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I never played BW competitively, just because I was quite young when the game was released, I tried to play the campaign, massing units and stuff, messing around. Even with this little playtime, Starcraft holds a dear place in my heart, because I just loved watching that game. That was the first RTS I've ever seen in my life. Period.
And you know why I became interested to Starcraft 2 after a whole damn lotta time and without any sort of multiplayer BW experience? It is because those dear memories of me, little kid 9 years old, trying to mess around with the game. I knew that I can now enjoy this game, because I was too noobish when I was a kid. ( If you ask what happened like 3-4 years after that, I played a whole lotta Diablo 2 so not much time for SC hehe )
It must be really annoying to see people come and insult something you like. Just because SC 2 has better graphics, better unit AI, better unit grouping, fancy cute new ideas like cliff hopping, shouldn't mean that everyone HAS to love it. I just love it because I loved watching Beta videos like the amazing Nazgul vs TLO match of TL invitational. It seemed cool. Also, following a tournament (HDH) was quite fun. Oh guess what, this is the first tournament that I watched. The guys here, from what I can understand, been following BW scene for around what, a decade now? How shocking, they actually love BW! So, to all BW bashers that I can see here, just leave the guys alone and do what you enjoy, play SC2. It is really stupid to come and try to make people angry just because you think the game they play sucks etc etc..
After having said that, I think habits are not easy to change. Starcraft 2 right now, has some strategies like 4gate that ppl abuse, so you may think SC 2 is boring because of that. But Starcraft 2 is just 2 months old, just 2 freaking months. SC 1 has been out for more than a decade now, and the game must be fairly stable in terms of strategies. But SC 2 is just young, and needs tweaking. For example, carriers haven't seen much use yet, Day9 asks his viewers to try Carrier rushing and send their replays, and it turns out that carriers can be quite powerful if used right. He asked zerg players to try out no-queen strategies and some sent really nice replays.The game will be much more solid as time passes and if right steps are taken.
Also, some people might view technical limitations such as limited control groups and messy unit pathing as something that enhances the game experience, as if "oh, look at the SC2 noobies, they can control a million units in a group, it takes no skill". I think a RTS game should be as smooth as it can be control-wise, so that you can execute what strategy you have in mind much more easily, while focusing more on the action you are going to take. Just because you can box a million units in SC2 and arrange them into a single control group, or you need to click 50% less than you needed in BW to perfectly make an army move in a reasonable shape, doesn't mean it takes no skill. It just means that you need to do way less unnecessary clicking that may overshadow the whole bigger picture of strategy.
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On September 20 2010 23:48 groms wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2010 23:07 shurgen wrote:On September 20 2010 22:02 groms wrote:
I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*) This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing. I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game? Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings. You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close. Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft. =(. I'm sorry I didn't enjoy it either. I wouldn't call myself a "casual gamer" though. I played wc3 for like 7 years, Ladder/DotA. I was a CS player as well for about 6 years(played in cal b4 it got corrupt). I was just presenting my dilemma and saying I thought it was harder for people who join games after they are established(in my case 12 years later) b/c people have been playing for years before you that gap is often hard to close. Since I started playing SC2 when it came out in beta I don't feel like I'm at as big of a disadvantage compared to BW players(even though I am still b/c my macro isn't as polished).
I am disappointed by shurgen's reaction to a new one trying out BW on iCCup. I would have been more welcoming. I apologize for that buffoon's behalf. What the heck does he want, limit new ones to awful B.net to play BW?
I can't be bothered by all the negativity from both sides of BW vs. SC2, but I want both to flourish. BW doesn't have to die for SC2 to flourish.
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lol Bleak. Starcraft2 at 2 months?
Guess what game they got to base off the entire time while making the game! Yup, BW! It's their fault for making such a crappy (yet shiny) game with limited 1base play all-ins or blob vs blob.
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On September 29 2010 08:04 Amnesia wrote:
lol Bleak. Starcraft2 at 2 months?
Guess what game they got to base off the entire time while making the game! Yup, BW! It's their fault for making such a crappy (yet shiny) game with limited 1base play all-ins or blob vs blob.
While you're right at the statement that the game may be too dependant on specific strategies, I think map pool and the way maps are designed is what should be blamed for that. The rush distances are usually very small on almost every map, this makes games end quite fast sometimes.
They may have based SC2 on SC, but there are different units and even unit stats, armor types, attack types etc. many stuff is different from the first game. There are new macro mechanics and many other interesting ideas such as creep spreading, larva inject, supply drop/MULE, chronoboost etc. Combined with many other factors, the game is actually quite different in many areas, but same in core. You still collect resources and try to kill your opponent. Most of the units are same, even if some units are removed they are replaced with units that can fill the same hole.
I haven't watched that many BW, so I take it that blob vs blob means a huge army vs a huge army? There weren't much of that in BW? I am just gonna take a guess and say that because of limited control groups and worse unit pathing, very big scale battles may have been rare. But still, what do I know, just correct me if I'm wrong.
In any case, I think SC2 is a good game. Maps and map design is my biggest complaint so far. If game had big maps like those used in the videos I watched, there would be more interesting games.
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EPT
