I think that at this time, the barrier for new players to enter BW is too high to overcome.
Not withstanding technical issues, the skill level is very, very intimidating. I tried to learn Terran BW 2 years ago, I would practice build orders/mass game/watch pro-matches every time I could. After a month or so, my record on iCCup was 14-50 or something like that, stuck in the vortex where I would get destroyed by D players and I would massacre D- players.
In SC2, I'm ranked in the 95th percentile for 1v1 Terran. I hardly play 1v1. Winning percentage in anything but 1v1 is 70-80%. I wonder which feels better?
I'm definitely seeing the same thing in other games. I attend weekly SF4 gatherings. My friend has an arcade in his garage, and used to concentrate exclusively on 3S. He picked up console SF4 during the waning days and a couple people would show up. Once SSF4 came and he installed that, we would see an influx of more people, a lot of them still trying to break out of their noob phase. And they're enjoying themselves and getting better, because there's a lot of new players or even old players learning new characters. A couple of SF4 players expressed interest in playing 3S, but they just get blown out of the water... and not even to high level players! It's difficult for them to find people on their level to play against and get better because yes, we want to win once in a while.
Once a sequel comes out, it's very hard to see people reverse direction and play an older game, simply because the old pros are at a level much higher than they are.
The technical issues are also there. Did you know that Nintendo stopped manufacturing GC controllers? How hard is it to get BW working on Windows 7? (Explaining port forwarding is a nightmare!) Once a company pulls manufacturing of the system or controller, or when technology doesn't support old code, the influx of new players completely stops. Tekken nearly destroyed their US fanbase by releasing T5 on PS2, T5.1 on arcade, T5: DR on PSP and then later PS3, then T6 on arcade. What system to get? What about the controller? It all screwed us over and even though we now have a perfect port in T6: BR, the damage was done. But back then, no one knew what version to play, and as people were leaving their PS2s for PS3s, technology prevented us from playing older versions even if they were better.
IMO, the only way for BW to experience a revival (at least, in the US) is if somehow a collective group of new people decided to play BW again, and somehow this group would influence other new players to pick it up and play with them again... but that's highly doubtful. I can only see that happening if BW was on bnet 2.0.
I don't think BW will have much of a revival, but I don't think changing the game or setup has anything to do with people not playing it. A game like starcraft will always have hardcore gamers, because the skill cap is incredibly high, but this doesn't mean that everyone has to be like that. If more people played, the average skill would drop considerably, and you would see lower leveled people on iccup as well as other lower skilled ladders that new players could use.
Sadly, the only real way to play online is through iccup (garena and gameranger I know can play sc but there will be about 10 people online) and trying your luck on iccup is just asking to get crushed.
So really the only way to solve this would be bw going more mainstream, which is going to be impossible in today's world of graphics being the #1 priority.
Would be interesting if Blizzard released Starcraft: Brood War HD, basically the same everything just higher quality sprites and Battlenet 2.0 with matchmaking. I bet it would spark some new interest in Brood War again.
Too bad Blizzard won't do that... hah. Some community(TL!) needs to make a mod.
To be honest, I don't care if BW ever gets revived outside of Korea. Aside from a few TL tournaments and show-matches there weren't that many interesting things going on, and SC2 has been great in reintroducing new excitement and activity. The problem is that BW in Korea is so deep and beautiful right now, that SC2 at this stage and this level of competition simply cannot compare.
If legal problems destroy Korean BW right now, many of us would go to SC2 as a substitute and find it lacking. Judging SC2 like this will be unfair because SC2 at this stage is comparable to vanilla SC1 back in the day (hell I think it's better than vanilla SC1 was). SC2 has a lot of potential but right now how can it compare to a game that has been developed and played for over a decade by the very best?
Some of us may hold out hope that SC2 will improve as SC1 did, but we will also be afraid and cynical that it will disappoint us in the end. We will vocalize our disappointment and this will antagonize fans of SC2. Nobody likes being told something they love is "inferior." This may create a negative backlash where suggestions to fix some of SC2's more fundamental issues will be met with hostility.
This is why I feel that BW progaming in Korea MUST continue to exist at this time, for the good of the community. I actually don't really want to see two parallel "esports" and would love for everyone to compete in SC2 one day, but SC2 itself simply isn't ready to shoulder that burden yet. To take away BW now and and force a substitute would naturally make people expect the same level of quality and greatness from that substitute. This is a crazy expectation for a game still in the infancy of development as an esport.
If Blizzard and Gretech do manage to kill off BW in Korea, then I'm afraid there will be some very bad and divisive feelings between the two Starcraft communities.
On September 21 2010 03:47 PJA wrote: Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
but Go IS harder then chess
people should had dealt with him like that, Go vs Chess is miles better then SC:BW vs SC2
anyways I really liked the OP and defenitely agree, I too once bashed SC2 but I actually watched IEM and found out I actually enjoyed SC2 a bit. I really think there should be more ressource like that SC2 to BW guide, a ICCUP for new players only would actually be really good and encourage SC2 players to join BW
I don't think anyone should be bashing anything. Both games can coexist in eSports. This should be very apparent by this point. I wish all this fighting would stop so both scenes can get sponsored, people paid, and jobs kept. I don't like watching lives fall apart over games...
No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
From telling Starcraft II fans they suck for liking HD and Husky... that nothing will ever be as exciting as when in Brood War "X silly overpowered mechanic most likely based on poor coding and glitching" was used...
I won't pretend for a second you guys haven't made me want Brood War to die, hard. Never even considered playing Brood War as a result-- and God knows you can't enjoy those atrocious graphics until you have a solid feel for the gameplay and mechanics yourself.
So yeah-- this guy is smart. In a perfect world new players would include those with an elitist, self-punishing streak, and these guys would be interested in Brood War eventually... if you didn't tell them the game they love and enjoy sucks and that they would only be Z SUPER MINUS FAIL on ICCUP.
On September 22 2010 16:50 Ndugu wrote: No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
This is exactly what makes me hate much of the SC2 community, or at least the part of it that denounces BW. You're welcome to play SC2 and ignore BW if you want. But a lot of SC2 players find it necessary to come insult the original, something like what you just did. I really wouldn't care how successful SC2 could become if not for the people wanting BW to die. As I said before, keep SC2 out of BW areas or at least be respectful. I'm sure you would want the same for your board/streams. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if, for example, Korea was considering banning SC2 entirely and the BW community came to laugh at you. Try to avoid that with the current legal issues because it really is annoying. Don't think the SC2 community can't be just as bad at this. It's really a cycle of unkindness. Being resentful doesn't solve that much. Play BW or don't, but don't call BW players 'old farts' and get insulted when someone calls you 'skilless trash' or something.
On September 22 2010 16:50 Ndugu wrote: No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
From telling Starcraft II fans they suck for liking HD and Husky... that nothing will ever be as exciting as when in Brood War "X silly overpowered mechanic most likely based on poor coding and glitching" was used...
I won't pretend for a second you guys haven't made me want Brood War to die, hard. Never even considered playing Brood War as a result-- and God knows you can't enjoy those atrocious graphics until you have a solid feel for the gameplay and mechanics yourself.
So yeah-- this guy is smart. In a perfect world new players would include those with an elitist, self-punishing streak, and these guys would be interested in Brood War eventually... if you didn't tell them the game they love and enjoy sucks and that they would only be Z SUPER MINUS FAIL on ICCUP.
How utterly unhipocritical of you to come to the BW forum and talk about how bad BW is. BW fans don't go into the SC2 forums and slag on it because we keep the Starcraft 2 tabs closed. It's abusive degenerates like you who post trash in the BW forum that we react unpleasantly to.
theres always some warcraft 2 fanboy posting spam on here trying to get everyone to switch to war2 on his russian server but has that server ever really increased population through these efforts?
still , hats off to the guy for trying to keep a 15 year old game alive
I play broodwar using only one hand. That makes the game harder than anything you guys play, and therefore makes my form of broodwar inherently superior to anything anyone else plays. Jaedong and the rest are clearly noobs for playing with both hands because they choose to play an easier game.
I play broodwar using only one hand. That makes the game harder than anything you guys play, and therefore makes my form of broodwar inherently superior to anything anyone else plays. Jaedong and the rest are clearly noobs for playing with both hands because they choose to play an easier game.
Why not to make game where both sides chooses strategy and computer decides the winner? I bet you would be the best player.
No part of the Starcraft II community has been more vocally abrasive and negative than the old farts from Brood War.
I play broodwar using only one hand. That makes the game harder than anything you guys play, and therefore makes my form of broodwar inherently superior to anything anyone else plays.
One is an offensive SC2 advocate, and the other doesn't know how to make a properly representative analogy. I don't know if the decent people in the SC2 community know this, but morons like these are plentiful and are the vast majority of your representatives here in the BW forums. Of course we're going to react badly when immature children post a bunch of shit that should've gotten them beaten when they were little if they had even half-decent parents. Without a constant regard for respect, how can you expect anything new to be anything but a very short temporary fad?
I think I fall into the category of resentment because of the fact that sc2 is called starcraft. If it had any other name other than starcraft I would feel like it is much less threatening. I would love to see some kind of joint Broodwar / SC2 event where both games are played together. I'm not sure if that will ever happen after reading about the disputes between kespa and gretech.
I had a similar feeling when Team Fortress 2 was released. I was a hardcore TF:C player, and I didn't really see how the two games were related at all other than having similar unit design. I eventually started liking tf2 a lot, but still not as much as I ever liked tfc. I just don't see the point in it being called starcraft. Besides the unit models, it doesn't feel starcraty to me at all.
I feel ashamed resenting SC2, because I know it is negative and I even know it's wrong to, but I do it anyway. I subscribed to and have been watching the GSL so it's not like I hate SC2. I'm anxious for the next season when nada and julyzerg play for sure, but I don't think there is any way that I could possibly like sc2 as much as I do broodwar. Broodwar is the best game of all time and I want it to become an eternal set in stone sport just like crickett or football or hockey etc. I want esports to grow no matter what game it is, but I would very much love to see broodwar more than any game at the front of esports.
Well written, personally i play sc2, but would love to see a sc1 revival, if only to watch the pros play, much more entertaining than watching sc2 pros.
I don't have a problem with SC2 at first, but only when its representatives, Blizzard and Gretech, tries everything to kill BW. That is when i got really mad.
On September 23 2010 10:06 Tribune wrote: Well written, personally i play sc2, but would love to see a sc1 revival, if only to watch the pros play, much more entertaining than watching sc2 pros.
what? SC1 Pros do still play.
The problem people have is that Starcraft II has not proved itself to be a successful e-sport. Starcraft Broodwar didn't ride ride coattails of anything, it became the top e-sport because it was the best, most competitive and best spectator computer game. Starcraft II has shown none of that so far. The only reason the idea of switching from SC:BW to SC2 arose is because of the name. If SC2 had exactly the same gameplay as it does now but was called 'Space Battle' and had different unit names and designs then no one would even be considering shutting down BW until years later once 'Space Battle' had proved itself to be a success.
On September 22 2010 16:50 Ndugu wrote:Never even considered playing Brood War as a result-- and God knows you can't enjoy those atrocious graphics until you have a solid feel for the gameplay and mechanics yourself.
SC2 is the game with atrocious graphics if you ask me. For being 2010, the graphics are pretty weak considering where we are in the evolution of multimedia entertainment.
And why does Starcraft2 even have to be part of TL.net? Did we really need a bigger site just for the sake of having more members? The topic should read "SC2 will be the death of TL.net"
I can understand some of the concerns and tribulations of Brood Wars players with the release and esports drive of sc2, although I was never a broodwars player myself.
I am a competitive Counter-Strike 1.6 player, and really felt hit hard with the release of CS:Source. It divided the community in 2, with top european teams and players mostly staying with cs 1.6, while MGS league and its higher salary and better sponsers/exposure caused many top players to migrate from 1.6 to source. The cs esport community ended up being bitterly divided, with neither game dominating the competitive landscape. MGS ultimately died and now the vast majority of competitive play has returned to 1.6, but the community remains divided. In 2007, considered by many to be the peak year for cs as an esport, there were 30k+ spectators viewing CPL (a top tournement, which closed it's doors that same year). Now the top tournements rarely break 10k, and what was previously the top news portal, www.gotfrag.com, has died almost completely.
TLDR: cs 1.6 lost much of its community, top tournements, and overall appeal because of the release and competitive push of CS:S, which ultimately did not manage to surpass 1.6 as a competitive platform. I hope sc2/bw proves different.
EPT
