Videogames have inspired followings of hardcore players since their earliest history. With the gaming industry having overtaken Hollywood years ago in profits, it was inevitable, really, that these serious competitive communities would reach greater and greater proportions. For the players involved, who devote their time and passion to the game, the first ever-looming question is how big can it get? The second big question is how long can it last? Brood War has succeeded beyond everyone’s wildest dreams up to now on both counts. While it has looked for a while as though Brood War is not likely to expand beyond its niche in Korea, the pro-scene that has developed there is already an unprecedented achievement. Its second colossal triumph was to transcend the traditional shelf life of a computer game. Games have advanced rapidly with technology and older games are usually left behind by the mainstream, even if a few nostalgic twenty-somethings who grew up with a NES in the family room still play the oldies. It is safe to say that this cycle is probably not conducive for competitive videogames realizing their full potential as eSports, so Brood War’s seeming immortality has been something of a breakthrough.
However, as many hurdles as Brood War has cleared on its way towards proving that videogames aren’t necessarily doomed to eventual obsolescence, one of the greatest obstacles a game can face seems more and more likely by the day to spell the end for the twelve year old classic. The Brood War community is far from the first competitive gaming community to be faced with the challenges of a sequel. Sequels are not necessarily a bad thing or even harmful to the original community, but they at a minimum mark a profound crossroads. While every community and game is different, I think there is a general pattern that they go through with the introduction of a sequel.
Phase 0: Speculation Prior to the announcement of the sequel, there is speculation about the possibility in every community once the original game has been out long enough. How likely people judge a sequel to be is case dependent. For the most part everyone likes the idea of a sequel. A few people will suggest that the original is so good a sequel isn’t really necessary and might not be able to live up to the original.
Phase 1: Announcement The announcement of a sequel seems, again almost universally, to be cause for enormous excitement in the community. Even the people who said they wouldn’t care about a sequel that much get caught up in the fervor. This is probably the community’s most optimistic phase. The community usually experiences modest to significant growth as people start getting into the original in anticipation of the sequel, adding to the sense of optimism and excitement for what the future holds.
Phase 2: Details As the sequel draws nearer, excitement, optimism, and growth in the original community continue to increase. Along the way, details about the sequel are released to the general public. The community avidly analyzes and discusses these details to death, and inevitably at least some among them object to or fret about some of the newly announced additions to game play. The extent of the concerns again varies case by case, but what tends to be most controversial is not the new characters or units or spells released but what a casual gamer would probably find the least interesting – changes to the more fundamental mechanics, or anything that impacts the way the game works on a fundamental level. I would not call most communities anywhere near divided at this stage, but the first real voices of concern are heard as soon as the community gets a more concrete image of what the sequel will mean. All these trends grow stronger and stronger until they culminate in…
Phase 3: Release/Open Beta This phase begins when the game becomes widely playable, which for StarCraft 2 really started with beta testing. The community experiences a huge influx of new members flocking to the new game, which in many cases outnumber the fans of the original title. Essentially the original community plays host to a new, fledgling community of new fans from the sequel. A large portion of the original community usually also makes the switch for various reasons. The oldest members of the community have often been into the original game for so long that they are ready to move on to something fresh and new. Most notably the highest profile figures in the original community, particularly the star players, tend to make the switch. The top players often have a lot more at stake than a hobby and accordingly are quick to jump to whichever game seems to offer greater opportunity and a brighter future. Given that by this point the sequel has more following both in the diehard community and in the mainstream gaming community, this usually means switching games.
Not everyone jumps ship, though. Things become especially case dependent at this point, but where the sequel divides the community, this is the stage by which fans of the original have realized that the sequel is a fundamentally different game. Unsurprisingly, they tend to prefer the game that originally got them involved in the community, and the mechanics and unique feel of the original, to a new game with the original game’s name in the title. This in combination with the fact they naturally feel threatened by the sequel starting to eclipse the original leads to some degree of bitterness and hostility towards the sequel.
Fans of the sequel, by contrast, are much less invested in the original game. They quite like their new game for its own merits, and naturally take less than kindly to the original game’s proponents talking down the new game as being inferior. Sadly this unnecessarily turns off these fans to the original game when some might have naturally taken an interest in it after falling in love with the sequel. They are not predisposed to resent the original, but when it seems to hamper the growth of their game, they often see it as having overstayed its welcome.
Phase 4: Twilight or Revival As time goes on and the sequel ceases to be brand new, there are two possible fates in store for the original game. The first is that the competitive scene for the original loses critical mass and burns out. Because the mainstream is constantly focused on the new and because graphics and controls always age, the flow of fresh blood into communities for older games slows down considerably. Sequels exacerbate this by overshadowing the original and drawing away many potential new players from the original. As the original game loses too many top players, community regulars, and potential new players, the remaining players will be forced to recognize that the scene has no future and will either switch themselves or let go and move on entirely. Significantly, this can happen or not happen regardless of whether the sequel thrives or fails.
The second fate that might await the original title is a revival of sorts. This might not fully kick in for a year or more after the sequel’s release, or it might start almost immediately. For this to happen the better part of the original game’s community must remain intact. New players coming to the game, new tournaments and events being held, and the opinions and decisions of the more influential members of the original community are of particular importance here. This scenario is more directly related to the nature of the sequel than the first scenario. If the competitive community for the sequel is hitting serious stumbling blocks, if the core game play elements are sufficiently different, or if the objections to the sequel and preference for the original are widespread enough, then a revival becomes more likely. Should a game manage a successful and sustainable revival and recovery, the survival of the sequel actually becomes very beneficial to it, as players attracted to the sequel who then take an interest in the original becomes a meaningful avenue for bringing new members into the community.
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All of these phases look different for every game, but 4 and 5 in particular vary a lot. To the best of my knowledge, competitive Halo transitioned very smoothly from Halo 1 to Halo 2 and finally to Halo 3. Unless I am severely misinformed, no one tried to stick with playing Halo 1 or 2 competitively. I would attribute this to the fact that the core game play was very similar from one to the next. By contrast, the divide between Counter Strike 1.6 and Counter Strike: Source is notorious for exemplifying how ugly the rift in the community can look in phase 3. Super Smash Bros Melee and Super Smash Bros Brawl provide a very textbook example in which phase 4 was a revival, though I don’t know that Melee has recovered to its pre-Brawl height.
So what does this all mean for Brood War? As this outline should have made clear, this progression is as much about the communities involved as it is about the games themselves, and in Brood War there are two main communities worth talking about.
The Foreigner Community The first of these is foreign Brood War, the community that teamliquid.net represents. This community fits into the process I have outlined much more neatly than the Korean community, which has the pro-scene to complicate things. Here we are in phase 3 of the process; will phase 4 be the twilight or the revival of competitive Brood War? In my analysis a successful revival requires 3 things: new members, new events and tournaments, and vocal and influential proponents from within the community. So first off, can Brood War attract any new members outside of Korea? My impression is that most of the new people who start playing Brood War competitively played the game before, back in its prime. The younger generation of gamers will probably never have played the original, and while I personally like the look of the game and am accustomed to its UI, it is doubtful whether people who didn’t grow up with the graphics and UI of Brood War will have the patience for a 2D game with no MBS or automine. In the sequel dilemma, foreign Brood War suffered a huge body blow in that the draw on top players and figures in the community to StarCraft 2 was especially powerful, since non-Koreans had so little hope of penetrating the true upper ranks of Brood War in South Korea. With few exceptions all the most notable foreign players and commentators made the switch. While there are many well known and loved forum members who have stuck staunchly to Brood War, the teamliquid website itself has moved on to StarCraft 2 and is very unlikely to sponsor any new Brood War-based events or tournaments. Overall a rather grim prognosis. It is very possible that as StarCraft 2 loses its novelty, many of the players who originally made the switch find the sequel less able to sustain their interest and switch back, creating renewed momentum for Brood War. Foreign Brood War’s real lifeline, however, what has really kept it alive over the years, is the Korean pro-scene.
The South Korean Community The impact of StarCraft 2 on the South Korean Brood War scene is still difficult to judge. The pro-scene and the Korean Brood War community are so interdependent that if one dies the other will go with it. So far most accounts suggest that StarCraft 2 has not been particularly successful in South Korea so far. There are at least rumors that it is starting to catch on, though many think that it has too much going against it to make a real impact. The existence of the pro-scene is threatened now too, but the real threat is not old favorites who can’t hack it in Brood War anymore leaving for StarCraft 2, but the legal threat that the Proleague, MSL, and OSL will not be allowed to continue. South Korean Brood War is more stable and healthy than foreign Brood War, and probably has far less to fear from a natural death for the time being than from Gretech’s legal challenge.
~
Whether Proleague and with it the pro-scene live on for the time being will come down to the lawyers and judges rather than the fans. The future of South Korean Brood War looks safe in the short term and uncertain in the long term. The future of foreign Brood War looks moribund in the short term and dead in the long term. What factors might make a revival of Brood War outside of Korea more likely? I can think of three things that the remaining Brood War players could do to encourage more people to take it up, though none of these measures would ensure its survival by any stretch of the imagination.
1) Shameless promotion Word of mouth can be a surprisingly powerful influence, and if you never played Brood War back in the day, this is one of the more likely ways you might start playing it now. This is made more difficult by the fact that, as discussed before, newer players might not initially show much patience for Brood War if they started with StarCraft 2 or some other newer title. This does not necessarily mean that they will never be able to appreciate the game, but it does mean there will be an adjustment period. Brood War graphics look old, but not bad (at least in my opinion), and the action is exciting and easy to discern. My piece of anecdotal evidence is that two of my flat mates, both of whom play StarCraft 2 at a lot at a very casual level (probably about gold league 1v1), have confessed they don’t think they could go back to Brood War anymore after playing with StarCraft 2 graphics. However, these same two guys woke up early with me to watch the OSL finals last Saturday and adjusted to the older graphics within a game or two. The UI will be the bigger adjustment for new players. I would point out that you do not actually have to fight the UI in Brood War as is sometimes claimed. Fighting the UI suggests that it actively obstructs you from doing what you want. No one wants to have to fight the UI; that would be pointless and frustrating. The reality is that the UI simply does much less for you, though the AI admittedly requires more babysitting than it should in a few situations such as dragoons passing through choke points.
2) Make Brood War more welcoming to beginners This change I personally think is highly unlikely, but it is probably the most important one. I don’t think I will shock anyone here by pointing out that iCCup is nothing short of a gauntlet for would-be new Brood War players. A part of this is that the skill level starts so high (plus all the smurfs), but I think a bigger part of this is how hard it is to even find a game. iCCup makes it hard to host games for some reason, and you can count on a minimum of a 5-10 minute wait before you actually get one. iCCup has been around for a while, and it is probably unlikely that they are going to radically reform in this department. Could community measures to create a more welcoming way for new players to get into the game help? Maybe, but I don't know what exactly these would include.
3) Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing StarCraft 2 players are probably actually the people most likely to pick up Brood War, given the connections and similarities StarCraft 2 shares with the original. If StarCraft 2 players perceive the Brood War community as antagonistic towards their game, they will lose a lot of their curiosity about the original. I think most Brood War players on teamliquid.net have been fairly well behaved, but there is still room for improvement on this point.
~
Postscript/tl;dr: There has been a lot of talk about the death of Brood War, the uncertain future of StarCraft 2, BW vets vs SC2 newcomers, etc etc etc ad nauseum. My intention with this thread was to place the situation in the context of a recognizable pattern that many communities have gone through, and to try to spark some more rigorous and productive discussion on whether Brood War has any future and what can or should be done to revitalize it outside of Korea. The fate of StarCraft 2, while related, is a separate topic, which I have not really touched upon in this post. You might also notice that while I reach a lot of conclusions and generalizations, I don’t list any sources. These are all my own observations and analyses, and I don’t claim any of them to be gospel truth.
Wow. Well written, and extremely relevant. I found myself nodding my head at a lot of points, it feels like you took a bunch of thoughts and brought them together into a really great read. Thanks for writing it!
its hard not to bash the sc2 .. well not the game .. i just hate gretech and gretech represents sc2 so yeah, its hard ..
also regarding the UI: im a viewer not a player .. play games here and there and even if you say dont fight the UI, its difficult not to. starting to play this hard game(BW) requires perseverance that you rarely see in new SC2 players. maybe its just me though ..
Excellent read on how games evolve and transition from one game to another. What we should be doing is separating the "players" in what direction the game goes from that of the game itself.
BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
its like if snooker or pool only required you to aim and judge the amount of strength correctly without actually having to actually do it yourself... it would be like playing those online pool games, and obviously waaaaaaaay less impressive.
and also some of us have watched bw forEVER. not hard to understand why we'd want it to stay alive.
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
You think SC2 is not going to be decided by superior mechanics? In a real time strategy game the person who can do the most effective actions in real time is going to win. You might want to play a turn based game if you don't want that. As soon as the first period of weird gimmick strategies is over and builds are figured out, it's going to be just as mechanics based as BW. The only difference is that BW has a much higher skill cap which will probably make it better as a spectator game anyway.
Besides you're not even right in the first place. Flash is the top BW player if you hadn't noticed, and he isn't even known for his APM.
I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*)
Thank you, OP, for an intelligent post about both BW and SC2 without saying SC2 is the devil and should die in a fire. I pretty much only had time to skim most of it, but I hope to come back later to more thoroughly read and comment.
Amazing post, many people should seriously read it.
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
The opposite can simply not happen in any real-time game, ever, unless it's so slow that everyone can have 100% perfect mechanics all the time.
I have to put a point of view from a former SC:BW fan to now a SC2 fanboy (i don't even play the game yet, bad PC).
So in preparation for my new rig i tried to restart playing SC:BW on iccup. First my laptop crashes (win7 issue) and that pisses me off. But ok, i start it up in windowed mode and host a game. The fact that people leave the game because i want to play random is just bad (in sc2, you don't get to pick, and i think that is for the best). And after my game the guy says he's sad coz he lost to a mentally disabled person doesn't make you wanna host an another game.
That said, the chance of resurrection in the foreign community is very bad to none. I would contribute the fact of success of Counter-Strike 1.6 in the very poor preparation of CS:S, same as happened in Unreal Tournament 3, as the game was so bad nobody even bought it.
Enough to say, i installed Wc3 and started playing single player.
I'm one of the new people who come to this site for StarCraft 2 and become intrigued by BroodWar scene. BW has really a lot of rich history and it's fun getting to know the root of StarCraft. And I love Flash and Jaedong ^^. I really wish the community is not divided into two, but I guess it can't be helped.
Being a person that plays SC2 daily but still stayed up for the last OSL/MSL finals I have to say that "Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing" could use a lot more work. On a lot of boards, especially BW general, anytime SC2 comes up in a discussion someone just has to say "fuck sc2" or some retarded thing like that. That hostility would probably discourage newer sc2 players or even older bw players that play sc2 from getting involved or contributing. When someone posts something uninformed about the bw proscene someone just HAS to go and point out that their date joined is post 2009 and say something like "lol newbs should stfu before they post anything". How is the scene supposed to grow when the people who comprise the scene are elitist dicks that shut off their community from newbies? I noticed the mods have become a lot more aggressive with respect to banning flagrant sc2 flaming but it still pops up quite frequently.
On September 20 2010 22:02 groms wrote: I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*)
This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing.
I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game?
Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings.
You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close.
Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft.
On September 20 2010 22:02 groms wrote: I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*)
This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing.
I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game?
Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings.
You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close.
Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft.
=(.
I'm sorry I didn't enjoy it either.
I wouldn't call myself a "casual gamer" though. I played wc3 for like 7 years, Ladder/DotA. I was a CS player as well for about 6 years(played in cal b4 it got corrupt). I was just presenting my dilemma and saying I thought it was harder for people who join games after they are established(in my case 12 years later) b/c people have been playing for years before you that gap is often hard to close.
Since I started playing SC2 when it came out in beta I don't feel like I'm at as big of a disadvantage compared to BW players(even though I am still b/c my macro isn't as polished).
I argued before in the Sc2 forum that the killing of BW would mean the death of Sc2 as well, and that it would be in Blizzard's best interest to promote both. I think you've stated very well one of the key points of that argument.
If video games are to be taken seriously as actual esports, and take hold in the general public, than they must not be seen as five-ten year fads that will burn out with the introduction of a sequel.
all i have to say that in the gsl only the EXBW PLAYERS are good , and are roadkilling everyone else, so if you where good at bw u will at sc2 also( cause sc2 it's a lot more easy , it's for ppl with one hand ) , but bw is much more then sc2 , in every aspect u can think , even if i'm not that good at bw i stay with it, and about iccup it's not right u need 5-10 minutes for a game , i can find at any time a game in 1,2 minutes
There is no need to argue against the morons who wish BW die. It is just obvious that they post about it in every threads to inject that idea to people's heads so that even the hardcore BW fans become skeptical and because of that BW will die. They are playing the goddamn mind game and lot of people are falling for it.
The best response to those silly stupid posts is not logic, but just hopes. Don't bash SC2 because it just shows that they succeeded to make you frustrated. They want to sway your mind from BW, the best way to counter it is to show that such task is not possible.
You just have to show them that you believe in BW as much as the pope believes in god, post that raises people's hope and belief in BW is more important than countless arguments to prove the BW haters wrong. IMO, posts like these are much more effective than countering their arguments :
"BW cannot die, it has public support and government support, whoever want BW dead sucks" "People retire here and there every years, everything is just normal, waiting for the next Proleague" "BW is too big it cannot die, all the effort to make it die is just a waste" "The last events did 0.001 damage to BW, it still has 999.999 HP, PL/OSL/MSL continue as always, everything is normal, there is no need to worry about it". "BW dying is just a rumor spread by BW haters who want it dead, BW is as strong as ever ! It will deliver more and more exciting games next season, long live BW !!!"
If we, as BW fans, show absolute belief in BW, BW haters will just realize that their plan to destroy BW popularity sucks, and they will eventually stop posting about BW's death, everything will be back to normal. And to those that are trying to kill BW by making those posts, you suck.
On September 21 2010 00:11 tree.hugger wrote: I argued before in the Sc2 forum that the killing of BW would mean the death of Sc2 as well
I'd prob agree. Tho in the end, both games will have made the company millions and so be it. And I don't think BWar has brought that much money in these past few years other than the Walmart shopper buying BChest or the few new recruits? The introduction of "no-cd" patch 1.15.2 however, and the ease of e-installations, surely had to see substantial gains (timing of a sequel announcement didn't hurt either).
WoW (never played) on the other hand is from what I've read, the goose that lays golden eggs. SC2 is a chance to make some money for sure, but video games and blockbuster movies seem to have merged as one these days. The marketing sure is identical: Advertise the crap out of it to make millions on release, sell a sequel and then reap in the royalties (shelf-life age). Maybe the future holds some Science Fiction based MMORG for Starcraft and another big cash cow haha!
Whatever the case, SCBWar has already reached CULT status years ago. Once you reach cult status, the game will ALWAYS be here with some sort of pulse. PPl are still religiously going to the Rocky Horror picture show as well as buying Caddyshack as an example. Strange analogy.. sorry, but not too far off.
Myself, I just hope to continue to see 3rd party software such as BWChart, ChaosLauncher, BWAPI, and even things like resolution expander or simple modding tools like Firegraft continue to be developed. SCraft would seem to benefit from some minor tweaks/fixes without building a "new" game. The ultimate of course would be a gosu add-on/mod that enhanced the Scraft experience such as was the case with CounterStrike etc. How sweet would that be?
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
The opposite can simply not happen in any real-time game, ever, unless it's so slow that everyone can have 100% perfect mechanics all the time.
Very bad argument there sir.
And BW ain't dead until PL/OSL/MSL are cancelled.
well basicly they are all canceld beside the OSL... but they still continue
This is really good post with some smart points made. All i can say is my opinion and it is basically about three things (money, money, money):
1 - Everything that makes SC2 very succesful is money. If there were still some money involved in tournaments in BW, it would definately had no problem surviving. Every tournament became SC2 oriented, because it has bigger hype and more people interested in it, especially young people - so it makes sense to throw tournaments oriented to it.
2 - BW is just too hard and frustrating to play competitively, so people look for something easier with ultimate goal of making money (speaking about bw foreign elite). When BW elite players left for SC2, the whole community got hit hard.
3 - Blizzard wants to make money and does everything to make as much as possible, even if it means killing korean BW pro-scene.
I wish that both games could co-exist with great communities involved together with money tournaments thrown in both, not having to bash at each other. Still i am sad that Sc2 has taken away foreign BW tournaments. Thinking about TSL1,2 and the great moments we all had with it not needing anything like the sequel. Well money moves the world ...
Thank you for doing this so I can just start referring people who have no idea what they're talking about instead of having to type up like 2 pages every time one pops up.
In response to people saying they wouldn't try iCCup against because of difficulty, it looks like most of the low players left and it ended up being the majority of the population. The remaining 2-3k people that cycle being online there are mostly in the Cs nowadays. Its very difficult to gauge where you actually are because now the new "D+" means you know how to micro/macro, BO, avoid harass, and you're starting to understand how to control the flow of the game. The old D/D+ was more about learning what a BO was and how to follow it. That description of the new D+ would've fit the old C-/C/C+ range.
I could see how this extreme difficulty curve can be discouraging, but then why try to help SC2 people try SCBW if they're just going to go "well that's retarded-hard" and quit after 3 games?
Of course that people will prefer "the easier game" rather than "the harder game". Its just how we men are. It is unrealistic to expect that anyone will start playing bw instead of SC2. SC2 may be much worse from BW as a rts game, but it is extremely fun to play. My only hope lies in Korea, where bw is not just a pc game.
On September 20 2010 22:38 ZeaL. wrote: Being a person that plays SC2 daily but still stayed up for the last OSL/MSL finals I have to say that "Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing" could use a lot more work. On a lot of boards, especially BW general, anytime SC2 comes up in a discussion someone just has to say "fuck sc2" or some retarded thing like that. That hostility would probably discourage newer sc2 players or even older bw players that play sc2 from getting involved or contributing. When someone posts something uninformed about the bw proscene someone just HAS to go and point out that their date joined is post 2009 and say something like "lol newbs should stfu before they post anything". How is the scene supposed to grow when the people who comprise the scene are elitist dicks that shut off their community from newbies? I noticed the mods have become a lot more aggressive with respect to banning flagrant sc2 flaming but it still pops up quite frequently.
i think the only reason people have anything against sc2 is that it is s precursser to all of these recent negative events in the BW scene. At least, that's how I feel. I really just don't want to see the BW scene fall apart because I have followed it for so long.
I dunno really, your writeup is very good but honestly most examples given were community-feelings. But here we are dealing with a game wich has gone beyond "game". And thus this is the first time a company is trying to actively kill it's own old game.
Besides that most games don't have sequels that come out +10 years later. Going from Halo1, 2 to 3 was much a much less shocking change than from BW to SC2.
Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
On September 21 2010 02:57 Diminotoor wrote: Thank you for doing this so I can just start referring people who have no idea what they're talking about instead of having to type up like 2 pages every time one pops up.
In response to people saying they wouldn't try iCCup against because of difficulty, it looks like most of the low players left and it ended up being the majority of the population. The remaining 2-3k people that cycle being online there are mostly in the Cs nowadays. Its very difficult to gauge where you actually are because now the new "D+" means you know how to micro/macro, BO, avoid harass, and you're starting to understand how to control the flow of the game. The old D/D+ was more about learning what a BO was and how to follow it. That description of the new D+ would've fit the old C-/C/C+ range.
I could see how this extreme difficulty curve can be discouraging, but then why try to help SC2 people try SCBW if they're just going to go "well that's retarded-hard" and quit after 3 games?
I'd love to listen to the "logic" posted in this thread when people start having a clue. Getting to D+ doesn't mean you know anything at all. I've gotten to C+ within 2 weeks every time I come back and play BW after taking year long breaks, and I don't know any modern build orders (read: I haven't read about build orders/watched pro-BW games since yellow vs boxer). I also don't understand timing attack in BW or any of the other shit you talk about. All you need to reach C+ is some half-decent macro with zerg and know how many sunkens to make to not die if T is one basing, and know when to switch from muta to hydra against P who goes sair->DT. If that's all you know, and you can dodge storms and flank, you'll get to C+.
Hell, I got to D+ between phase 1 and phase 2 of beta with P, which I played in SC2, but haven't played since I was playing hunters 3v3s in toyland in '02. I'd love to see someone who actually has skill at both BW and SC2 arguing with me, or even at least someone who has skill at BW.
1st off let me say a what a great read. I come mostly from a cs 1.6 background and remember going thru these stages step by step with css.
That being said from what I understand you are pretty off on the halo transition. Halo 1 was (still is?) Condsiderd the best mutiplayer incarnation of the series. When halo 2 came out most high level players didn't like it nearly as much. But the main league MLG was getting very little attendance. They switch to halo2. And exploded with growth despite the "top tier" players disliking it.
This is where money comes in. Even tho they enjoyed playing halo1 more there was no money to be had. Apernrtly making a living from a video game matter more then playing a game they enjoyed more.
Idk if this was happen with Starcraft or not. But GSL is sure trying to take it i'n that direction. For better or worse
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that. But I do not think people play sc2 because it's easier.
I feel like you missed the entire point of my post. Sure, BW is "harder" in the sense that it's harder to a-move 100 supply in BW than in SC2, and in the sense that dragoons are mind-bogglingly retarded compared to stalkers. However, BW players want to take this fact and say that BW therefor requires more skill to compete at the top level, or that players will reach some skill ceiling in SC2.
There is no reason to believe a priori that the latter is true, and I think all of the top foreigners from BW who play SC2 believe that it is false; that no one will ever reach the skill ceiling in SC2.
As for the former, it is obviously true at the moment, but that's because nobody has spent 5 years playing the game, perfectly their build orders, timings, mechanics, etc. etc.
So is BW "harder" than SC2? Yes, but only if you want to take a very narrow and irrelevant definition of what it means to be harder.
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
Has anyone else noticed you only are referring to people who couldn't make it in BW? There's a ton of people who agree with us. I'm a SC2 Beta player who changed back to BW because SC2 was boring as shit to me. Notice noone worth listening to agrees with anyone who has an opinion similar to yours. Its either some other crappy SC2 player or someone who has something vested in the SC2 scene enough so that they'll defend it no matter what. There's no talking to people who are that dumb, so why would we try? I can't speak for the others here but I don't go around the SC2 forum trolling. The SC2 people have no trouble coming here either and continuously proclaiming the death of BW and how sad everything is and how everyone is going to SC2. The bottom line is that the SC2 scene isn't getting a ton of progame teams. Its not getting the multiple large corporate sponsorships, and its not getting ANY of the top 10 players of BW. The next year of tournaments will happen regardless of this stupid-ass Gretech situation as has already been stated officially.
Getting to D+ doesn't mean you know anything at all. I've gotten to C+ within 2 weeks every time I come back and play BW after taking year long breaks, and I don't know any modern build orders (read: I haven't read about build orders/watched pro-BW games since yellow vs boxer). I also don't understand timing attack in BW or any of the other shit you talk about.
We all went to SC2 without knowing what the units were. Within a few days, anyone who could do the basics could be diamond. Today the diamond league is still a huge cesspool of semi-ok players. I was a high diamond on SC2 as well as play BW. I don't care how much you self-proclaim that you're some awesome player on both and how we're full of shit. You're the only one that is constantly proving how full of shit you are. The only good players in SC2 are ex-BW players, and the ones that switched over were either practically retired on BW or sucked so bad they couldn't contend with top BW players anymore. Hell, even NaDa old as he is could probably stand up at the top for a long time on SC2 (definately will stomp the entire current joke of a "proscene" SC2 has). I'm willing to bet you're not really as good as you say you are on either game because quite simply... I've been involved in the inner workings of the proscenes a lot more than most. Noone, and I mean noone who is any good has attitudes like yours. When you learn how to act like an adult, maybe you can join us in trying to have BW and SC2 working together.
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
Has anyone else noticed you only are referring to people who couldn't make it in BW? There's a ton of people who agree with us. I'm a SC2 Beta player who changed back to BW because SC2 was boring as shit to me. Notice noone worth listening to agrees with anyone who has an opinion similar to yours. Its either some other crappy SC2 player or someone who has something vested in the SC2 scene enough so that they'll defend it no matter what. There's no talking to people who are that dumb, so why would we try? I can't speak for the others here but I don't go around the SC2 forum trolling. The SC2 people have no trouble coming here either and continuously proclaiming the death of BW and how sad everything is and how everyone is going to SC2. The bottom line is that the SC2 scene isn't getting a ton of progame teams. Its not getting the multiple large corporate sponsorships, and its not getting ANY of the top 10 players of BW. The next year of tournaments will happen regardless of this stupid-ass Gretech situation as has already been stated officially.
Getting to D+ doesn't mean you know anything at all. I've gotten to C+ within 2 weeks every time I come back and play BW after taking year long breaks, and I don't know any modern build orders (read: I haven't read about build orders/watched pro-BW games since yellow vs boxer). I also don't understand timing attack in BW or any of the other shit you talk about.
We all went to SC2 without knowing what the units were. Within a few days, anyone who could do the basics could be diamond. Today the diamond league is still a huge cesspool of semi-ok players. I was a high diamond on SC2 as well as play BW. I don't care how much you self-proclaim that you're some awesome player on both and how we're full of shit. You're the only one that is constantly proving how full of shit you are. The only good players in SC2 are ex-BW players, and the ones that switched over were either practically retired on BW or sucked so bad they couldn't contend with top BW players anymore. Hell, even NaDa old as he is could probably stand up at the top for a long time on SC2 (definately will stomp the entire current joke of a "proscene" SC2 has). I'm willing to bet you're not really as good as you say you are on either game because quite simply... I've been involved in the inner workings of the proscenes a lot more than most. Noone, and I mean noone who is any good has attitudes like yours. When you learn how to act like an adult, maybe you can join us in trying to have BW and SC2 working together.
I don't really card enough to respond in paragraphs, since your arguments are just absurd and you are misrepresenting my position horribly, as well as making unreasonable logical fallacies.
a) I never claimed to be good, I'm only pointing out that most of the people responding are terribad
b) Good job, you made it into high diamond. Did you win any big tournaments?
c) Of course it is easy to get into high diamond 1 month in, but it was easy to be a top player in BW 1 month in also. Try getting high diamond in 2 years.
d) Doubting that a random can get to C+ and have a shitty attitude towards idiots is LOL.
e) BW players troll harder than anyone, so accusing SC2 players of trolling is ridiculous. Any thread I read in the BW forums that mentions SC2 says this: "BW skill, SC2 unskill, everyone who plays SC2 does it because they're bad." They also say the same thing about WC3.
EDIT: Because you're so incredibly dense, let me repeat this:
Yes, the SC2 is "a joke" compared to BW. THIS IS BECAUSE SC2 IS 6 MONTHS OLD. The fact that you even try to compare the proscene in 10+ year old game to the proscene in a 6 month old (if you include the beta) game is just beyond retarded.
I don't really card enough to respond in paragraphs, since your arguments are just absurd and you are misrepresenting my position horribly, as well as making unreasonable logical fallacies.
You're trying to pull "logical fallacies" while simultaneously managing to show your lack of understanding of what they are. I usually respond in a longer format because I'm an educated person, and like to cover my points thoroughly. Its ok that most don't choose that route for their minds though.
a) I never claimed to be good, I'm only pointing out that most of the people responding are terribad
The same goes for SC2's side.
b) Good job, you made it into high diamond. Did you win any big tournaments?
No or else I'd probably be practicing my ladder right now instead of posting. I certainly tried though and found I could in fact contend at the earlier rounds and with practice maybe I could've gone farther.
c) Of course it is easy to get into high diamond 1 month in, but it was easy to be a top player in BW 1 month in also. Try getting high diamond in 2 years.
No, try getting into high diamond after its been out for years AND both the expansions have been out for years (plural). That is when I'll consider the SC2 scene to be as big, dominating, and mature as everyone seems to be acting like it is.
d) Doubting that a random can get to C+ and have a shitty attitude towards idiots is LOL.
Unless you cheese your way there, I literally don't know anyone who plays by 2007's rules (or earlier) and hasn't played in years and never touched SCBW who can just come back and clomp around near the blue ranks. If you play BW, you know that even a little time off will make your skill slip considerably when compared to the people who have been playing the entire time.
e) BW players troll harder than anyone, so accusing SC2 players of trolling is ridiculous. Any thread I read in the BW forums that mentions SC2 says this: "BW skill, SC2 unskill, everyone who plays SC2 does it because they're bad." They also say the same thing about WC3.
This is the most LOL ever. SC2 players are people just like BW players are. People tend to bitch and annoy each other sometimes no matter what. SC2 people definately troll hard like you claim SCBW people do. I don't go over there with a shitty attitude because one day I might be too old to play at 300+ APM on BW or maybe I'll just want to switch over 100% instead of 50-50. The same type of people can certainly exist within SC2 community like they can in SCBW. As for the whole "skill vs unskill" thing... "SCBW Proleague". That's all I have to say.
I just read it and I agree with most of what you said. Its really hard for a beginner to get into SC1 because of the skill level. Even d- players in iccup aren't too bad
Yes, the SC2 is "a joke" compared to BW. THIS IS BECAUSE SC2 IS 6 MONTHS OLD. The fact that you even try to compare the proscene in 10+ year old game to the proscene in a 6 month old (if you include the beta) game is just beyond retarded.
Really? No shit! So stop trying to argue a bunch of retarded points as if the scene is mature and ready to take on the scene of BW. The fact that you come in a forum dedicated to BW, make an ignorant blanket statement that everyone in this opinion pool is a terribad n00b player with no brains IS "beyond retarded".
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that. But I do not think people play sc2 because it's easier.
I feel like you missed the entire point of my post. Sure, BW is "harder" in the sense that it's harder to a-move 100 supply in BW than in SC2, and in the sense that dragoons are mind-bogglingly retarded compared to stalkers. However, BW players want to take this fact and say that BW therefor requires more skill to compete at the top level, or that players will reach some skill ceiling in SC2.
There is no reason to believe a priori that the latter is true, and I think all of the top foreigners from BW who play SC2 believe that it is false; that no one will ever reach the skill ceiling in SC2.
As for the former, it is obviously true at the moment, but that's because nobody has spent 5 years playing the game, perfectly their build orders, timings, mechanics, etc. etc.
So is BW "harder" than SC2? Yes, but only if you want to take a very narrow and irrelevant definition of what it means to be harder.
No, BW is harder because 1) harder to amove groups of units/control 2) no multi building selection (harder macro) 3) no automining 4) more retarded AI People think SC2 is a game that requires more intelligence than bw, but that is wrong. SC2 just rewards intelligent thinking more because all of the 'mechanics' are pretty much dealt with by the AI and new features.
I really don't think anyone would reach the skill ceiling in any RTS.
Please ask the top foreigners whether they think bw is harder or sc2. Most of them will say BW. Though some will prob give the bullshit responses "oh both are hard games" "you cant compare the 2". None, I mean zero, will say SC2 is harder than bw. I also think I remember Nony or Idra saying BW was harder, i forget. im a bit more sure it was idra edit: or it could be both of them who said bw was harder
You still aren't understanding:
In any player versus player game, as long as there is no skill cap that players can actually reach and the winner is determined primarily by skill (i.e., not mostly luck based), it is meaningless to say one game is harder than the other.
On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that.
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly."
On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that.
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly."
July was referring to the ability to dominate the competition is harder, because there is so little that separates the top tier from the rest in SC2 atm unlike in BW where for the top players it was easier to just maintain your skills due to there being more separating the top from the average joe
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that. But I do not think people play sc2 because it's easier.
I feel like you missed the entire point of my post. Sure, BW is "harder" in the sense that it's harder to a-move 100 supply in BW than in SC2, and in the sense that dragoons are mind-bogglingly retarded compared to stalkers. However, BW players want to take this fact and say that BW therefor requires more skill to compete at the top level, or that players will reach some skill ceiling in SC2.
There is no reason to believe a priori that the latter is true, and I think all of the top foreigners from BW who play SC2 believe that it is false; that no one will ever reach the skill ceiling in SC2.
As for the former, it is obviously true at the moment, but that's because nobody has spent 5 years playing the game, perfectly their build orders, timings, mechanics, etc. etc.
So is BW "harder" than SC2? Yes, but only if you want to take a very narrow and irrelevant definition of what it means to be harder.
No, BW is harder because 1) harder to amove groups of units/control 2) no multi building selection (harder macro) 3) no automining 4) more retarded AI People think SC2 is a game that requires more intelligence than bw, but that is wrong. SC2 just rewards intelligent thinking more because all of the 'mechanics' are pretty much dealt with by the AI and new features.
I really don't think anyone would reach the skill ceiling in any RTS.
Please ask the top foreigners whether they think bw is harder or sc2. Most of them will say BW. Though some will prob give the bullshit responses "oh both are hard games" "you cant compare the 2". None, I mean zero, will say SC2 is harder than bw. I also think I remember Nony or Idra saying BW was harder, i forget. im a bit more sure it was idra edit: or it could be both of them who said bw was harder
You still aren't understanding:
In any player versus player game, as long as there is no skill cap that players can actually reach and the winner is determined primarily by skill (i.e., not mostly luck based), it is meaningless to say one game is harder than the other.
How is that so? Just because there is no skill cap does not mean that all games have the same learning curve. It also is easier to reach near the skill cap in some games over others. I can safely say it's easier to reach near skill cap in say Warcraft III over BW. Right?
What evidence do you have to support that conclusion about WC3?
Also, what exactly is appealing about having a steeper learning curve? As long as the skill cap is high enough that no players will ever reach it, I would prefer games to have a less steep learning curve so that more players can enjoy having at least a half-decent game, and more casuals now-->more competitive players later, generally.
On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that.
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly."
July was referring to the ability to dominate the competition is harder, because there is so little that separates the top tier from the rest in SC2 atm unlike in BW where for the top players it was easier to just maintain your skills due to there being more separating the top from the average joe
I'm not going to say this is inaccurate, but where are you inferring this from?. The link given by krndandaman doesn't suggest anything of the sort.
On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that.
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly."
July was referring to the ability to dominate the competition is harder, because there is so little that separates the top tier from the rest in SC2 atm unlike in BW where for the top players it was easier to just maintain your skills due to there being more separating the top from the average joe
I'm not going to say this is inaccurate, but where are you inferring this from?. The link given by krndandaman doesn't suggest anything of the sort.
its due to the learning curve being so rediculously easy, July said sc2 is harder, thats because there are way more people at the higher levels and the game depends less on APM which July had relied on for a while (if you were around July IS mr.818 apm)
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that. But I do not think people play sc2 because it's easier.
I feel like you missed the entire point of my post. Sure, BW is "harder" in the sense that it's harder to a-move 100 supply in BW than in SC2, and in the sense that dragoons are mind-bogglingly retarded compared to stalkers. However, BW players want to take this fact and say that BW therefor requires more skill to compete at the top level, or that players will reach some skill ceiling in SC2.
There is no reason to believe a priori that the latter is true, and I think all of the top foreigners from BW who play SC2 believe that it is false; that no one will ever reach the skill ceiling in SC2.
As for the former, it is obviously true at the moment, but that's because nobody has spent 5 years playing the game, perfectly their build orders, timings, mechanics, etc. etc.
So is BW "harder" than SC2? Yes, but only if you want to take a very narrow and irrelevant definition of what it means to be harder.
No, BW is harder because 1) harder to amove groups of units/control 2) no multi building selection (harder macro) 3) no automining 4) more retarded AI People think SC2 is a game that requires more intelligence than bw, but that is wrong. SC2 just rewards intelligent thinking more because all of the 'mechanics' are pretty much dealt with by the AI and new features.
I really don't think anyone would reach the skill ceiling in any RTS.
Please ask the top foreigners whether they think bw is harder or sc2. Most of them will say BW. Though some will prob give the bullshit responses "oh both are hard games" "you cant compare the 2". None, I mean zero, will say SC2 is harder than bw. I also think I remember Nony or Idra saying BW was harder, i forget. im a bit more sure it was idra edit: or it could be both of them who said bw was harder
You still aren't understanding:
In any player versus player game, as long as there is no skill cap that players can actually reach and the winner is determined primarily by skill (i.e., not mostly luck based), it is meaningless to say one game is harder than the other.
How is that so? Just because there is no skill cap does not mean that all games have the same learning curve. It also is easier to reach near the skill cap in some games over others. I can safely say it's easier to reach near skill cap in say Warcraft III over BW. Right?
What evidence do you have to support that conclusion about WC3?
Also, what exactly is appealing about having a steeper learning curve? As long as the skill cap is high enough that no players will ever reach it, I would prefer games to have a less steep learning curve so that more players can enjoy having at least a half-decent game, and more casuals now-->more competitive players later, generally.
Why do we need more competitive players? The high skill cap of BW makes it a very impressive spectator game. If every player has perfect macro, that immediately takes away a whole element of multitasking. Now things like easy spellcasting, again makes it massively easier and also makes the spells far less impressive to pull off considering they happen in every game perfectly. No more Jangbi storms, no BeSt style players known for their macro. I can imagine the future of SC2 is going to result in much closer games decided by very small mistakes to be honest, to me that is far less interesting.
[QUOTE]On September 21 2010 07:06 krndandaman wrote: [QUOTE]On September 21 2010 07:03 unit wrote:
its due to the learning curve being so rediculously easy, July said sc2 is harder, thats because there are way more people at the higher levels and the game depends less on APM which July had relied on for a while (if you were around July IS mr.818 apm)[/QUOTE]
Just to expand on that, you mean harder to be the best, right?
[QUOTE]On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: [/QUOTE]
Yeah Flash Vs Jaedong is a good example (and before that people said the same about Bisu Vs Jaedong). Small advantages snowballing into easy wins just isn't entertaining if it happens all the time... BW gave a chance for comebacks very easily because of the huge amount of multitasking required and even some of the best have lapses all the time, but this is not so true in SC2.
On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that.
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly."
July was referring to the ability to dominate the competition is harder, because there is so little that separates the top tier from the rest in SC2 atm unlike in BW where for the top players it was easier to just maintain your skills due to there being more separating the top from the average joe
I'm not going to say this is inaccurate, but where are you inferring this from?. The link given by krndandaman doesn't suggest anything of the sort.
its due to the learning curve being so rediculously easy, July said sc2 is harder, thats because there are way more people at the higher levels and the game depends less on APM which July had relied on for a while (if you were around July IS mr.818 apm)
Once again, where are you inferring this from? Where does July state his reason for why SC2 is more difficult?
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
I just love u guy, in any post you made here , you just treated people who disagree with you as an idiot, now tell me, please "enlight me" (Great C+ whenever i want) how is SC scene delaying SC2 rise? lets be honest and serious, if SC2 would be the great game right now, BW would be dead even in Korea and every sponsor will be in SC2, or you think that the people who run the big Korean companies are retards too?, fyi I have been in RTS games like 8 or 9 years and can tell you for sure that any expert has intelligent play and thought (superior than others), but i think you dont even know the meaning of those words, and finally I think in any community there are many good guys and few trolls, you are in the second group, guess why....
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that. But I do not think people play sc2 because it's easier.
I feel like you missed the entire point of my post. Sure, BW is "harder" in the sense that it's harder to a-move 100 supply in BW than in SC2, and in the sense that dragoons are mind-bogglingly retarded compared to stalkers. However, BW players want to take this fact and say that BW therefor requires more skill to compete at the top level, or that players will reach some skill ceiling in SC2.
There is no reason to believe a priori that the latter is true, and I think all of the top foreigners from BW who play SC2 believe that it is false; that no one will ever reach the skill ceiling in SC2.
As for the former, it is obviously true at the moment, but that's because nobody has spent 5 years playing the game, perfectly their build orders, timings, mechanics, etc. etc.
So is BW "harder" than SC2? Yes, but only if you want to take a very narrow and irrelevant definition of what it means to be harder.
No, BW is harder because 1) harder to amove groups of units/control 2) no multi building selection (harder macro) 3) no automining 4) more retarded AI People think SC2 is a game that requires more intelligence than bw, but that is wrong. SC2 just rewards intelligent thinking more because all of the 'mechanics' are pretty much dealt with by the AI and new features.
I really don't think anyone would reach the skill ceiling in any RTS.
Please ask the top foreigners whether they think bw is harder or sc2. Most of them will say BW. Though some will prob give the bullshit responses "oh both are hard games" "you cant compare the 2". None, I mean zero, will say SC2 is harder than bw. I also think I remember Nony or Idra saying BW was harder, i forget. im a bit more sure it was idra edit: or it could be both of them who said bw was harder
You still aren't understanding:
In any player versus player game, as long as there is no skill cap that players can actually reach and the winner is determined primarily by skill (i.e., not mostly luck based), it is meaningless to say one game is harder than the other.
How is that so? Just because there is no skill cap does not mean that all games have the same learning curve. It also is easier to reach near the skill cap in some games over others. I can safely say it's easier to reach near skill cap in say Warcraft III over BW. Right?
What evidence do you have to support that conclusion about WC3?
Also, what exactly is appealing about having a steeper learning curve? As long as the skill cap is high enough that no players will ever reach it, I would prefer games to have a less steep learning curve so that more players can enjoy having at least a half-decent game, and more casuals now-->more competitive players later, generally.
There was an interview of Moon (a warcraft III progamer) who said it himself that warcraft III is much easier to 'master' than bw. also it's somewhat common knowledge among gamers that warcraft III has a pretty much solved + Show Spoiler [M word...] +
metagame
. I think Chill mentioned this in one of his blogs, I forget. Is that enough evidence for you?
It's appealing because there is always that higher level you want to reach and even when you think you're the fucking best out of everyone around you, in the next neighborhood is another guy that can rape you 10-0 ez. That just boils my competitive blood. Some people hate steep learning curves, some people like it. It's all preference. Some might not even care about it at all!
On September 21 2010 04:47 krndandaman wrote: For reference, I am a BW player who stuck to BW. Also, it's a known fact that BW is harder than SC2, and I'm pretty sure everyone acknowledges that.
Regarding Starcraft 2's gameplay, he said that "I think the game has gotten more difficult compared to the original", adding that "But because I had experience playing Starcraft as a progamer, I'm getting better rapidly."
July was referring to the ability to dominate the competition is harder, because there is so little that separates the top tier from the rest in SC2 atm unlike in BW where for the top players it was easier to just maintain your skills due to there being more separating the top from the average joe
I'm not going to say this is inaccurate, but where are you inferring this from?. The link given by krndandaman doesn't suggest anything of the sort.
i didn't give a link.
Moon may have said BW was harder to master than WC3, but if you look at WC3 pros coming to SC2 and BW pros coming to SC2, WC3 pros are doing just as well, if not better. This, to me, indicates that it obviously takes quite a lot of skill to reach the top of WC3.
EDIT: What exactly does learning curve have to do with there always being a better player than you? That has nothing to do with a learning curve, only a skill ceiling.
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
I just love u guy, in any post you made here , you just treated people who disagree with you as an idiot, now tell me, please "enlight me" (Great C+ whenever i want) how is SC scene delaying SC2 rise? lets be honest and serious, if SC2 would be the great game right now, BW would be dead even in Korea and every sponsor will be in SC2, or you think that the people who run the big Korean companies are retards too?, fyi I have been in RTS games like 8 or 9 years and can tell you for sure that any expert has intelligent play and thought (superior than others), but i think you dont even know the meaning of those words, and finally I think in any community there are many good guys and few trolls, you are in the second group, guess why....
I never even said that the SC scene was delaying SC2 rise, I said the best you people who want BW to remain dominant could hope for is SC lasting a little bit longer before SC2 becomes dominant. Learn how to read before calling me a troll, thanks.
Also, regarding experts having intelligent play and thought: did I ever say they didn't? Where exactly did I say "Top BW players play unintelligently and rely on mechanics alone," or anything remotely similar?
EDIT: Regarding treating people as idiots: I've only responded to people as if they were idiots after they proved that they were. On the other hand, I was told to go play FFT and flamed by about 10 people after my first post. If you expect me to respond to people civilly after they misrepresent my position and show a blatant inability to read, you're SOL.
During the beta down time between phase 1 and phase 2, I talked to many very prominent foreign BW players when they went back on iccup (not gonna name them to protect their privacy). The general consensus I got after talking with them was that BW compared to SC2 (at the moment, not counting its potential after patches and expansions) was that BW is by far the superior game. Maybe it's because of inherent game flaws, maybe it's because the game is too young, I wont try to draw any conclusions. Anyways, the majority of them said that they will not play SC2 or will only play because that is the direction the community is going. Very few of them said that they play SC2 because it is truly a better game than BW.
It's good to see so many people responding to my post!
On September 20 2010 18:44 aimaimaim wrote: its hard not to bash the sc2 .. well not the game .. i just hate gretech and gretech represents sc2 so yeah, its hard ..
It's interesting that you mention this. One of the things I almost included in my analysis of the cycle game communities go through is the evolution of attitudes towards the company that produced the original and the sequel, but I decided ultimately that it wasn't relevant enough.
I haven't looked into this since I don't have Windows 7, but if that is a good fix it's a pretty big deal. One thing I didn't mention in my post and in hindsight probably should have is how damaging it is to Brood War that it and Windows 7 don't get along. Those kinds of mundane obstacles to playing the game can make all the difference in the world.
On September 20 2010 22:02 groms wrote: I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*)
This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing.
I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game?
Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings.
You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close.
Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft.
=(.
It isn't a question of whether new players should or shouldn't be willing to slog through the iCCup experience. The fact is that iCCup is rougher than it needs to be, and few new players will be that persevering. If something doesn't change to make it easier for them, it will significantly reduce the number that actually stick with it.
On September 21 2010 00:11 tree.hugger wrote: I argued before in the Sc2 forum that the killing of BW would mean the death of Sc2 as well, and that it would be in Blizzard's best interest to promote both. I think you've stated very well one of the key points of that argument.
If video games are to be taken seriously as actual esports, and take hold in the general public, than they must not be seen as five-ten year fads that will burn out with the introduction of a sequel.
Well put.
I actually remember seeing that post of yours and thought it was very well reasoned and written. Undoubtedly it influenced some of the thought that went into this post.
On September 21 2010 03:33 sc1saus wrote: I dunno really, your writeup is very good but honestly most examples given were community-feelings. But here we are dealing with a game wich has gone beyond "game". And thus this is the first time a company is trying to actively kill it's own old game.
I like your response because I really am interested in starting a dialogue. Most of my examples are indeed community feelings as you put it, but the communities are the people who actually play the game, so I think trends within the community are highly relevant. As for Blizzard trying to kill Brood War, the only part of the equation I see this affecting much is the existence of Proleague and the amount of sponsorship for StarCraft 2, unless they start paying people to stop playing Brood War casually.
On September 21 2010 04:12 ziGG wrote: That being said from what I understand you are pretty off on the halo transition. Halo 1 was (still is?) Condsiderd the best mutiplayer incarnation of the series. When halo 2 came out most high level players didn't like it nearly as much. But the main league MLG was getting very little attendance. They switch to halo2. And exploded with growth despite the "top tier" players disliking it.
The reason I added qualifiers there is that I am not super familiar with the competitive Halo scene, and I might not have represented it totally accurately. In my defense, I did not mean to suggest that there was no push back from one game to the next, but that overall the community transitioned fairly quickly and did not leave behind much following to speak of in Halo 1 or Halo 2. I probably did not make this clear enough in the OP.
As for you, PJA, you are the main reason I decided to respond at all on this thread.
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
This was your first post in the thread. No one posted anything at all bashing SC2 prior to this post. This post was clearly intended to be highly inflammatory, and frankly started steering the discussion into BW vs SC2 almost immediately, which is just about the last direction I wanted this thread to go in. The other ten posts you made in this thread (yes, I counted) are all in the same vein. I would just ask that you bite your tongue on this thread and find a different place to argue about the merits of SC2 over BW. The first sentence of your post is arguably on topic, but is a ridiculous oversimplification of a very nuanced situation which I attempted to dissect more carefully in the OP. The only point you make regarding BW that I want to address, since I see it a lot, is this:
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
Of course no one would want to play that harder version of Brood War, but nor would anyone want to play a StarCraft 3 where you just told the game what you wanted to do and the AI took care of the micro and macro for you. Actual Brood War and StarCraft 2 do not lie on the same point on the spectrum, but both are a long ways away from either extreme as well. Where on the spectrum is best is purely a matter of preference, a fact that seems to escape too many on both sides of the argument. Still I would thank you AJP, for providing a great example of this part of my post:
On September 20 2010 10:47 conTAgi0n wrote: [Fans of the sequel] are not predisposed to resent the original, but when it seems to hamper the growth of their game, they often see it as having overstayed its welcome.
Don't you guys hate it when once in a few months, a guy with probably a probe/scv/drone icon posts something with a fuckton of content that all your posts added?
On September 20 2010 22:38 ZeaL. wrote: Being a person that plays SC2 daily but still stayed up for the last OSL/MSL finals I have to say that "Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing" could use a lot more work. On a lot of boards, especially BW general, anytime SC2 comes up in a discussion someone just has to say "fuck sc2" or some retarded thing like that. That hostility would probably discourage newer sc2 players or even older bw players that play sc2 from getting involved or contributing. When someone posts something uninformed about the bw proscene someone just HAS to go and point out that their date joined is post 2009 and say something like "lol newbs should stfu before they post anything". How is the scene supposed to grow when the people who comprise the scene are elitist dicks that shut off their community from newbies? I noticed the mods have become a lot more aggressive with respect to banning flagrant sc2 flaming but it still pops up quite frequently.
i think the only reason people have anything against sc2 is that it is s precursser to all of these recent negative events in the BW scene. At least, that's how I feel. I really just don't want to see the BW scene fall apart because I have followed it for so long.
That is completely understandable, I don't want the bw scene to fall apart either and its easy to just lay the blame at blizzard and sc2's hands but doing that is very counterproductive. I'm willing to bet there's a lot of people on this site that either used to watch bw and play sc2 now or came here because of sc2's release. This is a pretty large goldmine of people who are interested in competitive RTS and potential bw fans. When these people venture into bw general and just see a bunch of "sc2 is ez only noobs play sc2" how do you think that makes them feel?
As far as the other points in the OP are concerned, I don't think there will ever be a revival of foreign bw. iCCup is brutal to start with and battle.net is... well battle.net. Most beginners won't even consider a 10 year old game that only seasoned veterans play with such a high learning curve unless they have a friend who persuades them. Why play sc:bw with its often retarded AI and high mechanical requirements against really good people when you can play sc2 with its easier introduction and play against people around your skill level? It ain't happening. The most we can hope for is that the kespa manages to let the starleagues continue.
Prior to reading my post, know that I've had Starcraft since its release. I played the game as my exclusive video game for 6 or 7 years. By exclusive, I mean 6+ hours a day when I could, doing everything from Custom to Campaign to iCCup.
From the OP:
3) Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing
StarCraft 2 players are probably actually the people most likely to pick up Brood War, given the connections and similarities StarCraft 2 shares with the original. If StarCraft 2 players perceive the Brood War community as antagonistic towards their game, they will lose a lot of their curiosity about the original. I think most Brood War players on teamliquid.net have been fairly well behaved, but there is still room for improvement on this point.
This is a very important point from the OP. Being trolled because I like Starcraft 2 doesn't make me want to go back to the Brood War community. In fact, it almost makes me glad that I'm past it and into the new game.
I watch mind boggling amounts of Jon747's channel (VioletAK commentaries are a sweet, tasty bonus!), and I love to watch Brood War.
But after experiencing Starcraft 2, Brood War just isn't as much fun any more. I still play it when I can't play Starcraft 2 (when I have to wait for a ride after college classes, when Battle.net 2.0 is down, etc.), but the game just isn't as much fun as the sequel. There isn't a single thing that is fun about managing the stupid Dragoon AI. The "skill" involved does nothing for me because I don't play games to stroke my e-peen. I play to have fun.
Every time I think about going and playing some Brood War when I have the option between the two games, I often go back and read the Brood War topics on TL. Obviously I check out the Nada's Body thread, and then the sandpit that is the GomTV vs KeSPA topics.
While I find that I do enjoy the healthy parts of the debate between GomTV vs KeSPA, 3 out of 4 posts in those threads boil down to BW vs SC2. 9 out of 10 of these BW vs SC2 posts are BW exclusive players that pester SC2 players because they "have no skill," they "took the easy way out," they "attack move and watch with their easy macro," and the list goes on.
I think that it is important to remember just how many people play SC2. Does everyone currently active on Team Liquid' (the team, not the website that we are a part of) lack skill because they switched to SC2? Are all the other foreigners who switched over (read: everyone that was an active, pro-level BW foreigner) just looking for an easy way out? Does more money from tournaments mean that Starcraft 2 is a phase that will soon pass, only to be surpassed by Brood War soon after?
The point I'm trying to make is that most of these posts hailing Brood War and demeaning Starcraft 2 fail to recognize everyone in the world except some Koreans in select PC cafes and on televised OSL/MSL/PL matches. The posters proclaiming their superiority because they play Brood War are no-names just like everyone else, and the vast majority are looking to stroke their e-penises because they don't want to own up to the fact that they are trying to prove something to someone, yet that someone isn't there.
Antagonizing me the player that enjoys another game yet enjoys both the BW and SC2 scene doesn't encourage me to come back, it just makes me wish I could delete them from the forum so that I could just read intelligent discussions in peace. Play nice :D
EDIT: after reading over this there's a lot of mish mash mixed all together, but hopefully I said something sensible >.> I need to get some sleep. I'll revise this in the morning!
On September 21 2010 13:24 Hikko wrote: The point I'm trying to make is that most of these posts hailing Brood War and demeaning Starcraft 2 fail to recognize everyone in the world except some Koreans in select PC cafes and on televised OSL/MSL/PL matches. The posters proclaiming their superiority because they play Brood War are no-names just like everyone else, and the vast majority are looking to stroke their e-penises because they don't want to own up to the fact that they are trying to prove something to someone, yet that someone isn't there.
No sir. The reason I bash SC2 is because it's an inferior game in my eyes intruding upon the establishments of my favorite game. I don't need to prove anything to you; if you play SC2, I don't care as long as you keep to yourself(or be nice about it). Or do you not find the legal threats to BW a reason for people to resent SC2? I'm not sure if this was poorly worded or just inflammatory, but honestly, a few less insults would be nice. I've flamed SC2 pretty hard before, but I realized that trying to sink the other isn't going to help anyone.
Gretech/Blizzard is the reason why I hate SC2 .. the legal issue hinders the growth of BW and with this issue, the people who are already playing their part in the proscene is having trouble because they dont have a hand in it anymore. the future looks bleak because its up the courts whether BW lives or dies. and some just dont want to gamble on a thing that has an unceartain future .. would you?
and regarding SC2 as an esport .. they stil dont have good players worthy to be seen on TV .. i dont like watching amateures (most of them are) duke it out. its a sight for sore eyes.
also regarding SC2 being easy or hard .. just put it this way .. Nada and July, regardless of what they said, knows they can't be top dogs in BW. the skill cap increased so much that their current skill aren't up to it. so they changed to SC2 ..
the game isn't hard nor easy .. the players are the ones that makes the game hard. Micro, Macro, Star Sense, etc., these are the factors that players must focus on to be on top, regardless if its BW or SC2 .. its just that in BW, the skill cap is just so high, players who want to be on top are discouraged because they can't achieve it.
To Hikko, I find hyperbole like "Does everyone currently active on Team Liquid' (the team, not the website that we are a part of) lack skill because they switched to SC2?" to be inflammatory if you're discussing which game is more 'skillful'. Of course TL has great RTS players, but they couldn't be A-team regulars in BroodWar, and several of them tried. I'm sure many of the top foreign RTS players were bored of 10 years of BW and it's great they now have a fresh similar game to showcase their talents in. But it's also true that there was almost no money in BW for years and there were dozens, if not hundreds (based on ICCUP stats) of Korean amateurs who were winning a majority of the time vs. top foreigners. There's nothing wrong with playing for money, but it's incorrect to insinuate prize money didn't play a big role in the rapid switch of foreigner BW players to SC2.
But all this is besides the point, because there isn't going to be any mass return of players to BW. The ICCUP administration doesn't cater to newcomers. Shiny graphics, more accessible controls, name what you will, the vast majority of people aren't going to spend the time to appreciate the nuances of BW. At this point I'm sick of the same debate showing up everywhere and am ready to let BW go the way of the dinosaur.
On September 21 2010 14:28 aimaimaim wrote: and regarding SC2 as an esport .. they stil dont have good players worthy to be seen on TV .. i dont like watching amateures (most of them are) duke it out. its a sight for sore eyes.
Watch game 1 and cry tears of joy and experience warm feelings of amazement. This is a comeback if there was ever one. It's worth the effort to register for Gom's website.
On September 21 2010 14:55 Trap wrote:But all this is besides the point, because there isn't going to be any mass return of players to BW. The ICCUP administration doesn't cater to newcomers. Shiny graphics, more accessible controls, name what you will, the vast majority of people aren't going to spend the time to appreciate the nuances of BW. At this point I'm sick of the same debate showing up everywhere and am ready to let BW go the way of the dinosaur.
If that was the case, why wouldn't it have died years ago to 'shinier games with more accessible controls?' Plenty of those were released in the past 12 years. The proscene keeps BW alive.
Hello! I'm a long time lurker who just had to make an account to post in this thread.
I played SC and BW when they were released for many years but stopped playing in 2003 or so. I currently play SC2. During the between years I religiously watched (and still do) the proleague. I definitely have a deeper love for BW than I do SC2. But I just can't bring myself to play it. The biggest factor preventing me from playing BW is primarily one of community.First and foremost I prefer to play games with my friends. I know no one who plays BW yet many who play SC2. To an outsider the BW scene appears arcane and intimidating. I don't believe it's simply a matter of more difficult mechanics, or steeper learning curve. Rather, it is a matter of attempting to find and make friends in a very old community who often appears hostile and derisive of new faces. Whether this is true or not, I do not know. It is merely my impression.
To respond more specifically to the OP's post, I am quite familiar with the problems old and much loved games have with the emergence of a sequel. My experience primarily comes from QWTF and TFC. The former game had great gameplay and a good community. With the release of a new game with better graphics, but generally assumed to be "crappier" gameplay, the scene hurt a lot. For the first year or so there was a general air of elitism and arrogance from the QWTF community who disregarded and lambasted the sequel alienating massive amounts of potential players. After the first year, the QWTF community realised it needed an attitude change to attract new players and there was a fairly concerted effort to be more helpful, open and friendly towards potential new players. I believe it worked to a degree (although not enough to save the game or community). Rather than crapping on the new game's players, yelling at them, or in short, telling them they are "n00bs", people tried to calmly and openly explain the benefits of the older game, inviting them to come and try it.
The many completely inane debates about which game has "more skill", about who is responsible for killing this or that game, etc. which have surfaced in this thread (and are seen throughout the forum) do nothing to help the cause of BW community. Clearly the OP has made a well throughout post. But concerning for the BW community are the subsequent posts which have quickly gone back to trying prove that BW and its players are better than the "scrubs" who play SC2. Whether this attitude changes or not will determine the fate of the BW community... in the non-Korean world anyway.
/end 2 cents
edit: Just an idea that came to mind. Maybe you convince someone who has a lot of currency with the SC2 community, like Day9, to do a cast about BW for SC2 players? Encourage them to give it a go etc.
On September 21 2010 14:28 aimaimaim wrote: and regarding SC2 as an esport .. they stil dont have good players worthy to be seen on TV .. i dont like watching amateures (most of them are) duke it out. its a sight for sore eyes.
Watch game 1 and cry tears of joy and experience warm feelings of amazement. This is a comeback if there was ever one. It's worth the effort to register for Gom's website.
thats like .. uhmm 1 game??
i can post hundreds forom PL, dozens from OSL and MSL ..
1 good game or a couple doesnt make me want to watch SC2 as an e-sport .. and like i said, most of them are amateurs. some might be good but that wont be enough to top what PL is going to bring. and like i said before, i hate gretech's move to kill PL and exchange it with GSL, its like me want to watch UFC and these guys want to give WWE. (i dont hate WWE nor UFC though .. )
Watch game 1 and cry tears of joy and experience warm feelings of amazement. This is a comeback if there was ever one. It's worth the effort to register for Gom's website.
Not to sound like an ass but are you sure that Artosis and Tasteless didn't "trick" you into believing it was an amazing game? Yes, I did watch the game. They're pretty good at their job actually. I listen to GSL commentary in the background while I work, just cause those two guys are an awesome duo.
Anyway! I suppose the feeling you got from that game is the feeling I get from watching any game of Brood War.
Good write up, I liked the final thoughts the most. Foreign BW lacks "roots" at the moment, which should be alarming, if people care about its growth. Successful learning process requires occasional positive reinforcement. That is, when you improve something little about your play, you need an objective measure to test and confirm that.
When veterans were beginners, there were many other beginners to play with and improve reasonably, by small steps. Also, in Korea there is a well established coaching structure, in which naturally the older players teach the newer players and pull them in. Koreans aren't born with BW in their blood, it's about the way their community works.
The potential appeal of SC2 now lies not in graphics or gameplay, but the way it treats new players.
Great read, thought I'd share my TL and SC experience as my group of people is referred to.
I am new to Starcraft 2, only played since beginning of retail. Took me a week or so to find TL, I have to say this website was pretty hard to navigate at first! As a gamer obviously I had always known about Broodwar, but the knowledge didn't extend much past 'Koreans are serious business about Starcraft'. I have to say, playing Starcraft 2, which brought me to TL has opened my eyes to how amazing the world of Starcraft was and is. I had no interest in Broodwar before, now I find myself reading up on players I hear about, watching matches, reading BW threads. I haven't played yet but with a little nudge I could probably be persuaded.
The most attractive thing about BW is the community! It's really inspiring to see how many loyal fans there are and the sheer passion that they share. OP is right though, hostility from BW players towards SC2 is not attractive. I even find myself becoming defensive, SC2 brought me into this world of Starcraft and just has you feel threatened, suddenly I am made to feel threatened too and the rift appears.
I could quite honestly see myself playing both games as the skill sets are similar so I wouldn't lose out too much doing switches.
So here, a person who would never have even glanced at Broodwar before, suddenly has interest because of Starcraft 2. I hope BW never dies, I wish it to run as a different game to the sequel. Being able to follow the scenes of and play both of the games just seems like a huge win win for me.
Hosting games on iccup isnt that hard... just don be lazy and port forward... host and wait.. is better than finding a game. However, best to learn the game, practice, get a clan and train internally with one another on iccup...
I've played BW since it was released, and for us old schoolers, we've heard people claim that the game was dying since as early as 2001. Of course, it never did die, and only got stronger. I play SC2 now, and I think there's some real potential in that game, but after seeing wave after wave of failed predictions of the death of BW, I'll definitely only believe it when I see it.
OP excellent post and a really good read, thank you.
I played around with single player Starcraft with cheats as a kid and thats all I got to know about it. Earlier this year though I decided to try my hand at it properly in anticipation of SC2 and luckily made a great bunch of friends in [TA] who seemed like the remaining Aussies who played SC on iCCup. They literally helped me so much and taught me heaps in the space of a month to get me to D+ and I can really appreciate how rich and amazing BW is but I'll probably move onto SC2 as all my friends are playing it now.
On September 21 2010 14:28 aimaimaim wrote: and regarding SC2 as an esport .. they stil dont have good players worthy to be seen on TV .. i dont like watching amateures (most of them are) duke it out. its a sight for sore eyes.
Watch game 1 and cry tears of joy and experience warm feelings of amazement. This is a comeback if there was ever one. It's worth the effort to register for Gom's website.
thats like .. uhmm 1 game??
i can post hundreds forom PL, dozens from OSL and MSL ..
1 good game or a couple doesnt make me want to watch SC2 as an e-sport)
SC2 is in its infancy. The point he makes is that the game he linked gives us a glimpse of SC2's long term potential to evolve into what BW has been. Especially once your non-amateurs get involved.
Your part about Super Smash wasn't accurate. Both games are popular, but Brawl is by far still more popular today. It's on the MLG pro circuit, the major national tournaments for it, Apex 2010 for instance, get people from other countries to fly out to compete, and have well over 200 people in attendance. Some of the super smash tournaments are larger than any Starcraft-only tournament outside of Korea honestly.
Ever since the release of brawl, more people have played brawl at the tournaments for brawl and melee together, and it's stayed that way for over 2 years. Just the melee community members are the loudest try to spread propoganda, like it doesn't have combos, it isn't as technical (this is untrue), and isn't as deep (brawl is deeper mentally than melee for sure).
I haven't looked into this since I don't have Windows 7, but if that is a good fix it's a pretty big deal. One thing I didn't mention in my post and in hindsight probably should have is how damaging it is to Brood War that it and Windows 7 don't get along. Those kinds of mundane obstacles to playing the game can make all the difference in the world.
Apparently it's not a 100% working fix as it wasn't written specifically for Starcraft, but with a "little" bit of work I think it could be made into a 100% working fix and THEN it would be a pretty big deal.
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
Hmm, to my knowledge, Incontrol and Chill all seem pretty cynical about SC2 and everything about it XD
Very objectively, and fancy graphics apart (they are not even that good...), I played both games (SC since 98) and BW is clearly much better than the sequel, on almost every part. I can't even imagine one of the top former BW player advocate against this point of view. If someone does, and has played BW enough, I'm very curious to know about his arguments except : freshness, money, graphics and community (which don't imply a good game on the long run).
Many people get tricked cause they see them switch, but it's often purely by personal interest. They want to make money (even very few) while playing a video game. Some people like Artosis or day9 are fucking paid to cast the new game ; what do you think they will say ? By the way, it's really painful to see some of them trying to advocate against the game which made esport possible, solely in order to get SC2 bigger.
Seriously, new SC2 comers should at least refrain their words when they talk about BW. For my part, I don't believe SC2 has a bright progaming future (no offense), even though it's a damn fun game to play with friends! So as long as it is not killed artificially, BW progaming will remain undisputed, simply cause the base game is much deeper and more enjoyable.
And don't tell me "the game will get better, it's so new, it will be patched" etc etc. We'll talk about this when that's the case, and it doesn't seem anytime soon.
On September 21 2010 04:12 ziGG wrote: That being said from what I understand you are pretty off on the halo transition. Halo 1 was (still is?) Condsiderd the best mutiplayer incarnation of the series. When halo 2 came out most high level players didn't like it nearly as much. But the main league MLG was getting very little attendance. They switch to halo2. And exploded with growth despite the "top tier" players disliking it.
The reason I added qualifiers there is that I am not super familiar with the competitive Halo scene, and I might not have represented it totally accurately. In my defense, I did not mean to suggest that there was no push back from one game to the next, but that overall the community transitioned fairly quickly and did not leave behind much following to speak of in Halo 1 or Halo 2. I probably did not make this clear enough in the OP.
The H1->H2->H3->HR transitions have been pretty interesting, actually. Since MLG 'owns' the professional Halo scene, transitions from one game to the next are essentially business decisions to keep the larger community's interest high and attendance levels up. So yeah, the community transitioned quickly because they had to. And it wasn't because the core gameplay didn't change significantly from one title to the next, because it did. Replacing a highly-accurate single shot utility weapon (pistol) with a less-accurate burst fire utility weapon (BR) completely changed the game, especially with the H3 BR (which was horrible), as did a number of other 'improvements' (thanks Bungie) like weakening grenades, increased bullet magnetism, the elimination of momentum-based melees for H3, and style-over-substance maps. As such, many folks are happy to transition to Reach since it returns to many of the tenets that made H1 great (though it still has issues of its own).
There is still a vibrant community of MLG folks who still LAN/XBC H1 on a regular basis, by the way. The following is very much there (some will play nothing but H1), but tend to compliment that with whatever Halo is currently used for MLG competition.
Great read. I think we need to let brood war go slowly - right now SC2 isn't quite "balanced" and there needs to be tweaking. Until then I think Bee-Dub will have a grip on the the community.
I think that at this time, the barrier for new players to enter BW is too high to overcome.
Not withstanding technical issues, the skill level is very, very intimidating. I tried to learn Terran BW 2 years ago, I would practice build orders/mass game/watch pro-matches every time I could. After a month or so, my record on iCCup was 14-50 or something like that, stuck in the vortex where I would get destroyed by D players and I would massacre D- players.
In SC2, I'm ranked in the 95th percentile for 1v1 Terran. I hardly play 1v1. Winning percentage in anything but 1v1 is 70-80%. I wonder which feels better?
I'm definitely seeing the same thing in other games. I attend weekly SF4 gatherings. My friend has an arcade in his garage, and used to concentrate exclusively on 3S. He picked up console SF4 during the waning days and a couple people would show up. Once SSF4 came and he installed that, we would see an influx of more people, a lot of them still trying to break out of their noob phase. And they're enjoying themselves and getting better, because there's a lot of new players or even old players learning new characters. A couple of SF4 players expressed interest in playing 3S, but they just get blown out of the water... and not even to high level players! It's difficult for them to find people on their level to play against and get better because yes, we want to win once in a while.
Once a sequel comes out, it's very hard to see people reverse direction and play an older game, simply because the old pros are at a level much higher than they are.
The technical issues are also there. Did you know that Nintendo stopped manufacturing GC controllers? How hard is it to get BW working on Windows 7? (Explaining port forwarding is a nightmare!) Once a company pulls manufacturing of the system or controller, or when technology doesn't support old code, the influx of new players completely stops. Tekken nearly destroyed their US fanbase by releasing T5 on PS2, T5.1 on arcade, T5: DR on PSP and then later PS3, then T6 on arcade. What system to get? What about the controller? It all screwed us over and even though we now have a perfect port in T6: BR, the damage was done. But back then, no one knew what version to play, and as people were leaving their PS2s for PS3s, technology prevented us from playing older versions even if they were better.
IMO, the only way for BW to experience a revival (at least, in the US) is if somehow a collective group of new people decided to play BW again, and somehow this group would influence other new players to pick it up and play with them again... but that's highly doubtful. I can only see that happening if BW was on bnet 2.0.
I don't think BW will have much of a revival, but I don't think changing the game or setup has anything to do with people not playing it. A game like starcraft will always have hardcore gamers, because the skill cap is incredibly high, but this doesn't mean that everyone has to be like that. If more people played, the average skill would drop considerably, and you would see lower leveled people on iccup as well as other lower skilled ladders that new players could use.
Sadly, the only real way to play online is through iccup (garena and gameranger I know can play sc but there will be about 10 people online) and trying your luck on iccup is just asking to get crushed.
So really the only way to solve this would be bw going more mainstream, which is going to be impossible in today's world of graphics being the #1 priority.
Would be interesting if Blizzard released Starcraft: Brood War HD, basically the same everything just higher quality sprites and Battlenet 2.0 with matchmaking. I bet it would spark some new interest in Brood War again.
Too bad Blizzard won't do that... hah. Some community(TL!) needs to make a mod.
To be honest, I don't care if BW ever gets revived outside of Korea. Aside from a few TL tournaments and show-matches there weren't that many interesting things going on, and SC2 has been great in reintroducing new excitement and activity. The problem is that BW in Korea is so deep and beautiful right now, that SC2 at this stage and this level of competition simply cannot compare.
If legal problems destroy Korean BW right now, many of us would go to SC2 as a substitute and find it lacking. Judging SC2 like this will be unfair because SC2 at this stage is comparable to vanilla SC1 back in the day (hell I think it's better than vanilla SC1 was). SC2 has a lot of potential but right now how can it compare to a game that has been developed and played for over a decade by the very best?
Some of us may hold out hope that SC2 will improve as SC1 did, but we will also be afraid and cynical that it will disappoint us in the end. We will vocalize our disappointment and this will antagonize fans of SC2. Nobody likes being told something they love is "inferior." This may create a negative backlash where suggestions to fix some of SC2's more fundamental issues will be met with hostility.
This is why I feel that BW progaming in Korea MUST continue to exist at this time, for the good of the community. I actually don't really want to see two parallel "esports" and would love for everyone to compete in SC2 one day, but SC2 itself simply isn't ready to shoulder that burden yet. To take away BW now and and force a substitute would naturally make people expect the same level of quality and greatness from that substitute. This is a crazy expectation for a game still in the infancy of development as an esport.
If Blizzard and Gretech do manage to kill off BW in Korea, then I'm afraid there will be some very bad and divisive feelings between the two Starcraft communities.
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
but Go IS harder then chess
people should had dealt with him like that, Go vs Chess is miles better then SC:BW vs SC2
anyways I really liked the OP and defenitely agree, I too once bashed SC2 but I actually watched IEM and found out I actually enjoyed SC2 a bit. I really think there should be more ressource like that SC2 to BW guide, a ICCUP for new players only would actually be really good and encourage SC2 players to join BW
I don't think anyone should be bashing anything. Both games can coexist in eSports. This should be very apparent by this point. I wish all this fighting would stop so both scenes can get sponsored, people paid, and jobs kept. I don't like watching lives fall apart over games...
No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
From telling Starcraft II fans they suck for liking HD and Husky... that nothing will ever be as exciting as when in Brood War "X silly overpowered mechanic most likely based on poor coding and glitching" was used...
I won't pretend for a second you guys haven't made me want Brood War to die, hard. Never even considered playing Brood War as a result-- and God knows you can't enjoy those atrocious graphics until you have a solid feel for the gameplay and mechanics yourself.
So yeah-- this guy is smart. In a perfect world new players would include those with an elitist, self-punishing streak, and these guys would be interested in Brood War eventually... if you didn't tell them the game they love and enjoy sucks and that they would only be Z SUPER MINUS FAIL on ICCUP.
On September 22 2010 16:50 Ndugu wrote: No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
This is exactly what makes me hate much of the SC2 community, or at least the part of it that denounces BW. You're welcome to play SC2 and ignore BW if you want. But a lot of SC2 players find it necessary to come insult the original, something like what you just did. I really wouldn't care how successful SC2 could become if not for the people wanting BW to die. As I said before, keep SC2 out of BW areas or at least be respectful. I'm sure you would want the same for your board/streams. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if, for example, Korea was considering banning SC2 entirely and the BW community came to laugh at you. Try to avoid that with the current legal issues because it really is annoying. Don't think the SC2 community can't be just as bad at this. It's really a cycle of unkindness. Being resentful doesn't solve that much. Play BW or don't, but don't call BW players 'old farts' and get insulted when someone calls you 'skilless trash' or something.
On September 22 2010 16:50 Ndugu wrote: No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
From telling Starcraft II fans they suck for liking HD and Husky... that nothing will ever be as exciting as when in Brood War "X silly overpowered mechanic most likely based on poor coding and glitching" was used...
I won't pretend for a second you guys haven't made me want Brood War to die, hard. Never even considered playing Brood War as a result-- and God knows you can't enjoy those atrocious graphics until you have a solid feel for the gameplay and mechanics yourself.
So yeah-- this guy is smart. In a perfect world new players would include those with an elitist, self-punishing streak, and these guys would be interested in Brood War eventually... if you didn't tell them the game they love and enjoy sucks and that they would only be Z SUPER MINUS FAIL on ICCUP.
How utterly unhipocritical of you to come to the BW forum and talk about how bad BW is. BW fans don't go into the SC2 forums and slag on it because we keep the Starcraft 2 tabs closed. It's abusive degenerates like you who post trash in the BW forum that we react unpleasantly to.
theres always some warcraft 2 fanboy posting spam on here trying to get everyone to switch to war2 on his russian server but has that server ever really increased population through these efforts?
still , hats off to the guy for trying to keep a 15 year old game alive
I play broodwar using only one hand. That makes the game harder than anything you guys play, and therefore makes my form of broodwar inherently superior to anything anyone else plays. Jaedong and the rest are clearly noobs for playing with both hands because they choose to play an easier game.
I play broodwar using only one hand. That makes the game harder than anything you guys play, and therefore makes my form of broodwar inherently superior to anything anyone else plays. Jaedong and the rest are clearly noobs for playing with both hands because they choose to play an easier game.
Why not to make game where both sides chooses strategy and computer decides the winner? I bet you would be the best player.
No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
I play broodwar using only one hand. That makes the game harder than anything you guys play, and therefore makes my form of broodwar inherently superior to anything anyone else plays.
One is an offensive SC2 advocate, and the other doesn't know how to make a properly representative analogy. I don't know if the decent people in the SC2 community know this, but morons like these are plentiful and are the vast majority of your representatives here in the BW forums. Of course we're going to react badly when immature children post a bunch of shit that should've gotten them beaten when they were little if they had even half-decent parents. Without a constant regard for respect, how can you expect anything new to be anything but a very short temporary fad?
I think I fall into the category of resentment because of the fact that sc2 is called starcraft. If it had any other name other than starcraft I would feel like it is much less threatening. I would love to see some kind of joint Broodwar / SC2 event where both games are played together. I'm not sure if that will ever happen after reading about the disputes between kespa and gretech.
I had a similar feeling when Team Fortress 2 was released. I was a hardcore TF:C player, and I didn't really see how the two games were related at all other than having similar unit design. I eventually started liking tf2 a lot, but still not as much as I ever liked tfc. I just don't see the point in it being called starcraft. Besides the unit models, it doesn't feel starcraty to me at all.
I feel ashamed resenting SC2, because I know it is negative and I even know it's wrong to, but I do it anyway. I subscribed to and have been watching the GSL so it's not like I hate SC2. I'm anxious for the next season when nada and julyzerg play for sure, but I don't think there is any way that I could possibly like sc2 as much as I do broodwar. Broodwar is the best game of all time and I want it to become an eternal set in stone sport just like crickett or football or hockey etc. I want esports to grow no matter what game it is, but I would very much love to see broodwar more than any game at the front of esports.
Well written, personally i play sc2, but would love to see a sc1 revival, if only to watch the pros play, much more entertaining than watching sc2 pros.
I don't have a problem with SC2 at first, but only when its representatives, Blizzard and Gretech, tries everything to kill BW. That is when i got really mad.
On September 23 2010 10:06 Tribune wrote: Well written, personally i play sc2, but would love to see a sc1 revival, if only to watch the pros play, much more entertaining than watching sc2 pros.
what? SC1 Pros do still play.
The problem people have is that Starcraft II has not proved itself to be a successful e-sport. Starcraft Broodwar didn't ride ride coattails of anything, it became the top e-sport because it was the best, most competitive and best spectator computer game. Starcraft II has shown none of that so far. The only reason the idea of switching from SC:BW to SC2 arose is because of the name. If SC2 had exactly the same gameplay as it does now but was called 'Space Battle' and had different unit names and designs then no one would even be considering shutting down BW until years later once 'Space Battle' had proved itself to be a success.
On September 22 2010 16:50 Ndugu wrote:Never even considered playing Brood War as a result-- and God knows you can't enjoy those atrocious graphics until you have a solid feel for the gameplay and mechanics yourself.
SC2 is the game with atrocious graphics if you ask me. For being 2010, the graphics are pretty weak considering where we are in the evolution of multimedia entertainment.
And why does Starcraft2 even have to be part of TL.net? Did we really need a bigger site just for the sake of having more members? The topic should read "SC2 will be the death of TL.net"
I can understand some of the concerns and tribulations of Brood Wars players with the release and esports drive of sc2, although I was never a broodwars player myself.
I am a competitive Counter-Strike 1.6 player, and really felt hit hard with the release of CS:Source. It divided the community in 2, with top european teams and players mostly staying with cs 1.6, while MGS league and its higher salary and better sponsers/exposure caused many top players to migrate from 1.6 to source. The cs esport community ended up being bitterly divided, with neither game dominating the competitive landscape. MGS ultimately died and now the vast majority of competitive play has returned to 1.6, but the community remains divided. In 2007, considered by many to be the peak year for cs as an esport, there were 30k+ spectators viewing CPL (a top tournement, which closed it's doors that same year). Now the top tournements rarely break 10k, and what was previously the top news portal, www.gotfrag.com, has died almost completely.
TLDR: cs 1.6 lost much of its community, top tournements, and overall appeal because of the release and competitive push of CS:S, which ultimately did not manage to surpass 1.6 as a competitive platform. I hope sc2/bw proves different.
I never played BW competitively, just because I was quite young when the game was released, I tried to play the campaign, massing units and stuff, messing around. Even with this little playtime, Starcraft holds a dear place in my heart, because I just loved watching that game. That was the first RTS I've ever seen in my life. Period.
And you know why I became interested to Starcraft 2 after a whole damn lotta time and without any sort of multiplayer BW experience? It is because those dear memories of me, little kid 9 years old, trying to mess around with the game. I knew that I can now enjoy this game, because I was too noobish when I was a kid. ( If you ask what happened like 3-4 years after that, I played a whole lotta Diablo 2 so not much time for SC hehe )
It must be really annoying to see people come and insult something you like. Just because SC 2 has better graphics, better unit AI, better unit grouping, fancy cute new ideas like cliff hopping, shouldn't mean that everyone HAS to love it. I just love it because I loved watching Beta videos like the amazing Nazgul vs TLO match of TL invitational. It seemed cool. Also, following a tournament (HDH) was quite fun. Oh guess what, this is the first tournament that I watched. The guys here, from what I can understand, been following BW scene for around what, a decade now? How shocking, they actually love BW! So, to all BW bashers that I can see here, just leave the guys alone and do what you enjoy, play SC2. It is really stupid to come and try to make people angry just because you think the game they play sucks etc etc..
After having said that, I think habits are not easy to change. Starcraft 2 right now, has some strategies like 4gate that ppl abuse, so you may think SC 2 is boring because of that. But Starcraft 2 is just 2 months old, just 2 freaking months. SC 1 has been out for more than a decade now, and the game must be fairly stable in terms of strategies. But SC 2 is just young, and needs tweaking. For example, carriers haven't seen much use yet, Day9 asks his viewers to try Carrier rushing and send their replays, and it turns out that carriers can be quite powerful if used right. He asked zerg players to try out no-queen strategies and some sent really nice replays.The game will be much more solid as time passes and if right steps are taken.
Also, some people might view technical limitations such as limited control groups and messy unit pathing as something that enhances the game experience, as if "oh, look at the SC2 noobies, they can control a million units in a group, it takes no skill". I think a RTS game should be as smooth as it can be control-wise, so that you can execute what strategy you have in mind much more easily, while focusing more on the action you are going to take. Just because you can box a million units in SC2 and arrange them into a single control group, or you need to click 50% less than you needed in BW to perfectly make an army move in a reasonable shape, doesn't mean it takes no skill. It just means that you need to do way less unnecessary clicking that may overshadow the whole bigger picture of strategy.
On September 20 2010 22:02 groms wrote: I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*)
This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing.
I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game?
Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings.
You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close.
Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft.
=(.
I'm sorry I didn't enjoy it either.
I wouldn't call myself a "casual gamer" though. I played wc3 for like 7 years, Ladder/DotA. I was a CS player as well for about 6 years(played in cal b4 it got corrupt). I was just presenting my dilemma and saying I thought it was harder for people who join games after they are established(in my case 12 years later) b/c people have been playing for years before you that gap is often hard to close.
Since I started playing SC2 when it came out in beta I don't feel like I'm at as big of a disadvantage compared to BW players(even though I am still b/c my macro isn't as polished).
I am disappointed by shurgen's reaction to a new one trying out BW on iCCup. I would have been more welcoming. I apologize for that buffoon's behalf. What the heck does he want, limit new ones to awful B.net to play BW?
I can't be bothered by all the negativity from both sides of BW vs. SC2, but I want both to flourish. BW doesn't have to die for SC2 to flourish.
Guess what game they got to base off the entire time while making the game! Yup, BW! It's their fault for making such a crappy (yet shiny) game with limited 1base play all-ins or blob vs blob.
On September 29 2010 08:04 Amnesia wrote: lol Bleak. Starcraft2 at 2 months?
Guess what game they got to base off the entire time while making the game! Yup, BW! It's their fault for making such a crappy (yet shiny) game with limited 1base play all-ins or blob vs blob.
While you're right at the statement that the game may be too dependant on specific strategies, I think map pool and the way maps are designed is what should be blamed for that. The rush distances are usually very small on almost every map, this makes games end quite fast sometimes.
They may have based SC2 on SC, but there are different units and even unit stats, armor types, attack types etc. many stuff is different from the first game. There are new macro mechanics and many other interesting ideas such as creep spreading, larva inject, supply drop/MULE, chronoboost etc. Combined with many other factors, the game is actually quite different in many areas, but same in core. You still collect resources and try to kill your opponent. Most of the units are same, even if some units are removed they are replaced with units that can fill the same hole.
I haven't watched that many BW, so I take it that blob vs blob means a huge army vs a huge army? There weren't much of that in BW? I am just gonna take a guess and say that because of limited control groups and worse unit pathing, very big scale battles may have been rare. But still, what do I know, just correct me if I'm wrong.
In any case, I think SC2 is a good game. Maps and map design is my biggest complaint so far. If game had big maps like those used in the videos I watched, there would be more interesting games.
EPT
