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On September 08 2010 13:24 iLoveKT wrote: KT pls go get zero so I wont have to root against that cutie. They have HoeJJa, and YellOw is coming back. Though if Zero or Calm came by I wouldn't object.
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On September 08 2010 14:31 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 13:24 iLoveKT wrote: KT pls go get zero so I wont have to root against that cutie. They have HoeJJa, and YellOw is coming back. Though if Zero or Calm came by I wouldn't object. I doubt yellow will play unfortunately... he'll probably be like boxer :/ This season will hopefully be Hoejja's season
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On September 08 2010 14:30 Musoeun wrote: We already knew some team was thinking about disbanding. The consensus was eSTRO, since they were the team 2nd worst hit by the scandal, and hite's still OGN's team in a lot of senses so that wasn't happening.
But this is almost making me think (be afraid) that it was KHAN. I'll work through the logic later, though everybody else has already, but... eh. I'm worried now. I dearly hope it's not Khan. Not only do I like Khan a lot as a team, but also Samsung is a pretty big sponsor.
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If team D is looking to add B or G to bolster their weakest race, dosen't that mean that C is of a different race? I think that A is stars and B and C Zero and Free (which is which is unclear). F is a team with 1) a non terran ace 2)a bad coaching staff; stx (with G being kal or calm) or khan (with stork). So D is a team with a weakness at protoss or zerg and the resorces to hold another ace; either kt mbc or skt (if G is calm) or mbc alone (if G is kal or stork). so 2 posibilities A)stars/stars B)zero/free C)free/zero D)(mbc or kt or skt)/mbc E)any team besides ace and stars F)stx/(stx or khan) G)calm/(kal or stork)
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On September 08 2010 14:39 ZavikZyke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 14:31 moopie wrote:On September 08 2010 13:24 iLoveKT wrote: KT pls go get zero so I wont have to root against that cutie. They have HoeJJa, and YellOw is coming back. Though if Zero or Calm came by I wouldn't object. I doubt yellow will play unfortunately... he'll probably be like boxer :/ This season will hopefully be Hoejja's season I doubt it. Unless KT gets some new zerg Protégé, YellOw will definitely play.
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Hard to believe large corp like Samsung would be unwilling to pay stork and jangbi =P
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The truth is, whichever team it is, that team is screwed for good.
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+ Show Spoiler [Logic!] +Hard fact: A didn't make the post-season:
Since Air Force ACE is not involved with trades, that means A is one of:
Woongjin Stars Hwaseung OZ Samsung KHAN eSTRO hite sparkyz
Detail: The team is floating "two main players", at least one ace caliber, who had similar records the last two years.
eSTRO: Really (B) and hyvaa (C). hite sparkyz: Leta (B) and HoGiL (C). Hwaseung OZ: Jaedong (B) and HiyA (C). Samsung KHAN: Stork (B) and Jangbi (C). Woongjin Stars: free (B) and Guemchi (C).
Stars' ZerO and Kwanro are both tradable, but both performed much better this year than last, eliminating them from consideration in this case. Guemchi is only a borderline "main" player, but with over 30 games I'm counting him for the purposes of argument.
Since either hite or Hwaseung would essentially be committing suicide with these players leaving, and given what we know about teams' control over their players, I think we can eliminate them from the list. The same may be true of eSTRO, except for the following considerations: 1) management may consider Action to be their up-and-coming ace; 2) eSTRO was the consensus in popular opinion when it was announced a team was disbanding, so this "suicide" may not actually matter; 3) Really only emerged as an ace-caliber player last year, and is still around .500 for his career - if sold to a weak T team, eSTRO might actually be able to improve.
That leaves
eSTRO: Really (B) and hyvaa (C). Samsung KHAN: Stork (B) and Jangbi (C). Woongjin Stars: free (B) and Guemchi (C).
Obviously, the question is who needs these players? The major interested parties: D, E, F.
D is a team weak at B's race, also looking at G from team F. E is looking at picking up B and C. F is considering trading an ace G for B.
Nothing is specified about C, implying that C may be a different race than B. If this is true, then KHAN and Woongjin are not A. Then Really is B.
In this scenario, D is most likely Woongjin. F could in this case be Hwaseung OZ (HiyA) or MBCGame (Light or Sea). E in this case is one of STX, KT, or SKT, all of whom buy players somewhat regularly
Alternatively, D is STX. While they pick up players regularly, they tend to do it cheap - see Frozean last year - and Really is a huge improvement over any Terran they have without being too expensive. F in this case is probably Woongjin, who could reasonably trade either ZerO or Kwanro for Really and have a vastly improved team. E remains likely to be KT or SKT, with an outside chance that it's OZ.
I consider this to be the most likely situation. eSTRO management has been anything but stable over the years, they had issues with the match-fixing scandal, and may be more affected by Gretech than the other corporations who aren't in the esports business themselves.
We do have to consider than KHAN or Stars may be A. Ordinarily I would say that Stars are most likely, as they're both active traders and didn't have the greatest salaries before under Hanbit. Woongjin bought the team, and they've underperformed after Woongjin started paying more, so there would certainly be reason to cut salaries. On the other hand, Woongjin's had no particular coaching tensions that I know about, and free has been with Woongjin forever even with bad players and little pay, so in this case KHAN is more likely to be A.
Regardless, since free for Stork is an essentially pointless trade - they're the two best Protoss atm, differing mainly in style, we can assume KHAN and Woongjin will not be trading with each other, and apply the same considerations to both possibilities.
In either case, D is a team with a weak Protoss line. This eliminates CJ, KT, MBC (han), SKT, and STX, leaving as possibilities eSTRO, hite, OZ, and WeMade. eSTRO rarely, if ever, trades to get players, and has a potential star in Flying while Grape has also looked strong at times. Oz is an active trader, bu Anytime will be out of the Air Force soon, and Anytime/BackHo is good enough that an ace Protoss is probably unnecessary. hite does sometimes trade and also needs to rebuild, but Horang2 has developed into a go-to player this year; he's got nothing behind him, but given the usual format a 2nd Terran or a good Zerg would seem to be the biggest priority for them.
So the strongest candidate is probably WeMade: they went out last year and got Midas, and are one really good Protoss away from greatness. Let's call WeMade D.
E is probably SKT. I mean, who else just "recruits" players all the time? And neither Bisu nor BeSt are really really solid atm. But E is not the biggest concern.
F is the tricky one. In this scenario, they have an ace Protoss, but are willing to trade him to get another one. STX could fit here, as Calm is their major ace but Kal still plays an ace role; SKT is a possibility if they're willing to give up Bisu for, say, Stork. It pretty much has to be one of these two: Woongjin and KHAN trading makes no sense at all, as mentioned above; CJ. MBC, and WeMade all have a good Protoss, but not an ace (and besides, I'm guessing here that WeMade is D); OZ, hite, eSTRO, don't have Protoss aces by any stretch of the imagination. KT has two ace-caliber Protoss, but neither plays an ace role.
Of the two, I'd say the most likely F is STX: Kal has a bad tendency to lose ace games, making either Stork or free just that little bit of an upgrade that could get them to a grand final. Meanwhile, since Kal is just that little bit worse, A might be willing to do it to reduce the salary. (Note: I thought Kal had a pretty good salary by progamer standards, so maybe this is nonsense.)
Musoeun's Most Likely Scenario:
Team A: eSTRO Player B: Really Player C: hyvaa Team D: Woongjin Stars Team E: STX or SKT, possibly KT or OZ Team F: MBCGame; possibly Hwaseung OZ; (unlikely) WeMade. Player G: Light/Sea; HiyA; Mind
Alternative Details: A, B, C, F, G the same Team D: STX SouL Team E: SKT, OZ
The Other Main Scenario Team A: Samsung KHAN OR Woongjin Stars Player B: Stork; free Player C: Jangbi; Guemchi Team D: WeMade Fox Team E: SKT, OZ, KT - the big spenders Team F: STX SouL Player G: Kal
EDIT: And now I read the comments carefully and notice that maybe B/G aren't the same race after all. Well I don't care enough to spend another hour revising this.
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I think it wasn't clarified, and it sounds ambiguous in English, so maybe some Korean can clarify - does this:On September 07 2010 14:52 Milkis wrote: These two players have gotten similar records in both 08-09 season and 09-10 season mean that the players had similar records to each other, and not necessarily one season was similar to another, or the other way around, similar seasons, but different for each player? I thought it's the former, but I see some people take this as the latter.
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Team A could be Oz. I know Jaedong is loyal to oz (not wanting to leave in FA) but everything else fits. Oz didn't make the playoffs with Jaedong and Hiya having similar individual performances in each of the last 2 seasons. Oz proved they are pretty cheap with the salaries (Jaedong getting that pretty low contract for what he's really worth last season). Coach Cho could be manager H - the timing of his resignation is about right. The "going home to rest" fits pretty well with the short interview he did. If I remember right he thought Jaedong should have been offered more money last season (this could be wrong though - just the way I remember it) which would fit in with arguing against the salary cuts.
The only part that doesn't really seem to fit would be Jaedong looking to move to another team. Who knows though - he looked substantially pissed off at teammates (especially Killer) at points this season. Also being low balled to just get his salary cut further may have been the straw to break the camels back. I don't have time to try to guess at the whole scenario right now - maybe I'll take a stab at it tonight if I remember.
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Jaedong was a combined 78-34 while Hiya was 42-35 how are those similar?
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On September 09 2010 04:25 hacklebeast wrote: Jaedong was a combined 78-34 while Hiya was 42-35 how are those similar?
There are two ways of interpreting it. The first is the 2 players performed similar to eachother in a given season. The other is too compare the results of the players results from the two seasons; comparing jaedongs 08-09 to 09-10 and hiya's 08-09 to 09-10. It doesn't mean the same players were similar to eachother - they were just similar to their previous year. That's interpretation I used.
On September 09 2010 02:23 ZBiR wrote:I think it wasn't clarified, and it sounds ambiguous in English, so maybe some Korean can clarify - does this: Show nested quote +On September 07 2010 14:52 Milkis wrote: These two players have gotten similar records in both 08-09 season and 09-10 season mean that the players had similar records to each other, and not necessarily one season was similar to another, or the other way around, similar seasons, but different for each player? I thought it's the former, but I see some people take this as the latter.
Basically what Zbir said. The way it is currently stated could be interpreted two ways.
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I cant even decide whats better..Oz with JD and Stork...or JD moving to another team...
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5003 Posts
On September 09 2010 04:32 789 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 04:25 hacklebeast wrote: Jaedong was a combined 78-34 while Hiya was 42-35 how are those similar? There are two ways of interpreting it. The first is the 2 players performed similar to eachother in a given season. The other is too compare the results of the players results from the two seasons; comparing jaedongs 08-09 to 09-10 and hiya's 08-09 to 09-10. It doesn't mean the same players were similar to eachother - they were just similar to their previous year. That's interpretation I used. Show nested quote +On September 09 2010 02:23 ZBiR wrote:I think it wasn't clarified, and it sounds ambiguous in English, so maybe some Korean can clarify - does this: On September 07 2010 14:52 Milkis wrote: These two players have gotten similar records in both 08-09 season and 09-10 season mean that the players had similar records to each other, and not necessarily one season was similar to another, or the other way around, similar seasons, but different for each player? I thought it's the former, but I see some people take this as the latter. Basically what Zbir said. The way it is currently stated could be interpreted two ways.
it's the latter interpretation. let me rephrase it i guess
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Oh the logic. So interesting. I want to see how this ends up. If stork, jangbi, and january leaves khan, and with fbh leaving for military service, it'll be pointless to watch khan anymore.
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Further refinement. I believe I have demonstrated that the most likely candidates are one of:
A. Samsung KHAN B. Stork C. Jangbi A. eSTRO B. Really C. hyvaa
+ Show Spoiler [Justification Review] +A was a non-playoff team, and obviously not ace. B and C each have had similar records for their last two seasons. B is an ace-class player. This gives the possibilities:
A. eSTRO B. Really C. hyvaa A hite sparkyz B. Leta C. HoGiL A. Hwaseung OZ B. Jaedong C. HiyA A. Samsung KHAN B. Stork C. Jangbi A. Woongjin Stars B. free C. Guemchi
Hwaseung is by far the least likely, unless - which has not even begun to be rumored - the team is disbanding. As one of the superstars of the game, Jaedong has to be good for advertising.publicity, so I consider it very unlikely that the team is being disbanded or even sold. So I think we can assume not Hwaseung.
hite sparkyz, while hit hard by the match-fixing scandal and now branded as hite, is still owned by OGN. Depending on OGN's SC2 arrangements, it might make sense for sparkyz to be disbanding to make room for an SC2 team, but there has been no announcement of any SC2 proleague, so this is very unlikely as well - unless there is a 100% transfer to SC2, OGN will probably keep the team, and hite is also invested in other esports if I remember correctly.
Woongjin Stars would have definite reason to be looking to revamp the team. However, getting rid of free - arguably the top Protoss over the last months - doesn't make much sense unless they could get Flash, Jaedong, or Leta - no. Guemchi also isn't great trade-bait: WL bonjwa or no, he's a .500 player overall in PL, in the historically weakest race.
Samsung KHAN is clearly in some flux, and has been ever since January's marriage. If January is resigning/has resigned, it would not be surprising to see Stork and Jangbi - who have the necessary cred to do it - leaving, especially if Samsung doesn't want to pay. On the other hand, KHAN has been together so long, and so rarely trades, that this would be a radical departure from the norm.
eSTRO has had all sorts of issues. They've had talent but not really performed. They were also hit hard by the scandal. They've had coaching issues in the past. If management is looking to revamp the team, Really and hyvaa are the last "big names" (as much as that applies) from the pre-scandal era, and with Really being a Terran near-ace, they could probably get solid compensation for him from a Terran-weak team, of which there are several. This all makes them the most likely.
I therefore rank the scenarios for A/B/C as:
1. A. eSTRO B. Really C. hyvaa 2. Samsung KHAN B. Stork C. Jangbi --- 3. A. Woongjin Stars B. free C. Guemchi --- --- 4. A. hite sparkyz B. Leta C. HoGiL --- --- --- 5. A. Hwaseung OZ B. Jaedong C. HiyA
"---"-breaks indicate that these are getting progressively less and less probable.
The key to the riddle, I think, is Team F with Player G. G is an "ace" or main player, whom F is considering trading for B, also an ace player. I can envision the following scenarios:
I. F has multiple aces, and is looking to trade one to get a better racial balance. II. F has a low-paid ace, and is willing to pay a little more for a better player, while A is cutting budget. This involves speculating on financial information I don't have, so I'm going to ignore it and assume Scenario I is the case.
Scenario I. Teams that qualify for consideration as F in this scenario are: MBCGame HERO (Hyun(?), Light, Sea); Samsung KHAN (great, Jangbi, Stork); WeMade Fox (BaBy, Midas, RorO); Woongjin Stars (free, Kwanro, ZerO)
+ Show Spoiler [Quick Note] +I'm rejecting the other teams as follows: CJ Entus - only one ace, EffOrt. Neither sKyHigh nor Movie are true ace players, both tending towards matchup-specialist roles. Snow doesn't have enough history yet. eSTRO - only one ace, Really. Action may be getting close, but hasn't challenged Really's hold yet. hite sparkyz - only one ace, Leta. Any questions? Hwaseung OZ - two ace-caliber players, but with a race split (Z/T) and no third. KT Rolster - three ace-caliber players (Flash, Stats, Violet) but neither Stats nor Violet are established enough for a sensible KT to want to trade either. If they were going to, they'd want a Z ace, meaning trading partners would be Woongjin, STX, or *maybe* KHAN, all of whom already have P aces. SK Telecom T1 - has three ace-caliber players, but would not be trading for a P or T ace. STX SouL - could use a Terran star to compliment Calm and Kal, but none of the scenarios make sense: Kal for Stork is equal; Calm for Stork gives STX fewer racial options; Kal or Calm for Really is clearly a downgrade.
We can classify these in two groups:
I.A: Would Trade for Really - Samsung KHAN. With firebathero leaving for ACE, and neither Turn nor Miracle looking like the answer, Stork for Really would actually make sense, especially if there's a new manager and/or Samsung is being cheap. - Woongjin Stars. While their double-Zerg ace threat with Kwanro and ZerO is pretty sweet, trading off Kwanro (whom they acquired from CJ in the first place) for a good Terran, which they desperately need, makes an amazing amount of sense.
I.B: Would Trade for Stork - MBCGame HERO. Again, Light-Sea is a nice dual-threat, but neither is either a real threat in individual leagues or a truly clutch ace player. Stork would provide both racial diversity - although han's coming along nicely - and give Samsung a good Terran. - WeMade FOX. Despite Pure's recent individual league success, he's proved repeatedly that he's not a solid Proleague player; LuCifer, acquired from KT, isn't amazing either. Trading either BaBy, who's never really become a steady player yet, or Midas, who was a transfer, to KHAN for Stork would make a lot of sense as well, since it would also give KHAN a good Terran.
All four of these scenarios make a certain amount of sense. Based on what we've seen, I don't think MBC is actually in the running: han has played too well, and MBC's coach seems, like old-style KHAN, to not really want to trade.
Two of theother scenarios involve KHAN trading Stork for a Terran player:
F. KHAN B. Really G. Stork F. Woongjin B. Really G. Kwanro/ZerO F. WeMade Fox B. Stork G. Midas/BaBy
The WeMade option makes the most sense from both team's point of view. WeMade made the playoffs this year with the addition of Midas; adding an ace-level Protoss would put them in contention for a top spot. They've displayed willingness to do what they have to, so this isn't beyond them. Meanwhile - have I said this before? - Samsung does really need a good Terran.
+ Show Spoiler [What About the Other Options?] +The KHAN option only makes sense as a "statement" move by eSTRO/IEG. While it would vastly improve their team - eSTRO would automatically become a contender - and the trade would also help KHAN, who don't have a good Terran, making the trade to acquire Stork in today's esports atmosphere would essentially be a big FU to Blizzard, saying that IEG is determined to stick with BW. Since IEG has never displayed that sort of go-get-'em attitude, I find this strikingly improbable.
The Woongjin option makes the most sense from Woongjin's point of view, but not so much from eSTRO's: even assuming Action becomes an ace player, dual-Zerg is nice but their present balance is better. On the other hand, both Kwanro and ZerO have been better overall than Really, so eSTRO might be willing to trade for a better player while Woongjin would accept a slightly worse one just to have a good Terran. I still think it feels unlikely.
So I am going to postulate the following configuration:
A. Samsung KHAN B. Stork C. Jangbi F. WeMade Fox G. BaBy
We also have D and E to identify. D in this scenario is looking at Stork and BaBy. E is looking at Stork and Jangbi.
Candidates for D - bringing in two ace players, different races, argues for a rebuilding team
eSTRO. I don't think eSTRO's management actually likes the idea of buying players enough to do it, but they really, really need an actual ace player. hite sparkyz. After the scandal, they need far more work than any other team to compete. Leta gives them an ace; if they brought in even one of these two, Horang2 and HoGiL are solid complimentary players that would make them truly scary. STX SouL. They keep making the playoffs, but they haven't succeeded yet. Management is willing to spend money, witness July, Frozean. They need a good Terran; BaBy (or Midas) would fit the bill nicely. Stork would compliment Kal amazingly - with Shuttle and that other dude, STX could suddenly pull an inverted-WeMade, go all-Protoss and win. Again, bringing in even one of these players would be a huge boost.
Candidates for E - looking at two Protoss argues for a team with a bad Protoss line
eSTRO. If they keep Really, either Stork or Jangbi would boost eSTRO into position as a solid contender. Both, and I'd have to root for eSTRO instead of KHAN, the team would be so awesome. Hwaseung OZ. Their only decent Protoss, BackHo, has injury issues and was never fantastic. Anytime will be back, but after ACE is no longer the ace player he was.
I really really think eSTRO is not in the running in all this trade talk: while they ought to be, given their team, IEG's never been proactive in managing the team, and I don't think they're going to start now that SC2 is in the equation. That reduces D and E down quickly, so we're left with the following identification:
A. Samsung KHAN B. Stork C. Jangbi D. STX SouL E. Hwaseung OZ F. WeMade Fox G. BaBy H. January
The rest is highly speculative, but I'll take some wild guesses.
I. SK Telecom T1 or KT Rolster - WeMade wants a Protoss coach to go with their new players. J. (some coach from SKT/KTR) K and L - no idea.
+ Show Spoiler [The Other Option, eSTRO] +A. eSTRO B. Really C. hyvaa D. STX SouL E. KT Rolster F. Woongjin Stars G. ZerO
How I filled in D and E: who would want Really and hyvaa, who would want Really and ZerO? In either case you're looking at getting a Z/T combo, although hyvaa's a 2nd-stringer and ZerO's an ace. I would say Samsung KHAN could use these players the most, although with great establishing himself they're more likely to look at hyvaa than pay ZerO. STX is another possibility, since they need a Terran, and they may be considering strengthening their Zerg line since neither hero nor July are playing at a high level consistently (and July is rumored to be switching to SC2). They also have management willing to spend money, making them the most probable option.
E, in this scenario trying to get Really and ZerO, almost has to be one of the big spenders - KT Rolster or SK Telecom T1 - since most teams already have either a strong T or strong Z line. I lean towards KT, if only because ZerO's on good terms with Flash.
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i can totally see woongjin giving kwanro away. just hope he doesnt end up with estro or hite or any sucky team. kwanro to kt would be awesome!
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All this speculation... I'm going to laugh when just like last year in FA, nothing happens.
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that is the most likely outcome, but speculation is fun!
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