EPTThe Sequel Dilemma - Page 4
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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unit
United States2621 Posts
[QUOTE]On September 21 2010 07:03 unit wrote: its due to the learning curve being so rediculously easy, July said sc2 is harder, thats because there are way more people at the higher levels and the game depends less on APM which July had relied on for a while (if you were around July IS mr.818 apm)[/QUOTE] Just to expand on that, you mean harder to be the best, right? [QUOTE]On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: [/QUOTE] yes that is exactly what i meant edit: how did i screw the quotes up tt | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On September 21 2010 07:03 unit wrote: its due to the learning curve being so rediculously easy, July said sc2 is harder, thats because there are way more people at the higher levels and the game depends less on APM which July had relied on for a while (if you were around July IS mr.818 apm) Once again, where are you inferring this from? Where does July state his reason for why SC2 is more difficult? | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise. I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought. I just love u guy, in any post you made here , you just treated people who disagree with you as an idiot, now tell me, please "enlight me" (Great C+ whenever i want) how is SC scene delaying SC2 rise? lets be honest and serious, if SC2 would be the great game right now, BW would be dead even in Korea and every sponsor will be in SC2, or you think that the people who run the big Korean companies are retards too?, fyi I have been in RTS games like 8 or 9 years and can tell you for sure that any expert has intelligent play and thought (superior than others), but i think you dont even know the meaning of those words, and finally I think in any community there are many good guys and few trolls, you are in the second group, guess why.... | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On September 21 2010 07:03 krndandaman wrote: There was an interview of Moon (a warcraft III progamer) who said it himself that warcraft III is much easier to 'master' than bw. also it's somewhat common knowledge among gamers that warcraft III has a pretty much solved + Show Spoiler [M word...] + metagame It's appealing because there is always that higher level you want to reach and even when you think you're the fucking best out of everyone around you, in the next neighborhood is another guy that can rape you 10-0 ez. That just boils my competitive blood. Some people hate steep learning curves, some people like it. It's all preference. Some might not even care about it at all! i didn't give a link. Moon may have said BW was harder to master than WC3, but if you look at WC3 pros coming to SC2 and BW pros coming to SC2, WC3 pros are doing just as well, if not better. This, to me, indicates that it obviously takes quite a lot of skill to reach the top of WC3. EDIT: What exactly does learning curve have to do with there always being a better player than you? That has nothing to do with a learning curve, only a skill ceiling. | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On September 21 2010 07:31 palexhur wrote: I just love u guy, in any post you made here , you just treated people who disagree with you as an idiot, now tell me, please "enlight me" (Great C+ whenever i want) how is SC scene delaying SC2 rise? lets be honest and serious, if SC2 would be the great game right now, BW would be dead even in Korea and every sponsor will be in SC2, or you think that the people who run the big Korean companies are retards too?, fyi I have been in RTS games like 8 or 9 years and can tell you for sure that any expert has intelligent play and thought (superior than others), but i think you dont even know the meaning of those words, and finally I think in any community there are many good guys and few trolls, you are in the second group, guess why.... I never even said that the SC scene was delaying SC2 rise, I said the best you people who want BW to remain dominant could hope for is SC lasting a little bit longer before SC2 becomes dominant. Learn how to read before calling me a troll, thanks. Also, regarding experts having intelligent play and thought: did I ever say they didn't? Where exactly did I say "Top BW players play unintelligently and rely on mechanics alone," or anything remotely similar? EDIT: Regarding treating people as idiots: I've only responded to people as if they were idiots after they proved that they were. On the other hand, I was told to go play FFT and flamed by about 10 people after my first post. If you expect me to respond to people civilly after they misrepresent my position and show a blatant inability to read, you're SOL. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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shadesofkarma
Romania708 Posts
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conTAgi0n
United States335 Posts
On September 20 2010 18:44 aimaimaim wrote: its hard not to bash the sc2 .. well not the game .. i just hate gretech and gretech represents sc2 so yeah, its hard .. It's interesting that you mention this. One of the things I almost included in my analysis of the cycle game communities go through is the evolution of attitudes towards the company that produced the original and the sequel, but I decided ultimately that it wasn't relevant enough. On September 20 2010 21:38 infinity2k9 wrote: http://sol.gfxile.net/ddhack/ This is supposed to fix it. I haven't looked into this since I don't have Windows 7, but if that is a good fix it's a pretty big deal. One thing I didn't mention in my post and in hindsight probably should have is how damaging it is to Brood War that it and Windows 7 don't get along. Those kinds of mundane obstacles to playing the game can make all the difference in the world. On September 20 2010 23:07 shurgen wrote: This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing. I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game? Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings. You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close. Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft. =(. It isn't a question of whether new players should or shouldn't be willing to slog through the iCCup experience. The fact is that iCCup is rougher than it needs to be, and few new players will be that persevering. If something doesn't change to make it easier for them, it will significantly reduce the number that actually stick with it. On September 21 2010 00:11 tree.hugger wrote: I argued before in the Sc2 forum that the killing of BW would mean the death of Sc2 as well, and that it would be in Blizzard's best interest to promote both. I think you've stated very well one of the key points of that argument. If video games are to be taken seriously as actual esports, and take hold in the general public, than they must not be seen as five-ten year fads that will burn out with the introduction of a sequel. Well put. I actually remember seeing that post of yours and thought it was very well reasoned and written. Undoubtedly it influenced some of the thought that went into this post. For anyone curious this is the post in question: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150063 On September 21 2010 03:33 sc1saus wrote: I dunno really, your writeup is very good but honestly most examples given were community-feelings. But here we are dealing with a game wich has gone beyond "game". And thus this is the first time a company is trying to actively kill it's own old game. I like your response because I really am interested in starting a dialogue. Most of my examples are indeed community feelings as you put it, but the communities are the people who actually play the game, so I think trends within the community are highly relevant. As for Blizzard trying to kill Brood War, the only part of the equation I see this affecting much is the existence of Proleague and the amount of sponsorship for StarCraft 2, unless they start paying people to stop playing Brood War casually. On September 21 2010 04:12 ziGG wrote: That being said from what I understand you are pretty off on the halo transition. Halo 1 was (still is?) Condsiderd the best mutiplayer incarnation of the series. When halo 2 came out most high level players didn't like it nearly as much. But the main league MLG was getting very little attendance. They switch to halo2. And exploded with growth despite the "top tier" players disliking it. The reason I added qualifiers there is that I am not super familiar with the competitive Halo scene, and I might not have represented it totally accurately. In my defense, I did not mean to suggest that there was no push back from one game to the next, but that overall the community transitioned fairly quickly and did not leave behind much following to speak of in Halo 1 or Halo 2. I probably did not make this clear enough in the OP. As for you, PJA, you are the main reason I decided to respond at all on this thread. On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise. I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought. This was your first post in the thread. No one posted anything at all bashing SC2 prior to this post. This post was clearly intended to be highly inflammatory, and frankly started steering the discussion into BW vs SC2 almost immediately, which is just about the last direction I wanted this thread to go in. The other ten posts you made in this thread (yes, I counted) are all in the same vein. I would just ask that you bite your tongue on this thread and find a different place to argue about the merits of SC2 over BW. The first sentence of your post is arguably on topic, but is a ridiculous oversimplification of a very nuanced situation which I attempted to dissect more carefully in the OP. The only point you make regarding BW that I want to address, since I see it a lot, is this: On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not. Of course no one would want to play that harder version of Brood War, but nor would anyone want to play a StarCraft 3 where you just told the game what you wanted to do and the AI took care of the micro and macro for you. Actual Brood War and StarCraft 2 do not lie on the same point on the spectrum, but both are a long ways away from either extreme as well. Where on the spectrum is best is purely a matter of preference, a fact that seems to escape too many on both sides of the argument. Still I would thank you AJP, for providing a great example of this part of my post: On September 20 2010 10:47 conTAgi0n wrote: [Fans of the sequel] are not predisposed to resent the original, but when it seems to hamper the growth of their game, they often see it as having overstayed its welcome. :-P | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
Amazing post, great read. | ||
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ZeaL.
United States5955 Posts
On September 21 2010 03:07 slappy wrote: i think the only reason people have anything against sc2 is that it is s precursser to all of these recent negative events in the BW scene. At least, that's how I feel. I really just don't want to see the BW scene fall apart because I have followed it for so long. That is completely understandable, I don't want the bw scene to fall apart either and its easy to just lay the blame at blizzard and sc2's hands but doing that is very counterproductive. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of people on this site that either used to watch bw and play sc2 now or came here because of sc2's release. This is a pretty large goldmine of people who are interested in competitive RTS and potential bw fans. When these people venture into bw general and just see a bunch of "sc2 is ez only noobs play sc2" how do you think that makes them feel? As far as the other points in the OP are concerned, I don't think there will ever be a revival of foreign bw. iCCup is brutal to start with and battle.net is... well battle.net. Most beginners won't even consider a 10 year old game that only seasoned veterans play with such a high learning curve unless they have a friend who persuades them. Why play sc:bw with its often retarded AI and high mechanical requirements against really good people when you can play sc2 with its easier introduction and play against people around your skill level? It ain't happening. The most we can hope for is that the kespa manages to let the starleagues continue. | ||
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soujiro_
Uruguay5195 Posts
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Hikko
United States1126 Posts
From the OP: 3) Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing StarCraft 2 players are probably actually the people most likely to pick up Brood War, given the connections and similarities StarCraft 2 shares with the original. If StarCraft 2 players perceive the Brood War community as antagonistic towards their game, they will lose a lot of their curiosity about the original. I think most Brood War players on teamliquid.net have been fairly well behaved, but there is still room for improvement on this point. This is a very important point from the OP. Being trolled because I like Starcraft 2 doesn't make me want to go back to the Brood War community. In fact, it almost makes me glad that I'm past it and into the new game. I watch mind boggling amounts of Jon747's channel (VioletAK commentaries are a sweet, tasty bonus!), and I love to watch Brood War. But after experiencing Starcraft 2, Brood War just isn't as much fun any more. I still play it when I can't play Starcraft 2 (when I have to wait for a ride after college classes, when Battle.net 2.0 is down, etc.), but the game just isn't as much fun as the sequel. There isn't a single thing that is fun about managing the stupid Dragoon AI. The "skill" involved does nothing for me because I don't play games to stroke my e-peen. I play to have fun. Every time I think about going and playing some Brood War when I have the option between the two games, I often go back and read the Brood War topics on TL. Obviously I check out the Nada's Body thread, and then the sandpit that is the GomTV vs KeSPA topics. While I find that I do enjoy the healthy parts of the debate between GomTV vs KeSPA, 3 out of 4 posts in those threads boil down to BW vs SC2. 9 out of 10 of these BW vs SC2 posts are BW exclusive players that pester SC2 players because they "have no skill," they "took the easy way out," they "attack move and watch with their easy macro," and the list goes on. I think that it is important to remember just how many people play SC2. Does everyone currently active on Team Liquid' (the team, not the website that we are a part of) lack skill because they switched to SC2? Are all the other foreigners who switched over (read: everyone that was an active, pro-level BW foreigner) just looking for an easy way out? Does more money from tournaments mean that Starcraft 2 is a phase that will soon pass, only to be surpassed by Brood War soon after? The point I'm trying to make is that most of these posts hailing Brood War and demeaning Starcraft 2 fail to recognize everyone in the world except some Koreans in select PC cafes and on televised OSL/MSL/PL matches. The posters proclaiming their superiority because they play Brood War are no-names just like everyone else, and the vast majority are looking to stroke their e-penises because they don't want to own up to the fact that they are trying to prove something to someone, yet that someone isn't there. Antagonizing me the player that enjoys another game yet enjoys both the BW and SC2 scene doesn't encourage me to come back, it just makes me wish I could delete them from the forum so that I could just read intelligent discussions in peace. Play nice :D EDIT: after reading over this there's a lot of mish mash mixed all together, but hopefully I said something sensible >.> I need to get some sleep. I'll revise this in the morning! | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On September 21 2010 13:24 Hikko wrote: The point I'm trying to make is that most of these posts hailing Brood War and demeaning Starcraft 2 fail to recognize everyone in the world except some Koreans in select PC cafes and on televised OSL/MSL/PL matches. The posters proclaiming their superiority because they play Brood War are no-names just like everyone else, and the vast majority are looking to stroke their e-penises because they don't want to own up to the fact that they are trying to prove something to someone, yet that someone isn't there. No sir. The reason I bash SC2 is because it's an inferior game in my eyes intruding upon the establishments of my favorite game. I don't need to prove anything to you; if you play SC2, I don't care as long as you keep to yourself(or be nice about it). Or do you not find the legal threats to BW a reason for people to resent SC2? I'm not sure if this was poorly worded or just inflammatory, but honestly, a few less insults would be nice. I've flamed SC2 pretty hard before, but I realized that trying to sink the other isn't going to help anyone. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
and regarding SC2 as an esport .. they stil dont have good players worthy to be seen on TV .. i dont like watching amateures (most of them are) duke it out. its a sight for sore eyes. also regarding SC2 being easy or hard .. just put it this way .. Nada and July, regardless of what they said, knows they can't be top dogs in BW. the skill cap increased so much that their current skill aren't up to it. so they changed to SC2 .. the game isn't hard nor easy .. the players are the ones that makes the game hard. Micro, Macro, Star Sense, etc., these are the factors that players must focus on to be on top, regardless if its BW or SC2 .. its just that in BW, the skill cap is just so high, players who want to be on top are discouraged because they can't achieve it. | ||
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Trap
United States395 Posts
But all this is besides the point, because there isn't going to be any mass return of players to BW. The ICCUP administration doesn't cater to newcomers. Shiny graphics, more accessible controls, name what you will, the vast majority of people aren't going to spend the time to appreciate the nuances of BW. At this point I'm sick of the same debate showing up everywhere and am ready to let BW go the way of the dinosaur. | ||
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Hikko
United States1126 Posts
On September 21 2010 14:28 aimaimaim wrote: and regarding SC2 as an esport .. they stil dont have good players worthy to be seen on TV .. i dont like watching amateures (most of them are) duke it out. its a sight for sore eyes. http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1114 Watch game 1 and cry tears of joy and experience warm feelings of amazement. This is a comeback if there was ever one. It's worth the effort to register for Gom's website. | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On September 21 2010 14:55 Trap wrote:But all this is besides the point, because there isn't going to be any mass return of players to BW. The ICCUP administration doesn't cater to newcomers. Shiny graphics, more accessible controls, name what you will, the vast majority of people aren't going to spend the time to appreciate the nuances of BW. At this point I'm sick of the same debate showing up everywhere and am ready to let BW go the way of the dinosaur. If that was the case, why wouldn't it have died years ago to 'shinier games with more accessible controls?' Plenty of those were released in the past 12 years. The proscene keeps BW alive. | ||
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KimchiFriedRice
Canada237 Posts
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