calling a scene that has evolved during 10 years an easy ride?lol, you are blind or you dont know anything about business, but for sure you are not even close to be right.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Regardless of KeSPA's involvement, Blizzard didn't turn Starcraft BW into a dominating e-sport for the last decade.
Tournament organizers don't make the game - players do. The only reason there are players, and that it evolved into a professional platform, is because BLIZZARD made such a great game.
It's not hard to be successful when you're selling a product that sells itself, especially when someone else did all the work of making it for you. KeSPA didn't fight some huge battle of making SCBW popular - if you want to see how hard it is to make a game popular, just look at all the other failing tournament organizers who have tried to push games (even big names) like Quake. WSVG, ESWC, CPL, CGS, AGP, etc... SC fans should feel lucky that the game is popular enough to have such an easy ride to the top, even if it is deserving.
You are completely wrong, and the reality show this to you, if the product is so good and it is the same in every little part in the world, why we dont have e-sports in every country, you deliberately put aside the others variables that made e-sports posible: fans and sponsors (Kespa) and broadcasters. By the way you are calling a scene that has evolved during 10 years an easy ride?lol, you are blind or you dont know anything about business, but for sure you are not even close to be right.
What do other countries have to do with it? It's like asking why Halo isn't big in South Korea - it doesn't appeal to the market. It was hugely popular in South Korea, KeSPA took advantage of the popularity, end of story.
Fans exist because of the game, and sponsors will go wherever there is a market. KeSPA also supports such silliness as "Special Force" and "Sudden Attack". Starcraft was out for a mere 2 years before being broadcast - that's a pretty easy ride. It got where it is because it's a good game, and nothing more. You obviously haven't been around the gaming scene very long, or you'd know that you can't just throw money at a game to make it popular. Quake has had all the tournament support in the world, but the game is still losing players. Painkiller had a $1,000,000 world tour, and had 17 players. CGS actually had TV time, teams, and a real player salary system, but STILL failed.
No tournament organizer in the world can make up for a bad game, but even a shitty organizer like KeSPA can bank on Starcraft.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Employees.....working for free.....say what? Also....doesn't that have nothing to do with running tournaments?
Exactly, so what has KeSPA contributed to eSport that's so extraordinary that there's no way Blizzard can do the same? That's what you guys all seem to keep on arguing right?
Honestly, Blizzard should do whatever they please. They are the innovators of StarCraft, afterall. Obviously, without Blizzard their wouldn't be any E-Sports to begin with.
Here's an example: If you created a video game and a foreign company was broadcasting your product by hosting national televised tournaments and dishing out vast quantities of money; wouldn't you want a piece of the pie for it being your product to begin with? (This is related to Blizzard not profiting from Pro League) But, I don't know Blizzard profited or not, I'm just going by what I've read and heard from threads on this site.
However, It's a clever plan to force people to switch from SC-1 to SC-2. If there's no popularity/Broadcasting/National Tournaments then the games dead and what does that leave? It leaves StarCraft 2. No matter how much the Koreans despise Blizzard after the suit takes place; they will STILL end up transitioning to Starcraft 2 and that's because of their love for the game and competition.
On October 26 2010 04:59 scbw_forever wrote: Blizzard must pay to korean players who made BW so beautiful game and to Kespa, if not Proleague nobody would give a shit about SC2.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Regardless of KeSPA's involvement, Blizzard didn't turn Starcraft BW into a dominating e-sport for the last decade.
Tournament organizers don't make the game - players do. The only reason there are players, and that it evolved into a professional platform, is because BLIZZARD made such a great game.
It's not hard to be successful when you're selling a product that sells itself, especially when someone else did all the work of making it for you. KeSPA didn't fight some huge battle of making SCBW popular - if you want to see how hard it is to make a game popular, just look at all the other failing tournament organizers who have tried to push games (even big names) like Quake. WSVG, ESWC, CPL, CGS, AGP, etc... SC fans should feel lucky that the game is popular enough to have such an easy ride to the top, even if it is deserving.
You are completely wrong, and the reality show this to you, if the product is so good and it is the same in every little part in the world, why we dont have e-sports in every country, you deliberately put aside the others variables that made e-sports posible: fans and sponsors (Kespa) and broadcasters. By the way you are calling a scene that has evolved during 10 years an easy ride?lol, you are blind or you dont know anything about business, but for sure you are not even close to be right.
What do other countries have to do with it? It's like asking why Halo isn't big in South Korea - it doesn't appeal to the market. It was hugely popular in South Korea, KeSPA took advantage of the popularity, end of story.
Fans exist because of the game, and sponsors will go wherever there is a market. KeSPA also supports such silliness as "Special Force" and "Sudden Attack". Starcraft was out for a mere 2 years before being broadcast - that's a pretty easy ride. It got where it is because it's a good game, and nothing more. You obviously haven't been around the gaming scene very long, or you'd know that you can't just throw money at a game to make it popular. Quake has had all the tournament support in the world, but the game is still losing players. Painkiller had a $1,000,000 world tour, and had 17 players. CGS actually had TV time, teams, and a real player salary system, but STILL failed.
No tournament organizer in the world can make up for a bad game, but even a shitty organizer like KeSPA can bank on Starcraft.
lol, i have been in the gaming scene since longer than you I can assure that, what you dont know is about business my dear Verdic, all of this is about business and having a good structure around video games, so Kespa took advantage of the popularity?, what a simple statement, even soccer which is a cultural phenomenon around the world needed those structures to reach the top, but i give you something you cant throw money at a game to make it popular (sound like the forced SC2 scene), of course Blizzard has to be reconigzed, after all is the developer of the game, but dont try to understimate the work of others in this "miracle" called BW in Korea. I wont answer any other statement from you in the forum because I made my statement clear, if you think you need to discuss something with me pleas PM.
On October 26 2010 04:51 Respectfulwon wrote: However, It's a clever plan to force people to switch from SC-1 to SC-2. If there's no popularity/Broadcasting/National Tournaments then the games dead and what does that leave? It leaves StarCraft 2. No matter how much the Koreans despise Blizzard after the suit takes place; they will STILL end up transitioning to Starcraft 2 and that's because of their love for the game and competition.
Oh yeah? Guess what. I still dont want to wasting time and money for GSL or SC2, so their efforts were innefective in my case. If PL will die, i'm done with watching vods other than those from WCG.
EDIT: oh, sorry. I just read you was talking about Koreans.
On October 26 2010 04:51 Respectfulwon wrote: However, It's a clever plan to force people to switch from SC-1 to SC-2. If there's no popularity/Broadcasting/National Tournaments then the games dead and what does that leave? It leaves StarCraft 2. No matter how much the Koreans despise Blizzard after the suit takes place; they will STILL end up transitioning to Starcraft 2 and that's because of their love for the game and competition.
Oh yeah? Guess what. I still dont want to wasting time and money for GSL or SC2, so their efforts were innefective in my case. If PL will die, i'm done with watching vods other than those from WCG.
EDIT: oh, sorry. I just read you was talking about Koreans.
Yeah, I said that because the biggest Starcraft tournament(s) takes place in Korea. So, It's only natural for a competitive Korean gamer to want a slice of that pie just for playing a video game especially a video game that's so popular in their country. The only way I don't see the transition taking place is if the Korean government bans Starcraft 2 and if that we're the case then Blizzard would be screwed.
On October 25 2010 09:23 clampOK wrote: Very good news for the future of esports, even if it currently hinders SC1 as well as what KESPA has done for it. I will miss watching the games as well, but if IP rights of the game developer are not recognized now, then the future precedent will be that IP rights do not matter when it comes to broadcasting a game.
Now think about it, if game developers learn from this ordeal that they can not directly profit from marketing their own IP, given the current esports business model, why would any other game developers try to gear their games for competitive play? If this situation shows that short of micro transactions, developing an esports related title is not a good business decision for a game dev, esports will just fizzle and die, leaving the gaming industry looking at the casual gamers once again instead of the competitive.
Blizzard's got the juice now, and I hope they win against MBC even if it means the destruction of the sc1 scene in its path. We all love sc here at TL, but its safe to say we wouldn't have this passion without the esports/competitive side of it, so if we want any future ESPORTS, this move is integral.
my 2 cents
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Regardless of KeSPA's involvement, Blizzard didn't turn Starcraft BW into a dominating e-sport for the last decade.
Tournament organizers don't make the game - players do. The only reason there are players, and that it evolved into a professional platform, is because BLIZZARD made such a great game.
It's not hard to be successful when you're selling a product that sells itself, especially when someone else did all the work of making it for you. KeSPA didn't fight some huge battle of making SCBW popular - if you want to see how hard it is to make a game popular, just look at all the other failing tournament organizers who have tried to push games (even big names) like Quake. WSVG, ESWC, CPL, CGS, AGP, etc... SC fans should feel lucky that the game is popular enough to have such an easy ride to the top, even if it is deserving.
You are completely wrong, and the reality show this to you, if the product is so good and it is the same in every little part in the world, why we dont have e-sports in every country, you deliberately put aside the others variables that made e-sports posible: fans and sponsors (Kespa) and broadcasters. By the way you are calling a scene that has evolved during 10 years an easy ride?lol, you are blind or you dont know anything about business, but for sure you are not even close to be right.
What do other countries have to do with it? It's like asking why Halo isn't big in South Korea - it doesn't appeal to the market. It was hugely popular in South Korea, KeSPA took advantage of the popularity, end of story.
Fans exist because of the game, and sponsors will go wherever there is a market. KeSPA also supports such silliness as "Special Force" and "Sudden Attack". Starcraft was out for a mere 2 years before being broadcast - that's a pretty easy ride. It got where it is because it's a good game, and nothing more. You obviously haven't been around the gaming scene very long, or you'd know that you can't just throw money at a game to make it popular. Quake has had all the tournament support in the world, but the game is still losing players. Painkiller had a $1,000,000 world tour, and had 17 players. CGS actually had TV time, teams, and a real player salary system, but STILL failed.
No tournament organizer in the world can make up for a bad game, but even a shitty organizer like KeSPA can bank on Starcraft.
lol, i have been in the gaming scene since longer than you I can assure that, what you dont know is about business my dear Verdic, all of this is about business and having a good structure around video games, so Kespa took advantage of the popularity?, what a simple statement, even soccer which is a cultural phenomenon around the world needed those structures to reach the top, but i give you something you cant throw money at a game to make it popular (sound like the forced SC2 scene), of course Blizzard has to be reconigzed, after all is the developer of the game, but dont try to understimate the work of others in this "miracle" called BW in Korea. I wont answer any other statement from you in the forum because I made my statement clear, if you think you need to discuss something with me pleas PM.
We're talking about a game - not a sport. Sports needed structure far more simply because you couldn't play them from anywhere in the world, or at any time. If soccer wasn't popular to begin with, no structure in the world would have made it where it is today. UFC is a perfect example.
If you feel that SC2 is being forced, you're quite detached from the professional gaming scene.
On October 25 2010 17:48 infinity2k9 wrote: [quote]
Forgot to edit this in my post but this is the most ignorant completely backwards post i've ever seen in relation to the situation. Give game developers full control over eSports: then you have non-sustainable tiny niche eSports like every other game except BW. Notice the difference between KeSPA and every other organization in the world? That it actually works, for 10 years? With salaries for players and everything else. If you want Blizzards take on things SC2 will be dead when the next big game comes unless they force the money into themselves to keep it going.
are you really going to argue that Blizzard doesn't know how to run a successful and long-lasting business?
and you call other people "ignorant" and "backwards"?
lol?
No. I think the argument is that Blizzard can't run decent tournaments.
No. I think the argument is that KeSPA paid salaries and found sponsorships. I suppose Blizzard employees must work for free. What do you think?
Regardless of KeSPA's involvement, Blizzard didn't turn Starcraft BW into a dominating e-sport for the last decade.
Tournament organizers don't make the game - players do. The only reason there are players, and that it evolved into a professional platform, is because BLIZZARD made such a great game.
It's not hard to be successful when you're selling a product that sells itself, especially when someone else did all the work of making it for you. KeSPA didn't fight some huge battle of making SCBW popular - if you want to see how hard it is to make a game popular, just look at all the other failing tournament organizers who have tried to push games (even big names) like Quake. WSVG, ESWC, CPL, CGS, AGP, etc... SC fans should feel lucky that the game is popular enough to have such an easy ride to the top, even if it is deserving.
You are completely wrong, and the reality show this to you, if the product is so good and it is the same in every little part in the world, why we dont have e-sports in every country, you deliberately put aside the others variables that made e-sports posible: fans and sponsors (Kespa) and broadcasters. By the way you are calling a scene that has evolved during 10 years an easy ride?lol, you are blind or you dont know anything about business, but for sure you are not even close to be right.
What do other countries have to do with it? It's like asking why Halo isn't big in South Korea - it doesn't appeal to the market. It was hugely popular in South Korea, KeSPA took advantage of the popularity, end of story.
Fans exist because of the game, and sponsors will go wherever there is a market. KeSPA also supports such silliness as "Special Force" and "Sudden Attack". Starcraft was out for a mere 2 years before being broadcast - that's a pretty easy ride. It got where it is because it's a good game, and nothing more. You obviously haven't been around the gaming scene very long, or you'd know that you can't just throw money at a game to make it popular. Quake has had all the tournament support in the world, but the game is still losing players. Painkiller had a $1,000,000 world tour, and had 17 players. CGS actually had TV time, teams, and a real player salary system, but STILL failed.
No tournament organizer in the world can make up for a bad game, but even a shitty organizer like KeSPA can bank on Starcraft.
lol, i have been in the gaming scene since longer than you I can assure that, what you dont know is about business my dear Verdic, all of this is about business and having a good structure around video games, so Kespa took advantage of the popularity?, what a simple statement, even soccer which is a cultural phenomenon around the world needed those structures to reach the top, but i give you something you cant throw money at a game to make it popular (sound like the forced SC2 scene), of course Blizzard has to be reconigzed, after all is the developer of the game, but dont try to understimate the work of others in this "miracle" called BW in Korea. I wont answer any other statement from you in the forum because I made my statement clear, if you think you need to discuss something with me pleas PM.
We're talking about a game - not a sport. Sports needed structure far more simply because you couldn't play them from anywhere in the world, or at any time. If soccer wasn't popular to begin with, no structure in the world would have made it where it is today. UFC is a perfect example.
If you feel that SC2 is being forced, you're quite detached from the professional gaming scene.
Many of the veteran TL users and followers of the pro scene keep berating people new to the scene or new to SC2 who side with Blizzard. But I'm wondering: why exactly? Isn't siding with Blizzard the logical consequence if you join this whole topic/discussion as an outsider who's read up on it a bit?
I've been casually following SC progaming since the days of Boxer, but with decreasing interest over the years - not enough time for gaming, stopped being active in SC/BW etc. I did watch a replay or VOD now and then, but I didn't even know Kespa existed until I read the first of many topics about the struggle here on TL. So I consider myself a fan of the game, but also an "outsider" to this whole Kespa/Blizzard thing.
Since I wanted to take part in the discussion I tried to get my hands on as many sources as possible. Forum discussion, articles on other sites, interviews etc. And the consensus of most sources pretty much is:
regarding Kespa/Korean Esports scene:
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
regarding Blizzard:
- didn't care about IP rights for years after SC/BW's release - but didn't start caring only recently; it's been 3 years after all - tolerated the game being pirated and played on non-Blizzard servers for a very long time, despite copyright issues being a major topic in the industry
All the rest - IP laws (US and Korean), possible influence of Activision, reasons for Blizzards course (money? actual worries about IP?) are things we all can only guess about (that includes all the veteran folks).
So you have two sides here. Both haven't done everything right. Both could have been more diplomatic. Sure. Korean Esports is free advertising for Blizz. Sure. Korean Esports may have helped Blizzard/Starcraft's fame. But Blizzard actually created the product everything's about, while the Kespa only uses it. To what extent Blizzard chooses to use their property rights is another topic, but that they have a RIGHT to do so seems clear (even without majoring in law).
Personally, I may be a little bit biased. I'm a self-employed instructor and working with scripts I wrote myself (which were a lot of work). I have no trouble with people using my scripts to learn, and most of the time I don't care if they copy them for colleagues or personal use. But whenever I wish something - anything - concerning those scripts, be it use, spreading, revisions or anything else, I fully expect my wishes to be taken seriously, because it's my work after all and I have the last word regarding it. And I don't see why it should be any different with Blizzard and their games.
How many of SCBW fans are going to the matches to watch the artwork of the game. All those 16x16 pixel units in 256 colors in a 640x480 resolution, with a poor quality sound are really visually appealing. Right? The reality is no one cares about the artwork. What people care the most is the games being played. That's the reason I've been on this site for so many years. I want to watch those kids do things I could never dream of doing. That's what really makes SCBW the one and only true eSport in the world. Like many other sports, people are watching the performers, not the sport itself. This basically means that you CAN NOT simply compare eSports to other copyrighted material like music or movies and say Blizz has all the rights.
On the other side, it happened before that courts actually took into consideration what is in the best public interest. Just look at the Microsoft vs European Union example. EU practically forced Microsoft to advertise other company products with the whole browser saga (which sounds ridiculous in a capitalistic environment) because they thought that Microsoft was hindering the progress and the development of the internet browsers, and that the decision was in the best public interest.
If Blizzard wins and actually shuts down BW, that's a lifetime boycott on all their shit. Don't care how facts or rights or whatever play out, it would be an incredibly dick move.
Granted Blizzard probably wants BW to continue and just wants to start getting paid for not doing anything/likely try to manage some of it (lol if they tried to make some 'official Blizzard maps' for Proleague). BW likely won't die if Blizzard wins, though depending on how much money gets sucked from the scene (if they win, again), it's hard to say what impact it would have.
Kespa is like a necessary evil. It could use a bit of restructuring to have less asshattery happen, sure, but the organisational role that Kespa provides needs to be filled and they aren't doing -that- horrible of a job.
On one hand, I'd like Blizzard to lose. If they actually gave a shit they would've done something a long ass time ago, not get magically interested in IP rights a few months after SC2 comes out. On the other hand, it would be interesting to see a partial win in terms of precedent for the future. Blizzard (and thus potentially any future company) would get some small % royalty for their game being used in situations where money is involved/being made. A much larger portion would still be going to the players and people actually making the scene possible. Thus, in the future, if some small company makes an amazing esport game they could still receive revenue to continue supporting it.
Likely gonna just be both sides trying to fuck the other one over as much as possible. -.-
If Blizzard wants SC2 to overtake BW, then how about they make the game actually good enough to surpass it. Oh wait, that requires effort and skill and can't be done nearly as fast. Almost like it has to grow into a great game with a huge following/scene.
On October 26 2010 05:55 nimoraca wrote: How many of SCBW fans are going to the matches to watch the artwork of the game. All those 16x16 pixel units in 256 colors in a 640x480 resolution, with a poor quality sound are really visually appealing. Right?
This argument is laughable. Blizzard didn't just create the unit images, they determined how they fit in and how they function within a system, while players determine how they play ACCORDING TO that system.
If Blizzard wants SC2 to overtake BW, then how about they make the game actually good enough to surpass it. Oh wait, that requires effort and skill and can't be done nearly as fast. Almost like it has to grow into a great game with a huge following/scene.
Except that for a community of both players and fans that seemed to have been built up through a decade, half of them already switched to SC2 within less than half a year of the game coming out.
On October 26 2010 05:55 nimoraca wrote: How many of SCBW fans are going to the matches to watch the artwork of the game. All those 16x16 pixel units in 256 colors in a 640x480 resolution, with a poor quality sound are really visually appealing. Right?
This argument is laughable. Blizzard didn't just create the unit images, they determined how they fit in and how they function within a system, while players determine how they play ACCORDING TO that system.
I still love the look of Starcraft: Brood War anyway
If Blizzard wants SC2 to overtake BW, then how about they make the game actually good enough to surpass it. Oh wait, that requires effort and skill and can't be done nearly as fast. Almost like it has to grow into a great game with a huge following/scene.
Except that for a community of both players and fans that seemed to have been built up through a decade, half of them already switched to SC2 within less than half a year of the game coming out.
Gee, what a failure of a game.
Just about every major game release starts off with a large number of players. The test for Starcraft 2 is really gonig to come down to its longevity as an eSport. Over a decade after its release, Brood War continues to be played at a professional level and has an eSports infrastructure unlike any other in the world. If Starcraft 2 can match this legacy and continue to be successful after a decade, I'll honestly be impressed because only a small handful of games last anywhere near that long.
If Blizzard wants SC2 to overtake BW, then how about they make the game actually good enough to surpass it. Oh wait, that requires effort and skill and can't be done nearly as fast. Almost like it has to grow into a great game with a huge following/scene.
Except that for a community of both players and fans that seemed to have been built up through a decade, half of them already switched to SC2 within less than half a year of the game coming out.
Gee, what a failure of a game.
Just about every major game release starts off with a large number of players. The test for Starcraft 2 is really gonig to come down to its longevity as an eSport. Over a decade after its release, Brood War continues to be played at a professional level and has an eSports infrastructure unlike any other in the world. If Starcraft 2 can match this legacy and continue to be successful after a decade, I'll honestly be impressed because only a small handful of games last anywhere near that long.
If there's any tell tale sign that it will last it is that a lot of players, including myself have quit player other games to play sc2. I've been playing wow for 3 years, and now i stopped that to focus on sc2 instead.
If Blizzard wants SC2 to overtake BW, then how about they make the game actually good enough to surpass it. Oh wait, that requires effort and skill and can't be done nearly as fast. Almost like it has to grow into a great game with a huge following/scene.
Except that for a community of both players and fans that seemed to have been built up through a decade, half of them already switched to SC2 within less than half a year of the game coming out.
Gee, what a failure of a game.
Just about every major game release starts off with a large number of players. The test for Starcraft 2 is really gonig to come down to its longevity as an eSport. Over a decade after its release, Brood War continues to be played at a professional level and has an eSports infrastructure unlike any other in the world. If Starcraft 2 can match this legacy and continue to be successful after a decade, I'll honestly be impressed because only a small handful of games last anywhere near that long.
If there's any tell tale sign that it will last it is that a lot of players, including myself have quit player other games to play sc2. I've been playing wow for 3 years, and now i stopped that to focus on sc2 instead.
Considering the fact that the game hasn't even been out for half a year yet, I think it's really too early to tell anything. Warcraft 3 had a huge number of players too with plenty of them quitting previous games to play it, but it never developed into an eSport on par with Brood War just like CS:Source never really filled the shoes of its predecessor. It's a common story in the gaming world and it's really no surprise that a large release like Starcraft 2 has a huge number of players right now. Blizzard is a pretty popular company and Brood War was one of the best selling games of all time.
Right now, Blizzard seems to be timing their expansions with this game pretty slowly so I think we'll probably see the in-game population fluctuate quite a bit for at least a few years with each expansion. Ultimately, however, the novelty will wear off and the next game will come along to consume the time of the masses. In the case of Starcraft 2, I think a big hit to the in-game population will come when Diablo 3 is released. Even though it's not an RTS game, it's going to generate just as much hype and also sports a huge fanbase, many of which are the same Blizzard loyalists that are all playing Starcraft 2 right now.
But then again, given Blizzard's pace of doing things, D3 could very easily be delayed another 10 years... -_-
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
This is misleading though. The players are treated fine, in what other videogames do the players even have salaries? This is the nature of such a niche sport. If you get into any minor Olympic event for example like gymnasium it is HARD WORK. The conditions don't look poor to me from the shows and they eat very handsomely, and have maids even. Yes they play the game up to 12 hours a day, and 8 is a minimum.That is the competition. KeSPA doesn't force this. People who are determined will always do all they can, the teams simply don't want slackers on their teams. Show me a successful BW gamer who didn't practice almost constantly.
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing.
As for leagues starting, what else should they do? Sit on their teams doing nothing waiting for a potentially long lawsuit to progress? Until Blizzard can prove right away a law is being broken in broadcasting that would justify the immediate shut down of the leagues then of course they should carry on as normal. The validity of eSports depends on this lawsuit and god only hopes Blizzard and their ideas do not pan out.
If Blizzard wants SC2 to overtake BW, then how about they make the game actually good enough to surpass it. Oh wait, that requires effort and skill and can't be done nearly as fast. Almost like it has to grow into a great game with a huge following/scene.
Except that for a community of both players and fans that seemed to have been built up through a decade, half of them already switched to SC2 within less than half a year of the game coming out.
Gee, what a failure of a game.
Just about every major game release starts off with a large number of players. The test for Starcraft 2 is really gonig to come down to its longevity as an eSport. Over a decade after its release, Brood War continues to be played at a professional level and has an eSports infrastructure unlike any other in the world. If Starcraft 2 can match this legacy and continue to be successful after a decade, I'll honestly be impressed because only a small handful of games last anywhere near that long.
If there's any tell tale sign that it will last it is that a lot of players, including myself have quit player other games to play sc2. I've been playing wow for 3 years, and now i stopped that to focus on sc2 instead.
A tell-tale sign of SC2's long term viability is an anecdote that you switched to play the game? Ok then. Every new game has players. This is a Blizzard game it always will. But we in this topic care about a varied and interesting proscene.
I think if Blizzard really cared about their game they wouldn't have used maps like Neo Arkanoid in their Blizzcon events because you know maps like that weren't made with the StarEdit map maker.
On October 26 2010 10:39 ricerocket wrote: Funny how his anecdote isn't good enough for you when your reason for doubting SC2's validity is that you don't like the game.
I don't care for the game either way, but saying 'well me and a bunch of other people switched' is dumb reasoning. Remember WC3? I'm only doubting Blizzards ability to run an eSport or do anything like what KeSPA has done, stick to developing Starcraft 2 as i see pretty of complaints constantly from people already. They have lag at their own fucking LAN events for christ sake. The game itself is irrelevant in the discussion, i don't find it too fun but a lot do so thats fine. But this is eSports discusssion not 'Is Starcraft 2 good' discussion.
On October 26 2010 08:25 LegendaryZ wrote: Just about every major game release starts off with a large number of players. The test for Starcraft 2 is really gonig to come down to its longevity as an eSport. Over a decade after its release, Brood War continues to be played at a professional level and has an eSports infrastructure unlike any other in the world. If Starcraft 2 can match this legacy and continue to be successful after a decade, I'll honestly be impressed because only a small handful of games last anywhere near that long.
Honestly, I don't think Blizzard will be interested in contributing money for tournaments in 5-10 years time. As soon as the game sales stall, I think they'll stop supporting the SC2 esports scene, since they won't earn any extra money by then.
If Blizzard wants SC2 to overtake BW, then how about they make the game actually good enough to surpass it. Oh wait, that requires effort and skill and can't be done nearly as fast. Almost like it has to grow into a great game with a huge following/scene.
Except that for a community of both players and fans that seemed to have been built up through a decade, half of them already switched to SC2 within less than half a year of the game coming out.
Gee, what a failure of a game.
SC2 isn't a failure, though with the number of blind fanboy naysayers I can see how you could get the impression that I was implying that. It's a fairly good game that has a lot of potential. Due to planned expansions it also has several years to iron out all the kinks, since even if interest wanes an expansion will rekindle that interest for many people.
Currently, I don't believe (personal opinion) it is better than BW. Could it be in the future? Nobody knows for sure, but it has potential and time to grow, just like ZvZ is slowly becoming more than pure baneling/zergling wars.
SC2 should beat BW on its own merits. I'm certain that if SC2 gets to a point that it actually is more balanced, fun, and entertaining on a wide scale than BW a lot of people won't have a problem with that outcome. If it becomes a better game, it's simply a better game. Trying to win by backstabbing and putting down the competition (thus sayeth the wild speculation about the current situation) is what politicians do as evidenced but almost any campaign commercial ever.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
I think there is much room for improvement with KeSPA, but you can't just accuse them of being a simple monopoly.
ATP functions in some of the same ways in Tennis. There has been antitrust claims brought against them for controlling the schedule of players or downgrading tournaments, but they've always ruled in favor of ATP. There has even been multiple tours in the past in Tennis that bans players from participation in other tours. In the end the multiple organizations could not all survive and you ended up with one.
I think there has to be a more transparent method of how KeSPA approves events outside of PL/OSL/MSL, but the precedence exists where organizing bodies takes some freedom away in the interest of players and existing sponsors. I really wish KeSPA was better, but in the end you need an organization like them.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread:
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
A monopoly usually happens when you have a dominant scenario in your market that affects the final consumer, but not like you think, if a company has proven to be the best you cant claim that is a monopoly, you could call that in this case if Kespa in anyway restrict the entrance to the market to another similar organization ( I havent heard ever of any group of sponsors interested in competing vs Kespa) or if they force their consumers by any kind of commercial threat or trick, or if they go after any possible competition in order to absorb it and take it away from market and as a competition,etc, so no, Kespa is not a monopoly, it is just unique in its kind and it must be because the e-sports niche is not profitable enough for having more than one like Kespa organizations.
No one should make profits over e-sports, no matter if its Blizzard, Kespa or MBC. Having said that MBC, Ongamenet and even Kespa have profited from SC1, obviously Kespa by having broadcasting stations pay them and the broadcast stations by using the popularity of SC1 to play ADS on their program. When that is the case its normal of Blizzard to require a fee for using their game to profit.
On October 26 2010 05:51 Shockk wrote: To what extent Blizzard chooses to use their property rights is another topic, but that they have a RIGHT to do so seems clear (even without majoring in law).
Not clear at all for me. When someone is broadcasting music/movie the problem is clear - no need to people to go and buy album/film since they are already "using" them for free, so IP holders are losing money. But I've been watching SC2 streams since beta, and a copy of SC2 didn't magically appear on my PC. If I decide to play it, I still need to purchase the game, so Blizz as IP holder will get their deserved money. Its not clear if you can apply IP rights for games broadcasting the same way as audio/video products, where watching and/or listening is equal to using, but watching games and playing(using) them is not equal at all. On the other hand, if KESPA made some sort of BW clone with similar sound and graphics and starts to sell it, then its a IP rights problem, since people won't buy the original BW -> no money for Blizz. Just a common sense, perhaps I'm wrong...
On October 27 2010 06:24 thehitman wrote: No one should make profits over e-sports, no matter if its Blizzard, Kespa or MBC. Having said that MBC, Ongamenet and even Kespa have profited from SC1, obviously Kespa by having broadcasting stations pay them and the broadcast stations by using the popularity of SC1 to play ADS on their program. When that is the case its normal of Blizzard to require a fee for using their game to profit.
So you want that broadcasters dont make any kind of profit from e-sports???, seriously i cant understand your point?, are you serious?, and Blizzard has taken millions in profits from the good will of being the only Developer in having a RTS as an e-sport. Actually everybody should make profits from e-sports, that is the base of good business including this one.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
Did that help?
Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post.
Here's my view:
1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA.
On October 27 2010 04:15 AyJay wrote:KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
It's funny how you wrote literally two sentences, yet you're wrong on so many levels in your post.
First of all, KeSPA is not a monopoly. KeSPA does not restrict any organization(s) from creating their own teams and competing against one another in other leagues.
Second of all, your second statement is an outright lie. Most teams did not pull their players from GSL, and gretech did not support KeSPA. Only the teams the sponsors of which were in a direct conflict of interests did (eSTRO, OGN, MBC, later on SKT). That was until gretech decided to team up with blizzard.
There have been dozens of tournaments not associated with KeSPA or tournaments where non-KeSPA players played - blizzcon, WCG, e-Stars Seoul, several major events in China (like IeSF or IEF, etc.) to name a few. Not to mention the WC3 progamers (I mean those with KeSPA licenses) - they can compete in pretty much any event. Also there's Special Force ProLeague, where afaik two teams are not even part of KeSPA (archer and some other team).
Anyone else feel that the Joker (Batman) doing one of his manic laughs perfectly embodies the situation, crazy to the point it would be funny, if not for the seriousness of the situation?
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread:
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
Did that help?
Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post.
Here's my view:
1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA.
Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close.
Man screw Blizzard. BW would've eventually died on it's own with SC2 getting the expansions and such, it could've just done so peacfully and coexisting transition. But apprently BW is too dangerous to alow to live, it's like some bad spy novel where the father dictator wants his eldest son murdered for fearing his youngest won't be succesfull.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Having monopoly anywhere is bad.
This is a huge generalization and a lie. There are quite a few scenarios in micro-economics where monopolies can be better than other ways of organizing a market.
On October 26 2010 05:51 Shockk wrote: To what extent Blizzard chooses to use their property rights is another topic, but that they have a RIGHT to do so seems clear (even without majoring in law).
Not clear at all for me. When someone is broadcasting music/movie the problem is clear - no need to people to go and buy album/film since they are already "using" them for free, so IP holders are losing money. But I've been watching SC2 streams since beta, and a copy of SC2 didn't magically appear on my PC. If I decide to play it, I still need to purchase the game, so Blizz as IP holder will get their deserved money. Its not clear if you can apply IP rights for games broadcasting the same way as audio/video products, where watching and/or listening is equal to using, but watching games and playing(using) them is not equal at all. On the other hand, if KESPA made some sort of BW clone with similar sound and graphics and starts to sell it, then its a IP rights problem, since people won't buy the original BW -> no money for Blizz. Just a common sense, perhaps I'm wrong...
And exactly how much music/graphics/videos/sound effects (etc?) are you broadcasting when you broadcast a match of StarCraft? Legally this issue is not even about money. Blizzard could even forbid if you broadcast it for free. But they chose only to 'use' (or at least claim) their right when KeSPA went (kind of audaciously) one step too far and wanted to charge for the right to broadcast which only the IP holder should be able to do...
On this whole monopoly issue... I don't think you can apply this so easily on a non-profit organisation o.o although KeSPA seems to aggressively abuse that the SK BW scene is kind of dependant on them.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread:
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
Did that help?
Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post.
Here's my view:
1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA.
Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close.
You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard.
ATP has a monopoly on pro tennis worldwide, MLB has a monopoly on pro baseball in USA, MBA has monopoly on pro basketball in the USA, NHL has a monopoly on pro hockey in USA/Canada, NFL has a monopoly on football in the USA, FIFA has a monopoly on soccer worldwide. Do I need to continue?
Every sport needs its governing body. Also every succesfull sport has a government body. You dont want 2 competing organizations for a sport, as it raises question about which one is the most legitimate and prestigious, as one will always be favored, unless they work together.
Kespa rose up and built itself up to become the governing body of SC1 in Korea. They put in the work to make SC1 what it is in Korea today. No matter their behaviours in the past and the future that fact must be respected. Sure if there wasnt Kespa there is a possibility it could of been someone else, but nevertheless Kespa is there.
Does Blizzard have a right to their IP? Yes. But, how long has PL gone on unhindered by Blizz? Now things are blowing up. Sure Blizz reserves the rights to Starcraft. But Kespa reserves the right to PL, as PL is Kespas property.
Then again, are the copies of SC that Kespa uses legitimately purchased from blizzard? If so, Blizzard has been paid for their intelectual property, and Gretech has no right to enroach on PL.
I am a Starcraft 2 player, who would like to see the SC2 scene grow to the level SC1 is now. But the way things are going now, it is absurd. I dont really feel bad for either organization, who I feel bad for is the players. Even though I dont play BW, I watch proleague because I find it fun to root for the teams and players. They put in hard work to do what they do, and to provide people like me with entertainment.
I have not been following this closely, so correct me if I made wrong assumptions, but this is how I feel.
On October 27 2010 04:15 AyJay wrote:KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
It's funny how you wrote literally two sentences, yet you're wrong on so many levels in your post.
First of all, KeSPA is not a monopoly. KeSPA does not restrict any organization(s) from creating their own teams and competing against one another in other leagues.
Second of all, your second statement is an outright lie. Most teams did not pull their players from GSL, and gretech did not support KeSPA. Only the teams the sponsors of which were in a direct conflict of interests did (eSTRO, OGN, MBC, later on SKT). That was until gretech decided to team up with blizzard.
There have been dozens of tournaments not associated with KeSPA or tournaments where non-KeSPA players played - blizzcon, WCG, e-Stars Seoul, several major events in China (like IeSF or IEF, etc.) to name a few. Not to mention the WC3 progamers (I mean those with KeSPA licenses) - they can compete in pretty much any event. Also there's Special Force ProLeague, where afaik two teams are not even part of KeSPA (archer and some other team).
Your two-liner was a load of bull, tbh. ;;
In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos / μονος (alone or single) + polein / πωλειν (to sell)) exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.
KESPA is a monopoly, it has no competitors in the Starcraft market in Korea. Tell me which other company runs 2 channels of Starcraft.
KESPA has an extraordinarily large pull in terms of Starcraft viewership, especially since all three MAJOR tournaments are run by them.
To say that it's not a monopoly is simply bullshit.
On October 27 2010 07:13 Seide wrote: ATP has a monopoly on tennis worldwide, MLB has a monopoly on pro baseball in USA, MBA has monopoly on pro basketball in the USA, NHL has a monopoly on pro hockey in USA/Canada, NFL has a monopoly on football in the USA, FIFA has a monopoly on soccer worldwide.
Every sport needs its governing body. Also every succesfull sport has a government body. You dont want 2 competing organizations for a sport, as it raises question about which one is the most legitimate and prestigious, as one will always be favored, unless they work together.
This is true. For example, in MMA I only watch UFC. One governing body is not necessarily a bad thing like it is in economics. If you look at boxing and all it's organisations, it's almost a joke.
On October 27 2010 07:16 toadstool wrote: In economics, a monopoly (from Greek monos / μονος (alone or single) + polein / πωλειν (to sell)) exists when a specific individual or an enterprise has sufficient control over a particular product or service to determine significantly the terms on which other individuals shall have access to it.
OK, since we're getting really precise now, I'd like to point out that based on all the posts of blizzard supporters they accuse KeSPA of being a coercive monopoly:
"In economics and business ethics, a coercive monopoly is a business concern that prohibits competitors from entering the field, with the natural result being that the firm is able to make pricing and production decisions independent of competitive forces. A coercive monopoly is not merely a sole supplier of a particular kind of good or service (a monopoly), but it is a monopoly where there is no opportunity to compete through means such as price competition, technological or product innovation, or marketing; entry into the field is closed.As a coercive monopoly is securely shielded from possibility of competition, it is able to make pricing and production decisions with the assurance that no competition will arise. It is a case of a non-contestable market."
The bolded parts are what KeSPA is so often accused of in recent discussions. Those are certainly not true.
What KeSPA could be better described as is an efficiency monopoly:
"Contrastingly, for a non-coercive monopoly to be maintained, the monopolist must make pricing and production decisions knowing that if prices are too high or quality is too low competition may arise from another firm that can better serve the market. If it is successful, it is called an efficiency monopoly, because it has been able to keep production and supply costs lower than any other possible competitor so that it can charge a lower price than others and still be profitable. Since potential competitors are not able to be so efficient at producing, they are not able to charge a lower, or comparable, price and still be profitable. Hence, competing is possible but doing so is not profitable; whereas, for a coercive monopoly, competition is neither profitable nor possible."
In other words, survival of the fittest - KeSPA is the best esports organization on the (Korean) market. It's simply more beneficial for the aspiring investors to join them than to try to compete with them, but it's still possible.
KESPA is a monopoly, it has no competitors in the Starcraft market in Korea. Tell me which other company runs 2 channels of Starcraft.
Technically, that's true. But in reality, the reason why they're a "monopoly" is because they fully saturate the niche market that esports is and are better than any potential competition. They have become a "monopoly" through natural selection, so to speak.
I'd also question KeSPA's being a monopoly due to the fact that the two broadcasting channels are not owned by KeSPA as an organization, but rather by specific members of KeSPA. Those companies (OGN and MBCGame, or rather OnMedia and MBC the network, however they call themselves) compete with each other.
To sum up, just because KeSPA doesn't face any worthy competition does not make them evil or hinder the esports scene. KeSPA as a whole never tried to actually strengthen/defend their monopolistic position - only certain members within KeSPA did, and at that time (gomtv starleague before blizzard got involved) the BW esports market in Korea was actually an oligopoly (OGN, MBC and GomTV) (before that there used to be other broadcasters too, google GhemTV e.g.).
On October 27 2010 08:15 dazer wrote: Blizzard's the man WOO!!!!
Down with Kespa!
lol
i just want the starleagues to keep going...
remember when we thought they might shutdown the leagues toward the end of last year? remember when we thought these new leagues wouldn't start up? I hope this trend continues haha
Apparently some of us are more concerned about the future of BW in e-sports rather than satisfying our short term entertainment as fast as possible.
Sure our BW coverage is on its way but in the long run, it may be the end of it. I rather have to wait a little longer to confirm a BW scene for the future. The looks of it, its not going to happen when the IP lawsuit happens.
The foreign community could care less what happens between KeSPA or gretech, as long as they get their BW am I right? It doesn't matter if its illegal or legal sadly. I'm beginning to suspect this is the reason why Koreans and foreigners have different views on the situation.
On October 27 2010 07:13 Seide wrote: ATP has a monopoly on pro tennis worldwide, MLB has a monopoly on pro baseball in USA, MBA has monopoly on pro basketball in the USA, NHL has a monopoly on pro hockey in USA/Canada, NFL has a monopoly on football in the USA, FIFA has a monopoly on soccer worldwide. Do I need to continue?
Every sport needs its governing body. Also every succesfull sport has a government body. You dont want 2 competing organizations for a sport, as it raises question about which one is the most legitimate and prestigious, as one will always be favored, unless they work together.
Kespa rose up and built itself up to become the governing body of SC1 in Korea. They put in the work to make SC1 what it is in Korea today. No matter their behaviours in the past and the future that fact must be respected. Sure if there wasnt Kespa there is a possibility it could of been someone else, but nevertheless Kespa is there.
Like what Seide said. Every successful sport in NA has a governing body, it is needed or you get shit like WWE and TNA.
Complaining that Kespa doesn't care to expand outside Korea is like complaining how NBA doesn't host games in Korea for a few die hard fans. It's stupid.
You idiots just need to find anything about Kespa and complain about it, Kespa is the pro teams, they are the sponsors of the 10 teams in PL. They have run BW E-Sports well in Korea and that is their purpose, they don't need to let players play a shitty game with the same name because Kespa pays players to play BW not StarCrap 2.
Kespa's competence to run E-Sports? Check. Blizzard's competence to run E-Sports? HELL NO.
Like what Seide said. Every successful sport in NA has a governing body, it is needed or you get shit like WWE and TNA.
Complaining that Kespa doesn't care to expand outside Korea is like complaining how NBA doesn't host games in Korea for a few die hard fans. It's stupid.
You idiots just need to find anything about Kespa and complain about it, Kespa is the pro teams, they are the sponsors of the 10 teams in PL. They have run BW E-Sports well in Korea and that is their purpose, they don't need to let players play a shitty game with the same name because Kespa pays players to play BW not StarCrap 2.
Kespa's competence to run E-Sports? Check. Blizzard's competence to run E-Sports? HELL NO.
They will now argue this:
All the listed governing bodies are not made up of, nor led by, people from a big major chaebol-level corporations.
Like what Seide said. Every successful sport in NA has a governing body, it is needed or you get shit like WWE and TNA.
Complaining that Kespa doesn't care to expand outside Korea is like complaining how NBA doesn't host games in Korea for a few die hard fans. It's stupid.
You idiots just need to find anything about Kespa and complain about it, Kespa is the pro teams, they are the sponsors of the 10 teams in PL. They have run BW E-Sports well in Korea and that is their purpose, they don't need to let players play a shitty game with the same name because Kespa pays players to play BW not StarCrap 2.
Kespa's competence to run E-Sports? Check. Blizzard's competence to run E-Sports? HELL NO.
They will now argue this:
All the listed governing bodies are not made up of, nor led by, people from a big major chaebol-level corporations.
Other than the fact that every team in the NBA is owned by some absurdly rich person, or at least rich enough to buy their own team. I don't know about other sports in the US, since I don't follow them, but I'd imagine that they're all sponsored by some company or another and definitely not a non-profit organization.
Edit: NBA is not a non-profit organization either after some research. It is an association made up of the aforementioned teams, which means the owners of the teams can band together and basically dictate what the NBA does.
Apparently some of us are more concerned about the future of BW in e-sports rather than satisfying our short term entertainment as fast as possible.
Sure our BW coverage is on its way but in the long run, it may be the end of it. I rather have to wait a little longer to confirm a BW scene for the future. The looks of it, its not going to happen when the IP lawsuit happens.
The foreign community could care less what happens between KeSPA or gretech, as long as they get their BW am I right? It doesn't matter if its illegal or legal sadly. I'm beginning to suspect this is the reason why Koreans and foreigners have different views on the situation.
Wait ..
I don't know where that come from, but are you implying to say that KeSPA is illegally broadcasting SC?
From what I've read they do have the broadcasting right, at least up to the last proleague before the current one. The issue however is IP which is still pretty much in black and white area. To some extent, I do agree that Blizzard need to be paid for some kind of royalty or fee, which from what I've read KeSPA also agreed to pay. The big concern for me is, this Gretech/Blizzard is trying to get a hold of the esports scene, by demanding further authority and huge sum of money (like 50% from sponsorships), that IMHO is ridiculous.
And for me it's not only about BW, but e-sports in general. What I'm afraid is, if Blizzard won the lawsuit, then it will be a bad precedence in the future for any e-sport bodies. In my point of view, it will be much less appealing to try to run e-sports scene if they virtually have no control and much less profit over it (50% to developer?), that is to say the least.
It should be legal I agree, but in what definition?
I do care about KesPA however, since virtually every player, coach and other staff in the scene is pretty much depend on KeSPA for their life. KeSPA like other governing body is not perfect, who said that FIFA, EFA, NFL etc is a perfect bodies? But it's needed, period.
The best solution I think is for the developer to release the business version of the games, like MS Office Enterprise or something like that. The price could be higher, or lower (for promotion purpose), with extra features. It could be also have an annual subscription fee or something like that. Any pro-scene, and anybody who's making a profit from the game, they must get this business version and not the personal one. Starcraft II Professional Edition with LAN features and built in tournament/league features sounds great :D
I hope that for the future of all eSports, not just Brood War, that Blizzard loses this case. Seriously, I don't want future games that may have promising eSports scenes to totally fail just because their developer doesn't want the scene to exist or wants to get rid of the scene when they make a sequel.
Furthermore, does anyone else think that Blizzard is fucking stupid to suit a South Korean company in South Korean courts?
TBH I'd love to see the reaction from this forum if Blizzard wins, and simply imposes a fee, logo and requirement to run things by them first, allowing the continuation of the Proleague, MSL and OSL freely after that.
Not sayin this will happen, it very well could but I'm no fortune teller. I'd absolutely get a kick out of reading the responses to that situation though.
On October 27 2010 12:32 xBillehx wrote: TBH I'd love to see the reaction from this forum if Blizzard wins, and simply imposes a fee, logo and requirement to run things by them first, allowing the continuation of the Proleague, MSL and OSL freely after that.
Not sayin this will happen, it very well could but I'm no fortune teller. I'd absolutely get a kick out of reading the responses to that situation though.
I wish that was the case, but if they really only wanted those things then they wouldn't come up with ridiculous demands in the first place.
On October 26 2010 09:56 infinity2k9 wrote: [quote]
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread:
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
Did that help?
Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post.
Here's my view:
1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA.
Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close.
You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard.
Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard.
On October 26 2010 22:07 Chriamon wrote: [quote] You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread:
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
Did that help?
Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post.
Here's my view:
1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA.
Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close.
You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard.
Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard.
Blizzard has never said that they want to control or run the BW scene in Korea or that they want to dismantle KeSPA. All that has been demanded is acknowledgment of Blizzard's IP rights. I would suspect, although I know as much as everyone else about the true situation (jack shit), that Blizzard would impose a nominal fee, permission requirements, and advertising for new Blizzard games, all while allowing BW to continue being broadcast.
True, this season's PL/MSL will likely be stopped short, but I suspect that broadcasting rights will be reinstated once KeSPA/MBC/OGN have actual motivation to finish negotiations.
On October 27 2010 04:12 maybenexttime wrote: [quote]
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread:
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
Did that help?
Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post.
Here's my view:
1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA.
Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close.
You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard.
Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard.
Blizzard has never said that they want to control or run the BW scene in Korea or that they want to dismantle KeSPA. All that has been demanded is acknowledgment of Blizzard's IP rights. I would suspect, although I know as much as everyone else about the true situation (jack shit), that Blizzard would impose a nominal fee, permission requirements, and advertising for new Blizzard games, all while allowing BW to continue being broadcast.
True, this season's PL/MSL will likely be stopped short, but I suspect that broadcasting rights will be reinstated once KeSPA/MBC/OGN have actual motivation to finish negotiations.
Blizzard only concern here is to have control of the e-sports scene, and install SC2 as the prime game, they dont need to do anything about SC2 because they have total control over there, but they want to erode the BW scene so they got faster what they want, all Blizzard actions are looking this target, even when broadcasters agreed in paying a fee, Gretech asked for TV prime slots for GSL instead of PL, if that is not a rush attempt for a change in the e-sports scene then I dont know what it is, like I said before I dont blame Blizzard, I would do the same, they dont need even to control BW scene, they just need that SC2 replace BW as the top e-sport game and they are pushing hard in that direction, if as a result of this the BW scene die faster, well that is only collateral damage, that can be solved with some shitty words like the ones which Paul Sams said.
On October 27 2010 12:32 xBillehx wrote: TBH I'd love to see the reaction from this forum if Blizzard wins, and simply imposes a fee, logo and requirement to run things by them first, allowing the continuation of the Proleague, MSL and OSL freely after that.
Not sayin this will happen, it very well could but I'm no fortune teller. I'd absolutely get a kick out of reading the responses to that situation though.
Not only will that not happen but it's completely mind boggling to me to see that anyone who has been following this could ever even consider that much less put it on a forum. You're not the only one who feels this way about Blizzard, or who thinks that this is a possibility. If that's all they wanted to do then we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place.
Please remember, this is the same Blizzard that as part of their crusade that is only for "IP rights" wanted to audit KeSPA and have control over MBCGame and OGN. This is the same Blizzard that in the name of "IP rights" decided that in 2007 they wanted to pursuit this path of having KeSPA renew their right to broadcast every year only after StarCraft 2 was announced. This is the same Blizzard that in the name of "IP rights" decided that if KeSPA, MBCGame, and OnGameNet were going to continue to air StarCraft Brood War they would simply suit them in an attempt to shut them down (unless you really believe they just want to have KeSPA pay money and slap a logo on their broadcasts).
KeSPA already said that if Blizzard simply wanted them to pay a fee, even yearly, they'd do that. KeSPA even offered to pay Gretech 3 million won per year. Gretech and Blizzard aren't after the small time money of KeSPA, they want the big time money of SC2 taking off in South Korea so that it'll sell well along with it's two expansions and possible endorsements in the future. Blizzard knows that if they can get SC2 to where Brood War was they'll have a cash cow that can last them over a decade, but first they need to shut down the Brood War scene.
Anyone who thinks this isn't about destroying the Brood War scene so that Blizzard can cash in on SC2 is either delusional or ignorant.
edit: Oh and by the way, just prepare for the day that Blizzard starts charging for the "pro maps" that eventually get made and played in things like the GSL.
On October 27 2010 04:12 maybenexttime wrote: [quote]
Seriously, what the heck are you talking about? There's a new draft every couple months or so. Nothing stops other companies from recruiting them or even bringing some of the best Chinese players or something.
Theoretically, some other sponsors could create their own teams and new broadcaster a new league. It's just that it's more beneficial for new investors to join KeSPA instead of creating the whole new infrastructure from ground up.
KeSPA is not a monopoly. They're just good competition because they have the know-how and they have an established infrastructure.
KeSPA is monopoly. They will pull their players out of the tournament if that tournament doesn't support KeSPA or has players who aren't KeSPA players hence there are no competitions with this company.
Which is why E-Sports has survived in Korea and nowhere else in the world. Governing body = live E-Sports No governing body = dead E-Sports
Got it? Now STFU.
Please elaborate why you think so. Having monopoly anywhere is bad. E-sports didn't survived in Korea because of KeSPA, so I don't quite understand you.
Quoting gillyruless from a similar thread:
FIFA might not tell every football club what they have to do but all football leagues have governing bodies like KESPA. You are from Germany so I assume you have heard of DFL's Der Vorstand des Ligaverbandes and Der Aufsichtsrat der DFL. What do you think that they do? All of Bundesliga teams and players are bound by the rules set by the DFL. They cannot go and play any team they want to play whenever they feel like it. If you know differently, tell me how that's different from what KESPA has been doing.
KESPA (and in turn the teams that make up KESPA) and the players have entered into a contract that requires a certain degree of financial consideration and required pefformances. Any player who wish not to be goverened by the requirements in the contract is free to not enter into it just like NAda and Boxer have done. They just won't get paid a regular salary any more. If anyone feel this is not fair, I have to ask whether they evr had a regular job. When you are paid to work for someone else, you are always required to follow the directions of the entity that pays you within, of course, the bouds of the labor laws. I personally do not see anything sinister or irregular about what KESPA has done. Do you think if somebody sets up a new football league in Germany in direct competition of Bundesliga, Bundesliga will allow the teams and the players to play in the new league while they are getting paid by the teams that belong to Bundesliga?
Did that help?
Yeah it did and it would had helped if you would have posted it on your previous post.
Here's my view:
1) I don't see any problems with KeSPA as an organization 2) I DO NOT like what some actions KeSPA had been doing (trying to control e-sports, establish monopoly, questionable rules for players, whole broadcasting rights issue and so on). 3) Salaries for players are paid by sponsors so organizations EG, teamliquid, oGs, TSL can pay their players therefore there is no need for organization like KeSPA for them. 4) BW didn't caught on outside of Korea for different reasons than in Korea. Also remember the guy who helped BW get big - Boxer, not KeSPA.
Your third point just stated that salaries are paid by sponsors and in BW, Sponsors+ another infrastructure =Kespa so how come you dont need Kespa?, what is the logic of that statement?, and if I am paying a guy US200k a year and giving him a house to live, food and other commodities for me it is a MUST BE that this guy has a contract and follows it. Btw are you comparing EG,TL, oGs to the pro teams in BW??? they are not even close.
You're assuming that the sponsors don't exist outside of KeSPA, but they do. The sponors have a little group they get together for mutual things called KeSPA, yes, but the players salaries come from the sponsors, not the KeSPA organization itself. They aren't a single entity so theoretically, sponsor's like MBC, CJ, Hwaseung, SK Telecom, etc etc.... can still sponsor teams without the entity currently known as KeSPA. They'd get the same recognition, just no control over the leagues outside their own team and that's sorta the entire reason KeSPA is anti-Blizzard.
Of course they want control and that is why Kespa exists (Blizzard is fighting to get that control so they can replace the RTS e-sports game whenever they want which means outstanding sellings), you are telling me that a group of big sponsors that invest millions of dollars in a niche market should have not control over what they invest, get real, if you put the money you want to have control, business dont go in other way at least not in earth. I dont blame Blizzard for trying to control the scene, at the end it is just a company which wants maximize profits for its shareholders, but I dont have any stock in Blizzard, I am a fan of BW pro scene and that is being succesfully running by Kespa, you cant say the same from Blizzard.
Blizzard has never said that they want to control or run the BW scene in Korea or that they want to dismantle KeSPA. All that has been demanded is acknowledgment of Blizzard's IP rights. I would suspect, although I know as much as everyone else about the true situation (jack shit), that Blizzard would impose a nominal fee, permission requirements, and advertising for new Blizzard games, all while allowing BW to continue being broadcast.
True, this season's PL/MSL will likely be stopped short, but I suspect that broadcasting rights will be reinstated once KeSPA/MBC/OGN have actual motivation to finish negotiations.
Were you living under a rock past the last three years?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA 6. Additional contracts between blizzard and KeSPA progamers that override the contracts between the latter and KeSPA teams"
Those were blizzard's demands... If that is not demanding total control, then I don't know what is. T______T
And, of course, blizzard never said they want to run the BW scene, as in host the tournaments, etc. They simply want to profit from something others invest hundreds of millions of dollars without investing any money whatsoever themselves, and be able to do whatever they want (like deliberately damage BW to support their other product - sc2, which is what gretech attempted).
Were you living under a rock past the last three years?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA 6. Additional contracts between blizzard and KeSPA progamers that override the contracts between the latter and KeSPA teams"
Those were blizzard's demands... If that is not demanding total control, then I don't know what is. T______T
And, of course, blizzard never said they want to run the BW scene, as in host the tournaments, etc. They simply want to profit from something others invest hundreds of millions of dollars without investing any money whatsoever themselves, and be able to do whatever they want (like deliberately damage BW to support their other product - sc2, which is what gretech attempted).
I kind of have to respond to this, mainly because the way these demands are being interpreted seems grossly misplaced. In order:
1) I honestly do not see how 1 year is unreasonable. Blizzard and KeSPA are two very different entities, and Blizzard would simply be unsure as to KeSPA operations and how KeSPA has been utilizing the Starcraft IP (the 'platform,' if you will). Transparency as to how KeSPA selects sponsors, how KeSPA attains funding for its activities, and how KeSPA as a whole operates is very limited, particularly because Blizzard is not a native Korean firm and has a limited grasp on the business culture and environment. Add to this the fact that the main short-term impetus for negotiations beginning in 2007 was the KeSPA broadcasting rights event. How is 1 year unreasonable from Blizzard's point of view?
I can see how it's unreasonable to KeSPA (hell, we've been doing this solely ourselves FOR YEARS), but overall, I don't see how it is unreasonable at all. Blizzard doesn't know KeSPA. Blizzard has some valuable IP (Starcraft franchise and the game itself) which is being used in a way it probably has neither predicted nor really fully understands. However, Blizzard recognizes that some sort of licensing time frame is appropriate. From my standpoint, a year (maybe 2) is perfectly legitimate going from the position that I simply do not know how they are operating.
Before I get jumped on for this, not even KeSPA supporters on this forum really know how KeSPA operates. We don't know their decision making process. We don't know how sponsors are decided. We don't even know why they decided to pull players out of GomTV a while back. We can make posits on motives, but fundamentally, the majority of both SC2 supports and Brood War diehards simply do not know how the company operates. Neither does Blizzard. From this standpoint, a year seems very legitimate to me; it'll give Blizzard time to really understand what and how KeSPA does with the Starcraft IP. It's short enough to be flexible, in case there is some sort of abuse or some sort of bad development, etc, but long enough to keep the BW tournament structure (one full year) stable without breaking it up.
Moving on.
2) This is a little extreme, but again, we are dealing with a 'non-profit' foreign company. For the sake of transparency, I'd say this 'demand' is not a demand, but a simple request. Sure, it is worded to set a precedent that Blizzard ultimately has the ability to decide what people do with its game (which, though debatable, seems to have reached a grudging consensus) but the spirit of the 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is for transparency.
Let's approach this from another angle. What CAN Blizzard REALLY DO with this 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) in place, if the deal goes through? Is Blizzard going to veto a sponsor for pumping in tons of money? Are they going to say 'hey, we don't want to pay players anymore; too expensive?' Are they going to say 'we're closing the leagues, omg?' As far as I can tell, this 'control' issue just boils down to a mistrust that Blizzard wants to actively shut down the BW progaming scene. If we take it from the assumption that Blizzard doesn't wish to shut down BW, I don't see how this 'demand' (sarcastic quotation marks) will really change the status quo at all.
Of course, we can't really 'know' whether Blizzard wants to or does not want to shut down the BW scene. However, that being said, this 'demand' is 50/50 in regards to BW's longevity. Qualitatively, there is no reason to transmit bias and somehow warp it into 'womg Blizz wants to control IT ALL.' That is simply under the assumption that Blizzard would want to exercise the power to make a drastic change to the BW scene, and thus, demonstrates an emotional response from many forumers rather than rational thinking.
3). So Blizz wants a licensing fee. Wow. That's so out there, and such an outrageous demand. I can't imagine this occurring ANYWHERE else; it's not like companies ever have to buy licenses for the use of specific products. Oh wait ...
Pointedly, without hard numbers, there is no way to judge. Additionally, eSports despite sharing commonalities with existing industries, is a new industry. There are no precendents set for this sort of thing. To an objective observer, a licensing fee is neither outrageous nor a 'demand;' even with seemingly 'outrageous' figures, there are no proceeding comparative situations. Who's to say?
My point is that 'demand' 3 is not supportive of 'Blizzard womg kill BW now cry.'
4) Don't see what's so wrong with this either. 100% ownership is a little meh, but even WoW players don't own any percentage of their character (It's in the EULA). I'm almost certain that this could have been negotiated somehow, or dealt with in a more constructive manner. Yes, it is a bit extreme, but it in no way shape or form somehow details a 'power hungry corporate entity.'
Take for example, a remix of the original song that is released to make a profit. Does the remixer have to obtain a license from the original artist? Most likely, yes. Even if we treat KeSPA's broadcasted games as derivative works, it's much the same situation. KeSPA and KeSPA supporters might disagree, but this sort of 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is in no way out of line or even unreasonable. Heavy handed? Sure. Unreasonable? Not really.
(In my opinion, KeSPA really messed this point up. They should have agreed to 100% ownership of all material and consolidated IP (I dunno, file patents, whatever) on the actual infrastructure and technology involved in that infrastructure to broadcast the games. That would allow them to maintain essentially 'buyer power' over Blizzard, as well as expand potentially in the future. Big wasted opportunity, but I'm not surprised either. )
5) Right to audit is justified by seeking transparency. I do not see how this is unreasonable. It happens in M&As all the time, and also for licensing deals for R&D involving milestone payments. It probably occurs a lot more than just in those situations too.
6) This is really the only claim that seems a bit iffy; however, the intent doesn't seem to be very insidious. I don't have much to say on it, only that it would allow Blizzard to direct the actions of BW pros (such as play in this, go here, etc), but without really understanding what sort of contracts Blizzard would be offering the players, I can't comment further. On the surface, this does seem a bit suspect; however, given how deeply in depends on the nature of a Blizzard-progamer contract (which I bet no one really knows anything about), it is definitely short-sighted to just claim this as a power grab.
I think BW supporters are simply acting irrational over this entire issue. Granted, it is understandable; however, when logic comes into play, irrationality needs to go away. A lot of quibbles from both sides (the whole 'BW will detract from SC2' thing makes NO sense to me whatsoever; what indication can you have that BW will detract from sales? I bet you can't even find a solid quantitative comparable example in D2 vs Diablo!) display more emotional responses than actual rational logic.
I had to respond to this point because, as far as 'demands' go, these seemed fairly reasonable just by inspection, given Blizzard's severe lack of knowledge as to KeSPA's activities. It is only insidious if you read these terms with a preconceived ideal that Blizzard seeks to take over; otherwise, it doesn't seem like a real, sustainable power grab (haha, sure, cause Blizz will develop KeSPA capabilities and forward integrate IN ONE YEAR, ok). This suggests that emotional bias runs rampant, and it creates an uncomfortable environment for everyone.
As for me, I think KeSPA was a bit short sighted, and Blizzard is playing hard ball a bit too much. However, I do not think Blizzard's actions are unreasonable. KeSPA, on the other hand, had a great opportunity during negotiations to really assure Blizzard of their intentions and blew it because of their ego. Now, we have a big mess on our hands. I can't venture to guess the outcome, but looking back, I see no indication of Blizzard's behavior being representative of a take over of the industry at all.
What seems "a bit hard ball" for you in the world of business means high degree of risk for potential sponsors and pro team owners, decreasing the utility they perceive in taking part of the e-sports scene. The precondition of economic activity is established property rights, and blizzard wants to at least remove those to a high degree, if not completely.
s3raph obviously don't know what hes talking about.
i've done translations on sub licensing agreements and i have to say blizzard's demand is too much.
personally i no longer support SC2 because i despise the direction that blizz is taking. the game isnt fun anymore. its too much about greed with too little creativity.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Sorry this has already been gone over and over in the last few pages but some people dont even understand the real world at all apparently and how things work. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. KeSPA has the players because they had a draft, chose the players and gave them contracts. Many many players never even make it. There's no shortage of willing gamers out there. But you can't expect to take other teams contracted players to come and play for you can you?
Run your OWN draft, make your own teams, get your own sponsors. The reason there is no other KeSPA is because its a niche market already and there really is zero need for it in the first place. If i went to Korea, started my own Super Starcraft Power League, drafted gamers got teams and did everything needed to run eSports then KeSPA could not stop me. There might be disagreements about broadcasting because the main 2 channels are OGN and MBC but that is how business works, its competitive. If i gave the broadcasters a great offer i could get my SSPL on TV and be the main BW league. Of course none of this will happen because its completely financially not viable. But don't call it a monopoly as if KeSPA is somehow forcing this imaginary competition out of the business.
Btw i'm not some blind supporter in this argument, KeSPA and in particular sometimes its rule decisions and player drafting is harsh on the players. But that's how things are, no organization is perfect. It's like FIFA refusing goal-line technology even though we clearly need it. But when it comes to the business side of things and how they have created such a sustainable and well run scene, there's no way anyone should want to disrupt that. The only reason Blizzard do is for control/profit, simple as that.
Were you living under a rock past the last three years?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA 6. Additional contracts between blizzard and KeSPA progamers that override the contracts between the latter and KeSPA teams"
Those were blizzard's demands... If that is not demanding total control, then I don't know what is. T______T
And, of course, blizzard never said they want to run the BW scene, as in host the tournaments, etc. They simply want to profit from something others invest hundreds of millions of dollars without investing any money whatsoever themselves, and be able to do whatever they want (like deliberately damage BW to support their other product - sc2, which is what gretech attempted).
I kind of have to respond to this, mainly because the way these demands are being interpreted seems grossly misplaced. In order:
1) I honestly do not see how 1 year is unreasonable. Blizzard and KeSPA are two very different entities, and Blizzard would simply be unsure as to KeSPA operations and how KeSPA has been utilizing the Starcraft IP (the 'platform,' if you will). Transparency as to how KeSPA selects sponsors, how KeSPA attains funding for its activities, and how KeSPA as a whole operates is very limited, particularly because Blizzard is not a native Korean firm and has a limited grasp on the business culture and environment. Add to this the fact that the main short-term impetus for negotiations beginning in 2007 was the KeSPA broadcasting rights event. How is 1 year unreasonable from Blizzard's point of view?
I can see how it's unreasonable to KeSPA (hell, we've been doing this solely ourselves FOR YEARS), but overall, I don't see how it is unreasonable at all. Blizzard doesn't know KeSPA. Blizzard has some valuable IP (Starcraft franchise and the game itself) which is being used in a way it probably has neither predicted nor really fully understands. However, Blizzard recognizes that some sort of licensing time frame is appropriate. From my standpoint, a year (maybe 2) is perfectly legitimate going from the position that I simply do not know how they are operating.
Before I get jumped on for this, not even KeSPA supporters on this forum really know how KeSPA operates. We don't know their decision making process. We don't know how sponsors are decided. We don't even know why they decided to pull players out of GomTV a while back. We can make posits on motives, but fundamentally, the majority of both SC2 supports and Brood War diehards simply do not know how the company operates. Neither does Blizzard. From this standpoint, a year seems very legitimate to me; it'll give Blizzard time to really understand what and how KeSPA does with the Starcraft IP. It's short enough to be flexible, in case there is some sort of abuse or some sort of bad development, etc, but long enough to keep the BW tournament structure (one full year) stable without breaking it up.
Moving on.
2) This is a little extreme, but again, we are dealing with a 'non-profit' foreign company. For the sake of transparency, I'd say this 'demand' is not a demand, but a simple request. Sure, it is worded to set a precedent that Blizzard ultimately has the ability to decide what people do with its game (which, though debatable, seems to have reached a grudging consensus) but the spirit of the 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is for transparency.
Let's approach this from another angle. What CAN Blizzard REALLY DO with this 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) in place, if the deal goes through? Is Blizzard going to veto a sponsor for pumping in tons of money? Are they going to say 'hey, we don't want to pay players anymore; too expensive?' Are they going to say 'we're closing the leagues, omg?' As far as I can tell, this 'control' issue just boils down to a mistrust that Blizzard wants to actively shut down the BW progaming scene. If we take it from the assumption that Blizzard doesn't wish to shut down BW, I don't see how this 'demand' (sarcastic quotation marks) will really change the status quo at all.
Of course, we can't really 'know' whether Blizzard wants to or does not want to shut down the BW scene. However, that being said, this 'demand' is 50/50 in regards to BW's longevity. Qualitatively, there is no reason to transmit bias and somehow warp it into 'womg Blizz wants to control IT ALL.' That is simply under the assumption that Blizzard would want to exercise the power to make a drastic change to the BW scene, and thus, demonstrates an emotional response from many forumers rather than rational thinking.
3). So Blizz wants a licensing fee. Wow. That's so out there, and such an outrageous demand. I can't imagine this occurring ANYWHERE else; it's not like companies ever have to buy licenses for the use of specific products. Oh wait ...
Pointedly, without hard numbers, there is no way to judge. Additionally, eSports despite sharing commonalities with existing industries, is a new industry. There are no precendents set for this sort of thing. To an objective observer, a licensing fee is neither outrageous nor a 'demand;' even with seemingly 'outrageous' figures, there are no proceeding comparative situations. Who's to say?
My point is that 'demand' 3 is not supportive of 'Blizzard womg kill BW now cry.'
4) Don't see what's so wrong with this either. 100% ownership is a little meh, but even WoW players don't own any percentage of their character (It's in the EULA). I'm almost certain that this could have been negotiated somehow, or dealt with in a more constructive manner. Yes, it is a bit extreme, but it in no way shape or form somehow details a 'power hungry corporate entity.'
Take for example, a remix of the original song that is released to make a profit. Does the remixer have to obtain a license from the original artist? Most likely, yes. Even if we treat KeSPA's broadcasted games as derivative works, it's much the same situation. KeSPA and KeSPA supporters might disagree, but this sort of 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is in no way out of line or even unreasonable. Heavy handed? Sure. Unreasonable? Not really.
(In my opinion, KeSPA really messed this point up. They should have agreed to 100% ownership of all material and consolidated IP (I dunno, file patents, whatever) on the actual infrastructure and technology involved in that infrastructure to broadcast the games. That would allow them to maintain essentially 'buyer power' over Blizzard, as well as expand potentially in the future. Big wasted opportunity, but I'm not surprised either. )
5) Right to audit is justified by seeking transparency. I do not see how this is unreasonable. It happens in M&As all the time, and also for licensing deals for R&D involving milestone payments. It probably occurs a lot more than just in those situations too.
6) This is really the only claim that seems a bit iffy; however, the intent doesn't seem to be very insidious. I don't have much to say on it, only that it would allow Blizzard to direct the actions of BW pros (such as play in this, go here, etc), but without really understanding what sort of contracts Blizzard would be offering the players, I can't comment further. On the surface, this does seem a bit suspect; however, given how deeply in depends on the nature of a Blizzard-progamer contract (which I bet no one really knows anything about), it is definitely short-sighted to just claim this as a power grab.
I think BW supporters are simply acting irrational over this entire issue. Granted, it is understandable; however, when logic comes into play, irrationality needs to go away. A lot of quibbles from both sides (the whole 'BW will detract from SC2' thing makes NO sense to me whatsoever; what indication can you have that BW will detract from sales? I bet you can't even find a solid quantitative comparable example in D2 vs Diablo!) display more emotional responses than actual rational logic.
I had to respond to this point because, as far as 'demands' go, these seemed fairly reasonable just by inspection, given Blizzard's severe lack of knowledge as to KeSPA's activities. It is only insidious if you read these terms with a preconceived ideal that Blizzard seeks to take over; otherwise, it doesn't seem like a real, sustainable power grab (haha, sure, cause Blizz will develop KeSPA capabilities and forward integrate IN ONE YEAR, ok). This suggests that emotional bias runs rampant, and it creates an uncomfortable environment for everyone.
As for me, I think KeSPA was a bit short sighted, and Blizzard is playing hard ball a bit too much. However, I do not think Blizzard's actions are unreasonable. KeSPA, on the other hand, had a great opportunity during negotiations to really assure Blizzard of their intentions and blew it because of their ego. Now, we have a big mess on our hands. I can't venture to guess the outcome, but looking back, I see no indication of Blizzard's behavior being representative of a take over of the industry at all.
Wow, very long post. Too bad it's based on errors. Is that what you're building your statement upon?
Were you living under a rock past the last three years?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA 6. Additional contracts between blizzard and KeSPA progamers that override the contracts between the latter and KeSPA teams"
Those were blizzard's demands... If that is not demanding total control, then I don't know what is. T______T
And, of course, blizzard never said they want to run the BW scene, as in host the tournaments, etc. They simply want to profit from something others invest hundreds of millions of dollars without investing any money whatsoever themselves, and be able to do whatever they want (like deliberately damage BW to support their other product - sc2, which is what gretech attempted).
I kind of have to respond to this, mainly because the way these demands are being interpreted seems grossly misplaced. In order:
1) I honestly do not see how 1 year is unreasonable. Blizzard and KeSPA are two very different entities, and Blizzard would simply be unsure as to KeSPA operations and how KeSPA has been utilizing the Starcraft IP (the 'platform,' if you will). Transparency as to how KeSPA selects sponsors, how KeSPA attains funding for its activities, and how KeSPA as a whole operates is very limited, particularly because Blizzard is not a native Korean firm and has a limited grasp on the business culture and environment. Add to this the fact that the main short-term impetus for negotiations beginning in 2007 was the KeSPA broadcasting rights event. How is 1 year unreasonable from Blizzard's point of view?
I can see how it's unreasonable to KeSPA (hell, we've been doing this solely ourselves FOR YEARS), but overall, I don't see how it is unreasonable at all. Blizzard doesn't know KeSPA. Blizzard has some valuable IP (Starcraft franchise and the game itself) which is being used in a way it probably has neither predicted nor really fully understands. However, Blizzard recognizes that some sort of licensing time frame is appropriate. From my standpoint, a year (maybe 2) is perfectly legitimate going from the position that I simply do not know how they are operating.
Before I get jumped on for this, not even KeSPA supporters on this forum really know how KeSPA operates. We don't know their decision making process. We don't know how sponsors are decided. We don't even know why they decided to pull players out of GomTV a while back. We can make posits on motives, but fundamentally, the majority of both SC2 supports and Brood War diehards simply do not know how the company operates. Neither does Blizzard. From this standpoint, a year seems very legitimate to me; it'll give Blizzard time to really understand what and how KeSPA does with the Starcraft IP. It's short enough to be flexible, in case there is some sort of abuse or some sort of bad development, etc, but long enough to keep the BW tournament structure (one full year) stable without breaking it up.
Moving on.
2) This is a little extreme, but again, we are dealing with a 'non-profit' foreign company. For the sake of transparency, I'd say this 'demand' is not a demand, but a simple request. Sure, it is worded to set a precedent that Blizzard ultimately has the ability to decide what people do with its game (which, though debatable, seems to have reached a grudging consensus) but the spirit of the 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is for transparency.
Let's approach this from another angle. What CAN Blizzard REALLY DO with this 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) in place, if the deal goes through? Is Blizzard going to veto a sponsor for pumping in tons of money? Are they going to say 'hey, we don't want to pay players anymore; too expensive?' Are they going to say 'we're closing the leagues, omg?' As far as I can tell, this 'control' issue just boils down to a mistrust that Blizzard wants to actively shut down the BW progaming scene. If we take it from the assumption that Blizzard doesn't wish to shut down BW, I don't see how this 'demand' (sarcastic quotation marks) will really change the status quo at all.
Of course, we can't really 'know' whether Blizzard wants to or does not want to shut down the BW scene. However, that being said, this 'demand' is 50/50 in regards to BW's longevity. Qualitatively, there is no reason to transmit bias and somehow warp it into 'womg Blizz wants to control IT ALL.' That is simply under the assumption that Blizzard would want to exercise the power to make a drastic change to the BW scene, and thus, demonstrates an emotional response from many forumers rather than rational thinking.
3). So Blizz wants a licensing fee. Wow. That's so out there, and such an outrageous demand. I can't imagine this occurring ANYWHERE else; it's not like companies ever have to buy licenses for the use of specific products. Oh wait ...
Pointedly, without hard numbers, there is no way to judge. Additionally, eSports despite sharing commonalities with existing industries, is a new industry. There are no precendents set for this sort of thing. To an objective observer, a licensing fee is neither outrageous nor a 'demand;' even with seemingly 'outrageous' figures, there are no proceeding comparative situations. Who's to say?
My point is that 'demand' 3 is not supportive of 'Blizzard womg kill BW now cry.'
4) Don't see what's so wrong with this either. 100% ownership is a little meh, but even WoW players don't own any percentage of their character (It's in the EULA). I'm almost certain that this could have been negotiated somehow, or dealt with in a more constructive manner. Yes, it is a bit extreme, but it in no way shape or form somehow details a 'power hungry corporate entity.'
Take for example, a remix of the original song that is released to make a profit. Does the remixer have to obtain a license from the original artist? Most likely, yes. Even if we treat KeSPA's broadcasted games as derivative works, it's much the same situation. KeSPA and KeSPA supporters might disagree, but this sort of 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is in no way out of line or even unreasonable. Heavy handed? Sure. Unreasonable? Not really.
(In my opinion, KeSPA really messed this point up. They should have agreed to 100% ownership of all material and consolidated IP (I dunno, file patents, whatever) on the actual infrastructure and technology involved in that infrastructure to broadcast the games. That would allow them to maintain essentially 'buyer power' over Blizzard, as well as expand potentially in the future. Big wasted opportunity, but I'm not surprised either. )
5) Right to audit is justified by seeking transparency. I do not see how this is unreasonable. It happens in M&As all the time, and also for licensing deals for R&D involving milestone payments. It probably occurs a lot more than just in those situations too.
6) This is really the only claim that seems a bit iffy; however, the intent doesn't seem to be very insidious. I don't have much to say on it, only that it would allow Blizzard to direct the actions of BW pros (such as play in this, go here, etc), but without really understanding what sort of contracts Blizzard would be offering the players, I can't comment further. On the surface, this does seem a bit suspect; however, given how deeply in depends on the nature of a Blizzard-progamer contract (which I bet no one really knows anything about), it is definitely short-sighted to just claim this as a power grab.
I think BW supporters are simply acting irrational over this entire issue. Granted, it is understandable; however, when logic comes into play, irrationality needs to go away. A lot of quibbles from both sides (the whole 'BW will detract from SC2' thing makes NO sense to me whatsoever; what indication can you have that BW will detract from sales? I bet you can't even find a solid quantitative comparable example in D2 vs Diablo!) display more emotional responses than actual rational logic.
I had to respond to this point because, as far as 'demands' go, these seemed fairly reasonable just by inspection, given Blizzard's severe lack of knowledge as to KeSPA's activities. It is only insidious if you read these terms with a preconceived ideal that Blizzard seeks to take over; otherwise, it doesn't seem like a real, sustainable power grab (haha, sure, cause Blizz will develop KeSPA capabilities and forward integrate IN ONE YEAR, ok). This suggests that emotional bias runs rampant, and it creates an uncomfortable environment for everyone.
As for me, I think KeSPA was a bit short sighted, and Blizzard is playing hard ball a bit too much. However, I do not think Blizzard's actions are unreasonable. KeSPA, on the other hand, had a great opportunity during negotiations to really assure Blizzard of their intentions and blew it because of their ego. Now, we have a big mess on our hands. I can't venture to guess the outcome, but looking back, I see no indication of Blizzard's behavior being representative of a take over of the industry at all.
Wow, very long post. Too bad it's based on errors. Is that what you're building your statement upon?
Wow, very short post. Too bad it's based on nothing. Is that what you're building your statement upon?
Were you living under a rock past the last three years?
"1. Set the contract term for using its games to 1 year 2. Prior approvals about all league operations such as contracting sponsorship, marketing materials, broadcasting plan 3. License fee for running of league and all license fee of sponsorship inducement 4. Ownership of all broadcasted programs, program videos 5. Right to audit KeSPA 6. Additional contracts between blizzard and KeSPA progamers that override the contracts between the latter and KeSPA teams"
Those were blizzard's demands... If that is not demanding total control, then I don't know what is. T______T
And, of course, blizzard never said they want to run the BW scene, as in host the tournaments, etc. They simply want to profit from something others invest hundreds of millions of dollars without investing any money whatsoever themselves, and be able to do whatever they want (like deliberately damage BW to support their other product - sc2, which is what gretech attempted).
I kind of have to respond to this, mainly because the way these demands are being interpreted seems grossly misplaced. In order:
1) I honestly do not see how 1 year is unreasonable. Blizzard and KeSPA are two very different entities, and Blizzard would simply be unsure as to KeSPA operations and how KeSPA has been utilizing the Starcraft IP (the 'platform,' if you will). Transparency as to how KeSPA selects sponsors, how KeSPA attains funding for its activities, and how KeSPA as a whole operates is very limited, particularly because Blizzard is not a native Korean firm and has a limited grasp on the business culture and environment. Add to this the fact that the main short-term impetus for negotiations beginning in 2007 was the KeSPA broadcasting rights event. How is 1 year unreasonable from Blizzard's point of view?
I can see how it's unreasonable to KeSPA (hell, we've been doing this solely ourselves FOR YEARS), but overall, I don't see how it is unreasonable at all. Blizzard doesn't know KeSPA. Blizzard has some valuable IP (Starcraft franchise and the game itself) which is being used in a way it probably has neither predicted nor really fully understands. However, Blizzard recognizes that some sort of licensing time frame is appropriate. From my standpoint, a year (maybe 2) is perfectly legitimate going from the position that I simply do not know how they are operating.
Before I get jumped on for this, not even KeSPA supporters on this forum really know how KeSPA operates. We don't know their decision making process. We don't know how sponsors are decided. We don't even know why they decided to pull players out of GomTV a while back. We can make posits on motives, but fundamentally, the majority of both SC2 supports and Brood War diehards simply do not know how the company operates. Neither does Blizzard. From this standpoint, a year seems very legitimate to me; it'll give Blizzard time to really understand what and how KeSPA does with the Starcraft IP. It's short enough to be flexible, in case there is some sort of abuse or some sort of bad development, etc, but long enough to keep the BW tournament structure (one full year) stable without breaking it up.
Moving on.
2) This is a little extreme, but again, we are dealing with a 'non-profit' foreign company. For the sake of transparency, I'd say this 'demand' is not a demand, but a simple request. Sure, it is worded to set a precedent that Blizzard ultimately has the ability to decide what people do with its game (which, though debatable, seems to have reached a grudging consensus) but the spirit of the 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is for transparency.
Let's approach this from another angle. What CAN Blizzard REALLY DO with this 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) in place, if the deal goes through? Is Blizzard going to veto a sponsor for pumping in tons of money? Are they going to say 'hey, we don't want to pay players anymore; too expensive?' Are they going to say 'we're closing the leagues, omg?' As far as I can tell, this 'control' issue just boils down to a mistrust that Blizzard wants to actively shut down the BW progaming scene. If we take it from the assumption that Blizzard doesn't wish to shut down BW, I don't see how this 'demand' (sarcastic quotation marks) will really change the status quo at all.
Of course, we can't really 'know' whether Blizzard wants to or does not want to shut down the BW scene. However, that being said, this 'demand' is 50/50 in regards to BW's longevity. Qualitatively, there is no reason to transmit bias and somehow warp it into 'womg Blizz wants to control IT ALL.' That is simply under the assumption that Blizzard would want to exercise the power to make a drastic change to the BW scene, and thus, demonstrates an emotional response from many forumers rather than rational thinking.
3). So Blizz wants a licensing fee. Wow. That's so out there, and such an outrageous demand. I can't imagine this occurring ANYWHERE else; it's not like companies ever have to buy licenses for the use of specific products. Oh wait ...
Pointedly, without hard numbers, there is no way to judge. Additionally, eSports despite sharing commonalities with existing industries, is a new industry. There are no precendents set for this sort of thing. To an objective observer, a licensing fee is neither outrageous nor a 'demand;' even with seemingly 'outrageous' figures, there are no proceeding comparative situations. Who's to say?
My point is that 'demand' 3 is not supportive of 'Blizzard womg kill BW now cry.'
4) Don't see what's so wrong with this either. 100% ownership is a little meh, but even WoW players don't own any percentage of their character (It's in the EULA). I'm almost certain that this could have been negotiated somehow, or dealt with in a more constructive manner. Yes, it is a bit extreme, but it in no way shape or form somehow details a 'power hungry corporate entity.'
Take for example, a remix of the original song that is released to make a profit. Does the remixer have to obtain a license from the original artist? Most likely, yes. Even if we treat KeSPA's broadcasted games as derivative works, it's much the same situation. KeSPA and KeSPA supporters might disagree, but this sort of 'demand' (heavy sarcastic quotation marks) is in no way out of line or even unreasonable. Heavy handed? Sure. Unreasonable? Not really.
(In my opinion, KeSPA really messed this point up. They should have agreed to 100% ownership of all material and consolidated IP (I dunno, file patents, whatever) on the actual infrastructure and technology involved in that infrastructure to broadcast the games. That would allow them to maintain essentially 'buyer power' over Blizzard, as well as expand potentially in the future. Big wasted opportunity, but I'm not surprised either. )
5) Right to audit is justified by seeking transparency. I do not see how this is unreasonable. It happens in M&As all the time, and also for licensing deals for R&D involving milestone payments. It probably occurs a lot more than just in those situations too.
6) This is really the only claim that seems a bit iffy; however, the intent doesn't seem to be very insidious. I don't have much to say on it, only that it would allow Blizzard to direct the actions of BW pros (such as play in this, go here, etc), but without really understanding what sort of contracts Blizzard would be offering the players, I can't comment further. On the surface, this does seem a bit suspect; however, given how deeply in depends on the nature of a Blizzard-progamer contract (which I bet no one really knows anything about), it is definitely short-sighted to just claim this as a power grab.
I think BW supporters are simply acting irrational over this entire issue. Granted, it is understandable; however, when logic comes into play, irrationality needs to go away. A lot of quibbles from both sides (the whole 'BW will detract from SC2' thing makes NO sense to me whatsoever; what indication can you have that BW will detract from sales? I bet you can't even find a solid quantitative comparable example in D2 vs Diablo!) display more emotional responses than actual rational logic.
I had to respond to this point because, as far as 'demands' go, these seemed fairly reasonable just by inspection, given Blizzard's severe lack of knowledge as to KeSPA's activities. It is only insidious if you read these terms with a preconceived ideal that Blizzard seeks to take over; otherwise, it doesn't seem like a real, sustainable power grab (haha, sure, cause Blizz will develop KeSPA capabilities and forward integrate IN ONE YEAR, ok). This suggests that emotional bias runs rampant, and it creates an uncomfortable environment for everyone.
As for me, I think KeSPA was a bit short sighted, and Blizzard is playing hard ball a bit too much. However, I do not think Blizzard's actions are unreasonable. KeSPA, on the other hand, had a great opportunity during negotiations to really assure Blizzard of their intentions and blew it because of their ego. Now, we have a big mess on our hands. I can't venture to guess the outcome, but looking back, I see no indication of Blizzard's behavior being representative of a take over of the industry at all.
Wow, very long post. Too bad it's based on errors. Is that what you're building your statement upon?
Wow, very short post. Too bad it's based on nothing. Is that what you're building your statement upon?
Yeah, sure. Arguments like "nah, its not as bad", "nah, little extreme but i think its not demand but request", "nah, I think that could be negociated somehow" are so much better. Man, except point 3 he didnt write anything that wasnt kind of argument "whats wrong with you, this is not as bad as it seems".
[QUOTE]On October 27 2010 23:05 infinity2k9 wrote: [QUOTE]On October 26 2010 22:07 Chriamon wrote: [QUOTE]On October 26 2010 09:56 infinity2k9 wrote: [QUOTE]On October 26 2010 05:51 Shockk wrote:
regarding Kespa/Korean Esports scene:
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues [/QUOTE]
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...][/QUOTE] ... . But don't call it a monopoly as if KeSPA is somehow forcing this imaginary competition out of the business. .... [/QUOTE]
KeSPA did forbid bw teams and players to participate in gomtv bw tournaments. Thats hindering competion in my opinion.
On October 28 2010 06:22 parkin wrote: KeSPA did forbid bw teams and players to participate in gomtv bw tournaments. Thats hindering competion in my opinion.
Uhh... those are KeSPA's teams and players. GOM could have set up tournaments with their own players/teams (if they had any) or just an open tournament a la GSL where they have prelims open to the public. They wanted to use KeSPA teams and players, and some of the teams later pulled out in Season 3, there's nothing wrong with that.
On October 28 2010 06:22 parkin wrote: KeSPA did forbid bw teams and players to participate in gomtv bw tournaments. Thats hindering competion in my opinion.
Uhh... those are KeSPA's teams and players. GOM could have set up tournaments with their own players/teams (if they had any) or just an open tournament a la GSL where they have prelims open to the public. They wanted to use KeSPA teams and players, and some of the teams later pulled out in Season 3, there's nothing wrong with that.
And no KeSPA never did that. KeSPA only stated that they wouldn't get any KeSPA rank gains from participating in GOM since it wasn't a tournament ruled by KeSPA, which is pretty logical when you think about it. Hence the players placed GOM at the bottom of their prio list and as a result, the teams started telling their players not to waste time on that tournament since they had better stuff to practice for (PL/OSL/MSL).
Edit: GOM = individual STX Masters for the KeSPA teams. The main difference being it's played during OSL/MSL seasons.
On October 28 2010 03:48 Whiladan wrote: Wow, very short post. Too bad it's based on nothing. Is that what you're building your statement upon?
The errors he's mentioning as facts has already been stated as errors countless times before, I can't understand why I should have to repeat them AGAIN just because he's ignorant. Waste of time to point out every single error.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Sorry this has already been gone over and over in the last few pages but some people dont even understand the real world at all apparently and how things work. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. KeSPA has the players because they had a draft, chose the players and gave them contracts. Many many players never even make it. There's no shortage of willing gamers out there. But you can't expect to take other teams contracted players to come and play for you can you?
Run your OWN draft, make your own teams, get your own sponsors. The reason there is no other KeSPA is because its a niche market already and there really is zero need for it in the first place. If i went to Korea, started my own Super Starcraft Power League, drafted gamers got teams and did everything needed to run eSports then KeSPA could not stop me. There might be disagreements about broadcasting because the main 2 channels are OGN and MBC but that is how business works, its competitive. If i gave the broadcasters a great offer i could get my SSPL on TV and be the main BW league. Of course none of this will happen because its completely financially not viable. But don't call it a monopoly as if KeSPA is somehow forcing this imaginary competition out of the business.
Btw i'm not some blind supporter in this argument, KeSPA and in particular sometimes its rule decisions and player drafting is harsh on the players. But that's how things are, no organization is perfect. It's like FIFA refusing goal-line technology even though we clearly need it. But when it comes to the business side of things and how they have created such a sustainable and well run scene, there's no way anyone should want to disrupt that. The only reason Blizzard do is for control/profit, simple as that.
Mate, I think you should check your definitions or take some economics classes.
I don't know why you stubbornly refuse to call KESPA a monopoly (I mean, who cares) when it obviously is one. I mean, if you take KESPA out of the BW market, you'll have:
On October 28 2010 07:22 dazer wrote: This is so much fun!
Going through your post history regarding the BW scene (more specifically BW vs SC2) I see a lot of 1-2 line flamebait posts that add no real content to any discussion... whats your endgame here?
On October 28 2010 07:22 dazer wrote: This is so much fun!
Going through your post history regarding the BW scene (more specifically BW vs SC2) I see a lot of 1-2 line flamebait posts that add no real content to any discussion... whats your endgame here?
People are too overdramatic about this.
I played broodwar but was never truly a fan of BW scene so I wouldn't be able to understand what you guys are fighting for.
But nonetheless, you guys are really swarming Kespa's balls too much; since it's just like any other organization, it all comes down to money.
I enjoy SC2 a lot more than SCBW so I don't really mind no longer having BW in the esport scene.
On October 28 2010 07:22 dazer wrote: This is so much fun!
Going through your post history regarding the BW scene (more specifically BW vs SC2) I see a lot of 1-2 line flamebait posts that add no real content to any discussion... whats your endgame here?
People are too overdramatic about this.
I played broodwar but was never truly a fan of BW scene so I wouldn't be able to understand what you guys are fighting for.
But nonetheless, you guys are really swarming Kespa's balls too much; since it's just like any other organization, it all comes down to money.
I enjoy SC2 a lot more than SCBW so I don't really mind no longer having BW in the esport scene.
I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Noone brings up English commentary as a bad thing. It's just not as important as team-support for the league and not over-burdening the players. Do you disagree with that assessment?
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
I second this post. In my opinion, Korean commentary show much more enthusiasm and is thus able to elevate the excitement of watching a game to the next level.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
I second this post. In my opinion, Korean commentary show much more enthusiasm and is thus able to elevate the excitement of watching a game to the next level.
I agree, although having said that the GSL Korean commentators are nowhere near as good as the OGN ones.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
Nope. The english commentary is one of many reasons why I find GSL far less exciting to watch compared to PL/OSL/MSL. Having english commentary as an option is great, but I would never trade Korean commentary for Tasteless/Artosis/Day[9] commentary. I'm sure many others feel the same way.
I second this post. In my opinion, Korean commentary show much more enthusiasm and is thus able to elevate the excitement of watching a game to the next level.
I agree, although having said that the GSL Korean commentators are nowhere near as good as the OGN ones.
Or even the MBC ones. That GOM girls voice gets on my nerves every time, even in the background.
The main problem that I have with all this commentary business is that NOBODY ELSE CAN DO THEM. Nothing from Gom can go up on Youtube or anything, so it's Tastleless/Artosis or nothing. For Brood War, we've had Cholera, Klazart, Nuke, Ranshin, Rise, Diggity, Moletrap, etc. Or, as many prefer, just the Korean commentators. Not necessarily a big fan of all of them, but the point is that you had a choice, and new people could always start doing commentaries if they wanted to. With the GSL, that is all gone. Not a lotta fun.
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Sorry this has already been gone over and over in the last few pages but some people dont even understand the real world at all apparently and how things work. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. KeSPA has the players because they had a draft, chose the players and gave them contracts. Many many players never even make it. There's no shortage of willing gamers out there. But you can't expect to take other teams contracted players to come and play for you can you?
Run your OWN draft, make your own teams, get your own sponsors. The reason there is no other KeSPA is because its a niche market already and there really is zero need for it in the first place. If i went to Korea, started my own Super Starcraft Power League, drafted gamers got teams and did everything needed to run eSports then KeSPA could not stop me. There might be disagreements about broadcasting because the main 2 channels are OGN and MBC but that is how business works, its competitive. If i gave the broadcasters a great offer i could get my SSPL on TV and be the main BW league. Of course none of this will happen because its completely financially not viable. But don't call it a monopoly as if KeSPA is somehow forcing this imaginary competition out of the business.
Btw i'm not some blind supporter in this argument, KeSPA and in particular sometimes its rule decisions and player drafting is harsh on the players. But that's how things are, no organization is perfect. It's like FIFA refusing goal-line technology even though we clearly need it. But when it comes to the business side of things and how they have created such a sustainable and well run scene, there's no way anyone should want to disrupt that. The only reason Blizzard do is for control/profit, simple as that.
Mate, I think you should check your definitions or take some economics classes.
I don't know why you stubbornly refuse to call KESPA a monopoly (I mean, who cares) when it obviously is one. I mean, if you take KESPA out of the BW market, you'll have:
??? (some Chinese tournaments) WCG (16 players)
Why are you so intent on arguing with this? You don't seem to argue any point than that it is a monopoly, despite me clearly explaining a whole situation that shows it would not be, is there no reason anyone else cannot start their own KeSPA. What monopolistic business practices are they pursuing, considering we are talking about a non-profit anyway. Is FIFA a monopoly? Or any other sports organizations such as the NFL? Using monopoly in a negative term in this discussion is very unnecessary and silly. It's clearly not a coercive monopoly, and it's not a natural monopoly either.
If i'm a sole trader who's business is selling something completely unique, would you say i was a monopoly despite not actually doing any actions or having any control to hinder anyone elses access to that market? Even if it was technically true you know full well it's commonly used as a negative term and certainly in regards to this matter it is. This analogy is dumb anyway because we are talking about what's supposed to now be regarded a sport.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
You really want to argue every point you? I just don't care about the commentary, which is the only reason any gets so defensive over GOM, It was very amateur and sloppy at times. But the main point is the GOM was not needed and nobody practiced for it, that's why the level of play was so bad. While that was entertaining in a way in cannot compare to the real leagues. English commentators for the KeSPA tournaments would be great if it was actually done well and professionally, but other than that i don't care. Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison.
Back to the commentary point, i honestly didnt think that theres anyone that could have preferred the English commentaries (from Tasteless and Artosis).. In my opinion, they lack both indepth knowledge for the game, as well as the passion as a commentators (or lack of ability to express their own passion).. Im excited by the Korean commentators in many games that i watch, they are filled with excitement during exciting situations, their emotions really get to me during games and make me more excited too.. Whereas the Tastosis commentary were (pardon me) an ear-sore for me.. I muted the stream everytime i tried to watch Sc2.. Even the Observer for BW is much more skillful, and i appreciate observers even more after that series between Hincram and MasterAsia (SC2)..
- pretty much built up everything from scratch - Kespa doesn't treat players well and has a monopoly on everything that happens - dismissed Blizzard at almost every opportunity in the current conflict - started leagues regardless of the current issues
[...]
Also there's no monopoly. Start your own KeSPA, start everything up if you like. But do not like GOM did, expect KeSPA paid and sponsored players to play in your events. Why should they? They are under contract, i'm surprised they were allowed for any GOM leagues and in the end it was the teams and not KeSPA who repeatedly pulled players out until it was nothing. [...]
You say theres no monopoly, and then you go on to describe a monopoly... KeSPA obviously has a monopoly, you cannot start your own "KeSPA," there are no players to contract.
Sorry this has already been gone over and over in the last few pages but some people dont even understand the real world at all apparently and how things work. What you are saying doesn't even make sense. KeSPA has the players because they had a draft, chose the players and gave them contracts. Many many players never even make it. There's no shortage of willing gamers out there. But you can't expect to take other teams contracted players to come and play for you can you?
Run your OWN draft, make your own teams, get your own sponsors. The reason there is no other KeSPA is because its a niche market already and there really is zero need for it in the first place. If i went to Korea, started my own Super Starcraft Power League, drafted gamers got teams and did everything needed to run eSports then KeSPA could not stop me. There might be disagreements about broadcasting because the main 2 channels are OGN and MBC but that is how business works, its competitive. If i gave the broadcasters a great offer i could get my SSPL on TV and be the main BW league. Of course none of this will happen because its completely financially not viable. But don't call it a monopoly as if KeSPA is somehow forcing this imaginary competition out of the business.
Btw i'm not some blind supporter in this argument, KeSPA and in particular sometimes its rule decisions and player drafting is harsh on the players. But that's how things are, no organization is perfect. It's like FIFA refusing goal-line technology even though we clearly need it. But when it comes to the business side of things and how they have created such a sustainable and well run scene, there's no way anyone should want to disrupt that. The only reason Blizzard do is for control/profit, simple as that.
Mate, I think you should check your definitions or take some economics classes.
I don't know why you stubbornly refuse to call KESPA a monopoly (I mean, who cares) when it obviously is one. I mean, if you take KESPA out of the BW market, you'll have:
??? (some Chinese tournaments) WCG (16 players)
Why are you so intent on arguing with this? You don't seem to argue any point than that it is a monopoly, despite me clearly explaining a whole situation that shows it would not be, is there no reason anyone else cannot start their own KeSPA. What monopolistic business practices are they pursuing, considering we are talking about a non-profit anyway. Is FIFA a monopoly? Or any other sports organizations such as the NFL? Using monopoly in a negative term in this discussion is very unnecessary and silly. It's clearly not a coercive monopoly, and it's not a natural monopoly either.
If i'm a sole trader who's business is selling something completely unique, would you say i was a monopoly despite not actually doing any actions or having any control to hinder anyone elses access to that market? Even if it was technically true you know full well it's commonly used as a negative term and certainly in regards to this matter it is. This analogy is dumb anyway because we are talking about what's supposed to now be regarded a sport.
On October 28 2010 08:39 infinity2k9 wrote: I wish people would stop bringing the GOM Season 3 thing up. As if we needed another individual league that nobody practiced for. Yes it had English commentators, great. Tasteless going on about the pandabear guy was funny the first few times.
Why are you bringing up English commentary as if it's a bad thing. It sure as hell beats Korean commentary, and I'm sure if Tasteless was paid to cover the proleague you'd be all over his nuts.
You really want to argue every point you? I just don't care about the commentary, which is the only reason any gets so defensive over GOM, It was very amateur and sloppy at times. But the main point is the GOM was not needed and nobody practiced for it, that's why the level of play was so bad. While that was entertaining in a way in cannot compare to the real leagues. English commentators for the KeSPA tournaments would be great if it was actually done well and professionally, but other than that i don't care. Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison.
That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
On October 28 2010 18:20 toadstool wrote: That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
FIFA and NFL are not monopolies. there are amateur and junior leagues for soccer and football etc that organize their own tournament with prize pools and even broadcast their games locally.
On October 28 2010 18:20 toadstool wrote: That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
FIFA and NFL are not monopolies. there are amateur and junior leagues for soccer and football etc that organize their own tournament with prize pools and even broadcast their games locally.
You don't need to be the only company in a field to be a monopoly. Microsoft dealt with this in the past when it got taken to court.
On October 28 2010 18:20 toadstool wrote: That's because FIFA and the NFL is recognised as the governing body of their respective sports. And yes, they are monopolies. What of it?
I think it's more the way you put your arguments about which I find annoying You use outlandish statements to back up your arguments. "Anyone who watches MSL/OSL/PL regularly knows GOM was a joke in comparison."
And sorry , the level of play for GSL was not bad. It's not Starcraft standards, but it's definitely not bad.
But each to their own I guess. I prefer to understand my commentary, if the PL had English commentary I would definitely pay $20 to watch.
FIFA and NFL are not monopolies. there are amateur and junior leagues for soccer and football etc that organize their own tournament with prize pools and even broadcast their games locally.
You don't need to be the only company in a field to be a monopoly. Microsoft dealt with this in the past when it got taken to court.
Microsoft lost a court case because of their bundling of software with new computer users therefore supposedly giving the user less choice. It's not really relevant to this discussion at all.
On October 28 2010 17:55 ffreakk wrote: Back to the commentary point, i honestly didnt think that theres anyone that could have preferred the English commentaries (from Tasteless and Artosis).. In my opinion, they lack both indepth knowledge for the game, as well as the passion as a commentators (or lack of ability to express their own passion).. Im excited by the Korean commentators in many games that i watch, they are filled with excitement during exciting situations, their emotions really get to me during games and make me more excited too.. Whereas the Tastosis commentary were (pardon me) an ear-sore for me.. I muted the stream everytime i tried to watch Sc2.. Even the Observer for BW is much more skillful, and i appreciate observers even more after that series between Hincram and MasterAsia (SC2)..
I don't see how the bolded phrase could be a relevant issue if you're watching the cast in a language you don't understand. You would get considerably less knowledge listening to Korean besides the obligatory 'PLAAAGGGUU" from BW or it's SC2 equivalent.
I, in turn, am surprised that you would be surprised that people would want casts in a language understandable to them. Are you in the habit of watching sports games with casters in another language? (To counter the 'I-don't-need-a-caster-to-tell-me-what's-going-on'... I also do not need a commentator giving me a play by play in ice hockey, yet I prefer to watch it in my own language.) I like to watch films from China, but I prefer to have the subtitles on. Are these things so strange? Perhaps this is because you began watching the proleagues before the GOMTV Avertec/ youtube commentator days and were used to not knowing what they were saying? But most people joining after the early years, would not be so dedicated to that viewing experience.
But this is no way to expand e-sports outside of Korea. The average non-Korean gamer will have to be enormously interested to bother watching games with a language barrier. E-sports is already a niche viewing experience, why wish to obfuscate the experience arbitrarily and deliberately? (Doesn't really matter whether the non-Korean is English-speaking, German, or whatever. Most people getting into an area of interest are going to want it in their own language- is that really such a surprise?)
I find prefering Korean casters over english ones extremely weird. I guess it must simply be because you got used to it first. Because, sense it makes not. I guess excitment is nice but anyone who hasnt played the game (indepth) has no clue whats going on or why they are excited. And even if have played alot you might not see why their so excited. Ive watched those youtube videos with montages of great games or whatever and the Koreans are screamiing about something but all I see is pixels moving. I have absolutely no clue what is happening and thus Im not excited. I might be watching the greatest thing in the universe but I wouldnt know since all I hear is gibberish.
i dont care what happens as long as there is broodwar for me to watch, and it seems that if blizzard wins then we can all say farewell to broodwar. so, even though kespa isnt perfect, go kespa!
I thought this thread was about Blizzard suing MBCGame, it seems I am wrong and it is instead about Commentary and the definition of Monopoly. Here's what I think:
Monopoly:
If you guys don't get your definitions right, how can you expect to even come to a point on this? While it may or may not be a monopoly in terms of definition, for Broodwar leagues in Korea it definitely feels like one.
For me, a monopoly in any field means that all or most power over that field is controlled by one body. And that body is the Kespa for Broodwar. Of course you can start your own leagues, but if there aren't any good players participating, it is of no use. And since all good players are bound to Kespa by contract, that is the case. (For example: While you can get and run another OS than Windows, for many common applications, there just are no Linux or even Mac versions. Of course can I run my Ubuntu, but if over 90% of Computers run Windows, that is a monopoly for Microsoft there.)
Commentary: Well, I think that is a totally personal preference. I do like the "Tastosis" Commentary a lot, it is fun, and they provide enough indepth knowledge to entertain me. Otherwise, I can as much understand People that would rather hear the korean cast, they are normally far more excited about matches. It's pretty much useless to argue about that.
On the original thematic: That is a hard one. While I don't necessarily like the KeSPA itself, I feel it is important for them to win this on the grounds that tournaments and casts should be free to make without having to pay the producer royalties just for using their game. That is, if it is really true that the KeSPA is not making any profits of it. If they do, it's a whole different scenario. Well, I will see how things go, I'm definitely very interested in how it will turn out.
On October 29 2010 16:59 snpnx wrote: Of course you can start your own leagues, but if there aren't any good players participating, it is of no use. And since all good players are bound to Kespa by contract, that is the case.
In an example relevant to your country: Bayern Munich can afford to buy all the best players, does that make them a monopoly in Football?
As much as you and I find that exciting, it's more of an effort to watch the game in another language. You limit your audience immediately with a language barrier, no how matter how exciting it is- if I recommend that a friend watch SCBW pro-leagues, one of the selling features will never be, oh and the Korean casters are really exciting. They'll be 'lol, wut?' Anything not in their own language is usually discounted immediately as people are lazy. Whereas, I show them an old Tasteless and SDM video, or a Day9 Daily and it's immediately more accessible. Maybe people should be less lazy, but maybe if people want e-sports to flourish we shouldn't fight this natural tendency.
But now I think I'll stop sidetracking this thread.
On October 29 2010 16:59 snpnx wrote: Of course you can start your own leagues, but if there aren't any good players participating, it is of no use. And since all good players are bound to Kespa by contract, that is the case.
In an example relevant to your country: Bayern Munich can afford to buy all the best players, does that make them a monopoly in Football?
No, because while they can probably buy them individually, even Bayern Munich does not have enough money to do so for ALL of them.
It would be more like this:
If Bayern Munich bought all good players in Germany and would host their own soccer tourney, while at the same time disallowing them from entering other tourneys, it would relate to the KeSPA, and then in fact Bayern Munich would have a monopoly over German football.
Edit: That said, while it is interesting and certainly of matter if you consider KeSPA a monopoly or not, I would much rather like to get some updates about reactions or statements from either Blizzard or MBC/OGN. After all, this threat is about the lawsuit.
On October 29 2010 16:59 snpnx wrote: Of course you can start your own leagues, but if there aren't any good players participating, it is of no use. And since all good players are bound to Kespa by contract, that is the case.
In an example relevant to your country: Bayern Munich can afford to buy all the best players, does that make them a monopoly in Football?
No, because while they can probably buy them individually, even Bayern Munich does not have enough money to do so for ALL of them.
It would be more like this:
If Bayern Munich bought all good players in Germany and would host their own soccer tourney, while at the same time disallowing them from entering other tourneys, it would relate to the KeSPA, and then in fact Bayern Munich would have a monopoly over German football.
Edit: That said, while it is interesting and certainly of matter if you consider KeSPA a monopoly or not, I would much rather like to get some updates about reactions or statements from either Blizzard or MBC/OGN. After all, this threat is about the lawsuit.
How does KeSPA have enough to buy ALL of the players? The common complaint on here is that they are not paid enough and so it would be probably very possible to buy out KeSPA contracted players. There is nothing stopping anyone from doing it. Also its interesting to point out it is a big discussion at the moment about football and if teams having too much money to spend on players is a problem as well.
If this dose kill Sc:Bw ill take my hat off to blizzard for being amazing at not only making games (in the past) but also just as good at killing them but not quite as good as ruining them (looking at you WoW and maybe Sc:Bw)
Wonder what happened in the blizzard office, man for so many years so many good games and great ideas and memories of their awesomeness and then ....... wth? how with WoW Sc2 and D3 about to hit down, are you not making enough money to keep your shareholders and such happy?
Just not sure when the company i loved for years just kinda gave up and died, for such smart teams and minds of past and present (they cant all be stupid) makes me wonder what the hells going on behind their doors that they would make moves like this.
Kespa is obviously a monopoly, but monopolies aren't illegal, but rather coercive monopolies are. Not really interested debating the subject further or elaborating my position.
On October 30 2010 02:35 Azalie wrote: If this dose kill Sc:Bw ill take my hat off to blizzard for being amazing at not only making games (in the past) but also just as good at killing them but not quite as good as ruining them (looking at you WoW and maybe Sc:Bw)
... What? I mean, it looks like English.. but is it? Somebody, help me out here.
Anyway, I know that Blizzard has been a bunch of dicks ever since they released Wow, but is this really necessary? It's ok that Blizzard releases another shitty game, we're used to that by now - War3, Wow, and everything else that came after D2:LOD - but why do they want to kill the memory of their departed greatness??
On October 30 2010 01:47 sceroh wrote: lol that's irony scbw is so successful that their own creators have to get rid of it in order to sell scII
Yea you are totally right. SC2 only sold 3 million copies in the first month it was out. That is so weak they better hurry up and shut down BW already.
On October 30 2010 01:47 sceroh wrote: lol that's irony scbw is so successful that their own creators have to get rid of it in order to sell scII
Yea you are totally right. SC2 only sold 3 million copies in the first month it was out. That is so weak they better hurry up and shut down BW already.
And no it's not ironic.
Starcraft 1 sold 1.5 million the first year it came out.
Why are people convinced that Blizzard is trying to destroy BW? Honest question, I'm sure it's possible, but I find it a little hard to believe given that BW progaming appears to be a massively profitable enterprise. The rational thing would be that Blizzard simply wants its cut (as well as some access to television broadcasting, where KeSPA's control of it hurts progaming), and so is forcing the issue by suing.
For the sake of keeping the true e-sports scene alive, and not allowing Blizzard to have their way every single time, they must lose this case.
I'm sure there's been a noticable decrease in product quality from Blizzard, both from WoW and SC2 -> pushing e-sports with a game lacking features (chat, LAN are basic components of multiplayer, hell, they were too lazy to make the portraits move like in WC3) and made with many limitations in place...
Maybe if they lose the case they'll wake up and realize they can't throw money at things and force stuff on people.
Me in their business plan: Play WoW, they introduce features to limit gameplay/attract casuals, bored -> buy SC2 while still paying for WoW subscription due to upcoming expansion -> probably buy their next game when their old ones get boring. Rather than buying them because they are exceptionally awesome. (Their games are decent, but it feels like there's less substance in them nowadays.)
Honestly, watching Tasteless talk about Starcraft in Avertec Intel Classic was great to start off; it was sorta funny, but once I got into watching ProLeague... I stopped watching GOM after Season 2, the sheer scale OGN/MBC: the stage, the lights, the intros (Korean ones are sickkk), the intensity of the Korean commentators (I can't understand them, but you can feel their excitement and be into the game), the ridiculously high level play... I can't imagine that scene being threatened by their own parent company T_T.
On November 01 2010 12:10 domovoi wrote: Why are people convinced that Blizzard is trying to destroy BW? Honest question, I'm sure it's possible, but I find it a little hard to believe given that BW progaming appears to be a massively profitable enterprise. The rational thing would be that Blizzard simply wants its cut (as well as some access to television broadcasting, where KeSPA's control of it hurts progaming), and so is forcing the issue by suing.
You've somehow managed to condense many, if not all, of the misconceptions surrounding this issue.
I know that by this point its difficult to acess a source of reliable information regarding the subject. which should be compiled by the staff knowledgeable in the matter, but its astonishing nonetheless.
On November 01 2010 12:10 domovoi wrote: Why are people convinced that Blizzard is trying to destroy BW? Honest question, I'm sure it's possible, but I find it a little hard to believe given that BW progaming appears to be a massively profitable enterprise. The rational thing would be that Blizzard simply wants its cut (as well as some access to television broadcasting, where KeSPA's control of it hurts progaming), and so is forcing the issue by suing.
You've somehow managed to condense many, if not all, of the misconceptions surrounding this issue.
I know that by this point its difficult to acess a source of reliable information regarding the subject. which should be compiled by the staff knowledgeable in the matter, but its astonishing nonetheless.
At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions."
On November 01 2010 12:10 domovoi wrote: Why are people convinced that Blizzard is trying to destroy BW? Honest question, I'm sure it's possible, but I find it a little hard to believe given that BW progaming appears to be a massively profitable enterprise. The rational thing would be that Blizzard simply wants its cut (as well as some access to television broadcasting, where KeSPA's control of it hurts progaming), and so is forcing the issue by suing.
You've somehow managed to condense many, if not all, of the misconceptions surrounding this issue.
I know that by this point its difficult to acess a source of reliable information regarding the subject. which should be compiled by the staff knowledgeable in the matter, but its astonishing nonetheless.
At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions."
For one, according to KeSPA, running a tournament generates no profit if not a significant debt.
On November 01 2010 12:10 domovoi wrote: Why are people convinced that Blizzard is trying to destroy BW? Honest question, I'm sure it's possible, but I find it a little hard to believe given that BW progaming appears to be a massively profitable enterprise. The rational thing would be that Blizzard simply wants its cut (as well as some access to television broadcasting, where KeSPA's control of it hurts progaming), and so is forcing the issue by suing.
You've somehow managed to condense many, if not all, of the misconceptions surrounding this issue.
I know that by this point its difficult to acess a source of reliable information regarding the subject. which should be compiled by the staff knowledgeable in the matter, but its astonishing nonetheless.
At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions."
BW progaming is not a massively profitable enterprise. In fact, profit does not figure as a major incentive for the actors involved. Sponsors, which mantain teams and leagues, are in it for the advertising value that sponsoring has (I guess you could extrapolate from that effective profits for the companies, but BW progaming as is doesnt entail profits)
Activision-Blizzard is a company that earns a lot by means of WoW. The 'cut' they could get has little monetary value for them. This whole ordeal is intended to set strict lines for the difusion of SC2 as a spectator sport that is intended to take place eventaully in Korea. One doubts if this plan to turn SC2 into a eSport doesnt entail ending BW's prominence as the RTS eSport in Korea. This is (mainly) speculation, but founded speculation at least.
KeSPA's control isnt as good as one could imagine it to be, but then again, it does more good than harm when you relate it with the possible incursion of Blizzard as a rector of eSports.
These misconceptions are far more profound than I can make of here, and there are people much more qualified to comment on them. Most of these are clarified in various threads, including this one, but I am aware that it is quite disheartening to have to skim through rants, stupid posts, etc. to actually find them and read them.
The bottom line is, MBCGame, OGN and KeSPA - they all need SCBW to stay alive. SCBW is the bread and butter of Korean eSports and no other game has ever come close to be a substitute for it. Even if they really believed they deserved all the credits for the success of SCBW proscene in Korea, Blizzard happens to be the damn creator of the game that their entire industry is relying on!
I just can't understand why KeSPA stirred up all this shit in the first place, when they should have realized that they needed an agreement with Blizzard more than the other way around, and that they were the weaker side in this relationship.
I don't really care about Blizzard's intentions in this battle whether they wanted to kill off SCBW or just being greedy or whatever, the thing that annoyed me the most was the fact that KeSPA, being self-centered, arrogant and short-sighted as they have always been, has handled this entire thing extremely poorly.
Now, even if KeSPA/MBCGame wins this lawsuit outright (which sounds ridiculously absurd if it would happen, but let's just say so hypothetically). What will KeSPA have? A shrinking SCBW scene with virtually no more new players joining, a dead War3 scene, and a bunch of fail FPS/racing games that no one gives a shit about no matter how hard KeSPA tried to promote it.
Moreover, the worst outcome of all in my opinion from this lawsuit (if KeSPA wins), is that it will set a very bad precedence to any future game IP right disputes in Korea. Any big game developer will have to think twice when they want to make an eSport game for the Korean market, as they won't have any negotiation power against KeSPA if their game ever becomes a popular eSport choice. Game developers will either have to resort to cheap tactics like disabling LAN, or just stop investing into eSport games at all.
And that is only if KeSPA wins this legal battle. If they lose, things could be even worse. This is a lose-lose fight for KeSPA. For Blizzard, it won't hurt them that much (they will probably take it as a lesson for Diablo3 and War4).
In an ideal world, if KeSPA really cared about the future of eSports, they should have immediately sat down with Blizzard when SC2 project was first announced, to resolve any IP right issues and planned a co-existing future for SC1 and SC2. Too bad this KeSPA we have today is no longer the same people who created our amazing SCBW proscene 10 years ago...
this is really sad, especially since blizzard isn't even risking that much. rich taking from the poor =\
even if sc2 proscene dies as a result of StarCraft: Brood War's (may it be forever enshrined in glory) death, blizzard will still be happily alive with WoW and crap >.<
On November 01 2010 14:10 ShadeR wrote: And the Blizzard we have today is neither the same one that created SC.
I know, but I don't care. What I care about is the Korean eSports scene, something that has been entertaining me for nearly 7 years now.
As someone who always claim to work "for the better future of eSports", KeSPA board could have done better. In this battle, if there is one side that needs to step back for the future of eSports, it's them.
On November 01 2010 12:31 night terrors wrote: BW progaming is not a massively profitable enterprise. In fact, profit does not figure as a major incentive for the actors involved. Sponsors, which mantain teams and leagues, are in it for the advertising value that sponsoring has (I guess you could extrapolate from that effective profits for the companies, but BW progaming as is doesnt entail profits)
Activision-Blizzard is a company that earns a lot by means of WoW. The 'cut' they could get has little monetary value for them. This whole ordeal is intended to set strict lines for the difusion of SC2 as a spectator sport that is intended to take place eventaully in Korea. One doubts if this plan to turn SC2 into a eSport doesnt entail ending BW's prominence as the RTS eSport in Korea. This is (mainly) speculation, but founded speculation at least.
KeSPA's control isnt as good as one could imagine it to be, but then again, it does more good than harm when you relate it with the possible incursion of Blizzard as a rector of eSports.
These misconceptions are far more profound than I can make of here, and there are people much more qualified to comment on them. Most of these are clarified in various threads, including this one, but I am aware that it is quite disheartening to have to skim through rants, stupid posts, etc. to actually find them and read them.
Thanks for the explanation.
KeSPA is a non-profit organization, so obviously it does not profit from eSports. As it said in its statement, it reinvests all of its extra income back into the operation, as I imagine it is required to under Korean law regarding non-profit organizations.
However, this says very little about the profitability of its members and affiliates, specifically, the team sponsors and the broadcasters. As you mentioned, advertising is the key revenue generator, but that is true for any professional sport (the other avenues of revenue are ticket sales and merchandise; I have to imagine there's some money being made there, unless they're poor businessmen). Given eSports' popularity in Korea and the fact that several gaming channels have been sustainable, as well as Blizzard's sustained interest in the industry (I mean, why even care about KeSPA if there's no money in it), it must be fairly profitable. More concrete evidence would certainly be helpful, though.
Regarding Blizzard, I'm certain it would prefer if SC2 became more prominent than BW. However, I do not see how "killing" BW would help achieve that goal when BW has a lot of valued infrastructure in terms of established talent, distribution and viewership. By no means should a wise businessman simply assume such infrastructure could easily be transferred to SC2, especially when a significant amount of investment would be lost along the way. Basically, if BW were to suddenly disappear, there is no guarantee the best talent would move to SC2, nor is there any guarantee viewers would follow, especially since SC2 strategies are in a volatile state and thus pose a significant risk to the success of top-flight talent.
In addition, why even bother negotiating for 3 years if their intent was simply to kill off the industry, in which case there is nothing to negotiate and they might as well have sued earlier?
It seems to me that given KeSPA's position as the sole gatekeeper of established sponsors, broadcasters and talent, this gives it a significant amount of leverage against Blizzard, leverage which Blizzard can only counteract with its IP claims. I do not necessarily see this as a bad thing, as eSports in Korea is in dire need of some form of competition. It would, of course, be preferable if KeSPA did not hold artificial control over a significant portion of the industry and if Blizzard did not hold artificial control over broadcast rights of its games. Hopefully a settlement can be reached.
Domovoi, why dont you start by figuring out how revenue is generated at all in SC:BW proscene, rather than randomly speculating that parties involve can earn big bucks etc.. Just a reminder, VoDs + Streams + live seatings are all free.. You ll be hard-pressed to find revenue anywhere at all outside of whatever they could charge the broadcasting stations.. However its rather easy to see that a fair bit of money is needed for organising all their tournaments.. Profit (aka what will go to their exec's salary) is revenue - cost.. So go figure..
@ mrdx
Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years.. How is it that in your rage you blame Kespa for everything and Blizz for none?
Blizz: + Contribute nothing to the scene (outside of selling said game) + Earned money (Korea bought half the number of copies of SC:BW aka best-selling RTS of all time) + Free advertisement for 10 years.. More advertisements to come if SC2 solidify its position as an e-Sport title.
Kespa: - Keep the scene running for 10 years.. Even when they are running a deficit (according to their reports).
Whos the one who should give in more?
That said, im biting my nails in hope for SC:BW to take it home. Go MBC!! *pray*
On November 01 2010 14:10 ShadeR wrote: And the Blizzard we have today is neither the same one that created SC.
I know, but I don't care. What I care about is the Korean eSports scene, something that has been entertaining me for nearly 7 years now.
As someone who always claim to work "for the better future of eSports", KeSPA board could have done better. In this battle, if there is one side that needs to step back for the future of eSports, it's them.
Kespa let me watch Proleague + OSL + MSL for free. I'm quite satisfied.
I spent quite a bit of time thinking of how to respond to this post, but then I realized I couldn't.
I don't know exactly what demands Blizzard made, nor the counterdemands KeSPA made, and yes, I've read all the articles and blogs posted on TL.net so far about it.
We, as a public, don't have any idea exactly what happened in the negotiation rooms. We have outside reports from one individual or one side (usually KeSPA was the one breaking the NDA), but nothing conclusive.
In my opinion, leaving this topic open for comments is just a bad idea because nobody knows what will happen in court, and nobody knows what has happened thus far (NDA).
I could say "I hope Blizzard wins" but then I realized I don't know if Blizzard made unreasonable demands (KeSPA thinks they did, but Blizzard thinks they didn't).
I could say "I hope KeSPA wins" but then game companies will be screwed out of their IP rights in Korea.
On November 01 2010 12:10 domovoi wrote: Why are people convinced that Blizzard is trying to destroy BW? Honest question, I'm sure it's possible, but I find it a little hard to believe given that BW progaming appears to be a massively profitable enterprise. The rational thing would be that Blizzard simply wants its cut (as well as some access to television broadcasting, where KeSPA's control of it hurts progaming), and so is forcing the issue by suing.
You've somehow managed to condense many, if not all, of the misconceptions surrounding this issue.
I know that by this point its difficult to acess a source of reliable information regarding the subject. which should be compiled by the staff knowledgeable in the matter, but its astonishing nonetheless.
At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions."
For one, according to KeSPA, running a tournament generates no profit if not a significant debt.
KeSPA is just organization behind teams and sponsors. DO you really think teams and sponsors don't generate profit from e-sports?
Well the sponsors ie: Samsung, SK, KT. Inject large amounts of money into the upkeep of the teams, players salaries, living quaters, food, equipment etc. This is all for a deficit as anything eSports related is free eg: free to watch on tv, free to stream, free to spectate live from the studio. These companies do however get their brand 'out there' similiar to the way KIA get their brand 'out there' by sponsoring grand slams.
However none of this means that KeSPA makes a profit because as you have said yourself, "KeSPA is just organization behind teams and sponsors."
Just because I want to buy a samsung galaxy S because stork has one, doesn't mean KeSPA profits.
I think your misunderstanding the relationship between KeSPA and the companies that sponsor the teams. The sponsors simply have some of their own within KeSPA as is expected as I'm sure KIA have some of their own within the ranks of the tennis governing body for grandslams. I'll stand corrected if you can prove otherwise.
Theres also that everything I've typed will mean nothing to you if you dispute the fact that KeSPA is a NFP organisation...which is quite ridiculous as not even blizzard will dispute that. Hence one of the major reasons why they are taking MBCgame to court rather than KeSPA.
In terms a PR perspective, I think this move may be very poorly received by the South Korean community who in turn (I'm sure we can all agree) heavily influences/dominates the Starcraft pro-gaming scene. I for one know that Koreans are an extremely nationalistic, to an extent even xenophobic, people, and thus may not perceive this as a simple matter of what's fair or not fair. Having a foreign corporation come in, throw its weight around, and subsequently shut down an organization comprised primarily of Koreans, run by Koreans, created by Koreans, can wind up creating a social stigma in the region against Blizzard that many prospective players of Starcraft 2 may not want to associate with.
Of course greed may win out in the end, and nothing wins hearts and minds like a huge prizepool.... but why go through the trouble?... and have they even considered it?
On November 01 2010 18:13 dcemuser wrote: I spent quite a bit of time thinking of how to respond to this post, but then I realized I couldn't.
I don't know exactly what demands Blizzard made, nor the counterdemands KeSPA made, and yes, I've read all the articles and blogs posted on TL.net so far about it.
We, as a public, don't have any idea exactly what happened in the negotiation rooms. We have outside reports from one individual or one side (usually KeSPA was the one breaking the NDA), but nothing conclusive.
In my opinion, leaving this topic open for comments is just a bad idea because nobody knows what will happen in court, and nobody knows what has happened thus far (NDA).
I could say "I hope Blizzard wins" but then I realized I don't know if Blizzard made unreasonable demands (KeSPA thinks they did, but Blizzard thinks they didn't).
I could say "I hope KeSPA wins" but then game companies will be screwed out of their IP rights in Korea.
I agree 100%. The dearth of information is frustrating. If Blizzard truly is trying to kill BW, then that is deplorable. If it's simply a matter of some wealth transfers between two faceless corporations, then none of us should care and we should be happy that there's finally some competition to KeSPA.
Domovoi, why dont you start by figuring out how revenue is generated at all in SC:BW proscene, rather than randomly speculating that parties involve can earn big bucks etc..
I've tried to look for such information, but I can't find it. I'm inclined to think there's a non-insignificant amount of money to be made given viewership numbers and Blizzard's interest in the market. So it's not random speculation.
On November 01 2010 12:10 domovoi wrote: Why are people convinced that Blizzard is trying to destroy BW? Honest question, I'm sure it's possible, but I find it a little hard to believe given that BW progaming appears to be a massively profitable enterprise. The rational thing would be that Blizzard simply wants its cut (as well as some access to television broadcasting, where KeSPA's control of it hurts progaming), and so is forcing the issue by suing.
You've somehow managed to condense many, if not all, of the misconceptions surrounding this issue.
I know that by this point its difficult to acess a source of reliable information regarding the subject. which should be compiled by the staff knowledgeable in the matter, but its astonishing nonetheless.
At least enlighten me on some of these "misconceptions."
For one, according to KeSPA, running a tournament generates no profit if not a significant debt.
And still KeSPA managed to sell a year of Proleague for what, $500.000 was it? And now all of a sudden they claim it generates no profit while refusing to let Blizzard audit their books. I wouldn't be so fast to call it a 'misconception'.
I can't help but feel that without the Koreans Starcraft Broodwar would never have become what it is....
They should really be thanking these people instead of suing them but I guess that's business?
Anyway Boxer and Nada go to hell lol? Get some therapy or an education because that's an absurd thing to say and you didn't sound like you were joking either.
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but blizzard is sueing MBC not kespa. MBC gets money from its ad.. not the sponsor from tournament but the ads from start and end of the TV series.(considering "KeSPA is just organization behind teams and sponsors.")
Although, why blizzard is asking for money NOW?(2007... after so many years of SC/Tournament) if any, they should be giving salaries to boxer and yellow for advertising their game.. even MBC/OGN for promoting their game.
WC1 and Diablo1? such shitty titles.. there were tons of better games(jrpg, c&c, fire arm, dunes.. etc) If it werent so popular in Korea ever since PC Cafe era.. I could imagine.. they would never be heard of. Now they want money because they are well-known? Is this why Blizzard released first SC2 demo in Korea worldwide? =/
kespa was never about korean esports but just kespa controlled esports. take a look at what they did to gomtvs classic... Hope kespa goes down personally, nice to see them on the opposite end of the stick rather then always trying to shutdown every1/any1 they cant control 100%.
On November 02 2010 16:02 IamAnton wrote: kespa was never about korean esports but just kespa controlled esports. take a look at what they did to gomtvs classic... Hope kespa goes down personally, nice to see them on the opposite end of the stick rather then always trying to shutdown every1/any1 they cant control 100%.
Try reading the topic for christs sake, do we need more uneducated opinions in here
On November 01 2010 16:38 ffreakk wrote: Domovoi, why dont you start by figuring out how revenue is generated at all in SC:BW proscene, rather than randomly speculating that parties involve can earn big bucks etc.. Just a reminder, VoDs + Streams + live seatings are all free.. You ll be hard-pressed to find revenue anywhere at all outside of whatever they could charge the broadcasting stations.. However its rather easy to see that a fair bit of money is needed for organising all their tournaments.. Profit (aka what will go to their exec's salary) is revenue - cost.. So go figure..
@ mrdx
Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years.. How is it that in your rage you blame Kespa for everything and Blizz for none?
Blizz: + Contribute nothing to the scene (outside of selling said game) + Earned money (Korea bought half the number of copies of SC:BW aka best-selling RTS of all time) + Free advertisement for 10 years.. More advertisements to come if SC2 solidify its position as an e-Sport title.
Kespa: - Keep the scene running for 10 years.. Even when they are running a deficit (according to their reports).
Whos the one who should give in more?
That said, im biting my nails in hope for SC:BW to take it home. Go MBC!! *pray*
Also thanks for this post it nicely sums up what i keep saying but people just KEEP ignoring. Hopefully it can count somewhat in court.
On November 01 2010 16:38 ffreakk wrote: Domovoi, why dont you start by figuring out how revenue is generated at all in SC:BW proscene, rather than randomly speculating that parties involve can earn big bucks etc.. Just a reminder, VoDs + Streams + live seatings are all free.. You ll be hard-pressed to find revenue anywhere at all outside of whatever they could charge the broadcasting stations.. However its rather easy to see that a fair bit of money is needed for organising all their tournaments.. Profit (aka what will go to their exec's salary) is revenue - cost.. So go figure..
@ mrdx
Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years.. How is it that in your rage you blame Kespa for everything and Blizz for none?
Blizz: + Contribute nothing to the scene (outside of selling said game) + Earned money (Korea bought half the number of copies of SC:BW aka best-selling RTS of all time) + Free advertisement for 10 years.. More advertisements to come if SC2 solidify its position as an e-Sport title.
Kespa: - Keep the scene running for 10 years.. Even when they are running a deficit (according to their reports).
Whos the one who should give in more?
That said, im biting my nails in hope for SC:BW to take it home. Go MBC!! *pray*
Also thanks for this post it nicely sums up what i keep saying but people just KEEP ignoring. Hopefully it can count somewhat in court.
The awesome thing about the law is that none of this matters. All that matters is that blizzard owns the IP and that MBC and OGN are not respecting that. The law is not emotional nor philosophical, it is only meant to protect entities from other entities and place judgement accordingly. It is very true that SCBW would probably be no where as big today without mbc and ogn, but sc2 would still have come out. What if these companies try to organize tournaments for sc2? Blizzard is not out to make a profit or ruin scbw, they are there to make sure that they can invest in korean esports without being stabbed in the back by the government. This is more of a test for that than anything else.
The law says nothing about how far Blizzard's IP rights extend in the case of Proleague, OSL, MSL, teams and progamers. Which is precisely the reason why this is going to court, to sort that shit out. Try again.
On November 02 2010 15:41 Reason wrote: I can't help but feel that without the Koreans Starcraft Broodwar would never have become what it is....
They should really be thanking these people instead of suing them but I guess that's business?
Anyway Boxer and Nada go to hell lol? Get some therapy or an education because that's an absurd thing to say and you didn't sound like you were joking either.
Because they don't do anything now. I know who they are lol. I know they're legends. But why the hell dont they say anything to support BW. Not even a little. I guess they just took prize money and keep silent? If it's true, then i officially send them both far away and won't ever support anyone of them (although TBH i was going to watch Boxer/Nada, but that bullshit completely freed me from that intention).
About "thats business". I know, but I guess they're not hungry or without roof above their heads. And if so, they shouldn't surpass human morale. iIf they do so, we have absolute moral right to call them dicks.
I too can't help thinking the same mate. They SHOULD thank them instead of suing. And MBC too yes. No advertisement is similar in terms of efficience to showing game on TELEVISION.
On November 02 2010 15:41 Reason wrote: I can't help but feel that without the Koreans Starcraft Broodwar would never have become what it is....
They should really be thanking these people instead of suing them but I guess that's business?
Anyway Boxer and Nada go to hell lol? Get some therapy or an education because that's an absurd thing to say and you didn't sound like you were joking either.
Because they don't do anything now. I know who they are lol. I know they're legends. But why the hell dont they say anything to support BW. Not even a little. I guess they just took prize money and keep silent? If it's true, then i officially send them both far away and won't ever support anyone of them (although TBH i was going to watch Boxer/Nada, but that bullshit completely freed me from that intention).
About "thats business". I know, but I guess they're not hungry or without roof above their heads. And if so, they shouldn't surpass human morale. iIf they do so, we have absolute moral right to call them dicks.
I too can't help thinking the same mate. They SHOULD thank them instead of suing. And MBC too yes. No advertisement is similar in terms of efficience to showing game on TELEVISION.
SC2 is good, kespa is greedy, it's blizzards company and game. Going without food or not it really is BUSINESS. Welcome to the world! I side with blizzard
You don't buy battle.net, you buy the ability to play. All characters - accounts. Lan, other server, or otherwise is all property of blizzard. You can't just take something and say. "since i made you popular it's mine". Starcraft 1 and 2 is blizzards. No matter what you feel your opinion is or how you feel it's immoral for them to do what they do I say:
Your opinion is irrelevant, Kespa is wrong, It is blizzards legal property,
No matter how much you type and complain and argue the points above are still true.
And nada, boxer are starcraft 1 legends. They aren't mass political leaders... leave them alone. They aren't sc2 versions of oprah who has an opinion about anything and everything.
SC2 is good, kespa is greedy, it's blizzards company and game. Going without food or not it really is BUSINESS. Welcome to the world! I side with blizzard
Humanity is always relevant I think. They can't just go against people who earned them money and popularity. It is simply unfair. Yes in terms of legal rights they're right, but generally they are wrong. They're doing pretty unfair, and I think anyone must know it, so they don't side with them.
SC2 is worse and won't make the Legends appear, as has SC1. This game will only last as long as Blizzard "promotes" it. It's worse in terms of e-sportive sense, and do not bother with all these "look at millions playing it" bullshits. We'll see how many will play it after Blizzard finishes spending money on promoting it. And still, I think, it will not have such popularity as BW. Still BW has more people playing/played it.
For example, breaking a friendship is perfectly legal in terms of law, but is it really honorable or good? I wish someone does something really bad and backstabbing to you so you change your opinion (or better, you do change before that so that doesn't happen). This is a backstab against korean proscene. And it's not right by any possible means.
Since that, I don't believe any Blizz's talks about that "they care of something". It could easily be all lie, as they've been lieing all along, why believe them again. -__-
And nada, boxer are starcraft 1 legends. They aren't mass political leaders... leave them alone. They aren't sc2 versions of oprah who has an opinion about anything and everything.
I do leave them. =\ I don't want to support them anymore.
------
I am sorry you live in my country. Looks like you are not having a lot of intellect or you may just be sick
Lololol, fat troll is so fat. Your post definitely shows a lot of intellect lol.
I dont hate them for switching, I'd watch SC2 all along only because there are these players - the legends. But:
1)I'm quite unsure that anything except this would make me watch SC2 or buy it (as i bought sc1 and wc3), cause BroodWar is perfect. It doesn't need updates or "glitter" (except, maybe, update in network protocols).
2)I don't want to support Boxer and Nada anymore since they just watch at SC:BW scene being backstabbed by ActiBlizz and do nothing. Boxer must be like protector god of SCBW in anyone's eyes, and if he does nothing - he loses his divine shine around him. Step by step but he does. Anyone like him would do.
3)I don't assume death of BroodWar, I want it to live on and on. If it does die it must be only by players' decision and not with "help" of Blizzard itself - only then you can certainly say SC2 is a better game. I'm certain that SC2 won't reach the level SC1 did reach (I might be, theoretically, wrong but I don't give it much probability).
4) If BroodWar's "corpse" is the price that we must pay for SC2 to reach higher status - I think it's unfair price and Blizzard is mean and full of lies. They go to the hell, then.
That's basically all.
----- edit: Thanks for the link to your blog, I'm reading it now. BTW, how can we really make our "support" go to be seen really by the players? I'd like to. For example to support Jaedong and tell him that he rocks and must become a Bonjwa. :D Please answer in comments to your post that you linked here )))
On November 01 2010 16:38 ffreakk wrote: Domovoi, why dont you start by figuring out how revenue is generated at all in SC:BW proscene, rather than randomly speculating that parties involve can earn big bucks etc.. Just a reminder, VoDs + Streams + live seatings are all free.. You ll be hard-pressed to find revenue anywhere at all outside of whatever they could charge the broadcasting stations.. However its rather easy to see that a fair bit of money is needed for organising all their tournaments.. Profit (aka what will go to their exec's salary) is revenue - cost.. So go figure..
@ mrdx
Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years.. How is it that in your rage you blame Kespa for everything and Blizz for none?
Blizz: + Contribute nothing to the scene (outside of selling said game) + Earned money (Korea bought half the number of copies of SC:BW aka best-selling RTS of all time) + Free advertisement for 10 years.. More advertisements to come if SC2 solidify its position as an e-Sport title.
Kespa: - Keep the scene running for 10 years.. Even when they are running a deficit (according to their reports).
Whos the one who should give in more?
That said, im biting my nails in hope for SC:BW to take it home. Go MBC!! *pray*
Also thanks for this post it nicely sums up what i keep saying but people just KEEP ignoring. Hopefully it can count somewhat in court.
1) Write cons for Blizzard 2) Write pros for Kespa 3) Make conclusions 4) .... 5) Win argument
On November 01 2010 16:38 ffreakk wrote: Domovoi, why dont you start by figuring out how revenue is generated at all in SC:BW proscene, rather than randomly speculating that parties involve can earn big bucks etc.. Just a reminder, VoDs + Streams + live seatings are all free.. You ll be hard-pressed to find revenue anywhere at all outside of whatever they could charge the broadcasting stations.. However its rather easy to see that a fair bit of money is needed for organising all their tournaments.. Profit (aka what will go to their exec's salary) is revenue - cost.. So go figure..
@ mrdx
Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years.. How is it that in your rage you blame Kespa for everything and Blizz for none?
Blizz: + Contribute nothing to the scene (outside of selling said game) + Earned money (Korea bought half the number of copies of SC:BW aka best-selling RTS of all time) + Free advertisement for 10 years.. More advertisements to come if SC2 solidify its position as an e-Sport title.
Kespa: - Keep the scene running for 10 years.. Even when they are running a deficit (according to their reports).
Whos the one who should give in more?
That said, im biting my nails in hope for SC:BW to take it home. Go MBC!! *pray*
Also thanks for this post it nicely sums up what i keep saying but people just KEEP ignoring. Hopefully it can count somewhat in court.
The awesome thing about the law is that none of this matters. All that matters is that blizzard owns the IP and that MBC and OGN are not respecting that. The law is not emotional nor philosophical, it is only meant to protect entities from other entities and place judgement accordingly. It is very true that SCBW would probably be no where as big today without mbc and ogn, but sc2 would still have come out. What if these companies try to organize tournaments for sc2? Blizzard is not out to make a profit or ruin scbw, they are there to make sure that they can invest in korean esports without being stabbed in the back by the government. This is more of a test for that than anything else.
The law isn't black and white and Blizzard cannot just make the rights they feel like as well you know. The Starcraft 2 EULA had to be changed in Korea because it was unreasonable, what makes you think the same will not be decided here? IP rights do not override everything. There is reasonable use and this certainly could be considered reasonable use especially if it benefited Blizzard, then how would it not be reasonble. Of course a Judge will take these elements into account when making a decision. Otherwise why would MBC and KeSPA even go to court if immediately it would be decided IP rights override everything and Judge favours Blizzard automatically?
It could be considered the entity is Korean eSports that needs to be protected here, and it could it be decided that for eSports to be legitimate there has to be some leeway regarding IP rights. We just don't know, thats why theres a court case. Unless you know of a court case that is even remotely like this, then this is unprecedented and we cannot assume an outcome at all based on IP rights. As people seem to keep ignoring MBC already paid Hanabit (who is i believe was the Korean wing of Blizzard you could say) many years ago for broadcasting rights anyway. So how will that play into things as well, are they just going to claim it was invalid or that they have the ability to re-decide rights many years later? Not even someone experienced with law can tell you what will happen here only make guesses.
On October 28 2010 06:22 parkin wrote: KeSPA did forbid bw teams and players to participate in gomtv bw tournaments. Thats hindering competion in my opinion.
Uhh... those are KeSPA's teams and players. GOM could have set up tournaments with their own players/teams (if they had any) or just an open tournament a la GSL where they have prelims open to the public. They wanted to use KeSPA teams and players, and some of the teams later pulled out in Season 3, there's nothing wrong with that.
And no KeSPA never did that. KeSPA only stated that they wouldn't get any KeSPA rank gains from participating in GOM since it wasn't a tournament ruled by KeSPA, which is pretty logical when you think about it. Hence the players placed GOM at the bottom of their prio list and as a result, the teams started telling their players not to waste time on that tournament since they had better stuff to practice for (PL/OSL/MSL).
Edit: GOM = individual STX Masters for the KeSPA teams. The main difference being it's played during OSL/MSL seasons.
At last someone with sense...gosh I wish more people knew about this instead of blatantly saying how KESPA stopped GOM leagues.
Did anyone even think about how GOM managed 3 tourneys if KESPA was fully against their league and using all their players?
[QUOTE]On November 01 2010 16:38 ffreakk wrote: Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years.. /QUOTE]
yea except for the actual game the entire scene is based around
On November 03 2010 05:17 _Quasar_ wrote: lol, but what KeSPA and players did is definitely more that's what the author of that post was pointing at...
I think u understimate the effort that u need to put into making a game.
Also he`s right no game = no eSport, this should be clear
On November 01 2010 16:38 ffreakk wrote: Funny, Blizzard is also singing " for the future of e-Sport " .. And unlike Kespa who actually set up a scene and got things going nicely for 10 years, all Blizz did was making games n selling them, contributing essentially nothing to said scene in said 10 years..
yea except for the actual game the entire scene is based around
Of course the game was good thats why they raked in big money for it.. Best-selling RTS of all time, isnt that the biggest reward any game developers hope for?.. Didnt they get 10 years worth of advertisement for it too?..
Many analogies has been made before so i wont attempt to make another (probably bad) one.. But Blizz, as the game developer, should stick to making games and getting paid.. While organisations like KespA should pay them for their games, and take charge of organising events.. Thats how it worked so far, and it worked out well..
I dont have a problem with Blizz joining in on e-Sports, but imo they should prove themselves first then hope to overtake others, rather than trying to kill off competitions first, and then hope that they can build something over their bloodied remnants.
On November 02 2010 15:41 Reason wrote: I can't help but feel that without the Koreans Starcraft Broodwar would never have become what it is....
They should really be thanking these people instead of suing them but I guess that's business?
Anyway Boxer and Nada go to hell lol? Get some therapy or an education because that's an absurd thing to say and you didn't sound like you were joking either.
Because they don't do anything now. I know who they are lol. I know they're legends. But why the hell dont they say anything to support BW. Not even a little. I guess they just took prize money and keep silent? If it's true, then i officially send them both far away and won't ever support anyone of them (although TBH i was going to watch Boxer/Nada, but that bullshit completely freed me from that intention).
You sound so much like a pathetic SC2 hater it's ridiculous. And KESPA took away their records anyway, so they're no longer BW legends, am I right?
On November 02 2010 15:41 Reason wrote: I can't help but feel that without the Koreans Starcraft Broodwar would never have become what it is....
They should really be thanking these people instead of suing them but I guess that's business?
Anyway Boxer and Nada go to hell lol? Get some therapy or an education because that's an absurd thing to say and you didn't sound like you were joking either.
Because they don't do anything now. I know who they are lol. I know they're legends. But why the hell dont they say anything to support BW. Not even a little. I guess they just took prize money and keep silent? If it's true, then i officially send them both far away and won't ever support anyone of them (although TBH i was going to watch Boxer/Nada, but that bullshit completely freed me from that intention).
You sound so much like a pathetic SC2 hater it's ridiculous. And KESPA took away their records anyway, so they're no longer BW legends, am I right?
On November 02 2010 15:41 Reason wrote: I can't help but feel that without the Koreans Starcraft Broodwar would never have become what it is....
They should really be thanking these people instead of suing them but I guess that's business?
Anyway Boxer and Nada go to hell lol? Get some therapy or an education because that's an absurd thing to say and you didn't sound like you were joking either.
Because they don't do anything now. I know who they are lol. I know they're legends. But why the hell dont they say anything to support BW. Not even a little. I guess they just took prize money and keep silent? If it's true, then i officially send them both far away and won't ever support anyone of them (although TBH i was going to watch Boxer/Nada, but that bullshit completely freed me from that intention).
You sound so much like a pathetic SC2 hater it's ridiculous. And KESPA took away their records anyway, so they're no longer BW legends, am I right?
Did kespa take boxers record away too?
Ofcourse you're not right. They will always be bw legends whatever kespa does. I don't mind the older pros who are no longer competitive in bw switching over to sc2, as long as the really good players stay in bw.
EPT
Just tried to understand the reasons of this suit.
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