I have to put a point of view from a former SC:BW fan to now a SC2 fanboy (i don't even play the game yet, bad PC).
So in preparation for my new rig i tried to restart playing SC:BW on iccup. First my laptop crashes (win7 issue) and that pisses me off. But ok, i start it up in windowed mode and host a game. The fact that people leave the game because i want to play random is just bad (in sc2, you don't get to pick, and i think that is for the best). And after my game the guy says he's sad coz he lost to a mentally disabled person doesn't make you wanna host an another game.
That said, the chance of resurrection in the foreign community is very bad to none. I would contribute the fact of success of Counter-Strike 1.6 in the very poor preparation of CS:S, same as happened in Unreal Tournament 3, as the game was so bad nobody even bought it.
Enough to say, i installed Wc3 and started playing single player.
I'm one of the new people who come to this site for StarCraft 2 and become intrigued by BroodWar scene. BW has really a lot of rich history and it's fun getting to know the root of StarCraft. And I love Flash and Jaedong ^^. I really wish the community is not divided into two, but I guess it can't be helped.
Being a person that plays SC2 daily but still stayed up for the last OSL/MSL finals I have to say that "Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing" could use a lot more work. On a lot of boards, especially BW general, anytime SC2 comes up in a discussion someone just has to say "fuck sc2" or some retarded thing like that. That hostility would probably discourage newer sc2 players or even older bw players that play sc2 from getting involved or contributing. When someone posts something uninformed about the bw proscene someone just HAS to go and point out that their date joined is post 2009 and say something like "lol newbs should stfu before they post anything". How is the scene supposed to grow when the people who comprise the scene are elitist dicks that shut off their community from newbies? I noticed the mods have become a lot more aggressive with respect to banning flagrant sc2 flaming but it still pops up quite frequently.
On September 20 2010 22:02 groms wrote: I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*)
This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing.
I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game?
Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings.
You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close.
Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft.
On September 20 2010 22:02 groms wrote: I can definitely agree with this post. I was one who came here(from wc3) fell in love with SC2 and as a result of lurking on TL.net found out about OSL/MSL matches and started waking up at odd hours of the night to watch them. After I grew weary of laddering on SC2 I often thought about trying SC:BW.
So one day about a week ago I go on to ICCUP and download the required files and install them, make an account. I play exactly three games as protoss.
Game 1 - I feel blind. Fog of War doesn't show the map and since I never really played BW(except the campaign) I have zero familiarity with these maps and can't find my opponent. He proceeds to scout me while I keep searching the map for him. I eventually macro up what I think is a decent force after fast expanding. I get destroyed by a siege line and mines. I did have fun though.
Game 2 - Again having trouble finding my enemy but this time I get lucky and find his nat quickly and decide to forge FE. I get my nat up and running and feel like such a baller. 5 mins later he destroys me with hydras and I will retarded again b/c I couldn't figure out the tech for reavers fast enough. Still was a fun game.
Game 3 - I fast expand vs terran which when I think back is prob a bad idea. He drops vultures in my mineral line and my economy gets destroyed. I manage to hold it off but he sieges my choke in front of my nat while harrassing with vultures. I GG out.
That was my ICCUP experience. I had a good time but overall I don't think I will try it again. Just wanted to share my experience with you guys since the OP nailed me and I'm sure many other like me who ventured into ICCUP or BW and got absolutely destroyed or discouraged in some way shape or form. I think the game is still a way better spectator sport and as such will continue to watch all the OSL/MSL stuff(as long as it continues *fingers crossed*)
This post is everything wrong with casual gamers =(. You play 3 games, have fun, but still won't continue to try to learn how to play properly just because you kept losing.
I'm not calling you out or anything, but seriously, how can anyone expect to be pwning n00bz the second you decide to start playing a game?
Baller analogy: You enjoy watching/reading about chess, but haven't played seriously before and played a bit casually as a child. You decide to have some fun so you go to your city's chess organization and go to a drop-in session where the majority of players drop by every week to play maybe 5 games. You try some things you've seen the pros do, and it does feel pretty cool to be using similar openings.
You end up losing 3 straight games against these regular players, but you did have fun. However, you decide not to go back because it was too discouraging not to win a single game or even come close.
Now imagine instead of a chess club it was ICCUP, and instead of playing chess you were playing Starcraft.
=(.
I'm sorry I didn't enjoy it either.
I wouldn't call myself a "casual gamer" though. I played wc3 for like 7 years, Ladder/DotA. I was a CS player as well for about 6 years(played in cal b4 it got corrupt). I was just presenting my dilemma and saying I thought it was harder for people who join games after they are established(in my case 12 years later) b/c people have been playing for years before you that gap is often hard to close.
Since I started playing SC2 when it came out in beta I don't feel like I'm at as big of a disadvantage compared to BW players(even though I am still b/c my macro isn't as polished).
I argued before in the Sc2 forum that the killing of BW would mean the death of Sc2 as well, and that it would be in Blizzard's best interest to promote both. I think you've stated very well one of the key points of that argument.
If video games are to be taken seriously as actual esports, and take hold in the general public, than they must not be seen as five-ten year fads that will burn out with the introduction of a sequel.
all i have to say that in the gsl only the EXBW PLAYERS are good , and are roadkilling everyone else, so if you where good at bw u will at sc2 also( cause sc2 it's a lot more easy , it's for ppl with one hand ) , but bw is much more then sc2 , in every aspect u can think , even if i'm not that good at bw i stay with it, and about iccup it's not right u need 5-10 minutes for a game , i can find at any time a game in 1,2 minutes
There is no need to argue against the morons who wish BW die. It is just obvious that they post about it in every threads to inject that idea to people's heads so that even the hardcore BW fans become skeptical and because of that BW will die. They are playing the goddamn mind game and lot of people are falling for it.
The best response to those silly stupid posts is not logic, but just hopes. Don't bash SC2 because it just shows that they succeeded to make you frustrated. They want to sway your mind from BW, the best way to counter it is to show that such task is not possible.
You just have to show them that you believe in BW as much as the pope believes in god, post that raises people's hope and belief in BW is more important than countless arguments to prove the BW haters wrong. IMO, posts like these are much more effective than countering their arguments :
"BW cannot die, it has public support and government support, whoever want BW dead sucks" "People retire here and there every years, everything is just normal, waiting for the next Proleague" "BW is too big it cannot die, all the effort to make it die is just a waste" "The last events did 0.001 damage to BW, it still has 999.999 HP, PL/OSL/MSL continue as always, everything is normal, there is no need to worry about it". "BW dying is just a rumor spread by BW haters who want it dead, BW is as strong as ever ! It will deliver more and more exciting games next season, long live BW !!!"
If we, as BW fans, show absolute belief in BW, BW haters will just realize that their plan to destroy BW popularity sucks, and they will eventually stop posting about BW's death, everything will be back to normal. And to those that are trying to kill BW by making those posts, you suck.
On September 21 2010 00:11 tree.hugger wrote: I argued before in the Sc2 forum that the killing of BW would mean the death of Sc2 as well
I'd prob agree. Tho in the end, both games will have made the company millions and so be it. And I don't think BWar has brought that much money in these past few years other than the Walmart shopper buying BChest or the few new recruits? The introduction of "no-cd" patch 1.15.2 however, and the ease of e-installations, surely had to see substantial gains (timing of a sequel announcement didn't hurt either).
WoW (never played) on the other hand is from what I've read, the goose that lays golden eggs. SC2 is a chance to make some money for sure, but video games and blockbuster movies seem to have merged as one these days. The marketing sure is identical: Advertise the crap out of it to make millions on release, sell a sequel and then reap in the royalties (shelf-life age). Maybe the future holds some Science Fiction based MMORG for Starcraft and another big cash cow haha!
Whatever the case, SCBWar has already reached CULT status years ago. Once you reach cult status, the game will ALWAYS be here with some sort of pulse. PPl are still religiously going to the Rocky Horror picture show as well as buying Caddyshack as an example. Strange analogy.. sorry, but not too far off.
Myself, I just hope to continue to see 3rd party software such as BWChart, ChaosLauncher, BWAPI, and even things like resolution expander or simple modding tools like Firegraft continue to be developed. SCraft would seem to benefit from some minor tweaks/fixes without building a "new" game. The ultimate of course would be a gosu add-on/mod that enhanced the Scraft experience such as was the case with CounterStrike etc. How sweet would that be?
On September 20 2010 21:44 PJA wrote: BW is dead, the most you could possibly hope to do is delay SC2's rise.
I don't understand why anyone seriously wants BW to remain dominant when it rewards physical dexterity so much more than actual intelligent play and thought.
The opposite can simply not happen in any real-time game, ever, unless it's so slow that everyone can have 100% perfect mechanics all the time.
Very bad argument there sir.
And BW ain't dead until PL/OSL/MSL are cancelled.
well basicly they are all canceld beside the OSL... but they still continue
This is really good post with some smart points made. All i can say is my opinion and it is basically about three things (money, money, money):
1 - Everything that makes SC2 very succesful is money. If there were still some money involved in tournaments in BW, it would definately had no problem surviving. Every tournament became SC2 oriented, because it has bigger hype and more people interested in it, especially young people - so it makes sense to throw tournaments oriented to it.
2 - BW is just too hard and frustrating to play competitively, so people look for something easier with ultimate goal of making money (speaking about bw foreign elite). When BW elite players left for SC2, the whole community got hit hard.
3 - Blizzard wants to make money and does everything to make as much as possible, even if it means killing korean BW pro-scene.
I wish that both games could co-exist with great communities involved together with money tournaments thrown in both, not having to bash at each other. Still i am sad that Sc2 has taken away foreign BW tournaments. Thinking about TSL1,2 and the great moments we all had with it not needing anything like the sequel. Well money moves the world ...
Thank you for doing this so I can just start referring people who have no idea what they're talking about instead of having to type up like 2 pages every time one pops up.
In response to people saying they wouldn't try iCCup against because of difficulty, it looks like most of the low players left and it ended up being the majority of the population. The remaining 2-3k people that cycle being online there are mostly in the Cs nowadays. Its very difficult to gauge where you actually are because now the new "D+" means you know how to micro/macro, BO, avoid harass, and you're starting to understand how to control the flow of the game. The old D/D+ was more about learning what a BO was and how to follow it. That description of the new D+ would've fit the old C-/C/C+ range.
I could see how this extreme difficulty curve can be discouraging, but then why try to help SC2 people try SCBW if they're just going to go "well that's retarded-hard" and quit after 3 games?
Of course that people will prefer "the easier game" rather than "the harder game". Its just how we men are. It is unrealistic to expect that anyone will start playing bw instead of SC2. SC2 may be much worse from BW as a rts game, but it is extremely fun to play. My only hope lies in Korea, where bw is not just a pc game.
On September 20 2010 22:38 ZeaL. wrote: Being a person that plays SC2 daily but still stayed up for the last OSL/MSL finals I have to say that "Avoid StarCraft 2 bashing" could use a lot more work. On a lot of boards, especially BW general, anytime SC2 comes up in a discussion someone just has to say "fuck sc2" or some retarded thing like that. That hostility would probably discourage newer sc2 players or even older bw players that play sc2 from getting involved or contributing. When someone posts something uninformed about the bw proscene someone just HAS to go and point out that their date joined is post 2009 and say something like "lol newbs should stfu before they post anything". How is the scene supposed to grow when the people who comprise the scene are elitist dicks that shut off their community from newbies? I noticed the mods have become a lot more aggressive with respect to banning flagrant sc2 flaming but it still pops up quite frequently.
i think the only reason people have anything against sc2 is that it is s precursser to all of these recent negative events in the BW scene. At least, that's how I feel. I really just don't want to see the BW scene fall apart because I have followed it for so long.
I dunno really, your writeup is very good but honestly most examples given were community-feelings. But here we are dealing with a game wich has gone beyond "game". And thus this is the first time a company is trying to actively kill it's own old game.
Besides that most games don't have sequels that come out +10 years later. Going from Halo1, 2 to 3 was much a much less shocking change than from BW to SC2.
Everyone sticking to BW says the same shit all the time: BW is hard, SC2 is easy, and all the people who play SC2 just want to play an easier game.
This is like elitist go players saying go is hard, chess is easy, and if you really wanted to play a difficult game, play go. Nobody will ever reach the skill cap in either game, so it's ridiculous to call one "easy" and one "hard." Yes, it's hard to make your units even respond in a reasonable way in BW compared to SC2, but that has nothing to do with which game is more competitive, it only makes BW more frustrating to play as a beginner.
Clearly, BW with only being allowed to select 1 unit at a time and not being allowed to hotkey anything would be "harder" than BW in the sense that you guys are talking about, and it would raise the skill ceiling even higher, but would you really want to play it over BW? No, obviously not.
FWIW: Has anyone noticed that none of the people who switched to SC2 from BW agree with you guys? All of the top players who post on these forums who switched to SC2 pretty much agrees completely with what I am saying. Nony, InControl, etc. Are they all just newbs looking to play an easier game?
On September 21 2010 02:57 Diminotoor wrote: Thank you for doing this so I can just start referring people who have no idea what they're talking about instead of having to type up like 2 pages every time one pops up.
In response to people saying they wouldn't try iCCup against because of difficulty, it looks like most of the low players left and it ended up being the majority of the population. The remaining 2-3k people that cycle being online there are mostly in the Cs nowadays. Its very difficult to gauge where you actually are because now the new "D+" means you know how to micro/macro, BO, avoid harass, and you're starting to understand how to control the flow of the game. The old D/D+ was more about learning what a BO was and how to follow it. That description of the new D+ would've fit the old C-/C/C+ range.
I could see how this extreme difficulty curve can be discouraging, but then why try to help SC2 people try SCBW if they're just going to go "well that's retarded-hard" and quit after 3 games?
I'd love to listen to the "logic" posted in this thread when people start having a clue. Getting to D+ doesn't mean you know anything at all. I've gotten to C+ within 2 weeks every time I come back and play BW after taking year long breaks, and I don't know any modern build orders (read: I haven't read about build orders/watched pro-BW games since yellow vs boxer). I also don't understand timing attack in BW or any of the other shit you talk about. All you need to reach C+ is some half-decent macro with zerg and know how many sunkens to make to not die if T is one basing, and know when to switch from muta to hydra against P who goes sair->DT. If that's all you know, and you can dodge storms and flank, you'll get to C+.
Hell, I got to D+ between phase 1 and phase 2 of beta with P, which I played in SC2, but haven't played since I was playing hunters 3v3s in toyland in '02. I'd love to see someone who actually has skill at both BW and SC2 arguing with me, or even at least someone who has skill at BW.
EPT
) , but bw is much more then sc2 , in every aspect u can think , even if i'm not that good at bw i stay with it, and about iccup it's not right u need 5-10 minutes for a game , i can find at any time a game in 1,2 minutes
